> Be me. > be an anarchist. > prefers free markets/capitalism

Antifa are neither anarchists nor are they libertarian.

>>133577625
I don't like them personally Becuase of their violent tactics against Individuals who have nothing to do with what they're "fighting".

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>>133577455
All forms of anarchism are cancer. The only barely acceptable one is maybe mutualism.

>>133577455
>capitalism
>compatible with anarchism

http://www.infoshop.org/AnarchistFAQSectionF

>>133579265
Free markets and capitalism are the same things By definition.

>>133579413
Markets are for faggots
Anarcho-Buccaneerism FTW.

>>133579265
This isn't convincing.

>ancap isn't anarchist because I said so and "nuanced political theory"
This is not an argument. Do not post that again.

>>133579413
They are not.

Markets are a means of exchange. Capitalism is a economic system in which the means of production are owned privately and run for profit, and in which which labor is the most common form of workplace relation.

Markets are a part of capitalism but not vice versa. Look into mutualism and left-wing market anarchism for market based anarchist ideas.

>>133579692
To Have a (free)market the means Must be owned Privately preferably By entrepreneurs.

>>133579692
maybe Look Into Agorism.

>>133579692
Capitalism is Just the exchange of Money or the equivalent to a product or service.

>>133579691
Read the faq.

Anarchism has never just been about getting rid of the state, but all coercive hierarchy. The state and capitalism are two forms of coercive hierarchy that anarchists want to abolish.

>>133579821
What do you mean by property?

Anarchists don't oppose property based upon occupancy and use, but they oppose absentee ownership (what they call private property).

>>133580165
Yeah I kept reading.

>ancap can't be anarchist because not equality
What the fuck does equality have to do with anarchism? That article is bad and you should feel bad for posting it, do not post shit about anarchy written by neomarxists.

>>133579821
A market (in the capitalistic sense) by it's very nature can't be free. The whole point of a market is to centralize trade. In a capitalistic society there are scant few opportunities to obtain the necessities of life via trade outside of the market. Anywhere a private monopoly hasn't de facto centralized trading there are laws forcing you to follow certain market rules. Like for example land ownership/division/zoning is all handled by public order. There's a fuck load of unoccupied land out there and you can't just go and take it. You are forced to go through the market.

The phrase "Free market" is an oxymoron. Yes, one market can be "freer" than another. But that necessarily makes it less of a market.

>>133580257
Capitalism doesn't have to Have to have a hierarchy. Only a series of direction read spooner.

>>133579192
Mutualism is essentially anarchist third position economics

>>133580424
In a free market capitalism Monopolies can't exist because of competition and again I'm a synthesis anarchist I just prefer capitalism to collective ideals.

>>133577455

>anarchist

Strike one.

>believes commies can coexist peacefully with non-commies

Strike two.

>no helicopters

Sheeeeeeeeit, that's the third one.

>>133580720
I never said peacefully if they attack Non-Commies fight back.

>>133580698
If it looks like a monopoly, and acts like a monopoly it is a monopoly. A de facto monopoly is always inevitable in an unregulated market. Not all things are created equal. One business owner will always be better at what he does, or perhaps just luckier than others. At which point the only thing that will stop him from forming a monopoly de facto is coercion either by the state or moral coercion perhaps.

I'm not gonna lie, synicalism is looking like the better method of distribution and production. The workers should own the entire profits to their labour. Having middle men who do nothing and get rich for simply owning the company but not operating it is inefficient.

Also a fully an-cap style market requires abolition of the concept of intellectual property. Otherwise it will get jewed to death.

>>133580903
But something that Looks and acts Like a monopoly can't exist in free market capitalism because of competition.

>>133581090
I agree with that Idea But im not an ancap im closer to an agorist.

>>133581092
Sure it can. If your business is better you'll eventually beat out the competition. And when one business beats another it doesn't just disappear, it ends up getting bought out by the winning competitor. Eventually if your business is the best in a certain section of the market you will own everything. And your deeper pockets will grant you access to a level of "economy of scale" which makes new competitors unable to compete.

my question to anarchists:

If anarchy is just everyone doing the fuck they want and governing themselves, what if everyone decided on creating nations and governments because it was what they wanted?

Also since there is no law under anarchy, doesn't that mean forming a government is not illegal?

I mean... it's not even autism... it's just straight up brain death...

>>133580903
>One business owner will always be better at what he does, or perhaps just luckier than others
>better
>luckier
Or perhaps, a fucking cheating criminal who uses underhand tactics like bribery, blackmail, slander, litigation, intimidation, etc

>>133579883
Agorism is the only left leaning economic theory I find palatable. I don't see counter economics bringing down the behemoth but it's nice to participate in black markets. Craigslist, yard sales, Amish markets and basic voluntary exchange without an overlord's hand in your face is pretty appealing.

>>133579692
>Capitalism is a economic system in which the means of production blah blah blah...
Take marx's cock out of your mouth for half a sec and realize that in a free market you can run your business however the fuck you want. You can be capitalist, socialist, for-profit, non-profit, etc. In America we have the whole spectrum. The only issue we have currently is overregulation that is preventing people from doing just that.

>>133581262
Infringing On someone else's Business By "beating Them Out" Violates the Non aggression principal.

>>133581262
This is basically what we are already seeing right now in the West, especially in North America. When I was a kid the only things you would shop for at a big name store were groceries and clothing. Hardware, novelties, etc, were less "evolved" markets. But that's different now. Pretty much all shopping is done via big name stores now in North America. There is no more little guy. There is no more small business other than franchises, the ones that aren't franchises never seem to last more than a year. And now the big competitors are eating each other alive.

>>133577455
>flag
>prefers free market
Nice try, faggot.

>>133581472
>what is competition

>>133581303
also, an agorist can revolt aginst teh state because the state has shown force.

>>133581472
The NAP is such a laughably vapid concept.

>>133581581
They dont have a synthesis or agorist flag.

>>133581616
How? it narrows down any crime to the use of force violence and fraud.

>>133581293
Anarchy isn't just doing whatever the fuck u want, nor does anarchy mean the absence of law, I mean... this is not even ignorance... it's just straight up brain death

>>133581763
How is competition in business considered violent? And obviously fraud is fraud and is illegal.

>>133581668
IMHO pirate flag is the best. High seas piracy is the only form of organized anarchism which fully demonstrates an understanding of the abstractness behind laws and markets and all that shit.

>>133581850
Its a Use of force.

javascript:quote('133580424');
The hotelling model shows how markets will form naturally. Up your game theory, son.

>>133581937
What force? The force of making a better product? The force of advertising?

>>133581899
True.

>>133577455
Freedom is great. To maintain it requires white men to agree upon those very few freedoms that all must be willing to defend with their respective lives.

I'm not willing to defend ur "libertine desire" to blow niggers.

Depending on circumstances, I might be willing to defend ur right to free speech with limits, or ur right to self determination and governance. I would likely defend ur right to bear arms, or practice Christianity - even as I do not. But after that, it becomes more difficult to commit at the level required.

>>133581944
Are we scripting anon? Be honest...

>>133581332
Capitalist markets are inherently competitive, you can't literally do whatever you want because most things won't work.

That's like saying warfare is a free-market, you can fight with swords if you really wanted! But that strategy won't work, you'll get rekt by people using modern military tactics.
Regulation is generally in place to try and reduce how much you get rekt, to stop monopolies from just taking control.
Without regulation the strongest business would beat the rest and take control, there is a lack of freedom because you either do it the most efficient way or you lose to those who do.
And what the anon said has nothing to do with Marx and communism, just because he mentioned means of production.
You're retarded.

>>133582099
>Guns beating swords
Clearly you've never played Final Fantasy.

>>133581986
Advertising that uses psychological techniques to persuade someone to buy they product and If they sabotaging or Intentionally Painting the competition in a bad light is also force.

>>133582099
And yet not-for-profit businesses exist, as well as for-profit ones. Monopolies are actually created from overregulation, not from natural market competition. And don't give me your shit about marx - that line is old as shit and I hear it all the time.

Anyways, thanks for the convo guys I have to hit the hay. Not often you can have a reasonably constructive discussion about anarchism and shit on here.

>>133580698
Monopolies will exist but not forever as a large business chasing profit or economies of scale will eventually collapse under their own bureaucracy or will not be able to swiftly adapt to market innovations. You can have a period where innovation has not been brought to market.

>>133582204
Oh please - the "advertising is rape" argument isn't even an argument. You guys are weak tonight.

>>133577625
what does the strayan mean by this

>>133582386
i didnt say Its rape i said it was force.

>>133582378
If Monopolies arise the people are free to tear them down.

>>133582514
I was being facetious - you know what I mean because rape is force. And advertising is certainly not.

>>133582282
Non-profit businesses exist in regulated modern capitalist markets. They don't exist outside of them, the American market has regulation, but in non-regulated markets, monopolies form very quickly, the big guy never looks favourably on the little guys and will do his best to eat them.
You can see this in criminal trades. Big organisations only tolerate each other so long as a war isn't profitable, if one get's an advantage over the other it will use that to win a war and weaken or devour the other.
Monopolies only exist in regulated markets when your regulation is shit at dealing with them. For example the USA.
And what the fuck are you going on about with Marx? You were the one to bring him up, you're the one that's retarded and thinks every mention of the means of production is Marxist theory.

>>133582618
I said advertising using Psychological techniques are force Not advertising in general.

>>133579265
> Can you please make your shitty website get to the fucking point? I don't have 64 hours to read about some edgy teenagers ranting about capitalism.

>>133582636
You literally cannot think outside of your "big business is evil" box, even if you are right about a lot of points.

>>133582723
Like what? I'm not aware of any. Subliminals are fake bullshit. As is most of the stuff you've been taught to be afraid of.

>>133582581
except almost 98% of all monopolies are created by states the rest 2% are short-lived monopolies who invented some new shit and now have a monopoly on this new product

>>133582767
But Big Business is Mostly evil I.e banking institutions like the fed and Big pharma aswell as the manufacturing sweat shops for many electronic companies.

>>133582581
Damn right they are. That's why a monopoly will not actually max pi. They take into account elasticity of demand for long term returns. Otherwise they would price gouge to shit.

>>133582910
I mean, you're not wrong. But regulation is not the way to handle them, clearly - we have a shit ton and they are still a problem. If people had some fucking balls, they would STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS AND SERVICES.

>>133582862
many advertising companies make the consumer think they're lives will be better or happier if they Buy they're product But it wont. false advertising.

>>133582767
>I know you're right but you disagree with me so I have to insult you.
Big business isn't automatically evil. I'm just trying to say that monopolies aren't a result of regulation, they're reduced by good regulation.

>>133582890
Quite hilariously the "natural monopolies" are not natural but state mandated. Silly statists and their word fuckery.

>>133583083
i dont think the state should regulate them But the people by cyber attacks,protest and Boycotts.

>>133583137
And I'm saying you are absolutely wrong about that.

>>133582910
sweatshops exist because poor countries with low technology exist

and the best way to fight poverty is with
capitalism

>>133583180
Yes, exactly. I realize that boycotting and whatnot is easier said than done, but it does work. Better than regulation, by far.

>>133582498
If you propose more laws instead of less, you are objectively over the halfway point in the spectrum. Antifa are literally left wing extremist, moderate authoritarians. They're only a few steps less authoritarian than Stalinist Russia.

>>133583251
i agree.

>>133583137
Right. Regulation being "shifting consumer demand away from said business by market innovation." You show me a regulation and i'll show you a deep pocketed fuckstick who buys their way around it.

>>133583317
Antifa uses saul alinsky tactics. They are precisely fascist, but call others fascist. Just like "russia collusion."

>>133583599
I've noticed this more and more, the left is almost puritanical in their usage of that Alinsky rule almost everything they do seems to be in some way hypocritical.

>>133580165
By your logic whoever has the biggest guns wins, which is also coercive hierarchy.

>>133583741
It's effective, sadly. If you accuse your opponent of exactly what you are, when they finally discover that its actually you who are the accused, the accusation sounds artificial by then.

>>133580424
You cant pretend to argue against capitalism and then bring up a bunch of government socialist shit.