Abortion? Arguments for: >Bodily Autonomy >Freedom of

Abortion violates the NAP.

>>132964129
Which NAP?

>>132963932
Abortion stops other races from reproducing, but it also encourages moral degeneration within our own race.

>>132963932
The welfare argument's a load of shit while western nations keep sending welfare bux to the third world to pay for their kids too

>>132964346
I don't think teens look at sex as "Hey, if I knock you up we can just go and get an abortion". The more we educate teens about safe sex practices, hygiene, and disease, the more capable they will be towards making smart decisions.

>>132964516
Stopping welfare in one sport is better than not stopping it at all.

i have a video of that girl fingering herself in schoolgirl uniform

>>132963932
>I believe abortions clinics should be readily available and tax payer funded.
OK, but, you then say:
The money saved from a one time operation dwarfs the money that would be lost on welfare payments, tax funded healthcare appointments, education... throughout the kids life.
Showing that you're fiscally conservative and that it is indeed a kids life you're trading for a drop in the tax rate.
With that established, wouldn't it make more sense to vote right wing? You still can and support abortion, but, do you? If not, than, is a tax difference (that you won't see) really justification enough to take the kids life?
>Women deserve to have the ability to control their own bodies.
OK, but, is she not consenting to give the male she sleeps w/ control over it to from the very act? I know she isn't legally, but morally?
Also, womans body - my taxes, again, not a justifiable reason.
And you have to realize unavailable doesn't mean fully illegal. If she goes out of state to have it, and then comes back, she won't be charged. So she would have control over her body just not access to a certain service in a certain jurisdiction.
Fun Note: I actually support abortion "rights" but not for any of the reason you give.

The only valid argument against is that it shouldn't be publicly funded. Personally I'm against it but I can't give a shit if someone wants to scramble their shit with their own money. It's when I'm paying 30% of my income on stupid shit like that.

>Mfw having to explain to my unemployed friend that federal tax is only 25% but state tax plus social security (that shit I'm never getting) put my at a third of my income taxed.

Fuck the fed

>>132964550
Teens don't use logic to avoid risks, full stop. Educating them will not help, first off, but the attitude you describe was actually common in my high school. If the girls left school and got married they would be better off nine times out of ten.

>>132963932
>>The fetus is a human as of conception and therefore has rights
This.
It should be an argument strong enough for someone to be against abortion. It's hard for me to understand how people can still agree with abortion knowing there's another human being they kill. Or maybe they don't see it as a human being?
https://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-week-by-week

>>132964683
I'm having a hard time comprehending what you are trying to convey.

Males give up the right to have a legal say in what happens to a fetus as they have zero repercussions, zero hardships, and zero risks involved with the pregnancy and birth. Yes, men may have a vested interest in the outcome but that doesn't trump the predicament the female is in.

>>132964346
You my friend just gave the one argument that single handedly destroys any "pros"
>Our only reason for existence is to secure white children's future
>If you're not white, you still should consider that securing the existence of your own kind is the most important thing

>>132965103
>>>The fetus is a human as of conception and therefore has rights
Nah. Not this. The fetus is not protected by laws because its not a citizen nor does it have a visa therefor the Government can't recognize its rights.

>>132965363
Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they should be kicked out.

>>132965103
Some people don't see a mish mash of cells which form into a baby as actually being one. Admittedly, it's a gray zone. Is sperm a human, is the egg a human, at the exact moment of conception is it a human, at what point in the pregnancy does it goes from cells to a human, at birth is it a human?

I think most can agree 6+ months into a pregnancy the baby is formed and somewhat functional, aborting at that stage is cruel and unnecessary.

>>132963932
Anti-Abortion
Pro-Sterilization

>>132963932
I watched my son move his arms on an ultrasound screen during his first trimester. Abortion is murder and it's fucking wrong, there is no way to justify it.

I avoided having children until I was good and ready. The real question is, why are other people retarded?

>>132965274
>Males give up the right to have a legal say in what happens
Ahh, wha? They don't have any rights to give up, that's kind of my point, maybe they should. If you disagree thats fine, I think it was my weakest argument of those listed, and think its an interesting tell that thats the one - and only one - you picked to respond too.

>>132965363
A woman having 10 abortions doesn't stop her ability at some point to have 10 kids when she is at a better point in her life to handle that responsibility.

>>132963932
I like how you presented every argument against abortions as being emotional, fatburger. Makes you look real unbiased in the matter.

Here's a proper argument against free-for-all abortions for you - it fucks up the female body. The hormonal changes that happen to a woman when she's pregnant are massive, her entire body effectively gears first towards supplying the fetus with energy and nutrients, meaning the woman changes her body chemistry and the way food is processed, then raising it - meaning the brain chemistry changes, the personality as governed by hormones and brain chemistry changes as well. Interrupting these natural processes causes a massive shock to the organism of a woman - and with it come vastly increased risks of chronic diseases starting, and large numbers of complications from the procedure itself.

>>132965567
No one's having a third trimester abortion retard

>>132964550
>I don't think teens look at sex as "Hey, if I knock you up we can just go and get an abortion".
You are completely wrong about that.

>>132963932
Only a mercy abortion where both fetus and mother lives are at risk should be allowed. Other than that abortions should be outlawed.
Reason: if killing a person is allowed because it inconvenience someone else, then me going on a rampage should be allowed too because I'm bored. You see, abortions and it's supporters are illogical.

>>132965676
Learn to read?

>>132963932
If you're either a nigger, spic or believe in socialism. Cut that baby out. We don't need your scum here anymore.

>>132965414
It does, because each race should have their own ethnostate and keep a perfect competition with each other.
>Only abortion I consider acceptable is in case the mother is endangered by the conception or similar cases, where is better to keep the mother and have her pregnant again, than trying to save a baby that might not make it and would result in the mother's death.

>>132965758
Lol oops

>>132965707
Fetus, at the early stages, is not a human.

The mother shouldn't have to give of herself, to support someone else. No more than I should have to give you my blood if you need a transplant or for someone to give up a kidney (whether dead or alive), to someone needing a transplant.

No Abortion like you stated is kiling a human, and two why should I pay my tax dollars for something that I do not need and or want. It was the woman's choice to not check if there was a condom. and Condoms fail to use birth control pills or something. SO suck it up and don't kill your child.

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>>132963932
Arguments for:
>Provides manpower for your nation
Arguments against:
>Some of your population is unhappy

>>132965103
>Or maybe they don't see it as a human being?
They don't. But the leftiests who screech loudest about this crap don't see anyone but themselves as human...

>>132963932

>I believe abortions clinics should be readily available and TAX PAYER FUNDED.

Glad to know my money is going towards the killing of a child, something I don't agree with. I know you don't mind that OP.

It's a person, and if you have an abortion you're killing a person. That's what I believe. You shouldn't have an abortion because it's not right you're not evening giving what could be YOUR child a chance just cause you're selfish and don't want to deal with such big responsibilities (even then adoptions are a thing why kill your own child).

If you're not ready for that responsibility either A. Use a condom (even though there's still a chance) B. Don't have sex.

>>132965676
A human being is from conception. 46 chromosomes equal a person sometimes, in your case, 47 also equal a person

I am a Fascist and a eugenicist and therefore support aborting/sterilizing undesirables. I have no qualms with abortion in this respect

That being said, most people who are so called pro choice are uncomfortable with the idea. If you ask them 'do you feel comfortable with the idea of abortion being someone's only method of birth control' (that is, someone has casual sex and then has an abortion every few months to get rid of unwanted pregnancies) they will say that makes them uneasy. Although they support a woman to make a decision about an abortion, they do so by blocking out their innate belief that the fetus is alive. They will say they don't, but the fact that abortion as a contraceptive makes them uncomfortable betrays their true beliefs

>>132965620
Can I see some evidence to enforce those claims? I do not deny the shock of an abortion on the body can be synonymous to that of a miscarriage but I'd like to think the effects of the abortion outweigh the negatives of being forced to bring a child to term and to deal with the ramifications of that.

>>132965832
Somewhat wobbly definition of human there. Be for abortion but be honest about it.

>>132965832
Dumbass didn't even pass his bio 101 class. 46 chromosomes equals a person. That means a fetus and fertilized egg are human.

Abortion is wrong because

1. It is a form of murder.

2. It hinders population growth of a nation.

3. The consent argument is moot. If reality were based on consent we would all consent to birth.

4. It encourages sexual degeneracy (except in rape however points one through three still apply.)

>>132965832
>The mother shouldn't have to give of herself, to support someone else.
But making abortion illegal in ones state wouldn't force that, so....?

>>132964683
>The jumbled up tax point

Losing wasteful tax spending anywhere can be a positive. the argument is to redistribute the way it is currently spent to save money in the long run. Fetus, at early stages =/= a kid

As it relates to states rights I believe it is a national issue in the sense that we wouldn't allow states to make rape legal as it violates the rights of another person (in the abortion case, the mother)

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>>132964550

Their just going to sneak out of class and have sex in the handicapped bathroom anyway.

>>132966127
>Implying he didn't drop out

You can tell OP is either living with his parents or is extremely young

>>132965567
That flag doesn't fit you

>>132965832
>The mother shouldn't have to give of herself, to support someone else
Then she should have opted out of taking the dick

>>132964623
webm?

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Does OP not know that the child is literally ripped apart by tongs during abortions?

>>132965832
So its what, A space lizard?

>>132965593
That's completely wrong. Terminating several pregnancies can cause all pregnancies to terminate early on their own. The amount of time for this to occur also usually means the woman is no longer 15-25, when she is at her most fertile. Additionally, children are exposed to less and less testosterone in the womb the more children the mother has had previously. Fertility drops sharply after 30 and all sorts of birth defects begin to increase. Attempting to have unprotected sex with a 35-year-old woman who has had ten abortions can potentially NEVER result in a pregnancy and there is a serious risk of miscarriage and severe mental defects, not to mention the personality problems. You might have a few after this point, but not 10.

In all likelihood, she has also been in several romantic relationships which will make her unable to feel a strong attraction to anyone new, and she will have only ever had short relationships that she is now skilled in ending with no experience in maintaining one long-term. Older parents will also completely fuck any female children since they are most attracted to men in the age group of their father as they were growing up, which in this case would mean late 30s up to 50s.

Using birth control is not a good alternative either because it warps girls' personalities and severely reduces the production of hormones which make other men attracted to them. An average-looking woman would could still be considered extremely attractive when producing her normal smell and showing signs of fertility, while simultaneously finding the average man extremely attractive when she is ovulating. On top of all this it creates the same bad habits of leaving relationships at will and having casual sex, which by 30 will be her only experience and probably make a long-term marriage impossible. She is also far more likely to be exposed to venereal diseases, some of which may not even show visible symptoms and could be given to the children.

>>132965956
>>132965973
>>132966041
>>132966127
>>132966133
Fetus, at early stages, is not a child nor it is a viable human.

>>132966003
The female body is equipped specifically for dealing with the ramifications of bringing a child to term. Honestly, asking me to provide evidence that the female body changes during the prgnancy and after it for the purposes of raising a child is essentially the same as asking me to find you an equivalent biology textbook as the one I had in 6th grade.
You mention miscarriages - I assume that means you're familiar with the concept of unhealthy pregnancy termination then. A miscarriage is essentially the woman's body terminating the pregnancy because it isn't capable - or thinks it isn't capable due to a hormonal imbalance - or carrying the fetus all the way through to the end. Going in there, chopping the fetus up and then clawing the pieces out is even worse in the case that the body is healthy and ready for the pregnancy.

>>132965394
Bullshit. If you kill a pregnant lady, you can be charged with two murder cases.

>>132966547
Gas
The
((()))'s

>>132966547
>Shows an image of a third term abortion
>Implying it matters how gruesome the operation appears

>>132963932
> Contributes to death of white race
> Reduces the number of potential tax payers and population, thus affecting the sustainability of a nation's economy
> Reduces the number of replenishable numbers for a nation's military

Abortion weakens countries, especially first world ones. You essentially only looked at least religious/non-religious meme. Think harder next time.

>>132966678
Ignore them they're all fucking kids, remember it's summer...

>>132966678
Yes thats true. And if I was charged w/ that, I'd take it to SCOTUS and have one of the charges dropped because its unconstitutional.
The same power that grants SCOTUS or POTUS or The House or The Senate rule over the pop. also states that it can only recognize rights through citizenship, visa, or alien status as in illegals or war combatants.

>>132966003
I think you are making a good case for sex ed being a waste of time. You clearly didn't pay attention or learn anything other than new positions and gender identities. What do you think a pregnancy is? Honestly, what the fuck.

>>132966657
The definition becomes yet more wobbly! 'Viable'? What has 'viability' got to do with humanity?

>>132966657
Evidence? I wanna know where you're getting this from.

Also loved how you skipped over some of my points just to group me in with other people: My money is going towards something I don't agree with & If you're not ready for the responsibility A. Use a condom (Not 100%) B. Don't have sex

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You will never find an animal that kills his own baby and even if it happens is a very serious reason (probably the baby is too slow or weak) and not some "gotta fill my holes" reason

>>132963932
How about a compromise, you are only allowed one abortion in your life.

>>132966989
OP is a faggot

>>132963932
We must minimise our kinship with our own lower class.
If construction worker Jimbo has 5 kids it is no different than those of all those minorities you seem to despise on here.

Racism was never the answer, it is simply wrong, classicism is. True, Africans, arabs, Indians and so do not have a developed middle and higher class as we do, but it still exists. Baathi Arab states always had a decent secular elite for one. Imperial Iran had also a decent elite.
I for one would prefer Bashar to move in next door to me rather than some dimwit who happens to be white.

Racism is a go to ideology for the inferiors among whites. Those who try to hide their own uselessness behind someone else.

If we look at the migrant flood, it is truly a class issue, as it is the lower class which floods us.
When the Iranian migrant flood happened in 1979 it were mainly royalists, socialists and secularists of the higher and middle cadre fleeing. Today, you can see these people complain along with us about this migrant flood.

But I degress.
Abortion must be legal at all times. All those who fear whoredom, it would just make them do it illegal and under the radar. Bosnia and Herzegovina has still post communist total legality laws for it, and has like 2-3% abortions out of total births, while in communist times it had somewhere around 50% like Russia today. Abortion laws do not make the difference, society creates "whores".

Making abortion legal leads to these things:
>proper couples being forced to birth things with genetic disorders
>those whores you despise will become mothers
>minors would be parents
>there would be more orphans (as if adoption was popular even now)
>rapechildren
Etc

Who in their right mind can cry out that "a man and a man ain't parents" but think that a girl and her rapist are?

>>132966960
>>132966659
Nowhere did I dismiss the fact the pregnancies have an affect on mothers, the question is what negative effects do abortions and miscarriages have on the mother and are those effects manageable. What I'm hearing is that abortions could easily kill a mother and it is a dangerous operation to undertake.

>>132967051

You can't be this dumb. Animals eat their own children all the time. Lions and rats in particular.

>>132966867
>tax payers

Abortions mainly happen (as far as whites are concerned) to:
>genetically faulty fetuses
>rape cases
And most of all to
>"I don't work I am a princess" or "I am my own boss" gutter trash

In most of these cases you don't get tax payers, but welfare addicts.
In the time of automatization, this gets worse. Tesla predicted this stuff.

>>132963932
Rape babies should be aborted
And if you are too careless having sex, shouldn't be having it in the first place

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>>132964346
>>132965363

Doesn't work, it reduce poverty based reproduction, however the poor are still the reproductive power house in this economy, rich fags don't have as any children because of their IQ and wanting social economic autonomy.

>the poor are incentivized to have bastards as a retirement plan
>middle class higher IQ breed less the the degenerates and the wealth castes even less

Things don't quite work out the way their supposed too in reality, though abortion and birth control have worked to somewhat suppress the reproduction of the low IQ

>>132967683
I should have specified I am sorry in the vast majority of cases in the natural world is the mother and only the mother who takes care of the childrens while yes the males try to eat them to feed themselves or eliminate competition.

I am for it in the way Margie Sanger was for it.

Eugenics. Let the browns skins murder their future societal drains and maybe whites won't be as easy to genocide

>>132963932
Taxpayer money isn't funding abortion per the Hyde Amendment. Even if it was, though, this isn't a distinct argument against abortion, unless you argue that your taxes shouldn't fund something you disagree with. Obviously this is an incredibly weak argument as tax dollars fund wars/military growth, internet surveillance, domestic policies like the war on drugs, etc.

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>>132963932

As a marxist, I've come to see abortion as a tool of the progressive capitalist elite to wage class and race war against the proletariat.

Destroy the family, destroy the community, destroy a sense of comradeship and you have a group of easily manipulated and pliable sheep who are left to stew in their own squalor and delinquincy rather than strong, healthy, capable and productive workers

The family is the backbone of any state, people or community. If their goal is to create a system where their pan global corporatism runs free, than it will be to destroy the family of the proletariat, allow for promiscuity and devalue the inherent dignity of the worker.

>>132966657
Arguing over the point it becomes human is meaningless. It doesn't matter where you draw the line because any fetus will inevitably pass it over time. Abortions do tremendous psychological and physical damage to a woman, who in reality would be much healthier if allowed to give birth and would likely refuse to give up the child as well. The women grow to regret it over time anyway because it becomes increasingly obvious that they would have had a baby and that they would have loved it. The supposed short-term benefits always feel extremely stupid in retrospect because it was going to become a child until they intervened.

There is no logic in trying to define it by the form it takes for a moment in time, rather than looking it what it was and would be with a few weeks' difference. Everyone involved in the process acknowledges this. This argument only seems to make sense in abstract, where the past and future don't exist and you can take everything out of context. If you were making a decision about your own life or solving a problem you'd obviously be thinking about the passage of time and what things will look like weeks, months, or years down the line.

How you can play video games with this mindset (save time, prepare for the future, predict what your choices will mean later, get the ending you want) and then play dumb about real life problem-solving is a unbelievable. Your naivety is staggering. I bet you've spent more time thinking about how a fictional character could have done things differently than this issue.

A fetus is a human being because it is going to become one if left alone. You think chickens like it when you take their eggs? Even they know to protect their eggs because it represents a chicken in the making. It does not have to hatch to become a chicken. Females in general are protected because they represent potential future babies, and there is not even a fetus involved most of the time.

>>132968415
NO SHIT!, and workers of the world, save up, and earn the means of production, and put lazy fat cats Frederic Engels and Marx, out of business, of their exploitation of Engels's fathers factory workers.

>>132963932
I am of the opinion that it should be legal before the heart starts beating, usually around the first 5-7 weeks, or if the mothers life is in danger. At what point does an organization of cells constitute a human? At conception i dont agree with, but aborting a baby with developed organs, a functioning brain, and nervous system is fucked up. I dont believe that a mother should be mandated to carry a rape baby to delivery. I dont know how i feel about funding an abortion clinic for women who change their minds, i hate the notion but a kid doesnt deserve to grow up in a shitty single parent home or foster care. A shitty person costs society a lot more than an abortion, but then you verge on eugenics. But is eugenics inherently wrong? Humanity is the only species that preserves the invalid to the detriment of the capable.

I havent decided on a lot of this shit.

>>132963932
>literally not the roasty's body
>"MUH BODY"

>>132968952
All the heart does is pump blood.

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>>132963932
The women should do with her body what she wants argument is stupid. Women have control over their body,
You want to get tattoo? Go ahead
You want piercing? Go ahead
the problem comes when you want to decide on others persons body

>>132965832
>has all the genes of a human
>"it's not a human because if it were I would have to rethink my policy"
really activates the almonds

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>>132969119
>Mash of cells
>other person's body

>>132963932
I am in favor of abortion because it prevents welfare leeches. But I think sterilization should be mandatory for any women who gets an abortion for reasons other then health or to prevent a potato baby.

>>132963932
End all gibsmedats. If you want an abortion pay for it yourself. If you want to have a kid, pay for it yourself. Problem solved.

>>132969359
>genetically distinct
>yet somehow not another person
???

>>132965274
Fuck you

>>132969609
Don't wilingly abandon your seed in another person.

>>132969113
And all the brain does is fire neurons. You have to draw a line somewhere, and i think thats better than a zygote or an 8 month late term abortion.

>>132965274
>someone murders your unborn child.
>zero repercussions.

>>132963932
Who is that Benis holster?

>>132969258
And a retard can lack chromosomes. Does that mean it's not human if it doesnt have all the genes?

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>>132970169
>Equating having a willful medical procedure to having someone do something to your body unwillingly

>>132965832
You seem like a real scum bag. The kind that has been raised by jew TV to believe that nobody should take responsibility for their actions and that a child is just a burden to being able to drink and spend money frivolously. The fact that you say a woman shouldn't have to give of herself to support someone, as if her child is just some random bum, says so much about the kind of person you are. You are a loathsome human being (and you even equate it to you giving blood to a stranger--what kind of monster are you?). Ironically, I would support your mother's right to abort you right now.

>>132963932
First of all. The legal basis FOR abortion is based on the BIBLE, so it is religious. How?

The legal definition of WHEN begins Human life states that human life begins with the "first breath" so after the baby leaves vagina, and takes the first breath. The FIRST BREATH is based on the Bible dogma of the Breath of Life.

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/L/Life.aspx

Genesis 2:7

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The definition of when human life begins is lacking, and based on old and outdated knowledge. This outdated definition of human life, is the main cause why abortion is not considered a homicide. In order to stop abortion, we must update the definition of when does human life begin. And all we need is base the legal definition on modern day science to define it. Because the current definition is just based on religious dogma.

It is ironic, that abortionists are against religious dogma, but completely ignore the fact, that abortion is legally possible because its based on religious dogma.

>>132970840
>Pushing your morality on me and others
>Not letting others live the way they choose
>Your unique way of seeing things is how all others should live their lives.

>>132963932
>What is contraception?

>>132965973
A severed finger is now a person? How about a flake of skin?
A functioning brain is what makes a human, a blastocyst or embryo doesn't have one. Incidentally a late term fetus does and aborting one can reasonably be described as ending a life (all that changes at birth is plumbing).

People should use birth control or give their kid up for adoption if they don't want them. Irresponsibility shouldn't have a get out of jail free card.

>>132971223
Contraception is a means of preventing pregnancy during sexual intercourse. The means are not 100% successful nor are they 100% readily available.

>>132971357
giving up the child for adoption doesn't stop the mother from being forced to carry the child to term and give birth.

Slide Thread

>>132963932
post more of her pls

>>132971472
>giving up the child for adoption doesn't stop the mother from being forced to carry the child to term and give birth.
Did someone force her to spread her legs? If no, she consented to the risk involved, of having a baby. A contract was made.

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>>132971128
>thinks killing babies is an individual choice

>>132971667
Even with contraception being used they are not always successful. Arguing that something has a risk and therefore one should always deal with the consequences if something goes wrong is dangerous thinking.

>>132971688
>fetus
>baby

>all those arguments for abortion
>not one mention of abortion decreasing crime rates
spoken like a true American who cares only about himself.

>>132972065
Arguing that something has a risk and therefore one should always deal with the consequences if something goes wrong is dangerous thinking.
So what are you advocating? That actions should not have consequences? GUD LUCK

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I honestly believe that if the guardians are in agreement, they should be able to kill a baby until it's probably about six months old.

As far as I'm concerned a baby is inanimate property until it can be considered a person, and a newborn baby is akin to a flesh slug, that could theoretically be formed into a person someday. It has no value to society, it has no particular desire to stay alive and no fear of death, the only motivation that exists anywhere for it to continue living is the sentimental connection of the parents, so if they want to dispose of it they should be able to.

Why is abortion morally wrong? If I have a dog and can't take care of it, simply can't afford to, it ends up at the pound and eventually gets euthanized. A newborn baby, and especially an unborn baby, is far less aware of its own existence, much farther away from being a human being, and of far less value to myself and to society than a dog. The only possible argument is that the baby has some kind of potential value, but that sort of reasoning is circular.

Too much value is placed on babies in our society, both morally and economically. There's probably a valid argument to be made about killing your own child being antithetical to human instinct and natural law, but that's not how our laws should be written.

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Why don't we just eliminate welfare?

>mfw liberals think they're more rational/scientific than conservatives

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>>132972645
forgot my image

>>132972496
Razor-sharp edge

>>132972496
Satanic

>>132972367
No, what you are arguing for is a world where we don't treat drug users but rather let them OD and die or that we don't have bankruptcy protection laws because "people knew the risk" of what they were doing.

>>132964223
well let's see, you have on one hand the convenience of the "mother", and on the other hand you have the life of a child

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>>132972855
>>132972684
Fuck me, I guess.

>>132973087
The life of the child is no more inherently worthwhile than the lives of the millions of farm animals slaughtered daily.

>>132973087
>sack of cells
>child

>convenience
>Not life changing and potentially life threatening ramifications

>>132972496
This is your brain on (((science))) and (((materialism)))

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>>132972496
>As far as I'm concerned a baby is inanimate property until it can be considered a person
I would be more inclined to agree if you didn't say this. Murder is sometimes helpful and no one will miss a baby, you don't have to qualify it by redefining it as not *really* murder because it's not *really* a person.

>Why is abortion morally wrong?
Harmful to your physiology, harmful to your morals, harmful to society. If two people conspired to kill their retarded vegetable child at any age, the situation would be similar. They are just trying to get out of it and it doesn't need to be justified by dehumanizing the target. That doesn't really change the situation at all and it would still be very questionable in spite of most people probably agreeing with it.

You can still perform immoral acts and redefining them to make it easier is just pointless and stupid. You would still go through with it anyway even if you thought it was immoral because the situation and your reasons would not change. You're just trying to excuse it because you would do it, and you don't want to label something you would do immoral. It's the same argument used to justify stealing from supermarkets because they don't lose any money from it. It's still theft, trying to redefine or it justify it doesn't change anything.

You're still stealing from people mainly because you want to have things, and you are still executing babies mainly because you want to kill them. This is what makes it immoral in the first place. People are objecting to babies getting killed. That's what they consider immoral, not the abstract concepts of abortion or personhood. Semantics does not change how people feel about it and you are definitely a narcissist if you think your crimes magically become not crimes because it's you.

If the guardians are in agreement, no one can stop them. Yeah, no shit.

>>132973215
>The life of the child is no more inherently worthwhile than the lives of the millions of farm animals slaughtered daily.

If only everyone else who argued for this insanity would be this brazen and daft.

>>132973215
>The life of the child is no more inherently worthwhile than the lives of the millions of farm animals slaughtered daily

I pro choice but that is the stupidest fucking pro choice argument I have ever read. A child's life will ALWAYS be of a greater value than an animals due to the potential that a child holds. Also, you sound like an edgy teenage faggot and need to stop making the rest of us look bad.

>>132973215
>a human life is not more valuable to humans
Reminder everyone who has ever expressed an opinion on this subject is human, you are human, and everyone currently reading this thread is human. Everyone you will ever talk to is human and anyone you could ever argue with is human.

So what is your point even? Who do you think you are talking to?

>>132963932
I agree that Abortion should be legal. $500 is a lot cheaper than 18 years of government assistance and possible more through welfare if they are lazy as fuck.

When you have a kid, you're gambling. Yeah, the kid might be a millionaire, a CEO or an average Joe... Could also be a serial killer, rapist or someone who is homeless.

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>>132973710
>Reminder everyone who has ever expressed an opinion on this subject is human, you are human, and everyone currently reading this thread is human. Everyone you will ever talk to is human and anyone you could ever argue with is human.
For now...

>>132963932
The real issue with abortion is that whores aren't punished for their sins. Nobody is going to get an abortion if they know they're going to get the whip of purification afterwards. How do we keep killing retards and poor people while making choices have consequences?

>>132965103
Me, personally, I view when the fetus is capable of staying alive on its own if it were birthed at that moment to be too late for abortion.

It's technically a parasite until it comes out, and supports itself. What does it benefit, being pregnant? It sucks nutrients from your body, it puts you in otherworldly amounts of pain, it ruins your pussy, literally tearing it open like a box on Christmas, etc.

IDK if it is killing another human. At one point or another in our Human existence, we will need a form of population control- like China or some shit.

>>132974155
>Nobody is going to get an abortion if they know they're going to get the whip of purification afterwards
>He actually believes this

What about all the places where abortion is illegal but women go to some back alley to get it done anyway?

>>132963932
>Freedom of not having to follow religious beliefs of others
What if I as a taxpayer don't want to participate in your child sacrifice orgy? Does that right apply to me as well?

>>132966678
That's just some bullshit legislation introduced by republicans. Nowhere in the entirety of the US law code are fetuses formally recognized as persons or citizens.

>>132974170
Birth sustains the human race and is the reason that you are alive today. I'm pro choice but stop acting like an edgy faggot (like op)

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>>132973677
Potential is a shit argument. Anything could potentially happen. A potential employer told me that the equity could potentially be worth thousands, but I value it at exactly $0 because I'm not an idiot. The law shouldn't deal in potential value. If somebody crashes into my car I shouldn't be owed whatever I could have potentially gotten for it because some I could have swindled some sucker on craigslist, I should be owed a realistically depreciated figure, or the amount necessary to buy a comparable replacement. Potential is meaningless. Potential is only a measure of impact on society, and most people have a negative impact on society (depending mostly on geographic location), and therefore babies have the greatest potential to do more harm than good.

>>132973710
That's instinctual sentimentality, being able to master your base instincts and reason intelligibly is what separates you and I from the animals.

>>132973559
Sure as hell can't make my argument in public, nobody is even willing to give it a split second of consideration before casting you out from society.

>>132973463
>Harmful to your physiology, harmful to your morals, harmful to society.
How so?

>you don't have to qualify it by redefining it as not *really* murder because it's not *really* a person.
I'm not redefining abortion because I want to commit murder. I have no dog in this fight. All I'm doing is questioning the accepted idea that babies are somehow sacrosanct. I don't care about abortion. What I'm asking is, why are babies valued so highly? I argue that it is a vestigial component of human instinct, the strongest of all human instincts being that of reproduction.

Babies don't start building inherent value until they start to have experience and intellect and perspective. Losing those things is detrimental, but losing an empty vessel, when you already have a huge surplus of empty vessels, is inconsequential.

>>132974562
What worth does your life have? Why can't we just perform a post-natal abortion on you?

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>>132976207
My life's value is subjective, of course, but I'd argue that any functioning and contributing member of society obviously has greater value than a baby, at least as far as human society at large is concerned. In the most basic case, I am self-sufficient and I do my part to push the economy forward. In a more nuanced sense, I represent a unique permutation of experiences and ideas which contribute to the diverse fabric of human culture. A baby has neither of those benefits.

You could easily make the argument that I am only contributing to a system of economy that has resorted to making up artificial jobs in order to prop up an outmoded paradigm, and that my contributions to culture are trite, but what it comes down to is that as long as society is of value, and my contributions to it are roughly average, then I'm doing my part to further the human experiment.

Now let me address you with a question, since you felt so inclined to respond with barbed sarcasm. Why does my notion so viscerally upset you that you not only feel comfortable rejecting it out of hand without reasoned rebuttal, but you revel in doing so? Are you incapable of confronting it intellectually? Are you so overwhelmed with outrage? Explain to me in rational terms why you think I'm wrong. For my sake and your own.

>>132976932
>greater value

And this is the crux of my argument. Nobody has the liberty to decide the value of someone else's life. Your life will always be of lesser value to someone else, to the point of insignificance. You will always be disposable to someone. You would give the authority to judge inherent value and arbitrate existential worth to someone else? Who? By what criteria? Who writes the criteria? Who dispenses judgment?

Your averages are meaningless if you would let someone else decide your fate. That is above all spineless, and nobody can render that judgment.

And the reason for the pointed question was so that you would think a little harder before answering. I am trying to lead you to the natural conclusion that no man can judge anothers worth, because such a system can only be perverted and corrupted, and if you agree to such a system you agree to your own death. You verbose pseudointellectual faggot.

>>132963932

No one has autonomy over another person's body. Abortion is murder.

>>132977698
>Fetus
>Body

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>>132977612
>no man can judge anothers worth
He unironically decrees from the land of capital punishment.

Judgement of inherent value is done everyday in polite society and has always been done in one manner or another. What's more, it is essential to the functioning of that society, and is represented largely by even pack animals in the wild. Social consensus judges inherent value. The tools of social ostracism, casting out, imprisonment, and capital punishment are essential for weeding the purely detrimental from the pack. When society identifies a sociopath, the immune system of that society goes to work excising the tumor.

Social consensus would deem me inherently valuable to society (as long as society doesn't get its hands on my posts here), and as it is making a judgement of value to itself, its own subjectivity on the issue is the definitive one. Currently, social consensus would also deem any given baby inherently valuable as well, but I question that judgement. Simple as that.

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>>132963932

Arguments for:

>Fetus is not a human

Arguments against:

>fetus is a human

Otherwise you can fuck off.