Anyone else getting tired of all the ancaps trying to subvert

By decentralising business?

>>132741919
By not understanding that ancap=somalia. Anyone subscribing to any form of anarchism is a complete and utter moron. Before some smartass decides to create a false dichotomy, not supporting ancap doesn't mean that someone supports 1984.

>>132742309
>By not understanding that ancap=somalia.
A lot of Friedman fanboys are ancaps, so they'll accept a bare minimum of state being a judicial system, to enforce contracts. Somalia is chaotic anarchy.

>Anyone subscribing to any form of anarchism is a complete and utter moron.
We like thinking orderly anarchy is more than just an obvious oxymoron and might actually work.

>Before some smartass decides to create a false dichotomy, not supporting ancap doesn't mean that someone supports 1984.
It does make it more likely I'll resist and you'll give in and whore your rectum as the only thing you're fit for society.

>>132741703
/pol/ is originally libertarian board, you larping stormfags need to gtfo

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>>132741703

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>>132742877
Times change, faggot.

>>132742821
>muh likes
>muh feels
>ad hominem
Shitpost par excellence. Australian confirmed.

>>132741703
No - anti statism is undoing the jew-pawnery.

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>>132742877

>>132742309
Somalia = communism after it fails once more

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>>132741703
Those fucking libertarians, mane.
Don't thy know I LIKE tasting daddy government's dick?

Are Guy Fawkes Masks Libertarians? Pretty much?

Anyone notices how there's more criticism of Ancap than of communism lately?

Fucking storm larpers know their actual enemies, and it's not the jews, it's having to take responsibility for their failure.

>>132744333

Completely free market, no gummint to interfere with anything yet it isn't anacap?

>not real communism
>not real ancap

I see Libertarians as the natural organic process after removal of parasitic Jew.. Libertarians with UBI should be the future. Prove me wrong

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Police, law courts, public servants, Mi5, Mi6, Soldiers, Army, Doctors, Nurses NHS staff, street sweepers, Civil servants, etc etc. ar ALL on the public payroll.....................but they pay income tax, right?

So unless they are making a loss and paying to "work" they are leeching off the public purse. They are on the same payroll as welfare recipients.

They are net tax negative.

Their salaries are simply printed into existence and this devalues all the currency in circulation. You can't print capital.

They are new-age commies.

They need to get in the helicopter.

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Ancaps are not ans nor caps. They are just deeply confused individuals, usually autistic, who are attracted to their "philosophy" because its childishly simplistic outlook can be easily hidden behind a bunch of big words and pseudoscience, creating the appearance of intelligence for people who know themselves to be basically retarded.

Pic related. Fuck off ancaps.

>>132741703
They're annoying yes.
But not as much as all the uneducated Stormfags who think Nazism that killed the West by destroying its immunity system is the remedy to save it, and keep scaring normies away from race realism and a rebellious mindset.

>>132744872
You can't print capital.

>>132744581
Somalia is a sub 70IQ shithole under permanent state of war financed by Soviet weapons given before they tried to invate Ethiopia.

Sort of like Croatia but with more melanin.

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Hi newfag, /pol/ had always an anarcho-libertarian feels, since the beginning. Its only until a couple of years we got nazied, before that there were only a bunch of stormfaggots we used to mock all the time.

>>132744872
this

>>132745117
>sub 70IQ
>is ancap aka autistic
>doesn't see irony because ancap aka autistic

>>132741703
It's foaming at the mouth Communists pretending to be ancap. Flags are the opposite 8/10 times. Welcome to /pol/ now get out!

>>132741703
>Wanting to destroy global finance, and central banks.
>Wanting to hang the current neo capitalist bougosise.

Yup I love Jews. At least my meme flag didn't help create isreal

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National debt is not capital.

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

>>132741703
Ancap is retarded meme-ideology
Minarchism is acceptable

>>132745535
>let me tell you about how my exact branch of communism won't end with millions of death people and starvation

Fuck off to leftypol

>>132742877
Look up /new/ for me will you? Fuckin newfags.

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>>132744872
Hahahaha hilarious coming from an "anarchist" that aligns themselves with Communists.
>In order to abolish the state we need to give the state supreme authority
Fucking genius bro!

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Gun ownership is a right and a method to cull those who don't understand private property.

Thence society improves greatly.

Gun confiscation leads to retards spawning retards.

>>132745780
>wanting desperately to look smart
>cannot comprehend real political ideology
>finds a stupid but easy to understand ideology that can easily be attached to big words to try to appear smart
>is autistic
>therefore embraces said ideology

Just go color or write 10,000 page books about dragons or something. Politics isn't for you spergs.

>>132742877
Libertarians are sometimes okay unlike turbofaggot ancaps

>>132745810
>is autistic
>sees a philosophy that claims to be smarter than everybody else and therefore the best by default
>understands nothing but wants to look smart cuz autistic
>embraces philosophy
>remains autistic

>>132745835
>wants safe space for ancap autism

No.

>>132741703
ancaps are just misguided souls, who will someday realize their identity as minarchist libertarians.
I'm more concerned about the unironic national socialists

>>132746007
>doesn't understand Communism because Marx is too hard
>Mises Institute talking points are easy
>autist becomes ancap
>is still autist

>>132746305
I always think a libertarian state will be full of AnCap individuals, but you can't have an AnCap state by definition.

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>>132741703

ITT: butthurt stormkikes trying to subvert this board.

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>>132746337
What's correct about naming yourself after a system that was anti-capitalist from the beginning?

What's incorrect about Somalia=ancap?

What's incorrect about all ancaps are autists?

>nothing

>>132745535

>ancom
>not autistic and self-contradictory

pick one

>>132742309
You're a product of jewish brainwashing, you filthy statist.
You're a good goy, my dude.

Pirate is best political affiliation. Prove me wrong.

>>132745818

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

>>132745117
Somalia has completely unregulated free market capitalism.
Somalia has no gummint to interfere with anything.
Ergo, Somalia is ANCAP promised land.

>>132746049
>>132746169
>>132746246
>safe space

Yeah safe from brainlets who do nothing but screech "AUTISM" at anything beyond their comprehension level. Make an argument or go starve somewhere else, pinko faggot.

Want to see an argument, how about you explain how people whose ideology is literally abstract thinking and hypothesis can be autists, when autists have no capability of abstract thinking?

Fucking mong, day of the helicopter can't come soon enough.

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Why can't we all just get along.
National Socialists - Ancaps/Libertarians
Christians - Atheists/Pagans
Catholics - Orthodox
Canada - /pol/

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>>132746169
Whats incorrect about "unbridled plunge into unlimited debt is bad"?

>>132746540
>>132746169
Sorry - I added "is bad" and a pic for clarification.
Why? - cuz autistic, apparently.

>>132746371
Haven't bothered reading marx as history has shown that Marxism/leninism is a complete failure so much so that even Marxist gave up on it besides some struggling to breathe Momo's such as yourself.

>>132746371
this

>>132746563
>thinks anarchism as the term was used for over a century prior to Lolthbard was "self-contradictory"
>names self after this allegedly "self-contradictory" term
>autism

>>132746697
>insists he is not autistic
>by making most autistic rage post ever
>is autistic

>>132746838
None of them have even heard of Proudhon.

>>132746697
Sorry but ancap really is mentally retarded. It requires such a level of mental retardation I can't even explain why to you because your measly brain is completely incapable of grasping what simple logical conclusions are required to understand why it's retarded. So I would just be wasting my time.

>>132741703
Screen cap this
Watch Antifa will merge with Ancap

>>132746688
>Somalia has completely unregulated free market capitalism.

No it doesn't. Somalia is in war, a war of multiple states trying to take control over its territory. Depending on where your house fell you will be taxed by one or another.

Was Spain ancap during the civil war? Was the US ancap during the civil war?

If your standards of defining what ancap is is just a failed state in a situation of war then of couse it's going to look shit, but no ideology would fix Somalia, Socialism didn't, national socialism wouldn't, only filling Somalia with whites and people above 90 IQ would.

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>>132746587
Yeah - thats basically AnCap.
Pirate boats were basically an anarchic society (An) and they were on the hunt for booty and plunder (Cap).

Its the lack of understanding private property is where pirates fuck up, but hey, its close enough

>>132746797
>thinks Marxism-Leninism=all of Marxism
>admits he has read nothing about Marx
>but knows he hates it
>autism

>>132746959
>>132746910

Good arguments.

We're taking over 4chan because you guys aren't even putting a fight.

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>>132746838
>>132746540
>>132746371
>>132746246
>>132746169
>>132746049
>>132745535
>>132744872

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QsbvE_0Kpc

>>132746913
Of course not. That would require actual reading that takes more than 5 minutes and a degree of concentration. Autists are not capable of this, which is why only they are fooled by ancap shite.

>>132746994
They already have. If you payed attention most of the lolbertairian party only cares about buttsecks and dude weed. Oh, and open borders.

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Should humans interact
>Voluntarily
>Coersively

If you pick voluntarily, you are an ancap.

If you pick coersively, what the fuck is wrong with you?

>>132741703

I just don't get why the new flags were added in the first place.

>>132747040

Definition of ancap=no state + unregulated market capitalism.

>Somalia has no state
>Somalia has unregulated markets
>Your theory is shit
>Autism

>>132747250
>A
>FUCKING
>BURGER
>Burger posting this hard
>burger education
>burger flag observed, disregarding entire post
>being this burger.
Because of burgers burger-posting burger.

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>>132747056
>>132746910
>>132746838
>>132746540
>>132746371
>>132746246
>>132746169
>>132746049
>>132745535
>>132744872

>Can only greentext
>makes no actual arguments
>just calls everyone autistic retards

>Is actually an autistic retard
>dosn't realise cuz autistic retard

>>132746913
>>132747161

ermagerd personal property, mutualism, etc.

http://praxeology.net/all-left.htm

>>132747056
You keep using autism like it's some sort of insult. Autism is the next step in human evolution and, it's going to lead to the demise of Communists.

>>132747125
>Continues to behave as all autists do trying to look smart
>Can't comprehend why everyone just laughs after all the hard work he's put in trying
>Autism

>>132747040
>if you have enough shekels you can buy a tank
>not real free market capitalism
Son, you are reaching Bernie Sanders levels of delusion
>but it wasn't real communism

>>132747176
>Thinks having the fruits of your labor stolen in order to have food and shelter is "voluntary"
>Autism

>>132741703
A suspiciously large amount of them ARE Jews.

while imho the creation of money for the ppl shoud not be put into the power of private banks, ancap at least depowers banks. while right now banks are allowed to create money out of thin air, while its only trustworthy because the state and its ppl provide its trust.

in free banking banks are stripped of that power and i like that.

i still prefer a strong state that prints its own money via a fourth power, the monetative, that only follows inflation laws

>>132742309
I'm not an ancap but the Somalia argument is invalid. All parts of Somalia are administered by various warlords, which is a form of government.

>>132746540
The opposite of anarchism is statism.
I'm against statism and the only time Communism "worked" was Soviet Russia that had quite a large state.

Also, I see Gold and Silver as money. Which is literally capital.

Mises and Rothbard were Jews BTW

>>132747447
>14 posts by this ID on a thread that's not even about his ideology

Keep the rage flowing son.

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>>132747183

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>roads
roads would be more effective if private contractors competed with one another to make them more effective

>>132747406
At least you embrace your retardation and recognize that as a retard, you believe your retardation is actually way smart, and that it is this particular type of retardation that leads all of you to be the only people on earth who are ancoms.

>>132747603
Israel is not ancap. Maybe jews don't like it as much as you think.

>>132747541
Mises, Rothbard, Friedman

kike city.

>>132747603

We don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

>>132741703

I'd have a monarchist flag if the mods weren't fags.

Just report the commie fag, nothing but insults, obviously is on a rage trip

>>132746639
>Im fat and need to lose some weight
>I think I'll start regular jogging sessions for about 20 minutes everyday
>Naah, I just gonna run till I faint from dehydration

>>132747728
>>Friedman
>Chicago School

>>132747564
>warlords
>form of government
No. Gummint implies some sort of rule of law. Warlords = decisions based on whether someones dick is currently leaning to the left or to the right a.k.a. anarchism

>>132744581
>country completely run by warlords
>free market with no government
are you retarded? Serious question

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>>132742877
>newfaggot ancap niggers actually believe this
Get off my fucking board

>>132747564
>Implying a stateless capitalist system wouldn't always result in exactly that

Yeah bud, that's the whole point. Get rid of the state while keeping capitalism in place tomorrow, and the next day you'd have the Confederation of Wal-Mart over here, the Republic of Microsoft over there, the United States of Comcast up north... Etc. etc. All of them armed to the teeth with private paramilitary organizations.

>>132742905
this
ancap-jewish alliance when?

>>132747856
Are you?
>>132747856

>>132747579
There is no literal capital.
You can't literally have something that doesn't physically exist. This is where ancap's picture of reality breaks down and makes them look like drooling fucking retards.
Property laws require a state. Without realistically enforceable property laws you get pirates. And shiver me timbers you retard. Without being bound by your closed economic loop pirates are able to rove around, unmolested pillaging their way to economic success by harvesting the fruits of other people's labour.
Merchants had to travel in literal fucking naval armadas back in the golden age of piracy, that's how powerful pirates were able to become under such conditions.

>>132747579
>lol thinks Soviets "worked" cuz they were a state-capitalist country

Nobody cares what you "see" as money, anymore than they care about all of the bizarre things you autists "see". Money is a legal fiction, a social construction to represent value, which it does with incredible inconsistency under capitalism. Money isn't real. Value is real. And value is created by labor.

>>132744581
the problem is somalians dont know what the nap is

>>132747678
Except that's not a strawman argument. It breaks down all of the problems with your retarded ideology. You just chose not to regard it as a legitimate argument because you are mentally retarded and incapable of conceding how retarded you are because that would break your puny little self-esteem.

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>>132747533
In what part of ancapism is the thing you're against necessary?

You can live how you want to without being exploited.

>>132747855
What you're saying is irrational. Your argument would mean that countries in the past which had absolute monarchies with no constitution, such as the Russian Empire, had no government, which is obviously wrong.

>>132748130
Always some excuse with you guys.
>it wasn't real communism

>>132744581
>>132742309
>communists and islamists gut each other over control of some third world countries
>it's the ancaps fault
loving every day of this meme

>>132741703
Yes. Its not that I'm completely opposed to every economic point they make, but honestly, you have to be a kike to love money that fucking much. They'd sell anyone down the river if it meant a profit, nothing esoteric matters to these fucks. All for the shekels. I sometimes think Rothbard and Goldwater shilled hyper individualism just to ensure that there's only one tribe. THE tribe.

>>132748049
Yup. They take money literally, theories as laws of nature and economics as a hard science.

All three of these things are not taken serious by literally anyone else on the political spectrum. But due to autism, they are incapable of taking things non-literally, and therefore are the only people on the planet who can be fooled by ancap hogwash.

TL;DR All ancaps are autistic and know it.

>>132748214
>Your argument would mean that countries in the past which had absolute monarchies with no constitution, such as the Russian Empire, had no government
But they had rule of law. Somalia doesn't. FFS, even the most despotic monarchies had publically proclaimed rules and enforced adhering to them. You made a non-argument, son.

>>132748160
Unless you plan on going on vacation without armed guards posted to ensure someone doesn't take your property.

>>132748160
I am against exploitation and the robbery of the fruits of others' labor.

Just like every other anarchist ever up until Lolthbard came along and cornered the ideological market on autists.

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I say:
>Gold and Silver as money

You say:
>You can't literally have something that doesn't physically exist

You make ZERO sense.
I literally have some silver in my hand right now. It has value.

Whos an autistic retard?

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>>132742309
>Anyone subscribing to any form of anarchism is a complete and utter moron
Implying Somalia is bad or anything

>>132748569
How much value did your silver have before it was discovered, extracted, and processed? In other words, what value did it have before *labor* came into the equation?

>>132748434
The absence of codified law does not imply the absence of government. A body that collects taxes coercively and provides for defence is a government, regardless of how arbitrary the warlord is.

Somalia lacks a state but does not lack governments, much like medieval European principalities.

>>132741703
But annon.


I am the Jew

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>muh individualism

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>>132748053
Gold and Silver are money.
The "legal fiction" is currency - which is printed to infinity. Until its worthless.

Gold and Silver have always had value all round the world all throughout history. Except in "western nations" since about half way through the 70s.

>>132748839
The Gold meme is fucking retarded, a way for scam artists to prey on stupid libertarians

>>132748143
I DONT want a state to look after me. Thats not low self esteem.

>be ancap
>support ideology that in case of implementation isn't gonna be enforced by anyone and will be replaced by previous system

>>132748788
>muh individualism
>posts a picture of people whose degeneracy relies on the welfare state

Good job my friend.

>>132748602
>Implying Somalia is bad or anything
Not just implying. I'm now, as God is my witness, stating that anyone voluntarily choosing to live in a situation like it is in Somalia is a complete and utter moron bred in overly-sheltered environment.

>>132748839
What value did they have *before* the gold and silver was discovered, extracted, and processed? In other words, what value did gold or silver ever have before *labor* came into the equation?

Come on, you can figure out where I'm going with this. I know the autism makes everything cloudy but it's right there in front of you.

So if tomorrow they manage to kill Maduro are you going to claim Venezuela is the ancap paradise we all needed too?

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>>132748490
Isn't that the current world, at all times, throughout all of history, regardless of political setup?

The one in charge of protecting your property is you. It will never change.

>>132748493

We're in complete agreement on being against exploitation and robbery of the fruits of others' labor.

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>>132748934
>meanwhile a society with a welfare state

>>132748754
>A body that collects taxes coercively and provides for defence is a government
They don't do that. They take money by force and provide nothing in return. Just the way ancap is doomed to tun out.

>>132749027
No. The entire state would need to collapse and areas be taken over by mercenaries, which is the end result of ancap no matter where or when it happens.

>>132749053
>we're in complete agreement

No, I can guarantee you we are not. Unless you agree with the following statement

>profits are unpaid labor

we are absolutely not in agreement at all.

>>132749153
So, socialism fails, whatever happens after socialism fails happens, and it's somehow Ancap?

You mongs are defining ancap as the residue of socialism failures, lmao.

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>>132748985
Its not the labor that gives it value - its the material. Because its rare, tangible, fungible, divisible etc. and conforms to the definition of money.

If you think the labor gives it the value why doesn't steel (or whatever) have equal (or greater) value since it takes more to process it? Theres substances that take more processing than silver or gold.

>>132746540
>individualist communism

and you say ancap is a contradiction in terms? We don't care if we're not real Anarchism by your definition. We propose a system that will work

>>132749326
So, labour has no value? A pile of mid sized rocks is equally valuable as a pile of masoned stones ready to be used in construction?

>>132749285
>implying state-capitalism was socialism

Chavez is worthy of a lot of praise, he was a brave opponent of imperialism and did his damnedest to provide for the needs of his people. But he was a social democrat. His failure was the same as the Soviets; 1. he did not abolish profits and the wage system 2. he over-relied on exports for global markets.

>implying Somalia was a socialist failure

Lel

>>132741703
Their bullshit propaganda breaks the NAP. I like how these fuckers will use the fruit of the state but never give it credit. Fucking DARPA created the fucking internet you edgelord children grow the fuck up.

>>132749549
Chavez and Maduro both follow the bullet points of the communist manifesto perfectly.

>1. he did not abolish profits and the wage system

He did. Price controls rings a bell? Profits limited to the whims of democracy.

>2. he over-relied on exports for global markets.

No shit, that's what happens in every single form of socialism. Countries become reliant on the only thing they know has international value because their theory of value is fucked up beyond belief.

>implying Somalia was not a socialist failure

lmao

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>>132749254
nigga what u doin?

I'm saying we agree and want to cooperate harmoniously.

You trying to drive us apart.

We can go 4chan autism mode or be decent human beings. Take your pick, cause they're both fun.

>>132749053
Lol no. You protect it from petty thievery, but the systems in place make sure your property itself isn't ceded to anyone who is stronger than you because thet can. Almost all social governing came about for 2 reasons. Property protection and settling ingroup feuds with small to no bloodshed. People knew being part of a tribe, clab, etc. meant that they would uphold your claims and people stopped being cool with losing 1/2 of their family over a cow.

>>132749326
You are misunderstanding the LTV.

1. It is a theory of value, not pricing. The fact that people price steel lower than gold or silver is irrelevant because value =/= prices.

2. Value is determined by *socially necessary labor time*, not just "whatever caused people to sweat the most is the most valuable"

TL;DR Gold may be more expensive, but it doesn't mean it's more valuable; price is subjective, value is determined by socially necessary labor.

>>132749471
>a system that will work
Where has it worked? Closest we've seen is Somalia and to most thinking human beings that looks pretty shitty.

>inb4 no true scotsman

>>132749546
The question is about the labor processing precious metals - not only labor of anything.
Of course labor has or adds value - it literally brings the product to the market.

>>132749055
But National Socialism isn't Socialism, amiright? Also:
>it's a picture of 20 or 30 good looking men, therefore welfare states are okay
NatSocs, or any other form of Socialism for that matter, are the niggers of the ideology world.

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>>132749546
He said labor does not give it it's value.

You ask if labor has no value.

He never made the case that labor has no value.

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>>132749055
>a few years after

somebody has to be the moral compass for /pol/

>>132749977
Price controls do not abolish profits. They are a Keynesian government regulation. They do not end profits, they do not put control over surpluses into the hands of workers.

2. Yes, that is what happens in every country that attempts socialism in a capitalist world. Which is why socialism must be an internationalist movement and the revolution most have global support, as Marx repeatedly said if you had bothered to read what he wrote instead of believe every bit of propaganda you've been fed since you were born.

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Don't worry about it. I still like Hitler. I just think he wasn't nearly right wing enough. That's why he lost.

He was too soft.

>>132750388
>88
Checked and KeKed.

>>132750147
You stated that labour doesn't add value in metal processing. Yet, steel (even the crappiest low carbon steel) has a lot more value than a pile if iron ore sitting next to a pile of coal.

>>132750147
Or the labour in processing precious metals. Forgot to add.

>>132750258
So, I'll try asking you then since he avoided it: what is the value, in the actual world, of a piece of undiscovered, un-extracted, unprocessed silver?

Pricing=subjective, in proportion to the wants or needs of the society combined with its value. Value=objective, proportional to the degree of labor

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>>132749998
I would love to be in a society that mutually respected and defended each other's property.

I don't see how any current society is like that.

The fact still stands, you are responsible for the protection of your own property.

>>132750335
>Your social system sucked because it didn't win a war that commies and capitalists al decided to get in on

Lol okay Berenthal. You should have, at least, listened to Patton. Now you're overrun with kikes supporting neo Bolshevik movements.

>be commie
>be unemployable
>be completely unable to land a private sector job
>have zero marketable skills
>>>yet think you are exploited

wealth = problem solving ability, not labor
cavemen put much more labor in their lives, and yet cavemen were on average unbelievably poorer than modern people, that perform much less labor
labor isnt value
value comes out of problem solving ability, not manual labor

you dont see pilots complaining in capitalism, neither do doctors, neither do engineers, neither does anyone useful
only people that think they are exploited are... street sweepers, janitors, fucking fast food servers, utterly worthless scum that demands minwage while being overpaid for their welfare tier job that people simply do not need as much as they think they are needed

commies: you arent being exploited
you are just fucking worthless and you want to grab the wealth of much smarter and harder working, much more productive people

>>132750792
>That photo
Made be kek, desu.

>>132750739
>what is the value, in the actual world, of a piece of undiscovered, un-extracted, unprocessed silver?
Whatever the market says the price is. It depends on how much is available. It depends on the demand for the product.

>>132750792
>pic
T-that's an AR tho...

>>132750352
>Prints money continuously diluting any profit companies can make
>Uses this money for redistribution towards the workers
>Constant wage raises by government law

It's exactly what you're advocating for. Means of production are managed by someone, but the profits are shared between the population in form of inflation, so ultimately it's the democratic power what decides what the means of production are supposed to do.

>2. Yes, that is what happens in every country that attempts socialism in a capitalist world.

And it happens because socialism is shit by comparison. People would not be able to escape socialism if it was the only option available, so yeah, you need the whole world to be socialist. The moment one country decides not to go with your flow talent and brains start flying away and you're left with mediocrity.

There's a reason you built the Berlin wall and shot anyone that tried to cross.

>>132750857
Your ideology needs war. It's based on bullying, coercion and tremendous state power. Once the first few years of growth after stealing from others fiddle away, you need to start looking for enemies everywhere.

That's where you invade Poland, that's where you get the rest of the world afraid of what you might do next, that's when you get blown the fuck out.

>>132750792
The one you live in. No one can go in to your house while you're away and claim it as their own. They'll face legal ramifications that they can't run from (maybe they can, but you'll get your property back).

>Your responsible for your property
No one is arguing that. What's being argued is societies without these systems in place goes to shit. Its how they came about it the first place. I can't lay a claim to an acre of your land because I have a gun and you don't. Your government will force me to give it back to you.

>>132750879
>wealth = problem solving ability, not labor

You expect me to believe Donald Trump got all of his wealth from his incredible problem solving abilities? Mk bud. No. "Problem solving abilities", "risk", "rugged ambition", etc. These are just the newest in the long line of fancy-sounding phrases to justify undeserved power. 1,000 years ago, you'd be using the phrases "godly ordination", "magnificence" "anointed" etc. to justify the king hoarding all his serfs crops.

>utterly worthless
If it's utterly worthless then how come your capitalist idols lose their shit entirely when those people go on a strike? Apparently janitors and fast food servers are "worthless", meaning they aren't adding anything to society, meaning they should just fire them anyway. Right?

You are a dumb autistic teenager who still thinks as long as you get a STEM degree after your graduate high school you'll have a white picket fence waiting for you. Enjoy being "worthless" at Starbucks.

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>>132750739
>undiscovered

With the criteria, it's in the same category of non-existence. Things that don't exist cannot be valued, for to be valued they must exist in some sense. Putting a value of 0 would also be incorrect.

I think I understand what you're getting at. All things require labor to gain value or price.

Labor is step 1 in all valuation, price, creation, action, etc.

I don't see how value can be objective cardinally (independent number assigned to it), but I can understand objective ordinal value (number compared to a different number).

>>132751466

see

>>132747131

>>132751131
How is the market going to set a price on something undiscovered?

Also, again, you're conflating price with value. As capitalists always do. I am not asking what its price would be; such is the interest only of the capitalist, who lives and breathes the legal fiction of money. I am asking what its value is. Two different things.

>>132746371
To be fair I studied Communism and other political doctrines in my pHD. I read Marx etc..I get what they MEAN with their idea, but I don't see how it will work from the 2nd to 3rd stage.

Once the Proletariat is the new ruling class..what will make EM resign and make the state slowly decease?

I don't get what will be the PRACTICAL way, I understand the THEORY but I don't see how it is possible to have this major collective push in towards this communistic society wwithout having personal interests influencing it.

As we saw in Russia with Stalin.

The initial ideas of Lenin were immediately changed when the REALITY kicked in. Already in 1917 the Bolsheviks had to change thigns in their plans because reality won't make it all easya s Marx wrote in his writings, the proletariat isn't a huge hivemind with a common aim, its jsut a bunch of utopistic theories.

Marx wa s adouche. he called Proudhon and Saint- Louis and Witley "Utopists" when he was an Utopist too...so much for your "scientific socialism".

>>132751707
>conflating price with value.

prices are determined by the valuation of the parties involved.

>>132751425
You're forgetting that in magical land of ANCApistania everyone will voluntarily adhere to whichever variant of NAP that anon decides to pull out of his ass.

>>132751378
>It's exactly what you're advocating for

No, it isn't. I am in favor of worker self-control, not Keynesian capitalism.

>socialism is shit by comparison

You apparently don't have the slightest clue what socialism even is, confusing it with Bernie Sanders-type Keynesian policies, so your conclusion is following a false premise.

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>>132751707
>How is the market going to set a price on something undiscovered?
Well, you're asking me to price a purely hypothetical commodity! You say "undiscovered" then complain that the market can't value (and/or price) the said commodity because it doesn't exist.

No wonder you're so confused.

Why ancaps? I find it is the libertarian flag posters that are crypto-kikes more often

>>132751959
>everyone will voluntarily adhere to whichever variant of NAP that anon decides to pull out of his ass.

Rights deserve protection: they're not protected on their own. We refer to protection agencies for a reason.

>>132751378
>Quickly become a large producer nation
>Don't rely on banks
>World freaks out when you want the Rhineland back
>World freaks out when you want Danzig back
>Take it anyway, it was yours
>Omg NAZI WORLD DOMINATION
>Literally did nothing to the US, years before Pearl Harbor your progressive president wants war
>Churchill admits thier goals aren't just to smash the German State, but the German people
>Create the military industrial complex, one of the world's biggest profit machines
>It never dies, and now you're the one perpetually at war because profit driven companies like to profit

>>132746797
Raead it you lazy fuck. The manifesto sums up his 1848 ideas (later changed) and its just 30 pages long (small pages on top of it).

Pretty welll written, he has some great intuitions.

His "plan" to fix the problems are retarded tought.

But read it. Its interesting for ALL to read. As much as everyone should read Mein kempf too.

>>132747700
this

the roads meme really activates my almonds

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>>132751959
Absolutely not.

That why people who voluntarily choose to be violent shall be physically removed, so to speak.

>>132751853
Marx was an agent of capitalism whose mission was to subvert these other socialists.

Look up Miles Mathis for further information.

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>i.t.t., followers of dualistic philisosophy practising economics as their religion

>>132741703
(((ancaps)))

>>132752274
kek

>>132752120
And all of these privately owned protection agencies will be filled with perfectly moral people each of whom will perfectly adhere to some variant of NAP? There's absolutely no way it'll turn out to be the same as medieval mercenary companies in Europe most of whom figured out that the best thing is to go in business for themselves and devolved into common thugs and robbers?

>>132751488
You're *almost* exactly right.

Of course certain things have intrinsic value; but value can only be *added* by labor, according to Marxian economics. The undiscovered piece of gold accrues value upon its discovery. Upon its extraction, even more value is added. Process it, more value again.

It's not that something has no value without labor; it's that labor is the only thing which can *add* value to anything.

>>132751466
all the leftists i've ever seen were utterly worthless, pityful, disgusting individuals that exist solely thanks to welfare, rainbow haired freaks that poses absolutely zero marketable skills

>my underwater basket weaving diploma didnt net me a yacht, i am being exploited!
>fat is beautiful, we are all beautiful, you are just a racist (how did we even get to racism all of a sudden, you dont even know when dealing with leftists)
>i dont care that physics say there's not infinite resources for everyone to have infinite of everything, common sense is fascist!

ask leftists how did zimbabwe go to shit, they go mute
oppressed blacks butchered their oppressive rhodesian masters, and everyone was worse off for it
zimbabwe has much higher murder, rape, and poverty rates than evil racist rhodesia, and yet over half of the country, especially blacks, want to return to rhodesia, but all they get instead are car tires around their necks while they are set on fire

oh well
leftism will never be able to explain this
because leftism is mental gymnastics of the jealous and unproductive

>>132741703

Roads are a form of upward wealth redistribution. Who pays for the roads? It's the common man with his tax money. Who uses the roads for profit? The corporations who are in bed with the politicians. Roads are an artifact of oppression.

>>132752120
Protection agencies will take the place of a governing body. What are you going to do about it? They'd be much more powerful than you. They can just take at that point. Then you'd have to hire another agency and hope that, if they win, they won't do the same.

>>132752262
Yet someone will have to decide who is violent in accordance to NAP and who isn't. Without states and state enforced judicial systems. And, of course, it will not in a million years devolve into might makes right post-apocalyptic mad max universe.

>>132751853
I think your understanding of Lenin is the popular one, but I find it deeply flawed. Lenin was a traitor from the very beginning. If you read his earliest public writings, he was already foreshadowing vanguardism, which is why much of the left-communists rejected him. Then, as the revolution neared closer, he wrote State and Revolution, which seemed to gloss over that and sounded very left-communist and anti-authoritarian, which got him back in the good graces of the worker councils just long enough to take power and do what he always wanted: the dictatorship of the ivory tower.

I don't agree with everything Marx has ever said. I don't agree with everything anyone has ever said. But Capital is still necessary reading. His critique of capitalism is indispensable.

>>132751945
Are they? Do the valuations of the workers whose labor produced the product or service get a say?

Of course not. Because capitalism is an authoritarian system.

>>132751995
You democratically decide to let some people take care of certain responsibilities within the factories, then share the profits accordingly, in this case through salary, inflation of savings and with price controls.

How is your branch of communism different? What would you do instead? 1 or 2 irrelevant changes that have absolutely nothing to do with how wealth is built?

>No but listen, my workers would wear orange instead of black so it would be totally different, we would be way richer

Claiming Venezuela is Keynessianism because it picks a few parts of a mixed economy theory? Funny it precisely picks the parts that are common with the ones described in the communist manifesto

>>132752121
>World freaks out because a country is starting to invade its peaceful neighbors

No shit.

>Don't rely on banks

Just the central bank, literally the inventor of jewish economics

>>132752064
>confuses price with value

Already answered this non-objection but too lazy to find the post. Scroll up and find it

>>132742309
Somalia is also a low IQ area with a shitty culture and education that is unable to support substancial economic growth

>>132752262
By who? Your protection agencies, assuming that the violent guy can't just hire them out to purge your community if they store out against you. In this system, everything hinges on how much money you can throw at the dudes with guns.

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>>132752507
The water bottle in the desert scenario makes me question whether labor is the only thing that can add value.

If you have a bottle of water in civilization where tap water is cheap, water is everywhere, and they got free water fountains and shit, it's very low value.

In a desert, that bottle of water is extremely valuable.

Change the situation, and the value changes.

>>132752530
As I said: high school kid who is about to get BTFO after he gets his chemistry or engineering bachelor's. It's ok, you just don't know yet. Get back at me in 4 years and I'll help you unionize whatever "worthless" business you're being ripped off by.

>>132741703
Erybody who believes in pic related: go to fucking rural CCCP.
We like roads.

>>132753195
Son, people didn't come up with the idea of states and state enforced rules because they were bored and wanted to experiment. They arose out of necessity. Are they perfect? No. Is there place for improvement? Yes. But blaming the situation in Somalia on IQ instead of basic human nature is a fallacy.

free market is fair and meritocratic
ever met a poor person that had a great work ethic, intellect, problem solving ability, analytical thinking, willpower to deny instant self gratification and so on?
no
in our society, poverty is almost exclusively reserved for worthless retards that deserve to be poor
for pretentious art school losers that think their hobby is oh so great, completely oblivious that no one cares, and no one wants to volunteer any money for the service they provide
for the stupid or unproductive, who can not compete with smarter or prodictive individuals, for physical resources which are limited by the unbreakable, uncheatable, absolute rules of physics that have zero bullshit policy towards shirkers

free market is already honest and equal and meritocratic
you filthy commies just dont have any personal responsibility, and no one out there is awaiting for you, yes specifically you, to give you infinite chances and infinite opportunities, to 'get inspired' or 'find yourself' or whatever the fuck you trendy leftist scum are doing with your life in your 20ies

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>>132742309
>I need my comfort otherwise I cry

go to jail for having a sex doll, you''ll get your comfy bed free of charge

>>132753535
So what system would work in Somalia then?

You still haven't explained that. Because you know perfectly well we will bring a country in Africa with said system, either present or historically, and it will be even worse than Somalia.

>>132753045
>Your peaceful neighbor that has many of your cities
One sided international treaties will fuck a nice guys day up.

>Not knowing that the Reichsbank was overhauled, and stopped running credit systems of debt
This has been debunked several times.

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>>132741703
Jews are collectivist. Anarchy is the absolute opposite of collectivism.

>>132747938
Kek.

Too bad so many fags don't get this meme

>>132749125
(you)

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>>132753327
why did more fair and equal zimbabwe do worse than 'rayciss, oppressive, ebil' rhodesia
werent people more equal in zimbabwe
werent people less exploited in zimbabwe

wtf how did zimbabwe do worse than rhodesia?? they massacred all the whites!! niggers literally achieved communism, how did it all go so bad????????????

i want a leftist opinion on this so bad

>>132750739
>what is the value, in the actual world, of a piece of undiscovered, un-extracted, unprocessed silver?
Fairly high. You can sell terrain that has high chances of holding raw materials for a good value. This is what you're paying for in that case: the yet undiscovered but likely materials.

That's how some guy conned Areva by the way, by planting some uranium on a site and then selling it to them.

>>132747917
The Jews are collectivists. They would almost surely hate AnCaps

>>132754051
Right wing jews are cool
Left wing jews are cancer

>>132752274
This

>>132753045
Dude, what I would do instead is socialism.

>worker control of the means of production

Not

>bureaucratic interference to try to help the workers feel less shitty

>>132753241

That would still fall in line with intrinsic, or natural, value; obviously material conditions at a time or place will effect their intrinsic value, as your illustration points out. A need - like a bottle of water when you're dying in the desert - has intrinsic value. It still remains true that in order to add to that intrinsic value, however, labor of some kind would be required.

Also, perhaps more importantly, at best this is a paradox that works both ways as far as the relationship between value and pricing. So, to a homeless man suffering malnutrition, a loaf of bread in the shop he stands in front of has infinitely more value than it does to the millionaire down the street; yet the price of the bread is the same for both. If value is purely subjective based on utility, shouldn't the prices be different for the two?

Croats are now the most abhorrent posters on this board. Nothing they say has any value. Range ban Croatia pls

>>132753713
>So what system would work in Somalia then?
Etho-based parliamentary democracy but only after we give trhem time to redraw the map.

>Because you know perfectly well we will bring a country in Africa with said system, either present or historically, and it will be even worse than Somalia.
But you conveniently forget the fact that borders drawn with a ruler on a map left different ethnic groups split between several countries and (even worse) historically adverse ethic groups clumped together in one country. Before you accuse me of being a regressive left retard and blaming everything on colonialism, you must admit that putting two tribes that historically hate each other's guts because they always competed for resources into one country is idiotic. It isn't possible to turn back time and fix that mistake but you cannot seriously make an argument that africans having to start from that clusterfuck position are historically in the same boat as we europeans were when we were figuring those things out.

>>132753819
>One sided international treaties will fuck a nice guys day up.

Yeah, I guess the vast expansion of military budget during the first years was because your system does not lead to war.

It's not like your system of autarky inherently demands for border expansion or anything.

Your system was entirely based on coercion, on subjecting people to arbitrarily lose members of their family, on bullying entrepreneurs into working for the "good of the country", on aggregate demand economics with initial boosts (just like when governments start spending like crazy) and disastrous long term results.

It, indeed, leads to war.

>>132753997
Meh. I mean I could go on about "ok, what's the value of the terrain prior to its chances of holding raw materials is discovered via labor". Either way, I think the point is pretty indisputable: the more labor that goes into something, the more value it accrues. Beyond intrinsic value, labor is the only thing which can add value - that is, the surplus value. Which means in the capitalist relationship, the capitalist plays a parasitic role - item has value, laborer adds value, capitalist hoards added value and distributes it as he sees fit, based purely on claimed property rights over the means of production.

TL;DR It's just classic labor theory of value bro

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>>132754246
That's true of every group. However, Jews are responsible for Marxist theory. Their Jews on top Goyim on bottom ideology is pretty prevalent.

>>132754369
Have you ever ran a business?

Clearly not. You would get scammed into bankrupcy with that fucking philosohpy.

If you bake some bread, you had to:
- Pay for the base materials (wheat, flour etc)
- Pay for the tools such as oven, etc
- Pay for utilities such as electricity & water
- Pay for someone's time to produce the bread
- Pay for someone's time to sell the bread
- Pay for company management
- Pay for shitty government taxes
- Save for future expansion or improvements

It means that you have to set the price at a point where it can account for these and yet remain low enough so most people can afford it and buy it.

>>132754837
>A Jewish guy does something
>"The Jews" did it

ancaps are all about personal responsibility
commies are all against personal responsibility

ancap will tell you to leave him alone
commie will come in violent mob to not leave you alone

ancap will give you a plot of land and tell you to grow your own food
commie will take your plot of land and still starve because he is simply shittier at growing food than you

ancaps are fundamentaly defensive and therefore good guys
commies are fundamentally homeless invaders that always burn their house down and then want to invade another one

>every time we get on a continent and kill like 50 million people, it wasnt true communism, we dindu nuffin, gibs us more continents u rayciss faycissts muh oppression wah waaahh

>>132754615
Before those lines were drawn, they wuz kangz and shiet?

Nah, they needed to have 14 children so 1 of them could survive.

This is all related to IQ, there's no system that could work in Somalia, these are people who don't recognize themselves on mirrors, they're just not capable of running a country successfuly under any system.

Multiple ideologies have been tried in Africa and funnily enough, those places that have a more capitalist, rule of law formula are the ones that are not 100% shitholes, for example, Botswana.

To claim that a country exposed to multiple warlords tirany in constant conflict with each other due to a socialist failure is ancap is knowing absolutely nothing about what we advocate for.

Perhaps you could even say that, like Marx, we need a bit of state/monarchy capitalism before we implement our ideology, I would not have problem admitting that.

>>132754927
I have no desire to rob laborers' of the surplus value they create, so no, I am opposed to running a capitalist business, as should anyone.

>lists stuff owners have to pay for

Yes. And the only way they can pay all of that is thanks to labor. And as far as "save for future expansion or improvements", i.e. profit, laborers should have a say in what happens to the value they create. "I'm the boss so I decide" is an authoritarian mindset, which is why ancap has never been and never will be anarchist.

>>132755311
So run a cooperative instead, nobody forbids you.

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We did it, bringing the ancoms and ancaps together, to fight an endless autistic war over utopic jewish abstractions.
They will no longer be a threat to nationalist /pol/

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>>132755027
Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin...Jews.

The Council of the People's Commissars
>Economic Council - Jew
>Food - Jew
> Army and Navy - Jew
>State Control - Jew
>State Lands - Jew
>Works - Jew
>Social Relief - Jew
>Religions - Jew
>Interior - Jew
>Hygiene - Jew
>Press - Jew
>Elections - Jew
>Justice - Jew
>Refugees - Jew
>Refugees (assist.) - Jew
>Refugees (assist.) - Jew

Central Executive Committee
>Sverdlov (president) - Jew
>Babtchinski - Jew
>Weinberg -Jew
>Gailiss - Jew
>Ganzburg - Jew
I could go on and fucking on and fucking on but you get the idea.

>>132755502
your collectivist white nationalism without ancap principles will degrade into a swamp of toothless double digit iq welfare rabble unable to produce toiler paper, a perfect jewish colony
hell half of modern day neonazi movements are face tattooed cia and mossad agents precisely because just like the commies, all they care about is the least common denominator and nothing else

>>132755411
Ah, but Marxian economics isn't a critique of individual businesses. It is an analysis of the total value in capitalist economies; the LTV doesn't just operate at the business level, but applies to the entirety of labor and production in any and every market. So while building coops can be beneficial in terms of "hatching the new system within the hen of the old", and is a more ethical system, it will still fail to solve the global problem. Profit and the wage system must be abolished at every level in order for coops to ever "work" as they should; otherwise, its just one guy playing fair competing against another guy who has no problem cheating his way to "growth" via command of the stolen surplus.

>>132755311
If there is no owner, then a substancial drop in business income must automatically mean a drop in worker wages (just like it can happen with business owners)

In a capitalistic system, a business owner always has to pay operating costs & worker wages even before if he knows if he is going to get money for himself.

Worker cooperatives have an incentive to provide bigger wages for themselves and scatter as soon as trouble knocks on the door.

As a worker you already work your ass off for hours to produce a good and then you must also spend additional hours and participate in a democratic system of management? You sure like spending your life at the workplace.

>>132756004
>Jewish guys did some stuff
>"The Jews" did it

>>132755238
>Before those lines were drawn, they wuz kangz and shiet?
Where did I state that?
>Nah, they needed to have 14 children so 1 of them could survive.
So did europeans of the past
>This is all related to IQ, there's no system that could work in Somalia, these are people who don't recognize themselves on mirrors, they're just not capable of running a country successfuly under any system.
Has anyone tried the hands off and no intervention system so they puzzle it out on their own?
>This is all related to IQ, there's no system that could work in Somalia, these are people who don't recognize themselves on mirrors, they're just not capable of running a country successfuly under any system.
Again, you cannot wave the magic wand and erase interference from the white people.
>To claim that a country exposed to multiple warlords tirany in constant conflict with each other due to a socialist failure is ancap is knowing absolutely nothing about what we advocate for.
It is. You guys want to wave some magic wand and go against whole of history of humanity which lead us from every man for himself cavemen to today's nation states, sprinkle the magic NAP dust on it and call it a day. You want to de-evolve modern society. Somalia ATM is a de-evolved modern society.
>Perhaps you could even say that, like Marx, we need a bit of state/monarchy capitalism before we implement our ideology, I would not have problem admitting that.
No. Marx was smoking some pretty magic tobacco and so are you guys.

Sorry but ancapistan magic land that solves all problems by having everyone become 100% good and moral and NAP compliant all by themselves is a beautiful pipe-dream just as that one true communism that is yet to be tried out.

Maybe I presented my opinion in a wrong way. I'm not a priori against ancap but as a realist I cannot see it as anything different than some dreamed up utopia just as communism.

>>132755502
You sure you want that?

When ancaps fight ancoms it's basically a race to the top of the authoritarian scale of the political spectrum.

Natsocs and ancaps can be suprisingly good allies when fighting commies.

>>132756231
Hahaha Okay...you're trolling. Good one.

>>132756179
You can solve the global problem leading by example.

You either believe your system is appealing to most when tried, in which case you should be all working in cooperatives and showing the world how wrong they are, or you know the other system is superior but you still want to go back into the stone age just so you can get your position in the politiburo.

You claim that it is cheating, but fail to realize there's production and then there's consumption, which evens the field.

If Im "cheated" 100$ of my salary but thanks to that products cost 10 times less...

Does libertarianism just stem from immaturity of not liking goberment and respecting authority?

I understand why people would be libertarians in today's age, but if the government was theoretically working in your interest and the society at large why would you go against that?

>>132756211
Yes, you are correct on the first part, at least if we're talking market socialism. The risk is evenly distributed.

A worker always has to work under capitalism before he knows if he's going to get his wages or not - and this problem would be much, much worse without the state.

Worker cooperatives do indeed have an incentive to pay themselves what they earned rather than allow an authoritarian to spend it on what he deems fit - usually expansion and, of course, bonuses for himself.

>democracy is too much hassle anyway, don't worry yourself over such and let the boss handle it

said King Louis XVI

>>132756949

Governments don't act in your interest when they become powerful enough, they're coming from a good place.

>>132756231
But you for (you) I will go on
>Danichevski Jew
>Sachs Jew
>Scheinmann Jew
>Erdling Jew
>Landauer Jew
>Linder Jew
>Dimanstein Jew
>Ermann Jew
>Joffe Jew
>Karkline Jew
>Knigissen Jew
>Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
>Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
>KrassikofSachs Jew
>Kaprik Jew
>Latsis Jew
>Lander Jew
>Roudzoutas Jew
>Rosine Jew
>Smidovitch Jew
>Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
>Sosnovski Jew
>Skrytnik Jew
>Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
>Teodorovitch Jew
>Ouritski Jew
>Feldmann Jew
>Froumkine Jew
>Scheikmann Jew
>Rosental Jew
>Rose Jew
>Sobelson (Radek) Jew
>Sclichter Jew
>Schikolini Jew
>Chklianski Jew
>Levine (Pravdine) Jew

Extraordinary Commission of Moscow:

>Chklovski Jew
>Kheifiss Jew
>Zeistine Jew
>Razmirovitch Jew
>Kronberg Jew
>Khaikina Jewess
>Schaumann Jew
>Leontovitch Jew
>Jacob Goldine Jew
>Glaperstein Jew
>Kniggisen Jew
>Schillenkuss Jew
>Delafabre Jew
>Tsitkine Jew
>Roskirovitch Jew
>G. Sverdlof Jew
>Biesenski Jew
>Blioumkine Jew
>I. Model Jew
>Routenberg Jew
>Pines Jew
>Sachs Jew
>Liebert Jew

>>132756304
>Interference from the white people

Don't get me wrong, I'm all against interfering with Africa, let them raise themselves out of poverty if they know how, but without our intervention they would be much worse off.

>which lead us from every man for himself cavemen to today's nation states

It also leaded us to slavery, pillaging and rape, our average IQ growing 50 points in the last 4 centuries, etc.

The state is going to be outdated eventually, it will be seen like we see slavery today, improvements in technology is going to make it possible.

>Sorry but ancapistan magic land that solves all problems by having everyone become 100% good and moral and NAP compliant

Strawman. How many people who commit crimes do you know? I could name 100 at least if hard pressed, and I don't even know that many people.

The state does not seem to need 100% good and moral state followers, neither does the NAP.

The implementation of ancap that I defend is through the creation of private cities, with their own rules and way of enforcing them. If you're going to attack our perspective at least acknowledge what we advocate for.

>>132756770
I've just outlined precisely why it is impossible to "lead by example" and Marx himself knew this, which was why he tepidly supported cooperatives but never considered them to be an agent of what was necessary to free the working class and open the world of abundance which automation was beginning to make possible.

>he co-operative factories run by workers themselves are, within the old form, the first examples of the emergence of a new form, even though they naturally reproduce in all cases, in their present organization, all the defects of the existing system, and must reproduce them. But the opposition between capital and labour is abolished there, even if at first only in the form that the workers in association become their own capitalists, i.e., they use the means of production to valorise their labour.

Karl Marx, Capital Volume 3

Everything else you said is either nonsense or a non-sequitur and thus merits no response.

>>132757257
>Gish Gallop of Jews (who knows if they even all are, you guys get caught lying about it all the time)
>"The Jews" did it

>>132741703
this board was libertarian b4 it became collectivist bullshit, natsoc

Also, less govt = less jews controlling

>>132756949
It comes from understanding that if I gave you a wand that could turn our enemies into chicken I better start stretching to pour eggs out of my asshole.

You cannot give someone the power to do something and pretend he's not going to use it against you eventually. In your case, you advocate for coercion against a great part of the population who would despise your regime, this creates counter-culture and eventually ends up with the opposite results. The bigger the coercion, the bigger the knee-jerk reaction.

>>132753027
>Do the valuations of the workers whose labor produced the product or service get a say?

Yes, they can choose to sell their labor now to the capitalist and get paid for their labor at a discount or save their labor for their own uses and reap a higher return at a later date.

The capitalist gets paid last, senpai. They provide the resources for your sorry ass to have a job to begin with. You can always start your own business.

>>132757554
>but without our intervention they would be much worse off.
IDK. Interfering is already done and cannot be undone. And we know, with a 100% certainty, that even the most benevolent contact between technologically disparate groups will end up with the less developed one being fucked. Gibs of anything to help out the less fortunate ends with them being unmotivated to claw their way to a better position.
>It also leaded us to slavery, pillaging and rape, our average IQ growing 50 points in the last 4 centuries, etc.
Yes. We had the luxury of developing without great societal leaps and technological leaps being forced upon us. Stand up -> walk -> run. Imagine being denied the opportunity to make mistakes and learn from them.
>The state is going to be outdated eventually, it will be seen like we see slavery today, improvements in technology is going to make it possible.
IDK that and neither do you. I hope we will continue getting better before we wipe the whole planet in some catastrophic war and end up back in the stone age.
>Strawman. How many people who commit crimes do you know? I could name 100 at least if hard pressed, and I don't even know that many people. The state does not seem to need 100% good and moral state followers, neither does the NAP. The implementation of ancap that I defend is through the creation of private cities, with their own rules and way of enforcing them. If you're going to attack our perspective at least acknowledge what we advocate for.
Not a strawman. A lot of people would commit crimes if there weren't any fear of punishment and social stigma. Ancap is a pipe dream. At least in the foreseeable future. And, FYI, advocating city states is again, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, forcibly taking society back to a previous state. City states and regions banded together in the time of national awakening for a reason. You cannot forcibly undo it.

>>132758272

>authoritarian system is self-justifying but I'll put "anarcho" in my title

>provide the resources

Yes, via capital. I.E. surplus value. I.E. robbery.

If the asses of the working class are so sorry, one is perplexed as to *why* all these employers need us to come work for them so bad, eh? Could it be because for all the handwringing of brainwashed Mises Institute addicts that they *know* value is created by labor, and that their sorry ass facilities and sorry ass machines are nothing without people doing the labor required to produce anything?

Naw, of course not. They deserve to rob their employees, because they took a risk. Or because they had the vision. Or because they are titans of industry. Or because they are born leaders. Or because they are ordained by God to rule the serfs. Or because they will defend us when the Saxons invade.

Etc. etc. etc. Apologetics for authoritarian power are a game of madlibs; change some nouns and verbs, but the argument is always the same.

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>He calls himself a national (((socialist)))

come home white man

>>132747875

moot was pissed at racism, no one said /pol/ was not racist.

>>132758982
>back to a previous state
It being previous state does not necessarily mean it's wrong.

Today we still have some city states and they work perfectly fine.

There's a major difference though, in anarcho capitalism these cities would replace social contract for actual contracts, making it so everyone is equal against the law and no entity is above the law, which would be an incredible step towards sustainability of systems and a meritocracy of ideologies.

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>>132760194
You made my day kek

>>132757638
So what is necessary to free the working class is to expand to the world a model that does not work well in comparison with Capitalism. Okay.

>Everything else you said is either nonsense or a non-sequitur and thus merits no response.

I guess it's easier to label one of the most common criticisms of Marxism as non-sequitur than to address it.

Because it is a fact that you advocate for a model that leads to lower productivity (demonstrated by the fact that cooperatives don't work well) so the workers can gain better status within their factories, but you seem oblivious as to what happens when this better status starts affecting negatively the accessibility to wealth.

Cooperatives don't work because what they produce is more expensive, because they produce less, and that's undermining the access to goods in your system, congrats, you make the same as your boss, but you can't even acquire half as many goods as you could before...

>>132747700
Who's gonna pay for all that road? Will every company install tollbooths on their roads to pay for their maintenance?

>>132760495
>It being previous state does not necessarily mean it's wrong.
As a general principle, your statement is correct. Still, that way of societal order has passed to the garbage heap of history and nowadays we have nation-states as the norm.
>Today we still have some city states and they work perfectly fine.
But each and every one of them is siamesed to some host nation-state in more ways than one.
>in anarcho capitalism these cities would replace social contract for actual contracts, making it so everyone is equal against the law and no entity is above the law, which would be an incredible step towards sustainability of systems and a meritocracy of ideologies.
Again, I'm a pragmatist first and foremost. Replacing a social contract with a shitload of contracts (one with every person you know) to have the same effect is, well, funny to be mild. IK current system isn't perfect. Nothing ever was and nothing ever will be. ANCAP is subject to same failings as any other societal system. For every 1 person trying to improve it, there will be at least 10 finding ways to game the system. Welcome to the reality of human nature. Maybe in a 100-200k years ancap will be viable.

Why don't these ancaps take all their bitcoin money and buy and Island and start a country and see just how things work out hey?

>>132742309
Somalia was a failed state, not an anarchy. In fact, there are multiple different governments competing for power.

>>132757758
But, the Jews literally did it. I'm not saying every Jew was a top Soviet but a majority of top Soviets were Jews following a Jewish ideology. Besides, I'm a Libertarian Nationalist. I don't hate Jews. I don't want them dead. I want to see them moved to Israel.

>>132744872
The labor theory of value has been debunked, so the "surplus value of labor" argument is completely retarded.

>>132764638
>failed state
>not an anarchy
Not an argument, Stephan.

>>132766717
>forgets to mention the rest of my comment
>seems to think that multiple governments means anarchy

>>132767179
Warlords are not governments, Stephan.

>>132767312
Are you retarded? A quick google search will show that Somalia is not an anarchy.

>>132767312
It's a military dictatorship, how is this not a government? How is a fucking junta ancap? Please tell me you're larping as a retard.

>>132741703
Where are my shekels you stupid goy.

>>132761118
Tollbooths or cameras who snap a pic of your license plate and send you a fine if you lack a license to use the road. If you use it, you pay. If you don't use it, you don't pay competition means better quality etc etc.

>>132750026
so a computer made in the 1980s is still as valuable if it hasn't been used?

>>132767675
>Somalia is not an anarchy
Sure

>>132768227
>It's a military dictatorship
Just because your warlord isn't the biggest bully on the playground, doesn't mean that somalia isn't an anarchy.

>>132746457
the fucking chirstcucks are just as bad if not worse. Why stupid religion threads are allowed are beyond me since they have nothing to do with politics.

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>>132757758
they have a high verbal IQ, so don't be ashamed if you got fooled

>>132769278
>It doesn't fit my particular definition of what a government is, so it's anarchy :)

What does government and anarchy mean to you? Seems like you purposefully hold an erratic view of what anarchy and government is to win this shitty semantics arguement.

>>132769592
True, post-Stalin the Jews decline because Stalin killed more than (((Hitler ever did))), but Lenin said anti-semitism was as bad as counter-revolution.

>>132754761
Except, you know, if you're gonna classify even showing up with Geiger counter as "labor" enough to justify value, then I'm gonna reply that a capitalist picking his investments is labor too, so he's not parasitic at all.

>>132754761
Besides, what if the terrain value suddenly doubles because the market price of uranium rose due to a shortage.
There's no added labour behind that increase in value.
>inb4 value is not price, it's just some ethereal quality that has no relation to the real world

>>132754761
labor theory of value is retarded.