Show this to any religious person and watch them literally fall

>>132073849
If a billionaire anti-theist could subject their child to a life inside a VR simulation with a constant morphine drip won't wouldn't he? The definition of "loving" in this case is poorly defined which casts doubt on the validity of the proof.

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followed the path down to "Then why is there Evil" -> "To test us"

Its not to test so much as to shape and mold us.
As for an analogy:

If you know have a pound of flour and you know its going to end up becoming bread then why even go through the whole process of making it then?

Ans: Because flour doesn't become bread with out an outside force working on the process.

>bracing myself for the fedora tipping

>>132073849
Does God enact Evil or does Man? Does Man want free will or not? Man has free will, man has the potential for Evil. The question is, would God want Man to prevent as much evil as possible, to most limit the possible evil enactable by all men?

>>132074324
>but instead he would rather have the child suffer horribly and die from cancer or get raped by a nigger
blew my almonds to stratosphere

>>132074361
>If you know have a pound of flour and you know its going to end up becoming bread then why even go through the whole process of making it then?

because God is all powerful, silly.


>>132075242
forger man made evil for a second and ask yourself if that's the only suffering there is (cancer, diseases, natural disasters)

>>132073849
Religion is used to give children a strong moral background. It's not meant to be taken 100% literally.

>>132073849
What if god allows freedom because he wants his children to forge their own paths, our ancestors (Adam and eve) chose to follow the words of the serpent and know the knowledge of good and evil, they became impure and were ejected from paradise onto the sin of the earth, arguably giving them much greater freedom

>>132075392
So no parent capable preventing all suffering is loving? I far as I know no parent has tried the VR morphine plan as of yet.

>>132075670
*capable of preventing all suffering...

>>132074324
>having a child to begin with

(in this logic)

>>132073849
Aquinas answers this
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm

>>132073849
This entire argument bases itself on the objectivity of Evil. The Nazis saw themselves as the great empire, sent to fix the world of all its wrongs. Everybody else saw the Nazis as evil.

Evil is a direct result of free will. As soon as somebody has free will, no matter how singly cohesive and perfect a group God creates, free will inevitably leads to differences in opinion. Initially minor, but as it becomes more experimented, these differences will separate people into opposing camps.

Free will => Dichotomy of Good and Evil. Trying to separate them into different concepts just because there are different words for those aspects of a singular thing is the fallacy here.

Religion is just Aesop's Fables in a different form. Shit you teach kids so the not-so-bright know not to kill people and shit.

>>132075833
In Epicurean logic pleasure=good so having a child that lives a life of pleasure with no suffering would be the ultimate good even if that strategy defies the Epicurean lifestyle.

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>>132075670
>>132075797
not not all loving but not all powerful.

>>132076027
Answering a questing with a question is rude. Answer mine first, and I'll hear your answer.

>>132075632
Pic related

>>132076125
>killing God's creations based on class and race is objectively good based on perspective

stopped reading there

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>>132073849
Hmmm. In the diagram if your replace "God" with "The Force" it kinda still works.

Good luck trying to convince neckbeards though.

>>132073849

>God is not good for not wanting to prevent evil

This is childish.


Humanity is God's child, and he has to sit back and let them learn.

>>132076185
If Epicurus is using a definition of loving other than the commonly understood definition then the proof itself becomes invalid until all the terms are properly defined. A proof with poorly defined terms is just esoteric mental masturbation.

>>132076136
Basically this

>>132073849
Religion was always just a scam to force people together and to centralize power so that larger community projects and civilized societies could form, THE HORROR

>>132073849
>Implying that preventing evil is good

Evil creates struggle and suffering. Suffering and conflict leads to evolution, Evolution leads to strength.

Now, stop misquoting Epicurus, you humanist scum and be sure to start loaning your body and wealth to Somalian immigrants.

https://egregores.wordpress.com/2009/06/29/the-mysterious-case-of-the-totally-bogus-epicurus-quote/

>>132076273
>objectively good based on perspective
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/objectively
Point 5 if you missed it. Being intimately tied to free will, good and evil are strictly subjective.

>>132075553
>forger man made evil for a second and ask yourself if that's the only suffering there is (cancer, diseases, natural disasters)

Why would God create a world where the goalposts can be moved like this? WTF I'm a fedora now.

>>132073849
God can be all loving and all evil. This realm and everything in it is material and fleeting. Think bigger faggots.

>>132073849
A universe without evil would preclude free will. Free Will means man has the right to choose his actions. Eliminating options would be a denial of free will.

>>132073849
Can't have free will without the ability to choose "evil". Also can't have free will if you have true knowledge. You would always infallibly choose the best course of action under any circumstance. Minimizing our capacity to live, learn and grow which is why humans are born and die in ignorance. Our understanding of reality is illusive, we only gain knowledge about the universe by minimizing human error through the scientific method, and can only understand god through faith. These are the conditions where free will can exist. And these conditions are optimal for spiritual growth to occur.

There is also the assumption in the infograph that god hasn't created another universe where free will doesn't exist.

>>132076185
It's in the form of question and answer you dolt

>>132073849
>can God prevent evil
No
>then he is not all powerful
Ok

Wow, I still believe in God. Weird.

>>132075553
>suffering = evil
explain

>>132073849
You can't have freewill without evil then it wouldn't be freewill

>>132075553
>forger man made evil for a second and ask yourself if that's the only suffering there is (cancer, diseases, natural disasters)
Are we presuming there is an afterlife?
Natural disasters helped create man, and helped man learn more about himself and nature, now man can predict the weather, because of such challenge. Disease is something of an exception and not a rule, and also has pushed man to find cure and master the body and medicine, and certain actions taken by man more and less allow disease.

>>132077081
Your God sounds like a cuck desu famerino

>>132073849
Wtf I hate flowcharts now

You're flying a NS flag so I'm sure you understand the NS ideology of Nature above all.

"Evil" is not natural, it does not exist in Nature, for nature is good. Anything that goes against Nature is "evil". No man is evil, his nature is not evil, though he may do evil things--partially due to his own nature, and partially due to the unnatural circumstances he's placed in (i.e. civlization). The Epicurean paradox you cite only applies to an omnipotent, omnicient god, not one that is those things but also omnipresent in space-time--that is, one who is not burdened by the domain of the three spacial dimensions and the time dimension. This is because a god who exists at every point in time does not see it fit to intervene at specific points in time because it would interrupt the natural flow of time. This god--being good--wouldn't intervene because it would be unnatural--therefore evil--to interrupt the natural--therefore rightful and good--flow of time.

>If God is all-knowing, he would know what we would do if we were tested, therefore no need to test us.

God does not "test" people in the conventional sense, in my opinion. Things that happen, bad or good, can be used to improve ourselves or not. This is in no way a singular test, rather, it is a test for all humanity. The jews are a good enough example. Did god send the jews to destroy western civilization, or did they do it on their own by their own psychotic nature? I posit that through their nature, they have cultivated themselves to be psycotic and paranoid in nature, inadvertently making them the great adversary for the Aryan race. This came about because a chain of events happened through the passage of time (not randomly, mind you, for something to happen randomly, there would have to be no reason for it to happen. Even if the reason is so simple as "this atom hit that atom a certain way" it is still a reason. Therefore, the enitre concept of randominity as a factor in the universe is entirely unscientific)

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>>132076185
>wants to argue about theology
>unfamiliar with Aquinas

>>132077242
My point is, does this disprove God? No, but it means God must be conceptualized in a different way.

>>132073849
>Man thinking he can outwit God.

So-called paradox makes the presumption that this is all about God and fails to take into account giving man freewill. All choices affect one another. Try looking through the other end of the looking glass, Alice.

>>132077092

he doesnt like it, so it is evil.

Shit is not complicated.

>>132076597
You were asking if a parent not capable of preventing all suffering isn't all loving.
I replied that in such particular case he's not all powerful, since if he was he would have prevented the suffering.
We are still on the first (no) bubble. No definitions were misunderstood by either of us.

>>132076758
I was just expanding your thought.

>>132076768
not an argument.
You didn't counter anything. (ie: le hat joke)

>>132077081
Burn the bible if you don't believe that God is all powerful, it's kinda written there 1 trillion times. DESU FAMPAI

>>132077092
Can God prevent suffering?
>Yes
Why doesn't he? - (He isn't loving)
>No - (He isn't all powerful)

so OP is really asking, why did God not only just make Heaven only, why did God not only just make perfect eternal immortal matrix/internet world

>>132073849

I don't agree with the longest line

Could god create free will without evil?
No.
Not because he isn't all powerful, but without the ability to make bad decisions, we would not have free will.

>>132077242
>"Evil" is not natural, it does not exist in Nature, for nature is good.
>uses computer
>hides behind this vaguely-defined concept of Nature, something a computer isn't
>uses a highly abstraction-capable language, which is definitely not natural

Actually, I think I'm onto something. Let alone, niggers never developed any language capable of expressing abstract concepts. Even the idea of precision isn't in most of them, except where white translators put in certain phrasings as being related to it (but they really aren't, when spoken by native speakers).

Niggers are the ultimate redpill.

>>132077529

This guys got his fedora on so tight he thinks believing in God makes you a christian.

No wonder you are an atheist, you are a myopic retard.

>>132077529
>hurr durr I don't know what Objective means
>lol I was just pretending to be a retard, you know, expanding your thought.

>>132076987
This anon gets it.

Once you realize that God and the universe are one in the same and that in order for the characteristic of omnipotence to hold true for God then both good and evil need to be present simultaneously, then you will realize that you're a fucking retard.

>>132076529
He's god. He doesn't have to sit back and let anyone do anything. Unless he isn't all powerful.
Isn't the bible full of stories where god bestowed wisdom on people? Why can't he endow everyone with all necessary wisdom from the moment of birth? Better question, why doesn't he when he knows full well it will cause suffering?

>>132076743
Why does god need evolution? If he's all powerful and all knowing, he could create the perfect beings without need for suffering.

>>132073849
your logic is Highly Flawed.

Signed, a PhD student in education

>>132076966
If he's all powerful, then why not create free will in an evil free world? That's like saying god is limiting free will because he doesn't allow humans to fly without machines.

>>132073849
Evil exists because off free will. You can have free will or you can have no evil. Don't forget evil is relative. What do the short term bumps we feel here matter in eternity. Both in the afterlife and your possible infinite progeny.

>>132077081
So why worship a god that isn't all powerful? Why not worship a more powerful deity?

>>132077861
because the source of evil is the human mind/thoughts which can act or not

>>132077574
For something to be evil, it has to go against nature. A computer does not go against nature. It doesn't hurt nature to build a computer. I should've expected that I'd have to explain that to some fuckwit.

nb4 "muh rare earth minerals", mining REMs out of mountains in Afghanistan or in space doesn't hurt anything.

>>132073849
Most important point that defeats this all is that God created the world with evil as a test for humans to prove and define themselves. It is what makes Muslims human trash and christians and peoplebofveuropean origin the most successful and superior culture and people.

>>132077112
Humans can't fly without machines. You don't have the freedom to choose to fly by taking a running leap. That's your logic.
If god was truly all powerful, then he could create a world without evil but with free will.

>>132077529
>Why doesn't he? - (He isn't loving)
Again you have yet to prove that suffering is evil in itself. Suffering contributes to growth of character and spirit. It would be unloving to prevent all suffering whatsoever. Have you seen what happens to kids with helicopter parents? They go out of their way to prevent all suffering and their children end up severely dysfunctional humans.

Everyone suffers. It is a natural phenomena, as much so as joy or happiness - phenomena which would not exist were it not for suffering as a counterpart.

>>132077529
>You were asking if a parent not capable of preventing all suffering isn't all loving.
>I replied that in such particular case he's not all powerful, since if he was he would have prevented the suffering.
>We are still on the first (no) bubble. No definitions were misunderstood by either of us.
You don't have to be all powerful to prevent all suffering in this case you simply need enough power which some people have. Is every parent in history unloving or not?

>>132076966 (Checked)
This. Also, remember that
ATHEISTS DON'T BELIEVE IN "EVIL" AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE!
(At least in an objective sense, from the ones I've talked to).

>>132077953
https://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=8393519

>>132077923

I wouldn't use the word worship, though it could be appropriate.

Also I'm not just picking the sexiest daddy it of the God-bag; I know my creator.

>>132077572
God not giving man the ability to fly without machines means we don't have the free will to choose whether to live on the ground or not without inventions. That's your logic.
If god was truly all powerful, he could create a world without evil but with free will.

>>132077951
so god made a flawed system that causes suffering on his people.
There goes all knowing.

>>132077923

Addendum: I find it interesting that an atheist like you necessarily believes in an all-powerful being. Like you can't wrap your head around a God that isn't all-powerful because somewhere deep down you stil believe that rubbish.

Deism gets around all this. He planned the big bang knowing life would evolve on different planets, with these conveniently placed life-giving suns at the center of solar systems and that was good enough. Stop being a drama queen about some life forms hurting other life forms, it's the universe not Heaven.

>>132078148
>without evil but with free will

how do you fathom that that is possible? In that world, what is stopping someone from raising a hammer above their head and bringing it down on someone elses head? If he is restricted from doing that then he doesn't have free will.

>>132073849
Pretty sure most if not all of the evil in this world comes from man acting against the will of God. To create a world without evil is to create a world with men without will.

>>132077989
>Kid who dies from cancer "contributes" to the development of his character

>>132078002
>You don't have to be all powerful to prevent all suffering
But if you are but you still don't then you are not loving.

>>132078082
>Checked
arbitrary random numbers are meaningful.
Theists in a nutshell. Also why I didn't nor will respond to your future replies. Enjoy Japan.

>>132077656
>le hat joke

>>132073849
This is why deism is the correct answer. There is a god, and he/she is truly omniscient, but indifferent to the plight of humanity.

evil is the absence of God

God allows us to choose to be with him or not

the choice is ours

>inb4 muh determinism

>>132078450
>God allows us to choose to be with him or not
>the choice is ours

cancer, genetic disease, natural disasters etc...

>>132078148
>free will
>physics
Maybe you should hit the books

>>132078396

Nice dodge, rookie. Back on track, I don't believe the bible. Your move.

It wont work on a Zoroastrian OP. You're a Persian shill

>>132078108
That was some of the most awful use of language I've ever seen. Word it better.

I guess you're saying that people aren't a part of nature. This is entirely wrong. Our species is the result of a process billions of years old, same as any other species. Everything from language and toolmaking to architecture and art are a result of what nature saw fit to give to Man. It only goes against nature when resources are exploited and people irreversably destroy a natural ecosystem, as is seen with cattle herders in the Amazon or overpopulation of negroes in Africa.

>>132073849
We are all pieces of a something that willingly decided to exist in a state where it could be subjected to evil.

We have no way to know why, maybe knowing why is mutually exclusive with being conscious, but we chose this.

Be grateful for this day, for a wonderful thing it is to be anything at all.

>>132078396
Cancer does contribute to the development of character. It may be unpleasant but all involved are affected.

>>132078396
>But if you are but you still don't then you are not loving.
Under that definition of loving no extremely wealthy parent is loving which contradicts the commonly understood definition of loving which brings us back to the problem of defining our terms.

>>132078148
Evil isn't a fucking naturally occurring element on the Periodic table, it's a subjective abstract concept. If you limit a being's ability to form thoughts on an abstract concept and act on these thoughts, which is what a world without evil would be, how do they have free will?

>>132078534
This isn't a thread about values or morals. It's about creation.
On a side note: if you need organized religion to be moral, guess what, you are a nigger.

>>132078605
... Go to an english class. Let me simplify my last message for you:
First you say kill is not good.
Then you say good is nature.
I say die is nature.
I say fight is nature.
I conclude kill is nature.
I ask if you think kill is nature is good.
I also ask if you think human kill human is bad.

>>132077777
Well, those are certainly the perfect digits!
Perfection isn't something that is comprehensible, or even really desirable, for an imperfect and fallible being like myself.
Humility is the best path towards enlightenment.
Remember the words of Socrates:
"One thing I know, that I know nothing."

>>132075242
God enacts both good and evil, because the opposition of these two forces makes us capable of being conscious of them. Evil isn't actually "evil," just like losing a game doesn't mean it wasn't fun to play. We need it as an anchor point, a way to give our reality structure and meaning.

...it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

>>132073849

>Evil Exists

stopped right there

>>132077777
Oh my, those holy digits.

>>132078707
>wealthy parent
you went off topic there. We are talking about God or lack thereof.

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>>132073849
C'mon, I didn't even have to try very hard to tear this one apart.

What is with these athecuck threads being spammed on /pol/ lately?

>>132077777
A perfect being, that does not suffer, could probably not gain consciousness.

>>132077777
have my children

>if god was all powerful then we would know definitively that he is real

whoah dude i just proved that god is not all powerful!!!!11

>Fedora logic

>>132078669
Nice job anon you did a good job taking off his fedora :^)

>>132078752
>First you say kill is not good.
never said killing is bad

the entire premise of this argument is dead then.

>I ask if you think kill is nature is good.
this makes no grammatical sense

>I also ask if you think human kill human is bad.
Depends on what context. Other species kill members of their own.

>>132078824
We're talking about a proof about god or gods or whatever people want to call it and in that proof there are terms which are either commonly understood or they need to be properly defined. I don't know what definition of "loving" Hume's strawman Epicurus is using here so it needs to be defined or commonly understood.

>>132078886
Harm is not only possible in a form of a physical harm to the body.
Evil is suffering and if you believe in heaven (no suffering) then God could have well created this world without suffering.

>>132073849
>could god have created a universe with free will but without evil
No, because then it wouldn't be free will you pillock.
Things that are logically contradictory do not fall within the purview of God's omnipotence.
t. St. Aquinas

>>132079124
how is suffering evil?

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IF GOD EXISTS WHY DID I GET BULLIED IN SCHOOL?

CHECKMATE CHRISTFAGS

>>132074361
Furthermore, the process IS the meaning. This life can become a grave or a garden of roses, by your choices. Even choosing to accept suffering, and make things better despite it is one of those choices you can make that, even if it's impossible for you to be happy, you can at the very least not make it worse for everyone else.

You will see stranger things than you imagine, and stranger things than you can possibly imagine. Be calm, be kind, be centered, because that's your best chance of coming out well.

>>132079204
Does suffering exist in Heaven?

>>132079219
Unironically you have no answer to that.

>>132079124
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Romans 5:3-4 | NIV

>>132076185
It's like you don't understand the story at all.

They were given the opportunity to simply do as god said, and obediently follow his word without knowing if it was the right thing to do. They chose to make their own choices, and the punishment was for them to live independently, and make their own way outside of paradise. Not exactly the worst thing that could happen.

>>132078230
so god made a flawed system that causes suffering on his people.
no, more likely, it is impossible to create a 'thinking entity' (of a certain advanced sophistication) which also is unable to imagine the possibility of an evil action.

If a mind can come to be, and can think about the possibility of actions, for example, in a world with other people, and cliffs, and it was near a person near a cliff, naturally, it might be possible for that mind to realize it was possible for it to push the person over the cliff, these are just physical relations: it is these realization of physical possibilities, which then the mapping of agreed to 'that is evil' is established.

How could a sophisticated enough mind develop, to explore a world, and not be aware of such a physical principle possibility?

>>132079124
God is a creative force. If you create a system that cannot adapt, and that cannot go wrong, you create a static system in which nothing can ever change.

Also, suffering is relative. If all of your current pains were negated at the foundation of the world, you would be unable to conceive of them, and you'd be asking why a just and loving God allows the sun to get in your eyes, or the wind to muss your hair.

>>132079278
maybe, have you ever been to heaven long enough to find out?

>>132073849
there are a few false assumptions in that

but its quite good work

>>132079059
Please go back to this line where you said that you disagreed with my implicit statement that killing could be subjectively good.

>>132076273
>>killing God's creations based on class and race is objectively good
>stopped reading there

God created race, so clearly it's natural. Class is made by humans so it can be evil based on, as my argument goes, perspective.

Other minor things:
>>I ask if you think kill is nature is good.
>this makes no grammatical sense
Learn to transitive property.

>>I also ask if you think human kill human is bad.
>Depends on what context. Other species kill members of their own.
I'm arguing that there is no context where humans killing other humans is unnatural. Animals will murder out of spite too. Either provide me an example of an unnatural act that humans can commit or retire. And no, before you inevitably try to hide behind the "muh high-powered assault weapons" thing, keep in mind that designing exchangeable augmentations for improvement to the individual's efficiency is the human's primary evolutionary adaptation, so that's natural too.

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>>132077777
Truly consider - you are a God.
What do you do? anything you want to?
What if what God wants to do is more than just party and be perfect, but also "get lost" without ever coming to his own rescue? That is most far out.

>>132078261
>Deism gets around all this

Let's not kid ourselves, Deism is atheism-lite. I can entertain the possibility that what we know as this Universe was created by some entity/being/consciousness outside of space-time completely indifferent to everything within the Universe. But believing shit like Creationism, Free will, Afterlife etc is absurd to me. They all seem like wishful thinking to me which is something I thought /pol/ encourages not to do.

Basically:
Creationism=we aren't merely a process of causality starting from the big bang but were created for a higher purpose
Free will=we aren't just puppets to our biology/God and actually have agency and 100% control of our actions
Afterlife=death is an illusion and more like a transition period for our souls

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>>132073849

Forget about Heaven, study Nature. The forces of the Universe are already placed before you. God is at your feet. God is Nature and the laws that govern the Universe. Respect Nature and you will respect God.

>>132073849
>God doesn't do what I want therefore he's bad and/or doesn't exist

t. Epicuckrius

>>132079655

>God helps those who help themselves you fucking moron..kys

>>132078749

You really seem to be missing the fact that I know my creator and do not follow an organized religion.

Organized religion is the work of man, and doesn't take much of a man to dismantle.

Can you dismantle my creator?

Show it to a Calvinist and watch them become fully erect.

>>132079584
>>>132077242

>>132073849
Pain, suffering, and unpleasantness exists, but is it evil? It's not obvious and can't be assumed.

>>132079584
I didn't even write the word "kill" in there cockmouth.

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>>132075242
>>132076125
>>132076758
>>132076966
>>132076987
>>132077572
>>132077861
>>132077903
>>132077978
>>132078148
>>132079134
>>132079645
>ctrl+f free will

>>132078396
Based on your own logic, your very reasoning and existence as a human could be reduced to random arbitrary digits, and is therefore also meaningless.
I live here in Nagasaki.
You should go to the Atom Bomb Museum and see what the Christian Dr. Takashi Nagai did in the last 6 years of his life after 1945, penning many books while suffering from radiation poisoning.
As this anon alludes to
>>132078669
Without great tragedy, there are no great men.
>>132078902
This is a great point.

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>>132079719
But anon, the existence of my creator proves the nonexistence of your creator.

Can you dismantle my creator?

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>>132073849
Your entire picture is a false dilemma and can be answered EASILY. That's IF YOU ARE TRULY AND SINCERELY INTERESTED IN KNOWING WHY. If not then I'm not going to waste my time explaining.

You would be surprised that the answer is not in your picture at all.

God doesn't need to be all powerful, he only needs to be able to condemn you into hell for eternity and you'll have to worship him.

>>132080077
Who said you'd have free will in heaven? You're going to return to being part of God.

>>132079912
Give me a single solid example of something unnatural. One scenario which you would define as unnatural.

>>132079971
The point seems to have completely missed you.

>>132080077
Do you think you get free will when you go to heaven? Heaven is the place for people who try so hard to get their life into perfect shape that they might as well be controlled by the Hand of God itself. In death, God grants them that wish.

>>132073849
>nazi flag
>denying religion
Hmmm.

>>132080252
Edgy commentary from the edgy flag

>>132079607

We are the answer to the one question that drove God to suicide.

"What is it like to not be me?"

>>132078886
What you've literally just said is "evil is good".
>evil is necessary aspect of free will
>no one cares about evil because soul is immortal lol.
Okay then let's just fucking start a race war and fucking anahilate the human race completely.
Who the fuck cares the soul is immortal right?
>but you'll go to hell instead!
Could God have created a world where I wouldn't go to hell for damaging anyone's temporary transeint vessel for the soul even though I made no damages to the soul which is immortal?
Like, we didn't need to go to hell for killing but God made hell for us to suffer for it anyway?
>Yes.
Then he is evil.
>Actually, no!
Then why didn't he?

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>>132080297
>>132080317
>there is no free will in the most ecstatic state in all existence
>mfw I'm a slave to this state for eternity with no free will

>the longest path essentially ends with "could god make a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it"
Logical paradoxes such as a world where free will exists and evil doesn't have no place in a theological discussion. Epicurus was a fag.

>>132080077

>heaven is different than earth so God isn't real!

>>132080297
That's kind of a strange question. Do the individual sub-personalities that make you up have free-will? They exert control at times, they arise and often take immense effort to be made to sink back down again.

We already know what it's like to be a God made up of many people. We just need to be honest enough with ourselves long enough that we begin to be able to perceive the boundaries.

>>132080635
Pretty much.
I can't call you a faggot in heaven, so clearly I've been stripped of free will.
You faggot.

>>132080207

Probably, but I'd need to know more.

How could we have different creators?

How does yours disprove mine?

I'm pretty interested, it sounds like you are claiming you can prove the existence of God.

>>132080297
>god gave humans free will
>god doesn't want humans to have free will.
pick one.

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>>132080207
>>132079719

>Still hasn't dismantled my creator

Anon please I'm ready

>>132080635
You need to come to a greater understanding of what "you" are. A single person is not a monolithic entity but a confederation of tightly bound personalities, which make you make decisions by almost literally fighting with one another.

>>132080651
ad hominem

>>132080704
I'm so sorry for your low IQ

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>>132073849
>Blaming God for not fixing all problems

>>132080453
>"I worship God because I don't want to be in hell"
>"No, you're edgy"
okay

>>132080635
IOW it's not all bad, your "will" doesn't disappear, but becomes part of an aggregation. You might lose your identity, but you gain possibility, and might emerge again, a different mix of personalities, leaving to experience what this particular combination will be like.

>>132080895
>not fixing all problems
see the part in the bible where it claims God is all mighty.
All trillion of them

>>132081007
cool story bro, I also like imagining things

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>>132080794
My creator is the true creator. If my creator exists then surely no other creator must exist, but the requirement for my creators existence is the existence of your creator. As per my creator, of course.

>>132080869

Bro, you are getting BTFO by people who believe in sky-fairies.

How are you this delusional?

>>132073849
the ultimate fallacy: atheists think god = religion

>>132080832

Why don't you at least sage? I don't get why you would keep bumping the thread if you are not interested.

>>132080869
Yeah the last two words were a joking attack on the original creator of the argument. The rest of the post has an actual point that you don't appear to have considered.

>>132080895
I know, God ONLY fixes those problems for which his people pray REALLY hard.
Except when two people pray for two opposite things. Maybe that's why god doesn't appear anymore, 2 billion people keep sending contradictory prayers.

>>132073849
>believing an omnipotent being can be explained through a flowchart.

Just

>>132078886
>>132079124
>Evil is suffering and if you believe in heaven (no suffering) then God could have well created this world without suffering.

>>132080573
>Could God have created a world where I wouldn't go to hell for damaging anyone's temporary transeint vessel for the soul even though I made no damages to the soul which is immortal?

>>132080573
>Could God have created a world where I wouldn't go to hell for damaging anyone's temporary transeint vessel for the soul even though I made no damages to the soul which is immortal?

There is no such thing as hell. When a human dies they cease to exist forever. The death of a human is as significant as that of an animal. So if you die you cease to exist. You go to oblivion.

>Like, we didn't need to go to hell for killing but God made hell for us to suffer for it anyway?

Yes, God DID create a world where no suffering was to exist. God put Adam and Eve on a PARADISE WORLD. Adam and Eve WERE PERFECT and DIDN'T AGE AND GET SICK. Pain/suffering, old age, death, sickness and evil were not a part of his plan.

Again, I'm willing to answer this.>>132080220
But it will take some time, I won't waste my time if you won't care.

>>132081210

Sounds like the same argument would apply to me, if I were dumb enough to make it.

Agree to disagree then.

>>132079719

>dismantle

>a non-falsifiable concept

>>132080077
theres more than one non-sequitur in that image

>>132073849
Idea of a god being all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc etc is mad bullshit. Knowing that abrahamic religions have some sort of a god described above, I say fuck that (((god))). Christianity, Islam, Judaism - same bullshit ideas, just with different side stories to it.

One of the red pills is recognizing that religion is not necessary for morals, because chances are that morals actually built religion in the first place and not the other way around, unless of course you believe in some ayy lmaos that whispered into human's ears what is good and what is not.

If god exists, it probably is something that we cannot fathom yet. Something beyond our belief and understanding of the world. It could even be outside the realm we live in.

If god exists, it could be beyond our imagination and intellect to understand him

>>132081583
such as

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God is omnipotent. The issue comes from the claim that he is malevolent. If evil can be used to form a more meaningful good/more good/whatever or come by logical necessity of some good then you cannot make the claim that God is malevolent letting evil occur. However, evil does not "exist", it is simply a privation of the good.

A good example of the benefit of evil in theology is the doctrine of Free Will. Something created with the intent of experiencing love and sharing in God's love requires the ability to voluntarily choose to love, else the love is mechanical and not actually love.

This can be applied to things naturally in the world as well, such as the finite and distinct nature of the universe enables things to run up against one another and cause clashes which cause a lot of things. We could say this derives from the same sort of purpose but I won't assume to be a theologian.

More to the point, for Catholics, what suffering comes is a method towards growth towards virtue in various means. It could allow an important good, it could break your heart so that it be more open, it could be a method of transformation, or it even could be repercussions of sins playing out to persuade you away from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redemptive_suffering

We must try to relieve suffering but we do not relieve it by attempting to escape it but relieve it by overcoming it. And in that we are united with the suffering of our God, who has suffered with us.


Ultimately, like most Greek theistic problems, they are made towards the Hellenistic conception of gods and so it really isn't applicable to God unless you perceive Him as that sky wizard. This is called a Theistic Personalist view. The apostolic denominations (catholic, Orthodox, oriental) support the Classical Theist view. 4chan Christianity is majority apostolic denominations.

>>132081532

Oh, finally getting through to you guys.

Baby-steps!

>>132073849
logic is wasted in this era. the true philosophers of our time keep their thoughts to themselves. arguments only waste energy on time that could be used for further introspection

>>132079339
So wait, is free will a bad thing? I am confused now

>>132073849
This thing has already been debunked many times

God will get rid of evil entually. We do evil because we have freewill. Also the Bible doesn't say he is all loving

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>>132081474
No, it wouldn't apply to you, since you don't believe in the true creator.

>>132073849

Evil by definition is the absence of good. it is not the opposite of good

love requires free will

the door to hell is locked from the inside

hundreds and hundreds of books answered this book.

Lets say you are god,
lets say you created a girl you fell in love with.
will you force her to love you, or do you want her to love you with her own free will.

forcing someone to commit good, and preventing evil, defeats the purpose of good being able to be good.

>>132076185
God specifically told them not to do it retard

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>>132073849
>trying to apply human standards to an all powerfull deity

wewlad

>>132073849
>does god want to prevent evil?
>no
>then god is not good/god is not loving

???
maybe experiencing evil is part of gaining wisdom? just look at bleeding hearts who have never lived with niggers talking about saving them. they need to experience nigger evil, or they will allow, propagate, and even enable evil.

and when you cut out that hilarious fallacy the chart kinda just... shits itself

>>132081451
> The death of a human is as significant as that of an animal. So if you die you cease to exist. You go to oblivion.
So how does heaven fit in here?

>Yes, God DID create a world where no suffering was to exist. God put Adam and Eve on a PARADISE WORLD. Adam and Eve WERE PERFECT and DIDN'T AGE AND GET SICK.
Cool story bro. But how does that concern *us*? We get sick and die so do we go to oblivion? I don't care bout Adam and Eve do WE get an afterlife or what?

>Pain/suffering, old age, death, sickness and evil were not a part of his plan.
>not a part of his plan
Did God make a mistake?
He's not perfect.

Did God not know his plan will be screwed?
He's not omniscient.

Did God deliberately put forth for this mistake to happen so humans would become mortal and trillions would die?
He's evil.
(Not to mention that this would mean this WAS part of his plan all along.)

>>132081844

Oooh, samsies!

You sure we don't believe in the same dude?

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>>132079655
>>God doesn't do what I want therefore he's bad and/or doesn't exist
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRP

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OP here

I'm not even dropping the big bomb debunking free will because it requires some time watching but for those interested:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnlBW5INYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnlBW5INYg
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnlBW5INYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAnlBW5INYg

tl;dr free will doesn't exist

>>132082180
Why do you need to gain wisdom except to avoid experiencing evil? Couldn't a genius god figure out how to give people wisdom without torturing them?

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>>132082213
Nope, I already explained that the existence of my dude proves the nonexistence of your dude, and the existence of your dude proves the existence of my dude.

Looks like someone hasn't read our sacred scripture. Care to be enlightened Mr. Anon?

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>>132082004
>forcing someone to commit good, and preventing evil, defeats the purpose of good being able to be good.

Why have evil in the first place? Hell, why create people at all if he knows we're going to disobey him? It seems like a really dumb thing to do.

>>132080823
You ate noodles at home and you ate a sandwich at work? That's not logically possible.

>>132082228

You can prove free will exists by the act of renouncing it: carry your old dnd set around and roll for every decision.

I guess you could always say you were materialistic ally determined to choose everything randomly for the rest of your life because a stranger on a botswanian pancake-folding forum told you to, but that seems like a stretch.

>>132082411

Yeah, same here. But we don't write things down.

>>132082466
>renouncing it
watch the video and to see why you are wrong

>>132082228
Freewill is poorly defined which leads every proof to prove or disprove freewill to be nonsensical.

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>>132082553
The true god has dictated that those who do not write things down do not worship a true god.

>>132082413
entertainment

>>132082004
>or do you want her to love you with her own free will.
That is, I'd give her free will but she would disobey me so I'd punish her and strip her off her free will and force her to worship me anyway.

>Look! I'm a Christian god now!

>>132082707

No, because I have free will and would rather read this thread.

Feel free to type it up for me, if you want.

>>132082874

Go on.

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>>132082909
We are a pretty entertaining bunch, huh? A pack of literal dancing monkeys

>>132083016

Woah, the Christian God forces you to worship him?

See a shrink, Friendo.

>>132082198
>So how does heaven fit in here?

Heaven is for the angels. That is there home. The Bible promises that when humans die they will COME BACK to life. Same as how Jesus and Elijah brought dead people back to life. When the world ends the humanity that was loyal to God will be resurrected physically on earth in perfect human bodies. Perfect bodies that don't grow old, get sick, and die. Eternal life on Earth as Adam and Eve ORIGINALLY WERE MEANT TO HAVE. The belief of the afterlife(heaven/hell) is a pagan concept. Not Biblical.

> WE get an afterlife or what?

No, we get an EARTHLY RESURRECTION. It means you will be brought back on a perfect world cleaned of all evil.

>Did God make a mistake?
>He's not perfect.

False Dilemma

>Did God not know his plan will be screwed?
>He's not omniscient.

False Dilemma

>Did God deliberately put forth for this mistake to happen so humans would become mortal and trillions would die?
>He's evil.

False Dilemma

>(Not to mention that this would mean this WAS part of his plan all along.)


No, this was never part of the plan. Do you really want to know WHY this is happening or do you want to continue to push more false dilemmas and personal bias?

>>132082228
There's a fundamental false assumption that freewill must exist within thoughts in the brain formed by language and thoughts not yet fully formed into language must must therefore not be a product of freewill.

>Be all knowing god
>Create the univere and the laws that govern it
>Get bored as fuck, dick around with the rules
>Create life while fucking about
>Can't have them be all powerful and all knowing beings. Then we'd all be bored
>Fuck about with the rules somemore and let them start evolving
>Nug evolutions towards what is desired via swipes of the metaphysical hand
>Get a good idea
>Allow creatures to evolve into beings with free will
>Know all about the universe and the technical details
>Know jack shit about whats in the minds of my creations
>Suddenly entertained as the rules of nature act independant creating and destroying like a well oiled maschine
>Watch with delight as these human beings and animals evolve and make independant decisions based on a vauge set of godlike coding
>Now have one thing that will always act uniquely, in reaction to the mechanisms of the universe

God is just a kid who built his own universe scale version of an ant farm. He controls all external fctors, but the individual decisions are left to the ants reacting to what he set, or let automatically be set, in motion.

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>>132083048
>I have free will and would rather read this thread.

Well you'd think that but you made the decision to read the thread instead not based on free will.
I bet you think if you'll watch it, that will also be freew will but you will be wrong again.

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>>132083109
Attempting, as well as tempting, to "go on" is heresy and punishable by up to eternity in Niggerland ("Hell" is the false caricature of Niggerland, which was bastardized by the Christians et al.).

Repent, sinner. Our true God is a merciful one.

>>132073849
god refers to the giant qualia matrix that structurally connects all of us through time and space. Think about this deeply, i'm not LARPing or fucking around.

>>132073849
>God not all-powerful.

Epicurean bullshit broken.

God allowed freedom so that Good could truly be known. Without contrast to evil, Good means nothing.

>Drops Mics
>Fedoras shit themselves to death

>>132083685
Please refer to these posts in regards to the validity of your false god, sinner:

>>132080207
>>132081210
>>132081844
>>132082411

>>132083791
>>God not all-powerful.

nice I see you BTFO yourself.

goodbye then

Ehh not even worth trying with a chick that's on some kind of spiritual kick. Just tune her out, say you're catholic or some shit, never need to use condoms. May have 3 kids with different mothers, but haven't used condoms in years

>>132083845
my beliefs aren't mutually exclusive with Christianity or any other religion.

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>>132073849
This is where it fails.
God allows evil so we can make the right choices.

>>132083553

Look, I'm here of my own free will, but looks at yourself!

You are trapped here having this asinine conversation with a stranger who has a fundamentally different perspective than yourself leaving compromise non-negotiable.

What fresh hell do you inhabit where the entire history of the universe conspired to trap you here in this pointless conversation?

Super gross, bro

>>132083581

But you did just go on, anon

>>132083942
>reddit spacing
>won't watch a well summed video on the topic at hand
>keeps shitposting

nice

>>132083941
evil is a part of god. without evil there wouldn't be good since it's a duality. God isn't anthropomorphic, although we are made in it's image in the way a fractal has different levels.

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>>132083886
Asserting the validity of your own beliefs is also heresy, as the only valid belief is in that of our one true God.

>>132083983
I am God.

>>132084066
Valid expansion

>>132083211
>what is afterlife
Last time I read the bible I thought that in Heaven everyone was just supposed to worship God and do nothing else.
>Rev 7:14 ...These are they which came out of great tribulation....
>Rev 7:15 ...They before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
>Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Sounds like free will?

>>132077777
That's what he does when he makes you suffer retard
It's all intended for the greater purpose of evolution.
Though folks like you killed that a while ago with Christianity. As much as you dislike religion you're the same kind of retard who would have supported it back in the days.
Just a different era and you fit the mold of your people.

>>132079339
this.

>God allows you to choose, having free will
>You choose free will and disobey
>You complain about God not making you obey
All humans are niggers.

>>132073849
I'm stuck in endless loop at the bottom, by the way.
Also no option for evil not existing.

>>132084031
OP BTFO
God allows evil because he allows free will.

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>>132083941
>"""""God""""" """""""allows""""""" evil
no.

>>132084271
>no.
proof?

>>132084031

Sorry bro, I'd be mad too if I constructed some false prison for myself where I am determinalisticly encoded to have a back and forth with someone who i think is a shit poster.

Seriously, what a shitty existence that there is literally nothing you could have done to prevent yourself from typing the exact words in responding to at the exact moment you stroked each key.

So what happens, do you respond to me until the thread dies or at some point a deterministic breaking point is reached and you go do something equally pointless?

Or have I already modified the system by injecting the idea of leaving, causing opposition? Did that observation adjust it further?

I guess you'll figure it out when it happens to you.

>>132084149

Still confused, are you worshipping him right now or what?

>>132079719
>Organized religion is the work of man, and doesn't take much of a man to dismantle.
Organized religion is an attempt to use true divinity as a form of social control, there is no specialized priestly class who know the mind of god, it's bullshit.

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>>132084312
>Not understanding that the one true God determined the state of every single particle in the universe at its creation

Enjoy your stay in Niggerland, sinner.

Here's a question.

Does evil exist independent of humanity?

>>132084395

Uh, thanks for chiming in there pal.

>>132073849
define evil

>>132084502

Really? Is that what science tells us?

>>132073849
"Can good create a universe with free will, but without evil?" > "No." > "Then God is not all powerful."
This is the error. Good can't create a logical fallacy, but that can't be construed as a limitation to God's power. God can't create a square circle, not because there are limits to God's power, but because it's a nonsensical concept. A circle is defined as something that can't be square. It's the same way with free will. Free will makes no sense as a concept without the freedom to choose other than God's will, which is evil.

>>132084512
>Does evil exist independent of humanity?
No
Unless you count spirits and aliens.

>>132084512
Yes, Satan and Demons.

>>132084512
I've seen atheists call tsunamis ''evil'' and how all the casualties are proof God does not exist, so no.

>>132084371
>That is, I'd give her free will
God creates Adam and Eve.
>but she would disobey me
Adam and Eve eat the magical apple.
>so I'd punish her
This is why we die now
>and strip her off her free will and force her to worship me anyway.
This is what we're going to do after we die.

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>>132084574
As soon as science axiomatically reaches the final mathematical truth about our Universe they will find an encrypted message which, once having applied the cipher in our scripture, will read "Have fun in Niggerland, niggers".

Science is heresy, you know.

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>>132084517
Not a problem you got any other existential crises you need cleared up?

What is free will?

We are children, God is the parent. God created man with free will, if we didn't have it we would only be controlled by instinct like animals.

>>132084593
This
And very well said anon

>>132084735
Even after we dead we still have the freedom not to worship God. Those in hell do not worship God, they curse him. Those in heaven worship God of their own free will.

>>132073849
>implying if an omnipotent and omnipresent God existed mere mortals could understand His will

>>132084679
Most atheists like most people are really stupid so they confuse the theistic problem of evil with the theistic problem of suffering. Evil is supposed to be the product of intelligence so only intelligent beings can be evil.

>>132084735
I have no idea where you are pulling these quotes from or why you can't answer a simple question:

Are you worshipping God right now? When was the last time he forced you to worship him?

>>132084771

Why would you tell me this if it means you have to live with niggers?

>>132083420
I see, you don't believe in abstract out-of-the-world kind of afterlife that most believe.
Instead, you believe that "heaven" should be remade on earth like it was supposed to.
That makes a lot more sense.
>False dilemma
>False dilemma
>False dilemma
OK what's the third option? Or you don't believe God actually needs to be all-mighty-powerful which would also make a lot more sense and clear up a lot of fallacies.

>>132073849

asking why to a omnipotent omniscience being

>>132084593
Sort of. God could make a square circle by simply bending all dimensional space around squares to become circles; thus making the concept of a square equal to that of a circle, thus an irrelevant term that would never be invented.

But why would he?

Same question one could ask of banishing evil. Why? It creates a situation of free will. And that is the situation God has chosen for creation. He could get rid of it, but he wills not to as a means to give us this gift of love: free will.

Imagine if there was an author all of your friends lost their shit about and you heard about everywhere. He changed everyone's lives, redefined the English language, he's the smartest human to have ever lived, he gave them new purpose.
So you decide to give his book a try. On every page, there's child rape, people dying in pain, vile behaviour and disgusting descriptions of the most awful gore.
Keep with it everyone says, though. He has a plan. It will all make sense at the end. But then you get to the end and none of it is explained. It ends on a cliff hanger and it really seems like there's no purpose and the author is just making stuff up.
Everyone says though, wait for the next book, it will get really good. It will all make sense - you'll see.
Ten years pass. Twenty. Thirty.
Two thousand years pass.
That's what believing in an all-knowing God is like.

>>132084866
Do people in hell have free will to change their heart and enter heaven?
Do people in heaven have free will to disobey god and go to hell?

>>132085107

Literally no culture in history outside of abrahamic religions had a concept of a true omnipotence.

Stop being edgy. You can hate Christianity and still love God.

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>>132085052
Repent sinner. Head over to /CPD/ to get a glimpse of what true Niggerland is like.

>>132084735
at least probably in Heaven but maybe not 24/7 on new earth

>>132084999
>>When was the last time he forced you to worship him?
>worship me or u go to hell.
What do you mean by force? if this isn't forcing somebody to worship what is?

>>132085222
>Do people in heaven have free will to disobey god and go to hell?

Satan did so yes

>>132085213

No... This is like one specific religion you have a hate-boner for, not the concept or a creator.

>>132084297
see OP's pic related

>>132084912
John 6:38-40

>>132085213
>It ends on a cliff hanger
Do you want to elaborate on that? Your beautiful analogy implies you've read the bible, but that little part disagrees.

>>132085222
They do, but at the judgement we are given full knowledge of God, after which point there would be no basis for changing their minds. Also, those in Heaven are perfected in their nature.

>>132085369
But that's been debunked, as god allows evil for the sake of free will to exist. So what else ya got?

>>132085251
Do you believe in an omnipotent god and what does god mean to you?

>>132085338
Bro why can't you answer the question? You said you were forced by God to worship him: is that happening now and when was the last time it happened.

Super simple.

>>132073849
when i draw something i dont plan forit to be good or evil. and just ad easily i forget about it and go onto the next piece of art. i can therefore i do.

>>132085251
God doesn't have to be omnipotent, but he can't even show himself? He created the whole universe, but he can't let us know he's here and that he loves us?
Sure, maybe he's so powerful that he can't show up on earth anymore or he'll kill us all. He can't leave some sign in the solar system?
Either that or if a being created the universe, he either doesn't know about us, doesn't care, or is dead.

>>132085448
No. God is the creator of the universe.

>>132073849
Anyone that believes those texts and aren't aware that they were put together by ancient peoples in an attempt to make sense or the world is completely fucked.

>>132085549


>why won't the supreme being do magic tricks to appease me?

Get over yourself.

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>>132073849
God is internal. It's a state of mind, a purpose and an internal guide. Killing 'god' just allows for the media or popular culture to become god.. and what the harm in that.. right..

I've begun looking at religion as a template for a successful society. Nothing more. It is a tool to direct the masses in a way that betters society. Women being virtuous makes them harder to obtain. Only those who could develop themselves properly had the privilege of prolonging society through reproduction. Admittedly there are plenty of examples of religious practice that don't quite enhance society, but there are a select core of persisting principles that many religions adopt. Women being pure, fuck the gays, don't murder harmless people etc. All of these lead to society not crumbling (at least they used to). As for "god" I interchange it with "design" or just an easy way to explain societal nuances to morons who wouldn't comprehend it in realistic terms. God telling you to do something is perceived as more powerful than some bruh telling you the same thing.

>>132073849
Calm down bro, the religious minds don't like philosophy or any other task that requires rational thoughts

>>132085396
Oh yeah, I forgot that the mark of the beast already showed up on everyone's forehead and everything about the end times came true.

But that's not even what I was talking about. I forgot the part in the Bible where God explains why he allows child rape and cancer. My mistake.

>>132085649
>religious minds don't like philosophy
source?

>>132085466
>were forced
Where did say I was forced? Where exactly did I use the past tense?
Is this afterlife? Did tribulation already happen? How could I miss this?

>This is what we're going to do after we die
>we're going to
This is called the future tense bro.

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>>132085491
>tripfag
>'god'
>leaf
Fine, have a (you)

>>132085549
>but he can't let us know he's here
You really crave the apocalypse, don't you.

>>132082228
>pic

last miracle according to catholics was in May

http://catholicism.org/category/miracles-and-apparitions

>>132085631
Right, just how like everyone who loves their mom won't even send them a "k" over text message.

Even if it's not about some God loving us, I should believe in it without proof?

>>132085635
The Bible and faith is literally just the stepping Stones to find your god.. your guide.. a way to be happy in the world around you and make everyone else..happy.

Taking it literally in any religion is to completely miss the point.

>>132085753
>tripfag
that's a namefag
but just as bad

>>132085445
Why does free will necessitate evil?
Why believe in and worship a god who allows evil if doing so will not end evil?

>>132073849
>God knows how freewill will affect us so there's no need to test us

It's not for his benefit that we are tested heathen.

>>132085785
>Taking it literally in any religion is to completely miss the point.
on what do you base that?

>>132085753
>You really crave the apocalypse, don't you.
Man, a God who creates a universe where everything can be explained without him, but then only shows up to punish everyone who doesn't believe in him. Really sounds like someone I want to praise.

>>132085811
>Why does free will necessitate evil?
Because it allows for temptation, which is the point of being human. To over come said temptation.

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>>132075581
I'd agree but Christcucks would take issue. Also, if the message is figurative then we can substitute religion for regular old fairy tales.

>>132085668
>All that condescending
You still didn't answer my question. Where's the cliffhanger in the bible? The 'end' seems pretty clear-cut to me.

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>mfw Jews and Orthodox believers are literally the only people I have ever met that actually know what the Bible says about Heaven

And the Jews don't even believe the fucking place is real.

>>132085723

Still having a, dare I say, miraculously difficult time answering a simple question: are you worshipping God right now?

You don't just get to rattle off three questions and expect them answered after failing to answer one question three times.

Dialogue is a two-party system.

>>132083941
Assuming you're taking good literally and this content is true..which it isn't.. then why would god test anyone.. he already knows everything.. did he make fuck ups on purpose. Unless there's an objective we don't yet know or heaven is real and it's literally to thin our our numbers ensuring only nice cunts get to heaven then it's retarded.

>>132085701
Ikr? Catholic here, absolutely love philosophical debates. Don't know what Anon was taking about.

>all-powerful, all-knowing God would destroy Satan
why

>>132085893
I talked down to you and you still missed my point.

>>132085773

>God has to love me

Earn it, you entitled piece of shit.

It's insane to me how you want to impose all these requirements on God like what you fucking want matters at all.

>>132076625
This.
But the centralisation of power is accompanied by corruption and dogmatic bullshit that reduce personal freedoms in very negative ways.

>>132085969
Cause otherwise he's evil.

>>132086031
Then there's no rational reason to believe in him. Everything is explainable without him.

>>132085863
>Also, if the message is figurative then we can substitute religion for regular old fairy tales.
That would be true, if Bible was merely a book of parables.

Dur hur I can't fully understand the motivations or designs of a being infinitely more intelligent and complex than me, so clearly said being doesn't exist.

Here's a pro tip, not just for things of this nature but for life in general: Know your role and perform it to the best of your ability. Right now, you're a fry cook talking shit to your coworkers about share buybacks and corporate tax loop holes. What you should be doing is watching the timer and shaking your fry basket (reading the bible, living by it, and praying), not questioning the business practices of the CEO and wondering what the broader strategy is (trying and failing miserably to understand God's divine plan).

>>132085843
>where everything can be explained without him
... there's ''God knows'' how many things that cannot be explained. How selfish are you to think we know everything in the year 2017? Jesus Christ the audacity.

>Really sounds like someone I want to praise
People with borderline God-complexes generally despise the idea of (having to) praising something else.

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At this point we are all talking around in circles, as our ancestors have done for the past 2,000 years, possibly even longer. This changes nothing other distilling some jimmies and wasting some time while our cells degrade.

>>132085843

>some sand niggers wrote book I don't like so I use it as an excuse to hate my creator

Grow the fuck up. Hate Books written by man all you want, it's no excuse to hate God.

>>132086019
>still missed my point
And still not answering.

>>132085951
I can speculate a handful of valid reasons as to why he would want us tested. No one can purport to know the true reasons why. But for instance, God may not be testing us at all. Perhaps we choose to come to this plane to test ourselves; to improve the evolution of our spirit.

I don't know. But that seems like a valid answer that would explain the whole thing. It could be one of millions like that.

>>132085843
Not everything can be explained without God, you just ignore everything that can't. Why did the big baby happen at any particular time, why isn't it still happening? Why is the universe ordered in the first place, why should it follow any natural laws, and why wouldn't natural laws arbitrarily change? Given what we now know about the intricacies of a single cell, the intricacies of the DNA, how they are Co-dependant, and neither can produce the other without the other already present, how did life originate in the first place? What is the mechanism by which inanimate matter becomes conscious? How can there be free will in a deterministic Universe?

>>132085107
>>132085107
>OK what's the third option?

Yes, God is all-powerful. That's why the Bible calls him multiple times The Almighty. Only he has that title. Was pain, suffering, evil all part of God's plan? No, it wasn't. So why did he allow it. For two simple reasons: Sovereignty and Integrity.

>Sovereignty

When the snake(Satan) approached Eve again he told her that God was lying and that she WOULD NOT DIE if she ate the fruit. That she would know good and evil and become like God herself. That's why Satan's name is Satan the Devil. It's not his real name. Nobody knows his real name. Satan means "Slanderer" and Devil means Rebel. He was the first to lie, the first to slander and blasphem God, and the first to rebel. Why did Satan want Adam, Eve, and himself to rebel? Because of Sovereignty. The right to rule. Satan STOLE God's sovereignty over humanity by tricking Adam and Eve that THEY would be their own sovereigns themselves by knowing good and evil and "become like God." They would govern themselves and decide their own moral code. God could have destroyed the rebels but he chose not to so they could present their challenge.

>Can man rule himself and give himself paradise given time?
>Can Satan rule mankind and be their God instead of Jehovah?
>Can man bring himself into prosperity, peace, order, and happiness by himself?

These were all challenges to God's sovereignty. So God stepped back, let mankind rule themselves, while the devil secretly ruled them. God's challenge to them and all currently mankind is "prove it."

CONTINUED

>>132086110
See, this explanation that he just knows more than us and has a plan is why I wrote this
>>132085213
Why would anyone believe there was a purpose to any of this if there's not even a hint?

>>132073849
What exactly is evil? Evil is just a point of view. Somewhere even in the sickest people's minds, their actions are justified.

> all powerful God
> has the power to eternally punish or reward any human
> he ultimately decides what is good and evil, not humans

The fact that God does not live up to your personal standards is irrelevant since you do not make the rules. Think how absurd it is to suggest that God could only exist if he lived up to your own personal moral standards.

>>132085856
OK, but that gets you no closer to proving the existence of a """""god""""".

>>132086102
What else is there?

>>132086100
You assume humans are purely rational

They arent

>>132086294
Why would the idea of temptation even come from in a nature standpoint?

>>132086138
>reading comprehension
he didn't say everything WAS explained he said everything CAN BE.

>>132086294
>OK, but that gets you no closer to proving the existence of a """""god""""".
Who ever claimed to be able to prove the existence of God? Certainly not me. If I could, then no faith would be required. And faith is an important tenant of most religions.

>>132086100

Then fucking don't, but you are intellectually dishonest and will never find truth.

You have a justifiable but useless hatred towards a religion and culture that hurt you, don't turn a blind eye from God because you were lied to by men.

>>132085811
Free will without the freedom to choose evil, which is the freedom to choose other than God's will, is meaningless as a concept.

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>>132073849

>>132080297
Wtf I'm a Satanist now

>>132086212
Add luck to your list if you want to eternally baffle any science-jock, who will end up denying it as a concept anyway.

>>132073849
mfw these are the sorts of logical arguments that high schoolers use

>>132086359
Slavshit just shut the fuck up, I read what he said and I answered based on it. He said everything CAN BE EXPLAINED and I said that no, not everything can be explained. I have 1 retard to answer to already, I don't need another.

>>132085923
>are you worshipping God right now?
Pretty obvious I'm an atheist m8.

>>132086353
In assessing relative risk/reward of a given action.
E.g. a group of nomadic hunters deciding whether to hunt smaller game individually, or go together for the mammoth, which, once caught, would feed their group for months. They might be tempted to choose the latter, even though they might be without food if they were unsuccessful.

>>132086610
>Atheist
>Retarded
Checks out