/lrg/ - LIBERTARIAN RIGHT GENERAL: Drop it like it's Hoppe

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Fresh meme off the presses to spam in lite-libertarian threads

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Reposting the wonderful torrent posted by a britainbro on yday's thread, I'm currently seeding

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:8d8ec6ef882dee291f119eb69994797574e5d616&dn=Anarcho-Capitalism%20Books

>>132040769
Is anyone even debating whether gary johnson is a libertarian at this point? the uppity cunt openly supported tpp pre-elections iirc

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>>132040994
Thank you Greekbro.

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>>132041274
Apparently they are because he not only got the LP nomination twice, but he also got 5 or so million votes in the general election. Despite Austin Petersen being a much better candidate and having called him out on that stupid cake position of his.

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>>132041554
I see, I'm not following the american LP closely but from what I've seen they have nothing to do with liberty after all. Ron Paul must have had his reasons to run for the republican nomination and not for them after all.

>>132042204
>>132042237
>>132042276
>>132042312
>>132042339
good reading material, nicely done

It's impossible to have capitalism and anarchy capitalism needs the state

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>>132042968
Thanks, and yes Ron Paul is probably pissed. Although he switched parties from Republican to Libertarian again, we must remember he has to keep his real power level low. And by that I mean 90s-Lew-Rockwell-reports-tier power level.

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>>132043056
Logically and praxeologically false.

>>132043202
>logically false
False
>praxeologically false
it's never happened I wonder why...

The over of a territory or covenant doesn't have to adopt pure liberal market policies in Hoppe's view right? Like let's say we form a joint stock sovereign corporation and make a private nation. Since it's private the sovereign corp could have taxes, welfare built into its charter, etc.

IMO a lot of Hoppe's thought just devolves into "we should be nationalists but admit we're exclusive and removing kebab"

>>132043056
>capitalism needs the state
no it doesn't
>It's impossible to have capitalism and anarchy
actually it's impossible to have collectivism and anarchy. A free market and Laissez-faire capitalism are actually the prerequisites to have any decent form of anarchy or non-statism in general.

>>132043320
Then present your argument as to why capitalism needs a state please.

>>132043358
Yes although whether or not those would be successful remains to be seen. Just say "Can I be a nazi in my own covenant?" The answer is yes: whether or not it would be a good place to live and an economically and socially viable place to live would be the fun in seeing what models work and what dont.

>>132043417
>actually it's impossible to have collectivism and anarchy. A free market and Laissez-faire capitalism are actually the prerequisites to have any decent form of anarchy or non-statism in general.
WRONG!
>>132043423
What's stopping people with enough money hiring militias and then conquering land ands businesses to form a state? How will you circulate money? How will your businesses stay up while the rate of profit decreases? Why will most big business men want it when they can just buy votes from our current democracy? How do you prevent private courts from being bought out?

>>132043610
That's basically what I'm saying. Since there is no "fair" way to decide how to break up most states, and any attempt to do so would require terrible violence, many of us should just accept the states that we live in and begin to regard them as commonwealths. I understand why Hoppe thinks having many small states competing with each other would reduce leftism, but in practice that seems very far away from any realistic scenario. Better to have economies of scale with a country or trade zone.

>>132043860
>reduce leftism
Yes almost like people are aligning with ideologies in their self interest hmmm not sure you can reduce that

First for Gary Johnson

>>132043740
Also having a commons is pretty important for many market functions. Housing regulations are a good example. NIMBYs in big American city make it harder to build new buildings, and it's costing unbelievable amounts of money in economic growth because cities can't grow the way they would under unregulated conditions. It's also driving up the cost of housing to absurd levels. Having a commons to prevent such behavior seems obviously good to me.

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>>132043740
What's stopping people with enough money hiring militias and then conquering land ands businesses to form a state?
People who pay companies to protect them from scumbags who wish to take their property away.

How will you circulate money?
Like we used to before central banks existed? We're heading into incorruptible and inflation-less cryptos anyway.

How will your businesses stay up while the rate of profit decreases?
Why would the rate of profit decrease?

Why will most big business men want it when they can just buy votes from our current democracy?
Big businessmen who get funds from the government and take advantage of the regulatory power it endows to them are just as part of the state apparatus as the Clinton family. They will need to be taught a lesson, abd will need to step up their game because of the new competition.

How do you prevent private courts from being bought out?
That doesn't happen in state courts right? Anyways, competition from other private courts.

>>132044279
>People who pay companies to protect them from scumbags who wish to take their property away.

This seems insane to me desu, and I'm a very big market guy. It would lead to a nightmare world of all against all in which economies of scale and cooperation collapse in the face of violent conflict. This stuff is the reason it's hard to get normies to accept more radical applications of capitalism, no one thinks having Pinkertons gun down workers who don't want to work for their boss anymore sounds good.

>>132044574
Have you read The Private Production of Defense? It's not as scary as it may sound.

>>132044916
Yes, yes it really is. You guys are idealists, but unfortunately that stuff doesn't work in the real world. It will never happen though, normal people would never accept such a world. At best you would have "private" police in the sense that sovereign corporations operating as de facto nation states would have police. So police.

>>132045141
And yet the state, which boils down to "surrender all your other means of defense and loyalty to other states and we'll protect you after we've extorted you for money" works.

>>132045447
Modern states do some things well, the primary one being forming a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. That is actually what creates high trust societies and allows for cooperation on a large scale. Places with lots of non-state violence are run by organizations like the mob, and regardless of how fancy the logos are they are still ultimately gangsters. The state is better than them even if libertarians like Hoppe won't admit it.

>>132045675
Legitimate use of force. Yeah, right.

Reminder that "Objectivism" deserves a mention in the OP as it encapsulates Nationalism, Capitalism, Meritocracy, Individualism, and Libertarianism all rolled into one.
Libertarianism is only useful as a technical qualifier and is basically incomplete Objectivism. Objectivism without the epistemology. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erytcpYpzRk

Objectivism deserves a mention in the OP. Posting a related video. Good old John Galt's 3 hour long speech, from an audiobook:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F5nhYo5nx4

>>132040994
Im the guy in question.

I'd be more than happy if this was included in the pastebin

>>132046496
The state decides what constitute legitimate.

>>132049924
What right do they have to do so?

>>132049693
I'll add it, so to speak.

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>>132049924
So if the state decides you should give your house to refugees and hand out papers telling niggers how to rape your daughter you'd be okay with it, it would be legitimate. Fuck you.

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>>132049924
>being this much of a statist
put your commie flag on mate

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(((cato)))

These guys will get the helicopter first.

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>>132052361
I fucking hate the Cato Institute. Such garbage I see from them. In fact, i think all "libertarian" think-tanks/groups are pozzed but for PFS and the Mises Institute and its branches. C4SS, Cato, LP, etc. - they all cater to socialists.

Also, Maltabro what do you think of my OC in the first post?

>>132052361
i feel like we've had a lot of people who will get it 'first'

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>>132052361
>we libertarians, we gud goys
goddammit

>>132040994
can't seem to get any peers w/ deluge

Right-wing libertarian is euphemism for fake libertarian. National borders are enforced with government threats of violence, period. If you want to enforce national borders, you are ipso facto not a libertarian.

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>>132053584

>>132052137

>even if they commit no criminal offense

Hoppe is not a libertarian.

>>132053403
I've had it open on deluge since I reposted the magnet, 0 seeds 0 peers most of the time

>>132049693
britainbro are you seeding? Any idea what's up with the torrent?

>>132053863
'Physical removal' in actuality never called for the use of force, but rather the collective denial of access to private property, which is in accordance with non-aggression.

>>132052970
Seems to contain all our main talking points, 10/10 portubro

>>132053863
>>132053584

You don't understand libertarianism.

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>>132053863
it's getting bigger

>>132054164

This is retarded. All of society isn't gonna exclude "ill-behaved" people.

>>132054585

Hoppeanism isn't libertarianism.

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>>132054932
You're right. First comes a "stop." Followed by a "I told you to stop doing that" in case of non-compliance. Which is then followed by a "stop it, goddamn it!" - this gives the perp two options: conform to the covenant community lifestyle or be expelled.

>>132055062
>Hoppeanism isn't libertarianism.

This. Hoppefaggots are just trying to wrap their bigotry up in libertarian garb. They even take Hoppe completely out of context in order to do so.

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>>132055219
nice shilling AnCom. Come out, come out, show your true colors!

No one on 4chan would un-ironically use the word "bigotry". We all knows that's leftist new-speak.

>>132055062
It is. It's just not AnCap (the autist dreamland) but Minarchism (actually viable and seen in some form or another in human history)

>>132055216

You people just want to live in a sterile, conformist bubble. Most people, thank god, aren't like you. People generally don't mind associating with other races or people with different religions, political beliefs and lifestyles.

>>132055062
Nah, you're just blinded by statism, failing to engage in abstract thinking, your arguments clearly reflect so.

>National borders are enforced with government threats of violence

You're trying to argue against a hypothetical private property society by telling us that national borders are coercion. There's no national borders in what we're seeking, but there's borders, that's for fucking sure.

>>132054932
And here you're simply thinking that cities and society will remain like if there was a state. That somehow people will not seek for rules, for communities that engage on private restrictions, that contracts are not going to be the main system for social interaction, and you're wrong.

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>>132053584
>>132053863
>>132056047
>trying this hard
you messed up mate, you almost had me with your first post, that hoppe statement was unnecessary and you ended up playing yourself

>>132056047
>People generally don't mind associating with other races or people with different religions, political beliefs and lifestyles

That's what they say if you ask them, no doubt.

Tell them they have to purchase property in the ghetto or to live in Mexico though. See how they vote with their wallets...

>>132053584
Bears enforce the borders of their caves with deadly force. Does that make them governments?

>>132055876
What Hoppe describes is not minarchy but anarcho capitalism. There's no state whatsoever.

Voluntary associations guided by contractually enforced rules are totally compatible with anarcho capitalism.

>>132054164
'All of society' is in fact all of a covenant who privately agree they want to live in a (likely smaller) town or district where they set certain social standards.

>>132056047
True, but those people are partaking in economically inefficient procedures anyway. Homogeneous societies are advantaged.

>>132056720

Apparently, you've never heard of "gentrification". And millions of Americans live in Mexico, dude.

>>132057357

There would be no pluralistic cities in a stateless libertarian society? You're delusional.

>>132057148
Doesn't he promote a monarchic state to enforce the rules?

>>132057647
Not. An. Argument.

Also not what I said. It's possible there would be pluralistic cities, that is true, but there is a large and viable possibility to move to a smaller community, especially considering how the state encourages movement of people to one central city, and libertarianism promotes the opposite.

>>132057688
Not at all.

>>132057499
Gentrification is what happens when the rich neighbors pay for poor neighborhood infrastructures and services so they make them somewhat habitable with time and enough tax money thrown at them.

It's not a natural market phenomenon. If rich people's money stayed in rich people's communities, the only gentrification you'd see would be through mass eviction of undesirables.

>And millions of Americans live in Mexico

Mostly in gated communities or rich areas far away from the people they vote to import.

To put it simply, given a private property society, would it be possible to have mostly white private cities? Yes.

Would these cities be more prosperous than multicultural cities? Will they have more economic opportunities? Most likely.

Will they have to pay for other private cities to have security? Nope.

So where do you think the "dude multiculturalism is so lit" white guy will want to live if he gets a hold of some money? In a private city of multicultural poor or a private city of nuclear white rich?

>>132057688
Hoppe uses monarchy to argue against democracy, claiming that monarchy would be superior, but he's not a monarchist himself.

>>132057896

> state encourages movement of people to one central city, and libertarianism promotes the opposite.

Not really. Government subsidizes sprawls and rural communities because it builds and maintains roads everywhere and provides postal services to the most expensive areas. In a libertarian society, we would probably live in tighter spaces.

>>132058537
A priori false. You should read 'democracy the god that failed', we call it required reading for a while - it explains this.

>>132059956
>the fascist ball looks evil

mmmh

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>>132058537
That's extremely narrow-minded and also wrong. There's much more to society than (((roads))) and postal services. Big cities didn't even exist historically until the centralization of power became necessary for the government to maintain and exert its power to a big amount of people.
Particularly here in Greece, the socialist government had to practically bribe the people back in the '60s and '70s to make them move to the bigger cities, in order to then set its plans for a social state in motion. We had to wait for tens of years and a military junta a la Pinochet (although much shittier) to get electricity and roads to the rural areas of the country, and if it was up to the socialists it would have never happened at all.

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>>132043056
wat

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>>132059956
Why is David Friedman bad?
I bought his book Machinery of Freedom.
Seems pretty ancap to me.

In anarcho capitalism, the efficient thing to do as an individual, in lieu of a state, is to purchase property there where your rights are somewhat guaranteed so you can focus on your own area of expertise. Yes, the market might have solutions for everything the state offers, but let's get practical, nobody wants the responsibility of having to manage hundreds of insurances personally.

This would undoubtedly generate a massive demand for private cities, gated communities and covenants, all of them would have specific rules and laws which would be enforced via contract, you would acquire access to these properties, but you would still voluntarily subject yourself to rules, because you want to know your neighbor is also subjected to those same rules. Self interest.

These private cities would need to answer only to their inhabitants and nobody else. They would have no obligation to provide services outside of their borders, so rich people would pay for police to patrol their houses, not to patrol the slums in search for another victimless crime.

This means richer cities will be far more secure than they're today, and poor cities would be far less secure.

This by itself is a detriment for business to import immigrants. Immigration is highly subsidized by the fact that immigrants will be able to purchase cheap property yet receive services they could never afford unless paid optimally. Immigrants would be much better off in their countries of origin in average, enjoying the taxes from the few rich people their countries have, than in "outlawish" areas of an anarcho capitalist country.

1/2 ->

Another aspect of private cities would be that it opens the possibility of efficient discrimination in order to maintain property value. Would not be out of the picture to have cities that only allowed 100+ IQ individuals to purchase property within, for example. This kind of segregation would lead to prosperous models being emulated throughout the country. If a city is doing good and the demand for their properties can't be covered by the supply quick enough, other city businesses will quickly catch up and provide similar conditions.

Libertarianism cannot be compatible with democracy and therefore libertarians would be wise to purchase property there where democracy is strictly forbidden.

People who think people of color incur in high externalities will be wise to purchase property in cities where whites are the only ones allowed, and the success or failure of this model would lead to replication in other places or lead as example of failure.

This text is all from a big pamphlet I'm working on about private cities. Need to polish the ideas and structure but these would be some of the main talking points.

>>132060703
agreed, David is much better than his father.

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If you were to read just one Hoppe book, which should I get? Which is the most definitive encapsulation of his philosophy?

>>132060872
Democracy, the god that failed.

>>132060872
>a liberal gassing hitler
lmao ancaps

>>132060103
nah, he looks more angry than evil
have you met an openly fascist person that wasn't angry? especially with all that degeneracy going around? I don't blame em tbqh

>>132060872
I'd say >>132058770, but wait for others to chime in too

>>132060703

Hoppeans or "paleo-libertarians" hate him because they're disagreeable pricks and they feel threatened by real libertarians.

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>>132061126
>>132061072
thanks bros

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>>132061580
>real libertarians
there you go faggot

>>132060703
>>132061580
>>132060834
Meh, he's consequentialist instead of deontological which isn't my favourite, but I still like the guy. I could change it to milton friedman.

>>132060872
>>132061126
Even if you read another Hoppe book first, D:tGtF should definitely be on your list.

>>132061817

Cool red herring, bro.

There is nothing about agorism that prevents private borders either. Our argument against borders is strictly about government borders as such. No left-libertarian would say that there would be open borders in every case. It's just we're not so xenophobic.

>>132061817

What makes you any different from university social justice warriors who want to shut down the free exchange of ideas on campuses?

>>132055560
>nice shilling AnCom. Come out, come out, show your true colors!
>No one on 4chan would un-ironically use the word "bigotry". We all knows that's leftist new-speak.

Fuck you, I'm more Rothbardian than you could ever dream of being.

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>>132062532
>left-libertarian
you mean closeted commie?
collectivists GET OUT

>>132062902
>you mean closeted commie?
>collectivists GET OUT

Nigger, I'm a Left-Rothbardian: you know, when he was good. DIAF.

>>132062532
Our argument in favor of borders is strictly about private borders as such. No right-libertarian would say that there would be closed borders in every case. It's just we know for a fact that those that engage in open borders will be self destructing.

>>132062660
Private campuses should shut down the free exchange of ideas if they so wished.

>>132063044
>It's just we know for a fact that those that engage in open borders will be self destructing.

So, the meme is a red herring, thank you.

>>132063115
>Private city A engages in open borders/democracy/communist enabling, gets destroyed from within
>Private city B forbids communism and has locked gates and walls, prosperous.

Some memes tend to be red herrings, but I would not say this one is.

no one else has our work ethic, our personal responsibility, our heroic mentality
your average lolbert wants to build a one man island, a underwater city, a floating fortress, an army of robots, a colony on mars
everyone else wants to mask their laziness with oppression (fucking commies) or secret jews (dont let ur guard down tho, jewery is real)

all they want to do is say 'you didnt build this, social effort built this, now gimme gimme gimme gimme', all they want to do is be leeches and parasites, none of them can generate wealth or power or anything

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>>132063009
>I'm a Left-Rothbardian
that's about as retarded as a person can get
just call yourself a mutualist or whatever the fuck, drop the pompous terms

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>>132055219
You can't be a rational person without hating the average shit skin.

>>132047634My nigger. Ayn Rand is the /final/ redpill.

>>132064798

If you hate "shit skins" then you should hate white people too, since white people have been just as violent, if not more violent, than non-white people throughout history.

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>>132065222
>white people have been just as violent, if not more violent, than non-white people throughout history.

False, we're just more effective at committing violence, white people are the most empathetic race on the planet.

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Reminder that LfCap>AnCap
https://objectivismindepth.com/2013/12/19/an-objectivist-refutation-of-anarcho-capitalism-market-anarchy/

>>132065222
jokes on you, nobody talked about violence. Of course it's only natural to think of violence when you think about the brown races. Then again, that's what we are saying pretty much, you're the one disagreeing.

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>>132066170

When i think of white people, i think of violence.

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>>132066170

>>132066327
>>132066410
that's called cherrypicking, and it's NOT a valid form of argument

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>>132066327
>>132066410
>>132065533
>>132065222

The ADRA2b deletion variant appears in varying degrees across different ethnicities. Although roughly 50 per cent of the Caucasian population studied by these researchers in Canada carry the genetic variation, it has been found to be prevalent in other ethnicities. For example, one study found that just 10 per cent of Rwandans carried the ADRA2b gene variant.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150507135919.htm

>>132053747
Portubro I didn't know you went onto /tg/