>muh free healthcare There is no such thing as free. Free

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>>131853975

As a leaf, I agree.

Ralph Klein had the right idea. Privatize this shit.

>>131853975
*free does not exist.

>>131853975
>If you want medicine to be less expensive, then the only way to do it is by separation of health and state.

No, it's by making healthcare a non-profit system again.

Like it was before Reagan turned it into the mess it is today.

Non-profit healthcare + proper insurance competition

That is all that's required to fix healthcare, but it won't be done because too many parasites have their fingers in the cookie jar and would be going hungry if it weren't the way it is right now.

>>131854603
Day of the rake.

>>131854603
>non-profit system
No such thing. Every market industry has to generate increased value, which, in economic terms, is profit. Whether you call it that or not, that's what it is.

>>131854603
What province you from?
Because in Quebec the speed and quality of the service was (and continues to be) so poor that it was ruled a violation of human rights and the province was forced to allow private clinics.

Not too long ago, Robert Salois, the Quebec Healthcare Watchdog, did his job and published a report on various performance metrics of hospitals in the province, finding only a handful had anything remotely sane and suggested that other hospitals emulate their success. What do you think the Provincial Government did in response? If you guessed got rid of the Watchdog position entirely because they didn't want the bad press, then you'd be right.

So, unless you are so poor that every aspect of your life is paid from tax dollars and it would be impossible for you to otherwise get health care or you are insanely rich enough to afford paying the sky-high taxes for the public system on top of the costs of private health care, then you're stuck with a shit system that costs you a lot.

There's an expression in Quebec that describes what this does to the middle class: "Se faire passer un sapin".

>>131854591

Who pays the sun? Or the earth spinning?

>>131855102
You seem to be confused and believe I am advocating for some kind of singlepayer universal healthcare

I'm not.

I'm saying the laws put in place by Reagan which caused this mess need to be removed, and insurance companies need to have actual competition. Healthcare no longer being a for-profit industry means healthcare prices come down - no more $5,000 a day in a hospital bed.

Increased insurance competition means insurance prices for the average customer also come down.
Insurance companies pay less money, people buying insurance pay less money.

The only losers are the ones profiting like madmen with overinflated medical care in the US - which are primarily the hospitals and medical organizations.

>>131855102
Funny you should say that. In America, some people say, "Why can't we be more like Canada?" Meanwhile, Canadian politicians are continually promising their constituents better medicine. If the Canadian system is so great, then why do Canadians complain about it and demand a better one?
>>131855210
That's free in the same way the air you breathe is free, but even sunlight is not an unlimited resource. There is only so much you are going to get, especially if you live far from the equator.
>>131855378
>no longer being a for-profit industry
All industry is for profit.

>>131855378
If it's no longer a for-profit industry, there will be a grand total of zero advancement in medical technology and the quantity and quality of candidates for all related positions will decrease.
I do agree that increased competition is a good way of reducing consumer costs, though. Allowing people to purchase their insurance across state lines, for instance, would make that much easier.

At least in the US they actually GET hospital beds. In all my years of being a sickly motherfucker, I only got a bed ONCE. Every other time I would just be parked on the side of a hallway somewhere in a stretcher.

>>131855545
And then the system American politicians propose is absolutely nothing like the Canadian system ANYWAY. They literally only bring it up because Michael Moore is a lying cunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw

>>131855545
>All industry is for profit.

And it shouldn't be

Industry should exist for the benefit of society, not for the pocketbook of the owner.
Furthermore, not-for-profit does not mean doctors, CEO's, et al don't get paid.

Otherwise you end up in a situation like today, where corporations run amok and executives are full of psychopaths who only concern themselves with amassing ever increasing piles of money no matter the costs to society at large.

I am not saying that making money is a bad thing, but I am saying that making money isn't always a good thing.

Otherwise you come to a situation where it is completely sensible to eradicate all naturally replicating staple-foods plant life so you can sell your patented crops with terminator seeds that prevent reseeding of crops. Something that could pose a massive ecological disaster and possibly kill millions from starvation if something goes wrong - all for the sake of profit.

Or how about making people sick with disease, and then curing them?

Profit for profit's sake is one of the greatest ills of the world today and needs to be dealt with harshly.

>>131853975
Military spending is literally theft. Defense is a service, not a right.

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>>131855857
Defense is one of the few legitimate responsibilities of the government. Also, they spend wayyyy more money on DEM PROGRAMS than the military.

>>131855857
Taxation pays for military defense.

That's part of the social contract we're all born into.

We pay our taxes. The government pays us back by keeping social order (police), defending the borders (military), and resolving disputes (courts).

>>131853975
Universal healthcare + mandatory health and fitness testing to qualify is the true solution.
The fitness of the populace and the treatment of communicable diseases are no individual's business, but the business and duty of all.

>>131856034
Careful going down that route, because it ends up, for example, with mandatory vaccination, where the individual has no right over control of their own body.

>>131855846
>And it shouldn't be
I don't think you understood me. I am saying that there is NO SUCH THING as a nonprofit industry. It simply does not exist. All industries are composed of people working because they are motivated by the desire to earn money. It's just a fact of life.

>>131856089
There's nothing wrong with mandatory vaccination. People shouldn't have the choice to be stupid.

>>131856034
A lot of the health problems Americans are suffering from are due to the Government in the first place.
High Fructose Corn Syrup, for instance, is absolutely awful for you but is in just about everything on store shelves. Why? Because farmers are paid tax dollars to grow corn. Other sweeteners are suddenly no longer competitive and therefore become niche products. Now State Governments are talking about taxing things like sodas which are filled with them. They want to tax you on tax dollars. Stop incentivizing it to begin with!

>>131856243
If vaccines weren't mixed with potentially dangerous adjuvants in order to inoculate a larger amount of people with less of the actual vaccines, then people wouldn't have so much against vaccination.

>>131856243
>the people are too stupid to make their own choices so they should all vote on what choices everyone should be forced to take.
There's a problem in your logic.

>>131856168
>All industries are composed of people working because they are motivated by the desire to earn money. It's just a fact of life.

But they aren't.
People work because they NEED to earn money, not because they desire it. Money by itself is worthless. What's valuable is what money gets you.

People aren't motivated by money, they are motivated - at best - by what they can GET with money.

Frankly, what I've seen and read strongly suggests that once people have secured a large enough income, they begin to focus less on earning money, and more on working towards self improvement or improvement of society. The primary human motivation isn't greed, like you believe it is.

However there are certain (((groups))) in our society where the above doesn't seem to hold true, and they hold an inordinate amount of sway over our various industries. Murdering a few thousand or million for a better ROI while already sitting on millions or billions is A-OK for these types. What can they do with it? Who cares! They just want more.

That's not the kind of society we should aspire to become.

>>131855940
You can't just compare the dollar number of those two things you mongoloid

>>131853975
>implying that doctors don't get paid in a single payer system
What a stupid fucking image. Take that shit to Facebook or /r/conservative

>>131856569
In Quebec, med students are forced to work a certain number of years in the province after they graduate because there's a huge problem of people studying there (low cost) and then just moving south of the 49th and earning significantly more working there.

>>131856440
>People work because they NEED to earn money, not because they desire it.
Needs and desires are the same in economics. There literally is no difference.
>>131856440
>Money by itself is worthless. What's valuable is what money gets you.
That's true but irrelevant.
>>131856569
It doesn't imply that at all. It's an argument against this idea that medicine is handed down by the state in some deus ex machina way that defies principles of economics which have been known for 200 years.

>>131853975

Wouldn't the right to life come under healthcare though?

>>131853975
>air
>free
trees make air and somebody has to own those trees
fucking statist

>>131856407
I don't care if retarded adults die by their own stupidity, but when they choose not to vaccinate their children because of nonsensical myths then they must be stopped. Same with the retards who believe in homeopathy, they should hurry up and die.

>>131856760
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrT0kBeld3Q

>>131856794
Homeopathy is just medicine that has not yet been adequately studied. Aspirin used to be homeopathic medicine.

>>131856440
I'll do excess labour every day for my family.
I'll help out around the community now and again.
I'll keep in mind what's right for my nation and her interests, and might boycott or shun certain outlets or concepts.

That is how motivation works.
What motivation isn't is some sixth grade reading of Maslow's Hierarchy where you decide that self-actualization is only possible after you've nullified every conflict and struggle from which self-actualization has always arisen.

I hope if your kind ever truly makes life as meaningless and gray as you wish it was, it would still be physically possible for me to end my own life.
The only thing more terrifying than the brutality of Communist failures is the horrifying thought of Communist success.

>>131856243
But that's wrong.

1. Herd immunity isn't a real solution; You cannot inoculate everyone. Furthermore, you don't HAVE to. Media makes it seem like you need 95-99% of the population immunized to protect from outbreaks of disease, but the reality is often more like 30-60%. There is plenty of room for people to CHOOSE not to be immunized without having any ill-effect on the majority of society.

2. You have to infringe on a fundamental human right - for people to be secure in their own body. It is not YOUR body to do what you want with, and while you can try and force vaccination on people who don't want it, don't be surprised if they pick up a gun and shoot you back.

3. Vaccines are not 100% safe, never have been. You're putting a lot of trust in corporations to not fuck up. For examples of massive fuckups see Bayer infecting who-knows-how-many people with HIV because of tainted medicine.

4. You're assuming the people giving you vaccines actually have your best interests in mind and don't want to kill or harm you.

5. Mandatory vaccination is pushed by conglomerate pharmaceutical companies because they stand to make HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS off it. We're talking lists of drugs the government is 100% obligated to buy - whoever gets on that list has a license to print money. How many special snowflake vaccines will be added to the list? How many different vaccinations will people have to get? And all at the taxpayer's dollar! Before you know it, you'll have 5 year old kids receiving 30 vaccines at $500 a pop across a population of 330 million people.

6. People who want to be safe from a disease should get vaccinated against it. People who cannot get vaccinated for whatever reason - illness, allergies, whatever - will have to make lifestyle changes rather than demanding the entire rest of society bend over backwards to accommodate them.

Mandatory vaccination is all around completely fucking stupid.

>>131856089
Good, vaccines should be mandatory. Public health is everyone's duty.

>>131856760
The right to life means not killing you, it does not mean somebody has to come along and fix your life every time it breaks.

EVERY right is "People/Government will not fuck with you in X way". Once you understand that, they all make more sense.

>>131856917
>I'll do excess labour every day for my family.
sounds communist but alright...

>>131857021
>mandatory
yeah I dunno why everyone acts like fascists are somehow better than communists

>>131856760
No. Right to life means you have the right not to be killed. It doesn't mean others have a duty to sustain you.
>>131856765
I think most oxygen comes from the ocean.
>>131856794
You're moving the goalposts by talking about children. The degree to which people have a right to make choices which may be bad for their own health is a very different question than the degree to which they may do the same for their children.
>>131856888
No, homeopathy involves diluting medicine to the point that it no longer contains even a single mole of active ingredient. It's literally just a placebo.
>>131856917
>I'll do excess labour every day for my family.
>I'll help out around the community now and again.
>I'll keep in mind what's right for my nation and her interests,
Those things still have value to you in an economic sense, even if it is not monetary value.
>>131857021
>Public health
What does that even mean? The "public" is just an abstraction.

>>131857069
>sounds communist but alright...
That's my point. The desire to do work for free for the "benefit" of mankind is something that starts fiercely at home and then peters out the wider you cast the net. That labour excess was the foundation of civilization, but Commies think people will act like that for the good of the Party, but that's wrong.

>yeah I dunno why everyone acts like fascists are somehow better than communists
It's true we have a nasty habit of treating a nation as more than a holding pen for a bunch of random disconnected individuals.

>>131853975
You already pay more for healthcare per capita than anywhere else in the world. Free universal healthcare would save you money.

>>131857294
>the "benefit" of mankind
just fuck off back to the socialist left where your daddy mussolini came from

>>131856663
>Quebec

yeah, we talk about civilized lands though, not some frozen arabia

>>131857035
>>131857200
But wouldn't that mean that as long as they weren't the one who stabbed you, someone could just refuse to help and let you bleed out? That seems hypocritical.

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>>131853975

I dont really care for the ideological debate but its pretty stupid how much we spend compared to countries with universal healthcare and highly quality and consumer satisfaction

>>131858102
>Moving goalpost

>>131853975
So do you want to privatize the police too? It is also a service.

>>131860384
The fact that you guys elect your police chiefs already makes your police forces a lot better, DESU. In Canada they are appointed by the mayor. No possibility of corruption there. Nope.

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>>131855846
No you actual retard, all of those things you mentioned are injustice. Injustice is the greatest ill of the world today, and in fact the greatest ill of all ages. You are right that the regulation of (injustices concerning) health care and medicine are the reason both are so expesive, and that it's been done in search of profit. But for some reason you blame the profit, rather than the injustice. Normally I'd just tell you to read The Law, but I happened to be open to an applicable part so here. (Wall of text incoming)

>>131855846
>>131862400
Self-preservation and development is the common aspiration of all men, in such a way that if every one enjoyed the free exercise of his faculties and the free disposition of their fruits, social progress would be incessant, uninterrupted, inevitable.
But there is also another disposition which is common to them. This is to live and to develop, when they can, at the expense of one another. This is no rash imputation, emanating from a gloomy, uncharitable spirit. History bears witness to the truth of it, by the incessant wars, the migrations of races, sectarian oppressions, the universality of slavery, the frauds in trade, and the monopolies with which its annals abound. This fatal disposition has its origin in the very constitution of man—in that primitive, and universal, and invincible sentiment that urges it towards its well-being, and makes it seek to escape pain. Man can only derive life and enjoyment from a perpetual search and appropriation; that is, from a perpetual application of his faculties to objects, or from labor. This is the origin of property.
But also he may live and enjoy, by seizing and appropriating the productions of the faculties of his fellow men. This is the origin of plunder.
Now, labor being in itself a pain, and man being naturally inclined to avoid pain, it follows, and history proves it, that wherever plunder is less burdensome than labor, it prevails; and neither religion nor morality can, in this case, prevent it from prevailing. When does plunder cease, then? When it becomes more burdensome and more dangerous than labor. It is very evident that the proper aim of law is to oppose the fatal tendency to plunder with the powerful obstacle of collective force; that all its measures should be in favor of property, and against plunder.

>>131855846
For what purpose would someone with lots of money invest into a service that gives zero return on that money?

>>131864726
It'd be like buying a zero or even slightly negative return bond. It would only be a viable if you are operating on the assumption that you'll lose more money if you park it anywhere else. It's the sign of an impending crash.

Canadian banks are now selling negative return bonds, btw. The country is about to implode and most Canadians are blissfully unaware.