Why should I think atheism is more probably than theism? Forgetting

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>>131124949
ANSWER ME COWARDS OR ADMIT IGNORANCE

>>131124949
>why?
No particular reason. Just a series of spectacularly unlikely events coming together.

>>131124949
atheism is for morons, thinking 'pwning' religious pesantry makes them intelectual superiors

what is more scientific? what is more rational?

nothing becoming something
or everlasting power you can't imagine to start to understand or define

also, boobs

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>>131126011
I'm not talking about the formation of the universe, life, or conciousness. I'm talking about why in a bigger sense. Why something rather than nothing? Why not the void? Why existence?

>>131124949
It's human arrogance to assume we need to exsist for a reason. We are the product a random universe with no goal or purpose. Suck it up pussy, embrace the void and enjoy life, we'll all be dead sooner or later.

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>>131126162
Why doesn't God make himself apparent? Why does it always seem as though Christians worship in vain?

>>131126296
...because if you flip a coin, it's going to have to land on heads, or tails...or maybe on its side I guess. We rolled and got our current situation.

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>>131126352
>>131126296
I'm not talking about humanity you kike, I'm talking about existence. Why existence? Why not non existence? Wtf is this reality we are experiancing?

>>131124949
All knowledge is based through the chemical reactions in the brain
This knowledge of the presence of chemical reactions is a product of chemical reactions.
All arguments for knowledge are circular in nature and are essentially meaningless.

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>>131126407
so it's like a nightmare with no greater meaning? Just a weird temporary hallucination as we fluctuate back to non existence?

>>131126296

Keep impotently screaming at the heavens, there's no bigger sense. There's something because there couldn't be anything else. Eventually the existential crises subside, go get laid or get in a fight or something. We are animals and live and die like animals, and animals don't ask why.

>>131126518
It would appear that this is the case, yes.

>>131124949
A valid answer to that is probably either "I don't know", or "most likely for no particular reason".

>>131124949
I think we can all agree that ultimately there is some objectively ultimate force that rules the universe.

I would argue where we diverge is whether or not that force is divine and sentient, or lacking in any kind of consciousness.

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>>131126641
I sympathize with "I don't know".

Justify "most likely for no particular reason".

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>>131126711
I don't think atheists agree with that at all even though it sounds rather sensible.

>>131126711
>ultimate force
That's pretty ambiguous. I mean the laws of physics might not even apply everywhere. What would this ultimate force be?

>>131124949
replace god with reason. instead of worshipping a man in the sky, worship reason. "In the beginning there was the "word"--- in ancient greek word also meant reason. christianity is just stoicism infected with semitic ideas.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Agnostic atheism is the only logical stance, but I have no problem with agnostic theism if a person chooses to or has a personal reason to believe in God.

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>>131126867
>replace god with reason

Never.

I hate humanity and all it's inventions. I'll worship God out of spite if I have to.

>>131126803
I am an Atheist, and it pretty much boils down to this with all but the most militant Atheists I have had this discussion with. Take my anecdote as you will.

>>131126879
Religion is pretty useful though. It helps give many people a code to live by. Admittedly I'm not religious anymore, but I adhere to a strong personal code of morals and ethics. I guess I hope that God is real and that the good are rewarded and the evil are punished. But...I wouldn't count on it.

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>>131126879
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HgRWvqf-wM

>>131126439
"Why not non-exsistence?" says the person who exsists. There was a time of non existence, but guess what? No cunt was around to ask questions? You can perceive non-exsistence by extrapolatialing your own. Your reality is that of a highly evolved ape decendant living in a world shaped by time and built upon by other humans.

>>131126846
I never claimed to know, another difference between the two sides.

we're here to do what we want

>>131126296

If there was nothing, we wouldn't be here to question our existence :^)

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>>131127038
For what fucking purpose?

Doesn't the absurdity of existence itself gnaw at your soul?

>>131126755
Well, I'm more partial to the "I don't know" version, but going by Occam's razor, if there doesn't need to be any particular reason, why would there be one?
Why do you need a reason so badly?

>>131127057
But then it's so ambiguous that we don't even know if it exists at all. It's literally just a phrase with no real meaning at that point.

>>131127185
No. Because no amount of mental/emotional self-flagellation is going to change my circumstances.

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>>131127193
I disagree entirely about your use of Occam's razor.

Occam's razor is about the simplest solution, not non-solutions.

But anyways, don't be hung up on the word reason.

I mean reason in an equivalent sense to the word 'cause'. For what cause does existence exist?

>>131127199
If that's how you take it, that's your right to do so.
I don't see it that way. The existence of a higher force is painfully obvious to me. I just don't personify it.

>>131126981
you twit, you use reason to find a way to live in accordance with nature/reality and take command of it. that's the proper way to live, take responsibility and go out into the world

>>131124949
>humans for all history for the most part believe in some higher power
>humans for all history feel a sense of a need for purpose and meaning
>atheists, suddenly "well the default position is actually that there's no god, you better have proof if you claim god exists"
>atheists, suddenly "well why should there be a purpose, the default is total nihilism, you better have proof if you claim life has a meaning"

>implying atheism isn't the claim that needs proof
>implying a meaninglessness of existence isn't the claim that needs proof

Atheists aren't the most aware or thoughtful people, to put it lightly, anon.

>>131124949
>WHY THE FUCK ARE WE HERE?
Big bang, formation of atoms, formation of stars, formation of planets, formation of life.
>WHAT IS THIS EXISTENCE?
human condition
>WHAT THE FUCK IS REALITY WITHOUT GOD?
the same but less dishonest and you are the only one capable of fixing your mistakes

how any of you can claim 'just random series of event' theory without justification of the beginning of the cycle - all that logic is dead at the start

i don't want to antagonize, that just doesn't make sense without a theory of beginning, later sure, it can be random, but to be it so, there must be some way to start it all. Without it, you are just repeating, what seems to be 'im better than you and your silly religion' non argument

>>131127624
>believe
>feel

>>131127185
Not any more, after several years struggling with the meaningless of life I realized there doesn't need to be a reason. Find meaning in the meaninglessness, do what makes you happy (so long as it doesn't hurt others), learn, entertain yourself with books, games, films etc.
This life isn't perfect, (depending on your imagination) but it's what we have "Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV."

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>>131124949
>citing your own lack of imagination as conclusive evidence
I'm busy having a fulfilling existence helping others and trying to make the world a better place because I have agency and you can't stop me

>>131127747
AND CLEAN YOUR FUCKING ROOM

>>131127398
Lack of a cause is one of the possible solutions, and the simplest one. You can't dismiss it as a non-solution just because you dislike it.

>>131127711
I don't know what started it, and I have no intent of pretending I do.

>>131127741
>everyone globally believes something
>everyone globally feels something
>it means nothing tho

>>131127905
>it means nothing tho
Mmm...yep, sounds about right to me. Consensus doesn't make something true. And obviously it's not, "everyone" as you say it is.

>>131126352
In that case why should I care if I hurt others in the process?
If life truly has no meaning then GG Allin got it right.

>>131126365
thats actually pretty simple

just imagine what are you asking - if he did, there would be no free will, everybody would be scared for their life(soul) and "free will project" would have no sense

better question is - why free will at all
and no, i have no clue, hes probably just trolling

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>>131127613
Reason is fine but it's no God.

>>131127681
You fucking brainlet you don't comprehend my point at all.

>>131127747
So just forget about it until you die is your point? Just try not to think about it?

>>131127773
>I'm busy having a fulfilling existence helping others

That will be real helpful to us all in 100 year when we've all lapsed back into nonexistence.

>>131126011
You atheists are such a meme it's hilarious.
>hmmm no particular reason. My variable highly intelligent scientific experts have granted me the wisdom of the universe. I have transcended you religious plebs and have become intellectually superior.
Protip: you don't know everything

>>131128229
Never did claim I knew everything. All you've done is deflect and not respond to any of what I've said.

>>131127773
You seemed to have missed my point. At no point did I try to stop you, in fact the opposite. And the point about imagination is that the more advanced your imagination then you can perceive of a "perfect" world, of in my case world's in unity... All that shit.

>>131128218
this guy.... reason is a tool you use to find the way.... read some goddamn stoic philosophy or at least read the wiki

>>131127837
It's a non-reason and a non solution. I don't agree that Occam's razor suggests that you should pick non solutions to problems, or that non solutions are the simplest solution to problems.

>>131128005
The point is that it's damn close to everyone, of course there have been some outliers but that's not the point.

How the hell does that sound right to you? Of course consensus doesn't make something true but don't be so obtuse. The point isn't that everyone agreeing makes it true, the point is thinking "Hm, why does every culture everywhere have some sense of religious sensibility? Why do humans seem to be tuned this way?"

>>131128229
I know that i don't know everything, which is why I'm an atheist. And I'm not the kind that tells you I'm right.

>>131128496
>everyone agreeing makes it true
I want all anons to see this. Everyone last one of you should look at this. THIS is fucking insane, wrong, and a stepping stone to unethical behavior.

>>131128218
You can think about it, learn from it. But the answer to what is the meaning of life is that there isn't answer. So by searching frantically for it you will fail and tire yourself out.

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>>131128392
Reason is fine, but in what sense does it replace God? In what sense does it justify the absurdity of existence?

>>131128635
Lol you think that's my point or what I believe

>>131128658
Stoicism is predominantly a philosophy of personal ethics which is informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to happiness for humans is found in accepting that which we have been given in life, by not allowing ourselves to be controlled by our desire for pleasure or our fear of pain, by using our minds to understand the world around us and to do our part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others in a fair and just manner.
tl;dr nature has a plan and you are a part of it

>>131128661
But that's basically exactly what you're suggesting. All you've done is then go, "now that's not what I'm saying but...it's what I'm saying." You're literally trying to use consensus as an argument in and of itself.

>>131128060

Because most humans don't reach the point of abject nihilism, and the ones that do either kill themselves or find some kind of spirituality or other way to fill the void

Also compassion and empathy are hard-wired into our brains, at least for those of our group. Humans want to live by default, and live socially.

Ask yourself if, even if with a newfound apathy, you could kill a random person in cold blood.

Hell, maybe you're a genuine psycopath. That doesn't mean others will abide by it. Your death means nothing either way.

>>131128787
No it's really not at all. Read my second paragraph in the post you replied to.

>>131128474
Justify why it's a non-solution. It's a solution just as good as others.
If you asked me what a koala was thinking while eating eucalyptus, I'd answer "most likely nothing", because koalas are dumb as fuck, that would be a perfectly good solution.

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>>131128776
Stoicism is a fine philosophy to live your life by. I have no problem with it.

My concern here in this thread is more about the absurdity of existence if God is nonexistant.

>>131128928
Yeah it literally is saying, "all humans are tuned this way so because everyone thinks this...IT'S TRUE!" Literally trying to use consensus.

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>>131124949
I'm an atheist who believes in one thing
RIGHT
WING
DEATH
SQUADS

>>131128941
"nomnomnomnomonomnmnomnom"?

>>131128060
Use your empathy what if someone treated you in such a way, what if the whole world behaved that way. Also why would you want to behave in such a way? Are you saying without the fear of God you'd be a complete sociopathic asshole?

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>>131129067
nice

>>131129025
what about this:

"thats actually pretty simple

just imagine what are you asking - if he did, there would be no free will, everybody would be scared for their life(soul) and "free will project" would have no sense

better question is - why free will at all
and no, i have no clue, hes probably just trolling"

>>131129025
that depends on how you define God in the first place FFS. I define it as nature

>>131129028
Nope. Everyone is tuned this way, so why are they tuned this way? You inserted the "because everyone thinks this, that makes it true". My point is that there is a reason everyone thinks this, even without communication between each other.

There's a difference between
>everyone thinks this, therefore it's true
and
>everyone thinks this, why is that?

>>131129254
Okay...so provide an answer. Because your question isn't actually an answer.

>>131129184
or the universe, or for Christians the Holy Trinity AKA reason

athiests can't give reason why!

must be MAGIC SKY DADDY! only possible explanation.

>>131124949
Universe creates itself out of nothing
"Pops" into a roomless timeless reality and creates space time and all laws of nature, and creates life
We cant even create life in the lab, but surely thats how it happened

>>131124949
Op you are summarizing apologetics which one of the arguments is that creation is the ultimatebproof that there is a creator. I'd recommend you read it. It gets into metaphysics and all types of good stuff.

>>131129478
Are you referencing a book? What book?

>>131129311
My answer is that there is in fact more to reality than the atheists believe--that theism in general is true, or rather atheism is wrong. Makes more sense than "everyone throughout all time has been generally totally wrong, and the universe popped into existence without cause"

>>131129624
wouldn't it be more awesome if we gave it meaning ?

>>131129624
How much more than atheists believe? What more exactly?

>>131129723
How could we possibly do that? What sort of authentic meaning could that be if meaningless beings just randomly dreamt it up?

>>131129750
I said that literally in the next sentence--atheism/materialism is wrong.

>>131129857
to me that would be the ultimate achievement though

>>131128941
It's a nonsolution in the sense that it makes no attempt to to explain the causation of reality, which is the crux of my question.

If I came across the ball on the ground, would I claim that it has no reason to be there because I am ignorant of it's origin?

>>131124949
Welcome to nihilism. here's an introductory song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU8HrO7XuiE

>>131129624
Then prove it. Atheists ask for proof, that's it. Until such time that reliable, solid proof is offered, your claims of there being something more are merely opinions. Atheists don't claim to know everything. In fact, atheists claim they don't know everything, and that's fine. Rather than coming up with a supernatural answer not grounded in fact, we say the question is unanswered.

Who says their has to be a greater purpose or design?

We're no different than any other organism on the planet. Our purpose biologically is to procreate and pass on our genes.

Big difference is we have intelligence, emotion, etc. Create your own damn purpose, go out there and do something to be a positive influence on the world and others around you. Don't need some make-believe sky daddy to do this.

>>131129857
You said that believing that, "there's more to reality than atheists believe" because it, "makes more sense than everyone throughout all time has been generally totally wrong and the universe popped into existence without cause." Why does it make more sense? Why then did the universe come into existence? At what exact point did things start coming into existence as a result of accidents instead of the alternative?

>>131124949
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVpXrbZ4bnU

We are just a wave of potential.
A wave of possibility.

We exist because of all the things that do not exist.

Time is like a loop. Each loop is another possibility.

I wish there was a god. So that I may cut it's head off and take it's place and do some good.

who claims that they don't know?

cause atheism is a claim that they know, and the answer is - 0 gods

>>131130311
>Why does it make more sense?
Because where there's smoke, there's probably fire.
>Why then did the universe come into existence?
God created it.
>At what exact point did things start coming into existence as a result of accidents instead of the alternative?
Ridiculous, non-sequitur question.

I could frame this differently and ask you all the same questions.
Why does it make more sense that everyone independently came up with the same wrong answer? (Don't be confused. Same in the sense of non-atheistic, not that they have the same faiths) Why is meaninglessness the default for the universe when that isn't the intellectual history of humanity?

There is no purpose or meaning to life, and to even ask that question is utterly pointless because the concepts of purpose and meaning are both entirely human. There is no such thing as purpose or meaning outside of the scope of human experience. These concepts are our inventions. The universe is utterly devoid of purpose or meaning. We do not fully understand the physical nature of it completely, not yet, so we cannot say exactly how all the physical laws interact with one another to create the exact physical outcome we have today. Some say the universe has actually always existed, and has never "come into existence", it has always been here, just shrinking and expanding eternally, i.e the "big bang" and the "big crunch" happening over and over and over again for all eternity. It just IS, meaning and purpose are simply not applicable, and you have to realize that every time you feel that tinge of "but...but...". it is just your human mind struggling to perceive reality outside of how it evolved to perceive it in the ancient wilds.

>>131130724
>where there's smoke there's fire
But...what's the smoke. You're just beating around the bush and peddling cryptic bullshit.
>God created it.
Is there any evidence to support that? At all?
>Ridiculous
It's not a non-sequitur question. I want to know, that at what exact point god decided, "I'll leave stuff up to chance from here on out."

>Why...answer?
I can't speculate on that. But I suppose it would fit in to the answer to your second question.
>Why...humanity?
Because people don't want to feel bad about themselves, and they want a sense of validation. That's a global phenomenon. Like people smiling when happy, or liking to touch others that they like.

>>131130651
>gnosticism/agnosticism = theism/atheism
wew

>>131124949
Christian general thread for those interested >>131128073

>>131131249
Why is the universe being uncreated the default? That's the newer idea, historically.

I never implied there was a point where things suddenly were left up to chance. That's Deism, which is another discussion entirely.

Why do people want a sense of validation? Why don't they want to feel bad about themselves? If there's no truth to it, why?

>>131131656
You think even the best of people don't sometimes tell themselves half-truths, or falsehoods to comfort themselves? After a while it becomes ingrained, nobody questions it, and people take it very seriously. The universe being, "uncreated" became the default for me due to a lack of evidence on the part of the opposing claim, combined with what we know about all the things in our universe that did just happen by sheer chance. I can tell you as a matter of fact that things happening by sheer chance are real. I cannot in good faith say the same about, "acts of god."

>>131127527
we could be a simulation and this higher force is some fucko on his psp casually simulating a few universes

>>131124949
That's the thing. We don't know what caused the beginning of the universe, and perhaps it was a god. But none of the major religions say that, so they're wrong. Not to say there isn't a god.