When will you realize that there's nothing wrong with Universal

>>129448665
To achieve a Universal Basic Income, you require a tyrannical government.

>being less useful than a robot

File: Universal_Income_Is_Degenerate.jpg (79KB, 1024x633px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 1024x633px

>Everyone gets $2,000 a month no questions asked.

>Suddenly the price of every commodity service triples.

What could go wrong am i rite?

>>129449020
As a result, the government has to step in by building affordable housing. The ones who tripled the rent suddenly have nobody left who is interested in their housing, forcing them to lower their rent in long terms.

File: 1497174922588-2.png (165KB, 655x473px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 655x473px

>>129448665

>>129448665
Death is necessary for any kind of improvement.

>hey guys what happens if we gave everyone a flat rate and then everyo.. oh God why is a cheeseburger 20 dollars ahh fuck
No.

Fuck your inflationary welfare scheme.

You want a space age welfare system? The government takes control of your bank account and pays for any healthy food, water, bus/train transportation and rent (if this system is successful) you pay for with that card. This is for adults, children obviously don't have cards so lunch and dinner is provided at over funded public schools.

Otherwise, sales tax is ceased because it too just makes everything expensive, income tax is replaced with 5% increments from 20% to 65% and I quite like carbon taxes, especially if they're only used to prop up nuclear industry.

Oh, and pay for your own fucking university with loans, it's literally the definition of sound investment if you choose something that both pays well and that your race and gender is allowed to do.

>>129448914
I know diddums, I know. Think of it more like being less useful than someone with a computer and a programming development environment. That's actually who is replacing you, the programmer just hacked reality to be in many places at one time.

Likewise, the YouTuber replaces the news reporter and the 4chan shitposter replaces the philosopher.

File: Disgust 2.jpg (33KB, 600x886px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 600x886px

>>129449232

>Building over the greenbelt for blacks and muslims.

Mate, I'd rather cut off my penis with a rusty bread knife.

>>129448665
>get basic income for everyone
>everyone stops doing anything useful
Where are you going to get the money for basic income then?

>>129449020
>maximum prices

>>129448665
No experiment has ever been performed in which the UBI had to be paid by the recipients themselves. EVERY experiment so far featured a huge external capital influx. It is that capital influx that provided the community benefits. Not the UBI.
'Automation' is literally a fucking meme used to scare the people into socialism. It will provide more jobs, not less.

>>129449232
Yes because artificial government price ceilings make things cheaper like in the Soviet Union.

>>129449555
>robots that will be able to repair themselves and other robots wont have an impact on the means of production

SHIGGY MY DIGGY NIGGY

>>129449508
>how does economy 101

Dumbass. If cars are capped at $100 no one will sell cars.

>>129449414
Well that or you force the building owners to only demand what their apartments are actually worth. Either way, the free market wont guarantee housing for everyone for acceptable prices. It doesnt do so today and it won't with a basic income.

>>129449673
>means of production
Commie kike detected

The only way it would work is if you tax peoples potential to create value regardless of whether they chose to work or not. High IQ, healthy, fit or otherwise productive workers would not receive a basic income, they would receive a basic tax bill payable regardless of whether they have actually worked. This is equivalent to forced labour

basic universal income is a retarded idea, because it will change absolutely nothing, yes you get some $$ on your bank account, but this $$ won't buy you anything, cause anything worthy will cost so much that in order for you to get it, you'll have to go to work, money will become pretty much useless on Zimbabwe scale

>>129449739
Who decides what they are worth? You understand that prices are currently set by what people are willing to buy/sell for on a second by second basis.

File: 1465099603508.jpg (22KB, 480x335px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 480x335px

>>129448665
>We might not need it now, but it's the thing that's going to take us through the incoming Automation age.
It'll speed up the automation age, you moron, when people who do work and get paid need to be paid more to offset the basic income, their production value will decrease, thus perpetuating the need for automation, eventually everybody will be out of work and living off the basic income, assuming it can be provided indefinitely and doesn't lead to an economic and social meltdown

>automation makes production cheaper and more efficient
>universal basic income somehow increases prices anyway

Good economics, /pol/

tell me again how money isn't a jewish invention?

>>129449784
>refuses to address argument and spouts nonsense about a phrase used as a label to discredit poster
strawman detected

>>129449739
Value is not determined by cost, centralised calculation of value in any meaningful sense of the word is only possible with complete knowledge and then would require the simultaneous optimising of literally millions of equations.

A loaf of bread that takes a million man hours to produce is not worth more than the same loaf produced by a process that requires one man hour

>>129449945
it increases prices through inflation, fucking huemonkey

Have you seen what happens to people when all aspects of survival and hardship are removed?
You'll see the birth of Slaanesh.

>>129449945
When people have more money they are willing to spend more. Stores will capitalize on this by increasing prices. Those who work get more money on top of the universal income so they can buy more.

We wind up with the same system as currently just inflated.

>>129449844
What alternative do you suggest when all low skill jobs(50% of jobs in existence) get outsourced to robots because they make less mistakes and are cheaper to "employ" than humans?
Genuinely curious.

>>129450111
Yes, but in the end this argument is rather a pro basic income than a con.

The competitive market has a hands off eugenic effect that rewards productivity and punishes parasitism. Poverty, inequality and all those other mean things you want to eliminate will only grow as you pay for their continued survival.

You want to encourage laziness? Because that is how you do it.

>>129450200
You're thinking top down. The economy is from the bottom up. Society will need these people otherwise no one will have capital to spend. So it will fix itself.

Capitalism is a self correcting system.

>>129449945
Automation only makes products and services cheaper once they're used on a massive scale. As >>129450198 said, there aren't going to be improvements, if anything only drawbacks.

Then again, didn't expect a huenigger to understand economics.

>>129450087
Except I didn't say it wouldn't influence the means of production. I said no net jobs would be lost. You have some fucking guts accusing me of strawmanning.

>>129450318
>capitalism will self correct 50% of the work force no longer having anything to do
how?

>>129450380
The magic invisible hand, you fool

>>129448665
Human brain = meet people and advantage your ingroup at their expense = human civilization.
Sage

Universal basic income is only sustainable for a time.It won't be enough money for people to go out and spend it to stimulate the economy. It may be enough for people to scrap by month to month. This is a scheme of the central bankers to keep the fiat money printing going for a time. This will bankrupt governments before long. Universal basic income is the central bankers effort to keep a dying economy afloat.

Yes Goyim, Universal Basic Income will free you up for so many fun activities. Please destroy your entire structure of civilization so you can come into the warm embrace of the state.

>>129450349
Net jobs being lost is a moot argument considering that for the length of civilized history, every new emerging industry created new jobs to keep up with population growth, as society becomes more autonomous and digitized, jobs creation not growing with the population renders more and more people unemployed, what do those people with no jobs to do, do with themselves?

>>129450380
If not enough people are employed and earning then no one will have money to buy products. So these industries will either die or find an alternative. Also, those who do not produce will perish, which makes the problem go away through attrition.

Eventually left to it's own devices a median stable population will hold at which Productivity matches Income.

people used to haggle. jews didnt like the price of goods being up in the air like that. they wanted something they could control. insert currency. fast forward today. they crash markets as they see fit when its time to invest in another nations currency.

>>129450087
Nope. That comment fully addressed and deconstructed your subversion succinctly. Lampshade yourself

>>129448665
Prepare for Hyper Inflation when this is instantiated. Screencap this and buy a rope while it is still cheap.

File: 1479179676712.jpg (61KB, 720x621px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 720x621px

>>129448665

>>129449232
>the government has to step in
Eternal votes, eternal struggles, eternal maze.

>>129450548
I don't know. But creating government jobs with fakes money isn't the solution.

>>129448665

There's not going to be basic income. Nobody is going to pay you to eat and breathe through your mouth all day. The vision of a completely automated world is HIGHLY speculative to begin with and may never come. But, even if it did to us still have to find some way to offer value to other people in order to eat. And if you couldn't, then you'd starve or die at 35 (like people do in Africa).

>>129450200
I don't believe in automation, because robots have to be made, they take up loads of resources that are expensive already today, I think in the long run a hard working low payed job done by a human being is cheaper than having a robot

>>129450657
A robot never tires. Never eats. Is always 100% productive. Doesn't need benefits. You would be a fool not to get one. I bet they will finance them to businesses. Like multi-purpose robots for rent.

>>129450548
You treat growing unemployment due to automation as if it's a given fact but it isn't. Automation has been going on for hundreds of years and not once has it led to mass unemployment. A shift away from manual labor, yes, but that only opens up new doors with new jobs behind them. This has always been the case and there is no valid reason why this time would be different.

Universal Basic Income is the new trendy slang for the kids to say "communism" these days?

File: 1484342709413.jpg (52KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

52KB, 1024x768px

>>129449232
Who would build those buildings? I mean if I could use the same time for enjoyment and self-improvement, I'd really have no interest in building any houses.

Currently I'm both designing and constructing buildings, which earns me a good sum of money. The first one (design) I could continue, but good luck getting me down to the construction site to do actual work.

>>129448665
But the fucking leeches only do the enjoyment part.

No self improvement, no helping others and no meeting other people.

>>129450812
I agree, but this is only plausible, if people are able to adapt and aquire new skills to be productive in the new labor market.

>>129450835
Literally this

>>129450597
/thread

>>129450914
That's what humans do fuck face. We change, adapt and build our environment. Don't underestimate people.

>>129450914
People sure as fuck won't adapt if you pay them to sit on their ass all day.

The urge to survive is a strong one. Provided with the right incentive people will adapt to changing circumstances.

>>129450835
Yes, it is and they will "print free money" to pass out to the public. This will kickstart the Economy at first. But the value of the fiat currency will go down and spiral out of control. The result will be hyper inflation and a collapse of the currency will occur.

>>129448665
>Thinking the government will let any retard have as many kids as he wants or hell, any kids at all when the gov has to pay everyone just for existing

And thats off the top of my head

How many other freedoms would this shit trample

free income scares people the same way fire scared cavemen.

>>129451053
People have forgotten that money is a commodity itself.

>>129450987
Not everybody is able to adapt and just will ask for handouts.

>>129450835
the difference being universal.

>>129450798
robot is not 100% productive and never will be, cause it is a machine, it will fail, need upkeep, maintenance,

>>129449922
Yes of course. But i've also learned that the free market generally ignores low cost apartments anyway. The problem already exists today. A basic income will not solve it, but neither will a free market.

>>129450812
There was never a period in time where machines were capable of learning, as we are seeing now.

Factories created automated processes that required humans manning the oversight and building of the parts themselves, machine learning is capable of taking over at this current time. Why would a big business employ humans that require being paid on a weekly, fortnightly or monthly basis, when they can outsource that labour to some japanese chink company that offers machine learning capable solutions?

Businesses operate as cost effectively as they can, im not saying anytime in the near future is this going to be possible, but certainly within the next 2 decades or so, there will be a massive hit to how many humans will be employed, claiming "automation has always been a thing" is not true in the intelligent automative capacities that are available in the modern day and age.

>>129448665
You need to grow out of socialism.

It just serves to creat more beraucray who drain you with taxes.

Instead promote the free market.

I'm all for a minimum hourly wage or at least to mandate that workers and employers have to base the compensation in their contract on an hourly basis to prevent overworking.

My homeland for example has a 350 Euro minimum wage.
But it's calculated on a monthly basis.
So you work your self out 12 hours every single day without rest for this small ammount it slowly erodes at your person.

>>129450835
it's an even lazier form of communism. communism actually cares about having a productive society (at least in theory). these UBI retards actually managed to come up with something worse than communism

File: Misha laugh.gif (3MB, 250x255px)

3MB, 250x255px

>>129448665
>work after basic income

>implying anyone would work if the government payed people to not work

>>129451172
They will die. Life is a struggle and there is no free lunch.

>>129449390
t. into level economics major

>>129451227
"Hey our robot failed and/or is unproductive!"

"Alright send it back here's a new one."

"Thanks!"


Wow that was easy.

File: 1496041518631.png (109KB, 644x598px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 644x598px

>>129448665
Wow, I just stopped in on this thread to tell you how much of a fucking faggot retard you are OP.

Seriously you have no concept of economics whatsoever do you? Fucking. Idiot.

Alright, see ya later.

File: tumblr_oqqrazHj6A1rbjj14o1_1280.jpg (180KB, 1080x1074px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 1080x1074px

The NIT is where only a poor person who was left without a job because the modern job crises receives $15,000 enough to live on because they were in need.

The UBI is where millionaires and billionaires like mark cuckstain receive $3000 in their mailbox and the poor cant afford shit because its ""universal"" and had to pay for everyone rather than targeting the people who were screwed over by the automated economy.

Nice welfare system UBI cucks.
You didnt think it through too much.

>>129451360
At least the population will be skimmed to a more sustainable level. We have been living on the back of cheap energy. As soon as the supply's lines cannot be maintained shit will hit the fan.

>>129451435

Ill take a large Big Mac meal, extra side of fries.

>>129448665
So, who does the work?

This Universal Income bullshit is like Communism-Lite

Fuck off, Commies

>>129451172
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men — not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.

>>129451564
It's communism minus any economic thought whatsoever.

>>129448665
this will never ever work, also it will kill men forever and we'll be in male genocide

This is what happens when an entire generation doesn't learn how money works.

>>129451565
I like this one, I hope the people will be able to listen when this point in time occurs. It is about taking responsibility and grasping the opportunity's in this moment.

>>129451668
>in the next 20 years, businesses wont need plebs anymore to produce their goods and provide their services
Nothing will happen, thanks chief economist of buzzfeed

>>129451341
>>129451341
>>implying anyone would work if the government payed people to not work

Actually thats the problem nowadays that basic income would fix. Nowadays you get unemployment money in most western societies. Often this is enough to have a basic living. If you take then a simple job you life doesnt get better, but instead you just lose the unemployment money and have the same living standard. Thats why many long term unemployed people and espeically in europe lots of 3rd world immigrants have no interest in working.
With basic income EVERYONE gets the money. Even Richie Rich would get his lets say 500 € per month. But then if someone takes a small job, he will get his salary on top of that. So working pays off again, especially for the poor and uneducated who could only stack tin cans in a supermarket as a job.

Basic income will make people more motivated to work then the current systems of food stamps, unemployment money, housing allowance etc etc

I think this is the big misunderstanding most people have about basic income.

>>129451431
are you an imbecile ? do you believe robots will be given out for free ?

>>129448665
Tho I like the idea of universal basic income. The attached picture is wrong. "Money to live" and "self improvement" are connected for most ppl. If everyone had the money to live, most would give up on any form of self-improvement. The virgin NEET numbers would go through the roof.

>>129451803
Why the fuck would they be?
>what is warranty
>what is an investment in the short term to maximize revenue in the long term with the removal of human error.

>>129451803
Businesses will rent them.

>>129448756
FPBP

>>129449354
This.

>>129448665
Work makes you free

>>129448665

Who remembers the predictions that, by the year 2000, we'd have flying cars, and hoverboards, etc?? So this new batch of retarded are speculating that, in the near future, we'll have machines that invent and build and repair each other... so we need worldwide welfare payments (starting now) to prepare for it.

Give me a fucking break. As far back as you care to look, people have been making false predictions about future technology. Why don't you lazy, neet faggots just go get a job already and stop rationalizing your present uselessness?

>>129452034
Ya. At best you're just going to have AI's working alongside humans checking vitals or diagnosing shit. they will make humans more productive and capable.

>>129451385

Introductory Economics is all one needs to see how flawed UBI/Communism is.

basic income is the only way you're going to get women to stop entering the workforce instead of becoming happy homesteaders early in life. Men will still want to work and be productive and it will make all the trades/service industry jobs increase in value.

File: image.jpg (124KB, 1200x630px) Image search: [Google]

124KB, 1200x630px

>>129451694
An entire generation of entitled little cunts
You shouldn't be able to have children or vote if you don't pay tax this problem has gone too far
Cut our losses and remove the weaker of the species who cannot bring themselves to work hard
Just look at the youth vote for labour in uk
And when you try and talk to them about why socialism and communism don't work they just can't understand/ignore your hate facts

>>129450597
this is the only acceptable response here.

>>129452106
Hell. Just go into a 4th grade classroom and tell the children to move a stack of weights back and forth across the room. Give everyone a token to buy candy whether or not they lift the weights. Eventually they will stop lifting them because why would them.

Do the same with another classroom but only offer tokens when the weight is moved. Suddenly people are much more productive.

>>129451279
You grossly overestimate machine capability to 'learn'. Machine learning in most companies is nothing but a fancy term for linear regression. A very large amount of human input is required and there are no signs of that changing any time soon.

>>129451901
everything that is rented is gonna fail for sure, look at rental cars, all fucked up, the same will be with any robot, do ensure that it wouldn't happen you have to put a pretty big price tag for your service, so it is irrelevant where you get your robots from, they're gonna be expensive as fuck
>>129451883
human error will persist with robots, cause robots are made by human

>>129448665

Because when you give monkeys food, they end up throwing their shit everywhere.

File: 1496202323684.gif (2MB, 423x234px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 423x234px

>>129449354
>some """"people"""" actually think that people would still work if they were not forced to by the goverment

>>129452340
Until they are not.

>>129452280
You grossly underestimate technologies ability to grow exponentially.

File: tumblr_ogdr47mXWg1t4mby8o1_400.jpg (22KB, 330x236px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 330x236px

>>129452251
it doesnt matter how much people stop working as long as the country remains free

if some service goes offline then immediately someone will have a need for that service again and recreate it

File: 1496252030470m.jpg (77KB, 800x1024px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 800x1024px

>>129448665
universal basic income will only be feasible once most jobs are taken by robots and AI

universal basic income is a great idea. all we have to is perfect a.i., humanoid robots and perpetual motion machines to power them. shouldn't be too hard.

if people leave the workforce due to basic income that only makes the demand of those jobs they left go up and the people who do want to work will get paid more for doing those jobs.

>>129448665
I find most conversations about this to be very idiotic. People are arguing if people recieving money for nothing is a good idea.
The more important question is where do you get that money from, my government and many others are already running a defficit, and implementing a UBI is no cheap thing.

>>129452665
Oh boy. You just economisted the shit out of him.

>nothing wrong with Universal Basic Income?
except the fact that it requires Universal Basic Theft you fucking commie.

>>129452671
you just print it jew. Stop killing the vibe man.

>>129452453
so you imagine that one day one of your simple say coffee pouring robot starts to think and comes up with the means how to produce any robot ? and that sounds completely ok and sane to you ?

>>129452665
I'm not so sure because where will the money come from? And will there be any point in working if you get taxed to oblivion

>>129452665
>and the people who do want to work
which will be no one thanks to UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME.

>>129452445
>what are people high in conscientiousness and industriousness
>not having read Note From The Underground
We're beasts of burden. We need a load.
If we had nothing to do but eat cake and relax the first thing we would do is wreck it so we had something to do

File: 1492733075907.jpg (456KB, 1200x1920px) Image search: [Google]

456KB, 1200x1920px

>>129452905
which also isnt a problem

if you could get away with no one working thats actually the ideal

>>129452905
?????
Some people are driven to work
That's why some people never retire

>>129452863
Alright, here is how money is introduced. The government decides how much to print. They then loan this money out to banks. The banks then loan this money to business owners who use the money to turn a profit. Then they pay the loan back with interest.

>>129452985
everyone just needs to become capitalist, and the proletarians just need to die out.

same result, without universal basic income

>>129452990
Except that the people who do work will be at a massive economic advantage and will cause prices to rise so much than not working becomes untenable.

>>129448665
>comes from former Communist shithole turned corrupt EU puppet state shithole
>doesnt understand why 21st Century Communism is literally one step closer to the State killing everyone off for being useless waste of space, red item on budget, welfare cheats.

There will be nothing to stop the State rounding you all up and killing you all and calling it an "efficiency dividend". There is literally no reason for the State to support people if they are nothing but useless welfare consumers.

>>129451733
>I think this is the big misunderstanding most people have about basic income.
I can think of at least three more.

What if you have multiple kids you need to take care of? Then you're still forced to work and don't you dare claim "people won't make stupid mistakes like have children they can't afford" because that's something they already do.

Second when exactly do you start getting basic income? Let's say a family has one child. They get basic income for one child, but let's say a family has 10 children which is actually fairly common for say gypsy families. Do they all get basic income for nothing, pool their resources and continue doing no work? What about immigrants? Can a million unskilled africans drop by and just demand basic income the moment they arrive?

Third, like many people pointed out who exactly is going to be working? Now my second point already addresses the point of why anyone would work at all, but let's talk about supply and demand of jobs. Why would anyone work a shitty, but well paying job when they can just pursue whatever useless "dream job" they have? Sure you can get out of college and set up your mural painting business that there's no demand for, but meanwhile who's going to collect your garbage?

>>129452990
>Makeing up a fantasy to argue for UBI
>>129452985
>no money is being made so no money can be taxed so no money can be given (LELE JUST PRINT MORE XD)
>>129452953
>Makeing up a fantasy to argue for UBI

You fucking dumbasses never understand that the money for UBI will come FROM people who still work so they can make more, they will get taxed more just like they are now

why the FUCK would ANYONE want to work when all you have to do to get more money do like the niggers do and have another child

File: basicincome.png (153KB, 654x471px) Image search: [Google]

153KB, 654x471px

>>129448665
ftfy

>>129452243
Welcome to feminized society.
Remember, it's greedy to want to keep what you earned, but not greedy to want to take what others have earned.

>>129453328
salut from swamp jew.

>>129448665
but I do already anon

>>129453528
Easy for a racially pure country like yours to say. It would never work in my country.

>>129453196
But where do you get the money to pay for UBI?

>>129452835
No im saying that companies that provide humanoid robot AI solutions arent just gonna specialize in coffee pouring robots, i imagine it would be worth their while to R&D into as many different laborious tasks that their tech will allow them to, thereby giving them as much reach in their industry they operate in.

Basic economics, grow to survive as a company.

>>129448665
>wants to self improve
>wants to meet people
>wants to help community
>can actually feel enjoyment
FUCKING NORMIES REEEEEEEEE

File: image.jpg (60KB, 519x412px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 519x412px

>>129453244
I'm just speculating but I doubt ubi could work
It could become a pointless system of mild wealth redistribution - I could easily see that happening.
Like people still work here when you can get welfare and do nothing for the rest of your life.

What you're arguing for sounds like communism and the death of freedom (or alternatively mass starvation) in which case I can only recommend suicide.

File: images.jpg (9KB, 231x218px) Image search: [Google]

9KB, 231x218px

>>129448665
yeah but how even if we forget that a good chunk of people will just sit on their asses you will get max migration to your country so it will never work can you imagine all of me and Africa going to Europe

>>129453668
>racially pure
>more than 20% of population immigrants

>>129449739
Every dumb faggot blames today's problems on the free market as if markets are free today

the only people left in this thread are jews crying about how basic income is inevitable for the future lol. people will still want to be productive and will actually be able to be more productive when they arent having to kill themselves working 9-5 living paycheck to paycheck.

>>129453731
Univesal income will just replace all other welfare.
You will not be rich by it.
You will not have a basic income on the level of a normal salary.
Its payed by taxes like every other welfare as well.

In germany you unimployment money called "hartz4" which is basically a form of basic income - just that its very complicated system. And it makes people not want to take small jobs, because they will just lose their benefits and are no better then before.

Still only ~5% of people are unemployed. Everything is covered by tax anyway.
Basic income is really not as revolutionary as all you guys act.

IT JUST MAKES WELFARE SIMPLE.
WORKING IS ALWAYS BETTER THEN NOT WORKING.
Almost every modern country has a welfare system already. Its all covered by taxes.
Basic income does not have to be more expensive then that. It just makes administration easier and small jobs pay off MORE for the people. not less
Jesus. i mean come on. You act like people will get 10k per month.

>>129450893
Because you get more money if you work dumbass. It's not that people don't work anymore at all it's just so you won't die in the streets. Are you telling me you wouldn't take an extra 2k/month to do the same shit you're doing now

>>129450198
except higher income people who would contribute more in tax wouldn't have that money to spend though, ie theyd end up paying more than 2000 extra for a 2000 ubi

>>129454104
Still doesn't address the question of how you're going to pay out significatnly more money, think at least 5 to 10 times as much with best case scenario an equal amount of people working and worst case scenario, even less people.

File: image.jpg (40KB, 499x385px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 499x385px

>>129454104
Should be replaced by goods and services imo
It's immoral to let a struggling person die because they are unable to work for a short time
They could be hard working but on shitty wage and the they get sick and can't work- the government should support them
But also I live in scumbag central and people just buy big TVs and drugs with their benefits
And the tax payer shouldn't have to fork out for that

>>129451694
Jews are aganist it guys
>tfw /pol/ suddenly loves ubi now

>>129454104
But you can't pretend like the cost of UBI would be about the same as the current welfare cost. And the difference in cost could surely be spent on something better, like research or public works, or just lower taxes wich would probably help the economy more. You'r just arguing for more welfare basically, under the guise of a different system.

>>129451439
markn cuckstain probably payed 50,000 for that 2,000 he can have it, seriously learn how economic policy works

>>129454554
But thats the case
>>129454300
You are not paying out siginifcantly more money.

Lets say someone gets 400€ welfare + 400€ housing allowance. They have to proof they have no income. They have to proof, they have no valuables savedup. They have to proof they actually pay the 400€ as rent etc. All this takes up a lot of administration which is expensive etc. (Thats the money you will save!!)

This is an example of a current welfare system.

In a basic income system everyone just gets 800€. Yes that sounds like a lot more. So how do you cover it? Well everyone (on average) is just taxed 800€ more.
Working people should have no trouble paying the extra taxes, because they just get the money from the government anyway. On average someone with a shitty job will maybe end up only paying 200€ extra. Someone with a good job maybe 1000€ extra. Basically its the same as a normal welfare state. Its really not rocket science. All other welfare systems are payed for already and society didnt collapse yet and we also dont have 50% unemployment rates

>>129454208
>that id

>>129452453
>You grossly underestimate technologies ability to grow exponentially.
Yeah I've read Kurzweil. He's a hack. A future path like Neuralink imagines is infinitely more likely and guess what: it involves humans. Why the fuck would we replace ourselves if we can simply upgrade our brain?
Do you actually know anything about the current state of machine learning or are you simply parroting futurism/IFLS?

File: 123.png (115KB, 247x247px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 247x247px

>>129448665
Why would you post an arguement accompanied by a counter-arguement picture?

>Money to live
Essential to having a life. Societal prosperity follows due to necessity.
>Self-improve / Enjoyment / Meet People
Not essential and you can do that with hobbies instead of actual productive work.
>Help community
Valid only for a small percentage of people. Majority act solely for their own selfish gains.

>>129454696
>But thats the case
I'm guessing you men the cost will pretty much be the same.
So then you just want another way to redistribute the welfare money, so that everyone recieves the same ammount.
But keep in mind that wit UBI the number of people on welfare will increase, so the money each person gets wil decrease from the current setup, and will also put a lot more pressure on tax payers since there will be less of them. Also, everyone getting the same ammount is not right, some poeple with dissabilities for example actually do deserve more money than some bum who doesn't want to work.

>>129449232
>government has to do everything for me

File: zuckerbeg-main.jpg (49KB, 615x409px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 615x409px

OP is The jew from facebook. dont believe his Jewish lies. just trying to get our approval.

>>129455283
>So then you just want another way to redistribute the welfare money, so that everyone recieves the same ammount.
Yes

>But keep in mind that wit UBI the number of people on welfare will increase

Why? Its really not fundamentally different then any other welfare system.

There are a few major differences, and i think they are mostly positive, though yes, there are some complications.


1. Working always pays off
For me thats the number one thing. In current welfare systems when you start a shitty part time job you can end up having just as much money as on welfare, or in extreme cases even less.
THATS an incentive to not work, and thats a huge problem. In a basic income system this vanishes entirely. Also its much more just.

2. Administration
The whole process of administrating wellfare and things like that is expensive and inefficient as fuck. This costs will greatly reduce.

3. Doesnt take regional differences into account
Thats maybe the only negative. Even in the same country, in different regions you have different prices. Espeically for housing, but also just your normal supermarket prices.
For exmaple in germany in some parts in the north east you need much less money than lets say in bavaria

File: tumblr_oqz18r8hCo1s2yc47o2_1280.jpg (353KB, 1000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

353KB, 1000x1000px

>>129454567
and he also payed for a million other people to get their UBI because you felt the need for it to be UNIVERSAL instead of just helping poor people

your system would have higher taxes and less money to help people who actually need it

NIT is the solution UBI is for cucks

File: 20160630_000800.jpg (2MB, 3264x1836px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 3264x1836px

You're out of your goddamn mind if you think these multinational corporations will suddenly be paying higher taxes to cover UBI. There's lobbyists in D.C. for this exact reason.

>>129449354
I wanted to post this, good one anon

File: image.gif (246KB, 256x192px) Image search: [Google]

246KB, 256x192px

>>129448665

File: barney.jpg (3KB, 256x192px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 256x192px

>>129448665
There is absolutely everything wrong with UBI. Your pic implies that without the need to work people will spend their time thinking. This is not a universal truth. It wasn't even a whole truth in the days of Socrates and the Philosophers of Athens.

Fact of the matter is most people are fucking retards. If they don't have to work they'll just sit around watching TV all day. They don't stimulate their own minds unless absolutely necessary and even then they hate it.

Remember: Socrates was sentenced to death for "corrupting the youth."

>>129448665
>there's nothing wrong with universal basic income

cool, let's see the diagrams of how much everyone gets.

Let's see people in charge actually take their fair share, and not any more.

let's see uneducated niggers, criminal spics, and radicalized white trash have enough money to spill out from their containment zones.

solid idea there, ivan.

>>129455724
>Why? Its really not fundamentally different then any other welfare system.
People can just quit their jobs without reason and recieve a living wage. This means more people will be on welfare. If you want to keep the same overall spending, that means they'l recieve less.
The complaints you have with the current system could be rectified, don't need to throw the whole thing away just to replace it with comething worse.

>>129448665
The second ubi becomes a thing i will be the neet.

As everyvody fucking should. Why work when all of yojr money goes to autists playing videogames and dying their hair purple while complaining about the partiarchy?
>tfw this is already reality

File: Takers.jpg (65KB, 900x600px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 900x600px

I don't know how much you assholes like science fiction, but this is the future under Universal Basic Income. Hoards of the impoverished living off of minimal income while waiting for years to be allotted a job. They live far from lives of luxury, and are tantamount to the homeless population, but are there are huge numbers of them everywhere because the impoverished and jobless have no difficulty reproducing.

>>129456209
In germany you can always quit your job and get "arbeitslosengeld 2"

Nobody does that. ~5% people are unemployed.
It just doesnt happen. You dont want to give up your job and your 3000€ per month, where you can afford a car, live in a house, go travelling in your hollidays, just so that you can now live in a tiny flat iwth 300€, to barely cover some shitty food while you sit around watching tv.

File: venezuela.png (2MB, 2441x2362px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2441x2362px

It's an interesting glimpse into the mentality of the communist to see the cry for "basic" income. If they believe the government can just give them enough free money to make them comfortable, why not demand the government gives everybody enough money to be filthy stinking rich?

They set their sights so fucking low in life it's no wonder why they're doing no more than sitting in mom's basement waiting for Bernie Sanders or some other Jew communist to give them free shit and take care of them like a child.

>>129448665
If money were gold, you'd be in a better position in your argument, but money is fiat.

In other words, if you have fiat currency (we do), then all you would be doing with "basic income" is resetting the ground level for having nothing.
Let me explain...currently, the ground level for having nothing is "0"...you have 0 dollars.
Everyone is born with 0 dollars, that is the ground level.
But you are insuring that everyone is born with a guaranteed income of more than 0...let's call it, $17k.
Then, with everyone having an immediate $17k every year, that $17k becomes the ground level...at that point, $17k = $0.

Prices adjust accordingly, so do wages. No one will work for $17k a year, because they get $17k a year, anyway. The economy does not care about getting its hands on your $17k, because everyone will be spending $17k regardless of how much they work or produce, even if they don't work or produce anything.

Prices will jump until the average person is expected to earn and spend $17k without getting anything of value for it (as he produced nothing of value for getting it).

You will then be clamoring for greater and greater increases in your "basic income" and inflation will skyrocket.
A better solution is "basic employment," where you are given a job when you cannot find one, working on public works projects (this is probably what the building of the pyramids was really all about, in the past).
This would result in inflation, as well, but at least society would benefit from it (for a while).

Your real problem is twofold: fiat currency, and a lack of tariffs putting you in competition with workers who will sell themselves for a little rice and rat-meat. You can trace the cheapening of American workers right back to the mid-90's, where we allowed the oligarchy to buy our government to the point where they could eliminate our tariffs. Your current poverty was planned and purposeful, because destitute workers have no power.

>>129456305
Interesting, I guess UBI could be used by the jews as pressure valve for the growing inequallity.

>>129454696
>Thats the money you will save!!
You're crazy if you think it'll require any less bureaucracy especially how susceptible basic income seems to fraud and that's not even accounting for the costs of having to restructure and organize the facilities to provide it. That's a lot of money sunk into just making it possible.

About 10% of Germany's total workforce are on welfare. If you give everyone basic income then you're paying 10 times more. Also if you increase tax by the same amount then once again you're disincentivising work which is pretty much the very thing you were criticizing in the first place as an argument for basic income.

The more you write the less sense it makes.

>>129456535
This is dumb, you're speaking as if the money is being created.
And even if it were to involve money creation, the USA created trillions of dollars through QE to bandaid the 2008 crisis and inflation hasn't moved an inch.

>>129456375
So then what's the point of it? You make it sound like it's the same thing as now, except it will be less birocratic. Like >>129456654
said, there's no way that makin all the population part of the welfare system is more efficient.
The only improvement I could see is how it doesn't make sense to work part time with the current system, but that could be fixeed just by changing the tax brackets.

>>129448756

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.... no you don't
Just because you get a basic income, it does not mean that you have to restrict the gains or property of one (Hey, they are doing it anyway-IN A DEMOCRACY<oh, da'h freedom>)
If you belive that it requieres like some extreame economy plan to make such a income a reality, well, first of all, you already are in a extreame economy plan and we do live in a age of abundance. Our current economic system intentional makes poor quality products not because "it makes the economy works", it is because we do not know how to decide "who deserves what" other way that is not money:

"A hard working person deserve more things, so, the more he works, the more money he will have, and so on he will be able to buy more things."

We have the tecnology to make objects, like lightbulbs, stockings, compu-tas to last for centuarys. Imagine it, we only use the factorys to produce what we need or want and then just shut it down until it is needed again, of course we will mantain it. If the industries were used like this, we will use less resources of the planet, we would contaminate less (due to less use of industries and we are still using the product instead of throwing it away). The problem with this is that it is hard to mantain millions of job if we simply just used the factorys when we needed it, so we have them constantly on, and to not overflow the market, we simply disign them to stop working.

This is how a "competetive" soceity works, and I can see why people would say it is necesary, but with automation - the whole point of having this economic model is pointless (at least in the interest of having jobs and a funcional soceity). No, we do not need comunism or a dictatorship, we need to change how we define who deserves what and at what bases.

File: shrug.jpg (7KB, 300x196px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 300x196px

I never really looked into this shit, so bear with me:


Is this UBI actually an income that EVERYONE gets, no matter what?
So if I work or don't work, if I'm as fuck or stinking rich, I still get my 800$ autism bux every month?

Who the fuck is supposed to pay for that? And how the fuck is it not gonna cause massive inflation?

And if it isn't so, if I need to meet special requirements for it (for example having autism) - then where is the difference to regular autism bux?

>>129448665
>self improvement
>meet """""people""""
>help comunity
>enjoyment
>reasons to work for anything, ever
pffft HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>129448665
Jahans pls go

>>129448665
UBI is literally something that benefits NEETs and penalizes actual hard work. Why would somebody work and be useful to society when the (((state))) sends you money so you can sustain yourself as a NEET. The dumb commies that shill for this are once again forgetting their "great" idea will not work due to human nature.

>>129456535
>A better solution is "basic employment,"
Here we have the Great Paradox. The rapturously tragic and amusing revelation that we are the true Marxists and the leftists are just fucktards who call themselves so.

If you look at early Communist or Socialist slogans you'll find that the "Right to Work" is a major talking point from their rhetoric. The people who supported it didn't want free shit, they wanted a good job. However, much like Capitalism, the men at the top had different plans.

Remember kids: All economic systems are broken until the corruption at the top is burned away.

the argument against UBI
>everyone getting all this free money is the problem
>some people need to be poor to support the economy
>if we didn't have poor people living paycheck to paycheck spending everything they earned as soon as they got it the economy would collapse
do you even hear what you sound like?

>>129457497
Not to mention (((who))) are these people on top that are responsible for this (((corruption)))

>>129448665
>incoming Automation age
We've been automating stuff for the last 50 years with exactly 0 effect on employment. Stop reading Reddit.

>>129456375
Now that I think about it, even the part time job thing wouldn't be fixed by UBI. If someone gets a job they effectively wouldn't recive UBI anymore, since they'd have to pay it back in taxes.

>>129457572
>everyone getting all this free money is the problem
There is no such thing as free money. Money is best understood as stored work, like potential energy. Without work to back up the currency it is worthless.

>some people have to be poor
There will -always- be poor people. Tell me, were there fewer poor people in Soviet Russia than the US during the 60s? No, there weren't. Giving people basic income doesn't instantly make them less poor, it just makes the money worth less by extension. This is a basic property of inflation.

>if we didn't have poor people living paycheck to paycheck spending everything they earned as soon as they got it the economy would collapse
Hey look it's something you completely made up.

>do you even hear what you sound like?
You know what you sound like? An ignorant fucktard stripping all arguments down to a form you can easily hand-waive with incredulity.

File: 1486763692462.png (365KB, 821x516px) Image search: [Google]

365KB, 821x516px

>>129457215
>Is this UBI actually an income that EVERYONE gets, no matter what?
yes, because otherwise you have to decide who gets what (means testing) which involves setting up a bureaucracy which is a waste of money and everyones time.
>Who the fuck is supposed to pay for that?
the people paying taxes. if you have a progressive taxation system that means the rich.

>And how the fuck is it not gonna cause massive inflation?
there hasn't been much inflation worldwide since the 70s. massive welfare systems dont seem to cause inflation. massive tax breaks on the wealthy dont seem to cause inflation. global collapses of the financial system dont seem to cause inflation. bailing out the financial system with trillions of dollars of created currency doesnt seem to cause inflation.
im starting to think economists dont actually know what causes inflation.

>>129457962
>There is no such thing as free money.
never heard of tax write offs? what does the phrase "everything is deductable" mean to you? i guess you think rich people pay for everything they own?

>>129457962
>There is no such thing as free money. Money is best understood as stored work, like potential energy. Without work to back up the currency it is worthless.
are you a rentier trying to convince others to work on your behalf?
money does not represent work it represents value.

Like automation was the first innovation to ever force change in the job market and fuck some idiots out of employment. The whole concept of UBI magnifies the advancement of one area of production while ignoring any possible change in new types of jobs. But I do like the part where the Commie wannabes admit they are/will be useless in under a century.

>>129458108
>never heard of tax write offs?
Do you think the value of those write-offs is just pulled from the ether? Every single dollar, whether it be made of paper or stored on a server, makes every other dollar worth less by extension. Again, this is a basic property of inflation. It doesn't matter what form the money takes or where it comes from, it's still taking value from somewhere else in order to exist.

>>129458278
Value is produced by work dumbass.

>>129458444
>Value is produced by work dumbass.
because when i rent an apartment im paying each month for the work the apartment does for me?

>>129458444
dont look now but you just made the argument against having money.

>>129450087

Strawman implies that you're a man.

>>129458522
You're paying each month for the work it took to make the building, the cost of the property taxes, and the risk on the investment that the landlord purchased. Not to mention the legal obligations that the landlord has to you as a tenant. I don't know why I have to point this out to you.

>>129458522
Keeps you sheltered doesnt it?

>>129458673
that makes sense if the apartment stops costing money once those things are paid off. what happens when it starts making a profit? where is the work?

>>129458007
>if you have a progressive taxation system that means the rich.

lol ok I've basically heard enough at that point.

You know that "the rich" can't be taxed that way, because they are smart enough to re-invest their profits, right?

The only way you could do that would be by introducing property taxes which comes with a whole bunch of its own problems - basically cutting away growth, potentially degrading mid to large scale companies, hurting the job market, hurting economic locations and effectively hindering technological progress especially pushed by larger coorporations.

no
fuck that shit
go find a job you lazy faggot
I'm not gonna give my future technology up because some bunch of bay area queers wanna try their luck with communism yet again

>im starting to think economists dont actually know what causes inflation.

Yeah you apparently don't know either, which makes a good case for how reliable your arguments are. Thanks, that will be enough for now anon.

>>129448665
Universal income can't work before we get rid of all the non-Europeans sorry.

>>129458863
>progressive taxation doesnt exist
it's literally how every not shit country taxes

>>129458522
>I'm paying each month for the work the apartment does for me?
Actually yes, part of it at least:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depreciation

>>129459052
if apartments didn't make a profit they wouldn't even exist.
that profit is not for work.

>>129458848
>what happens when it starts making a profit? where is the work?
That was the entire purpose and intention of constructing the building, paying the property taxes, and investing in the land in the first place. All of those things have inherent value, but only when they are combined and developed can they be profitable.

Again, this is the basic concept of investment. The profit is essentially paying the entrepreneur for their industriousness. Their ability to coordinate work and produce a product that is worth more than it had been worth before.

This is the basic concept behind capitalistic economies. Industriousness is a value that value is called profit. Eventually over time the product must be maintained, reproduced, or otherwise reinvested upon. This is also a long term risk associated with entrepreneurial effort and profit, in an ideal world, is also a buffer against long term unforeseen costs.

>>129448665
Universal basic income is a good idea when there's no other state benefits.

If it replaces dole, national healthcare and pensions then it would be amazing. Then you can automatically say 'state university fees are now equal to basic income' and effectively restructure it.

The reason you CANT have universal basic income is that the majority are mentally deficient.

Imagine telling a chav that he's going to get £1000 a month for NOTHING. He's going to go mental. Problem then is that he also loses his other benefits.

>>129449232

Except that with Universal Basic Income, you can force property owners to pay tax on their land and buildings because there's no longer a system in place to avoid tax. That forcibly lowers property prices and rental fees as he now struggles to maintain his business if he tries to force £500 a month for a single flat while having the resident pay tax on it as well.

>>129458848
>What happens when it starts making a profit?
The landlord has a reason not to kick you out. Is the profit margin really a novel concept to you?

>Where is the work?
Right here >>129458673
>Not to mention the legal obligations that the landlord has to you as a tenant.

>>129459251
but you said money represents work.
every dollar of profit from an apartment of which there is an infinite potential do not represent work.
please stop jerking off the rentier.

>>129459209
>if apartments didn't make a profit they wouldn't even exist
see >>129458848
why does the apartment still cost money when it starts making a profit

Just stop.

Poor people who vote for gibs would never allow "rich people" to get their share of the ubi. Resulting in just another welfare program.

>>129459422
money does not represent work.
every dead economist is rolling in their graves.
if money represented work the rentier vultures would not exist. collecting money creates nothing.

>>129459393
>but you said money represents work.

The work of the people who constructed the building, who were paid.

The work of the landlord to fulfill the terms of his contract toward you as a tenant, along with any subcontractors that landlord hires to fulfill those terms such as electricians, plumbers, etc.

The work of the person who coordinated the purchase of the real estate that it was built on.

The work of the person employed by the bank who issued the loan that the building was constructed with.

Why do I have to point all this work out to you? Money's only worth something if it moves. Stored work spurring more work.

>>129452034
>flying cars, and hoverboards
Whole argument about UBI aside we have these

>>129459626
>The work of...
only one of those people gets paid each month from your rent.
and he has no obligation to work.

>>129459828
>only one of those people gets paid each month from your rent.
It doesn't matter who gets paid by the person renting the building. All the people who worked to construct that building were paid. All of the people in that sequence were paid by the owner in order to create the asset. The asset then provides income for the owner.

It sounds like to me you're just pissed off because people who own investment properties get money for allowing other people to use them.

File: tyler-the-creator-200-082911.jpg (57KB, 600x675px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 600x675px

>>129458963
There's a difference between taxing the "rich" in a state and taxing a bunch of corporations that would have the money to "care" for the rest of a nation.
The corporations that would have the money for that (apple, google, microsoft, etc etc) work on a different, international level.
The actual corporations taxed solely on a national basis (i.e. those that aren't necessarily global players) provide jobs and growth to their respective economic locations.

Take austria for example. You can't tax fuckin apple around here. They are gonna give you the fucking finger and move out. That's just how it works. Hell, there are even international fast food chains that wouldn't invest in austria because of its taxes (thanks social democrats by the way).

Now who are the rich you can tax in austria?

You could tax for example the steel factory in Linz, which is a huge ass steel factory providing quite a bit of the national income.

I can tell you one thing though:
If you fuck with that steel factory on a tax basis, that town will go bankrupt detroit-style - 100% guaranteed. Voest - the steel factory - provides a good two thirds of the towns jobs, commissions for companies, administration and even fucking academia.
They ALREADY provide for the community big time.

And now THEY are supposed to pay for some lazy ass fuck that can't get his homo ass up to find a job?

First of all: That shit ain't fair. But beyond that: If Voest now has to pay for that gay shit it's CERTAINLY gonna break that companies neck - and surprise, surprise - it's gonna ruin the economy of this already broke state.


This whole idea is a pipe dream.

File: Cuckberg Wife.png (1MB, 1154x726px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1154x726px

>>129448665
Fuck off cukberg shill.

Reminder that silicon valley is pushing the muh automation narrative to justify UBI.

>>129460027
Remember when this thread was about UBI, instead of explaining why an aussie has to pay rent on his apartment?
Good times.

>>129457140
>Just because you get a basic income, it does not mean that you have to restrict the gains or property of one
By taking away money and guaranteeing a universal basic income to people, you make the proportional cash available in the economy smaller, this causes larger fluctuations in industries than if you didn't have a social safety net like it in the first place.

>If you belive that it requieres like some extreame economy plan to make such a income a reality, well, first of all, you already are in a extreame economy plan and we do live in a age of abundance.
It does require a major shift away from the current carrot and stick incentive system that has given us an age of abundance in the first place. After you lose the ability to punish people in a workplace by removing them from their wage earning position, all you're left with is violence as an incentive to work.

>We have the tecnology to make objects, like lightbulbs, stockings, compu-tas to last for centuarys. Imagine it, we only use the factorys to produce what we need or want and then just shut it down until it is needed again
whenever this happens, the government mismanages it as it cannot predict with accuracy the amount of light bulbs, stockings, computer parts, etc that people will need. This is the main cause of shortages and mismanagement of goods in communist nations.

File: wakarimasen.jpg (30KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 600x450px

>>129460482
It seems his intent is to attempt to refute my assertion that money is best viewed as stored work. I don't believe he has successfully refuted me, but maybe I'm just a stubborn asshole.

>>129449020

I don't understand why people can't grasp this. The inflation would be devastating. Same deal if we raise the minimum wage too high.

>>129460848
you know what else is best viewed as stored work? a work voucher. but then rich people wouldnt be rich anymore and would have to do actual work to get paid.

>>129449358
Let's start with you commiefag.

>>129460848
how do you quantify work? is it the amount of hours somebody has worked? In that case does that mean that a plumber who spends 12 hours fixing 1 leak is worth the same as a plumber who fixed 12 leaks in the same amount of time?
what about specialists who work for small periods of time but do work that nobody else can do? Should they be payed as much as somebody who works 2 hours mowing people's lawns?

Who determines how much labor is worth in this system? Who weighs the interests of these people against the interests of others?

I know literally 1000 people that would never work another day in their lives, just smoke weed and masturabte if they had UBI.

And I only know like 1100 people.

>>129461932
>I know literally 1000 people that would never work another day in their lives
the point is that is going to happen either way because of robots.

>>129462232
I read somewhere Apple was building a factory in America is that true? automated mostly ofc

>>129448665
Inflation, inflation, inflation. Your money will be worth less even if you have more of it. Enjoy your $25 big Mac,no fries

>>129456881
>This is dumb, you're speaking as if the money is being created.
What's dumb is that you don't seem to know that it IS being constantly created.
Go educate yourself on fractional lending by banks, then reconsider your statement.

File: gettinpaid.jpg (32KB, 450x227px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 450x227px

>>129462469

>>129461718
>how do you quantify work
There's not a lot of ways to define work other than "any effort which produces an asset, property, or desired result." That includes renting out a property, mind you, as being sheltered in a functional home is a desired result.

>Who determines how much labor is worth in this system? Who weighs the interests of these people against the interests of others?
The worker and the employer whom created the agreement to carry out the labor, along with the legal protections provided to them by whatever governing body they happen to be subject to. You misunderstand this entire situation as anything other than two people choosing to enter an agreement for a specific end. That is what is occurring here: Mutual consent.

Did your landlord fuck you over and the government didn't do shit about it? Fuck I don't know man go shoot him. I don't make apologisms for exceptions to a consensual agreement.

>>129452953
Lel, the first thing I'd do if I had UBI would be quit my job and stay in my apartment.

>>129462364
It's up in the air. But I'd say that it's likely.

File: DUDEWEED.gif (40KB, 655x473px)

40KB, 655x473px

>>129449354

File: 4c (215).jpg (73KB, 600x782px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 600x782px

>>129448665
>nothing wrong with Universal Basic Income

Welfare mothers make better lovers!

>>129462232
>job closes down because robots take over positions
>people take up jobs in marketing, robot engineering, robot development, and robot repair.
god forbid something like this happens, we should set up protectionism for all human run industries at prices that benefit the already established government aided monopolies.......

>>129449020
>what are price controls

File: workfasterivan.png (55KB, 642x461px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 642x461px

>>129463330
>set up prices so people make things at a loss
>send them to gulag for selling those things on the new black markets that arise
de brice of gommunism..........

File: mileyknows.png (2MB, 2048x1536px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 2048x1536px

>>129462926

File: nofumz.png (53KB, 590x618px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 590x618px

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXCzeouz4DQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXCzeouz4DQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXCzeouz4DQ

Behold.

File: GJSTRSRGJTRT.jpg (32KB, 655x473px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 655x473px

>>129448665

>>129463583

rimshot

File: DDC.png (356KB, 510x506px)

356KB, 510x506px

>>129448665
Expectation:
>self improvement
>enjoyment
>meet people
>help community
Reality:
>pic related
NEETs are just white niggers and deserve to be exterminated.

>>129449508
>shortages
really makes me think

File: 1497174922588.jpg (67KB, 655x473px)

67KB, 655x473px

>implying prices wont explode
>implying you will be able to have a normal life with UBI bucks
>communism worked

I can't wait until ubi is enacted. I'm gonna sell so much weed

>>129448665
id argue most humans need the stress of working to make ends meet to distract them from how meaningless their lives are without that pressure

>>129464739
>remove UBI and welfare
>neets will either self-terminate or start working for money

>>129449232

>the government should take control of the economy
>this could never go wrong

venezuela is a thing right now but apparently you commie kiddos dont read the news

>>129456375
Stop ficking lying.

No you can't just quit your job and decide to live off of hartz4/arbeitslosengeld.

In fact you don't get a fucking penny if you quit on your own terms, you have to lose your job by no fault of your own for this this shit to work.

Hence why people visit doctors to get out of work until three employer decides it's enough and fires their asses.

For any kind of welfare you first have to prove your need, your inability to work and your desire to work.

As someone who tried to go full neet I'm gonna tell you: for that amount of money this hell of bureaucracy is not worth it...

Even in my worst days I decided that working a shitty job is easier to maintain than pulling of the welfare neet lifestyle.

Mind you there are lots of people that DO decide it's worth it..
And there would be a hell of a lot more if it became universal and less bureaucratic

>>129454104
finally somebody notices the 'basic' part
if you can actually live on this amount of money, more power to you, since you obviously obtained enlightenment and are free of worldly possessions

>>129463084
>marketing, robot engineering, robot repair become automated. Then what

>>129448756
fpbp

>>129463330
>what is venezuela

>>129448665
Sad thing is you don't even need to reach for the toilet cleaning jobs to debunk the picture. Even artists would quit their jobs and paint landscapes for fun instead of making concept art for Destiny 15. So Destiny 15 developers would have to pay out of their ass to get those artists back. And then you'll have to pay 60$ for each mission in Destiny 15. And then in a few years this will cause a huge increase of overall prices in all the industries and UBI will stop working.

File: question.jpg (43KB, 400x400px)

43KB, 400x400px

>>129448665
OP I agree that the automation age will dramatically reduce the number of human jobs and cause mass unemployment., which leads to:

THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION:
For the love of all that is good and green on this Earth, can we please fucking stop immigration once the automation age eliminates jobs? Why the fuck would we want to bring in even more people in the middle of such a crisis where unemployment might be higher than 50%?
And is anyone retarded enough to think that we can have Universal Basic Income combined with open borders? If you mix the two, you will get an unending tidal wave of people swarming into your country that will make the refugee crisis look like child's play.

>1 post by this ID
you got baited by the eternal Bulgar with the same pasta that's here every week

>>129466245
>if you can actually live on this amount of money
That's the premise of UBI. It's the amount you can live on. Otherwise there's not much point to it

>>129466346
>if i can't think of any other possible outcomes they must not exist
if you're so good at predicting the future then why are you fucking off on /pol and not sailing around on your yacht, moneybags?

>>129449020
kek it will be $500 max

File: wake me up.jpg (34KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 600x600px

>>129465715
>make enough dosh off of investments and trading with minimal effort per week to live comfortably
>don't welfare leech
>still get contempt from wage slaves due to having no 40 hours per week job and have to answer questions like "what do you do all day?"
>mfw "hobbies" is not a valid answer

>>129448665

So of you don't do nothin you still aint got nothin?

>>129448665
They don't realise those 'virtuous' reasons to work don't get larger.

>>129467078
>make enough dosh off of investments
Tell us the truth, how much did you inherit?

File: 1478267960201.jpg (1023KB, 2560x1536px) Image search: [Google]

1023KB, 2560x1536px

>>129466937
Oh yeah I know that, it covers the basics of food, rent and power
It does not afford the lifestyle most people desire
a lot of opponents to this idea seem to think otherwise, and that people will quit their jobs to sit in the dark, not consuming anything and getting free money with no ambitions, especially considering they now have a floor on which to risk new ideas
That'll never happen, no sir

>>129467226
I used my student loans to get the initial capital, got gains while working for two years and living like a poorfag hermit to pay off that debt asap without losing the capital.
The gibsmedat way is not the only way, Ivan.

UBI is the same old commienomics Utopian nightmare pimped with a snappy new marketing plan.
KYS

>>129467700
More bullshit from the mongol

File: perestroika.jpg (191KB, 1244x674px) Image search: [Google]

191KB, 1244x674px

>>129454104
>>129454696
Thank you for this.

UBI is really a libertarian idea that dismantles the welfare bureaucracy and offers a more human alternative. The real tragedy is the increasing number of people employed by the government. Conservatives act like they'd rather more people work for the government than not at all, showing their true colors.

>>129467853
Stop wasting your entire paycheck on weed and dakimakuras and start putting money into things that make you more money.

>>129467853
>>129468129
Actually scratch that. With the weed legalizations passing all over, weed industry is a potentially profitable place to invest right now.

>>129467929
Classical Libertarians want to dump all welfare, but I can't speak for these Gary Johnson-style Nu-Libertarians. I don't know what the fuck his answer would be.

>>129467929
UBI + open borders = ???

if i get UBI i'm just gonna stay at home and shitpost until i die

>>129468453
I assume you need to be a citizen to be entitled, or have X years of tax payments.

What happens on UBI when some unemployed retard burns through their month's welfare check in the first night?

I can appreciate the simplicity arguments for it vs our current welfare system, but they seem to ignore that many of the complications of the current welfare system came into being for a reason.

>>129468771
but isnt that... ah ferget it

>>129468862
they can already track what we are buying, just apply that to money and voila, everything fixed with no bureucrats

File: unprotected_honey.jpg (196KB, 1300x950px) Image search: [Google]

196KB, 1300x950px

>>129468774
What if your assumption is incorrect? You've seen how insane the leadership is in many European countries.

If you leave a huge jar of honey without a lid in a forest, do you think the animals and insects will leave it alone?

>>129468862
Right. UBI's biggest fans will be liquor store owners and drug dealers. This whole argument is retarded.

>>129469077
Contrary to what you read from /pol/, Europe is not the land of milk and honey. In the majority of European countries you need to actually work to be qualified to any kind of welfare from the government.

>>129469425
relative to everywhere else, it's a socialist utopia

Welfare already exists, and is enough to live on right now
so people that are against UBI, why dont people in a job right now just quit and become a neet?

>>129469604
welfare is conditional & many may not qualify, it's a hassle, and you are financially watched like a hawk while you're on it... it's not some easy key to a neet life

by definition, everyone qualifies for UBI and presumably it would have zero hassle and nobody watching how you spend it.. it is an easy key to a neet life

there's a huge difference, if i wanted to drop out of school / work right now and be a neet with welfare, i can't because i can't get welfare (i have no good reason to qualify for it).. but with UBI i could (not that i want to)

>>129469425
There are a hell of a lot of migrants who don't work who still seem to be mysteriously surviving, but that's beside the point.

We're talking about UBI, not welfare. UBI by definition does not require you to do work or anything else, it's unconditional.

>>129466232
Not true. If you worked 2+ years, you get 12 months arbeitslosengeld if you're fired. If you quit, you get 3 months allowance/time deducted, so 9 months.

I know because i went through this process last year, i had no clue before and only signed up for ALG because i was told it was "the law" to inform the Finanzamt when you lose/quit your job, which i found out later is probably not true, but i don't know because i'm a Bong who moved here and never went through it before.

>>129449427
Taxing use of robots

>>129467700
>he got rich by investing the money he earned from 2 years of wageslaving
Great story bro

>>129467298
>with no ambitions
Ambitions don't equal money. Someone might want to write a history book, create a great painting or be good at hunting. None of those things make money, but they are fun goals to have. More fun than working 9 to 5 and spending the money you earn on "entertainment"

>>129457140

100% Pure Unadulterated Autism.
Let the people without mental handicaps do the thinking here fella

>>129448665
How do I get rockets to colonize space then?
Do I get that all for free?

>>129471035
Did you miss the part about the loan and investments?

>rich
I wasn't rich in two years. I just didn't have to work to support myself after two years because my expenses were very minimal and capital gains held me afloat. All I did was shitpost and have cheap hobbies. I was beginning to approach decent wealth after like 6 years which basically just put me in the median salary range of income.
All you need is 140k with at least 8% minimum profit to make about 11000€ annually minus taxes.
If you can't scrap together even 140k in two years with loans and a job then you're not trying.
Keep your living expenses below 500€ for 2-4 years and don't buy vodka with every paycheck, that leaves enough cash to invest in more, which grows your income from capital gains exponentially every year. In four years you'll be at low tier wage slave levels of income from nothing but your investments.
And that's just the bare minimum.

Stop blowing your money on dumb shit and make use of the fact that you have no social life or expenses.

>>129473193

you invested in what ?

>>129462770
>You misunderstand this entire situation as anything other than two people choosing to enter an agreement for a specific end.
the value of the labor in this context only gains meaning from the context of the economy around them. a laborer and an employer couldn't determine proper cash recompense without referencing the current economic situation they're in, which is determined by the commodity they're producing and what it will be bought for. So this ultimately returns to the price the goods that will be produced will be purchased for, not what it takes to produce them.

>Did your landlord fuck you over and the government didn't do shit about it? Fuck I don't know man go shoot him. I don't make apologisms for exceptions to a consensual agreement.
australian guy isn't me

>>129472441
Why do we need to colonize Mars? Seems like a waste of money and resources to me.

>>129449354

Thank you.

>>129469425

>You need to work
>Muh 30 hour work weeks
>Muh government paid vacations

HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>129448665
i have a great, high paying job in which i build my country. people in my field of work die rather regularly

PLEASE give me basic income so i can just shit home and shit post all day instead of being productive and risking my life

>>129448665
>When will you realize that there's nothing wrong with Universal Basic Income?
When will YOU realize that nothing is free, libfag?

>>129473531
ETF's and Bitcoin. Also did some daytrading on stock market, but that was very minimal profit.
Right now the fastest way to gains is on altcoin trading but it's a very volatile market and could burst any week now.

>>129448665
>it's the thing that's going to take us through the incoming Automation age
Crack open a history book, moron.

Swather invented: "There won't be any more jobs!" Number of jobs increases.
Automatic loom invented: "There won't be any more jobs!" Number of jobs increases.
Computer invented: "There won't be any more jobs!" Number of jobs increases.

Get a fucking clue!

You guys are telling me you'd just stop working and improving just because you were given a shitty apartment and food? I mean sure there might be some leeches like there are now, but it'd be a net positive.

Because inflation and I don't want to pay even more taxes to feed shitskins and lazy leftards, I'm already giving half of my wages for that shit.
This thread is retarded, and I've spotted several posts from yuropoors that show they are litterally communists. Kill yourself faggots, THE MONEY I MAKE IS MINE AND MINE ALONE

>>129462770
>Who determines how much labor is worth in this system?
Networking & connections.

>>129473584
>the value of the labor in this context only gains meaning from the context of the economy around them
Isn't that true of all labor throughout history? When a carpenter agreed to build a house for someone the value of his labor and the value of the materials necessary to create the house were both factors that would be influenced by their local economy. This type of thing isn't quite as complicated when you've got Roman Gold being passed around but when you've got fiat currency it gets a little trickier.

>>129473793
Good goy, now go to bed there is more work for you tomorrow, Tommy.

>>129448665
Lol working to meet people. I totally wouldnt just use my gibs and go hang out places to meet people. I hate when this picture gets posted its so fucking stupid

>>129448665
There are people unironically believing that right guys make more than 0.1% of the population.