Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works

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1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Reverlation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 John 3
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Romans 4
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

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>>129370572

>>129370886
Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

>>129371373
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcDuHf_t9g

Is hitchens right about the west? Are we watching the darkness fall?

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>>129370572
Amen.

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Star Wars BTFO

>>129370886
Catholics BTFO

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Don't forget!

>>129373915
We all meet our makers when we die, Christians are prepared while the godless will have a lifetime of unrepentant sin separating them from God because they rejected Christ.

>>129370886
but muh works

>>129374710
Not even a single catholic troll to guffaw or quote book of James.

>>129374710
This verse kills the Cuckolick

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

>>129375148
It's funny when the quote James 2 without quoting Romans 4 or Galatians 3

Romans 4
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
>2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

>>129370572
James 2:24 faggot! Sola fide is BS

>>129375310
Then they try to quote their vatican books.
>>129375870
Congrats on being the first papist itt. Why dont you ever read the bible? Its legal to own now you know.

>>129375870
>Doesn't realize that means justified to man
Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

and >>129375310

please read the thread before posting

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Perfect

>>129370572
>hey everyone look at me I'm an intellectual christian

And why should all these quotes have any meaning to me? What qualifies them as being worth building one's life around?

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The story of Jesus as recorded in the gospels is about what happens when the Spirit of God appears on Earth, and is resisted by the worldly powers of organized religion and the state. Anytime the message of Christ becomes co-opted by religious doctrine or state power, it has already abandoned its roots, since at its core the Jesus story is about how those very powers will stop at nothing to subvert and destroy the Christ. Though of course they can never succeed - to those with eyes to see and ears to hear, the King remains enthroned.

Christ shows us that self-giving sacrificial love is the true power in the universe, not the top-down tyrannical brute strength of Caesar. Christ's earliest followers proclaimed "Jesus is Lord!", rather than "Caesar is Lord!" which regions conquered by the empire were required to say. The implied subversive question - who is making a better Kingdom? Caesar who puts people on crosses, or Christ who bears the cross in love for all? Caesar who dominates and kills all who oppose with brute strength, or God who raised Christ from the dead?

Why is self-giving sacrifice the ultimate power? Picture water. In some senses, the most submissive substance imaginable. It will flow through your fingers, fit any container you put it in. Yet nothing can compete with it for domination of the planet - it covers 70% of Earth's surface. It uses its power not to dominate like a tyrant, but to quietly nourish each and every thing that lives. This is built into Creation as a prefiguration of Christ. The blood of Christ is spiritual water, and those who drink of it will never thirst again.

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>>129370572

>>129376289
I'm using it against people that believe in work salvation not atheists

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>seth the god of chaos aka kek
>what is the thing that bring chaos? TRUTH
>seth spoke the truth and brought chaos to the jews
>they killed jesus he gave up on resisting he was a pussy
>only seth was based and willing to fight
>(((they))) made him the bad guy obviously cause he was anti establishment
>>this is all kinda true hidden in the allegories
>actually satan was a cool dude
>he speaked against the jewish ways
>thats why they turned his name into evil
>he tried to convince christ of the truth
>jesus was a pussy
>let himselft get fucked by romans
>guess who went during the night inside a roman camp like a boss and removed christ from the cross
>your old buddy seth
>who is now the bad guy
>actually the truth the masons follow and the hermetic catholicism kept hidden from us
>they want you to be the pussy jesus that gives the other cheek
>instead of seth the one with the logos that brings chaos in truth
>check jordan peterson vids

>>129376083
PAPIST? PAPIST? YOU JUST INSULTED ME BRO! Cuckolicism is BS! But your protestantism is not better. Read Matthew 24 and you will realise, that your "messiah" (church) is fake and only 1 is true but not catholicism

>>129376289
>>129376280

Go be a hell bound atheist elsewhere.

>>129376169
So you saying that all the things that Disciples of Jesus invented and made are NOT necessary just only because your pastor interpreted in the way he liked?

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The Lutheran Church is the one true apostolic holy chuch of God.

>>129376889
This guy took several books from bible because they contradicted his views. Great religion bro, fuck scripture the way you want!

>>129376717
How can you interpret it any other way?

>>129376326
I liked the water analogy. Just imagine a world like this of 100% christians, helping and loving one another in all things to serve the Lord.

>>129370572
>i suffer a woman NOT to teach
Catholicucks out.

Jesus Christ in.

>>129377048
>muh apocrypha

>>129376889
Apostolic means that the authority from the apostles has been passed down to now. You're Apostolic succession was never there since the beginning of your disgusting protestant movement. All your sacraments are invalid except for baptism and marriage and without sanctifying grace most of you are all going to be burning in hell

Acts 8:37

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>>129375159
“In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head--that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]--of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church.”
-St. Optatus, “The Schism of the Donatists,” c. 367 A.D.

“They (the Novatian heretics) have not the succession of Peter, who hold not the chair of Peter, which they rend by wicked schism; and this, too, they do, wickedly denying that sins can be forgiven (by the sacrament of confession) even in the Church, whereas it was said to Peter: 'I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth, shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven.'"
-St. Ambrose of Milan, “On Penance,” 388 A.D.

OK LETS Go with if Sola Fide is true

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>>129374572
>m-my jewish god is gonna kick y-your ass when we're both dead!
Cuckstianity at its finest

Greatly, it would seem, have you been moved by the lesson from the Apostle, having heard read to-day, Because the Law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression. And therefore you have thought fit to ask why the Law was promulgated, if it profited nothing, nay rather, by working wrath and bringing in transgression, was injurious....Now the world becomes guilty before God by the Law, in that all are made amenable to its prescripts, but no man is justified by its works. And since by the Law comes the knowledge of sin, but not the remission of guilt, the Law, which has made all sinners, would seem to have been injurious.....But when the Lord Jesus came, He forgave all men that sin which none could escape, and blotted out the handwriting against us by the shedding of His own Blood. This then is the Apostle's meaning; sin abounded by the Law, but grace abounded by Jesus; for after that the whole world became guilty, He took away the sin of the whole world, as John bore witness, saying: Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Wherefore let no man glory in works, for by his works no man shall be justified, for he that is just hath a free gift, for he is justified by the Bath. It is faith then which delivers by the blood of Christ, for Blessed is the man to whom sin is remitted, and, pardon granted.

Farewell, my son; love me, for I also love you

St. Ambrose letter 76


[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church?.

-Saint Ambrose


Saint Ambrose and Gregory said to put the church UNDER THE LAW to teach faith. So if you do believe in Sola Fide that doesn't mean you shouldnt be catholic since this man and John of Chrysostom and Pope Clement I were all Roman Catholics and had sola fide

>>129377314
What an argument, I've changed my mind! TY

>>129377498
>Communists especially ripped apart Catholic Priests for teaching against them

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>>129377644
cont.
>>129377432

>>129377432
Is this in the bible? Or just the part of peter being the rock?

Ill need 2 or 3 (biblical) witnesses

>peter used the keys of heaven when he committed the first baptism after christ ascended, and so the church (rock) was established

"What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel 6 [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).

Paul, Faith, Works, Obedience,
Righteousness, and Salvation
By: Matt1618

This page will be a foundational/index page for a long examination of Paul’s view of salvation and the necessity of not only Faith, but grace-empowered works and obedience to not only be a fruit of salvation, but a cause of salvation. I will give those passages which show the necessity of works, obedience, inherent righteousness, endurance, etc. At the same time I and the Catholic Church acknowledge that Paul does not teach that we earn salvation. I will examine each of Paul’s letters (with the exception of Philemon, which does not address the issue of salvation) to show the relation of works, obedience, endurance and salvation. I will also look at the issue of imputation vs. infused righteousness. When I approach this topic, I realize that there are varying Protestant views on these issues, so I do not claim that all those who believe in Sola Fide (Faith Alone) express the view that I am opposing here. Click on the following, and you will see an examination of some Biblical passages from each of the letters of Paul on these issues. Below that, I will give an introduction to two views (Catholic and Calvinist) on the relation of works, obedience, and righteousness to salvation.

Introduction

>>129377772
So you're saying that the bible is wrong? If it's not wrong then Peter did indeed recieve this authority

>>129377887
Introduction

Many say that Paul is the preeminent teacher on justification. He no doubt is a preeminent teacher on the issue. Some Protestants who believe in ‘Faith Alone’, where through faith one appropriates Christ’s righteousness to ones account, will often avoid speaking of James, Jesus, Peter, and others on the issue. For an examination of Jesus teaching on salvation, click here. For an examination of James on salvation Click here. It is as if, when Jesus was asked about salvation, he should have said, “Well, the truth about salvation will not really be known until the apostle Paul starts to write in 20-30 years, check with him.” While these Protestants do not blatantly ignore their (Jesus, Peter, James, etc) teachings, they will relegate their authority to second class status because of what they call Paul’s superior authority on salvation. For example, James White, in his book, The Roman Catholic Controversy, Bethany House Publishers, 1996, p. 147 writes: "We must allow the primary expositor of this issue (justification), in this case, the apostle Paul, to speak first; his epistles to the Romans and the Galatians must define the issues, for it is in them that we have direct discussions exactly how justification takes place. Once we have consulted these sources, we can then move on to garner other elements of the biblical revelation that are found in tangential ways elsewhere. "

>>129377931
We see White and other Protestants apologists relegate teachers such as Jesus, James, John, Peter to mere tangencies, because of the supposed clear teaching of Paul, especially in Romans and Galatians. This I find contrary to Peter's analysis of Paul's writings on the issue, 2 Peter 3:15-16: 15 "And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." Note that the issue that Peter says that is hard to understand is salvation in Paul's writings. I do find that James (Jm 2:14-26) and Jesus (Mt. 19:16-17, Jn 5:24, 28-29, Mt. 25:31-46, etc.) to be clearer on the issue of salvation. That said, as Paul is a significant writer on the issue, as a Bible Christian, it is important that we do examine his view on the issue.

>>129377718
>two groups of people disliked each other, so you HAVE to like one of them
the world isn't black and white, unlike members of your faith (Most Christians will be black in the coming years)

>>129377959

Protestants from a so-called Reformed perspective will say that by ‘Faith alone’ one appropriates, imputes God’s righteousness to one’s account, and this is the sole grounds of one’s justification. Living the life of faith is only the fruit of this justification, and is even necessary to show that one is indeed saved, but it is never any of the grounds of one’s justification. Works, inherent, infused righteousness, and obedience is relegated to mere fruits of one’s justification, and evidence of one being justified. Romans and Galatians are indeed the most referred to letters of Paul by those who argue that an inherent righteousness, works, and obedience, are never any of the grounds of one’s justification. I do not believe that we should relegate Jesus’ teachings on salvation to second class status, but in this examination of Paul, I indeed will examine Paul's view on salvation, holiness, obedience, endurance and works, starting with Romans and Galatians, but also in other letters as well. I will show that Paul’s letters do indeed confirm the Catholic view of salvation. I intend in this extended piece to take the challenge of giving a fairly comprehensive look at Paul, works, fruits, righteousness, and justification.

I have already written on what Paul means when he denies the efficaciousness of works of the law, in these pieces here: Romans 4:4-8: Proof for Justification by Faith Alone? and Romans 4, David and Abraham - One Time Imputation Or Process?, Galatians 3:10-14, Faith, Works, and Works of the Law, and Dialogue With an Ex-Catholic, Now Protestant Author on Justification

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Eastern Orthodox Church FTW.

>>129378009


The Catholic view is that we are saved by grace alone, and that we do not earn one’s justification. The Catholic view is that works of the law do not save. We do not put God into a position of owing us anything, let alone salvation. Session six, canon 1 of the Council of Trent spells this out:

"If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

The law, in and of itself, does not save anyone. When Paul speaks of works of the law that do not save, the Catholic affirms that (per Gal. 3:10, Gal. 2:16, Rom. 3:20, 28) as well. The Catholic view is that God justifies us exclusively by his grace. We are put into a relationship with him, which is based on sonship, grace, and mercy. The rigid requirements of the law were put to death by Christ on the cross, per Col. 2:16. However, once within the realm of grace, obedience is still necessary to maintain salvation. The fact that although one is not under the works of the law (Gal. 3:10, Rom. 3:28) there is still a law of the Spirit and Christ (Rom. 8:2, Gal. 6:2). We are released from the rigid requirements of the law (See Romans 7:6, Col. 2:13-14, Eph. 2:15) but now we serve in the new law of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6, Rom. 8:2).

It does not mean that the law is done away with. God must circumcise our hearts (Rom. 2:27) and we must approach him humbly and recognize our total dependence on him. Paul warns that if one lives in the life of the flesh (even if one is an adopted child) he will not inherit the kingdom of heaven (Gal. 5:19-21). If one manifests the fruit of the Spirit one indeed will inherit this kingdom (Gal. 5:22-23). This can be done only through the power of the Spirit (Gal. 5:16, 24). Although one can not work to earn salvation, once inside God's grace, one must bear fruit in his life to get the end of salvation. If one sows instead disobedience, one's end is eternal damnation (Gal. 6:7-9). Thus, once one is justified by God, the Catholic view is that grace empowered obedience is necessary to maintain one’s state of justification. Works , obedience and infused righteousness, is not only a necessary fruit of one’s justification, but is also a cause of it.

The Council of Trent spells out the Catholic view of the various causes of ones' justification:
CHAPTER VII IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30](Tit. 3:7) The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31](1 Cor. 6:11) gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32](Eph 1:13 f.) the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33](Rom. 5:10) for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] (Eph. 2:4)merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36](Eph. 4:23) and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37](1 Cor. 6:11) and according to each one's disposition and cooperation.

>>129378109
What Proddies don't want to see

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>>129378114
Latin Massacre

Thus, the Catholic view, as seen, has as its ultimate cause the glory of God and Christ, and his death on the cross merited for us justification. The instrumental cause is baptism, infused righteousness, and cooperation with God’s grace as necessary to achieve final justification. Infused righteousness is an important aspect of the Catholic view of justification. It means the Holy Spirit continually renews us, and we are ontologically transformed into Christ's image. This righteousness that becomes a part of the person, becomes a part of the grounds of our justification before God.

The Protestant/Calvinist view is that the instrumental cause is faith alone. The Calvinist view is that justification may have those effects (good works, obedience), but works even done in the state of grace, and one’s infused righteousness can never be any of the grounds of one’s justification. James Buchanan, in his book: The Doctrine of Justification, The Banner of Truth Trust, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, 1867, Reprint 1997, p. 230, writes:

>>129378043
>has that kike that makes fun of Christian's on his shirt

What a fucking embarrassment

>>129378214

"Since justification is the opposite of condemnation , it can only be, like the latter, a forensic and judicial term; and the one can not be signified to sanctify or to make one righteousness inherently." Buchanan continues: “A proof of the forensic or judicial sense of the term ‘Justification’ is supplied by those equivalent expressions, which are sometimes substituted for it, and which serve to explain it. If these expressions cannot imply infusion of righteousness, but denote merely either the forgiveness of sin, or the acceptance of the sinner, they show that Justification denotes a change in his judicial relation to God, and not a change in his moral or spiritual character. It is expressly described as the ‘imputation of righteousness’ ‘Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. .; . ..””Then he quotes Rom. 4:3, 6-8, Buchanan, The Doctrine of Justification, 231. For an examination of Romans 4, see the following urls: Romans 4:4-8: Proof for Justification by Faith Alone?...by Matt1618, and Romans 4, David and Abraham - One Time Imputation Or Process?...by Matt1618

Catholics do agree that the meritorious cause of justification is Christ’s atoning sacrifice and his mediatorial work, but the Calvinist view is that the ground of justification, is only Christ’s perfect righteousness imputed to the person’s account. (Buchanan, The Doctrine of Justification, p. 315. Buchanan writes “It is called, pre-eminently and emphatically, ‘The righteousness of God.’ By this name it is distinguished from the righteousness of man, and even contrasted with it, as a ground of Justification. It is brought in as a divine righteousness, only when all human righteousness has been shut out....The two righteousness are not only distinct, but different; but directly opposed, and mutually exclusive, considered as grounds of Justification."

With this summary of the positions in their own words, I will show that what Paul means by faith, grace empowered, obedience, and works, throughout his letters, is not merely evidence of one’s justification, but constitute an instrumental cause of it. As mentioned earlier, I have encountered some of the favorite passages of the Protestants who attempt to prove justification by faith alone at not only the ones mention on Romans 4, but also: Galatians 3:10-14, Faith, Works, and Works of the Law, and Dialogue With an Ex-Catholic, Now Protestant Author on Justification It is not the purpose of this examination to rehash the arguments already given in these prior pieces. In this examination, I want to look only at Paul’s letters, and especially the favorite ones that are used by believers in in Sola Fide (such as Romans and Galatians), and show that grace empowered works, pursuit of holiness, and endurance(which of course can only be done when in God’s grace) are not merely an effect, but a cause of one’s justification. In this endeavor, I hope to prove that for Paul, obedience is not just a nice side effect to prove one is justified in order to get more rewards in heaven, but when in a state of grace, a cause of justification.

>>129377644
>>129377432
>he thinks i care what man says

Well lets see what Christ said about salvation

John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

efinition of Faith

Before I go into the Scriptures, I must spell out one aspect of the definition of faith. There are many aspects of faith that I do not intend to go into. The aspect that I want to concentrate on, is does faith, in the way that Paul uses the term, include obedience? Is faith not only trust in Christ and belief in him, but, does Paul’s use of the term incorporate obedience? This issue is central, because if faith alone, includes the aspect of obedience to God and the necessity of ongoing faithfulness to God’s commands, that is different from the view of Sola Fide, Protestant apologists espouse, as we have seen. The Protestant, Sola Fide view, includes the idea that by Faith one accepts Christ’s death on the cross as the means to incorporate Christ’s righteousness to one’s account. After writing that salvation is not done or maintained by one’s obedience, James White writes: “Sola Fide - faith alone, that is, saving faith, resting solely in the perfection of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ in my stead. That is my hope. That is the Good News. Not justification by baptism, then rejustification after committing a mortal sin...No, justification is by faith alone, so that it can be by grace alone. That is the Gospel.” James White, Roman Catholic Controversy, p. 151.

Buchanan also emphasizes that Justification ‘by grace’ is identified in Scripture, with Justification ‘by faith,’ and opposed to Justification ‘by works.’ (Proposition XXII), Buchanan, Justification, p. 343.

The Catholic view is that justification and faith, per the Catechism:

1990. "Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. "

>>129378301
>>129378305

1991. "Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or 'justice') here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us."

1992. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. "

>>129378367

1993. "Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.[Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.] "

The faith that appropriates justification sees transformation, obedience, holiness and faith, according to the Catholic view as a means of one’s justification, not merely a necessary effect of one’s justification, as the Protestant view holds. The Protestant/Calvinist will not deny that one will be sanctified on an ongoing basis, and man will cooperate with God, but will deny that this obedience is any of the grounds of their justification.

Definition of Faith

I will here highlight from the Protestant Vine’s Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words the definition of ‘faith.’

“The word pistis (4102), faith.
The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom. 3:25; 1 Cor. 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor. 1:24; Gal. 3:23; Phil. 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess. 3:2; 2 Thess. 1:3; 3:2; (b) trustworthiness, e.g., Matt. 23:23; Rom. 3:3 “the faithfulness of God”; Gal. 5:22 (“faithfulness”); Tit. 2:10, “fidelity” (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the “faith,” Acts 6:7; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:25 [contrast 3:23, under (a)]; 6:10;; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thess. 3:10; Jude 3, 20 (and perhaps 2 Thes. 3:2); (d) a ground for “faith’, an assurance; Acts 17:31 (not as ; (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted “faith,” 1 Tim. 5:12.

The main elements in “faith” in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from “faith” in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgment of God’s revelation or truth, e.g. 2 Thess. 2:11-12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good “faith” without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham’s “faith” was not God’s promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his “faith”: rested on God Himself,” Rom. 4:1`7, 20-21.” Vine’s Complete Expository of Old and New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville. Atlanta. London. Vancouver, 1985, p. 222.

>>129377888
Authority which was also granted to the rest of the christians upon their (adult) baptism

>whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose etc.
This is power (and more) granted to all christians not just peter or the pope/priests, later churches later had their own leaders, in accordance with what paul wrote.

It is interesting to note, in this definition that Vine cited, in part d, is fidelity as part of what faith is. Faith, according to Vine, includes fidelity to this pledge of faith. It is possible, according to Paul, in the passage cited by Vines, to lose one’s faith, and can lead to condemnation. The passage quoted, 1 Tim. 5:12 , says, “and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge.”

The second paragraph, which highlights what faith does, includes conduct inspired by a person’s belief in God. Faith according to Paul, includes the actions that are inspired by this belief in God (as Vine’s dictionary uses 2 Cor. 5:7 as an example). The definition that Paul uses of faith includes one acting upon this belief, and the salvific efficacy is thus conditional to not violating this pledge made to God. Not one of the definitions of faith included a definition, coming from the Bible, which says faith reflects White’s view that it is “resting solely in the perfection of the work of the Lord Jesus Christ in my stead. That is my hope.”

Father William Most notes that the Protestant’s Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, Supplement p.333, gives this explanation of Paul’s meaning of faith: “Paul uses pistis to mean, above all, belief in the Christ kerygma [preaching], knowledge, obedience, trust in the Lord Jesus. It comes by hearing with faith the gospel message. . . . by responding with a confession about Christ . . . and by the ‘obedience of faith’ . . . ‘the obedience which faith is’.

>>129378009
there is a small mistake, it's not catholic view of salvation, but Orthodox. First there was only 1 christianity, but from 4th century "popes" decided to increase their power, become "infallible", which is more than just a herecy, and some disgusting dogmas like Filioque. Orhodoxy however nearly never changed and stays the way christianity was invented in 1st century.

>>129378463

On the Catholic side, Father William Most views faith as defined by Paul as “a total adherence of a person to God, so that if God speaks a truth, we assent in our mind (1 Thess. 2:13), if He makes a promise, we are confident in it (Rom. 4:3), if He gives a command, we obey (Rom. 1:5), all to be done in love (Gal. 5:6). At times, e.g., Rom. 1:5, Paul speaks of the “obedience of faith” - the obedience that faith is.’ (Rev. William Most, The Thought of St. Paul: A Commentary on the Pauline Epistles, Christendom Press, Front Royal, VA, 1994, p. 286.

We see in the definitions of faith, from Catholics and Protestants alike the role obedience plays. Nowhere did anyone define this obedience as merely a ‘fruit’ of faith, but a part of that faith. Also, nowhere did anyone say that one part of faith (such as believing in God’s promises) is the instrumental means of salvation, while the aspect of obedience is a separate part of that faith. Apparently, at least according to those who define the term faith see obedience as necessary to appropriate that salvation, not a mere after effect.

Now we will examine whether the obedient aspect of faith is a necessary aspect to one’s justification. Many on the Sola Fide side will argue that obedience is a necessary fruit, that will lead to more rewards in heaven., but the aspect of faith that appropriates one’s justification does not include this obedience. Is infusion of sanctifying grace a grounds for justification or a mere fruit?

The following is an examination of Paul's first letter to see who is correct:

>>129378189
What a shit image.

>all apologetics
>ignoring the fucking Albigensian Crusade

>>129378482
you are a moron

I'm really starting to think shills are starting these arguments about which denomination is right. If you have the Holy Spirit and know Christ is Lord, then you shouldn't be fighting over such pettiness. The way you people lash out at other Christians proves you are full of hate

>>129378499
And there we go

OP BTFO with Biblical NT scholarship

>>129376889
Sin Boldly

Romans 4 - Justification,
Abraham and David -
Imputation or Process?
By Matt1618


In this examination we will look at the implications of Paul's writing in Romans 4 on the justification of the life of Abraham and David. Romans 4 is often used as the 'proof-text' against the Catholic view of works and salvation. It is used to show that works can never be any of the grounds of one justification. Also, it is used to prove that justification is a one time imputation, not a process, as Catholicism holds. Before we dive into Abraham and David and whether or not they show that justification is a one time imputation or a process, we need to look at a little background.

>>129378617
At least he brought truth and wanted people to read the Bible

>>129378548
why exactly can you plz bring ACTUAL arguments and not FEELINGS?

>>129378676

RC Sproul, in the book, Faith Alone writes, "Paul labors the point that Abraham was not justified by works: Paul declares that Abraham was justified before he performed works. He was justified as soon as he had faith (in Gen. 15)"... In alluding to James, Sproul writes "James was clearly aware that Abraham had already been reckoned righteous by God in Gen. 15 (p. 166)". James White sees Rom. 4:1-8 as proof that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the Christian by faith, and, on the basis of Roman 4:1-8, uses it to oppose the Catholic teaching Roman Catholic Controversy, p. 137. Abraham is justified first in Genesis 15:6. James Buchanan uses Romans 4 as a way of setting grace against any type of works, as having any part of the grounds of justification, James Buchanan, The Doctrine of Justification, p. 316. Buchanan uses it to affirm that the righteousness of Christ is based by imputation, not by infusion, p. 323. Buchanan goes out of his way to "prove' that Abraham was first justified in Genesis 15:6. Buchanan in battling James 2 where it says that Abraham was justified by works, says that"Abraham was a believer, and as such, a justified sinner, many years before Isaac was born: and the first notice of his justification makes mention only of God's promise, and of Abraham's faith; for 'he believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness (Gen. 15:6)." (Buchanan, p. 244). For a closer examination of James 2:14-16, click here. Besides ignoring what James really says, but that is another issue, these authors show that it is essential to the Protestant/Calvinist position, to say that Abraham is first justified in Genesis 15:6.

Central to this passage is Paul's use of the lives of Abraham and David. We must assume that since Scripture is consistent with Scripture, and Paul knew the Old Testament well, that his use of Abraham and David as models of how we are justified, show us indeed how we are to be justified.

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>>129378301
It matters since he taught SAINT AUGUSTINE and he told the Roman Emperors what to do. He was one of the most godly men and wisest men to ever live. And if he thought a man could hold to sola fide and thought that being a schisimatic was HERESY then you're in godamned trouble. You can hold to both, if you really want to, there are saints that held to it that are notable men.

That's not to mention that Pope Clement I WAS TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLE PAUL AND WAS A ROMAN CATHOLIC

>>129378509
Albigensians wer gnostics.
STAKE

>>129378689
loser moron

>>129378709
Let us examine the text itself of Romans 4:

2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 4 Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. 5 And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. 6So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."

For those ill-informed on what Catholicism teaches on grace and works, Paul seems to speak directly against the Catholic view. Even for those with the correct Catholic view, Paul at first glance seems to speak against works of any kind as being the grounds of one's justification. However, this is only a superficial look at the text. Before we dive into Paul's use of Abraham and David in Romans 4, a few points must be considered on Paul's negative usage of the word works in relation to justification: What is the kind of works that is critiqued? Paul shows us the following points:

>>129378600
>He thinks I'm going to read all of that when it's clear sola fide is right by literally the most famous Bible verse(John 3:16)

>>129378780

A) Paul says that works, in and of itself, does not justify oneself before God. We don't earn salvation. This actually perfectly fits the Council of Trent, where it says that to hold that one's works justify oneself before God, anathematizes himself from the Catholic Church. Canon 1. "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

B) The works that don't justify are those that apart from God's grace. Abraham did not boast about how good he was. The boasting aspect of the "works of the law" is what Paul condemns in other passages (Rom. 2:17, 23; 3:27; 4:2; Eph. 2:9). For a detailed look at the meaning of works of the law please click on Galatians 3:10-14, Faith, Works, and Works of the Law This is similar to Jesus critique of the Pharisees. Anyone who attempts to make himself right with God by his own works is one who is "puffed up", one who "boasts" of his own goodness and is filled with his own self-importance and significance (cf., Luke 16:15; 18:9). This is what Paul is contending against in this passage.

The only kind of works that we have that are any good, is the kind that comes exclusively from God's grace. 'It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me (Gal. 2:20). Those that are done with a boastful attitude do not suffice before God. Augustine sees Paul condemning those "because they were working it out as it were by themselves, not believing that it is God who works within them... Then are we still in doubt what are those works of the law by which a man is not justified, if he believes them to be his own works, as it were, without the help and gift of God, which is by the faith of Jesus Christ?" (Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter, ch. 50, Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, p. 105).

>>129378688
By taking out books from the Bible, adding some "necessary lies" and eradicating 5/7 mysteries of church.

"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."

>>129378781
>I hate the truth

>>129378817
Everything that we do right is exclusively from God, and thus we do not want to boast in anything but what God does for us. As Augustine (Letters 194:5:19 [A.D. 412]).succinctly writes: "What merit, then, does a man have before grace, by which he might receive grace, when our every good merit is produced in us only by grace and when God, crowning our merits, crowns nothing else but his own gifts to us?"

c) Notice the category of works in Romans 4:4 which Paul specifically says will not justify. That where one earns a wage. 'Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.' Specifically note that the category which Paul goes on to say that does not justify is where thus, one puts God in a employee- employer relationship. As though one just works, and God owes him something. Paul categorically condemns this. Salvation is not our due: It must be noted, though, that Paul specifically does use the term wages in a positive sense, in Galatians 6:8-9, where it says the wages of faithful good works is eternal life (Gal. 6:8-9). However, the context in Galatians, as in Romans, speak of good works done in God's grace, in the context of a Father-Son relationship (Rom. 8:14-17, Gal. 4:4-7). Those are not wages in a strict sense. Those are instances where God rewards faithfulness. However, it was not that we obligate God. He rewards based on him looking through his eyes of grace, not because he owes us. In Romans 4 on the other hand Paul specifically contrasts the concept of wage, as an obgligation, or due, to gift, in the sense that we do not have the right to tell God "You owe us salvation.".

>>129378738
Losing argument? Go on, continue calling me some "mean" words, cuz you have low IQ.

>>129376471
orthodoxy are papists too, just with beards. And Matthew24 doesnt say what you think it does.

Why dont catholics and orthodoxy read the bible?

>>129378906
The Catholic Church likewise condemns and does not tolerate the idea that one earns salvation as though God owes us. Whatever we have, is truly a gift from God. God is not a debtor. Paul and the Catholic Church condemns in Romans 4:2-4 the idea of a employee-employer relationship where one earns salvation as though God must fork over salvation because of our works. However, we are in a Father-Son relationship (Gal. 4:4-7, Rom. 8:14-17, Heb. 12:5-12). It is not our due. It is exclusively God's grace and beneficence that justifies us before God. The Catholic Church and Paul recognize this. The only way that we can be justified before God is when he looks at us through the eyes of grace, and not law. If he looks at us through the eyes of law, we will be condemned. If we are in a Father-Son relationship, he looks at us through grace. When our works are looked through God's eyes of grace, God does reward because of his beneficence. This will help to make sense of our examination of Romans 4 and is born out by Paul's examples of Abraham and David.

>>129378716
>just ignore the sectarian violence that Christianity brought to Europe
>Islam is the true threat
Fuck you

>>129378957
protestantism contradict the bible and early christian

>>129378971

This quick look at Romans 4 gives us the background to now look at how Paul's use of Abraham and David do suffice for justification. The Protestant view (more specifically the Calvinist/Baptist view) is that Paul in Romans 4 here shows us, through the examples of David and Abraham is here is where they were justified, as we have noted from prominent Reformed/Protestant authors.. Paul refers us to Abraham first, as the model of how we are justified. The Calvinist view is of a one time imputation of righteousness as the sole grounds of righteousness. Christ's righteousness is imputed to our account, and faith alone is the sole means of appropriating that righteousness. Works will necessarily follow, but they are only the fruit, and never the grounds of one's justification. For this view, Genesis 15 is where the one time imputation occurs. Anytime before Genesis 15 Abraham is not justified, and anytime after (such as Gen. 22 and his offering of Isaac) is just the fruit of his already being justified, not any of the grounds itself of his justification. Catholics on the contrary say that Genesis 15 is a continuation of Abraham's process. This justification is an ongoing process that started at least in Genesis 12, and continues to the end of his life. The Catholic views justification as an ongoing process contingent upon Abraham's obedience.

>>129378716
Let's see what Paul wrote

>Galatians
2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
5:4-5
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Huh will you look at that sola fide

>>129379058

As the Protestant view is that here in Genesis 15 is when Abraham became a believer, and was justified, we must examine Genesis 12 to 15 to see if indeed up until that point, Abraham was an unregenerate man, an unbeliever, as the Calvinist view admittedly calls for:

A) Genesis 12 through 14 - God makes the call to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3. An unbeliever would not respond positively. What does Abraham do? He departs as the Lord had said, took all his possessions to the land of Canaan. He leaves house and home to who knows where, just at the Lord's bidding , and are we supposed to believe that he is a pagan? Abraham next builds an altar dedicated to the Lord (12:7). Abram calls on the name of the Lord (13:4). After separating himself from Lot Abraham is reminded by God of his promise (13:14-17) and tells him what land to go to. In response, the supposed unbelieving Abram moved his tent, and built an altar there to the Lord (13:18). Next Abram rescues his brother Lot. Melchizedek king of Salem then blesses Abram and said (14:19) "Blessed be Abram of God most high, Possessor heaven and earth;.." Thus, God is already Abram's God. Abram responds by proclaiming that he had lifted his hand to the Lord, God most high, the Possessor of heaven and earth (14:22). Any honest reader will see that Abram was already a believer in Genesis 12 through 14. Paul knows well this background to Genesis 15. Any attempt to say that Paul was saying that Abraham was an unregenerate pagan would make Paul make folly of Scripture. As an inspired writer he could not do such a thing. Abram was a man of faith so in love with God that he did marvelous things that most believers, including me would pale into comparison. If he was not justified then, who in the world would ever be justified? The view that does not acknowledge that Abraham is justified in Genesis 12, makes justification by 'faith alone' harder than justification by works!!!

>>129378851
>I hate the word of God
Dude WTF

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>>129370572

>>129379085
This dealt with
>>129377808
>>129377887
>>129377931
>>129377959
>>129378009
>>129378044
>>129378082
>>129378109
>>129378214
>>129378245
>>129378274
>>129378305
>>129378367
>>129378414
>>129378444
>>129378463
>>129378499

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>>129379204

>>129379155
>>129379219

>>129379155
I'm 99% sure he's an atheist shill trying to ruin Christian threads.

>>129379096

B) Hebrews confirms that Abraham already was a believer years before Genesis 15. Some may say, well, here Paul is not here talking of the faith that justifies. (Much of tradition holds that Paul is the author of Hebrews, and though authorship is in dispute, I will designate Paul as author). However, Hebrews 11:8 reads "By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going." Paul specifically refers us here to Genesis 12, some 25 years before Genesis 15. What kind of faith does he have, where he does not even know where he was going, yet goes at God's bidding, if this is not saving faith? Paul in chapter 11 is not speaking of a pagan faith of unregenerates here. In fact, the surrounding context of Hebrews shows us what kind of faith pleases God. In Hebrews 11:6, just two verses prior to the reference to his mention of Abram he writes: "And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." Notice the kind of faith that Paul commends. In the surrounding context Paul speaks of men of faith (and thus justified as Abel, Enoch and Noah) who all did specific acts that pleased God. These acts were intrinsic to their justification before God. In fact, we have an example of Abel offering sacrifice to God where he was 'deemed righteous,' (Heb. 11:4, language similarly used by Paul in Romans 4). All the acts shown were righteous deeds that God rewarded. In not one of the cases in all of Hebrews 11 were any of the OT saints deemed as unbelievers. Paul is lauding the faith of believers. Yet for the Calvinist, we are supposed to believe that in Abraham, Paul is lauding the faith of an unbeliever, as according to his view of Romans 4, Abraham is only justified in Genesis 15:6. Paul in Hebrews 11 is speaking of faith that pleases God, and is a rewarder of those who seek him.

>>129379301
>assmad proddie

>>129379312
Yet for the Calvinist, we are supposed to believe that in Abraham, Paul is lauding the faith of an unbeliever, as according to his view of Romans 4, Abraham is only justified in Genesis 15:6. Paul in Hebrews 11 is speaking of faith that pleases God, and is a rewarder of those who seek him. Exactly in that context he puts Abraham right in the center. Notice, BTW, that Abraham is thus approaching God through grace, and faithfulness. God will reward meritoriously, according to Paul those who approach God via grace. That is exactly the Catholic view. Paul in Romans 4 can only be consistent with what he wrote in Hebrews 11. Paul knows very well that Abraham was already justified back in Genesis 12. Abraham did not approach God through law, where even one violation would condemn him.

To confirm even more that we know that Abram is justified in Genesis 12, we see in Heb. 11:8 it is written that Abraham "obeyed and went…" What does obedience bring to Paul? Hebrews 5:9 explains: "and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him." (also see Rom. 6:16) We thus see Abraham already justified years before Genesis 15. Paul here in Hebrews 11 shows what any honest reading of Genesis 12 through 14 shows, a justified man performing marvelous acts of faith in God. To say that Abraham was not justified during this time makes a mockery of Scripture, in order to desperately maintain a one time imputation theory.

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>>129379014
>fuck you
>muh innocent GOYIM
BURN THE HERETIC

>>129379234
WRONG racemixing is banned in Leviticus 20:15-16 and to prove that he does refer to non whites refer to Jonah 3:8

>>129379403

c) Paul declares Abraham as accounted Righteous (Rom. 4:3, Gen. 15:6). For this to help the Protestant, Abraham should have believed in a forensic imputation of an alien righteousness. Is that what happened in Genesis 15:6? Abraham, through God's grace believes that God will provide a child for Abraham. This is a profound act of faith, indeed, but absolutely nothing in regards to merely trusting God as Savior for an alien righteousness being charged to one's account. Instead, it is God rewarding an act of faith done in God's grace. It is not something that God owes, but something that he does, as an act of God's mercy.

Romans 4:3, quotes Genesis 15:6 when it says: "For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"

There is one vital Old Testament passage that uses the exact same language of Paul in relation to justification before God. It is about Phinehas, Psalm 106:29-31. There was abundant sexual sin and idolatry rampant. Phinehas did something to stop that:

>>129370572
>buying into middle eastern religions

fucking retarded

>>129379219
>says
>Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Well clearly he didn't mean that

also you can know if you're saved
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

>>129379427

29 they provoked the LORD to anger with their doings, and a plague broke out among them. 30 Then Phinehas stood up and interposed, and the plague was stayed. 31 And that has been reckoned to him as righteousness from generation to generation for ever. "Then Phinehas stood up and interposed, and the plague was stayed, and that has been reckoned to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever." Reckoned to him as righteousness, the exact language that Paul uses in Romans 4:3. Is this an external imputation? No! This shows that Phinehas was a righteous man who did a righteous action, (actually killing fornicators, cf. Num. 25:25-30).. As a result of this action, God reckoned him as righteous and stopped the plague. He recognized a righteous action by a righteous man who was already justified. Exactly the same as Abraham. There is no hint of a merely external righteousness getting imputed to Phinehas' account.

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>>129379234

>>129379468
>ignores argument

>>129379301
He does this every single fucking thread

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>>129379488

>>129379470

Why do Protestant exegetes ignore the only exactly parallel passage to Gen. 15:6 and Rom. 4:3? Because it destroys their argument. In fact Psalm 106:31 so much destroys the Protestant position on Rom. 4 and Genesis 15 that John Murray writes: "If Paul had appealed to Psalm 106:31 in the matter of justification, the justification of the ungodly, then the case of Phinehas would have provided an inherent contradiction and would have demonstrated justification by a righteous and zealous act.." John Murray, Commentary on Romans, Vol. 1, p. 131. Psalm 106:30-31 refers to the incident recorded in Numbers 25 in which the men of Israel had sex with Moabite women. The Lord ordered Moses to kill them. Phinehas grabbed a spear and killed a man and woman who were engaging in this sexual sin. God tells Moses that Phinehas was zealous for God's honor, and that as a result of his act Phinehas turned God's wrath away. This is the act that Phinehas is accounted for righteousness. Nothing about an alien righteousness. Phinehas is not merely considered righteous, but this righteousness is inherent. Phinehas' act is a righteous act where God rewards faithfulness. In the same way, Genesis 15 is where God rewards Abraham as he continues in the faithfulness that he has had for years. Abraham continues to be justified.

>>129379520
can't handle truth loser?

>>129377378
>Acts 8:36-38
Infant baptism BTFO

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>>129379085
In know I didn't say it was wrong I said that there were Roman Catholic Saints that held to it and were still Roman catholci you dumbass for thousands of years.

>>129379541

Of course, Abraham's justification continues in Genesis 22. James specifically says that Abraham is justified by works (James 2:21-24). To the idea that he is only 'showing' his justification before men based on v. 18, is James answer, that what he is showing is that he is justified by works (v. 21). (done in faithfulness, and under the auspices of God's grace). Of course Abraham was all by himself and there was no justification before man, when he offered Isaac on the altar. His continuing justification is dependent upon Abraham's actions. Works don't merely qualify the faith that he has, they complete the faith (v.23), and is necessary to be efficacious for salvation. Just as Paul writes "If you have all the faith to move mountains but do not have love, it is worth nothing," (1 Cor. 13:2), James writes that what separates you from salvation, is if you lack works (James 2:21-26). Again, for a closer look at James and Abraham please see this.

Thus, the Bible is clear that in Romans 4, it is absolutely impossible to say that the justification talked of about Abraham, in any way possible could be a one time imputation of forensic righteousness imputed to Abraham's account, and therefore he was set for life, and all the other stuff was merely fruit. Instead, it shows justification to be an ongoing process.

>>129376289
Are you Galatian? No? Then not a thing.

>>129379606
The problem is that this view not only distorts the life of Abraham a few verses earlier, but also the life of David, which Paul uses as an example to prove in verses 6-8 what he is saying in Rom. 4:4-5. In v. 6 Paul writes, 'So Also' to say that David is saved in the same way as Abraham. To prove his point Paul quotes a Psalm of David from which he elucidates his theology. Let us examine the background and the context of the psalm that Paul is quoting from. The Protestant understanding must be that here is where David is justified, and his righteousness is credited (forensically imputed alien righteousness). Since this is the point of David's justification, this must be the first and only time that David is justified. Anything done before this point of time, David is an unregenerate man, and anything after Psalm 32 David is merely for the fruit of justification, or sanctification. If David had already been justified beforehand, and here is again justified, defacto it shows that justification is a process. Any response must take this into account:

Psalm 32:1 "Blesses is he whose transgressions are forgiven, who sins are covered. Blessed is the man who sin the Lord does not count against him." David is rejoicing here, (as in Psalm 51) that God is here forgiving him for his sins of adultery and slaying of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite. The time of the events that he is getting forgiveness for is 2 Samuel 11-12.

>>129379589
No Church Father hold onto Sola Fide

They ONLY DENY MERIT

>>129379520
Exactly, he's a shill. Some atheist that's upset with /pol/ being a Christian board

>>129379656

An important question that concerns us, is this the time of David's one and only justification, as a Protestant of the Calvinist leaning must hold? Everything done before this time he is an unbeliever, and everything after is only the 'fruit' of his justification, supposedly. On the contrary, David since his youth knew and loved the Lord. He sang Psalms to God to soothe Saul. He was not unregenerate then. In 1 Samuel 13:14, years before 2 Sam. 11-12 and Psalm 32, David is called a "man after God's own heart" a distinction given to NO OTHER MAN IN THE BIBLE. And yet, we are supposed to believe that David was an unregenerate man then in order to maintain the one-time imputation theory? In his youth, David called on the Lord to defeat the mighty Goliath (1 Samuel 17). Was he merely a pagan then, according to the one-time imputation theory? David showed his love for God by dancing with all his might (2 Sam. 6:14). The Psalms prior to the time of Psalm 32 were also written well before the events of 2 Sam. 11-12, which were the occasion for Psalm 32. This shows indeed that David was a true child of God before the events of Psalm 32. Otherwise, we would have Psalms written before the time of Psalm 32 by an unregenerate pagan who had no real relationship with God. It would be quite unlikely that the Psalms were written by unbelievers.

I believe in God, but this middle eastern religion garbage is just another system of control. Fuck all of them.

>>129379740
>I hate the truth

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>>129370572
>>129370856
>>129370886
>>129372255
>>129373915
>>129376377


14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Whatever kind of idiot wrote the bible apparantly thought that plants existed before the sun, keep your cringy christ-chans to yourself.

>>129379752

Although David earlier in his life was a true child of God, he did something to make himself ungodly. He committed major sin (per. 1 John 5:17, Gal. 5:19, 1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:5) with Bathsheba and Uriah to make him become ungodly (2 Sam.11-12). He disinherited himself. That is how he could be called ungodly coming into Psalm 32 (and thus explains how he was termed ungodly in Romans 4:5). How was he forgiven? By sincere repentance given in the grace of God as so heartfelt to put it in Psalms 32 and 51. He did not earn his way back through law, as Paul clearly states one can not do. In this state of mortal sin, he responds to God's grace and is rejustified. He is put back in God's grace. However, it is not David earning his way back into God's grace, not as an employee from an employer. It is a Father-Son relationship. Paul shows that works do not earn his grace back, but his justification is won back by repentance, which is the very point of Rom. 4:4-8. Paul's sees David's acknowledgment and confession of his sin, a total reliance and recognition of God's beneficence, grace and mercy, reflecting the Catholic position. He is here credited as righteousness. The fact of David's earlier Godly life, with the fact that he put himself outside of God's grace, and the fact that his repentance led him to justification shows several things fatal to the Calvinist understanding of justification:

1) The language used here is not meant to imply a forensic view of a one time justification. David already was a believer well before this point in time.

2) David, although he was quite clearly a believer who loved God with all his heart, fell out of God's grace by mortal sin. That is why he needs to be forgiven to be put back in God's grace. David's grace-driven repentance puts him back into God's favor.

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>>129378842
Then they came to the other side of the sea into the region of the Gerʹa·senes.+ 2 And immediately after Jesus got out of the boat, a man under the power of an unclean spirit met him from among the tombs.* 3 His haunt was among the tombs, and up to that time, absolutely no one was able to bind him securely, even with a chain. 4 He had often been bound with fetters and chains, but he snapped the chains apart and smashed the fetters; and nobody had the strength to subdue him. 5 And continually, night and day, he was crying out in the tombs and in the mountains and slashing himself with stones. 6 But on catching sight of Jesus from a distance, he ran and bowed down to him.+ 7 Then he cried out with a loud voice: “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I put you under oath by God not to torment me.”+ 8 For Jesus had been saying to it: “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit.”+ 9 But Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” And he replied: “My name is Legion, because there are many of us.” 10 And he kept pleading with Jesus not to send the spirits out of the country.+
11 Now a great herd of swine+ was feeding there at the mountain.+ 12 So the spirits pleaded with him: “Send us into the swine, so that we may enter into them.” 13 And he gave them permission. With that the unclean spirits came out and went into the swine, and the herd rushed over the precipice* into the sea, about 2,000 of them, and were drowned in the sea.

>>129377370
What's sanctifying grace?

>>129379711
I dono't have time for this bu yes three in particular did hold to you it. In 2000 years there were some who did you silly goy now get over yourself

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven." All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. - 1 Clement to the Corinthians
- Pope Clement I

>>129379823

3) The crediting of righteousness is based not on an acceptance of an alien righteousness. His repentance was needed to get back into God's righteousness. When one is in this state, then one has a Father-Son relationship at the heart of justification. Then, under the auspices of grace, out of love, the Son responds with works of love that is necessary for ultimate justification (Rom. 2:6-13, 6, 8:1-39, Gal. 5-6) and one becomes a doer of the law in the realm of God's grace.

4) The next question that must be faced is when it says that God justifies the ungodly, does it mean that the grounds of one's justification before God is separate from an infusion of grace, as Calvinists maintain.? For a fuller examination of this specific issue, and other aspects of David's justification on Romans 4 see the following: Romans 4:4-8: Proof for Justification by Faith Alone?

5) Most importantly to the issue that we are addressing, it shows that justification is a process. David we know was justified before 2nd Sam. 11-12. However, his sin made him ungodly, and he had to be fully cleansed. He was out of grace, and the repentance by him showed in Psalm 32/51 had to be done by him in order to get back into God's grace. The fact that this repentance was necessary to get back into God's grace shows that justification is a process, and not a one time thing, so foundational to the theologies of the likes of Calvin, Buchanan, Sproul, and James White. Paul knows these things about David's life before Psalm 32.

should I read apologetics or the bible first?

>>129379861
CHAP. XXX.--LET US DO THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE GOD, AND FLEE FROM THOSE HE HATES, THAT WE MAY BE BLESSED.

Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change,(3) all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. "For God," saith [the Scripture], "resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble."(4) Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. LET US CLOTHE OURSELVES WITH CONCORD AND HUMILITY, EVER EXERCISING SELF-CONTROL, STANDING FAR OFF FROM ALL WHISPERING AND EVIL-SPEAKING, BEING JUSTIFIED BY OUR WORKS, AND NOT OUR WORDS. For [the Scripture] saith, "He that speaketh much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who liveth but a short time: be not given to much speaking."(5) Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hateth those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers. Boldness, and arrogance, and audacity belong to those that are accursed of God; but moderation, humility, and meekness to such as are blessed by Him.

CHAP. XXXI.--LET US SEE BY WHAT MEANS WE MAY OBTAIN THE DIVINE BLESSING.

>>129379761
You don't believe in God if you don't believe in Jesus.

>>129379978
Let us cleave then to His blessing, and consider what are the means(6) of possessing it. Let us think(7) over the things which have taken place from the beginning. For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not BECAUSE HE WROUGHT RIGHTEOUSNESS AND TRUTH THROUGH FAITH?(8) Isaac, with perfect confidence, as if knowing what was to happen,(9) cheerfully yielded himself as a sacrifice.(10) Jacob, through reason(11) of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel.

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Why does Lot's wife turn into a pillar of salt for no reason?

>>129379997
protestantism is false

>>129378220
Wait didn't he expost jews? When did he make fun of Christians?

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Daily reminder that Jerusalem is Jewish and no Christian cuck is ever going to change that.

>>129379219
Where is that text from anon?

>>129380015
CHAP. XXXII
Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.(12) For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, "Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven." All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men. Amen

>>129380150
I wrote it myself

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>>129380032
>Disobeying God's strict commands
>le lolorcoptr why he be dun doin dat Fer no reason Ya'll xD

>>129380160

CHAP. XXXIII.--BUT LET US NOT OWE UP THE PRACTICE OF GOOD WORKS AND LOVE. GOD HIMSELF IS AN EXAMPLE TO US OF GOOD WORKS.
What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them. He also divided the earth from the water which surrounds it, and fixed it upon the immovable foundation of His own will. The animals also which are upon it He commanded by His own word(16) into existence. So likewise, when He had formed the sea, and the living creatures which are in it, He enclosed them [within their proper bounds] by His own power. Above all,(17) with His holy and undefiled hands He formed man, the most excellent [of His creatures], and truly great through the understanding given him--the express likeness of His own image. For thus says God: "Let us make man in Our image, and after Our likeness. So God made man; male and female He created them."[1] Having thus finished all these things, He approved them, and blessed them, and said, "Increase and multiply."(2) We see,(3) then, HOW ALL RIGHTEOUS MEN HAVE BEEN DORNED WITH GOOD WORKS, and how the Lord Himself, adorning Himself with His works, rejoiced. Having therefore such an example, let us without delay accede to His will, and LET US WORK THE WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS with our whole strength.

oops

>>129379978
Well yes I agree with that. But thats very much like the statement in James, but justify can mean in greek "it's Gotta show or it isn't real". ANd works do profit us and you should NEVER dsicourage a man from doing good works.

>>129380055
What does believing in Jesus have to do with Protestantism?

>>129380055
Then return to Ireland.

>>129380190
Did you really? That's fairly well done anon, ever think of getting published or uploading it to google docs where it's easier to read?

>>129380234
CHAP. XXXIV.--GREAT IS THE REWARD OF GOOD WORKS WITH GOD. JOINED TOGETHER IN HARMONY, LET US IMPLORE THAT REWARD FROM HIM.
The good servant(4) receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: "Behold, the Lord [cometh], and His reward is before His face, TO RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORK."(5) He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this,(6) that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work. Let our boasting and our confidence be in Him. Let us submit ourselves to His will.

Preceding this section, Clement also wrote of Rahab's justification:

Chapter 12.-The Rewards of Faith and Hospitality. Rahab.
On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. Chapter 48 says:
Let us therefore, with all haste, put an end to this [state of things]; and let us fall down before the Lord, and beseech Him with tears, that He would mercifully be reconciled to us, and restore us to our former seemly and holy practice of brotherly love. For [such conduct] is the gate of righteousness, which is set open for the attainment of life, as it is written, "Open to me the gates of righteousness; I will go in by them, and will praise the Lord: this is the gate of the Lord: the righteous shall enter in by it." Although, therefore, many gates have been set open, yet this gate of righteousness is that gate in Christ by which blessed are all they that have entered in and have directed their way in holiness and righteousness, doing all things without disorder.

What is denied is MERIT NOT GOOD WORKS IN GENERAL WHICH STILL FACTOR INTO SALVATION

>>129380032
didn't she look at her back when God told her not to do it?

>>129376393
>work salvation
What? Please explain, I am an atheist and do not understand what is going on at all

>>129380246
that is NOT Sola Fide

>>129380317
No because I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO IS SMART

>>129380313
Fact is Fact

>>129380071
Long term it's impossible for the jewish state to exist in the middle east and arabs will continuer their sectant infighting. The only option is for Christians to reclaim it.

>>129380425
>>129379219

Christianity is fairy tale bs, convince me otherwise

>>129379997
What? Don't tell me there is some protestant sect that doesn't believe in the Trinity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei_Hu1hcsa4&t=7s

What do you all think of this?

>>129380055
Pio de Pietrelcina said that the english would, one by one, convert to catholicism.

>>129380425
Alms, Acts of Compassion, Rewards, and Atonement for Sins
June 1, 2017

David J. Downs, Alms: Charity, Reward, and Atonement in Early Christianity (Baylor University Press, 2016), will be an enlightening and stimulating read for many. His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries reflect the beliefs that doing acts of kindness/mercy (including, but not restricted to financial assistance) was widely encouraged, was portrayed as something that God would reward eschatologically, and was also regarded as a way of atoning for sins.

Downs also shows cogently that this view seems to have sat comfortably alongside the conviction that Jesus’ death was the supreme and unique atonement for sins. In some texts, the explicit distinction is that Jesus’ death atones for pre-baptismal sins and merciful-acts help cover post-baptismal sins. In other texts, however, the distinction isn’t so sharp, and the authors simply affirm the uniqueness of Jesus’ atoning death alongside exhortations to merciful acts as also “covering a multitude of sins.”

Protestants especially may find Downs’s analysis startling or troubling, and may be tempted to write off the texts that he cites as simply failing to maintain the uniqueness of Jesus’ redemptive work. But I think that would be a mistake. For the notions of meritorious actions (i.e., merciful actions that God rewards) are there all through the NT as well, including sayings ascribed to Jesus (e.g., Matthew 6:1-4; Luke 12:33)!

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>>129380433
That is it is essence what sola fide was meant to say even if some protestants don't recognize it as such. It means that ultimately Jesus Christ is our redeemer, but we show our transformation thorugh our good works and we are very much rewarded for our good works and apprecated, it's just that Jesus is our redeemer.

It isn't often said because it gets often misconstrued, and even some Protestants don't understand it.

>>129380699
No. THey will die

I know because I see it

>>129379790
He created light first you retard. Like in Rev 21 there will be light on the new earth but no sun

>>129378584
Atheists trying to derail. I really only poke at catholics, if they do actually hate someone who has unshakable faith in Christ then at hatred is not reciprocated.

>>129380759
It isn't dumbass

Sola Fide is something declaring you righteous not on any basis

But Abraham was justified by something

HIS FAITH

HIS FAITH IS ONE OF OBEDEDIENCE

>>129380736


After a lengthy Introduction, Downs first reviews references to acts of mercy that acquire rewards in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint). Then, he addresses texts in the “Apocrypha,” Jewish writings that were sometimes cited as scriptural but didn’t make it into the finalized Hebrew Bible. In particular, texts from Tobit and Sirach were frequently cited by early Christians as bases for their encouragement to merciful actions.

Thereafter, he gives a close analysis of early Christian texts. This includes the Synoptic Gospels and Acts (chap. 4), the Pauline epistles (chap 5, which includes attention to the NT writings typically regarded as written in Paul’s name but not by him), and the influence of 1 Peter 4:8 (“love covers a multitude of sins”) in subsequent early Christianity (chap. 6).

In chap 7, Downs cites early Christian writings that connect care for the needy with belief in the resurrection, and that accuse those Christians who didn’t believe in a bodily resurrection of a connected lack of interest in such merciful acts. In chap. 8, Downs shows that early Christian teachings about almsgiving and related kindness were grounded in exegesis of scriptural texts, and were not foreign elements in early Christian concerns.

>>129380055
Cuckolickism is false

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>>129380664
The documentary opened my eyes on many things and made realist just how much jews hide from us. They don't even follow the old testament as much as we think and believe that God is a part female. Look up what the Talmud says about Jesus it's really disgusting.

>>129380918


In his conclusion, Downs reflects on how the evidence that he reviews might be regarded by Christians today, especially Evangelical Protestants, who might be inclined to think that these texts exhibit some declension from a “pure” faith in Jesus’ atoning significance.

I won’t go into more detail and spoil the reading of the book for others. It’s a well-researched, well-written and organized book, and the basic line of argument seems to me compelling.

Review by Early Christianity scholar Larry Hurtado

Who is also Protestant

Baylor is also Protestant

>>129380652
If someone says they believe in God but not Christianity, then they believe in a god, not God

>>129380961
https://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/alms-acts-of-compassion-rewards-and-atonement-for-sins/

>>129380870
The righteousness comes from Jesus but too many darn people don't understand that so Martin Luther should have avoided the topic to begin with.

>>129380190
Wow you wrote that your self? You really do have autism.

>>129380736
So... you can't be saved by doing good things, you can only be saved by believing? Doesn't that sort of just create a culture of "believe what I believe and do what I say or else"?

>>129381050
Show me a Church Father who said that righteousness is imputed into you

Go on

Show me a Church Father that declares justification or Salvation as a one time event

Go on

>>129380425
Cuckolicks and Orthofags believe you have to do good works to get to Heaven even though the Bible says you only need faith.

>>129380986
I have, it was a very knowledgeable documentary and something I use when people argue that Christians/Catholics are tools of the jews and that it is our duty to defend the jews.

>>129381092
Read it again, you HAVE to do it and it contributes to your salvation

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>>129380601
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/125637346/#125637346

>>129379301
Im 100% sure he is atheist, he is spamming and flooding to derail, remember to report and hide. Hopefully mods will ban him.

>>129381216
>>129381035
>/
>>129379219

On December five and twenty
fum, fum, fum.
On December five and twenty,
fum, fum fum.
Oh, a child was born this night
So rosy white, so rosy white
Son of Mary, virgin holy
In a stable, mean and lowly,
fum, fum, fum

>>129381030
Of course. I just thought that there were Christians who didn't believe in the Trinity.

>>129381092
No, those that believe Jesus died for their sins, receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit changes your heart and with that comes good works

>>129381334
>OP spams
>ok
>I do it
>not ok
Hypocrisy

>>129381050
>The righteousness comes from Jesus but too many darn people don't understand that so Martin Luther should have avoided the topic to begin with.
That is with regards to sola fide the way it's presented is a horrible way so it doesn't get the word across.

>>129381197
>And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews
But yes people are tried in the fire and increase in quality of character through out their life.

>>129381297
I see. Interesting

>>129381035
Thanks for proving me right

>>129381458
That isn't evidence of salvation being ONE TIME

It speaks of Jesus' role in it and the atonement

It doesn't say OSAS or Sola Fide

>>129381426
No one believes in that shit

Because everyone before Calvin believe Salvation to be a PROCESS

Oh, I remember who this brit anon is, it's the guy that used to spam the "I want to kill all prodies" threads, anyone remember those?

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>>129381439
You 4 times the posts i have

>>129381571
Go on, show me how it proves you right

>>129381421
I was replying to someone that said they believe in God but not Christianity

>>129381700
Because these are refutations I wrote which are extensive and relevant

so far

zero replies or attempts to refute them

>>129381703
because you're a queer

>>129381791
>I cannot show how something proves me right

>>129381604
Well all sins were remitted at the Cross once and for all, but you can access that through a priest which is what they are there for.
>What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
>God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

>>129381661
What I just said isn't a process?

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>>129378003
Chinese actually.
>Christcucks will have wasted their lives praying to empty space

>>129381779
You didn't prove anything

also
>Genesis 15:6: And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
>Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (See John 6:40)
>Matthew 7:22-23: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
>Luke 5:20: And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
>Luke 23:40-43: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
>John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
>John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
>John 6:28-29: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
>John 6:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (See Matthew 7:21)

>>129381843
Why did Paul have to tell you not to do that shit?

Because to him Salvation is process

It is done and it is future which is why he uses the example of the metaphor of the athlete

>>129382031
>John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
>Luke 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
>John 6:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
>John 6:47: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

>>129381906
Is justification one time?

>>129382093
>Acts 10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
>Acts 16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
>Romans 1:17-18: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
>Romans 3:28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
>Romans 4:5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
>Romans 5:1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
>Romans 10:9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
>Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
>Romans 14:23: …for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
>1 Corinthians 1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
>Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

>>129382031
Actually I did
>>129379219
His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries reflect the beliefs that doing acts of kindness/mercy (including, but not restricted to financial assistance) was widely encouraged, was portrayed as something that God would reward eschatologically, and was also regarded as a way of atoning for sins.

>>129382163
>Galatians 2:21: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
>Galatians 3:8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
>Galatians 5:4-5: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
>Ephesians 1:13-14: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
>Ephesians 2:8-10: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
>Philippians 3:9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
>1Timothy 1:1: Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
>Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
>James 2:10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

>>129382163
>protestant hypocrisy 101

>>129382081
Well yeah I agree that salvation is a process that is a tenant of sola fide as well. It needs to be focused on more than anything your good works it does matter. You do get rewarded for it and that is of the utmost importance. But you misunderstand me that salvation comes from God throught the cross (and I mean that His passion was a one time event.)

I met Jesus.

>>129382201
Nigger Galatians and Romans had been dealt with ITT>>129379219
>>129379312
>>129379403
>>129379427
>>129379470
>>129379541
>>129379606
>>129379656
>>129379752
>>129379823
>>129379869

>>129382189
>His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries reflect the beliefs that doing acts of kindness/mercy (including, but not restricted to financial assistance) was widely encouraged, was portrayed as something that God would reward eschatologically, and was also regarded as a way of atoning for sins.
>His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries reflect the beliefs that doing acts of kindness/mercy (including, but not restricted to financial assistance) was widely encouraged,
>His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries reflect the beliefs that doing acts of kindness/mercy
>His central thesis is that early Christian texts of the first three centuries
> that early Christian texts of the first three centuries
>that early Christian texts
>early Christian
I really do not care

Unless you're talking about a different Jesus.

>>129382345
>Nigger
Don't make fun of yourself

>>129382329
It isn't

Sola Fide states justification is one time and it is something declarative

Abraham had faith to merit justification. His faith is described as obedience and trust in God when shit happens.

Now how does this fit with Sola Fide? Because that means something Abraham did merits Salvation but God does not see "how much" he does but his faith which is shown by his acts

>>129382329
I also want to mention that Paul says that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" and that is used to clarify that when people go to purgatory, they will never go to hell. Because they are a part of the Church

>>129382390
>he didn't read the book where the author covers the Bible as well

>>129381061
He is spamming and flooding to derail and make discussion difficult while pushing towards bump limit, the copy pasting proves as much, then just pepper with random insults towards protestant that only an atheist would say to get another 5 replies.

100% atheist troll, remember to report him every 3 minutes.

>>129382567
You idiot NOBODY SAYS THOSE IN PURGATORY GOES TO HELL

LMAO you people. It's all bullshit. If you're gonna be religious LARP as a pagan or something like Varg does , i mean seriosuly.

>>129382340
On a crossroads?

>>129380826
interesting! light out of nowhere without the sun or stars that nourished the plants! like magic!

not to mention that the earth is younger than the sun, truly fascinating"

>>129382639
>Protestant spam ok
>not ok when I do it and it is actually arguments
>Protestants can insult
>I cannot
Proddie hypocrisy

>>129382550
Well not even Martin Luther said that justification was a one time event. I understand waht you mean and I've looked into Sola Fide in decent deal and it means pretty much what you are saying but in different words .

>>129382660
Please don't call me an idiot I'm trying to clarify this so you won't get angry wit me

>>129382639
Again, is justification ONE TIME

When I engaged with you, you refused to see it and misrepresent me

Maybe when you actually engage what I provided then I won;t have to do it

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>>129382013
dirty lying christkikes

>>129382768
I've seen you before. Why do you hate the protestants so much? I understand not agreeing on theology but you seem really mad.

>>129382726
nah , on a mountain

>>129382786
Luther didn't dumbass. Luther said it happens more than once. Calvin says otherwise. In fact if you want to be so smart I can say I am Sola Fide because Faith simply have to be acted out and any works is really just faith acted out so Sola Fide

I can even be so smart and say because my faith is aided by Grace, I believe in Sola gratia

I can even be so smart and say that because Christ is the only one that made salvation possible, Solus Christus

I can even be so smart and say because only God is worshipped, Soli deo gloria

I can even be so smart and say because Scripture is the highest authority and center, Sola Scriptura

But this is so vague anyone can say "I believe them"

And this is the same when you claim there are Church Fathers who believe Sola Fide

Did you look at them in detail?

Did you consider whether there are thinking the same shit as Protestants when they use terms that sound Sola Fide?

>>129382660
>Purgatory
>real

>>129382660
ID: Aeuq5OD3
Spamming flooding
90 replies in -30- min
>>>/global/rules/10

>>129383313
>Christianity
>real

>>129383313
>waah someone spam
>*spams bible verses such that there is no room to debate and contest them*

>>129383313
it's all nonsense

>>129382757
>God has to follow physics

>>129383438
and the devil isn't real either

>>129383430
>Protestant does the same
>ok
>I do it
>flooding
kys hypocrite

>>129383618
You have 86 posts I have 32 and I started the thread

>>129383280
>Solus Christus
Christ alone? What's that?

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>>129383313
While I'm not a Catholic, and don't believe in 'Purgatory' I must agree that as a simple step of logic, something 'like' it probably must exist.

I mean look at the question purely psychologically. Let us imagine a Christian, far from perfect, is to perish, and ascend at once into the heavens. Then what?

His thoughts, ways, habits, and philosophy are all stained with sin and error. This means, logically speaking the only conclusions one can take are

1. The Christian is to be brainwashed immediately into compliance, which is untenable, and becomes more untenable the 'fresher' the Christian. A fresh convert thus transfigured wouldn't even be the same person anymore.

2. He is permitted into heaven proper, but is under some kind of tutelage until he has fully reformed himself [which I see little issue accepting, its not like his remaining sin is going to stain the place]

3. He is quarantined in a 'Not-Purgatory' until such time as his education is complete.

>>129383730
>hypocrite 101
Tell me when you actually discuss and not spam shit and ad hominem

>>129383536
>ayylmao the bible doesn't have to go by physics because the bible said so

>>129383823
Well done you just believed in Purgatory as CATHOLICISM DESCRIBES IT

>>129383841
>Tell me when you actually discuss and not spam shit and ad hominem
I'm not you

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>>129382867

>>129383823
you guys are so silly

>>129383849
Why would God have to follow physics you retard

>>129383738
It basically means what you said. But in Protestantism that Solus Christus is tied into a Penal Substitutionary Framework

So Solus Christus means Jesus suffered because God used him as a scapegoat since he is so angry at you

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>>129383280
Well Calvin had his differences and I don't deny that their differences of on sola fide. It is defined differently between their different sects. If it has inconsistent definitions in the protestants then don't really just worry about it. Well About Martin Luther he was asked this question about justification and it being one time or a process and he replied that what he meant by justification he also said it includes "sancitification" it's very confusing but he includes this life of works to make you righteous before God and this is why Jesus spoke simply but Martin Luther did not use these words the same way that normal people use them. and Luther was not a simple man but take my word for it. Even Luther stressed obedience waaay more than Protestants want to admit and I'm no fan of Luther either.

>>129383942
>protestant hypocrisy 101

>>129384021
queer fag

>>129383823
u just die and that's it , enjoy ur life while u can

>>129384137
>Catholicism hypocrisy 101

>>129384106
Luther didn't stress obedience. Why? Because he believed there is no free will. So there is no obedience and thus he is inconsistent.

And no I am not making this up. If this is not true, why did he get so assmad when Erasmus say there is free will?

>>129384248
I make no claim that I don't do it or blast people for it

I only blast hypocrisy

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>>129384156
>queer fag
christkikery is disgustingly homophobic
ALL christians should be put to death

u know , i don't take kindly to all this mind reading u seem to be so fond of

kek , what a dumb name

>>129382913
Probably for the same reason any real Christian hates the Jews.

>>129384389
>Protestantism in a nutshell

>>129384185
>t. heathen

>>129384054
WHY COULD HE NOT JUST GET THE FUCKING ORDER RIGHT INSTEAD OF MAKING US BELIEVE THE BIBLE IS UTMOST BULLSHIT YOU RETARD

and were is the broofs that your JAYZUZ is even a real God :D DDD

>>129384054
and isn't cursing a sin you retarded fatass? :^))))

i'm a fabric so nevermind , kek does sound kinda cool desu senpai

>>129384533
If you follow the Protestant intepretation of the Bible, the Bible becomes a book of nonsense

For example, why did God say the moon is a light when we see that it clearly ISNT?

Why did God lie and tell us the world is made in SEVEN days when it is in fact billions of years old

Why did God lied and make it seem that Evolution is true but it is in fact false?

>>129384294
Well he believed that there was no free will before conversion but he believed that there was free will after conversion. Calvin denied it altogether (both heresies) But he did say that obedience is necessary and required in the life of a Christian and Christians do have the ability to respond. Martin Luther doesn't make much sense when it comes to free will and theres a reason for that (because hes totally wrong) Think of it as being tried in the fire, IT NEEDS TO BE DONE or you will not be accepted by God is Holy and Pure and ready for Sainthood. Also Martin Luther left out Sirach because it affirmed free will. kek.

Do not say: “It was God’s doing that I fell away,”

for what he hates he does not do.

12Do not say: “He himself has led me astray,"

for he has no need of the wicked.

13Abominable wickedness the LORD hates

and he does not let it happen to those who fear him.

14God in the beginning created human beings

and made them subject to their own free choice.

15If you choose, you can keep the commandments;

loyalty is doing the will of God.

16Set before you are fire and water;

to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand.

17Before everyone are life and death,

whichever they choose will be given them.

18Immense is the wisdom of the LORD;

mighty in power, he sees all things.

19The eyes of God behold his works,

and he understands every human deed.

20He never commands anyone to sin,

nor shows leniency toward deceivers.

>>129384596
protestant btfo

>>129384596
Why so much hate friend?

>>129384733
and what answers do the other denominations have?

>>129384596
>he doesn't know what cursing is

>>129384746
He didn't hence he believe in Double Predestination

>Also Martin Luther left out Sirach because it affirmed free will. kek.
You made my point clear and prove it

>>129384510
atheists are better people this is a known fact , u want to b a better person don't u?

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>>129384533
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/125637346/#125637346

>>129384746
>you will not be accepted by God is Holy and Pure and ready for Sainthood.
I meant to say you will not be accepted by God until you are Holy and pure and ready for sainthood

>>129384891
Yep pretty much

>>129384840
Others at least have more sense to them since they actually go through context and culture and intent of writing those passages.

Secondly, they don't take the Protestant easy to read approach or clear for all approach literalism

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>>129384946
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

kys leftie

>>129384837
repressed sexuality

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>>129384946

>>129384971
And you now agree with me

And now NEVER SAY THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT SOLA FIDE

>>129384946
>atheists are better people
Mao and Pol Pot are saints aren't they? Pun intended

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>>129384969
i read it, and the bible is still full of bullshit

>>129385071
i'm sort of a fourth position kinda guy

>>129385154
Are Protestants any better when the Reformers would do the same shit?

And even worse, to each other

>>129370572
James.

Fuck off.

>>129384733
>why did God say the moon is a light when we see that it clearly ISNT?
>You can't see the moon

>>129385154
>what does 'average' mean

>>129385243
>>129379219
>>129382345

>>129385133
>mfw g sauce got crucified

>>129385282
Does the moon produce light?

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>>129385143
I agree that in the sense that there are various forms of "sola Fide" out there so you need to definately need to be more specific because there are different branches of it and not all the doctrines of "sola Fide" match up

>>129385154
in my book , yeah

>>129385242
Well as much as I dislike protestants they are better than Mao.

>>129385174
>pic
>you can't skip parts when reading out loud

>>129385242
>102 posts by this ID

>>129385368
No fuck you

Sola Fide IS NEVER USED in the sense of faith being root of works and a faith that is acted out by will

>>129385243
see >>129375310

>>129385416
They are Mao's fathers

>>129385154
but saints aren't real , so

>>129385314
The average atheist is a fedora or a degenerate with no traditions to follow. Commies and pagans are even worse.

>>129385480
>I hate truth

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>>129385382

>>129385564
typical pretentious christian

>>129385542
You're saying the reformation led to atheism? Why?

>>129385363
It shines light it receives from the Sun

stop being a heretic

>>129385659
they weren't that bad , it's the intention that counts

>>129385723
The Bible did not say that

>>129385665
It's the truth over 60% of atheists voted for Hillary.