Universal Basic Income Trial in Finland

>>103402652
Now, the Finnish government is exploring how to change that calculus, initiating an experiment in a form of social welfare: universal basic income. Early next year, the government plans to randomly select roughly 2,000 unemployed people — from white-collar coders to blue-collar construction workers. It will give them benefits automatically, absent bureaucratic hassle and minus penalties for amassing extra income.

Continue reading the main story
The government is eager to see what happens next. Will more people pursue jobs or start businesses? How many will stop working and squander their money on vodka? Will those liberated from the time-sucking entanglements of the unemployment system use their freedom to gain education, setting themselves up for promising new careers? These areas of inquiry extend beyond economic policy, into the realm of human nature.

The answers — to be determined over a two-year trial — could shape social welfare policy far beyond Nordic terrain. In communities around the world, officials are exploring basic income as a way to lessen the vulnerabilities of working people exposed to the vagaries of global trade and automation. While basic income is still an emerging idea, one far from being deployed on a large scale, the growing experimentation underscores the deep need to find effective means to alleviate the perils of globalization.

>>103402652
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Are they ever going to come out and say it? That they want communism in Finland?

This is a good thing

it's not universal if there's a requirement (being jobless).

>>103402802
Good goy. You'll never have to work again. Finland will be the land of unlimited milk and honey. Don't worry about who has to pay for it. It's infinitely sustainable.

>>103402652
(((Goodman)))

>>103402925
>have to work
That's not the thing, the issue in the future will quite simply be that you can't work, since automatization will get rid of such a great deal of jobs.

>>103402652
>everybody becomes jobless
>somehow everybody gets money
Magic!

I don't get basic income.

if people get free money to provide for themselves.
Why bother working?

>>103402652
Universal income is one thing I can get behind from the political left spectrum.

I don't think left wing economic policies are innately bad, it's when they're thrown into a cauldron with a bunch of other left wing stuff including social policies that it becomes degenerate.

There's nothing more soul killing & degrading than having to travel to some welfare centre every week or two and have to explain yourself to them, over and over.

I think working is good and unemployment is bad, but there has to be some work life balance. We should have a 30 hour work week like Denmark.

>Everyone working less hours
>More jobs, less people unemployed
>Economy doing better as a result so slightly higher wage is a possibility
>Universal income works out too and could even cost less if not the same as welfare system because 90% of the bureaucracy and administration needs are removed from the loop, cutting out all of the middle guys & welfare tests & checks & fraud checks & potential crime and so on.

>>103403118
Well as a NEET here this would be my dream. Guarantee me with stability so I would have no concern taking on a low wage or creative job.

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>>103403037
just like the tractor will make farmers obsolete

>>103403118
More money. The basic income isn't enough to actually prosper.

>>103403118
So that you get more money and more hookers

>>103402652
Wrong.

They will give unemployment benefit for life to a bunch of loosers to see what happen.

This is not UBI because, one, it is not universal, two it is not a basic income.

>We are literally going down the shitter because no money
>HEY, LETS GIVE EVERYONE FREE CASH


Nuke us already plox

AYOOO WHERE DA GIBS AT WHITEBOI

>>103403202
Yeah, because this is totally the same thing. A tractor still has a guy driving it. In the future there won't be a guy for that. Sure, there will be a guy to maintain it, but far enough into the future it'll be another robot or robots to maintain the robo-tractor as well.

>>103403037
Yeah, in 2200.

But it's better to get the free money right now, amiright?

>>103402652
I thought the ENTIRE IDEA behind UBI was that everyone got it regardless of whether they had a job. Otherwise it's just the same thing as welfare.

>>103403408
Why do you think it's an experiment, Francois? It's a far better idea to see if it actually works now, instead of in 2200.

>>103403118
Because they want a nice car and a house and holidays in Spain etc...

>>103403118

more money obviously. As I have been collecting welfare for five years now without working an hour I still do better than my friends who are into education, but far worse than my mates who are working shit jobs. It ain't bad though, I learned how to not dream about suicide everyday when I stopped going to work completely.

>>103403434
Yes, at the planning stage. But in reality UBI would do away with traditional welfare and all the bureucracy related to it, since everyone gets that amount of money.

>Ooooooh, so you're a bigot?

>Sorry, no universal income for you!

>O-ook, I'll stop being a bigot! Just give me money!

>>103403296
Accoding to commies, it should.

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>>103402652
Oulu Mega City mentioned, gather at the store plaza everyone!

>>103403408

well no shit dumbass? You wouldn't be even alive to enjoy 2200

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>>103403397
You completely missed the point, good job.

>>103403487
I really just want an apartment and groceries. Money for public transit, although I don't see why poor people couldn't get a discount on Uber Pool in partnership with the government. Some of us are too mentally ill to work to any profitability and disability is hard to get and requires no more than 2000 dollars of possessions at a time so it keeps you pretty impoverished and prevents you from aspiring to ever work.

>>103403202

>batting cages

baka desu senpai

https://aeon.co/essays/what-if-jobs-are-not-the-solution-but-the-problem

A good piece I read on this paradigm shift where we enter a society where maybe 2/3 of people work and the rest get paid for basically having a pulse.

The author is a little retarded about economics (tax the corporations out of all their profits and give the money to people ????) but he follows up later on with some neat points of view about future that is very real.

>>103402652
Eventually the socialists are going to get pissed off because some millionaire is going to get UBI, and they will want oversight and stuff, which basically means the welfare state will be implemented again.

>>103402652
this isn't universal basic income, its just unemployment benefits being payed more efficiently

>>103403558
And Commies are retards.

>>103403596
No, I didn't. I simply implied that you're wrong and fucking retarded, since full automatization completely removes the requirement of human labour and no fucking way can you employ everyone in the service industry. The fuck you going to do? Have to go through a dozen bureucratic agents every time you want to pay a bill? Ten people working a single counter in a shop?

>>103402652
How is this a bad thing? Does working for your jew bosses make your dick hard wage cuck?

>>103403642
Will read anon, thanks!

>>103402811
This. It might be even worse than welfare if the efficiency doesn't go down.

>>103403118
Because you would get even more money then. The UBI would just be a supplement to your paycheck in that case.

>>103403154
>Everyone working less hours
>slightly higher wage
If your production goes down so does the buying power of the currency which would in effect lower salaries.

>More jobs
Has more to do with restrictions on the labour market than anything else.

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>>103403607
Galtism is the answer my friend.

Don't fall for the wageslavery meme.

>>103403596

No, you fucked up by presenting a shitty example. Future jobs will be completely made up jobs to make people feel useful. There will be feelings counsellors, professional huggers, art tip givers, professional feedback givers etc.

Artificial intelligence is all that matters. Once a major breakthrough is made with enough computer-connected devices already in market, it will kill tens of thousands jobs in one year. Mark my words, it will happen.

>>103403563
Woo, Oulu master race

>>103402652
Do note that the free cash isn't all that much. Enough to get you by, but the fact is that money doesnt really motivate people after certain point and constant stress from poverty wont help you get a job.

>>103402652
>ubi
>must be jobless
Wut

>>103403741
>No, I didn't. I simply implied that you're wrong and fucking retarded
Not an argument.

>since full automatization completely removes the requirement of human labour and no fucking way can you employ everyone in the service industry. The fuck you going to do? Have to go through a dozen bureucratic agents every time you want to pay a bill? Ten people working a single counter in a shop?
Fails to address the central point.

Nice try, enjoy working 60 hours a week to support asylum seeking shitskins.

>>103403799
Production wouldn't go down just because the working week is shorter. A company can still run 24/7 with each employee doing 30 hours, it'd just need more employees.

>universal basic income

How about going back to farming your own land instead?

Seems much better an idea don't it?

With technology in the time of a need of basic income, you could probably extract more value out of a smaller piece of land, so there you go.

Sell produce for money to buy luxuries. There. Now you have a stable society that isn't hungry and unemployed. Or at war/instability due to a

>you get a car
>you get a car
>everybody gets a car

policy.

>>103402652
Finland, you must understand that me and my kind are going to go there and exploit the fuck out that offer.

The point of this is just to guarantee a minimum living standard for everyone. It's not gonna give you money to buy sofas and HDTV's whenever you wan't. People will still work.

The current system requires many social workers who controls and oversees everything. With UBI, we need a lot less of these.

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>>103403861
Do you want me to just call out your post for not being an argument, or do you want to format your drivel into something comprehensible?

>>103403464
Because only 2000 people will get it. In my country, we call that a sample.

>>103403806
I haven't worked much in ten years and I doubt I am stable/capable enough to do so. At least a UBI means I am not held awake worrying about being homeless when my parents die. I do not expect to live in luxury. Apt, computer, phone, money for food and public transit.

>>103403154
>30 hour work week
That hasn't been passed and has only been suggested by our most socialist party.
Though the savings on things like daycares, health care etc. might be huge due to people having the time to take care of themselves and their families and less stress. We'll see how it turns out.

>>103402652
>what do you do for a living?
>im a professional NEET
What a time to be alive

>>103403397
implying tractorbot-9000 won't come equipped with self diagnosing and self repairing modules.

>>103403900

you ain't in EU, you ain't going nowhere. We still have that cuban rape ball team locked up for their wrongdoings

>>103403895
>farming your own land

And how are you going to be able to afford enough to buy land in western Europe without being a millionaire?

Universal basic income or "how to collapse the economy in 5 simple steps". I hope I can get out of here before things get bad.

>>103403975
Did you fail to understand the basic sentence which makes up my post or are you talking about all the greentext?

Because I'll admit the greentext was retarded poorly formatted drivel.

>>103403996
>i just want you to pay for me to shitpost on the internet all day and not have to contribute to society

>>103403900
And hopefully we'll have soldiers on the borders ready to shoot you folks.

>>103403991
Yes, that's what I was implying. I just formatted the post a little poorly.

>>103404050
Yes, absolutely. Far enough into the future it's going to be a modular, easy to take apart system with its own repair functions.

>>103403408
You get free money here either way, you just have to sign up for unemployment. This would just remove that

>>103403563
>>103403811
What the fuck, Oulu here too

>>103403996
Why are you unable to work? Are you disabled?

Do what I do, just do contract work for a few months at a time and live as a NEET the rest of the year. If you're frugal it's completely doable.

>>103403504
>>103403504
>>103403504
>>103403504
>>103403504
And here, the UBI fag finally reveal his true nature.

Enjoy it, in the next thread, he won't do that mistake.

>>103404121
I'd like to contribute but at this point I think I would need to be in some sort of program with other weirdos/NEETS to give me part time structure/work. I don't think working a McJob is an incentive for societal participation. UBI guarantees if I want to take a risk and do something creative I can.

>>103404198
Contract work of what sort? I'm too mentally ill to get along with others.

>>103403397
Actually there will be guy to maintain and control hundreds of tractors. The guy will likely control the robot to fix and maintain it as well.

Binary systems are generally bad at problem solving. They're much more effective at repeatitive tasks.

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>>103404112
>just like the tractor will make farmers obsolete
This. What is your point? That robots will not make the owners of the factories and the manifacturers of the robots themselves obsolete? That we'll have an absolute elite overclass that controls everything in our societies? That the underclass that normally would have done the jobs replaced by the robots are now completely without work?

What point here did I exactly miss?

>>103404151
And who will pay the bill?

>>103404236
Yeah, until we get strong AI and the guy maintaining that shit loses his job and now there's a single guy just monitoring a dozen different AI systems.

>>103404241
>What point here did I exactly miss?
The fact you can't understand the basic underlying logic tells me you're the perfect drone, continue working 60 hours a week to support Achmed and Fatima with their 8 children.

>>103404098
You mustn't flee. You should fight for your Volk.

>>103404207

lol i'm not hugely in favor of basic income as I get more money from social welfare system now than I would get from experimental basic income. And i'm not ashamed at all because I just can't force myself to care if some middle aged cunt has to slave away to pay my living. World is full of choices.

>>103404212
But if you just want to sit on your ass and ejoy life, it's fine too.

So, who will pay? The few who take risks to do something productive?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxUzTW5dM4o

retards btfo

>>103404303
It will reduce the number of social workers needed. It's mainly just to simplify things and make it more effective. Not about saving that much money.

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>>103404327
See, that's not an argument. Why is it you retards who memespout NOT AN ARGUMENT never are capable of actually forming your own, cohesive arguments and taking part in civilised discussions?

Are you people just stupid, or intentionally just fucking with people for enjoyment? I want to know, because stupidity is the one thing that makes me want to slap a nigger, but baiting is just fine.

>>103404463
why should I take the risk if the reward goes to NEETs?

>>103404493
>See, that's not an argument.

Not an argument.

>>103404431
>And i'm not ashamed at all because I just can't force myself to care if some middle aged cunt has to slave away to pay my living.
Wow. I do not expected so much honesty.

Unfortunately, you see, we live in democracies and the majority don't want to watch the world burn.

>>103404472
doesn't a minimum wage counter his point? Not that I think UBI wont be a long term disaster

>>103404463
Ideally I'd like to do something with my life, the reality is I might not and I'd like to not fear becoming homeless. I didn't ask to be mentally ill, I've tried all sorts of programs and medicines.

>>103402652
>Must be jobless

This is where they fail.

Now there is less incentive to look for a job.
The whole idea of UBI is to remove the financial barrier of getting a job.

>>103402652
Wasn't this idea already buried?

>>103404493
>See, that's not an argument.
No it was a statement, in response to a statement, keep up the top tier logic lad.

>>103404232
Web development.

Maybe try a night shift job if you want minimal interaction with normies.

>>103404493

well he is a fucking retard who can't speak his mind. Thats why he is constantly trying to point out some "argumentative mistakes" as they'd matter shit on 4chan lol

>>103404555
It is the point. I am waiting for the funland to answer but he already said he enjoy turning that guy into a slave.

>>103404083
>afford enough to buy land

>>103403895
>With technology in the time of a need of basic income, you could probably extract more value out of a smaller piece of land, so there you go.

Speaking of which, might be worthwhile to research current day possibilities, might turn out to be profitable.

>>103404630
what kind of web dev do you do/how much do you make?

>>103404562
Oh look, one of the memespouter retards who doesn't even understand what "not an argument" is about. Unscrew your head and shove it up your butt, okay?

>>103404618
Taking note of all your posts, you made a single original argument, then proceeded to shit all over the thread with your retardation once it was challenged. Calling you out on that is completely valid.

test

>>103404630
I've tried coding I'm terrible at it. That would be first choice if I could do it. My fine motor skills are kind of fucked.

>>103403202
Jesus Christ you're stupid. I'd debunk your stupid "argument" but you're not worth the energy I'd have to spend to prove you wrong. You're inferior to Abbos.

>>103404704
>once it was challenged
It wasn't challenged or addressed in any way. You didn't even come close to refuting it.

>>103404472
>UBI is a really bad idea now, so in a negative future situation with notable automatization and mass unemployment UBI is still a bad idea
?

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>>103404832
Yeah, this is bait.

>>103404472
>Money made out of thin air
>Inflation
>tfw all money is already thin air as over 90% of all wealth in the world is literally debt to the world bank.
topkek

>>103404722
You got fucked too? Try deleting your cookies.

>>103402681
>penalties for amassing extra income
yes finnplebs don't save money, keep spending !

>>103404911
It's best to ignore that literal Abbo retard.
I refuse to believe anyone can be that stupid.

>>103404576

well the majority of finland has been assfucked all day long, they are basically bunch of cucks who deserve to be slaves. For example, our government just broke the laws by omitting the chancellor of justice in their lawmaking. Middle aged sheep were enraged of course, but nothing will happen. They will slave away tomorrow and next year and year after that until an AI, chinks or simple automatics make them obsolete

>>103404911
>make a stupid point
>someone refutes it
>spill spaghetti everywhere LOL U DIDNT EVEN MAKE A POINT HAHAHAHA
>no u
>LOL THIS IS BAIT HAHA

not an argument

>>103404696
PHP, JS and Drupal development mainly.

I made £35k at my last full time job. So maybe slightly above the national average.

>>103404731
You can teach yourself coding mate. There's plenty of tutorials online. Try and get a junior assistant job at first and learn from someone.

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>>103402652
I know this is not a good thing but I support it because if it passes I no longer have to technically not cheat the welfare system.

>>103405065
No I have tried it. I genuinely am not capable of it. My brain does not work that way.

>>103402652
>give free money
>import arabs and niggers

What could go wrong?

Good for finland desu.

dumb /pol/acks here don't know that UBI is meant to replace the antiquated welfare system and actually supplements consumer income who then *gasp* turn around and spend the money in exchange for goods.

not only that but we're going to have to seriously find a solution to the impending automation crisis.

>>103405006
How is it possible to hate people so much? What is life like in Funland?

>>103404976
>I refuse to believe anyone can be that stupid.
I fucking wish that was true. I can't help but want to physically harm these retards.

Amazon already launched shop with no registers and robots/automated systems are already better handling inventories.

Automated cars are already todays technology and will soon replace many workers in transportation industry (Which is huge)

Self service kiosks are already implemented in many stores and restaurants and only thing holding them back are the misserable wages of fast food restaurants.

Future jobs will require highly educated workforce to handle, maintain and develop these systems. Currently probably less than 10% off world population meets those requirements so good luck with that

>>103404429
Sometimes the best solution is to vote with your feet.

>>103405125

speak for yourself, almost all the sandnigger refugees in my town moved to germany after the winter was too harsh for them

>>103404804
Am I worth the energy?

I've seen a fully automated electronics assembly plant.
Packaging was still done by hand, but no human touched the products before the packaging department.

The plant provides a lot of high paying jobs to engineers who are constantly optimizing the process.

>>103405133
Yeah, yeah, it's how it is sold.

Then numbers come and SURPRISE! Costs doubled! Don't forget to pay yours taxes if you are still willing to work, they have doubled too.

>>103405202
>Future jobs will require highly educated workforce to handle, maintain and develop these systems. Currently probably less than 10% off world population meets those requirements so good luck with that
Yeah and then at some point we'll get strong AI that will develop exponentially, until we have automatons and AI systems capable of doing any and all jobs humans once did.

>>103405133
>actually supplements consumer income who then *gasp* turn around and spend the money in exchange for goods.
keynes pls go

what happens when you get a bunch of welfare mothers shooting out babies for more UBI? either you give them income per baby or they end up with welfare state starting up again.

>>103405266
>The plant provides a lot of high paying jobs to engineers who are constantly optimizing the process.
Yes, for a while. Either the process will be optimized to a point where the engineers no longer have a job, or their job will be replaced by a computer system.

>>103405202
Fine, fine, now call us back when full automation is the reality, not a projection.

>>103402652
How long before theyre 50% muslim?

>>103403340

We are already giving people free cash. But this would be definitely cheaper than the usual route.

>>103403202
It did though we've gone from eras where almost the entire population had to produce food to now nearly no one

>>103405125
>>give free money
>>import arabs and niggers
>What could go wrong?

If you do it correctly:
- only give money to citizens.
- no more minimum wage.
- immigrants have to compete against citizens who are willing to work for far less becasue they already have their bills payed.

>>103405309
>world population
Wooops. You wanted to said, of rich countries population. Nigger alone will soon have more people than the USA. 4 billions nogs for 2100, and industrialization is still only starting for them.

If you want UBI, you need a wall.

>>103405303

what is the problem with taxes if its actually used for public infrastructure and costs?

I would much rather pay 50% effective tax rate for:

-A world class education system
-A public healthcare option
-Roads/Airports/Seaports that arent in a constant state of disrepair.

>>103405469
>If you want UBI, you need a wall.
Yeah, obviously. We should already have a fucking wall, but the traitors in charge of the EU and our nations want their globalist shitshow, so we're not stopping the migrants at gunpoint.

>>103405455
You don't get it. We have 30% shitskin in our citizen. Refusing citizenship to illegals is a crime against humanity.

We should give it only to people who worked 10 years in their life.

>>103405527
>-A public healthcare option
no you really wouldn't trust me

>>103405184

I don't hate them as in actually wanting to attack or insult them, but I just loathe their passivity to current events, which is pretty ironic since i'm much more lazy and passive than them.

>>103405563
So, if you still want the UBI, you know what you have to do before.

No discussion about the UBI will be constructive until there is a wall.

>>103403890
>it'd just need more employees
So you're just gonna put some philosophy majors in an engineering position? That's some Marxist tier logic.

The work week reduction is pretty much exactly why Greece is in shambles. The economy couldn't keep up with the Euro and the currency grew too strong. The restrictions on labour meant that even less people were employable as wages stagnated and companies preferred to just move their capital out of the country rather than deal with retarded labour laws and employ Greeks.

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>>103403340
hey, if you study religion, fuck, slip of the keyboard there, I meant Kensian economics,
adding cashflow to the economy can revitalise real economic health, enabling new 'growth'.

The reliance on 'growth' is unfortunately currently the problem with capitalism, particularly on intersection with 'usury'

>>103405325

really? what do lower and middle income tax bracket earners do with their money?

They sure as shit dont put in the bank when deposit rates are >1% and interest rates on loans are >4%

>>103405652
>So, if you still want the UBI, you know what you have to do before.
Yes, absolutely. UBI is insane if you do not actually have an effective border policy.

>>103405527
I already pay 60% of my income in taxes and look at what we have.

At this point, you can't give the UBI because you can't double my taxes. You need to give jobs to people.

>>103405610
you can trade with me then bucko, enjoy your 5K deductible which practically locks you out of any healthcare you need lol.

>>103405357
>Yes, for a while. Either the process will be optimized to a point where the engineers no longer have a job

They have to optimize for each new product.
What they actually do is re-arrange the PCB's to make it easier for the machines.

So as long as they bring out new models every year there will always be work here.

>or their job will be replaced by a computer system.

That is a possibility, yes.
But developing such a computer system might actually be more work.

>>103405761

welfare system is supposed to go away if UBI gets implemented, it will actually be cheaper for you.

but how do you suggest stimulating the job market friend?

>>103405810
>But developing such a computer system might actually be more work.
Yes, but once it's done, it's done. The engineers lose their jobs and the system takes over.

>>103405706
wealth redistribution grows the economy?

>>103405775
yeah fine with me, good luck getting to a specialist within 9 months and nevermind actually getting a test that isn't from the 80-90s.

>>103405584
>Refusing citizenship to illegals is a crime against humanity.

Oh please.

Remember all those illegals in Calais who were desperate to move to the UK?
And the tent camps they then occupied in Paris and other cities?
That's all becasue France doesn't support illegals. (and neither does my country, btw)

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>>103402652

>>103405309
Binary based systems have their limits which we likely won't be solving anytime soon. Problems that are not really mathematical in any sense.

>>103405839
You don't understand what welfare is in 2016. We give mudslim something so they can live in a home and eat because otherwise, they would burn the country.
If we give enough to everyone for housing, food and bills, we go Greece in one year.
If we don't give shitskin enough money, chimpout level 4.

So, no UBI here.

>>103405455
You know this will never happen.

>>103403487
If you want all that you're probably insane

>>103406042
Quantum computers, my man.

>>103406007
Yeah, Francois give them nice warm places to stay and fucking money so they shut up.
The process to get the refugee status in France is ongoing and then, nothing can stop them from being citizens.

What was your fucking point?

>>103405953

as to your point about healthcare, USA spends more than any other country and we get far less out of it, unless youre rich of course.

>>103405953
periods of wealth distribution yes, in order to rebalance the economy if it becomes too consolidated towards the top. there needs to be a delicate balance. I'm not here to sell you on marxism or communal living but no holds barred, high-octane consumer capitalism is also unsustainable for long periods of time.

>>103402681
>"Universal" basic income
>Only the unemployed will be involved in an experiment

>>103406249
What don't you understand in "Other people money"?

>>103406249
Yes, because the idea is that UBI will eventually be implemented when massive unemployment becomes an issue. It makes sense to test it on them in the first place.

>>103406058

i do understand what welfare is lol. While it is frustrating to know there are people fucking the system over, welfare also goes to people that will re-enter the job market and makes sure the french people never resort to homelessness, which is worse case scenario for a capitalist society.

>>103405845
Like I said: maybe.

I have a master degree in artificial intelligence so this is exactly up my alley.
And I'm not saying it can't be done but it's like saying all doctors specialized in cancer treatment will get fired because someone will probably find a cure for cancer.

>>103405133

I agree but the problem is that they give it to EVERYONE including people that are making 100K + a year. The problem is that the 2k a month then becomes like 2 dollars a month because everyone has it due to inflation.

That's actually why Americans are very against it because it's actually worse than the system we already have because it's only for the poor and doesn't cause inflation.

Now, if they made it for a certain income level I would totally support it.

>>103406473
Naturally not, but how many cancer doctors do you exactly need after cancer is cured?

>>103406473
What I'm really trying to say: people hugely over-estimate the state of artificial intelligence, and the pace at which it's developing.

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IT DOESN'T WORK YOU TARDS
IT'LL BE GREAT FOR A FEW MONTHS, HELL MAYBE EVEN A YEAR
BUT AFTER THAT PEOPLE WILL BE HIT WITH THE REALISATION THAT MONEY MAY BE INFINITE BUT RESOURCES AREN'T
WHAT'LL YOU DO WHEN THERE ARE 10,000,000,000 PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET AND ONLY 1,000,000,000 OF THOSE ARE ACTUALLY WORKING?
OVERPOPULATION IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN THE WORLD BY FAR AND THIS WILL SPEED IT UP BY 1,000.
PLEASE GROW A BRAIN AND TURN ANCAP BEFORE YOU DIE OF STUPIDITY

>>103406585
Hey, unless we kill ourselves or an external force does, we've got a ton of time to get to it.

>>103403037
very rude of you to call asians robots

>>103406167
isn't this the zero sum Keynesian argument? Regardless going by your statement doesn't that imply that you need to stop the ubi at some point, which is never going to happen?

>>103406407
How would this experiment be different to any other welfare gibs that has been tested million times before all around the world?

>>103406618
Communism, or something similiar. If there's only jobs for a tenth of the population, the rest are either going murderrapeloot the working population, or be subdued with peace.

>>103406715
Welfare requires jumping through a number of hoops. UBI doesn't. It gets rid of a lot of bureucracy and paperwork, but I don't know what exactly they're experimenting.

>>103406407
>massive unemployment becomes an issue
Hey, I konw, let's spend a fukilion into feeding everyone! It's not like we are short on taxmoney or anything, I am sure it will be alright.

>>103403408
2200?
Do you realize how dumb the average person is, and how easily their jobs can be replaced?
I'll give it 'til like 2040 until most jobs are out the window.

>>103406420
>makes sure the french people never resort to homelessness
And this, son, is not what welfare is, at least not in France. It is what welfare used to be.

Welfare is here to buy social peace now.

>>103406924
really wish you guys would get rid of those nukes

>>103406546

anon, inflation has already taken over in America. You notice how much it is to buy bread and milk and a gallon of gas? or the typical rent price in america? cheap debt has already caused issues for us, what we need is a definitive wage increase to stimulate demand across every sector, which in turn increases investment into said sectors, which then means people get hired due to supply shortages and high demand.

I'm not here to make fun of you but what do you think the solution to this issue is?

>>103406636
Sure, and maybe ONE DAY, in the far future we'll no longer need to work.

But people are pretending we need to implement UBI today because we're all going to lose our jobs 5 years from now.

AI has existed for 60 years now.
I would give it another 60 years to see what it can actually do, before jumping to conclusions.

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>>103405684

The problem with kensian economics is its reliance on higher taxes to create sustainable cash for the government to spend. This ultimately can negatively affect smaller businesses resulting in more lay offs or wage cuts, which takes money out of the system once again. There is a fine line to walk between functional Kensian economics and austrian economics, neither one is better, just better under different circumstances.

I believe kensian economics can be very useful, like in 2008 when australia used kensian style economics to create more jobs and introduce cash to the system via investment in infrastructure projects and schooling programs.

However, you idealy want a system that runs as efficiently as possible with as little government interference as possible to increase business intentives and competition so that you can create more jobs, and drive private investment/expansion and development.

Central planning doesnt work in the long term, it can get very complicated and its expensive to manage. Kensian economics is good, so is austrian economics, its all situational in my opinion.

>>103406902
Fine. We will continue this conversation in 2040.

>>103406843
As opposed to what? Have the people starve, take up arms and overthrow the government and the current workers? The current economical systems won't work if you can only employ a tenth of your population.

Better than giving money to a bunch of jews, that's for certain.
And even if these finns spend all that money on beer, that's the economy boosted.

>>103403296
If you earn let's say 18,000 a year but you get basic income of 12,000 a year you only really earn 6000 for working full time. It's not fucking worth it and it kills incentives for people on already low wages

>>103406691

I would say YES to your question, again balancing monetary policy to make sure no significant inflows and outflows over a long period of time but UBI will be needed when occupational automation is in full swing.

After the automation shift we have no clue what "economy" will really mean. It will be a paradigm shift larger than when the term "free market" was coined.

I have no idea what happens after that anon, I won't pretend that I do.

>>103406987
wont creating artificial demand cause a massive crash?

>>103407127
If you earn 12,000 a year through basic income and 0 through work you don't have, then who the fuck gives a damn about incentive? Robots don't care about it.

do they even know the Y=C+I+G+N equation

>>103407020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc

>>103406823
I see. What they're testing is simplified welfare system. I think you should be suspicious because if they start to divide people in the very beginning of "universal" income, normal folk will probably never get this money.
First the unemplopyed, than niggers, than single mothers and so on.

>>103402652
How i can migrate to finland?!

>>103407274
All are going to be unemployed far enough into the future. I just hope we'd drown our niggers in the sea first, or something along those lines. Dump them into Sweden, maybe.

>>103405683
> So you're just gonna put some philosophy majors in an engineering position?
Implying there are no unemployed engineers. Spoiler: there are. A ton of them. My friends are all university-educated engineers and getting jobs is not easy if you don't want to do a Ph.D.

>>103407180
wait so you are saying yes the economy is a zero sum game?

>>103407198
Who's going to fucking pay for it then retard? When people give up and just accept UBI and no longer work the rich then have to pay more taxes, which raises prices to make profit, so then UBI becomes more expensive and so on until you have hyperinflation

>>103407334

>tfw fell for the stem meme

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>>103402652
>Universal income is introduced
>Its barely enough to cover rent and food
>Mandatory deductions are taken from it to cover health care and other services
>Nothing is left.

Poor fags stay poor, rich get a little richer through lower taxes and a small money boost and a lot of public sector workers are laid off.

Useful idiots can be made to vote for anything I have realised.

>>103406987

I agree with you actually but giving everyone who is alive 2,000 dollars a month will cause inflation to skyrocket even higher. So what does that mean? That means now we have all of those poor people who originally could afford a small apartment homeless. So you'll have at least 100 million people (actual figure) that will all be homeless, hungry, and angry.

The solution is we create a UBI for everyone that makes less than 40,000 a year. Or we have to keep the old system to keep the peace. The whole reason we have welfare in America is because it's avoiding a huge revolution. It's literally the government paying everyone to shut up.

What the unlimited UBI for everyone plan does is stealthily gets rid of welfare for everyone because it makes it worthless. Obviously you haven't seen real inflation like in Denmark where 100 Kroner buys you a magazine.

Anon, you haven't even seen real inflation. Go to Denmark.

Also, Americans already know everything I just said.

>>103407181

It could if its not properly implemented. I don't see any other economic crashes happening in developed countries that employ an inflation-tied minimum wage.

But your underlying sentiment, that an increase alone won't fix anything is correct. We desperately need to break the investment bank stranglehold and debt trading markets that are mechanisms of capital extraction from the middle and lower classes. Not only that, but we need a true, first class, public infrastructure. DoL(department of labor) shows projections for every $1 spent on infrastructure would return around $17 dollars.

There are many many things ailing the united states economy and by default the rest of the world. This is a long conversation with many nuanced topics anon, I will have it with you if you can agree to no obvious bait posting.

>>103407381
>Who's going to fucking pay for it then retard?
State socialism.
> the rich then have to pay more taxes, which raises prices to make profit
Compensated slightly by not having to pay wages.
>so then UBI becomes more expensive and so on until you have hyperinflation
Yeah, if you keep private ownership of the means of production. The system is going to collapse anyway and since shit fundamentally doesn't work when there's no jobs, the people are going to try to take over.

>>103407334
Don't take it so literally. I'm saying the labour market isn't as flexible as it could be because the government is fucking with it. And not because the work week is too long.

>>103407607
>State socialism.
Glad you admit you're a commie. Communist economics are hands down the worst and have never worked in practice. This will be no different.
>Compensated slightly by not having to pay wages.
They will have people employed that cannot be replaced by machines, and have to keep paying them more and more in order to keep them working. Unless you replace everyone with machines and pay everyone basic income means there's just one guy getting fucking rich and paying the taxes keeping you alive.
>Yeah, if you keep private ownership of the means of production. The system is going to collapse anyway and since shit fundamentally doesn't work when there's no jobs, the people are going to try to take over.
How's that working out in Venezuela?

>>103407491
>UBI for everyone that makes less than
>U BI

What you propose is worse than what we have. If you work for 39k$ a year, you are trapped here until you can make 40+UBI.

>>103407607
>Who's going to fucking pay for it then retard?
>State
Go back to kindergarten.

>>103407990
He clearly doesn't understand that the government isn't hiding some vast infinite amount of cash somewhere and it's the evil capitalists stopping the people from having it. It is taxes from people working and businesses thriving. UBI shits all over it and will lead to massive inflation that will lead to yet another failed state

>>103407466
>public sector workers are laid off
Why should they be doing a job that doesn't need doing in the first place? Lots of govt jobs are welfare with a job attached. Show up for """work""", produce nothing of value and receive paycheck. Again, why?

>>103406823
They are trying to see if the people on it actually do the theorized actions. These include things such as:
>with not having to worry about money these people now focus on creative pursuits or education and become better people
>with education they get a very good job
>with creative pursuits they produce fine art
>alternatively they somehow start a business

>>103407274
Stop with the conspiracy bullshit. UBI is stupid as it will just result in them doing jack shit, but the objective isn't for the government to support blacks/single mothers/whatevers its a proposed solution (that probably won't work as intended) to the potential future of mass unemployment.

Honestly I'd rather there just be a worldwide ban on further autonomization of jobs, just end all the bullshit.

>>103407334
In America its just about getting internships because experience here is infinitely more important than what school, degree, PhD, etc. I've always assumed that it was similar in Europe because most employers don't want to just straight up higher inexperienced people to full time positions.

>>103407527
I'm a bit out of my depth but it seems like you are arguing for a keynesian perspective treating the UBI as a stimulus is that correct?

>>103408205
>Why should they be doing a job that doesn't need doing in the first place?

Public sector workers have a critical role as economic ballast. This is why modern economies are resistant to depression.

If you did not know this already, one has to question what value your contribution to this topic discussion is going to be.

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>>103407862
>Glad you admit you're a commie
I'm not.
>Communist economics are hands down the worst and have never worked in practice. This will be no different.
Maybe, but feel free to argue how a capitalistic free market system with 10% employment would work either. The rich would have to support all those 90% unemployed, which in turn is not beneficial to them at all. How do you solve this issue of mass-unemployment? The ones who own the means of production would be the only ones capable of consuming their own products.
>They will have people employed that cannot be replaced by machines
Give me some examples.
>and have to keep paying them more and more in order to keep them working
Oh, so 10% of people are still employed and the rest are starving in the gutters?
>Unless you replace everyone with machines and pay everyone basic income means there's just one guy getting fucking rich and paying the taxes keeping you alive.
You're making my argument for me here, mate.
>How's that working out in Venezuela?
How's that full automatization in Venezuela? Oh, you mean Venezuela is not collectively living in the far future where AI systems and robots are capable of performing all human labour for the price of electricity?

>>103407990
Say hello to communism, or one of its sister policies. How does the rich stay rich if they have to support the unemployed +90%? How do they stay rich if there are no consumers outside of that 10%? Where is this wealth coming from? Are the 10% just circulating it between themselves, whilst the 90% just sit around doing nothing, slowly dying off?
Are the people just going to sit there and accept it?

>>103408165
Neck yourself, you strawmanning faggot.

>>103407921

Ok well I was talking about U.S.A not France. I was not aware I had to develop a plan to help the entire globe haha.

My system works perfectly fine in America.

Believe me, France is one of my favorite countries and if I had enough power I'd help you too. Maybe one day I will develop a plan for France.

>>103408337
>Honestly I'd rather there just be a worldwide ban on further autonomization of jobs, just end all the bullshit.
what about laws requiring corps to lease robots from people and limits on ownership?

>>103402652
That's literally the opposite of what it should be. People who work should be ensured government-funded minimum wage (employees sue if they don't receive it, it's the employer that gets funded), but people who don't work should get nothing.

>>103402652
We already tried it in the United States, people don't go for more education, or find new work, or start business. They just stay in their section 9 housing, do drugs, never work, and just keep asking for more money.

>>103402681
So they know that the flow of money will stop after a while? Of course a lot of them will keep working if that's the case.

>>103408165
>lead to massive inflation
Inflation has more to do with money supply. You could easily say that things would actually get cheaper because with UBI minimum wage could be abolished and things could get produced cheaper improving the economy. What would actually happen though is that most likely the economy expands (producing more goods and services) and prices stay the same.

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>>103408337
>Honestly I'd rather there just be a worldwide ban on further autonomization of jobs, just end all the bullshit.
So a globalistic one world government.

>capitalist cucks think this is a bad thing

it's literally either this or communism. it's already almost impossible to get a decent job unless you were born rich, within 20 years it will be literally impossible. you either have basic income, actual communism, or everyone will be low-wage perpetually unemployed slaves to a handful of billionaires who control everything.

>>103408517
What do you mean

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>tfw I'm going to get a job and UBI will become a thing here right after my 5 year NEET spell

>>103408382
>economic ballast
>literally saying people should be digging ditches then filling them back up
Am i being trolled? I guess i am.

>>103408205
There is nothing wrong with laying off the public sector workers. Its more that people think UBI will mean they will live in a NEET paradise. They wont.

They will be poor as fuck living on UBI. The other stuff is just what makes it make economic sense.

>>103408563
>They just stay in their section 9 housing, do drugs, never work, and just keep asking for more money.
What else would they do, though? Unless they get connected to those other UBI people and are pushed into activities, they're probably not going to do them.

>>103408619
I mean instead of communism or ubi, you just make it illegal for the owners of the means of production to own robots directly. So they would have to lease them from people who otherwise would be working there.

>>103408594
>it's literally either this or communism.
Might turn into communistic policies anyway. I'm not sure the few wealthy elites that own the robots and AIs will be willing or even capable of supporting the rest of the people through UBI. State intervention is probably going to happen in one way or form.

>>103408715
What I mean is, teach a man to fish, he'll figure out how to feed himself , give a man a fish, and he'll just keep coming back to get free fish.

ubi just doesn't work, if every single person got ubi, in another way it's just a tax credit or tax break, nothing would literally change. All prices would reflect that ubi. At first sure it'll be great but within a few years all goods will reflect that ubi, and the people will be rooting for more free money.

>>103408972
>I mean instead of communism or ubi, you just make it illegal for the owners of the means of production to own robots directly. So they would have to lease them from people who otherwise would be working there.
And then you've just got two rich people instead of one. What about the rest of the workers?

>>103408704
>UBI will mean they will live in a NEET paradise
Nobody other than retarded commies would want a UBI that high. It's just a good replacement for the welfare system that wouldn't discourage employment and would help the working poor and reduce bureaucracy. Arguing against it doesn't make sense to me.

>>103408416
Resources are scarce and technology hasn't come about yet to replace all of our jobs. in America, roughly 47% of jobs can be replaced. Assuming no employment, that means 53% of people are paying for the rest of people. In a population of 319 million (2014), that's 169,070,000 people working and 149,930,000 not working. Assuming $12,000 a year for UBI as that's just the minimum amount someone can scrape by, that's 1.79 Trillion dollars, which is more than half of the Federal budget. Where is that revenue going to come from? Tax! So people who earn less suddenly earn even less as more as taken by tax, so you can expect those that earn close to $12,000 will quit so even more money will be needed and thus taxes will go up, and since resources are scarce prices will go up and inflation will to when the government has to keep printing more money. It's basic stuff mate, that automation will never solve unless we had infinite resources and infinite energy. This isn't fucking star trek

>>103408585
Money will have to be printed to stave off the debt the government will inevitably accumulate when people become reliant on UBI and the rich get fed up paying for people and paying ridiculous taxes

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>>103409009
And that's how we get some futuristic variation of (state/AI) communism. You can't teach a man to fish if there's no fish out there.

>>103409161
>roughly 47% of jobs can be replaced.
When? Now? A hundred years in the future? A thousand? Two thousand? Ten thousand? I'm talking about the entire future here, not just the immediate.
> So people who earn less suddenly earn even less as more as taken by tax, so you can expect those that earn close to $12,000 will quit so even more money will be needed and thus taxes will go up, and since resources are scarce prices will go up and inflation will to when the government has to keep printing more money.
And as I said. Some kind of bastard brand of communism. You can't support a capitalistic system with fiat money if there isn't work for people. You either ban automatization or you accept the fact that the system will collapse.
>It's basic stuff mate, that automation will never solve unless we had infinite resources and infinite energy. This isn't fucking star trek
No, but stripmining planets and building a dyson sphere around the sun will provide quite an amount of resources and power.

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>universal basic meme

get a job, hippie

>>103408972
>lease them from people who otherwise would be working there
That's called market socialism. Enjoy your reduced economic growth. Also not everybody wants to risk being bankrupt because their business venture went tits-up. A lot of people prefer lower risk but guaranteed salary. And they get compensated a lower amount. Why reduce people's freedom, reduce economic growth and not respect people's choices?

>>103408593
Suggesting a worldwide ban =/= globalistic government idiot. It would be through some treaty like a more effective Nuclear Arms Nonprofiliation, which great attention provided to cover loopholes created by countries unlikely to ratify such as banning people from going over to those countries and automizing and then selling it back.

>>103409161
I'm pretty sure most of the jobs that can't be automized (if I remember correctly its like all Engineering except like half of EE, nurses, things that require intense human interaction such as business, doctors) make significantly more than 12k or 24k for UBI even after a shitton of taxes.

>>103402652
>>103402681
If it works, good.
The fucking social welfare program is ran by shittons of USELESS bureaucrats and pencil pushers that eat up far more tax money via their government funded jobs, than the unemployed people could ever hope to do.

The sooner we prune away unnecessary bureaucracy, the better.

>universal basic income

this will fuck up their economy so hard

>>103404327
Work is the true meaning of life. I fucking hate NEETs.

>>103409517
Right now, 47% of jobs can be computerised (In America). I thought we were talking current events not some arbitrary future events, which to be fair is a reasonable prediction as technology continually improves. In a post-scarcity environment UBI will become tangible in the sense that the state has infinite resources so money becomes nonsensical and fiat money is used to ensure a fair way of distribution.

Right here in the here and now, implementing UBI in any state system is retarded

>>103406618
Tell me my genius friend, do you comprehend that there will be less and less necessary jobs that people can do in the future? Manufacturing? Automated. Public transportation? Automated. Cashiers? Even now this job exists instead of a menu only not to remove jobs, in other words it exists just so that people could work. Post? Already dying.

So much shit can and will be phased out. Meanwhile amount of people will continue to increase. What do you propose for the people who have literally 0 jobs that they can do in the future?

What exactly will run out? World economy is a fucking meme, 1% control 99% wealth, spread it around even slightly and most people don't even need to work. Very few people are actually producing anything even right now.

>>103409694
>Suggesting a worldwide ban =/= globalistic government idiot. It would be through some treaty like a more effective Nuclear Arms Nonprofiliation, which great attention provided to cover loopholes created by countries unlikely to ratify such as banning people from going over to those countries and automizing and then selling it back.
So much like a globalistic government would, you'd use force to enforce your law on any and all countries and regions that do not approve with your ban. You sound like a globalist to me.

>>103403397
retard
do you even know how capitalism works? If there wouldn't be people able to create capital, who the fuck would buy their products?
The "Elite" needs people who work to create wealth

>>103406167

This guy needs a helicopter ride. UBI is code word for communism and wont work. Soon you will run out of other people's money to redistribute, but first you're more likely to run out of food to feed anyone.

>>103409604
>get a job
Easier to get a job under a UBI system rather than welfare.

>>103409353
debt the government will inevitably accumulate
That's a different problem altogether of stopping the growth of government and runaway inflation. Also again people are more reliant on welfare inherently than UBI.

>>103409353
The rich can't be rich if no one is buying their goods or using their services because they can't afford to buy anything because automation

Great now all of the leftists will stop working. We are also going to have a influx of "poor refugee children"

>>103409819
>I thought we were talking current events not some arbitrary future events
We're talking about the future here and nobody is advocating for UBI in the current day.
>post-scarcity environment
Isn't post scarcity just a meme?

>>103409829
>do you even know how capitalism works?
It doesn't work in the scenario I'm describing. That's the point.
>If there wouldn't be people able to create capital, who the fuck would buy their products?
Which is where UBI becomes relevant. If people are unable to gain wealth through labour, they either have no wealth or are given it through the state.
>The "Elite" needs people who work to create wealth
Automatization does away with that. They no longer need people, but can replace human labour.

>>103409942
The rich can be rich if they own the means of production and just create everything they need to themselves.

>>103402925

You don't have to work now in Finland. I know it's hard to comprehend for your Amerilard brain but people still go to work even though you can live pretty comfortably on welfare in Finland.

The whole "no one will work if you can live on welfare forever" is total bullshit.

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>>103409824
Austomation is being used as a way to curb spending, so people are losing jobs and UBI isn't going to magically fix this economic problem for the way capitalism works. I advocate protectionism until we're at a point we can dig shit out of asteroids for a great return so we'll have all we need and energy production is basically bottomless

After this we can finally conquer the galaxy and purge the xenos

You know I'm right

>Captcha; select all images with pizza

>>103409846
>UBI is code word for communism
Welfare is more centralized. It's either welfare, UBI or negative income tax. Take your pick. Getting rid of social safety isn't even desirable in mess that the government caused in the first place. If the govt stops fucking up the market and voters stop trying to redistribute wealth then it's fine to stop every social safety net program.

>>103410049
>Isn't post scarcity just a meme?

Yeah, there will always be a problem of supply and demand. However it can be mitigated with superior technology. It's the only way I can envision UBI ever working

>>103409906
UBI will replace welfare. Welfare is UBI lol, it'll create more dependants and forcible redistribution of wealth

>>103408528
>people should be subsidized to watch paint dry

ok retard

>>103406902
>I'll give it 'til like 2040 until most jobs are out the window.
cool opinion you have there
I'm going to give it 2200 until we get to a point where most of the current jobs existing today could possibly be automated

>>103409604
replace slaves with automated workers and then attempt to find a flaw

>>103403154
>less people unemployed
more people working less hours only fakes less unemployment, no profit has been made as the same amount of hours has been spent by working people on work, the same pay has been given in total, and people have per capita less to spend, the economy will not do better
It also requires more educated people for the same amount of work, which is a drain on society's resources, how will you pay for this?

>>103410460
>Welfare is UBI lol
So you're just equating things that aren't the same at all. You speak like a commie when words have no meaning anymore. Don't be a commie.

>create more dependants and forcible redistribution of wealth
Highly unlikely.
http://www.bignam.org/BIG_pilot.html
>The introduction of the BIG has led to an increase in economic activity. The rate of those engaged in income-generating activities (above the age of 15) increased from 44% to 55%. Thus the BIG enabled recipients to increase their work both for pay, profit or family gain as well as self-employment.

>>103410269
>way capitalism works
Welfare, minimum wage and restrictions on labour for making contracts and training are NOT capitalism.

>>103409828
Your arguement is retarded but I'll play along

Yes it is a globalistic law that will be enforced by the countries that sign it. I am not a globalist but I recognize the fact that for some things you can't rely on individual governments to do on their own. Supporting one globalist thing does not make me a globalist, supporting globalism would make me a globalist.

>>103402652
We have basic income here. In the form of you have a family member working in the States that sends money.

It is great for those people, it really boosts the consumer economy, the malls are PACKED.

>>103410547
Yes, they should be if an employer is dumb enough to decide to clutter their workspace with such useless things. In case you didn't realize that's already the current situation anyway: people are making bank watching paint dry on account of their skin color, for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law
Enjoy and welcome to a brave new world.

>>103402681
And they still don't answer the question of who is going to pay for this.

You have a group of people who have worked insanely hard all their lives so they can get ahead, and now their hard work is taxed more and squandered on UBI for some "artist" who does nothing but draw gaping assholes and critisize them on Twitter for being successful.

>>103403642
double thinking communist bullshit

>>103409824
>spread it around even slightly and most people don't even need to work

Holy shit you're utterly retarded. Do you even understand what 'wealth' is? Most of the wealth is nothing but digits on your bank account.

There is a thing called scarcity of resources. Just by spreading some 'wealth' you'll create nothing but huge inflation.

You sound like a fucking vasemmistonuori.

Vitun vesipaa.

>>103411055
>Individuals and congregations have contributed to the fund, and support on international level has been received (Bread for the World, Lutheran World Federation, United Evangelical Mission, Evangelische Kirche im Rheinland, Evangelische Kirche von Westfalen, Friedrich Ebert Foundation etc.). The fundraising built on the Coalition's various networks and stakeholders.

People who can afford paying for people's shit decides to donate money to a thousand people in Namibia. Of course poverty will improve for people on the receiving end, when it's only a 1000 people been giving money so they can spend it on whatever they wish

What a fucking useless study

>So you're just equating things that aren't the same at all. You speak like a commie when words have no meaning anymore. Don't be a commie.
UBI replaces welfare and fuck you I'm not a commie

>way capitalism works
Welfare, minimum wage and restrictions on labour for making contracts and training are NOT capitalism.

And no true Capitalist system exists, there are caveats and regulations that exist in every developed country. Thanks for pointing out the fucking obvious, though

>>103402652
can i apply for it?

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DUDE FREE MONEY

>>103402681
>randomly
sure

>>103411726
How would a super smart AI improve technology when the primary driver behind tech is experimentation and discovery?

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>>103411961
wrong pic

>>103412066
>Improve to make new experiments and discoveries

>>103403904
Everybody now has $2000. Place you're renting knows this. Rents go up.

Everybody now has $2000. Grocery stores know this. Food prices go up.

etc.

It. Does. Not. Work.

>>103412146
it being super smart isn't going to make a new cern appear much faster though

>>103411307
Oh yeah, and everything is more expensive because of it, houses, cars, food, etc.

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>>103402652
I was born too fucking early.

I too wanted to grow up with basic income, being the ultimate NEET and just read/travel every day

>>103411888
Read my post again economic mastermind. Less jobs for people, because machines do it for free and better == ???

What do YOU think wealth is? Same end product is gained with less or no people. What is preventing UI in this case? Give me a single fucking thing that will suffer from "scarcity of resources" with UI.

Pro tip: You can't.

>>103412266
Why wouldn't it?
>Build faster
>Think faster
>Create faster
>Analyse big data faster
Efficiency

>>103411925
>fuck you I'm not a commie
Then stop being retarded like one and don't say UBI is the same as welfare when it's not.

>People who can afford paying for people's shit
Who payed for it is beside the point. In fact it's even better for my argument that it doesn't discourage working when the economy receives outside aid and then the working population INCREASES. I love how you just ignored this part. You're being retarded at this point.

>>103403202
>just like the tractor will make farmers obsolete

>implying farmers pulled the plow
how many horses do you see plowing fields these days anon?

>The luddites were not competely wrong.
>Our economic structures are based on consumerism. I produce something and am compensated for that production. I use my compensation to purchase the production of others. Others use their compensation to purchase my production. Whether I make shoes, flip burgers, manage others, manage others money, or if I’m one of the few I manage my own money but in some way there is production. Until recently the major source of production was labor. It is egalitarian in that almost everyone is born capable of labor. Technological innovation and invention have reduced the amount of human labor necessary for production. Human muscle power was replaced first by animal and now by machine. Machines today far exceed the human capacity for strength, dexterity, endurance, accuracy and precision. The missing piece in the doom of the value of human labor is AI. Elon Musk thinks it's dangerous to society and this is one reason why. It's not skynet you need to worry about it's that when AI truly arrives it will make human labor worthless. The subsequent social upheaval will not be pleasant for some. Labor's value is decreasing at an accelerating pace. This is causing problems we all see.
>When labor becomes worthless as it soon will, what will happen to society? When the only way to achieve compensation is to already own capital what will happen to the great majority of the population that own nothing of value?

They'll sustain themselves off of meme magic. It's a fail proof plan.

>>103402652
>must be jobless
It's like they want it to fail

>>103404481
it would cost more than what you already pay in current welfare, again where does the money will come from?

>>103410998
>who will improve and maintain the robotics
the slaves

>>103413178
magic, duh

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>>103402652
Hello there Finland, gibs monies.

>>103404599
you know what to do. burdening society is extremely selfish.

>>103402652
Neets and other retards get around 420e+rent+electricity+drugs per month already. It's basically a trial to make our heavy bureaucracy lighter.

>>103413465
So muslims get double that, right?

>>103413557
Well, they do get everything you need for "a normal life" like phones, computers, furniture, washing machines, microwaves etc. so kind of yes I guess.

>>103410197
Because Finland is mostly white (for now).
Muslims, niggers and other "multi-culturally blessed" people have no sense of shame, barely take any pride in accomplishing anything by themselves and will be perfectly happy being pampered by the state while doing jackshit for their entire life. The only effort they will ever do in that society is getting violent if the state doesn't keep increasing the amount of free stuff they "deserve".
In a purely "white" country, the amount of slackers and leech will probably be low enough to make such system globally worse it. In a multi-culturally enriched society, you are just going to coup-de-grace what's left of your economy and empty your state's finance in record time.

>>103412381
I did say it would be somewhat faster, but it's still bottle necked by building times for the apparatus.

Hopefully Russia conquers their little socialist faggot country.

>>103413718
You should only give them the luxuries they would have in their own country, so basically a mud hut.

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>>103402652

Fucking commies, stop ruining our country. It will never work. It didn't work in the 60s, it won't work now. How can people be so fucking retarded? It will either be totally unsustainable, or the given money will not be enough to warrant anything, which will just lead back to the welfare state bullshit in the end.

>>103403118
Because they get less money than they would get from welfare.
Instead of getting 700e / month you would get 500e. It forces you to find a job.

>>103413760
>empty your state's finance in record time.

no no
you just print more money
in a state that print endless money, the rich people, those that actually cares to work and invest, will be richer year by year; all those that refuse to work will be always dirty poor and psyched by the idea that the state will stop giving free money "at some point"; those in the middle class will fix robots, streets pavements, internet cables and those sort of stuff

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>>103414240

Onko Suomessa vai ollut joku perustulokokeilu 60-luvullaki?

>>103414756
Hello, Robert Mugabe.

>>103403397
Shit I've worked with tractors that let me get out, walk along side it to fix a piece of equipment, while the thing is driving and turning on its own. It's already here.

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>>103403118

The most fundamental idea is to remove welfare traps. Here's an example.
>Get 700e a month in benefits
>Get a job that pays 800e a month
>Lose all your benefits
>Decide to just stay home instead, because 100e extra a month is not worth it.

But with basic income
>Get 600e a month in basic income
>Get a part-time job offer, pays 600e a month
>Take it.
>You get to keep your basic income as well (although it counts as a part of your taxable income).

In places where it's been tested, basic income has also increased entrepreneurship and start-ups, because it's less risky.

>>103416543

varmaan viittaa siihen että ennen 90-lukua sossutukea ja työttömyysturvaa sai nostella rankalla kädellä ilman mitään pelkoa pakkotyöllistämisestä

>>103417194
600 a month, all other kind of help deleted including housing, I am for.

Fucking UBI fag ask for 2 grands a month.

>>103403202

>Through the use of technology, each farmer is able to feed 155 people today, compared to 1940, when one farmer could feed only 19 people.

Those other farmers became obsolete. Fortunately they got other jobs, but the difference upcoming is that there won't BE other jobs because we aren't replacing farmers, we are replacing human dexterity and brainpower itself.

>>103402652
war will absolve you from this commitment Finland.

>>103403799
>>103404000
>>103411012
Just the same, wouldn't this mean that upping the workweek to 50 hours would be beneficial?

>>103403164
>creative
>NEET
hahahahaha

>>103407127
Then you earn 12 000+18 000=30 000e

>>103405220
Tää

>>103417194
Might as well use negative income tax.

>earn €3000, taxable income of €0
>no tax levied, no tax returned
>total = €3000

>earn €1000, taxable income of -€2000
>at negative income tax rate of 50%, receive €1000
>total = €2000

>work harder
>earn €1500, taxable income of -€1500
>same rate, receive €750
>total = €2250

This way the gouvernment does not get in the way of spending liberties, doesn't need a department handling the UBI since it can be done by a Ti-86 calculator, and it is far more flexible than UBI's arbitrary gouvernment-dictated figure.

It's the best compromise.

>>103419145
And how long do you think people will stand for their taxes supporting people who need absolutely no support? It'd be like the Monopoly man going to church for dinner every night. Not before long, people will clamour for the gouvernment to implement a cut-off point where they say the recipient can't have any basic income anymore due to sufficient income, and they will do it.

We have that system here for people on autismbux, you can earn up to X amount before they start scaling down the benefits and it takes several hundreds of euros before you get out of the breakeven point.
Great way to prevent people from trying.

>>103419067
Depends what you mean by beneficial. The economy would likely grow faster. But people could get overworked and their happiness reduced. So if more stuff is worth the reduced free time to you then yes.

In large part Germany gets so many workers from all of EU because their productivity is so high but the money supply grows at the same pace as the rest of the countries. So less productive countries lose productive workers because the Euro is expensive there but in Germany it's the opposite. The money is cheap and it attracts labour from all of EU.

>>103419599
>doesn't need a department handling the UBI
It would need more workers than UBI to check on incomes. Whereas UBI is just writing a bunch of checks every month. It could literally be entirely automated. It was mostly Friedman's idea of keeping more money in the hands of more productive people (which I don't have a problem with). I don't think it would have as much popularity as UBI but I could be wrong.