So what do we do about this? https://www.doi.gov/pressrelea

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>>1009146
I'm only close to one of the protected areas but I hope they don't allow anything weird to happen to it.

>>1009146
>>1009152
The only reason most of these things are dropped is so that corporations, who lobbied for it, get the resources under/on them. That's anything from trees to oil and gas to a valley just right for damming up and using for fracking water later on.

Fanfuckingtastic.Sell them off to the public so the government parasites won't destroy them

>>1009241
>people actually believe this

>>1009262
People who acknowledge reality do so fuck off back to high school kiddo

>>1009241
Delusion

>>1009277
>Be extremely edgy
>Tell people to fuck back off to Highschool

How's middle school treating you kiddo?

>>1009241
The corporations that will buy up these lands will be way harder on them than the government

Next your going to post an image of a river accidentally flooded with mine run-off by the EPA

>>1009277
Provide an example where selling conservation/preservation land to the public has resulted in better land stewardship.

I know Americans are brainwashed to believe "freewheeling" capitalism (as if their form of capitalism doesn't rely on taxpayer subsidies..) is the best, but this is absurd.

>>1009146
this might have something to do with that midnight landgrab Obongo pulled.
fucking nigger claimed 1.5 million acres of Utah state land as a "national monument"
theres maybe a few hundred acres of actual Historical archaeological sites whatever, the rest of the million and a half acres is fucking flat land and sage brush.
nobody in the whole state agreed with it. the entire state of Utah was against it. Obongo basically says fuck you i dont care what you want.

yeah, fuck you too nigger. and the rest of you faggots should unplug yourselfs form the progressive liberal agenda propaganda and try and think for your god damned selfs for once.

>>1009226
you're an idiot

>>1009146
>So what do we do about this?
So, Antifa thread?

fucking kill yourself. clueless fucking idiot

>>1009241
>Be government parasite managing federal land
>Exclude cattle and wild horses. Cut down juniper. Plant native grasses and forbs. Do controlled burns.
>Sage Grouse doing pretty good on the property compared to everywhere else
>Lots of pronghorn and mountain goat
>Lots of predators attracted to the area due to high population of prey species
>Community loves the refuge because they all can come hunt and fish and enjoy the land

Guess I'm just fucking everything up

>>1009418
National monuments are created from existing federal land. There's no "land grab." It's just a transfer from BLM to the National Parks Service

>>1009424
>a transfer from BLM to the National Parks Service

yeah which is basically saying no public access.
we will build you a couple miles of trails here. and then we wont maintain it so it will have to be closed, sorry fuck you citizen.

the feds already have too many parks they dont have the budget to maintain anyway.
they just want to control more land and force people to saty inside city limits where they are easy to monitor and control. and the fed park service is a bunch of nazi cunts they should all die

>>1009428
Lol

>>1009428
Aww, were the rangers mean to you princess? Did they not let you cut down a stand of trees so you could play bushcrafter 20 feet from the road? I'm sorry sweetie, I know it's rough having a pussy.

>>1009423
A private contractor could accomplish that in a year and do it right and be gone whereas your welfare and conferences and 4X4s goes on forever

>>1009418
kys

>>1009449
>a year
Land management requires a long view and long time periods. Shit takes time to grow.

>>1009432
>t. Statist cuck

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>>1009418
lol is this you?

>>1009449
So what you're saying is you know nothing about land management? Got it.

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>>1009675
I think I've read your opinion before

>>1009763
Am I supposed to be Wade or Andy? Because neither of those are my names.

Also:
>Normiebook

>>1010195
>scoreboard bro...scoreboard

ITT:
>take your pick goyim, (((corporations))) or (((government)))! these are your only options heheh

>>1009146
https://youtu.be/6gfPaTLjCNs

Link related.

Fuck the Government.

fuck nature, who needs it?
all I ever wanted to do was take a nice hike through a factory complex anyways

>>1010209
NOT SO CIVIL RACE WAR ALWAYS, NIMBY CLANS SUPER MELEE
THE /out/ TERRIROTIES WILL BE FERTILIZED WITH THE BLOOD OF THE TRIBES

>>1009226
It's going to be a massive rape

>>1009546
>t. Butthurt faggot who knows I'm right

>>1010209
tfw this man actually supports trump, leader of trump corporation and our government

>spend life savings, after working for 40 years on some land I intend to retire and die on
>rare earth worm is found 5 states away
>due to endangered species act(they really just want my land) they're able to declare my land as a natural habitat to mr.rare earth worm that isnt even on my land
>seize my land for free
>they wait patiently for mr.rare earth worm to crawl 5 states over to his new home :^)
>I paid taxes my whole life and am now left with nothing
>realize the Government's "conservation" is conditional, and WHENEVER it's no longer convenient for them to "protect" that land, they'd scorch that earth to nothing for whatever reason they felt fit
>rules only apply to citizens, not the Government
>legalized theft
>many such cases

FUCK THE FEDS.

>>1010498
This post is irrefutable proof that trumptards have brain damage

>>1010506
>implying this hasn't literally happened to thousands of people

Keep turning a blind eye.

>>1010509
Give one example.

>>1010509
I just spent 15 minutes trying to google a single instance of this happening, and couldn't find a single one.

I looked up the Endangered Species Act, and it specifies that Critical Habitat's only affect federal agency actions or federally funded or permitted activities. It explicitly does not affect land ownership.

Good bait though 8/10 got me mad

>>1010518
See
>>1010212

Fucking moron.

Also check out "forever wild" land in Alabama. After land is logged you essentially have to outbid the state instead of other citizens. This makes it nearly impossible for ANY citizen to buy ANY land in the entire state.


Also, maybe you just seriously suck at google searches? There are thousands of land seizures without compensation every single year.

>>1010523
>also very bad at reading legislation

>>1010527
Sec. 5 (a) of endangered species act:

(1) shall utilize the land acquisition and other authority under the Fish and
Wildlife Act of 1956, as amended, the Fish and Wildlife Coordination Act, as
amended, and the Migratory Bird Conservation Act, as appropriate; and
(2) is authorized to acquire by purchase, donation, or otherwise, lands, waters,
or interests therein, and such authority shall be in addition to any other
land acquisition authority vested in him.

Land acquisition, as defined in the fish and wildlife act, specifically refers to purchasing of land, not eminent domain.

>>1010527
Also,

>Citing a video from a fox news columnist

>>1010538
>>1010540
Firstly, eminent domain pays "fair value", which is just their guys going through and undervaluing it to 10% of actual value and telling you to deal with it. You will get more from an eminent domain seizure than from the endangered species act.

Secondly, you literally just quoted how they can seize the land without paying for it. They declare a "special interest" and don't have to make any sort of purchase. Apparently you can't read.

Thirdly, all you have to do is learn how to properly use a search engine and you can find thousands, yes thousands, of examples of this legalized theft being utilized against private land owners.

Fourth
>implying the fox news guy matters at all, just research the man the story is about, but yet again, you've no idea how to dig for information

Fifth, you're arguing that something that's proven to occur doesn't actually occur. This means that you're dumb.

>>1009353
>insults someone for doing something
>proceeds to do the exact same thing
"No, y-you!"

>>1010564
I really am trying to find more to prove your point, could you link me some more stories?

Everything I read on these bills, including all the summaries, indicate they only buy land (willingly) from land owners.

From my digging, I have found these are the main complaints against the bill:
- Landowners can be fined up to $100,000 or jailed for killing a protected animal
- Regulations are imposed on the land that make certain uses (Lumber, farming, etc.) too expensive to be feasable.
- Landowners receive zero compensation for the loss of value in their land due to the regulations
- ESA regulation extends to potential habitats, lands currently unoccupied by that species.

So it sounds like the regulations put on the land are devaluing it, and the owners are receiving no compensation for it. Land is NOT being taken from them.

I do agree, however, that the land owners should be compensated for the loss in value of their land.

So it sounds like the bill needs some work to protect property rights. However, saying "Thousands of people's lands are being seized" is pretty incorrect.

As far as eminent domain goes, that is a completely different matter and out of the scope of this argument.

>>1010758
http://www.epi-us.com/problems_esa.pdf

Imagine this. You're working your land, it gets devalued by the ESA to 5% of value. Once land is seized they discover that you've farmed a section or cut some trees down. You are then fined an inordinate amount. In this situation, which is extremely plausible due to the way people are inclined to use their land that in fact, you'll end up owing the Government money, regardless of what they originally paid off to you. This could be more than the original value of the land itself. If you're unable to pay these fines, you'll go to prison.

With loop holes like this, they can effectively jail and permanently in-debt people just for being present on the land in the first place. This is worse than simply taking it.

People in Government are also outright rewarded for creating extra funding for the Government, therefore corruption like this is encouraged.

>>1010480
>who knows I'm right
no. i do know that you sound like a progressive libtard SJW bootlicking liberal arts major college retard

>>1010827
You should stop going to /pol/, your entire vocabulary is buzzwords.

>epi-us.com
From their about page:

Environmental Perspectives, Inc. is an educational-research organization. Since 1992, our purpose has been to sound a warning to America and the Christian Church of serious threats to our freedom.

EPI provides articles, books, videos, maps, lectures and other media to help citizens across America to understand and develop solutions to specific issues which threaten our Constitution and our way of life in America; threats which include insidious property rights infringements, as well as attacks on our freedom to worship as we please.

The effort on the part of the international community to create a world government and religion has far reaching implications. Our goal is to help people understand the consequences to them and our nation if our politics are driven by a belief that big government is the answer to everything and that nature is god and humans are destroying it.

Dr. Coffman, the founder of Environmental Perspectives, has written several books: Environmentalism, The Dawn of Aquarius or the Twilight of a New Dark Age; Saviors of the Earth, the Politics and Religion of the Environmental Movement; The Birth of World Government; Dreamkillers, Abuse of Regulatory Eminent Domain. His latest books which are getting rave reviews are: Radical Isalm In the House, Plundered, as well as Rescuing a Broken America.

>>1010856
Dreamkillers, is a fast-paced novel that provides the horrifying saga of how a town in Maine savaged a sick widow in order to take her land by using smart growth regulations. Saviors of the Earth has not only helped America understand the dangers of the environmental movement, but has been instrumental in helping many conservatives in Congress to understand ongoing global events. The information in Saviors of the Earth even provided the basis for stopping the ratification of the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity. EPI has also produced several videos, the most recent being Global Warming or Global Governance. In this DVD, dozens of leading climate scientists explain why it is highly unlikely that man is causing global warming, and the scare tactics are designed to allow international regulation of our economy. Global Warming, Emerging Science and Understanding is our most recent DVD. It has received wide acclaim for being the most powerful, easy to understand DVD available explaining that science now shows that man literally cannot be causing global warming.

Jesus fuck anon, I'm dying of laughter.

>>1010858
>>1010856
And how exactly does this pertain to the pdf file about the endangered species act?

>>1010862
You cited a conspiracy website. Get a better source.

>>1009391
Then form your own 503corp, raise capital from other like minded anon's and fuck yourself on back to Walden.

>>1009428
I am interested in your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

>>1010877
>incapable of reading and determining information for yourself

They stated nothing incorrect if you actually read it. Their other opinions on other topics are irrelevant.

>>1009290
>>1009262
>>1009391

If the places are so shitty a private company can't make profit off of tourism, or sacred enough for a private entity or group of people to buy it to preserve does it really need to exist?

Come on fucking hippies

>>1010518
Forty acres less than 2 miles away, no development allowed because endangered clubmoss. Same owner who bought it 20 years ago holding out until the laws change, someone wants to keep horses on it, or you, Anon, pony up 160k and buy I from her. If you want to get petty, I'll look up the PP# and post.

Oh, and another thing, section 404 of the Lean Water Act has been taking land from property owners for 40 years. If that piece of Draconian legislation is ever repealed, I may be out of a job but it will be the greatest day of my life.

Rapanos was a modern day hero.

>>1010564
>Fair value
Land that will remain burdened by property tax, subject to seizure, and cannot be used for economic gain is...
W O R T H L E S S

>>1010909
>Lean Water Act
Clean Water Act.
You know what I meant, you asshole.

>>1010911
>this is what bootlickers actually believe

>>1010905
>Incapable of finding legitimate sources

Keep trying

>>1010920
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/st303.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi77IOPzeHTAhVP9WMKHS5aC_cQFggeMAE&usg=AFQjCNFACGSD4ZY-Io40cCgkIJYAIGREbA&sig2=VsqDdBJY2-hcclYY_YUG6A


It seriously isn't difficult to find anything.

Have you ever considered being less of a cocksucker?

>>1010907
>national monuments are shitty because I'm a T R U M P F A G

>>1010922
>>1010920
Fyi says the same things as that "conspiracy site"

Hmmmmm could they perhaps have had good information?

You seem to lack the common sense to determine the reality of information for yourself.

>>1010919
RONG
That is what mature, successful, independent, contributing members of a productive society have experience with being true.

>>1010928
>implying monetizing every facet of our society including the dirt beneath your feet isnt the reason society will collapse

Nothing is sacred. Some people live on land because they find it to be beautiful. Most people, actually.

>>1010763
You literally can't go to prison for being in debt to the federal government. You can go to jail for missing a shitload of Court hearings and ignoring all the judgements made against you.

>>1010932
Incorrect. When the fines are a result of something they deem as a crime, which is the case with most environmental laws you can certainly go to prison.

>>1010498
yeah except this never happens you fucking sperg

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>>1009428

>>1010945
Yeah but it does
>>1010212

>>1010212
>>1010955
There's an ecologically important species that the landowner is planning on destroying. I don't see what's wrong.

>>1010972
It doesnt even live in that state.

Did you watch the video?

Here's part of that document from the National Center for Policy Analysis:

The ESA’s punitive nature also helps explain the Act’s sorry record conserving species. Propo- nents of the ESA cite species that have recovered due to the Act. Yet, almost invariably these claims are untrue or exaggerated. For example, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service of cially claims 46 delisted spe- cies — 19 due to recovery, 17 due to data error, 9 due to extinction and one due to partial recovery/data error. In reality, the delistings were due to the following:
l Twenty-seven species have been removed due to data error — including the American alliga- tor, which was delisted soon after its initial listing because it was found to be abundant, clearly indicating it was never endangered and was improperly surveyed.
l Nine species were determined to be extinct.
l Five species were delisted due primarily to factors unrelated to the ESA, including the ban on
the pesticide DDT.
l Five species were delisted for a variety of other reasons including: private conservation; state, not federal, conservation efforts; and recovery despite harm done by the ESA.

The author's source for this claim is "his own calculations" which basically means he pulls it out of his ass.

Since he doesn't really describe why he calculated it that way, nor does he adequately explain why he thinks that recovery due to joint protections from the DDT ban and the ESA don't count. Im going to call bullshit.

>>1010930
>Some people live on land because they find it to be beautiful. Most people, actually.
You poor, delusional, urban child. Most people choose land that can provide a living. Much to the chagrin of your beloved Leviathan. Because the coastal elites can't have the hoi-paloi being self sufficient. They might get uppity.

>>1010983
At this point just do your own research. You're being absolutely pedantic.
>>1010984
No. You can't equate people talking about the percieved value of their land with their passion of that land.

>>1010974
Yeah I did and I'm familiar with the way the USFWS operates, and I've actually read the fucking report by the USFWS. This isn't some poor old man, this is a real estate developer worth millions of dollars who can't develop his land because it's sensitive habitat on which they plan to reintroduce the frog. It's easy to use snark and go "LMAO FROG OUT OF STATE!" without fully understanding the situation.

From the report:

"However, critical habitat protection would only apply in cases
where a Federal action, such as Federal funding or a Federal permit, is
associated with the potential destruction of dusky gopher frog critical habitat."

In other words, this property is being bulldozed.

>>1010983
And just for shits and giggles here's an American bird conservancy report

https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ESA-Report-2016-FINAL.pdf

>>1010991
If you're going to use shitty materials, don't complain when someone points out that they're shitty.

>>1011001
>being bulldozed
>frog doesnt live there


At which point will they simply declare made up species as inhabitants of whatever land they want a discount on? The law is written too poorly.

>>1011006
>implying you can't be pedantic about literally anything ever

Still being pedantic I see.

>>1011010
Dude I agree the law should be reformed, I'm just arguing to provide a counterpoint to the retards who think it's completely obsolete. For a species to be listed as endangered, they have to map out it's historical and current range and do a whole fuckload of research on suitable habitats. They compile this data, and anytime somebody pulls a permit to develop on that habitat, the USFWS comes out and gives the the rundown on how they have to develop in order to be compliant. In other words, little poor Joe Landowner isn't getting his land bought and sold because a turtle lived there once, but Tom Land-mogul who wants to pave over critical habitat that may be key in saving a species won't get to develop his land without making concessions. It's actually pretty simple. Full report below.

https://www.fws.gov/southeast//pdf/five-year-reviews/dusky-gopher-frog.pdf

>>1011011
>I want to be able to use poorly sourced and poorly thought out arguments! If you don't let me than you're just being pedantic!

Cry more bitch nigga

>>1011015
I'll concede with you on this.

I will contend that even the Land-Mogul should be able to counteroffer the Government under supervision of a civil court to prevent any fuckery from either side.

I do love nature, but every 13,000 years or so earth loses between 25% and 75% of all species due to astrological events. So, in my opinion humans aren't shit at all. So we should do our best to preserve freedoms that are very rare to most of the world.

I like your breakdown of this. The law should be re-written.

>>1011018
You just decided they were poor sources.
That's up to you. It doesn't matter what source I provided, you WILL be a dipshit about it. Just read the law itself. It has obvious flaws.

>>1011021
I pointed out why it was a poor source in the case of the National Policy paper, but instead of having a discussion about that, you've started to throw a hissy fit.

>>1011030
Okay that's fine. I've been beligerant. You're right. I provided two of my sources. Now provide sources you have to the contrary. Or as I suggested, read the law and imagine the clear flaws within it.

>>1011020
Given you like nature I assume you're of the same general philosophy as myself and a whole slew of others. The law is written as if Hitler himself wrote it in that there's no flexibility at all. A lot of proponents for reform agree with the objective of the act, but wish there was more room for experimentation for rehabilitating species.

>>1011033
Nah, you're an asshole.

But thanks for the apology.

>>1011034
Absolutely.
>>1011037
Bitch ass fucker.

>>1010923
not an arguement

>>1010991
> passion =/= value
> Letting emotion override logic
Argument disregarded

>>1011514

>argument disregarded

You're arguing your opinion as if it's the world's.

>>1011533
No. I have learned, after years of applying and debating environmental law professionally, that not everyone shares the same opinion. I also know what the law says, what it means, and how it is enforced.

I am arguing facts. You are arguing emotions. In your last post, I begin to see your point of view
>Everyone has emotions
Yes, Anon, they do
>not everyone has the facts
Again you are correct
>So emotions win over facts

I just got a phone call from a client that prompted this post. My client has to make a choice. He has to let property he has owned for over 50 years sit fallow, or pay a $75,000 frog tax to buy "mitigation credits" to keep his land from being condemned and taken.

I know the law and how it is applied. The only hope is that others can see it (without the venomous belief that landowners are inherently evil) and see the legislation's injustice and lack of effectiveness as it strips property rights without due process.

>>1011649
Listen, you're just communicating poorly.

You called me naive because I said that people buy land because it's aesthetically pleasing to them.

You then attempted to claim that every human on the face of the Earth purchases land solely for it's potential value. You know this isn't true.

IF you had said that it's quite common for people to attempt to make the best investment possible in addition to aesthetics I would have agreed with you.

People buy land for more than just one purpose.

I suggest you stop trying to say this is black and white.

>>1011655
Nice manipulation attempt. I read each of your posts and they are wonderful counterpoint to your previous post.
I have no problem with people buying land for whatever purpose they desire. Where the injustice lies is in people like you telling me that I should no longer be able to enjoy MY land as I desire, zoning, blight, public health and safety violations notwithstanding. And these restrictions you propose which amount to a taking, are based on how YOU feel.
Just out of curiosity, Anon, how many acres do you own, manage, or represent annually?

>>1011732
No manipulation at all please don't misunderstand me whatsoever.

Please quote where you believe I am inconsistent and I will address it appropriately.

I'm glad you don't care how people decide to enjoy their land. Don't chastise me for wanting land solely for the view. Your elitism on wealth is irrelevant to me. I also don't care how immature you believe that to be, because my finances fully allow for my lifestyle.

It's not exactly your business on the status of my land ownership as you would simply attempt to use it to make statements against me, because for whatever reason you seriously want to be a dick. iirc it's 40 acres with a nice creek and two wonderful hills, that's all the details I'll give you.

>>1011732
>>1011753
Also, I am FOR the revision of the Endangered Species Act. Perhaps you have confused me for somebody else.

Ryan Zinke has posted an OP-ed about this in which he claims that "land can be put back in better condition after it is used" and that his navy seal training means that he knows that extracting energy in the US is more green. He also called the coal deposits in Grand Staircase Escalante "clean" and compares Trump to Teddy Roosevelt.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/1/an-america-first-energy-policy-holds-3-powerful-be/

The mental patients control the asylum.

>>1011975
The thing about coal is it does make the air quality bad in the area that the plants exist however the by-products are completely naturally occuring and do re-settle relatively quickly into the ecosystem.

>>1011983
China is coal powered (they're making changes) and their air quality is constantly shit.

>>1011983
Yes and you end up eating it.
I love the increased mercury and lead in my fish and birds.

>>1012020
Coal is probably 5% responsible for their pollution. Those fuckers are dirty bastards.


>>1012228
iirc coal purifies water