This kills the 3 series, c class, A4, pretty much everything

But why?

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>>17622928

LOOKS SO FUCKING DUMB WITH NO GRILL

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HAHAHAHAHA

>>17622928
>This kills the 3 series, c class, A4, pretty much everything in the segment
No, it doesn't. It's interesting, and it will be a great virtue signal to your neighbors. The interior does not compare to any of the Germans.

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>>17622928
>power seats are part of the $5000 option package

Hmm

Maybe I should just buy an e39 M5

/o/ will convince themselves to hate anything electric on principle.

I'm just excited that finally an electric car has been designed for driving characteristics beyond getting from point A to point B or pure acceleration. Despite what /o/ believes electric has arbitrarily more potential in all metrics than gas, it just hasn't been tapped at the OEM level yet.

>At speed, it gains a laser-alertness I haven’t encountered before. By happenstance, associate road test editor Erick Ayapana had penciled me into a 2.0-liter Alfa Romeo Giulia to get here, and it feels like a wet sponge by comparison.

>>17622928

Watched the live event and watched some of the press release vids. I am genuinely disappointed in this car. It seems very basic. Everything from the design to the interior to the general amenities (2WD only until next year, probably at a higher price, no model S tier performance, ugly as sin exterior, tiny ass wheels, etc...) Literally looks like a 5 year old Mazda2.

On the bright side, I guess it works well a bare bones economy car that will safely get you from Point A to Point B, but it feels like they just threw a broad net in an effort to grab as much money as possible and it's obviously reflected in the quality of the product.

interior design by Fisher Price and Playskool.

>>17623228
I love the design and interior. Fuck off and get back in your corolla with every bit of interior covered in buttons.

>>17623247
The aesthetic sense of /o/ comes from being literal 3 year olds. If you don't give them a bunch of buttons and knobs to amuse themselves they get bored and start crying.

>>17623255
This +1

>>17623247
>>17623255
>>17623285
Look at this Tesla shill samefagging

>>17623363
t. autistic manchild

>>17622928
until you need to take a long road trip

enjoy the lines at the supercharging station

>>17623196
holy fuck this
why do tesla 'tech savvy' fags act like this is the lap of luxury

it is aids

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The age of ice is over

>>17623378
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
DELETE THIS IMMEDIATELY

>>17623378
>Tesla
>Luxury
Kek

>>17623225
>Despite what /o/ believes electric has arbitrarily more potential in all metrics than gas
Except weight, which is fundemental in vehicle dynamics.

>>17623363
>17 posters 16 replies
sure m7.

Nobody ever comes up with actual problems then complains about shills. >>17623370
is an actual problem. "I don't have a bunch of extraneous bullshit occluding my vision so I can enjoy my hand's width of forward visibility like a modern car should" is not an actual problem

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>>17623378

THIS CANNOT BE HAPPENING

WHERE DID IT ALL GO SO WRONG FELLOW COMBUSTION BROS

>I HAVE NO MOUTH AND I MUST SCREAM

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>>17622928
Hurrrrrr durrrrrr

>>17623247
>I love the design and interior.
>I
Subjective, so not an argument.

>>17623378
>Model S
>A6
Those aren't fullsize luxury cars. They lack the wheelbase, length and equipment level of the A8/S/7er.

You should compare them both to the 5er or E-class (although both of those are much better equipped), the latter of which sold just under 24000 vehicles in H1. Hell, it sold a hair under 12K in Q1 alone.

>>17623391
YES WE ALL KNOW ELECTRICITY WEIGHS SO MUCH AND GAS IS WEIGHTLESS

OH WAIT NEVERMIND IM ACTUALLY A HUGE FUCKING RETARD

>>17623423
Pound for pound, gas contains way more energy than any battery available today.
It might change in the future, but right now that's the reality.

>>17623391
Elon said they focused on the weight. I think the Mod3 will end up being only slightly above average weight for its class. Where the real potential lies there though is battery improvements are constant and incremental. Recently saw a build where a guy converted an exige, doubled the power and kept decent range without increasing the weight by very much. That was unthinkable not long ago, the original Tesla roadster was a similar concept but was a boat in comparison.

In 10 years the weight comparison will be completely flipped and everyone will wonder why people still drive pigfat gas cars when two electric motors and a solid state graphene biopolymer hypercapacitor provides 10x the power with the same range at a third the weight.

>>17623423
The boundary between light and heavy cars is 3000lbs. The piggest pigfat of all pigfat cars to ever pigfat (Dodge Challenger) is just over 4500lbs, and is heavily critisized for being, well, pigfat. In P100D trim, a Model S is a hair under 5000lbs.

Electric consumer cars are pigfat.

average price of a new car is 33k in the US. the standard model @ 35k will be plenty popular. I'll probably get a used one in a few years.

>>17623440
Keep sucking Elon's dick then. The new Model 3 weighs 3800lbs. It competes with the 3er/A4/C0class, yet it weighs more than a base 5er.

>anecdotal evidence
Sure boy, that's ready for mass production. And those batteries were probably cheap enough that consumers can actually afford them. Oh, wait.

>In 10 years the weight comparison will be completely flipped
>solid state graphene biopolymer hypercapacitor
Keep talking about things you don't know, and people might actually believe you.

Unless you've actually designed an electric vehicle, and worked with the realistic limitations of modern battery technology, you'll never know how much of a weight restriction they prove. Electric motors won't provide 10x the power, they're already running into problems with basic physics. Batteries won't get smaller very soon, exactly because they'll get exponentially more expensive to produce if they do. It's not that we don't have insanely good batteries already, it's just that we can't put them into a 35K USD consumer-grade vehicle without turning huge losses, both financially and environmentally.

>>17623466
>taking personal offence
Enjoy that aneurysm at age 30, kid.

>The new Model 3 weighs 3800lbs.
No one knows what it weighs, check again. Also, that would be on the upper end of the 3 series.

>Sure boy, that's ready for mass production. And those batteries were probably cheap enough that consumers can actually afford them.
It was an example of what can be done. Also, barely changed the base vehicle aside from the power train, and the batteries came out of a fucking volt.

>Electric motors won't provide 10x the power, they're already running into problems with basic physics.
Electric motors don't need any greater power density than they already have to be so much better than gas motors that it isn't really worth quibbling about.

>Batteries won't get smaller very soon
Except they're literally constantly getting smaller.

>>17623488
>No one knows what it weighs, check again.
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/07/29/tesla-model-3-will-come-in-standard-and-long-range-with-heavyweight-310-mile-range/

Not him, but 3814lbs for a Long Range model. You know, the model that will actually go as far as it's BMW or Mercedes competitors.

>>17623488
PS >solid state graphene biopolymer hypercapacitor was clearly a joke. It's just a reference to the fact that no one really knows what battery tech is going to be predominantly based on in 10 years. There's a lot of stuff up in the air right now.

>>17623499
Color me corrected on that. So the upper end of the 3 will be barely heavier than the upper end of the 3 series? Got it.

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AYO HOL UP

>>17623247
fuck off macfag
dildo isn't preinstalled HAHAHHAHAHA

Teslafag are the macfags of the car world

>>17622928
the design is horrendous. It looks like a fake baby porsche panamera which already had polarizing looks.

The the interior is this minimalistic meme of nothingness. Only the dull and uninspired would fall in love with such a soulless monstrosity. Then, the touchscreen looks like that's where all the funds for producing this car went into.

This has no elegance unlike it's big brother. Elon Musk doesn't care about the middle class and never will.

t. /o/ regular

>>17622928
Looks like a fish blob.

cna't wait for carbon fiber parts to replace some of the steel bits like the hood and trunk.

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>>17623216
Good Infidel. Don't forget about financing our "activities" and burn as much gas as you can

>>17623419
Then we can toss out all the idiotic arguments about the interior.

>>17623228
I don't see why it would need more. Just give me AC and Bluetooth and I'll be happy.

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>>17623583
>soulless

>>17623942
yeah I don't see the need for the deluxe package. Powered mirrors? extra USB ports in the back? Yeah, I'd rather have the 5k. I think the base 35k one is a great value all on it's own.

>>17623837
Makes me wish that model S based GT series had waited for the 3. The 3 seems like it will be a car that wants to be on the track vs. the S which wants to be literally anywhere else.

>>17623255
You're fucking retarded. /o/ constantly shills against new cars because they're covered in buttons and infotainment garbage. The model 3 just looks trash.

>>17623378
Pre orders aren't fucking sales retard

>>17624028
see >>17623419
"m-muh subjective opinion isn't an argument"
make up your minds ICE fags

>>17624038
>model S
>pre orders
show me how retarded you really are

>>17624038
even if half of the pre orderers drop out, that's still 24/7 tm3 production for a year. Then they can fund the model y factory and GF2

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>>17623378
>Model S
>Luxury car
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/tesla-people-hate-me-but-the-tesla-model-s-still-isnt-a-full-size-luxury-sedan-258246

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>>17624038

>>17623175

I bet you'd have wanted a pile of manure smeared on the steering wheel of your model t if you lived in early 20th century...

>>17623441
Jesus thats only 300kg off a rolls royce phantom
Electric atm is the defenition of pigfat

>>17624119
could be worse. at least the pigfat gives you a low CG.

>>17623521

Take that fartbox out of our sight.

>>17624119
The S is a boat, but it's not really indicative of where electric design is anymore. The Bolt and the Model 3 represent the state of the art now.

>>17623225
>"laser-alertness"
What the hell, if it wasn't that sad, I could laugh about it. Sounds like some fucking sillicon valley nerd speak. This line will probably be quoted everywhere by those Tesla arse crawlers.
The Alfa will beat this grocery cart in every single measure.

>>17624103

The interior is proportionally larger in volume. I've in the back seat of Model S and the legroom is huge. Much bigger than in E class Merc, so can't be far away from S class.

>>17624193
part of that is the hueg glass. The proper design can make it feel bigger than it is

>>17624176
Yeah fuck me for quoting motor trend, the opinion I should be looking for is some guy who breathed on a civic once.

>>17624198

It has great design, but actually the headroom is only adequate. The car is very low. Looks great, but not practical. My guess is the next S will be taller, on par with 3. Expect the nose to change too, to ditch the cheap apologetic look in both X and S.

Can Trump please stop my tax dollars from going to this shitty company? Shit just make it so I can select where my tax money goes.

>>17624256

tax money isn't going to tesla. people are being allowed to keep their own money, that would normally go to taxes, if they buy one.

>>17624256
When is GM gonna give its billions in subsidies back?

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>>17624256
>select where my tax money goes.
Great idea drumpfkin

>>17624272
Jokes on you I live in commiefornia where your tax dollars directly fund this company.

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>>17624256
the selective tax thing is a good idea IF you limit it to like %30, and force certain aspects to have "minimums". Wouldn't want to have super overfunded one thing with a critical but not flashy thing being broke.


>>17624273
or the sugar industry They get a billion or so a year. or Big Dairy. We still have great depression subsidies kicking around, lol

not if you want to drive 221 miles without stopping :v)

>>17624200
You should just wait until there's some legit coverage on it after the hype has settled and not from some overexcited motor trend buffoon.

>>17623521
too bad the back looks fucking retarded

>>17624289
>driving over three hours without stopping to being with

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https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/29/16060790/tesla-model-3-interior-controls-first-drive-2017

>Cornering was decent, and when I turned the wheel, I saw no sign of understeer. I made only right turns, and most of the roads that I drove on were crowded with other cars or construction, so I wouldn’t describe my experience as a conclusive test drive, but what I walked away with was a glimpse into what Tesla is thinking.

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>>17624321
>needing 3 hours to drive 220 miles

>>17623843
While you teslafags support open pit mining of heavy/toxic metals to make your batteries thatll be scrap after some years... Just keep shilling

>>17624325
>car review from a tech site
what did you expect? At least cherry pick from a car site, jeez

>>17624292
"I literally know nothing about this car, but it's a shitty go cart!"
"You can't quote professional reviewers who have actually driven the car, it's not legitimate."

>>17624331
>lithium mining
>damaging to the environment

>>17624332
I'm not laughing at the car, I'm laughing at the site

>no understeer while doing right corners in a construction riddled road
WOW!

>>17624256
Your tax money isn't getting spent on this.

>>17624325
>>17624334
""""professional reviewers""""

All the people salivating over the Tesla work for tech mags.

>>17624331
Batteries are basically big chunks of cobolt/copper ore. Super easy to recycle.

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>>17624337
imblyning it isn't

>>17623365
t. shill

>>17624331
You get lithium from evaporation pools coming off lakes. Those pools provide habitat for water fowl.

>>17624330
>implying it will last 220 miles at the speed I drive
The 220 miles is rated at 50-55mph. It lowers exponentially if you drive faster.

>>17624350
That's a copper mine, you mouth breathing retard.

>>17624350
that's a copper mine, moron. Lithium mining is done by pumping brine to the surface and having it evaporate. Still not ""good"" for the environment, but then again what is. People don't complain about copper pipes in their house being bad for the environment when they buy it.

>>17624350
If you think that's a lithium mine, then I have a pristine, completely ecologically stable coal mine to sell you. I'll be waiting.

>>17624347
>motor trend is the verge
Okay sure.
What do I have to do, wait for Matt Farrah to drive it and throw off the driving dynamics with his unsecure load?

>>17624361
even worse then

>>17624361
>not being able to do at least 1000 km without having to refuel/recharge
shiggy diggy do

>>17624385
more like 1300 km if talking German diesel saloons

>>17624286
i really wish people wouldn't lump social security and medicare in with general funds budget. they are funded by a separeate tax and keep their budget separate from the general fund. except when congress borrows money from social security.

50-60 percent of the general fund, funded by income taxes and other, is doing to defense spending. we could cut that to 40% easily, just by no longer bombing and occupying muslim and african nations.

it cost $24,000 a hour to fly a F/A-18. JDAM bombs cost $18,000 each. tomahawk cruise missiles cost 1 million each. a b-52 cost $70,000 a hour to fly. A B-2 stealth bomber cost $170,000 a hour to fly.

>>17624398
buh, muh power projection
muh 12 carrier groups

>>17624361
According to Tesla at 80-85 MPH which is average speeds now on highways the car should only last 110 miles. So you only need to drive an hour and a half before requiring it to recharge.

>costs about $10-20 to fully charge
>200mi range
It's not any different than gasoline really, you just get to pat yourself on the back.

>>17624424
Muh power projection is the only stable source of security in the entire world.

I want to hear the cries of the euros when we take it all back.

>>17624424
we can keep those. we just don't need to be actively engaged in conflicts.

16 years of non stop war has worn out the military. all our current airplanes are basically held together with duct tape, spare parts from the boneyard, and good intentions.

we have let russia and china invade other countries and annex new territory. ossitia in Georgia, crimea and novorussia in ukraine, the spratlys in the Philippines. we don't have the strength left to stand up to russia, china, or even north korea. we would have to start drafting people and increase spending to an even more ruinous amount.

>>17624361
EVs won't replace gas cars until you can drive all day at 80 mph without stopping to recharge. Or they figure out how to recharge them within 15 mins.

>>17624436
>$20

if you are charging during super peak summer hours. if you charge at night during off peak it is $3.

>>17623391
weighs less than my a4. and with most of that weight as low as possible with the battery packs and motors at the wheels, and with no giant engine completely in front of the front axle, there is zero way this thing doesnt out handle my car in every situation. and i have ~$5k in suspension mods.

>>17624176
>>17624292
i mean, it says right there in the quote that the motor trend reviewer who wrote that literally drove a giulia to and from the model 3 test drive. this is a guy who gets paid to review cars. he has driven every car in tesla's market segment. who would be in a better position to make a comparison?

be honest, would you use your same argument to defend the tesla if he said it handled worse than the giulia?

>>17624436
If you're paying $20 for 50-55kwh which is the expected base model, I don't know what to tell you mang.

>>17624432
Jesus that's awful.

>>17624502
yeah. that's like 4.5x the nat average.

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>>17624506
5-10 over the speed limit in most of the country.

>>17624432
Electric cars should be city cars.

>>17624561
jfc 60 maximum speed limit?

t. german

>>17624580
hawaii is small and crowded.

alaskan roads aren't very good and covered in snow half the year.

people around new york are just fascists.

>>17624432

Source ty

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>mfw electric seats are a 5k option on an electric car

>>17624605
>12-way
I'm not up to speed on the latest tech

how tf do you get 12 way adjustable seats

>>17623378
But only one of these is an EV whereas every other one is gas. So you total the gas ones

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>>17624561
>everyone in the eastern half of the US

>>17624398
>they are funded by a separeate tax and keep their budget separate from the general fund. except when congress borrows money from social security.
except that all the money flowing into SS goes into govt bonds first, and their dividends are used to pay out the entitlements, effectively binding the two together

>>17624592
His ass. The only provided range estimates are the 220 and 310 we have.

That said, if you know the speed of those numbers (probably 60) and the drag coefficient and drag cross section of the car, you can probably get a good number for what the range will be at 80-85. Not it tho

>>17624607
>back and forth
>up and down
>front of the seat up or down
>back of the seat up or down
>recline up or down
>lumbar
>headrest up and down, and tilt angle

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>>17622928
My sister drives an A6, it's a piece of shit that's falling apart after two years, she fucking hates it. When they deliver right hand drive model 3's she's buying one. Retarded fuel prices in Europe are going to kill these old smokers faster than you can believe.

>>17622928
It's totally going to kill them all. I think especially in the majority of states that electric charge stations are few and far between. Love the convenience of running out of charge and being stranded. 3 series, C class, and A4 BTFO.

>>17624678
except the A8. Audis are just hopped up VWs VW hasn't been good since the 90s.

>>17624678
There is a reason why /o/ hates VAG.

>>17624735
Even the A8 is just a fancy Phaeton or Phideon, depending on the generation.

The only Audi that's not a VW is the R8, and that's a Lamborghini which they somehow managed to turn into an understeering pig.

>>17623502
>no one really knows what battery tech is going to be predominantly based on in 10 years
Probably the same thing it's been predominantly based on for the last 20 years.
Lithium.
We've had lithium ion batteries since the early 70's.
Any "future" battery tech would have already been in development for decades.
We've had NiCad since 1899, when Hitler was a 10 year old boy.
We've had Lead Acid since 1801, and modern versions of it since 1881.
We have absolutely no foreseeable battery tech to replace lithium in the coming decade, probably not even within your lifetime.

>>17624831
which isn't a problem. Just gotta get the energy density a bit better, and bolster the lifespan. Once batteries get cheap the whole degradation thing won't matter too

>>17624831
Massive sea changes are possible even within lithium chemistry. Toyota is betting on solid state which I would say is at least partially due to hemming and hawing and not wanting to release a proper electric car in the near future, but I'm sure they take it seriously. Solid state could be as big a departure from modern batteries as modern lithium is from NiMH.

>>17624863
lithium titanate batteries charge and discharge very fast. with only slightly less specific energy compared to li-ion.

>>17624831
All solid state batteries are the future

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology

>>17624918
That's literally a nothing a story right now.
Every single year there are thousands of nothing stories published to make the public read them.
If there's any substance to it, it is decades out from being a reality, and probably half a dozen decades out from being in the wide spread publics hands.

>>17624958
And then when they come out people like yourself can say that it's been around for decades.

>>17624958
lol prototypes of solid state batteries exist today and it's decades, plural, from seeing the light of day? Yeah, no. Give it ten years and if it's not already pervasive, you can reliably assume it is completely dead.

>>17623188
wheres the gear shift?

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>>17624958
You've got a point.

>>17624998
The touchscreen.

Every function is controlled from the touchscreen. It's minimalistic perfection.

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>>17624998
>
steering column stalk, like on the s and x.

>>17623175
Fucking generation x faggot.

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>>17624958
>announced in February
>WOW HOW DO I NOT SEE THEM IN THE MARKET NOW IT'S A FAILURE

I drive 35 miles each way to work and back. 70 miles per day. Can I make it round trip while running the heater mid winter? I live in Minnesota

>>17625110
Easily. You can do it on a single charge, most likely.

>>17625092
If you were old enough to have been paying attention to news stories long enough, you'd have seen by now there are thousands and thousands of ground breaking stories every single year, about the same old topics, and even the same old technologies. And the vast majority of them never go anywhere and become anything.

I said if there were substance to this story, it would take 60 years before its widely used by the public.
It's essentially a nothing story. I didn't say
>If its reel y can't i buy it?
I said, if there's real substance to it, it's essentially irrelevant to anyone in this thread, and definitely irrelevant to the ICE vs Electric car debate as it stands right now.

>>17623188
>no adjustable airvents
>fuckhuge tablet just stuck onto the middle console
>no RPM/Speed gauge
>most likely won't even work without the tablet

>>17625124
Why would it take that long?

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>>17622928

>>17625110
heater doesn't kill range as much as you'd think. I'd guess that in very cold weather the 3 would go from 220 to 175

>>17625125
The speed gauge is on the tablet. There is also no rpm because 1 gear.

im buying a tesla suv for our organic food delivery company. it will have a hitch on it to haul a small air conditioned trailer, i wonder if this is a good idea at all or not. the hippie chick driving it will probably break down somewhere in the forest

>>17625124
(diff. anon) I do follow the stories and know how many fail to pan out. However you have very little idea what you are talking about as evidenced by simply lumping all technologies in together as if they are one thing. Many are simply hoaxes from the start, many ARE actually decades away. Solid state is in a highly active state of development, far more than any of the alternatives. That and silicon anode technology are something that people interested in battery tech should be looking at as near term, not long term shifts

>>17625134
Infrastructure, industry, standards, economies, cost, research, development.

Go read about the development of any serious technological advancement.
Electronic Computers were around in the late 40's.
It took 50 years before normal people had them in the home. And 70 years before normal people used them on a daily basis.

The car as we know it was created in the late 1800's, and it wasn't even using ground breaking technologies, It took 70 years before your average first world family had a car.
And it took 100 years before your average family had more than one car.

>>17625110
a LEAF could do that. electrics also have the advantage of using power from a charger to run the HVAC system. so your car can be warmed ahead of time with out taking range.

>>17625167
>Go read about the development of any serious technological advancement.
Better yet, why don't you tell me where? And how those technologies can compare when Moore's Law and technological advancement was not as fast as it is today and didn't have as much to build off?

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>>17625160
why not take out the rear seats and just stick an air conditioned box back there? plenty of room.

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>>17625187
>>17625160

>>17625167
If you keep making these reaching comparisons you're going to pull something. Revolutionizing an existing field is not the same as creating an entirely new concept from scratch. You would have looked at the iphone and said "yeah, I'll probably see these in households in 2070"

>>17625124
Except this tecgnolgy is being developed by one of the pioneers of lithium ion batteries so I think it has a pretty good chance of succeeding

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Call me when Tesla beats this Masterpiece

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>>17625269
If you're gonna post electric supercars post the superior one senpai

>>17623569
Pretty apt comparison

>Cult of personality around progressive douche of a CEO
>Products focus on style and design despite being inferior as far as function goes
>Totally overpriced at base level with insane margins on options and accessories
>Products used as fashion statements instead of for utility

The only difference is that Apple was/is insanely profitable, and Tesla completely relies on gibs. Edge to Apple.

>>17625269
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCwBBaZ7UAE
HAMMOOOOOOND

No. Electric cars right now are a gimmick.

When you can get 400-500 miles on average for a car and not pay the same premium you would for a mustang gt, then it would actually be worrisome. Until then, the very fact those other cars have much larger brand recognition to begin with means they'll sell better.

>>17624474
They will replace cars (people just commuting to/from work).

They won't replace ICE trucks (hauling cargo all day/night).

>>17625342
>They won't replace ICE trucks (hauling cargo all day/night).
Musk is planning to reveal his long haul truck this year iirc
Although I'm skeptical as well. I think it'll end up being more like a short haul truck that makes multiple hauls between charges.

>>17622928
>double the price of said models
No, it doesnt

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>>17625402
?

>>17625402
So all you people commenting about how cheap german entry level luxury cars are just trolling, right? You're not that retarded?

Make an affordable base model and nickel and dime to option it out is a gameplan Tesla literally copied verbatim from the germans.

>>17624436
>10-20

wat .11/kw/h here. 60hwk=$6.60 to go 200 miles.

My diesel truck cost 10x that for 200 miles. My car goes about 280-320 on $50.

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>>17625269
and it has a normal interior

>>17622928
>This kills the 3 series, c class, A4, pretty much everything in the segment

Nah, with the pricing and options, it'll remain only an option to anyone considering getting a hybrid, I'm not talking down on Teslas like /o/ traditionally does, but that's just the financial reality at the moment.

>>17625762
Literally btfo before you even posted, see >>17625411

>>17625787
So what about the rest of the cars in the segment then?

>>17625814
You mean the segment that BMW fucking invented? Yeah they follow the same basic principle you mongoloid.

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>>17625336

>>17624477
>just change your entire life to revolve around charging your garbage car

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>>17625815
You can not act like a defensive autist, OP named multiple cars, and unless it can beat all of them out in pricing, options, and relative performance, the Model 3 hasn't BTFO anything. That's a cool fact that BMW "invented" the segment, too bad it has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

>>17625858
Yeah, taking ten steps to plug your car in at night is basically vehicular fascism imposed on you by electro-hitler. I suppose you have a self-filling gas pump installed in your home so you don't have to revolve your life around the gas station?

>>17625860
You're just retarded if you don't realize BMW basically sets the standard of the segment. Going through and comparing all of them might be slightly more informative but is completely unecessary here, you're just being obtuse because you were btfo and should move on.

>>17625875
Are you retarded? You said "charge it at night." What if I need to drive it around during the day all the time? Should I change my life just so I can charge at night?

>tesla fags in charge of ever thinking about things deeper

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>body and styling of a Mazda 3
>interior of a 80s Hyundai
>beat anything

>>17625905
>guy points out that it's cheaper to charge your car than that and WAY cheaper if you charge it off peak
>you decide that means you have to literally change your life to charge at night every single time
What a drama whore.
If you can't do the optimum thing then don't. who fucking cares

>>17625888
>You're just retarded if you don't realize BMW basically sets the standard of the segment.
>You're just retarded if you don't agree with this completely subjective statement I've concocted to justify my argument

This is called a non-sequitur, the claim was it beats the entire segment, not just arguably the most expensive brand of the segment, regardless of some "standard" that you wish to apply.

>>17625937
You're the one claiming the pricing and options don't compare with the segment, which they clearly do. Back your own shit up you fucking moron.

>>17623378
That is there only fucking sedan on the market. Of course it is going to be higher.

MSRP: $70k

S-Class - $100k (combine CLS, E, S class sales and it beats tesla)

Same with other manufactures. Audi, BMW, etc all $70k+ cars combined are destroying Tesla.

Not to mention the fucking GLS is outselling Tesla's only SUV.

They're actually a meme. Imagine when their stock falls. They are FUCKED.

>>17625044
Jesus who thought that this piece of shit passes as a steering wheel?

>>17625044
let me just turn left here... *flicks stalk*
>instantly reverse into the car behind me.

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>>17623188
>interior of a 14k car
What makes Tesla think this is passable?

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>>17625937
decided to do one for audi.

the cheapest possible a4 (fwd) is $36k. (tesla is $1k cheaper)
cheapest a4 with quattro is $40.5k. (tesla doesnt have awd yet, but will)
the cheapest a4 is much slower than the cheapest tesla. (by 1.5 seconds 0-60)
the quattro is identical in straight-line performance to the base model 3.
the upgraded model 3 is faster than every a4. (by .5 second 0-60)
a non base model a4 with decent options is around $50k. (tesla is $1k cheaper)

looks like the tesla wins. and i say that as an a4 owner.

>>17625987
ask me how i know that youre barely old enough to drive.

>>17623432
It's going to change, because internal combustion is essentially a mature technology and electric storage isn't.

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>>17623188
>interior filled with nothing

>>17624282
Wisconsin is red cuccboi

>>17626092
wow you sure showed him

>>17625856
but its not?

Im stating why it wont kill those other brands of cars. Dont be dumb.

>>17626109
youre saying things like you have any authority on the matter. like, what do you know? what makes you qualified to be dropping knowledge about brand marketing? please tell me you think it's 'common sense'.

>>17626096
Are you gonna cry about the social programs that you vote for too?

>>17626131
are you gonna post more word salad if i reply to you

>>17624334
>>17624374
Yeah sure, I'll be holding this opinion unless I'm convinced otherwise. Getting a review from someone like Farrah would be a good start. >>17624484
No, I'm just here to defend the Giulia. That's because I can fully stand behind it, having driven it myself.
---
Also I really can't understand some of you glorifying this thing. This is a board for car enthusiasts. Those things are nothing but an appliance.

>>17626160
>guys i have an opinion!
this is the most empty reply i've ever gotten here's your you now fuck off

>>17623188
Looks great in my opinion. The touchscreen is also one of the few touchscreen systems in cars that actually is really fast.

>>17626160
>No, I'm just here to defend the Giulia. That's because I can fully stand behind it, having driven it myself.
well you haven't driven a tesla, which has most of its weight in a battery pack strapped to its floorboards. im sure the alfa handles well for a car with a giant chunk of metal stuffed in front of the firewall, but if youve never driven anything even remotely resembling the form factor of an EV then you cant really stand behind it at all when comparing it to one.

>Also I really can't understand some of you glorifying this thing. This is a board for car enthusiasts. Those things are nothing but an appliance.
its still a car, and a damn exciting one. one thats going to revolutionize the car world. at some point ill have a tesla parked right next to my big turbo a4 in my garage.

btw people said the same things about automatic transmissions, fuel injection, etc. this is a bigger leap, but you can still be an electric car enthusiast. there will be an aftermarket for these cars. bigger motors, amperage boosters, shit i cant even imagine right now, etc. just accept it anon.

>>17622928

The quality is shittier than a 90's opel, when they were starved by gm. Meme car btfo.

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>>17623196
I've had two 335i's msports and there's nothing special about the interior. I'd take those white seats all day over the bmw.

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roomy

>>17625044
>let me use my windshield wipers

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

>>17626270
this kills the celt.

>>17625990
shtfu they're backed up by governments no way are they going down

>>17626288
>No defroster

>>17625507
What car do you drive that gets 2.5 mpg?
>assuming gas is $2.50 a gallon

>>17626303

it is there. behind the headrests.

>>17626304
probably some huge diesel 4x4 bro truck and he is heavy on the throttle.

>>17626339
I get 14-16 mpg. You sure you're not the actual retard?

>>17622928
>Tesla
>mattering
>ever
Fully electric cars with giant heavy batteries will never be the future. Tesla is a real world forced meme, forced by ridiculous amounts of Jew money and bleeding heart journalists and politicians without a single clue about cars. The quality of these overpriced shitboxed is Chinese tier, they will never catch up with Japanese and German premium brands, whereas every manufacturer will catch up with Tesla in terms of electric mobility.

>>17626395
>every manufacturer will catch up with Tesla in terms of electric mobility.
That will be a good day that I am not holding my breath for. Everyone has had a model S clone in the pipeline for years and not a single one has ever panned out. Going through the same thing with the model 3 now.

The Bolt is the only practical electric car ever released by anyone not named Tesla and they have not met their rollout plans.

>the rest of this post
(you)

>>17626411
the LEAF still outsells the BOLT. despite having less than half the range and being the same price and size.

>>17626419
Honestly don't understand how >a FUCKING LEAF outsells anything and I'm an electricity faggot. Just goes to show how sad the rest of the electric market is and then people wonder why Tesla is so popular when they prop up an entire emerging industry.

>>17626411
Everyone has practical hybrids and fuel cell cars in the pipeline, none of the big players have battery cars on the roadmap. If the US wasn't so intimidated by efficient German diesels, would they try to shit on VAG so hard?

>>17625391
Musk is a hype machine, his only real succesful venture is spacex. Everything else he does is subsidized by spacex

Hyperloop and the boring company are nothing but hype generators, not viable concepts.

>>17626395
>Fully electric cars with giant heavy batteries will never be the future.
model 3 is lighter than most cars in its class.

>>17626270
>>17626288
>Elon how do you want the interior of the most important car your shitty company has ever produced?
>JUST...

>>17626428
LEAF was first and they are steeply discounting them in many states to clear out inventory for the LEAF 2.0(with 200 mile range).

>>17626434
nah. model 3 is subsidized by model s sales. tesla would be a very profitable company right now if thats all they focused on. the only reason the 3 isnt profitable yet is all the infrastructure and production/r&d facilities theyve had to build up to support it. just like any other fledgling company putting out their first mass market product. once the first gen gets them on the map and their factories are all built and superchargers are all out there, it's all gravy baby.

>>17626430
>practical hybrids
These are the actual pigfat soulless monstrosities that people who bitch about battery electrics are really thinking about.

>fuel cell cars
Literally no one is making a fuel cell car, are you retarded? Japan has some misguided incentives in place which is why Honda and Toyota had plans - ONLY Honda and Toyota. And even those are abandoned now.

> If the US wasn't so intimidated by efficient German diesels, would they try to shit on VAG so hard?
Except diesels never sold well in the US in the first place. VAG got got because they cheat on an unbelievably massive scale. Enjoy your cancer euros.

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>>17626430
Just another normally running VAG diesel.

>>17626430
Diesels with particulate matter filters put out quite a bit of carcinogenic PM2.5

Part of the reason why London looks like Beijing sometimes

700 wh/kg when?

>>17625203
It is essentially a new field though. We already have existing industries, infrastructure, businesses, policies, etc. for gasoline vehicles. Electric vehicles will need to change all of that, and be more practical than gasoline vehicles.

>>17626434
>Everything else he does is subsidized by spacex
That's just patently not true lol. Spacex is profitable presumably sure, but it is a closed book so who knows. Tesla is supported by sales and, essentially, borrowing against its own valuation. No it's not profitable, it's not supposed to be. Tesla doesn't want to reign in and be profitable as a small producer, everything goes into growth.

>Hyperloop and the boring company are nothing but hype generators, not viable concepts
Elon isn't making a hyperloop and never claimed to.

>>17626479
Different things. That discussion was about emergent technology in the battery industry, not electric vehicles which are established technology but an emergent market.

>>17626472
not this century. Li-ion batteries are barely over 100 wh/kg.

which is fine really. if we can lower the price, charge them faster with out degrading, and have a decent pack life.

>>17626472
700wh/kg? That's for babies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery

>>17626502
State of the art lithium ion is over 250 wh/kg.

Solid state could be 600-1k wh/kg iirc.

>>17623378
Jesus...why would anybody buy an Audi A6 over Lexus LS

>>17622928

>200 miles
>It takes Tesla 3 over 8 hours to recharge fully with 9.6 kW.
>$60K with all options. Tesla jews anyone so harder.
topkek

>>17624484
>spending $5,000 on suspension mods on a fucking Volkswagen on prom night.

Fucking retard

>>17626452
it's a never-ending process for tesla though
>fund 3 with S
>fund Y factory with 3
>fund tesla semi with Y
>fund gigafactory 2 with y/3/semi sales
>roll out ridesharing network with your 800,000 cars on the road
>take over world

>>17626419
lots of the profs at my college have leafs. It's a short commute from the big city so it makes sense. Mostly 2012-2013 leafs.

>>17626525
>>17626510
>>17626472
if people weren't so anal about keeping ""their"" battery we could just do 60 sec battery swaps. But for some reason folks get attached to the battery that they have. Maybe in a few years.

>>17626584
I don't think battery swapping will be done any time soon. Tesla's experiments with it were a failure.

Maybe when batteries are so energy dense that you can just swap out 50-100kwh by hand. Swapping out the heaviest and most integral part of your car is a daunting procedure just for the sake of saving 20-40 minutes at a supercharger (much of which it won't actually save because there are extraneous procedures involved)

>>17626572
i know right? stupid me should have took that money and put it into tsla stock. with the money i sunk into my overpriced vw it'd have paid for a model 3 by now.

>>17626584
Wait so err I don't own the car after paying $50k for it?

>>17626784
you do. but if you want to make money on the side, you'll be able to loan it out to people in the ridesharing tesla network. For instance, when you get to work it'll then drive itself to somewhere else for someone to use it (paying you in the process). All opt-in of course

>>17626801
W.. what happens if someone jerks off in it or vandalizes it? This shit will make my insurance fucking retarded high.

>>17626812
Well, it is more for not-owned-yet-cars. If you own it outright the ridesharing isn't for you, entirely. As for your situation, I'd assume there would be a rating and reporting system.

>insurance
tesla might be offering insurance soon. Just a rumor

>>17626826
What is someone uses it to commit murder?

>>17626831
dunno. The whole ridesharing thing is still a few years away

>>17626849
Can I turn on the feature then hide in the backseat or trunk/frunk?

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>>17626853
I guess...?

here are quotes from Elon about it


"So there will be a shared autonomy fleet where you buy your car and you can choose to use that car exclusively. You can choose to have it used only by friends and family… or other drivers who are rated five star. You can choose to share it sometimes but not other times. That’s 100 percent what will occur. It’s just a question of when.”

"A lot of people think that once you make cars autonomous that they’ll be able to go faster and that will alleviate congestion and to some degree that will be true. But once you have shared autonomy where it’s much cheaper to go by car. And you can go point to point. The affordability of going in a car will be better than that of a bus. Like, it would cost less than a bus ticket. So the amount of driving that will occur will be much greater with shared autonomy and actually, traffic will get far worse.”

general ridesharing should be around 66 cents a mile according to one study.

>>17624678
Hahaha what's with froome posting

>>17626270
>huge window letting in all the sunlight
>black interior
> $100k "luxury car"
Is he trying to cook jews or something

>>17626493
oh

>>17625187

>those terrible ranges

It explains why Model X is fuckin heavy as hell.

>>17625160
>organic food
>buys a tesla

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/opinion/sunday/why-industrial-farms-are-good-for-the-environment.html

>>17627387
>implying the author of that article isn't on monsanto's payroll

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>>17627432
https://thebreakthrough.org/images/pdfs/Nature_Unbound.pdf

>>17627499
>thinks im debating him
get a grip.

>>17627511
Sorry, I've run into those retards too many times

Perhaps I should take a break

>>17627534
that is in the middle of silicon valley. it's a bunch of idiots improperly using charging infrastructure.

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>>17627551

>middle of silicon valley.

It will happen everywhere. That's why Tesla decided to charge others for using the supercharging. :^)

You better pay up and wait for several hours to recharge fully.

>>17627577
anyone that has been driving a LEAF or other EV already knows better. charging mostly at home and only charging in public when they need it.

the bulk of 3 owners will be these people or people that haven't owned an EV previously.

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>>17627535

>>17623216
i definitely would get the M5 lol
use the 60k or so you saved and spend it on gas and tires to scare teslas

>>17627667
bunch of people can't charge at home since they live in an apt or something. Sucks for them. I doubt the tripling of SC locations will help either. 10% of them get 90% of the traffic

>>17627702
i've been selling chargers to apartment/condo complexes. they see that not having charging is going to cost them customers in the future.

>>17627714
The use of cars in places with apartment/condo complexes highlights a problem in urban form

>>17627714
when building a new house, asking the electrician to put in a couple extra 220v in the garage is very inexpensive. Should be standard fare nowadays. What brand do you sell? the Siemens ones are quite nice

>>17627746
Clipper Creek

the most expensive part of any charger instillation is getting power from the breaker box to the charger. the electricity costs are basically nothing in comparison. I tell companies putting in chargers for employees. if you give your employees free coffee. you will spend more on coffee than EV charging electricity.

>>17627729
charging triad; public, home, work. as long as you have access to two of them you can make owning an EV work.

>>17627778
my father did some work at a hi-tech place with four or so chargers in the parking lot. They had a super strict policy with swapping out who is charging when in the lot. Without it the whole thing went to shit with the engineers starting squabbling over who's S could get charged when. Dunno why they didn't just install a billion of them

>>17623378
>BMW 7 series placing a solid fourth over Porsche
tasty.

>>17624561
I'm pretty sure Jew York is 55

>>17623378
>implying shell and BP don't have stakes in the electric energy business

>>17623419
>5er
>E-class
make up your mind faggot
either say 5er and E-Klasse or 5 series and E-Class

>>17623378
>in USA
lel

>>17625000
kys nigger

>>17625110
cold has a surprisingly large effect of battery efficiency.
with a leaf like the other guy said youd cut it pretty damn close id say

>>17627059
that's the 3 not the S lol

>>17626178
seconded. interior is really nice looking too imo

>>17623188
just looks like a wheeled desk with an oversized ipad.

wheres the fuckin a/c?????

>>17624325
>no understeer in city driving
ICEKEKS BTFO

>>17624735
The S8 makes my dick tingle, rocketboats are the best.

>>17625269
>this was made by croatians
im still baffled.

>>17623175
The batteries have their own internal cooling system so a grill would be a pointless decoration. I bet you're one of those faggots that would put a wing on an automatic corolla to make it "look fast"

>>17624256
Assuming that model 3 pre-orders eventually get filled than the tax rebate is already over for Tesla buyers

>>17623188
>no speedo behind the wheel
Ha, that's not gonna stick, there's a reason Mini changed their minds about that.
I'm sure one or two ideas from this interior might stick but trying to reinvent the wheel so hard like that tends to meet a lot of resistance.
Musk is too cocky for his own good.

>>17625336
this

>>17622928
Unless you want a car with character.

>>17629148
>audi
>character

>>17629148
>>17629157
>comparing any brand new mass produced car to another
>people talking about "character" and "soul"
Fucking disgusting and shameful, honestly. "Character" is earned over a lifetime of ownership, it doesn't just come off the line.

>>17629157
Where in my post does it say Audi?

>>17623188
That fucking tablet looks like it's just been stapled on, no attempt at design

>>17622928
>He thinks this 5000 pound sedan with shit cornering kills anything
Topple Kek m8. It has the same 0-60 time as an eight gen v6 accord sedan with less mileage range and cornering ability. Literally a sham.

>>17629229
The funny thing is you think you know what you're talking about. /o/ is a joke

>>17629157
The answer is nowhere, and you're a fucking idiot. Congratulations.

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>>17624958
>>17624958
>60 years
more like 5
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/toyota-wants-to-commercialize-solid-state-ev-batteries-by-2022-reports-say/

>>17629104
Prius has always had the center soeedo

>>17629408
That must be why all the Prius drivers I see are speeding. Always funny to see them speeding to save gas.

>>17629197
>implying a design can't have character or be bland by itself
>>17629199
>>17629270
the post you were replying to says audi

>>17629544
It says several different cars, my post was clearly aimed at the Tesla only.

>>17625411
330i costs $48k and does 0-60 in 5.4s

>>17629574
>>17625411
>>17625402
Or you could buy a used 996TT for similar price and be faster, and have real leather interior. Less seating room of course.

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>>17623188
that's a joke i hope, zero character, completely tasteless, i couldn't be more turned off, truely designed by an autist who's idea of a perfect partner is a sterile, vacuum sealed, rubber dildo

jeus fucking christ, if you defend this abomination you need to kill yourself now

>>17629614
and no warranty and no good leasing options

>>17629644
Get a third party inspection.

>leasing options
hah

Can't wait for those touchscreens to inevitably break eventually rendering the car completely inoperable and their owners stranded, kek

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>>17629696
full self driving + voice commands
"tesla, drive me to work and then drive yourself to the service center. be back to pick me up at 6".

>>17629720
cuck

>>17629735
angry upset yuropoorean :)

>>17629735
Keep sucking that Saudi dick

>>17629744
I'm from 'Murricah thanks

>>17629720
>implying the same harness doesn't handle both the touchscreen and the mic

>>17629747
I'm going to burn gas until I'm dead, fuck you neo hippies. I'm gonna be 80 years old with a good old internal combustion engine that sounds great.

>>17629761
Your precious ICE cuckmobiles will be banned, seized and crushed long before that.

>>17629761
In 80 years you will need a special license and approved roads to drive any car with manual driving capability and gas stations will be a thing of the past, so good luck.

>>17629082
What's stupid about the no grill thing is that they just made it look like they were too lazy to cut out sheet metal

>>17629765
Just like it happened with steam cars or 2-stroke cars? Go hug a tree somewhere else.

>>17629769
It's all image building. Specifically drawing attention to the fact that LOOK GUYS WE NEED NO GRILLE BECAUSE OUR CARS ARE ELECTRIC. We could've put a grille there but we didn't because WE DON'T NEED ONE. Have I mentioned OUR CARS ARE ELECTRIC AND THEREFORE BETTER THAN YOURS yet?

>>17629761
enjoy not having a place to buy gas, ICEcuck

>>17629765
Nah fuck that. Can you even drive a car with a standard transmission?

>>17629767
I said me being 80, that's less than 50 years. Will have to stockpile tanks of gas, which will happen in mass once the word gets out that it's crunch time. Thank god I'll be dead once that day comes.

>>17629777
Is this /o/? what the fuck

>>17629778
>"standard" transmission
>driving
I assume you mean manual, which is obsolete. A thing of the past, just like driving yourself and internal combustion-powered cars will soon be.

>>17629778
>stockpile tanks of gas
enjoy your spoilt fuel, kek

>>17629778
>I said me being 80,
Yeah I derped.
>Will have to stockpile tanks of gas, which will happen in mass once the word gets out that it's crunch time
Oh boy I cannot wait to laugh every time I hear yet another "family blows up in stockpiled gas explosion because dad really wanted to keep driving his 90s corolla"

electric motors are even older than combustion engines. what kind of marketing master has convinced people to believe it's innovative to go back to stone age technology

>>17629781
You assume? Jesus christ are you 13 years old?

>>17629779
lol I was just trolling for the lulz, I'm a combustionbro too
we'll synthesize our own gas if need arises
if you're gonna stockpile look up how to vent the tanks and how to prevent degradation, you don't want your fuel to go bad

>>17629781
>>17629783
>>17629785
This is what /o/ has become? FML

>>17629787
Because there has never been anything wrong with electric motors. Batteries have always been the choke point which is why advancements in lithium have brought electric cars back. If you don't recognize this then you're probably too much of an illiterate shitfuck to bother correcting though.

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>>17629792
the need rises

>>17629797
Don't be triggered by realism. Whether you hate it or welcome it doesn't change the trajectory of the future.

>>17629792
Will do. Fuck these hippies

>>17629801
Not in my lifetime you limp dicked fuck

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>>17629797
see >>17629792
I was just pretending to be a teslacuck
BTW, nogrille has always looked like utter shit
>mfw people put fake grilles on these because of how bad it looks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsvtkM2TSh8

>>17629805
Cry yourself to sleep boy, gas probably won't be a thing by the time you're old enough to drive lmao

>>17622928
Couldn't they just paint on a black grill or put a solar panel there that looks absolutely disgusting

>>17629790
>>17629797
Alright fine, I'm also just shitposting. That's what these threads always turn into anyway.

>>17629798
I see that you know why combustion engine won the battle for in the auto industry 100 years ago. But I don't see how we fixed the problem which lead to the demise of EV. Range and charging batteries. If you really care about environment and are ready to take less comfort to help the ecosystem (be less flexible with your car), just go vegan instead of buying ev cars. It helps more than buying a tesla.

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>>17629813
try again cuccboi
gas doesn't take an hour to fill up

>>17629813
hah I'm probably the oldest fucker in this thread.

>>17629820
>VAG
>diesel
>clean
None of these things go together.

>>17629820
>co2 filtering to make fuel
This diagram is basically "and then magic happened"
The efficiency of this process would be in the .001% range.

>>17629819
>he thinks being vegan helps the environment
top lel, you're as deluded as teslacucks
cows may produce methane but there's a lot worse things monocultures do to the environment
>>17629825
did you even open the pic? it's literally zero impact fuel, the carbon in it is captured from the air
>>17629829
>filtering
lol
there's chemical reactions dude
but of course it needs some improvement or VAG would be selling us fuel already

>>17629819
>Range and charge rate
... Are a function of the battery, afformentioned. So you are an illiterate shitfuck.
>muh trees, muh veganism
The environment is cool. I like having green outside my house and being alive and breathing and shit. But that's not why I like electric car tech. I just like the raw simplicity, versatility, torque and power density of electric motors.

>>17629839
If you want to save the environment just kill yourself. No carbon footprint from you. Literally the best tree hugging tactic is to hang from one.

>>17629829
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-diesel
>A plant on Heroya in Norway, producing 10 million liters per year, is being considered, as CO2 from a fertilizer plant is readily available and electricity is relatively cheap in Norway.

>>17629839
you mean the monocultures which are mainly grown to feed livestock? how is vegan not better for environment? what is better: feeding 7 billion people with plants or feeding 7 billion people with another billions of livestock with plants. I don't see how the first can drain more resources than the latter.

>>17629839
>filtering
Your diagram literally directly uses the term filtering you stupid fuck.
>muh chemical reactions
Aren't magic. Good luck providing reagents proportional to the massive amounts of co2 you need.

>>17629849
dude, Lithium won't get much better
they'll need hydrogen fuel cells or something like that for it to become a real thing
>>17629851
lel
I'm eco-friendly but not eco-crazy. And I don't believe the man-made climate change bullshit btw. It's a scam.
>>17629856
I mean the monocultures that deplete the soil and end up desertifying areas and making them unusable
at least here in my country the only monoculture for cows is the natural grass