Is there any circumstance in which grip ISN'T faster than

On paved roads? No.

>>16810272
yes, when an 86 is racing

>>16810272
on really low grip car in a tight turn a tiny bit of doriftu to get the car pointed at exit will be tiny bit faster.

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switchbacks on tarmac rally and high speed sweepers on motorcycles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEEEGOdmqGA

Look at how every time he's on the throttle he's using it to steer the bike, This isn't like a drift though, it's sliding the bike just a little to get it to turn more.

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>>16810272
When your tires are bald from the first 80% of the race

>>16810272
you have to slip a little to get the most grip

>>16810272
Sweaty S2K man had it right. You should be right on the edge of slipping to be fastest.

>>16810370
Depending on your tires about 5% slip angle are your maximum grip.
That is why you want your car to get neutral into the corner too have 5% slip angle on front and rear tires.

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>>16810395
Get hydrated, God Hand

>>16810272
If your car has a giant tail and front finn you coud theoreticly gain latheral accelleration with a higher slipangle due to a higer angle of attack on the finns, wich would give you aerodynamic latheral force instead of tire grip.

I haven´t seen any car where this would actualy apply yet, so it is just hypothetical.

>>16810272
When the end goal is popularity and a sponsorship drifting is faster

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>>16810421
>latheral force

>>16810395
Get hydrated, God Hand

>>16810395
Get Hydrated, God Hand

>>16810395
Get hydrashu, God handru

>>16810529
Did I misspell something?
My english isn´t that well...

>>16810272
cars with low torque output, and very peaky engines will benefit sliding around very tight corners to keep the rpm up in the power band if the tires are the exact kind you need. too grippy and you won't be able to spin them, not enough grip and you'll spin your tires instead of accelerate. go-karters will often do this. i also saw a video of the """drift king""" talking about hitting apex markers on purpose to upset the balance of the car causing the wheels to spin and keep the rpm up. He's also a shit at getting good lap times so i question this method.

>>16810272
yes, in a circle

>>16810395
GET HYDRATED, GOD HAND

>>16810559
There is a techique around for insanely small powerbands, wich was used extensivelx in the 70s moto GP 50ccm class where the driver used the clutch to keep the engine in the extremely narrow powerband.

But these where insanly high strung engines making power (15-30hp) at about 15.000rpm or higher and only had a 700rpm powerband.

>>16810272
There is a reason why F1 monoposts nor endurance cars go for dorifuto!

The fact is your tires will always slip, albeit slightly. Look at superslowmotion replay clips of racecars going over bumps.. you can see that they are not following in a straight line but that they are sliding sideways ever so slightly even without their tires slipping from the lack of traction.

There is one good exception and it is apparent when it comes to 4wd rally cars - if you can point your car into direction where you want to go and use excessive power to push your car into that direction, it may be faster than going slowly and relying on lateral stability and careful management of slip angle. This is more pronounced on lose surfaces than on tarmac even though it works there in some sense too.

Some systems with active dynamic braking can pivot front of the car and let the end swing around adding to push-in effect but that is negligible in racing applications as you are using brakes (wasting kinetic energy).

>>16810557
You meant lateral, but you wrote latheral, and lather is the bubbly stuff soap makes.

>>16810557
Lateral = sideways
Lather = soap suds

>>16810559
a good example is my s2000, if i go around a very tight corner in first, if i try doing it full grip, my rpms might drop to 4000, which is way below where my engine makes any power. then exiting the corner i will have to painfully wait for the rpms to climb again before i start to accelerate quickly.

if i spin my tires however, i can keep the power band around 6000rpm, which is where i need it to be on corner exit, and waiting for the tires to regain traction is much quicker than waiting for the rpms to climb again, it just puts more strain and wear on the car.

That being said this is a very specific example that works for my car.

Somehow initial d managed to get it right when they were discussing god hands technique, it seems to be the absolute fastest way to drive an s2000 on tight roads, little bit of slip and keep the power up, but not enough to lose speed.

>>16810581
>>16810584
not that guy but I've never heard of lather and I've been shitposting on 4chan for 10 years. how is this possibru.

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>>16810529
>bike doesn´t stay outside
>bike stays next to my bed
pic related

>>16810586
Read the back of a shampoo bottle sometime

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>>16810272

>>16810591
ayy nice simson

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>>16810272
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37qjVcriuUw

>>16810571
i used to do this in gt V in the classic beetle. trying to drag race it was shit so i just slipped the clutch at redline until i could shift. Self-made CVT

>>16810603
Usually you stop doing that once you hit peak torque in a gear.

>>16810586
The English language is so vast that there's bound to be words you've never encountered, even after ten years. I'm a native speaker and I still find words I've never heard before every month.

>>16810601
>>16810595
These don't look like paved roads to me.

>>16810586
>>16810608
Holy shit, read a book.

>>16810574
>There is a reason why F1 monoposts nor endurance cars go for dorifuto
Both bad examples. Formula cars are incredibly reliant on downforce, which they will lose if they yaw more than a tiny bit. Endurance racers are obviously focused primarily on endurance, and races are won and lost by less than the time it takes to perform a tire change.

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>>16810615
Most of what I find are technical terms or Latinate words people don't use outside of academia, senpai.

>>16810395
Fuck off God Arm.

>>16810628
Manuals and didactic lit. don't count.

>>16810395
Get Hydrated, God Hand

>>16810395
Get Hydrated, God Hand

>>16810564
underrated but true

>>16810619
Guess WHY the rely on downforce or what for that downforce it. What does it prevent... if going sideways was any faster than sticking it.. they would dump that drag-inducing downforce and keep sliding like Takumi with tofu. But they don't. Because grip is faster and to keep grip you need shitloads of downforce.

>>16810395
Get hydrated nip nong ching chong

>>16810307
Yep It's so that they can get it straight faster and accelerate out of the corner earlier.

i assume liftoff oversteer and letting the back step out on a FWD is faster

>>16811290
As long as you don´t have ludicrous amounts of understeer, you will be slower.

>>16810272
why would grip ever be slower?

>>16810564
I stand corrected

>>16810564
Now I am intersted, how could you drive faster in a given circle when your tires are not utilising 100% of their maximum grip?

>>16812285
driving into the future turning angle predicted by your slip

in a circle you can keep this angle and simply accelerate beyond what grip can get you.

>>16812294
i explained that poorly. basically in a circle, the best line is always inside. so there's no cheating to find the best line, you drive into it with all your power.

>>16812294
But your lateral force is lower if you exceed about 5% slip angle, wich means your g force gets lower, wich means you can´t corner as fast.

>>16812307
that only matters when you have to get out of the turn- shifting your weight.

in a turn you simply accelerate, putting more g-force behind you.

it's a balance, drift too much and you'll slow down, but stay gripped, and you'll be locked into a wide angle around the track.

>>16812311
>*in a circle

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>>16812294
>>16812302
>>16812307
In a circle you would actualy get slower when exeeding about 5% slip angle.
>>16812311
But you loose lateral force when you accelerate since you increase your slipangle
pic related shows the maximum acceleration your tires can handle vs slip angle

>>16812311
further explanation- you want to be a little bit slower while slipping, but accelerating through it, pointed into the turn, and riding a smaller line toward the center of the track.

if you have too much grip, your top speed will be throwing you sideways, rather than the angled drift.

>>16812329
you're wrong cause you keep failing to visulize my point. the fastest line is on the inside, it doesn't matter if you're a little slower.

slide your car out and power through it, then you can ride the inside.

>>16812332
In a circle both cars would take the same line, wich means both experice the same latheral force at when driving the same speed.
But the car driving closer to the 5% slaip angle can handle more latheral force and is therefore faster.

>>16812332
also when I say "slide your car out" I'm not talking about initial d drifting. too tight or too loose on the track are both flaws in a racing oval. you want to ride the knife's edge of losing control

>>16812338
>In a circle both cars would take the same line
holy shit you're retarded.

>>16812343
If the circle is the same diameter for both, both take the same line. (atleast with the front wheels)

>>16812351
no, nigger. fuck off now

>>16812356
Wich different line could you possibly take on a circle with a given radius?

>>16812359
the line created by the geometric difference in the slip you fucking retard. If your back end is out, you are on a fundamentally different line than someone using full grip

you're such a fucking nigger. I'm pissed off.

>>16812362
So the grip focussed car can take the circle on the inside relativel to the drifting car?

>>16812377
No, the opposite. The grip focused car will have all forces pushing laterally, keeping him on an outside line relative to a drifting car at the same speed (using more engine power). because THAT guy is directing the energy lost in the slide into correcting his direction. His back end has to work harder, but he can drive into forces the grip focused driver cannot- utilizing the 'drift' angle.

This ONLY works on an oval where you stay in the turn. In natural turns (Corners), you want to maximize the speed at which you leave the turn so you can accelerate on the straight and overtake. On an oval track, you can be a little slower and perpetually on the inside.

It's a different racing philosophy.

>>16812386
>>16812377
Watch NASCAR. You'll hear the drivers discuss how tight or loose their car is. They're discussing grip in the turns.

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>>16812386
The gripfocussed car has can handle higher acceleration due to the optimised slip angle, so it can corner with about 10-20% more acceleration.

If you step on the throttly you loose these 10-20% total acceleration and move outwards or slow down.

for comparisson look at the position of both styles of driving on the slipangle/total acceleration chart:
the total available force from a low slipangle is higher than from a high slipangle

>>16812437
true nigger. still arguing like they're on the same lines

fucking nigger. I knew you were a nigger, but I posted real information anyway. God damn it. Fucking nigger.

>>16812446
I am Fahle, not a negroid.

Back to topic:
The circle shaped road is the same for both cars, so both have to pick retty much the same line.
The grip car however can move its centre of gravity closer to the inside since its rear end doesn´t swing out at a high angle.

Also you still have to explain me how a car can possibly turn faster with lower total acceleration, as far as I know cornering faster means higher acceleration.

>>16812471
in what fucking barbie ken dollhouse fantasy land can a grip nigger stay on the inside line of a track, stay as fast as everyone else, and not slide out to the outside? you're a fucking absolute nigger.

>>16812476
The grip focused driver can stay inside the track since he utilises the maximum total accelleration (about 1,1G for good tires) of his tires, shown in the picture above.
If someone would use a higher slip angle he would would loose total acceleration (about 1,0G with the same tires) and couldn´t stay on the track.

>>16812476
m8, not even in time attack on the Nürburgring in the Karusell corners would it be possible for a drifter to outcorner a grip car.
If it would be possible, someone would do that.

>>16812516
>>16812552
>nigger crew can't even fathom a track that's too fast for grip

CIRCLE

>>16812559
By incresing your slipangle (drifting) you decrease your total available tire grip (diagramm above).
If you step on the accelerator wheith nor more available grip, you change the vector of the applyed force, but keep the force itself the same sice you only have limited grip.
When you lower your cornering force, you increase the cornering radius.
When you increase the cornering radius at the same cornering force you need more time for the circle.

with a lot of fwd cars you want to upset traction to turn

>>16810586
Take a bath

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>>16810307