Soon br/o/thers, engines will be camless. No more camshafts,

>>15784319
>exhaust valve timing replaces the EGR function thanks to Mercedes.
Yeah, this implementation of EGR only works at cruising and light throttle for emissions purposes. It cannot be used to cool the combustion under high load, still requiring overfuelling to accomplish that.

>No more camshafts, no more timing chains/belts.
To be replaced with a system that's much more expensive and much less reliable. Not happening.

> Intake valves now control the intake quantity.
Even BMW valvetronic still needs a throttle upstream for a multitude of reasons, two of which are reliability, response and preventing excessive valve lift mechanism wear.

All of these ideas are on the older side, but no one opts to use or rely on them, why?

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Switching perfectly fine mechanics to software that only the dealerships can access...

As a computer guy and car enthusiast I can't say I'm too happy with this.

Isn't this form of "EGR" similar to how Caterpillar ACERT engines operate? Making somewhat of a theoretical variable displacement?

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>>15784319
>No more camshafts, no more timing chains/belts.

>On top of this, they will no longer have EGR valves, exhaust valve timing replaces the EGR function thanks to Mercedes.

>You also have BMW to thank for the removal of the throttle body. Intake valves now control the intake quantity.

>A camless, EGRless, throttleless engine completely controlled by computers.

Soon? The future is here

>>15784364
You seem to be focusing on the limitations of these systems as they stand right now.

>To be replaced with a system that's much more expensive and much less reliable. Not happening.
Much less reliable and more expensive, AT THE MOMENT. We used to think the same of computer controlled ignition timing.

>Even BMW valvetronic still needs a throttle upstream for a multitude of reasons, two of which are reliability, response and preventing excessive valve lift mechanism wear.

So far.

As for
>Yeah, this implementation of EGR only works at cruising and light throttle for emissions purposes. It cannot be used to cool the combustion under high load, still requiring overfuelling to accomplish that.

The EGR systems as they currently stand aren't always engaged either. As far as I've read, the exhaust valve trapped inert gas works just as well as the recirculated system.

Ecoboost is better

>>15784449
Wow, i love this meme

You're so funny

>>15784449
Eco-boost is awesome, it supposedly gets 17 miles to the gallon. It's just too bad none of them have actually made it 17 miles to know for sure.

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square cam profiles are neat in theory but shit, I worked at a dealer and had to do a shit ton of recall/TSB related reprograms due to XYZ bullshit. What if theres a weird software glitch and valves collide or there is valve-to-piston contact?

This shits interesting as fuck in theory. Don't know how reliable it'll be for 10 years in a vehicle type deal.

pic unrelated

>>15784461
t. GM fangirl

>>15784447
>as well as the recirculated system.
Almost, Toyota introduced water cooled egr on gasoline cars that does boost the efficiency of the egr a little allowing a slight bump in fuel economy over a traditional egr system.

The need for the throttle body maybe there for systems that need the manifold vacuum. There's a youtube video of a mechanic running a valvetronic motor with no intake manifold attached and it idled and controlled engine speed just fine.

>>15784462
You mean, more damage than current cars with throttle by wire, steer by wire... the modules are responsible for so much of the vehicles operation that a glitch could instantly put you into a spin on the highway, jam the throttle open, blow the airbags, slam on the ABS.... heck even the modern variable timing systems could mesh your valves into the piston head.

We're already careening straight for a 100% computer controlled engine, the timing chain is just the next step.

>>15784482

Idling in limp mode is fine, let him try to drive it with no IM, he'll find out quickly why the throttle body is there.

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>>15784493
very few vehicles have steer-by-wire, electric power steering isn't the same thing. Drive-by-wire, I've had a vehicle throttle stick open, throw it into netural, works on non-retarded vehicles.

if you get ABS failure in an EBD-equipped car just kiss your ass good bye though.

>>15784482
>The need for the throttle body maybe there for systems that need the manifold vacuum

The modern valve-tronic engines use a vacuum pump to generate vacuum, the same way diesel engines do to generate brake boost.

Mercedes Diesel engines also use a throttle plate regardless of their lack of need for one, not to regulate throttle, but as a quick means of dropping temperature.

Of course the BMW valvetronic engines aren't diesels, but they may still have the throttle as a means of rapidly dropping temperatures as well, or snuffing the engine as an emergency precaution, such as a stuck valve.

>>15784533
>very few vehicles have steer-by-wire
And more of them will. Mercedes is making drastic moves toward it.

Even with normal electric racks, ever had a failure of an electric power steering rack on a heavier vehicle like a GL? No amount of upper body strength will stop the vehicle from turning off the road. You're pretty much fucked.

>Drive-by-wire, I've had a vehicle throttle stick open, throw it into netural, works on non-retarded vehicles.
Typical drivers aren't taught to do that, nor are most of them smart enough to figure it out.
And I don't doubt they'll make the procedure of shifting to neutral retardedly overcomplicated soon anyways... have you driven the new Mercedes GTS yet? Shifting to neutral is no longer a simple matter of pushing up on the knob.

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>>15784562
Like I said, non-retarded vehicles.

Have you ever driven a vehicle without power steering before?

>>15784582
Yeah, my first two cars didn't have power steering.

They're not as hard to turn as people make them out to be, unless you're stationary or going slow of course.

The big frustration of dead hydraulic racks is you're now pushing against the hydraulics.

Dead electric racks are somewhat easier to turn.

But a malfunctioning electric rack on a heavy vehicle can overpower you regardless of effort.

Maybe your Cuckmobile won't faggot, I'll still be rocking a cammed rollered 4 barrel carbed pushrod v8 like a true og gangster hardcore motherfucker

>>15784599
Until its illegal. Which is soon.

>>15784607
Then you can come and take it along with my "illegal guns"

>>15784598
if I can steer a non-running Montero out of a shop then a random dildo can steer a GL without power steering.

I don't really know what was wrong with the PRNDL set up for AT cars. Into neutral was a nice and easy push forward on the shifter, no button or brake pedal depress required.

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>>15784319
>completely controlled by computers.

>>15784618
The idea is to deny you your e-test, which means the next time a cop pulls you over, your vehicle is taken away.

It's for your own good citizen.
We're here to protect you from your hydrocarbons.

>>15784623
You're not reading correctly.

I'm not referring to a DEAD power steering rack overpowering you, I'm referring to a malfunctioning one overpowering you.

As in, it's reacting as if you're trying to turn hard right, and then pulls the steering hard right.

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>>15784673
That.... sounds terrifying

>>15784618
Wait, your car is... HUMAN operated?
Do you know how dangerous that is? Humans are responsible for 100% of car accidents.

You know overriding the autopilot is illegal right?

>>15784562
>>15784533
>>15784493
even with you car with jammed full open throttle
you can stop the car using the brakes

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>>15784703
EBD effectively turns the brake pedal into a suggestion pedal.

You're not creating any significant pressure in the master cylinder. The brake pressure is all created in the ABS/TCS module and distributed from there.

If you had some sort of fuck hueg fault in the ABS/TCS system, just throw it into neutral and hope you have a parking brake you can throttle.

>>15784689
Yeah, it was when I first encountered it.

Of course, it was towed in for that very problem, so we were testing it at low speed (luckily it fucked up on the customer at low speed too).

Fucking thing just wrenched the wheel out of my hands and made a hard right. Stopped it before it hit other parked vehicles.

If that had happened on the highway, I don't want to know what would have happened.

The failure is very rare, but I can't think of a way they could make sure it never happens again.

>>15784703
>applies to lolnopwr only

>Modularizing everything and handing over all control to a central computer system

The EE geek in me really wants to see this happen( please ignore all the HURR DURR doomsayers in here, there are massive efficiency advantages to abstracting away every part of the cars operation to software),.......... yet the car guy in me is too much of a mechanical purist to accept this.

>>15784703
Not anymore. That's the point of this thread really... everything is going computer controlled.

Everything.

And I can guarantee you the safety rules and etest rules coming up in the future are going to render pretty much everything else illegal.

>>15784728
that apply american V8 with 500 hp and shit load of torque

>>15784724
that why there is a E brakes usually
but i doubt that can append it has to be failsafe system

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>>15784765

>>15784776
My saying parking brake you can throttle, what if it happens and you're doing 65 mph and your BMW/Audi/VW/Mercedes dosent want to apply the electronic parking brake at speed?

Either a pedal or a lever, but then again they're on the way out.

>>15784765
i don't see your point here
throttle by wires works quite well if you ignore the input lag etc

>>15784763
The point of all of this is to make improvements entirely software based.

Take the E class for instance.
The 2016 E class has basically the same sensory equipment on board as the 2017 model. But the 2017 model now has autonomous driving capability... How you ask? Software updates.

We squeeze more and more power out of the same engines. How? Software updates.

We tune traction control to do incredible things. How? Software updates.

The more of the vehicle we make completely computer reliant, the more we can improve it with software updates.

The trade-off I hate is that you can no longer simply tear down an engine and modify it as you like, it's pretty much locked in as OEM or nothing now.

For the mechanics on here, that basically means dealerships are where the money is, and only where the money will be. Third party shops will increasingly be incapable of repairing modern vehicles, as they will require proprietary programming every time you replace a component.

>>15784800
i don't see why having brakes by wire will make them more likely to fail

>>15784812
By combining throttle by wire and brake by wire, you're relying on the engine and brake modules to know if you're intending to accelerate or decelerate. If it thinks you're trying to accelerate and opens the throttle wide, do you really think a deceleration command is going to make sense to it?

Either the user wants to accelerate or decelerate, the user can't have both.

>>15784840
it will either do both and the brakes win or cut the throttle and apply the brakes

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>>15784831
With a dual-split braking system, you have 2 separate systems. One part of the master cylinder feeds lets say LF&RR and the other part of the master cylinder feeds RF&LR brakes.

If you lose a line, one piston in the master cylinder will bottom out and physically contact the other piston and you will still have braking power.

Pedal will be low as fuck and you'll have less than half the efficiency but you'll still beable to stop the car. Ask me how I know.

>>15784831
Exactly. There are too many faggot contrarians on /o/ who dont seem to understand just how much testing and QA happens before any new technology is released to the wild. There a lot of engineers out there far more paranoid and competent that people here think.
>>15784840
....................................these systems are FAR more sophisticated than that.

>>15784831
>computer systems never have bugs lmao!!1

>>15784397
The people who are heavily interested in computers and electronics are always the ones who dislike them the most.
All the computer illiterate normies are the ones who want to see them embedded into everything.
Everything is assbackwards these days.

>>15784867
this
I like new tech but I like my cars to be as simple as possible

>>15784860
Point is, that depends on the programming.

What if it's the module that's making the error?

>>15784831
Wiring and connectors fail all the time; suddenly and easily. The operation of mechanical actuators were impervious to heat, EMF, code quality, electrical component quality, rodents and moisture. Failure modes while rare were also long-term before complete failure, in this case 'disconnection'.

>>15784893
>>15784865
>"IM THE ONLY PARSON THE WORLD WHO KNOES WHAT A SPOF IS LAWL!"

>>15784911
>im right ur wrong xD

>>15784865
yeah humans makes less mistakes
>>15784893
that a good point but a mechanical system implies there will be friction part moving against each others and it's more likely to fail
i don't had any connector fail on me in my car and it has 222 000 km

>>15784911
this. it's like people ITT haven't heard of the concept of redundancy in design and engineering.

>>15784942
>redundancy
>in a car thats built as cheap as possible
keep dreaming clown

>>15784951
not every country is China m8.

>>15784942
I don't doubt the engineers do their best to ensure redundancies are present.

I also don't doubt the accountants ability to remove those redundancies because it costs a few cents more than they want.

>>15784932
mechanical brakes have been pretty good so far

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>>15784957
yeah i forgot the american car industry was booming

>>15784966
I'm German.
>>15784961
There are too many regulations in place nowadays for them to even begin dreaming of risking a fine by violating these.
>inb4 VW emissions scandal

>>15784942
Look past the tip of your nose. If an engineer is blind to his defects, what are the chances both systems will prove to be identically defected?
The problem is that for the sake of system 'control and economy' (of production), they're raising the stakes on slimmer odds. One stack overflow clusterfuck on your drive by wire machine and you'll go ploughing in any direction that serendipity happens to take you.

>>15784505
That's what he did. The car was parked outside and didn't have the manifold on. He wanted to see if he could drive it in like that.

>>15784964
i agree but brakes by wire makes ABS more efficient
that doesn't mean hydraulics brakes aren't fine thought

>>15784978
The accountants won't take the blame, they never take the blame, they'll just point at the engineers and claim they weren't able to find a cheaper way to do it.

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>>15784986
>drive it in

How has no one brought up Koenigsegg?

>>15784397
This, added complexity increases possibility of the failure in the system, thus in general I dislike excessive computerisation of cars. I think that the golden level of amount of electronics was achieveved between 2005-2010. anything after that is excessive. Parking sensors, tire pressure thingies are just gimmics, which aren't that reliable or necessary, but expensive in repair. In europe car makers focused on enviroment after 2005, particularly germans, and it shows in bad quality. DPF filters in diesel, biodegradable paint that makes cars rust in 2 years, poorly designed engines on the terms of enviromental hippies. Electronics, which break down and are expensive to fix. No thanks. People should drive only cars they understand how they work.

>>15784461
everyone knows "eco" is just a selling point for moms who want to justify owning a 350hp grocery getter

>>15785628
Nig guhhhhhh

>>15785459
shit company

>>15784831
It doesn't make them more likely to fail, what it does is make it so that you can't do anything about them failing.

And that's what's scary.

>>15784942
>People literally dying so companies can save a few cents in scrap metal costs for parts
>Wanting anything in your car to be left exclusively to factory quality.

>tfw marine diesels have been fucking around with this since the 90's

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>>15784415
>ACERT

Triggered

>>15784397
Drive by wire for everything is good in a security aspect. When Onstar gets a request from the police to stop a fleeing car, the Onstar service typically commands the computer to reduce fuel to the fuel injectors.

Thus the car gradually stops instead of suddenly stops. The provides a safer non-crashing stop.

>>15784599
>cammed
>pushrod

>valve solenoid causes the valve to stick open
>ruined engine
>on a 4 valve v8 there are 32 similar points of failure

>>15784726
dealer tech?

i had an issue back when i worked for honda.
A newer CRV was having battery problems and it would occasionally LOCK the steering as I was trying to pull it in, not from the steering column lock but the actual electric motor felt like it was disabling itself. Shit was the first time i actually feared new car technology

>>15784864
real world always finds a way to fuck your "QA and testing"

ALWAYS

in nearly every single fucking field of engineering

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>>15788848
>4 stroke engine without cam
keep away from cars wil ya

>>15784932
guess who makes these "perfect" systems

>>15789685
I used to work at a paintball pro-shop for a few years, I feel pretty comfortable around pneumatics and I have some concerns about long term reliability with this (mostly in the power supply), but that design is unlikely to get stuck with a valve opened.


It's not shown in that picture but there is a compressed air supply going into those solenoids, and energizing them vents the air into a ram that you can see will depress the valve, pushing against that big return spring. inside those solenoids is a electromagnet opened air valve and a sprung ram, it's a simple and fairly reliable design. constant oiling is also going to be a really great feature as well.

so if something fails, it will mean valves will fail to open. at worst, other than an outright valve failure, it may mean reduced lift or a sluggish opening.

ie: error states that are probably easy to detect and mitigate for, that wont do permanent damage to anything.

>>15784319
Cant wait to get rid of shitty cams. Electronic valves will be best of both worlds economy and performance.

>>15784319
another technology making sure todays cars wont last more than 20 years.

sooner or later one of these will malfunction and trash the engine.

>>15784319
so 40k for an engine that should cost 2k gotcha what a deal

>>15790754
>so if something fails, it will mean valves will fail to open

if something MECHANICALLY fails. There is an entire world of electronics behind that with another layer of software beyond.

So it's fuel injection all over again

>some efficiency gains, mostly used for saving gas in endurance races and getting better slightly better emissions scores while coal plants chug away in the distance and indians buzz around on two stroke scooters with straight pipe exhausts
>mechanical nightmare, even more modes of failure that are even less accessible to home mechanics

>>15784765
Safety rules will never mandate more failure prone systems. That's fucking dumb.

If a throttle cable snaps you're pretty good. You're not going anywhere but slower and slower until you're down to idle.
If the TPS is fucked you're fucked

Now, emissions rules?

>>15791369
Things like that don't already happen?

>>15785626
Your age is showing, golden level was achieved in the early 90s. Everything since then has been bloat.

>Module For EFI
>Module for ABS
>Module for Climate Control

Everything you need and is improved by computer control, nothing that isn't.

>>15791432
>Safety rules will never mandate more failure prone systems. That's fucking dumb.
You don't really understand how government and politics works do you?

>>15788697
>letting onstar control your vehicle when you are fleeing an oppressive authoritarian system that has no valid purpose for existence

JUST

>>15792165
don't be afraid, it'll be better for us, anon

>>15784319

too little too late for the ICE. by the time all of this cool stuff would be able to be used in mainstream passenger cars they will already be electric.

>>15784864
Despite all this testing, many vehicles with keyless entry systems can be hacked into. Tell me more about how overengineered and impervious to error everything is

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>>15792170

>>15784431
kys

>>15784319
>one valve solenoid fails stuck open
>piston crunches valve
>now you need an engine, or at the very least a new solenoid, valve, piston, and rod
>none of which are cheap in the slightest

Don't fix what ain't broke. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a conventional camshaft with double roller gears and chain. Belts are ok too but only if you're not a retard and can maintain a vehicle.