Is push-button start a fad, or is turn-key ignition a thing of

>>13801663
What are the true advantages of a button over a key, when a wireless fob is still required? Seems like a transition of media, and that's about it.
Personally, I enjoy the smooth sound of the key displacing all the cylinder teeth when it slides in, but preferences hardly make changes.

What happens, with these new wireless key push-button-start vehicles, if you drive off without the key after it's started?

Never understood the point. Give me a mechanical key any day.

>>13801663
>tfw push button start was a thing in the '30s.

I don't think something that's 80 years old can be called a fad.

I remember a time when you could knot your car keys to the laces of your swim trunks and go swimming with them, and electronic keys have removed this freedom without introducing anything useful, not to mention the jamming vulnerability of remote locking, so they're a failure in my book.

>>13801760
it will turn off

push to start is going to become the new norm until something "fancier" comes along. it really offers no advantages, it's just something for normies to feel good about because their car is so "advanced".

>>13801810
It's legal for cars to deliberately turn off in the middle of driving? Didn't GM lose one and a half billion dollars over a similar scenario?

>>13801760
The car senses how far away the "key" is at all times. It shuts off once it's between 5-10 feet away from the outside of the car.

>>13801663
Why hasn't someone shooped this into a stop posting button yet?

>>13801769
Push button alone is retarded, but god-tier if paired with keyless entry.

>>13801814
it won't even get out of a driveway. you can get out and grab something inside the house and the car will stay on, but if you leave the key inside the house and try to move it, it will shut off.

>>13801739
No tumbler mechanism to eventually fail, like the brass dust cover on my Ranger's, leaving me stranded until I could take the ignition switch apart and dig out the old mangled brass while a tow truck driver licked his chops just waiting for me t o walk away.
No digging keys out of your pocket after you already sat down, or digging in your purse.

>>13801841
But how far away is too far away? What if the driver is standing right next to it and you drive away?

>>13801826
This. It truly is a glorious feeling walking up to your car and not having to pull your keys out to do any actions

>>13801847
You wouldn't even be able to get into your car with the keys still in your pocket if it weren't for proximity locks. With regular manual keys or even remote locking button keys this isn't even a possibility.

>>13801826
Basically this. Retards in this thread oppose most technology on the basis of not understanding it

>>13801826
Keyless entry isn't what you think it is. You're thinking of a proximity key.

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>>13801790
Hey poorfag, if you ever had a remote fob, you would be aware that there is a real key inside, and the fob can be left in your glovebox.

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>>13801826
This. My car has keyless entry and push button. I never have to fumble around to get my keys anymore.

>>13801821
Nope. It shuts off when the fob is no longer in range.
I warm up my car every morning while I get my last minute shit together in the house before work. It's more like 100'.

>>13801810
That sounds dangerous. What if there's some problem where the car thinks the key is gone but it's not?

>>13801891
>Retards in /o/
FTFY. /o/ seems to be very against change compared to many other car communities. People here dislike radical design changes, luxury features, etc.

>>13801821

Actually it needs to be as close as the drivers seat to drive.

>>13801760
My car detects if the key is not in the cabin. When it's in park, it will stay on. If you try to put it in drive while the key is not in the cabin, the car will shut off.

>>13801877
Not everyone lives in some shithole where you have to lock your car in yourn own garage, or driveway though.

I have sat down a million times with my keys still in my pocket.

>>13801931
So what happens if you, say, threw the key out of the window while driving?

Also seems like you'd be open to jamming, which could shut your car down remotely.

>>13801939
Regardless of where you live or how safe you think it is, it's absolutely moronic not to lock your car when you leave its sight. Enjoy getting your car stolen eventually and losing your insurance coverage because it was unlocked.

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>>13801903
>Every single manufacturer calling it keyless entry
>HUURDDUUUR ACKCHULLY ITS PROXIMITY KEY

>>13801945
I'm not sure what happens in that scenario. I'd expect the car to beep and go into limp mode until it's turned off.

I do not miss having my keys rubbing on my knee, but the button is sort of tragic looking. I'm starting my car not doing a load of laundry.

>>13801945
Or a jammer signal to keep the car from locking itself while you walk away without paying attention because "it does it automatically", and then it's stolen.

>>13801954
It IS a type of keyless entry, which is a technology that has existed for decades. Are you stupid or have you just always driven shiboxes without keyless entry?

>>13801945
Engine will stay on until you turn it off. Better hope you don't stall at an intersection

>>13801945
There is a port for the fob in the dash just in case the battery is low. You can still drive with the battery dead, and the internal proper key unlocks the door oldschool status.
The car doesn't shut off immediately, a light pops up and lets you know.

>>13801964
If you jam the signal, then the car won't detect the key and will lock itself because it thinks you've left the area.

I predict a HUGE uptick in stolen cars in the nearish future. Especially since the firmware in essentially fixed in vehicles, it's inevitable that unpatched and widely-known exploits will emerge. EVERYTHING is hacked eventually.

>>13801999
Your prediction is made from a place of ignorance, Mr. Dunning.

>>13801945
the same thing that would happen if you threw your normal car key out the window while drive
>caveat old GM products

>>13801999
It actually makes cars harder to steal.
Enjoy your cartoons, Saturday morning is almost here!

>>13801999
>implying retards who steal cars have the technical knowhow to reverse engineer cryptosecure RF transmissions

>>13802014
But throwing an old screwdriver out onto the highway sounds irresponsible and dangerous.

>>13802024
>implying people who break into houses don't have RF scanners to capture garage door codes

I'm sure car thieves aren't far behind.

>>13802030
exactly, which is why nobody would do it, and the screwdriver manufacturer coudlnt' possibly be blamed.

>>13801945
>So what happens if you, say, threw the key out of the window while driving?

What's with these scenarios? What happens if you throw any of your other keys out the window?

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>>13801999
So you mean the car thiefs with high-tech equipment and knowledge will be able to more easily steal cars than when they just had keylocks?

>>13802036
>Implying those types of people wouldn't be able to steal anything anyway.

>>13802004
Auto companies are the ones operating in blissful ignorance. They're new to the digital security game and are in fuck a brutal ass-raping.

Even the best tech firms, who always keep security front of mind, know that essentially everything is exploited eventually, which is why they're always rolling out fixes and implore customers to keep up-to-date. If Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. can't keep their shit from being hacked, what hope do Mercedes, Ford, Hyundai, etc. have?

p.s. I've hacked my neighbours internet every place I've lived for free internets. Have a hacked playstation for free games. Have a jailbroken iPhone for free apps. Used to hack satellite TV for people. These are devices from billion dollar companies that literally have one job which is to make their systems unhackable.

>>13802078
You realize how much of computer security is dealing with INTERNET connected stuff? Cars aren't that. Secure radio transmissions are pretty well understand, they've been around since before electronic computers.

>>13802024
One nerd somewhere hacks it. The car thieves learn out how to replicate it on youtube.

>>13801905
Hey retard, you realise that the fob is what's needed for the push button start to work right? If the fob is in your glovebox all someone has to do is break your window, push a button, and steal your car.

>>13802094
They don't even have to break the window, just touch the door handle

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/

>>13802083
>You realize how much of computer security is dealing with INTERNET connected stuff? Cars aren't that.

Wrong.

http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/

>>13802052
Yes.

Cars were digital interlocks were pretty much un-stealable without ripping into the wiring, since there's a physical interface that's different for every car. But once you make it wireless you can hack any car with the same gear, which makes it a much more tempting prospect.

>>13802036
You're retarded if you think a garage rolling code is what cars use LOL

>>13802084
1. I'm a computer engineer and I know that 95% of us would be "white hat" hackers and would report the vulnerability for a reward rather than being malicious.
2. Even if someone was malicious and posted easy enough guides online to reproduce the exploit, it would very likely only affect a subset of cars from one manufacturer.

>>13802078
Because it is so easy to defeat locks and hotwire cars, defeating any proximity key system makes it 100x harder to steal...
You fucking autistic fucking computer nerd.

Go wash yourself, go outside and talk to a human, preferably a female.

>>13802078
nigga you ain't do shit, you're just some kid who reads Wired or whatever it is these days.

>>13802113
>Wrong.
No, right. You can't remotely kill something not connected to the internet.

>>13802113
>FCA
Discarded.

In all seriousness though, the exploit there was along the lines of FCA leaving a backdoor that can be accessed through Sprint's network. The moral of that is: don't fucking put backdoors in your software. Also don't fucking hardcode ISPs or carriers into your software. What happened with that bug was very poor software engineering.

>>13802123
>2. Even if someone was malicious and posted easy enough guides online to reproduce the exploit, it would very likely only affect a subset of cars from one manufacturer.
And then the guides would be found and it would be patched anyway.

>>13802100
Nope.
This feature is designed for vallet parking.
The car will only run for a couple of minutes when the internal master key is removed.

And that one idiot is wrong. My gf can stand next to me and try to push the button on the door to unlock, but it only allows me to unlock it because the proximity key senses where it is.

>>13802083
Huh?

Yes, you open yourself up to more attack-frontage when you have an internet connected car. But there's also an upside, in that if an exploit is identified it may be patchable with new firmware.

RF definitely is not secure. It's much much much less-so than a wired system, since all the traffic in both directions is visible to everyone.

>>13802135
>chevy has built in wifi
>implying other manufacturers aren't going to follow suit

No, wrong. Everything will be connected to the internet soon enough.

>>13802151
>But there's also an upside, in that if an exploit is identified it may be patchable with new firmware.
You think cars are incapable of being patched? Actually, you think ANYTHING not connected to the internet can't be patched?
>RF definitely is not secure. It's much much much less-so than a wired system, since all the traffic in both directions is visible to everyone.
That's not how radio encryption works.
>>13802154
So you think a wireless router and cell modem being IN the car means life critical systems are connected to it? Is your fridge connected to the internet because the router is in your house?

>>13802123
Even if some good samaritan finds an exploit, and decides to report it to the manufacturer while keeping it secret, what can the manufacture do with that information at the present time? It doesn't close the exploit, and some other guy with less pure intentions could come along and find it.

(the best way to play it would be to demand a bounty from the manufacturer, and release the exploit anyway because why not)

And cars are produced by the MILLIONS. Even if an exploit only affects, say, half of Volkswagens made between 2013 and 2015, that's MILLIONS of cars, and those are exactly the cars that are going to be targeted for theft.

>>13801663
The 2015 Nissan Rogue I got as a rental would not even start the engine if the keyfob wasn't inside the cabin. If I had it in my pocket and walked more than 10 feet or so away it would start beeping then shut off.

>>13802141
Patched how? Through a recall? How many people respond to recalls when it's not a highly-publisized safety issue?

>>13801821
So throw it out the window at highway speed and sue GM?

Got it

>>13802135
>You can't remotely kill something not connected to the internet.
>his delusions are this strong
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/07/18/cant-just-shut-it-off-anywhere-onstar-stops-stolen-camaro-during-police-chase/

>>13802154
>implying other manufacturers aren't going to follow suit
One can hope.

>it's just another electronic gizmo that will break
>because ignition cylinders never wear out. Being able to start a car with a screwdriver is a testament to their superiority.

>>13801968
>Push button to start
>In a manual

It's like you have no idea what /luxury/ is.

>>13802117
>you can hack any car
You make it sound so trivial. Explain how "you can hack any car". Explain the tools and procedures.

>>13802127
I doubt she'll be interested in a bunch of "uh" and "uhm" or a bunch of studdering.

>>13802220
http://jalopnik.com/5736774/how-hackers-can-use-smart-keys-to-steal-cars

Already been done.

>>13802197
>they can't be patched
>yes, they can
>but but no one would do it
Many people don't apply patches they receive through the internet, so what the fuck is your point?
>>13802203
>On Star
>theblaze
Yea...nice try dumbass.

>>13802215
Is there an actual point to this post?

>>13802231
...in this case, what they did was have one antenna in range of the key, and another by the vehicle. If you, say, keep your key on a keyring by the door, all they need to do is walk up to your front door (while still outside), and then bridge that signal to your car in the driveway.

>>13802215
>implying my 370z is anything close to luxury

>>13802232
>Many people don't apply patches they receive through the internet, so what the fuck is your point?

And thus many people have their computers, etc. hacked (or are open to hacks if anything tried). This would be the same.

>>13802117
You'd be saying the same shit about the internet if this conversation were taking place back then.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/style/keeping-your-car-safe-from-electronic-thieves.html?_r=0

>The most recent incident took place on a Monday morning 10 days ago. I was working at my kitchen table, which overlooks the street in front of my house. It was just after 9 a.m., when one of my perky-eared dogs started to quietly growl at something outside.

>I grabbed my coffee cup and wandered to the window, where I saw two teenagers on bikes (one girl, one boy) stop next to my 2013 gray Prius.

>I watched as the girl, who was dressed in a baggy T-shirt and jeans, hopped off her bike and pulled out a small black device from her backpack. She then reached down, opened the door and climbed into my car.

>>13801810
>>13801821
>>13801920
>>13801931
i dont know what kind of cars you guys drive, but i work as a valet and every car i have driven will keep operating normally until you shut it off. Most will even give you the option of restarting the car with out having the key present.

>>13802245
But that wasn't your point. Your point was that the internet allows for applying patches. But you can apply patches without the internet and patches delivered through the internet are not always installed. You were wrong, why can't you accept that?

>>13801922
I do dislike a lot of shit getting added to cars but there's absolutely nothing wrong with pushstart (assuming keyless entry)

>>13802269
I know that older cars had much larger proximity ranges with keyless start and entry. An old boss of mine had it on his E46 M3 and he'd start it a few minutes before closing up the store to warm the engine up a little. A colleague, for a joke drove it about 30 feet away before parking up. My manager freaked before he knew it was a prank.

It is less common with new cars, as far as I'm aware, though probably still a thing with some shitboxes that have "luxuries"

>>13802271
Obviously I know patches can be applied if you take the car to the dealership. My point is nobody will actually take their car into the dealership for software upgrades (people won't even upgrade the OS on their phones/computers when all they have to do is press a button).

In the future, when automakers and the public wake up to the security implications of these extremely computerized cars, cars will likely all be internet connected all the time, and will upgrade their firmware without user intervention. But until then I stand by my prediction that auto theft rates, which went way down when digital interlocks were introduced, will shoot back up.

>>13802266
Translation: I forgot to lock my door and am blaming technology for my fuck up. Plus who the fuck would steal a Prius of any car

>>13802078
Get a load of this l33t skid. I bet your cargo pant pockets are just filled to the brim.

>>13802232
>onstar is internet

Why back pedal now?
>You can't remotely kill something not connected to the internet.

>>13802313
Probably just want to steal stuff inside it.

>>13802313
Not so much the Prius, but the battery pack. You can offload it fast on Craigslist for $800-1000.

>>13802316
How is OnStar not an internet service?

>>13802374
It uses a WAN connection to transmit data and control signals. Older ones were more basic CDMA that used something like dialup to transmit information, but there was still data transmission of information over a wide area network.

>>13802417
How is OnStar not an internet service?

>>13801760
Every car company's push start works a bit differently. I worked for Nissan, the vehicle will just turn off if you try shifting into drive without the fob in the car.

Fun story though, some old lady lost the spare key fob in her car, so anyone at anytime could unlock, start and drive it.

>>13802438
Old people fuck up everything, though.

>>13801663
Proximity fobs are great, the starting is all controlled electronically now anyways. Especially on cold days, you can keep your gloves on and key in pocket to enter your vehicle and start it without removing them.

>>13801760
They will warn you that they will eventually shut off.

>>13802101
There is nothing about a proximity fob that makes a vehicle more or less capable of being vulnerable to that attack.

How common are chop-shops?

>Throw key out the window
>Bad things happen
>Blame keyless entry/push start for it

Are you people like clinically retarded?

>>13802231
Again, very high tech equipment and procedures. Those types of thieves would know how to steal any car anyway.

>>13802559
The kids on a bike in the NYT article above used the same technique apparently. Seems pretty trivial to do with cheap and available parts: all you're doing is amplifying the key's signal so the car thinks it's closer than it is.

>>13802510
Have you ever played a game with Punkbuster or with Ubisoft's spyware?
If you've got push start you could have your signal blocked for a second and the car would shut off.

>>13802590
>Have you ever played a game with Punkbuster or with Ubisoft's spyware?
Punkbuster yes, uPlay no.

>If you've got push start you could have your signal blocked for a second and the car would shut off.
That's not how it works. The car beeps and bitches about no key detected. If you're in park, it won't allow you to shift out of it; if you're driving, it bitches repeatedly and flashes the lights and shit. Trust me, my batteries in my prox key have gone too low to detect while driving, then I had to insert the key into a specific slot where the car could read the fob while it lacked enough power to transmit within the cabin.

>>13802590
Seems like something the cops would want to invest in: blast a car with RF jamming so it cuts out.

>>13801920
So what happens when your re driving, and the fob battery dies?

>>13802878
I only know about Audi's system, but there is a slot to insert the key if the battery is dead. Also the car warns you if the battery is low beforehand. So that means you're really not paying attention to let the battey die and deserve to crash trying to take it out your pocket and insert it.

>>13801814

Confirmed my dad drove my C6 atleast a mile away with the keys in my pocket. Never shutoff.

>>13802958
>>13801920
Have you ever driven a keyless start car before? They don't just shut off once the fob isn't in range, they will run until you shut them off. Also, Cadillacs bring up a warning when you try to shut the car off that the fob isn't in range so you know you're stranded if you shut the car off.

I used to be a valet and have had many a customer take their fob with them and never had any problems with the car suddenly stopping. Also, most newer cars will beep or honk when the driver gets out with the fob if it's running and the door shuts.

I hate it because you have to start it to use Accessories, unless I am missing something.

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>>13803035
Except the retards who stole Ollson's RS6 abandoned and torched the car because the owner still had the key and the engine shut off after a few hundred yards.

>>13803087
short press = accessories
long press = engine start

>>13803087
You have to depress the clutch to start it, thanks to fuckwit female and asian drivers lurching into parked cars in the '80s.

There is still OFF/ACC/ON positions.

>>13803153
>>13803132
It just flashes the dash lights at me. Idk maybe Subaru is special snowflake.

>>13803087
Don't put your foot on the brake, it'll go to accessory instead of start.

>>13803132
No, wrong.

Press without foot on brand/clutch is accessories
Press with food on brake/clutch is engine start

>>13801760
You get the "retard of the year" award

>>13803574
That's not how it is with the 2013 Nissan Altima. Short press for accessories, long press and brake for engine start

>>13803574
He's not wrong. It depends on the car. This is why you fucks need to RTFM instead of asking questions here.

>>13803690
Evey car I ever been in with push start was like that.
Ford, Chrysler, Fiat, Subaru, Hyundai, Mazda.
All the same. Shouldn't it be a standard?

>>13803124
>I am retarded

>The criminals weren't too clever, though, because they didn't think to grab the key from the owner's pocket, Car Throttle reported. That would have made the Audi much more difficult to start again, if they shut if off.

Exactly what I said, it runs until they shut it off.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/16/jon-olssons-1-000-hp-audi-rs6-avant-stolen-gunpoint-burned/

>>13802177
The issue with the jeep hack was that the hotspot IS connected to the canbus, essentially giving it access to any system in the car. If the hotspot was a completely separate system, the only way to control the car would have required physical access.

>>13803856
>If the hotspot was a completely separate system, the only way to control the car would have required physical access.
This is my entire point, why are you arguing with me?

>>13801826
Agree. Love my keyless entry / fob with pushbutton start.

>>13801954
Leave him alone, he's aspie as fuck.

>>13804367
>>13801954
Most manufacturers call them smart keys or something like that. Keyless entry usually refers to anything with remote locking.

GG fucbois.

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>>13804395

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>>13804415

just own a car with keyless entry/push start for a while, you'll have a hard time going back, its convenient as fuck

>>13801872
>>13801891
>>13801903
>>13801914
>>13804351
there's the smart fagg/o/ts
seems like /o/ is slowly coming around as the price of cars with those features falls into the /o/ budget range

>>13801841
Brought a car around my shop and did an inspection with no key in it

>>13801905
>leave the thing that starts your car inside it
B-b-but I took the key!

>>13802287
Brother has a 2013 Charger. He can remote start the car but in order to put it in gear and drive it you need to press the start button with the fob in the car.

>>13804367
Is everyone here a child who wasn't around for the introduction of keyless entry?

>>13804902
I'm 30, so yes. Still doesn't mean that guy arguing about the semantics of keyless entry isn't an autistic faggot.

>>13805032
How is he? You guys are referring to keyless entry like it specifically means proximity keys, but it doesn't. Hell call them 'smart' keys if you must. You need to be more specific to communicate effectively. Ineffective communication is a sign of autism.

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>>13801663
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U16OZ_9MaIM

>>13805092
the general industry nomeclature is to call proximity key functionality "keyless entry", it's kind of confusing yeah.

the act of being able to lock/unlock cars by a remote keyfob is so commonplace it isn't even listed on feature sheets anymore so it doesn't really have a "name"

>>13801847
Story time. My brother was driving dump trailer out of NYC. He had an issue with a radiator hose in which he had to pull over.

Within minutes. Tow driver comes up kmocks on window and says your getting towed you DONT HAVE A CHOICE. Gives him a card and tells him to tell his boss to call that number. He calls boss and says this guy is set on towing me. Boss says fuck that guy get out of there.

He rips into gear and disappears into traffic.

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>>13804819
>B-b-but I took the key!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You can take the physical key and leave the fob if you're going to the be somewhere that is unfriendly to electronics.

>>13804819
the point of taking the key is so you can lock the glove box if you give your car to a valet

>>13801760

Keks happen.

https://youtu.be/-aU09WT5rXg?t=195

>>13801760
So if I wanted to kill my friend. All I have to do is toss the key fob out the window while we are driving on the highway in busy traffic?

>>13805200
>the act of being able to lock/unlock cars by a remote keyfob is so commonplace it isn't even listed on feature sheets anymore so it doesn't really have a "name"
Yes, it does. It's keyless entry. You want proof? The industry generally calls is a proximity key, marketing calls is a smart key. It IS a type of keyless entry, but keyless entry simply means being able to open the door with a KEY. A remote is not a key.

>>13805350

Not sure if I can do that.

If I press the door lock button, the car unlocks again if the fob is still inside.

I haven't tried locking the door with the manual key to test that way out though.

>>13805777

I've done it with a 2015 Subaru. Ultimately, the system should be designed to give preference to the key.

>>13801868
reread the post you shit for brain.

>>13805622
You will need to shoot or stab him fatally first.

>>13801790
They just need to make them waterproof so you can use them as a suppository for people like you.

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eventully you'll get an app on your ipone to turn your car on and off. and then other future stuff.

>>13808776

Doesn't BMW already have this? I know Jeremy demonstrated something similar in his review of the i8.

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kek

>>13801663
It's planned obsolescence. If the push-start/ smart-key stops working, which it eventually will in most cars, you have to pay an exorbitant amount to reprogram the key. And it can ONLY be done at the dealers because only the manufacturer has the codes. A normal key - all you have to do is go to any locksmith and get the key remade if it somehow breaks. The car companies know this and that's why they are all moving to it now. It's a concerted money grab.

>>13812537
That isn't what planned obsolescence is and it's bullshit. These cost no more than a regular remote or immobilizer key.

I actually want a push-start with a usb-port key thing insert. Like the key is coded to the car and a replacement means recoding the car AND the key together... at the dealership. After that, you can push-start.

If somehow, the push-start does NOT work, you will have to call the dealership and they will re-program your usb to allow starting the car without push-button. Meaning as soon as you insert the usb, it will start up. However, you have a limited amount of time; you basically have to haul ass to the dealer.

What if the usb doesn't work or you lost it? Well shit son, its like losing your fucking car-keys. Physical ones...

Either spark it or you're a dumbass for losing the keys in the first place.

Sounds like a hassle, but this should be implemented in high-end cars...

But overall, I never had a problem with key ignition.

>>13801760
My Nissan LEAF lets you drive off if the FOB isn't in the car. You can't start it again or get it out of Park.

>>13811243
i'm actually sort of surprised by that, a safe should be an excellent faraday cage

>>13812537
>I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about

Try /x/ or /pol/ if you want people to believe your nonsense

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>>13817206
>a safe should be an excellent faraday cage

Depends on what it's made of.