Betsy DeVos rolls back Obama-era regulations preventing for-profit

>She added that nearly 16,000 defense claims that are currently being processed by the department will be fulfilled. "Promises made to students under the current rule will be promises kept," she stressed.

>Eight states and the District of Columbia filed a motion in federal court Tuesday seeking to retain the rules.

>"The borrower defense regulations provide critical protections for borrowers who were subjected to misleading and predatory practices by their postsecondary institutions," the motion says. It was filed in the case California Association of Private Postsecondary Schools v. Betsy DeVos.

>The Obama administration had led a crackdown on for-profit colleges accused of misconduct. The Corinthian Colleges chain was under heavy pressure from the Education Department when it shut down in 2015. In that case, more than 15,000 student claims for loan discharge because of fraud have been approved, totaling $247 million in loans.

>Last year, the ITT Technical Institute, one of the nation's largest chains of for-profit colleges, shut down, saying it couldn't survive sanctions by the department. The chain had been accused of misleading students about the success of its graduates and was at risk of losing its academic accreditation.

>Rohit Chopra, a senior fellow at the Consumer Federation of America, lamented DeVos' decision to revise the rules.

>"This will lead to more students saddled with debt they cannot afford with taxpayers left on the hook," Chopra said. "The current rules require schools that cheat their students to pony up funds for refunds. This helps to ensure that lawbreakers pay, not taxpayers."

>Betsy Mayotte, director of consumer outreach and compliance for American Student Assistance's Center for Consumer Advocacy, said the current regulations protect students who are misled into over-borrowing for underperforming programs.

>"Students shouldn't have the pause button hit on their consumer protections, and this isn't the time for the Department of Education to step back from their responsibility to protect federal loan borrowers," she said.

>But Steve Gunderson, president and CEO of the industry lobbying group Career Education Colleges and Universities, said in a statement that DeVos' actions would both protect students from academic fraud and "their schools from ideological efforts geared to destroy postsecondary career education."

>>149445
>The Education Department announced Wednesday that it will change two key Obama-era rules governing student loan forgiveness in cases involving fraud and misconduct by universities.
Don't need to read the rest, know that this will be a good thing. In any case, what happened to customer responsibility. It is your responsibility to research different products (loans) and determine which is best. It's nobody but your fault if you get scammed because you didn't do the homework.

Schools like Trump U?

>>149448
>I heard Obama-era roll back so I know it's a good thing.

Right! Now just for good measure, let's make good on that line of thinking by dismantling the FTC and Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, since there's no point in having agencies whose prime purpose is ensuring that low income and working class people aren't taken advantage of by extremely intricate multi million and billion dollar lending company/for profit college schemes with endless resources to put them on the financial hook. Screw off students! It's 100 percent your fault and should know a sophisticated Ponzi scheme no matter how elaborate!

Some of this stuff is more obvious than others. And it's always your responsibility to be informed on the educational and financial products you sign up for. But this isn't exactly the same as sending a prince from Nigeria your bank acct and routing info. It's closer to loan sharking and sub prime mortgage lending in the 2000s. These colleges knew what they were doing and needed a boot up their asses.

>>149448

Someone put this pretty well in another thread: consumers don't have time to be experts in literally every single field. Not everyone is an architect who can figure out if the house they bought is architecturally sound, not everyone is an automotive engineer who knows if their car is missing 2 dollar part of a key safety feature, not everyone is a food safety expert who can tell if a restaurant has proper kitchen cleanliness, and so on. While certainly the consumer can look into things and tell the obvious (the roof is leaking, the car is missing a wheel, there's rats everywhere, etc), they don't have the skill, tools, information, money, or time to research every single thing they do that isn't in their area of expertise or a big investment. This is why many of these government regulations exist in the first place, to get experts to vet things so random consumers have the information at their fingertips to make their risk-assessment job easier.

This is especially true for investigations that would require more time, money, and authority than the average consumer has. Imagine trying to take apart a car on the lot to figure out if a part was missing on the lot, or trying to get into the kitchen to see if they have rats. Chances are they'll kick you the fuck out.

With regards to these particular regulations, it appears to be about false advertising, namely overselling the success of a program, and who has to foot the bill. It also appears they aren't actually getting rid of it, but trying to rewrite it to make it more clear. Whether or not they'll actually deliver on the rewrite is of course up in the air, since the current administration seems to prefer slashing regulations instead of replacing them.

>>149454
> Someone put this pretty well in another thread: consumers don't have time to be experts in literally every single field.

Agreed, I'm all for consumer protection but...

> With regards to these particular regulations, it appears to be about false advertising, namely overselling the success of a program, and who has to foot the bill.

How are the courts to prove if a school is scamming a student or the student is simply a shitty student?

What’s to prevent a former student from suing say, Harvard, because they didn’t get the dream job they were expecting when they graduated with their women's studies degree?

>>149500
>How are the courts to prove if a school is scamming a student or the student is simply a shitty student?

ffs, government agencies & courts do that sort thing all the time.

>>149500
No expert but chances are the government looks for a pattern within a chain of schools to see if kids from a particular program have been getting screwed.

If only 5% of the Harved students fail to achieve what the school promised, then it is highly likely the gov will rule in the schools favor. On the other hand if 45%+ of students from Dervy are becoming burger flippers,despite having a decent academic history then the gov is going to look harder.

Other factors can include if the school has ever had any problems keeping their accreditation and career success rates of the high performing students. It is not an easy or fast process to do all of this, but just some logical steps.

>>149454
>>149500
>>149502
>>149507
I didn't realize schools were promising anything other than a degree. Is it about the way they advertise their programs and lying about how many kids end up with a job?

>>149509

Correct

Schools can't promise that you'll make a six figure salary and be banging bitches fresh out of the grad ceremony. However they do have hoops they have to jump through to keep their accreditation which says your degree is worth more than toilet paper.

Now some schools will take this a step further and say "We're partnered with X businesses in the community and have a 75% job placement after completing our program" which again will vary from school to school. The reality could also be X school is a laughing stock in the town as well.

The government doesn't have to prove nobody from a party/scam school ever got a good job. They just have to prove the schools claims were largely junk.

One thing to remember is that the schools that have the most to fear from all of this are the schools that approach education as a business. If you notice the state, historical, and ivy league schools are generally safe because they just use reputation and/or verifiable facts.

>>149510
> If you notice the state, historical, and ivy league schools are generally safe because they just use reputation and/or verifiable facts.

And yet they’re still suckering thousands of students out of bazillions of dollars every year with worthless degrees.

American doesn’t have an education system, we have an education business.

Now my buddy’s son just graduated high school and is going to Lawrence Tech for electrical engineering this fall, which is a smart move for him and he should get a decent gig out of it when he’s done but my buddy said that when his kid graduates, they’ll have spent round about $50,000 on that degree for him (and their daughter graduates HS in two years…)

>>149510
I'm pretty sure my degree was useless when it came to learning the actual practical stuf I needed to do the work. 75,000$ in debt and I leaned everything I needed to on the job in the first few months. The degree got me in the door, sure, but that's it. Seems like a tithe you have to pay to enter the workforce.

I'm ready to go back to technical trade school and apprenticeships. College is a waste unless you're in certain feilds.

>>149519
That has more to do with a multitude of factors than just the schools. Parents letting kids get degrees in fields that can't possibly pay back fee of attendance, a more educated work force, the drilling in that college == success, etc.

Really, its just captalism doing its job of selling a product at the expense of the consumer.

>>149520
See the above bit about educated workforce. There is simply a flood of highly qualified people but not many businesses wanting to take the time to do training. As a result you get the alphabet resume wars where you need degrees and certs just to make it past the clueless HR desk.

The only immediate solution to all of this is to slap the disney princess shit out of your kids and explain to them that if they go to college, its going to be for a degree that pays.

>>149520
>I'm ready to go back to technical trade school and apprenticeships.


You think it's any better there?

>>149526
>Actually learning the skills to do your job

Yes

>>149526
>>149529
I don't think degrees should be as valued as they are if you want to become a technician or get some blue collar job, but for careers in science, medicine, or engineering, college is the way to go.

>>149529
Then I hope you're content with working your dead-end menial job. If you want the skills and learning to elevate your career and get a stable, rewarding job, you're going to have to get higher education, especially in this age of information and automation. Even sanitation workers need degrees nowadays.

There's a reason the old have always urged the young to go to college; they're sore they never got their chance, and like Marlon Brando said, ended up as nobodies instead of contenders.

>>149543
>Then I hope you're content with working your dead-end menial job.
Funny

That's precisely why alot of people don't want to go to college

Plus the loans
And the unnecessary classes
And the shifty admin
And the exorbitant prices

>>149543
Menial job? Like lawyer, mechanic, chemist, architect? All traditionally apprenticeships and intern practices and trade schools.

Idk why anyone in those fields should have to pay out to learn bs humanities courses when they can be paid and learn the skills in half the time - and secure a position

>>149545
And if you don't go, you end up with that job with no opportunities at all. Rail at the system all you like because it's unfair, but don't turn your nose up at people with greater aspirations in life than you do.

Or do you think you've got what it takes to be the next one-in-a-million self-educated tycoon? Even if you were, why do you think so many wealthy businessmen invest in higher education?

>>149557
See
>>149555

>>149555
>>149561
>>149555
You're a lunatic if you think you can make it in most of those jobs without a solid degree. Even if you somehow know your job inside out (already unlikely with a lack of basic academic knowledge), why should anyone trust Joe Blow to represent them in court, prescribed them medicine, or design their house when there can hire professionals with good credentials?

You go to college not just to learn important information, but to prove you're competent enough to do the job you want to do. When people see a degree, they see concrete proof you're the right man to hire.

>>149566
And you're just some liberal elitist trying to keep the rest of us down.

>>149567
I'm exhorting you to better yourself through education, which not only teaches you useful information but the skills to use and adapt it. If I truly wanted to keep you down, I'd spray-tan myself orange and run for public office on an anti-intellectual platform, promoting the 'virtue' of ignorance.

Advice can be as bitter as medicine, but both are good for you. Please reconsider your stance, if nothing else.

>>149566
I don't need to go to college and amass a shit ton of debt to prove I'm competent. And all of those professions were traditionally apprenticeships?

And all of those professions are tested/licenced? Why do I need a degree and a master's on top of it if all I need to do is pass the test and be knowledgeable?

The whole thing is a bloody racket. Millions of people in incredible debt to do what, low level management?

You sound very closed minded and very beholden to authority.

>>149572
>I don't need to prove my knowledge if I KNOW!

Then you'd be completely fine if you realised the doctor treating you wasn't a real MD? Or your money was being managed by someone who flunked out of business school? Or your flight pilot never took a day of aviation studies in his life (e.g. Frank Abagnale)?

Forgive me for not rewarding your disregard for formal educations and credentials with my confidence. I would have thought such an outspoken admirer of 'real life-experience' would've understood my reservations by now.

>>149542
Because trade schools and the trades have their own issues just like degree colleges.

>>149555
>Menial job? Like lawyer, mechanic, chemist, architect? All traditionally apprenticeships and intern practices and trade schools.

Because those careers but mechanics, the fields got bigger much wider in scope. Mechanics you still have to basically put in a lot of time learning shit especially if you have a wide clientele like cars from multiple nations, industrial specialization or certification.

Underwater welders need basically commitment, time and money comparable with lots of degree programs. You have to be a certified welder and get experience as welder to gain mechanical aptitude, learn to swim, train at certain institutes (and those have rankings as well) for the Commercial diving institutes, put in HOURS and you need to pay tuition.

>>149572
>Why do I need a degree and a master's on top of it if all I need to do is pass the test and be knowledgeable?

Be real. How likely do you think it is that anyone could legitimately pass the tests to become a doctor or lawyer without actually going to law or medical school?

>>149509
When you graduate you will start getting surveys from your school once or twice a year and monthly begging for gibs. The surveys are tabulated into an infographic that schools will use in advertising of "X% of students got placements in their field, Y% say they make a good salary, Z% say they are happy with their education" and so on. You can find them on most sites if you look hard enough.

>>149519
>And yet they’re still suckering thousands of students out of bazillions of dollars every year with worthless degrees
I believed this too until the first few rounds of hiring i got to sit in on for my company. I blame schools with maybe 33% on advertising and "be who you want to be" feel good crap. Not everyone gets to be an astronaut. Especially not when so many kids come through our doors lacking basic skills for the field. They have the degree, we know they passed discrete, data structures and a capstone of some sort. Cant write fizzbuzz, doesnt know what a pointer is, printf is fucking everywhere and never removed. Something like 4/5 come through the door and have never written a line of code unless it was getting a grade. Its shitty that universities and colleges are happy to sell off african dance theory and feminist studies for six figures but honestly these stem kids aren't much better. They all have a mentality that the degree = $$$ even if they cant do the work that comes with it.

>>149593
Doctor and lawyer and all that should have a formal education. But over here in computer science, security and engineering its actually an option to just go take certification tests. Just as an example CSSP and SEC+ cost around $1500 and maybe a month or two of studying to get and typically will muscle out a relevant degree on your resume.

>>149593
>>149585
You guys are saying that going to school is a better way to learn how to do a job than to apprentice under someone doing the actual job

That's retarded

>>149620
If you haven't taken a ton of classes then 99% of anything past the very bare basics will go in one ear and out the other if you try to apprentice with a doctor or lawyer, right?

Besides, a couple years of hands-on internships is already a part of the law and medicine curricula in the US.

>>149647
Isn't that what highschool is for?

Besides the argument isn't that additional schooling is beneficial or not - it's that it's not worth the cost they place on it

Yo Trump said He will remaster MW2 if China builds a wall for him

>>149647
>Isn't that what highschool is for?

What are you talking about? A high school education was never intended to prepare you to go straight into the field as a doctor or lawyer without taking any college classes in between.

And yeah, there's a lot of jobs where it's pretty reasonable for someone to do without a college education. But lawyers and doctors do not fall into that category.

>>149543
>Electrician
>Dead end menial

I don't know what the prof have crammed into your head, but you don't need to go to college for everything. Hell the top innovators in the tech industry tend to shy away from the group think institutes.

Furthermore shit like construction, plumbing, etc isn't going anytime soon.