So I have a question about the origin of the phrase "designated

>>986878
DESIGNATED

>>986888
I don't get it. What's being designated? The service? Designated as what? Or in what way? What does "service" mean in the context? I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why "designated service" means "b-unit".

Is this the same as "trail only" as I've never heard of designated service before this.

Or are all these motors dead in tow?

I think this is one of those things that just never really occurs because the engine will be taken out of service instead and repaired.

>>986948
I'll copy-paste the FRA language:

From FRA Part 223, Section 223.5:
>Designated service means exclusive operation of a locomotive under the following conditions:
>(1) The locomotive is not used as an independent unit or the controlling unit is a consist of locomotives except when moving for the purpose of servicing or repair within a single yard area;
>(2) The locomotive is not occupied by operating or deadhead crews outside a single yard area; and
>(3) The locomotive is stenciled “Designated Service—DO NOT OCCUPY”.

From FRA Part 223, Section 223.11:
> (d) Each locomotive [except for yard locomotives and certain others built before 1980] which, as a result of an act of vandalism has a locomotive cab window that is broken or damaged so that the window fails to permit good visibility—
> (1) Shall be placed in Designated Service within 48 hours of the time of breakage or damage or
> (2) Shall be removed from service until equipped with certified glazing in the following manner:
> (i) If the broken or damaged window is a part of the windshield of the locomotive cab, all of the forward and rearward end facing glazing locations of the locomotive cab must be replaced with certified glazing.
> (ii) If the broken or damaged window is a part of the sidefacing window of the locomotive cab, all of the sidefacing glazing locations of the locomotive cab must be replaced with certified glazing.

Anyway the idea I get from the definition is that it's another word for a b-unit. My understanding is in the past, this used to be more common, that railroads would rebuild a wreck but not want to shell out the cash to rebuild the cab up to the standards the FRA requires for operator equipment, so they could use the rebuilt wreck as a b-unit, and they'd just weld the doors shut.

>>986955
Not really.

Because if you cannot occupy it you cannot inspect it and if you cannot inspect it you cannot use it for motive power.

It's just a way of forcing railroads to comply with the glazing rule I feel.

I've also seen the term "Assigned Service" while searching around; that may be the term the Canadians railways use for designated service.

I've been looking at other phrases involving "service" in the FRA regs. "Road Service" and "Switching Service" seem like they're other types of "Service", though the meanings of those seem pretty obvious. That makes me think "Designated Service" is a type of service that is neither road nor switching. It just bothers the hell out of me for some reason.

>>986960
Part 229 has a bunch of different "X Service" definitions:
>Commuter service means the type of railroad service described under the heading “Commuter Operations” in 49 CFR part 209, Appendix A.
>Occupied service means the operation of a locomotive when the cab is physically occupied by a person.
>Other short-haul passenger service means the type of railroad service described under the heading “Other short-haul passenger service” in 49 CFR part 209, appendix A.
>Switching service means the classification of railroad freight and passenger cars according to commodity or destination; assembling cars for train movements; changing the position of cars for purposes of loading, unloading, or weighing; placing locomotives and cars for repair or storage; or moving rail equipment in connection with work service that does not constitute a train movement.
>Transfer service means a freight train that travels between a point of origin and a point of final destination not exceeding 20 miles and that is not performing switching service.

I'm just wondering what the hell "Designated" means here. What's being designated?

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>>986961
>designated?
Stop shitposting.

>>986985
Who's shitposting? I just want to know why the phrase "designated service" is used to refer to the operation of a locomotive under those circumstances. What the hell is designated here? The service? How is the service designated? Or is the locomotive's service designated in some way? In what way? And why is that different than any other type of service?

>He's too stupid to realize that the locomotive has been designated to be repaired.
>He can't realize the obvious intent is to force the railroad to fix the engine
>He doesn't notice that this is likely to never occur in any actual railroad operations.

[email protected]

Go ahead and ask them.

>>986992
Thank you, that explains the term. A locomotive that's been designated for repairs that is in service.

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>>986995
>designated
>D E S I G N A T E D
>E
>S
>I
>G
>N
>A
>T
>E
>D
Pajeet, I...

And I finally found some useful information in the Federal Register:
>Paragraph (c) excludes from application of most provisions of this rule locomotives used in designated service. This includes locomotives without occupant cabs and also locomotives referred to as “slugs.” On these locomotives the cab doors have been welded shut or otherwise secured to a similar extent so that crews cannot occupy the cab. The designated service classification is intended to mirror its application in FRA's Safety Glazing Standards at § 223.5. Locomotives used in designated service are still subject to the fuel tank requirements in § 229.217. FRA mandates this requirement because it has found that locomotive fuel tank ruptures place at risk the environment and all persons within the local area of the collision site. Since locomotives used in designated service may still be used as power in a consist, FRA is concerned that any fuel tank rupture on one of these locomotives would pose a safety risk at least equivalent to that from other road locomotives. Therefore, all new locomotives are required to comply with this fuel tank requirement.

71 Fed. Reg. 36,888, 36,899-36,900 (June 28, 2006) (discussing final rule ultimately codified at 49 CFR pt. 229).

>>986997
Look, if you know something I don't, just give it up without being a cock about it. I'm not a railnerd, I'm a lawnerd, and I came across something in the law that confused me. If there's some funny rail meaning of the term "designated" then explain, because I assure you without any context the plain English meaning of the word designated does not give any information.

>>987000
It's a joke about people in India having DESIGNATED shitting streets.

>>987002
Oh fuck. I walked into a memefield there.

Okay, I actually found the answer, fucking finally. The federal register final rule adopting the glazing standards provided a response to the comments received from the industry and the changes to the originally proposed rule.

The idea is that the locomotive is in service, but has been designated (i.e., labeled) by stenciling it as "DO NOT OCCUPY". Locomotives so designated are allowed to be in service even though they do not comply with the glazing rules (and later, the crashworthiness rules).

Another administrative law mystery solved.

>>987008
Now I have one that will really make your head spin.

>What's the difference between a local and road switcher.
:^)

>>986878
it means FIX THE FUCKING WINDOW

>>987042
A local is a service route/operation, a road switcher is a type of locomotive.

>>987157
That's wrong.

>>987042
The funny thing is, the difference between the locomotive designs is only the beginning. The real curiosity is how yard, local, and road switching engineers differ, and how contentious that distinction can be. Specifically, at what point do local engineers get entitled to road pay, and whether a guy whose job title is a yard engineer can get road pay for the entire day just by crossing the yard boundary. Pretty wild.

Anyway my understanding is that the major design difference going from local switchers to road switchers is the hoods: The road switcher had a hood on both sides of the cab so there's better visibility for moving in reverse.

>>987008

But how can it stay in serviced if no one can hop inside?

>>987215
Same way that a slug can stay in service without having a cab. That a DS locomotive has the physical cab structure is ignored for the purposes of Part 223 and 229 so long as the cab itself is designated in a manner that crews will know that they are not to occupy it.

The main purpose of that would be so, were the railroad to order someone to occupy that unit out on the road, he'd know he had been ordered to do something illegal, and would be able to report the railroad to the FRA, or decline to occupy the locomotive without risking his job.

The whole point of Part 223 was to protect crew safety in the wake of, apparently, a rash of (what we'd call now) domestic terrorism against railroads in the 70s. Specifically, there had been a fatality in 1975 resulting from what they called "vandalism". If you look at the Part 223 testing protocols, the glazing needs to be able to take a shot from a .22 LR bullet, as well as a full size cinder block hitting the glazing, point-first, moving at high speed. If a sheet of ultra-thin aluminum (apparently thin enough to puncture like human skin would) has any holes in it after the test, the glazing fails.

Anyway the point is FRA didn't want anybody in those cabs outside of a yard, and didn't want a railroad to be able to claim the locomotive was in designated service when the guy occupied it. Recall that railroads don't do workman's comp. So a railroad worker's negligence can potentially prevent him from getting any money for an on-the-job injury. That's what the FRA is thinking there.

>>987204
>The real curiosity is how yard, local, and road switching engineers differ
There is practically none. At least with locals and road switchers. The main difference is usually in accounting practices, but they'll often do the same work in the same areas and arbitrarily be defined as either.

>Specifically, at what point do local engineers get entitled to road pay, and whether a guy whose job title is a yard engineer can get road pay for the entire day just by crossing the yard boundary. Pretty wild.
Doesn't even matter for a lot of guys now that railroads are getting rid of mileage based pay and just going to flat hourly rates regardless of the type of service. It will happen that you dog catch a train, yard it, and then switch it these days.

>>986955
> (i) If the broken or damaged window is a part of the windshield of the locomotive cab, all of the forward and rearward end facing glazing locations of the locomotive cab must be replaced with certified glazing.
> (ii) If the broken or damaged window is a part of the sidefacing window of the locomotive cab, all of the sidefacing glazing locations of the locomotive cab must be replaced with certified glazing.

Does this mean that if one window is broken, all in the set must be replaced? Or should it really be interpreted as "if a window is broken, replace it, and verify that all other windows in the set still comply with regulations"?

>>987454
You need to realize that this code was written in a transition period.

You could have an engine that doesn't have glazed windows, but if the unglazed windshield breaks you need to replace it with a glazed one, as well as the rearward facing windows.

Got it?

>>987575
Yep, that's exactly right. If any windshield piece was damaged, all the end-facing glazing in the locomotive had to be retrofitted. And if any sidefacing glazing were damaged, all the sidefacing glazing had to be retrofitted.

The reason that makes sense is that the locomotive had to be retrofitted at a certain point anyway—I think by 1984—otherwise it couldn't be used out on the road except in designated service. The locomotives they let slide was the ones that already had good glazing, but wasn't certified. FRA's objective in the rulemaking was to establish a certification regime, not only where glazing had to meet minimum standards on a nationwide basis, but where manufacturers had to produce glazing of a consistent minimum quality.

At any rate, FRA wanted all the glazing on all rolling stock that went out on the road to be certified, and letting the railroads do a slow, piecemeal replacement process might let some get through without being retrofitted. While part of the certification process was that all glazing needed to have a manufacturer's ID code and other information formed into it, it's not like non-certified glazing really stands out like a sore thumb. All the inspector should have to do is look for the panel that says "FRA Part 223 Certified Glazing Equipped". If the vehicle has the panel, it passes the glazing inspection. Maybe he looks at one end-facing and one sidefacing glazing location to confirm the glazing used is in fact certified, but not every glazing location. If something then HAPPENS and it turns out the glazing wasn't certified, the railroad's going to be in deep shit. Probably assessed as a willful violation; Part 223 allows some hefty civil penalties for that.

>>987575
Minor point: It's not a glazed window. The material used in the window (i.e., the hole in the vehicle)—which may be consist of glass, plexiglass, just about anything else transparent, or (most often) varying layers of those materials—is called glazing.

>>987042
I work for uncle Pete, and at least how it is set up with our contracts, (sp west). A local leaves it's home terminal and does work in route in one direction in relation to the yard. I.e if it departs north it can do work up to its furthest point and back. It can not depart north, then return and depart south of the yard, with out a penalty claim of another days wage. A road switcher can go either direction out of the yard, with mutual departures and returns with no penalty claim with in the switching limits designated in the time table for that territory.
And also I've yet to ever see a locomotive with "designated service" on it. If it is non complying it is tagged in the cab, with its exact defect and rather it is or not good for power/leader. And even if a unit has a broken widow it can still be entered and inspected, it's just not good for a leader.

>>987157
Yeah not right. A local and a road switcher are types of service. If you want to talk just about locomotives, you have switch power and road power. Most class I RRs use 6 axle high hp units for road power, and low hp 4 axles for switch (yard) power.

>>987454
I have been on trains where we have gotten a broken window. (Rocks 2 and a gun shot the 3rd time ). Usually we slow down and switch the damaged unit out with an other unit in our consist that is facing the same direction.

>>988692
>gun shot the 3rd time

WTF? Story?

>>988693
Heading south through lodi ca. Kids on over pass shot at us with either a 9mm or a 38. Front window stopped 3 bullets, I went into number panel above window. Hog head kept rolling for about 8 miles to next siding where local pd met us. Here in cali we get shot at often. Some area are widows closed/cabs locked cuz of it lol.