>tfw wasnt born with the random lottery gene of being able

More of a curse than a gift but whatever

No-one is born a songwriter retard. Learn how to compose and put effort into carefully writing songs instead of hoping for spontaneous "inspiration".

>>73964796

every good modern songwriter says the shit just comes to them

yes, they then have to work it out/develop, but that inital idea is purely innate

>>73964796

this

>>73964833

they are bullshitting, or they are shitty musicians

>>73964742
Kys or go back to r9k with the rest of the fags who blame their every problem on genetics

you have to worship the devil and believe you have power and then you'll just let the devil play through you so it's not you, it has nothing to do with your genes

>>73964833
That's sensationalism. You can bet all of those songwriters have also spent enormous amounts of time studying other music and honing their own craft.

>>73964929
>Modern songwriters
Oh, boy. Which one exactly? Bob Dylan is still alive, but the last album of original material he's released was from 2012.

it isn't sensationalism, you just don't worship satan

How do you even practice making great melodies?

Every time I try they sound awful

>>73964742
you are literally just a tuning device
turn your fucking television on and realize the show does not come from the tv but the broadcast signal and your tv is tuned with it
tune into something you lazy cunt
>you aren't intelligent is the problem

>>73964796
>>73964929
how do you explain the countless songwriters that know shit all about music theory

see
robert pollard
paul mccartney
neil young
steve malkmus
gene ween
etc

yes, songwriting is a craft that can be learned, but innate talent does exist

stop downplaying satan's role. you don't need to know anything about music, just pick up the instrument or go to the mic with guidance from father

>>73965016

huh? I didn't say anything about modern songwriters, but if you want go that route, look at Joanna Newsom. she didn't just start writing from random inspiration, she spent her whole life learning to be good at the instruments she plays, training her voice, practing writing lyrics etc. she didn't just randomly pick up a guitar and be like "hmm I bet I could come up with a good melody for this"

>>73965052
You can't just have innate talent or a strong work ethic. You need both. All those guys have natural talent but also worked hard to refine it. It's an elusive mix of circumstances that only comes along occasionally.

>>73965052

>paul mccartney
>neil young

lel

clearly no actual musicians on this thread

If somgwtiting was just hard work, the Chinese would be the best

>>73965052

Exactly. Pollard, Gener, Malkmus...they were blessed with.sometjing

>>73965099
That's exactly what OP thinks it's possible. We should just leave this thread.

Just steal whatever black people are doing right now desu

>>73965119
fuck you
>clearly

>>73965052
Just because musicians aren't classically trained doesn't mean they didn't learn and train through other methods. Look at a ton of jazz musicians, they weren't just born with talent out of nowhere.

>>73965052
Because they realize you don't need to do make a bunch of extra bullshit to make a song sound good?

I think the problem here is you don't understand how easy it is to write a melody. This is probably the biggest problem of musicians. A lot of them to incredibly unnecessary shit like try to make more complex than it really is.

Perfect example, Bruce Springsteen. His music is incredibly simple despite what you might think. Almost little to no deviation from his sound because he knows what sounds good.

Bad example, Dream Theater. Listen to a Dream Theater song and tell me it isn't just a bunch of fags trying to play a bunch of overly complex and unnecessary bullshit.

>>73965052
It isn't just about music theory my dude, for example if you learn enough songs on a guitar you'll start noticing patterns on what makes things sound good, it doesn't require extensive knowledge of music to have a basic idea of how a chord sounds in your head to apply it on one of your songs knowing theory just cuts down all the trial and error and opens up some more possibilities but you can absolutely "fake it"

FACT:

If you were not playing an instrument by at the latest around age 14, you can NEVER become a good songwriter

You missed out on the window where your brain is developing in.such a way that you can "unlock" the creative songwriting area

How do I know this? There is not a single notable songwriter (from indie shit, to the "clasics", you name it) who wasnt doing something musical in youth

Sure, you can be competent at playing an instrument if you start later in life, but songwtitung? Nope

>>73965155

Writing a good melody is literally the hardest part of music

>>73965189
your mom's asshole is a fact, all this bullshit you just wrote is not

>>73965225

Im 100% serious, name 5 good songwritets who started at age 18 or later

You.cant

>>73965219
Depends on the type of music you're writing.

>>73964742
you would be surprised if you knew some of the heavy hitter musicians who come to lurk on these boards and read yer shit and laugh because they thought this too but then just said 'fuck it, i'll make music anyway' and made a career out of it. no joke. don't give up.

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>>73965155
And to add onto this. Look at every musician whose been in the business longer than like 8 years and thinks that they're awesome or great for being in the industry and they know so much theory and have this like ethereal knowledge because they've been around it and done complex things. It's all bullshit.

For example. look at this FL Studio song. I guarantee over half this shit is cluttering bullshit that makes this song sound like open asshole.

Or this shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x0IuREPla0

Tell me that sounds good. Oh wait, you can't because it sounds like dog shit. And you have people like these assholes running around and telling people how to make music complex and engaging, when only you know the sound that you want to make.

So then now listen to this. It's simple as fuck. There's 1 flute melody and a continuous harmony that never changes. This song incredibly simple, and yet only a person like Pierre and Playboi Carti understanding this simplicity and aesthetic they want to portray could make something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgbxbSSybmM

If you can't make the song in your head on a a computer screen with the midi notes in front of you and decipher what sounds good from what sounds like shit. You are not a musician and you should give up.

>>73965219
This is true. At the same time it's not as hard as you think. Think about the mood you want to invoke when people listen to it, think about what you want to portray, what aesthetic you want to give off for people. That's how you write a melody. Not just fucking around hitting notes like a retard.

everyone in this thread = just an opinion

satan is the truth. kneel before your master and become imbued with the song.

>>73965282
restraint can be learned too though, im not a theory fag but i don't think it would hurt to learn more about the ideas behind music. Dream theatre are great at playing their instruments and thats not a bad thing at all. They just never learned to write music thats actually good, something learned over time as a listener.

>people who aren't successful songwriters telling other people what it takes to be a successful songwriter

again, just call upon satan and let go of the self-hate

>>73965403
Well and that's the thing. It depends what you want to do with your music. The only things I know and tried to learn were my Major and Minor scales. Otherwise, I'm probably never gonna use an Arabian scale, or Phygrian. They both sound like shit to me, but maybe someone else can do something with them.

The same way, you should probably know about tempo and time signature. Those things do help.

The same way that you should know what a Phaser does, what a flanger does, how to add depth using reverb, how to make your melody more interesting using delay, does this bell sound like shit, how do I make my own sounds, what's a compressor, how do I get a better tone, etc.

There's value in all of that. Like I said though, you as an artist have a song that's playing on your head, and you can make your music a lot easier than you think, you just don't have to think so hard about it.

>>73965255
this is so true, if you only knew

>>73964742
>born with the random lottery gene of being able to write songs
nobody is born with talent. all kurt cobain did was listen to a shitton of 60's music and bang out power chords for hours on end until he came up with his mental formula for writing a good pop song. anyone could do it if they cared enough

>>73965495
Al Di Meola did something with the phrygian scale, unlike thousands of power metal bands and Yngwie Malmsteen.

>>73965644
yeah, i mean that's ALL he did. and nobody has ever cared enough since then. caring is the key!

>>73965662
Sure, but there's so much more to songwriting than what Kurt did.

>>73965662
>and nobody has ever cared enough since then. caring is the key!
what do you think the problem with today's rock music is? it's all too ironic. nobody takes their craft seriously

>>73965738
that's it, you nailed it. no point listening anymore. i'm going DEAF now, you convinced me. get me the scissors

>>73965688
no, there only kurt and caring. without that, it's all just power chords minus caring or kurt and well that won't cut it anymore.

>>73965738
>what do you think the problem with today's rock music is? it's all too ironic. nobody takes their craft seriously
Oh, how I wish we had thousands of Zappas today.

>>73965920
or at least someone who can kurt/care

>>73965920
implying zappa wasn't ironic as shit

>>73965973
somebody needs to learn how to read

>>73965973
Obviously, but he took his music and performance very seriously. Where are those artists now? You're implying they exist.

>>73966019
i am implying you should kurt/care

Bob Dylan had been writing poetry since he was a preteen, he had honed his craft well before he became a recorded musician. And he took quite a few lyrics and melodies and put them to use in his own songs. Fuck around, eventually you'll make something you like. Leonard Cohen was notorious for taking years to perfect a song to his liking, don't think you have to write a masterpiece in minutes.

Also about Yesterday coming to McCartney in a dream: I'm actually inclined to believe it's true, simply because McCartney has said that only one other melody came to him in a dream and you know what? He said it was crap. Just like there's no such thing as a perfect moment to ask a girl out, there's no perfect way to write a song.

>>73966124
neither of them really kurt/care so what difference does it make

>>73964833
Yeah the idea comes to them
AFTER studying and practicing and understanding music for a very long time

>>73966152
there's only a perfect way to kurt/care. which you, obviously, have not figured out.

>>73966199
yes, this is absolutely 100% true for all musicians and a fact and they all signed a document agreeing and it's a consensus and you have to do this or nothing will work in your life and you will die like dinosaurs and that is it forever

>>73965243
Robbie Basho picked up guitar when he was 19.

>>73965052
Whether they acknowledge it as music theory or not they are using music theory. They might not have a deep understanding of the label associated with different chords and notes but they do understand what sounds good together through practice

>>73966249
he might kurt/care. and he did not sign the document of factual consensus and rigorous study for years before tackling creation. the whole system will fall. musicians will create differently than each other. what will happen. this can't be.

>>73965189
Absolute bullshit. This is the excuse used by people who don't even want to try.
If you don't want to try to make music, don't. It's not for everyone. But don't make up shit and complain that you didn't start early enough and that's why you suck.
Take some ownership of yourself and practice.

>>73965180
this
even easier on a keyboard
learned about modes without knowing what they were called for years just by transposing and playing white keys

>>73966267
ah yes, what sounds GOOD

something provable as fact! let us get a consensus here. we must all follow this. like the great punk musicians who played two-strong guitar, they too studied the theory. oblivious of its meaning, of course, but they must all follow the same system. all music must be made the same way. we must have order!

>>73966300
take ownership and learn to kurt/care. unlike unironic zappa. and silly mccartney who dreamed his way through music. practice is everything. we must all agree on this before anyone can create.

>>73966226
What in the fuck are you saying?
Name some artists with close to little experience in any of what I stated who could just write songs out.

>>73966365
i cannot. they ALL do what you say, there is no other way to create and all music is made exactly the same way and it is all going to be this way forever.

>>73966312
Good is such subjective, I'm not trying to say you have to learn theory to write well.
I'm saying no piece of music can't be analysed with music theory to understand why it works the way it does, and why it evokes the feelings it does. As I said, whether they know it or not, they are using theory. It might not be formal, but it can be described through theory. Theory is DESCRIPTIVE. It is not a process for songwriting. It is a tool for understanding music.
It's obvious you think it's only some plain magic formula that only leads to "generic music" whatever that means.

>>73965052
>how do you explain the countless songwriters that know shit all about music theory
They were intelligent and understood the mathematical patterns required to write music, and well, they also had the taste to choose which melodies were good and which ones were shit.

The reason why OP hasn't come up with anything isn't merely because he hasn't put the effort in, or understands music innately, it's because the OP isn't intelligent enough to compose music, nor is he creative enough to make something lasting that matters.

>>73966447
everything you are saying is perfectly correct, especially about a song WORKS and the scientific truth of FEELINGS evoked and FORMAL music, which is a very mathematical term that can be proven and "understanding" which is 100% objective truth and you kurt/care enough that you will be blessed forever to make music as those who have done so in the past. the greats. you have the formula now. you are unstoppable.

>>73966481
INTELLIGENCE! that's not subjective at all, it is among the best example of a fact. those musicians ALL had the EXACT same intelligence, and they all made music exactly the same way and if you don't study and do exactly what they did, FORGET IT

>>73966404
To understand, study, and practice music is subjective. Music theory is a common language for musicians to be able to accurately communicate musical ideas to one another.
The way you're writing makes it sound like I mean that there is only one way to write music. Which I never said

>>73966524
>>73966557
Ok it's painfully obvious you're an idiot who doesn't want to have actual conversation

>>73966557
>INTELLIGENCE! that's not subjective at all
It isn't subjective, but a musician with a high IQ won't be limited by their lack of musical education, you don't need to be intimately familiar with theory to make good music. A lot of these really educated musicians that don't make really substantial, or creative music simply lack intelligence and use their education to compensate for it.

You can easily tell an intelligent musician from an unintelligent one, it's self-evident, especially if you talk to them.

>>73966659
I disagree that intelligence is objective
But don't bother arguing with >>73966557
He doesn't have any arguments and probably thinks the great songwriters all have their brains completely cut off from all influence and completely independently made all their music soley through imagination

Intelligence is objective but intelligence isn't needed to make what's considered "good" music. I've never gotten the sense that Neil Young is smarter than the average joe from his music, interviews or from biographies about the guy.

>it's another "/mu/ absolutely fails at comprehending music theory (and also the psychology of learning for that matter)" episode

God fucking damnit I hate this board so much.

reminder that musicians are terrible people and the losers in the "artistically gifted" pool

>>73966821
Who hurt you man
>>73966770
Idk why I come here, almost everyone here thinks a musician will be worse off for trying to learn and understand music at a deeper level

>>73966764
Well that's if you consider Neil Young good, I'm not talking about Neil Young, but your Mozarts and other composers.

>>73966821
Not really, many scientists are also musicians by hobby. It's a far more engaged artistic medium than say painting or sculpture. There is a much higher floor for competency than the other artistic fields, by comparison.

>>73965644
Some people are born with talent but not in the usual way we think of if. For example, David Byrne had already incredible musical skills by the age of 6. Now, that isn't to say it's a lottery because it isn't, most of it is just hard work, the difference is how much hard work you're gonna have to do. Some people are gonna take weeks of practice to figure out chords in a song, some can nail a melody shortly after hearing it. Ultimately if you dedicate yourself enough you will eventually reach the fifth level of fluency where it all becomes intutive to you. There is an old jazz quote of "learn every chord change, then forget them" - when you've truly dedicated yourself to your craft it will come almost instinctively to you, but by that point you will know what feels right. You don't have to learn music theory but it's a great shortcut.

tl;dr - there is a lottery but even if you're borderline hopeless, with enough dedication and focus you can eventually make playing an instrument something intuitive.

>>73966890
It's a bunch of people who think that music theory is prescriptive rather than descriptive and don't actually play an instrument.

>>73967040
>It's a bunch of people who think that music theory is prescriptive rather than descriptive and don't actually play an instrument.
Nailed it.

>>73966989
>Some people are born with talent
This "talent" you're describing is superior intelligence.

>>73966932
>Well that's if you consider Neil Young good, I'm not talking about Neil Young, but your Mozarts and other composers.
Neil Young had already been used as an example in >>73965052

And, frankly, I'm pretty sure OP wasn't talking about Mozart or composers of their level either, so it seems odd to start bringing them into the discussion. It's not exactly like Mozart was an expert songwriter, songs being the combination of lyrics and music, either. Here's his song about gettig licked in the ass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C78HBp-Youk

>>73967075
Eh, brains are different and they process information different naturally, and it's something we all have - you definitely had more aptitude for some things in particular throughout your life. Calling it "intelligence" is something I'd rather not do but I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Still, if we're gonna call it intelligence, it's something everyone can develop to full fluency, the intelligence just influences how much you will need to practice and how easy will it be.

>>73964742
I think you can brainwash yourself into being able to do that. Idk how but I'm pretty sure it's possible.

>>73967248
Brainwash yourself into become a talented songwriter? Go ahead then, by all means, I'm all ears.

>>73967332
Becoming*

>>73964833
Yeah,it comes to them because of the fact they are musicians and it's kind of their job so it's always on their mind to create new music

>>73966404
>>73967059

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>>73967332
I said he could. I already am. I'm just giving out advice here pal.

How does Robert Pollard write 3 albums a year?

Hes an alcoholic hick

>>73967825
You're just shitposting, you didn't go into detail, as if it's truly possible.

>>73967869
he also apparently writes songs on the toilet
And he comes up with songs by writing down a band name and song title first

lyrics for Kid A were various lines from unused songs pulled out of a hat so there goes lyrics

>>73968165
>so there goes lyrics
Sure. For one band.

>>73965450
This

>>73968492
two musicians - or three if you count one who is just shouting what to type - who have sold out madison square garden have thus far replied. don't take it so seriously, y'all. thanks for the laughs. good nite

>>73965370
yeah we fucking get it already
satan blah blah blah

>>73968529
you don't get it. you have no power.

>>73965189
Ryo Fukui was a self-taught pianist and only started played when he was 22 years old

>>73967869
idk, robert pollard is a very strange brand of songwriting genius. he's a fuckin oddball

>>73967869
>How does Robert Pollard write 3 albums a year?
He writes very generic songs and puts little effort into them.

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>>73970632

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>>73965052
I am almost certain most them know basic music theory. Using things like FUCKING CHORDS is music theory, which all of them know.

>>73964742
Most musical melodies and chord progressions are not original, and would've been heard before by someone else, and by them hearing them, and so on and so forth.

Like only 5% of music is actual original, the rest is imitation, copying and changing of styles

You guys are confusing intuition with creativity.

There are non-intuitive artists - look at someone like Zappa. His stuff is entirely pastiche and concrete. Then look at an artist like David Lynch who is incredibly intuitive and subconscious. Very different approach to art.

Im 26, no musical theory/instrument experience and want to be a vocalist and songwriter

Literally what is the process I should take

pleas'lle help

pleas'lle help4

I love how people assume that music is some metaphysical 5th dimensional activity.

>"Murph!"

It's a learned ability just like any other profession.

Yeah, you can have natural ability but it means fuck all if you're not consistently busting your ass with practice and learning as much as you can.

>Kobe Bryant didn't just shoot out of his mom's coot and fucking 360 windmill on the doctors.

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>>73967893
oh wow you caught me bravo sir

>>73965189
explain michael gira then