Why did rock never reach the heights, quality and variety of jazz?

Why did jazz never reach the heights, quality and variety of western art music?

Because rock was always primarily about the money and not about the art. Jazz never cared about appealing to the widest possible audience.

>>73039140
What do you mean "heights"?

But it did, in the form of progressive and math rock

>>73039178
This.
Even Frank Zappa, arguably the most advanced composer of rock music, was known to treat his music as commodity, or "product".

Rock surpassed jazz in all ways. Rock can actually write a sing, has balls, and doesn't hide lack of talent behind hours of aimless improvisation.

>>73039217
(You)

>>73039217
kek

>>73039207
>arguably the most advanced composer of rock music, was known to treat his music as commodity
Are you actually serious?

>>73039140
Because Rock is inherently a limited form.
Also Rock musicians rarely have the technical knowledge and skill of the best Jazz guys, so even if they had grand ideas, they lacked the chops to fully realise them.

>>73039184
progressive rock GOAT

>>73039178
>>73039295

these

>>73039294
Problem?

>>73039295
And Jazz lacked the grounding to bring it down to a relatable art form. It's why it will always remain an outsider genre.

>>73039335
Proof?

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It did.
Multiple times

>>73039337
Talk out your ass some more, boy

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>>73039217
>aimless improvisation

>>73039347
The Barry Miles biography of Zappa mentions his telephone conversations with record execs.
He would literally refer to his music as "product".

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>>73039207
>Zappa, arguably the most advanced composer of rock music

Please tell me this is neo-post-irony

>>73039295
>Because Rock is inherently a limited form.
literally every single genre of music
but good job, pat on the back, so smart

>>73039337

>lacked the grounding to bring it down to a relatable art form

wtf does that even mean.

>outsider genre.

kinda, but not really. sure it never achieved the mainstream success rock did but jazz still has a pretty large and dedicated amount of followers and I think the real irony is that there are like, hundreds more if not THOUSANDS more jazz albums worth listening to than rock albums.

jazz is a genre that is almost twice as old as rock so it has a longer history and always will, also jazz artists are/were generally far more prolific than rock artists.

>>73039408
Have you not heard The Black Page?

>>73039408

can you name a rock artist who brought rock closer to the heights of jazz and classical than Zappa did?

>>73039393
How about context? And how about an interview instead of a biography? He talked about his album, describing it as a "product" on Nightmatch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kebvj2I9VXo
So, what now? He just made jolly pop music for teenagers?

>>73039362
Of all shity pop/rock bands, you picked Ween lls

>>73039442
And of all people, Pierre Boulez chose Zappa to work with. You know, the one who you claim treated his music as nothing more than a product.

>>73039440
After Zappa (so not as significant), but Glenn Branca

Or Brian Wilson

>>73039140

This is a really stupid fucking thread.

Literally any way you define rock or jazz, rock is a genre that is about a billion times more limited. Rock never reached the heights, quality and variety of jazz because that's not what rock is for.

>>73039475
>Brian Wilson
>Rock musician
>Tripfag
>Baiting
Checks out.

>>73039413
Other genres of music involve more than I iv IV V in 4/4, don't go ABABCAB, use instruments other than guitar-bass-drums-piano.
I know there are exceptions, but that's 90% of rock.

Rocks other problem is it's shitty audience who get pissed at anything difficult or new. People on this board still get butthurt at TMR because their palate is so limited they find it inaccessible

>>73039207
Zappa fans deserve to be executed

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>>73039140
Because rock never did this

>>73039494
Wow, you're the first one who hates Zappa on /mu/, how original.

Jazz is garbage. It's elitist technical proficiency with no grounding in the realities of real life. That's why only musicians, who can appreciate the technical fluff that all jazz is, listen to it. And is there anything worse than Jazz fans? I think not.

>>73039475
Branca wasn't even a very good minimalist.
Why not just listen to Tony Conrad and save yourself from the fucking monotony?

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>>73039455
>Ween
>Shitty

>>73039337
there's a reason jazz is an outsider, art in a sense is not relatable. It derives from personal view.

ROCK
>blues based
>3 to 4 chords
>3 to 5 musicians
>guitar, bass, drums, piano
>verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus
>0 or 1 key change

JAZZ
>literally anything

Hhhmmmm why has one reached higher heights of quality and variety?

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>>73039570
>jazz
>elitist

>>73039337
>It's why it will always remain an outsider genre
You do realize jazz was pop in the 40's? You know, swing and big band jazz? You don't know what you're talking about.

>>73039592
This.
Art is not a mirror.
Art is a hammer.

>>73039600
listen to more rock

>>73039174

Well on it's way. And much faster than the western cannon.

>>73039178
>Jazz never cared about appealing to the widest possible audience.
This is blatantly not true and indicative of a lack of knowledge about the genre's history and scope.

>>73039600
>JAZZ
>>literally anything
you don't know what you're talking about

>>73039622
Thanks for proving my point. Jazz is a genre that had it's day. It's unrelatable and irrelevant in the modern world.

>>73039655
>>73039622
>>73039600
>>73039455
nice dubs

>>73039590
pick two

>>73039184
>math rock
good one anon

>>73039178
you obviously dont know batshit about jazz

>>73039722
>It's unrelatable and irrelevant in the modern world.
Sure, for people who listen to music half drunk and never bother to actively listen to music.

>>73039140

The Allman Brothers Band (RIP Gregg) played jazz, blues, soul, country and rock....so methinks you are clueless.

>>73039475

>Brian Wilson

oh give me a break. he has a maximum of two albums that could even be considered 8+/10 (Pet Sounds and Smile, obviously).

Zappa has a massive discography full of dozens of masterpieces that blend rock with tons of different genres.

Brian Wilson made pop tunes. pretty good pop tunes, but co compare him to Zappa is a massive insult to Zappa.

>>73039840

*to compare him to Zappa

>>73039827
How do you actively listen to music? Do you run around your yard in circles while listening to Pat Metheny?

>>73039840
Get ready. Just get ready. You know what's coming now.

>>73039792
math rock riffing requires more finger speed and technique than jazz you fucking baby

>>73039589
Branch wasn't bad, his compositions aren't far off from early John Adams in thematic material.

>>73039869

yeah, the psycho Brian Wilson fans who have listened to about 50 albums in their entire life

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>>73039140
rock can't be as good as jaz-

>>73039859
I'm not sure why I'm even wasting time with you. I'll indulge you though, but I'm saging. How do you actively listen to music? How about not listening to music on your phone speakers, in your car, actually knowing music theory to an extent and having a technical appreciation for music, playing an instrument and being inspired by musicians you listen to, etc.

>>73039889
Love that album but most Jazz is better than it

>>73039871
And hard bop drumming puts "math rock" drummers to shame thoroughly and consistently.
In any case, more technical doesn't mean better.

>>73039906
Oh so an elitist? You just keep on proving my point. Jazz is unrelatable to the average listener.

>>73039140
You've obviously never listened to Rush.

>>73039911
Like jazz was ever about sounding good.

>>73039930
>Oh so an elitist? You just keep on proving my point.
Oh, appreciating music on a level rather than a pleasant background stuff is elitist? And that's a good thing, right, because almost everyone does it?
>Jazz is unrelatable to the average listener.
And it has been since its departure from swing. So, what now? Should every genre of music be jolly pop music made to sell?

>>73039955
dude what

>>73039911
Not him, but it isn't the point of this thread to exemplify how oh so more complex and technical jazz is than rock music?

>>73039933
>Rush
ahahahaha

>>73039985
I guess?
I thought the point of the thread was to explain why rock never reached the same level of pseudo-academic tradition as jazz.

>>73039930
The average listener is a pleb. Fuck the average listener.
Nothing wrong with elitism.
Elbulli is better than McDonalds
Joyce is better than Dan Brown

You're welcome to your mediocrity, but why should I restrict myself?

>>73039983
You know what jazz is right? Its a musical movement build out of the fundamental of learning music theory by ear. It's a circlejerk of "Oh hey fellow jazzman listen to this complex thing i came up with, dont i just look so fly masturbating my guitar?" and people in the audience go either "Wow he did that, im going to pretend i know how complex that was so people with think im cool" or "Yeah that was an inverted scale with the 7th 5th bla bla bla off tempo on the last note sliding the chord 1/4th upward so it hits the next key bla bla lba".

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>>73039977
I'm not >>73040037 by the way.

>>73040058
New pasta?

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>>73039217
>Rock can actually write a sing

>>73040058
Or you could just listen to Solo Monk and chill the fuck down.

>>73039977
If you're a Julliard grad I don't expect you to listen to music the same as I do. Of course not. And no not all music should be pop made to sell. Thank god for that actually. But don't try to tell me that Jazz has achieved the same heights as Rock because it hasn't. And simply because it is not music made by people for the people. It's music made by musicians for other musicians. And jazz has always been about that. That's undeniable. Not that that's a bad thing. It just makes it a genre that for your average joe is meaningless and over your head.

>>73039440
Fred Frith, Robert Wyatt, Christian Vander, Robert Fripp.

>>73039600
Found the rock plebian.

There are well known bands that break many if not all of those 'rules'.

>>73040188
As a huge Soft Machine and Henry Cow fan, I respect the mentions, but Zappa really did Canterbury before either of them on songs like The Little House I Used To Live In and The Orange County Lumber Truck.

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Why are jazz fans such elitist snobs?

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>>73039498
Yes it did

>>73040155
>Juilliard grad
I'm not even from the US and I had to Google that.
>But don't try to tell me that Jazz has achieved the same heights as Rock because it hasn't.
I think discussions like that are pointless and I'm a fan of both jazz and rock music, among other genres. I agree with all of your other points though.

>>73040278
Because its justified

>>73040278
Why do rock fan think their fuzzy warbles are somehow more authentic and artistic than Ariana Grande style teeny-pop, despite it being harmonically and melodically identical

>>73039523
I don't care about having special snowflake opinions unlike you

>>73039217
>doesn't hide lack of talent behind hours of aimless improvisation
"Many people don't understand how disciplined you have to be to play jazz... And that is really the idea of democracy - freedom within the Constitution or discipline. You don't just get out there and do anything you want." -Dave Brubeck

>>73040278
Yeah, man. At least rock isn't full of elitist faggots.

>>73040355
Why do jazz fans think their wanky technicality is somehow more authentic and artistic than Kenny Rogers style cheesiness, despite it being harmonically and melodically identical?

>>73040359
Damn, sick burns. How will I ever recover? Grow up.

>>73040455
Now THAT was a sick burn.

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tfw you remember glory days of /mu/ when just about every post in this mind numbingly retarded thread would have been ironic

>>73040627
No. I don't. And I've been here a long, long time.

>>73039933
This. I've never heard a Jazz song as exciting as 2112.

>>73040348
Because it is unavoidibly justified by being fundamentally snobby.

>>73040355
Because live instrumentation. You being a jazz fan really checks out, even moreso one that doesent know music theory since you think harmonically and melodically is two words so distinct that you have to use them both. Eitherway, its pretty obvious that you have never been in a band that doesent know music theory, so you will probably never experience the autenticity of playing whatever and making a song without the borders of staring into a scale sheet and playing random notes, thinking that its somehow authentic.

Just please do everyone around you a favour and save your hollow opinion on artistic ability, to save those around you from becoming like you.

>>73040627
These aren't ironic posts?

Oh. OH GOD.

>>73039140
>what is Gentle Giant

No Jazz composer can even come close to Gentle Giant complexity.

>>73040858
Also, video related:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6WSLG5r-wE

>>73040912
Only good song from that embarassing album.
>No Jazz composer can even come close to Gentle Giant complexity.
This is pointless to argue about and you're most likely baiting.

>>73040662

Oh please, that Zappafag that responds to literally every post in the thread absolutely would have been an ironic shitposter 5 years ago

>>73040278
>Posting the king of rock elitism

>>73040929
>Only good song from that embarassing album

Here comes the typical contrarianism.

>This is pointless to argue

Maybe because you know no shit about music theory and don't understand what's going on in the video?

>>73039140
>Variety
>Jazz

Jazzfags are being smug about their genre being more complex than rock. So I guess they have to admit techical metal is up there with jazz if that's the criterium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXi-sydxtVQ

>>73040310

how in the fuck is that Glenn Branca album in any way similar to that Coltrane album the other guy posted?

not to mention the Coltrane album came out first.

rock hasn't been around as long as jazz

>>73040977
>Here comes the typical contrarianism.
I like Gentle Giant, but not Free Hand. It's their blatant attempt at commercialism, which ultimately failed, because they broke up ~5 years later.
>This is pointless to argue
No Jazz composer can even come close to Gentle Giant complexity. What do you want me to say? And what's even the point of arguing about things like this? Giving you more (You)s?
I'm a clasically trained guitar player. Just because I don't like Gentle Giant's attempt at commerciality that doesn't mean I'm all of a sudden ignorant of music theory. I'm not sure why I'm even going this much in depth, given that you're most likely baiting.

>>73041027
tech death kicks ass shut low t emo fag damn
>>73041166
hip hop is gay pronounce your verbs nigger

>>73040777
> live instrumentation
Playing I IV V over and over is the same whether you're in Arianas session team or the Ramones. Grow up and find out what an augmented 9th chord looks like

>>73041088
>It's their blatant attempt at commercialism
Really? IMO that only happened from The Missing Piece onwards. Although Free Hand is noticiably trying to be more accessible than their previous albums, I would never call it a "blatant attempt at commercialism".

>>73042066
https://youtu.be/CBlALygTswQ
This is... Yeah, not the best they've done.

>>73039570
While I am a musician and kinda agree, sometimes I just like some nice wholesome toe tapping songs

>>73039623
It feels more like both?
Any piece of art is at the very least a partial reflection of the artist

>>73040058
It's more like musicians building on the platform of shared knowledge of other musicians over a good chunk of time

>>73040446
Probably because it's not identical in any way

>>73039140
I think it's because rock is deivitave of jazz/blues. Like the reason classical and jazz are able to be like total art is because they are original. But rock music is basically the blues so it's not "special" in the same way jazz and classical are. Jazz music came out of creole culture and was a total unique thing that blended tons of cultures together and was inherently rhythmic and improvisational but had enough tonal structure for innovation to be made basically forever. Western "classical" ( not in the time period but all western classical music) has a long tradition of being a partially academic pursuit and is original because it comes out of the formation of western society and culture in the same way jazz comes around the formation of creole and arguably American culture that was developing (melting pot thing). They both come from the creation of entire cultures whereas rock and rap are based on simplified versions. Jazz is like an original tv show and rock and rap are like spinoffs

>>73042582
So I think by that reasoning, electronic is up there with jazz and classical, above rap and rock.

>>73040455
>>73039523
>Triggered Zappa fan
Laom

>>73043188
"""rap""" is electronic

>>73043188
hip hop is literally electronic music looped with rapping over the top most of time

>>73043188
Not him, but why not? I see nothing wrong with Edgard Varèse, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Cluster, etc.

>>73043285
You're still at it, aye?
>I have no arguments, I'm just here to shitpost
>Triggered Zappa fan
>Laom
You can continue if you like, but have the decency to sage.

>>73043188
The entirety of electronic music is more varied, of better quality and has easily equaled the heights of rock, yes.

>>73039140
what is progressive rock

>>73043407
>have the decency to sage

This. You might knock off another memetrap or popstar waifu image dump thread from the front page ffs.

>>73043387
Yes, I didn't mean that as an insult to electronic music, just an observation. But to be honest, some of the artists you mentioned are more academic classical composers and electronic music pioneers at the same time. So it's a middle ground between electronic and classical.

>comparing different art forms
wew lad. Rock music had it's peaks and heights that very well paralleled a lot of jazz and western compositions, and so do other genres not mentioned here like folk, electronic, pop, etc
>>73041037
are you seriously this fucking retarded/autistic?

>>73043655
>very well paralleled a lot of jazz and western compositions
ahahahaha

>>73040058
I didn't know jazz used guitars

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>>73044216
what?

>>73044298
I thought that Jazz only used saxophones, trombones, and drum sets.

>>73039570
>elitist technical proficiency

Jazz was literally just soul music played by poor blacks to have fun. You dont have to be a knowledgeable musician to enjoy jazz solos, the same way you dont have to be a boxer to enjoy a good match, but you do have to be one to make it.

>>73040058

->>73044409

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>>73044337
what?

>>730444
>jazz was soul
what?

Soul music is a popular music genre that originated in the United States in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It combines elements of African-American gospel music, rhythm and blues and jazz.

Rhythm and blues is a genre of popular African-American music that originated in the 1940s. The term was originally used by record companies to describe recordings marketed predominantly to urban African Americans, at a time when "urbane, rocking, jazz based music with a heavy, insistent beat" was becoming more popular.

>>73039217
Is this a youtube comment

>>73044337

wow.

ladies and gentleman, this is how ignorant your average /mu/ "music fan" is.

jazz can use literally ANYTHING. there is orchestral jazz, there is electronic jazz, there is jazz with acoustic and electric guitar, etc. jazz albums can feature anywhere from just one to a dozen or more players in an ensemble.

jazz is not nearly as limited as the typical rock band format.

>>73044492

Soul music as in the purpose of the music, not the genre. Like the term "dance music", it's not exclusive to the genre Dance music.

>>73039178
Jazz existed as commercial product decades into its existence. It really wasn't until the emergence of Bebop that Jazz became the improv based artistic music genre that people know it as today. Basically you're stupid.

Jazz usually sounds like 3 to 6 musicians playing a different song at the same time.

>>73045057
Ahhh

>>73043188
Electronic is really nothing new and it's not culturally significant. It just uses different instruments but it's lame the cultural significance and different complete tonal structure. Like it is still just the same scales that jazz uses really

>>73045572
*lacks not lame

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>>73039178
>Jazz never cared about appealing to the widest possible audience.

>>73039207
Nigga most of Zappa's shit didn't go outside the pentatonic scales what the fuck are you on?

>>73045656
T. someone who has very clearly not heard much Zappa

>>73045692
Neither have you apparently if you think his gimmick tracks like Brain Police for some reason make the majority of his career.

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>>73039140
except it did, multiple times actually

>>73045712
You know that Scaruffi literally hasn't given a 10 because no rock record can reach the heights of classical and jazz, right?

>>73044858
were the grateful dead jazz? They took american standards and improvised over them, oftentimes in a modal way.

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>>73039859
>being this obtuse

>>73045710
I'm thinking more along the lines of "The Black Page" or "Approximate".

>>73046013
The Black Page's backing non-percussion arrangement on consecutive versions of the track and the actual improv part of Approximate are both in pentatonic scales.

>>73046290
Regardless, who in rock music (as my original post stated) has actually done more with the genre?

fugazi
/thread