Is this the most patrician thing in existence? https://www.

no, this is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wgA9L5TN5M

>>72913846
>partrician
more like pretentious, but yeah

>>72913846
>tfw people only mention 4'33"

>>72913900
john cage isn't pretentious though, he's completely genuine

>>72913926
came here to post this.
Cage have several interesting pieces

>>72913936
it doesn't matter how genuine he is, 433 will always be the most pretentious piece of "music" to ever exist

>>72913996
How can the art be pretentious if the artist isn't?

>>72913996
it's literally the opposite of pretentiousness. you're taking this piece too much serious

>>72914056
>how can the art be pretentious if the artist isn't?
I hate to use the topic in question as an answer but I can think of no better example then 433. It is literally the exact definition of pretentious work from an un-pretentious artist

>>72913976
yeah they were certainly interesting LOL

there were so many better avant-guard composers guys use your brains to look if you have any real interest

>>72914056
pretentious, like other aspects of art appreciation are mostly supplied by the people experiencing the art, not the artist

>>72914134
Repeating yourself with more words doesn't answer the question

>>72914186
I know it doesn't answer the question but I honestly don't understand how you cannot see the answer. To me explaining what I mean by this would be like explaining why 2+2=4. I don't see the point, it explains itself.

>>72914186
>>72914233
Alright I take that back, I will do my best to explain how I see this as pretentious
It isn't John Cage himself, it is the piece and the reactions to said piece. For example, the fact that there are actually people watching this reeks of pretentiousness. It is literally people assigning importance to a piece that is the definition of nothingness. The youtube video being named "433 for piano" is also pretentious, this piece could be performed anywhere, on any instrument, the piano has nothing to do with it, I see this as another example of importance assigned where least it should be.
As for the piece itself, well, it accomplishes LITERALLY nothing, yet is somehow very well known. I'm sure John Cage (if he is as unpretentious as we are to believe) didn't believe this piece to be of such importance that it deserves all the recognition it has received. Because of this I believe that it is the piece itself that is pretentious, something about the absence of any music or anything at all in fact being considered a piece of music or a piece of anything or even worthy of coverart is the very definition of pretentious in my eyes.
I hope this helped

>>72914427
you just don't get it mom

>>72914427
>implying people actually go out to listen to this piece
>implying reception makes the piece and not the people pretentious
>definition of nothingness
>4'33''
Literally and unironically 2deep4u.

>>72914505
>actually take the time to explain myself, albeit with some terrible run-on sentences
>you just don't get it anon
oh fuck off

>>72914534
Compelling argument.

>>72914534
what?
I actually explained why I see the piece itself as pretentious and not just the recognition surrounding it as pretentious. Care to comment on that or am I just being trolled?

>>72914592
>>72914550
Well if you think it doesn't do anything you missed it.
Cage isn't really music you would actually go pay money and listen to, 4'33'' in particular a theoretical and philosophical work. Silence has been used in Western notated music since forever. 4'33'' is in part an absurd realization of this. Then there's also the idea of listening to the space around you. And iirc 4'33'' was "scored" for piano so that's probably why the "for piano" part is there.

>>72914534
would genuinley rather listen to 4'33" than half the shit mu talks about

>>72914669
>cage isnt really music you would actually go pay money to listen to
I never said anything about money, I said listening to in general. This piece is about the space around us? The space around us has always existed anon and it will continue to exist forever. The 433 has done absolutely nothing to change perspective on that space around us or any space at all. The piece is not a theoretical and philosophical work, otherwise it would provoke thought, what thought is provoked by telling us to listen to the world around us? That is not thought provoking, that is a reminder. At the very most 433 is a small reminder that there is something going on outside of the music that we listen to every day well still remaining inside it. Yeah that's cool and all but what exactly does knowing this or making a piece about it accomplish? Nothing. This is why the piece is pretentious, even if it was meant to provoke thought it does an absolutely shitty job of it therefore making it not only not worth anyone's time, but not worth existing. The world wouldn't be any better or worse without 433, it would be the exact same, and that is because 433 is literally... nothing.

>>72914859
>433 has done absolutely nothing to change perspective
So why do you type so much shit about it?

I think the main issue people have with the piece is the "I could have done that" mentality, they don't like Cage's supposed charlatanism , for doing such a low effort work that is still significant and talked about. Yes silence has always been part of music and people have pulled the same joke as Cage before him but to call it pretentious reflects more on you than him or the work. All these complaints about how it is performed "you don't need to sit at a piano", or how it is received "you shouldn't sit there and take it seriously" shows up the pretense of the critic not the artist. People are making fools of themselves over the work and they don't like it.

>>72915019
>why do you type so much shit about it
to explain why it is pretentious? Weren't you asking me?

as for the paragraph you wrote below, I don't see any of those observations applicable to me specifically. I took the piece seriously, wrote one sentence about it (then ended up writing a paragraph about it since you didn't understand my sentence) and decided that it is not worth anyone's time

Try refuting the final idea from my last post to convince me different
>the world wouldn't be any better or worse (or different) without 433, it would be the exact same, and that is because 433 is literally nothing.

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>>72913846
This is a contender.

>>72914859
>I never said anything about money
I only point it out because you seem to think there are people who genuinely go in troves to performances of 4'33'', which they don't.
>433 has done absolutely nothing to change perspective on that space around us or any space at all.
Good thing that isn't what I said. It changed the perspective of what we think music is to put it banally.
>The piece is not a theoretical and philosophical work, otherwise it would provoke thought
If we're talking about it on a dumb Vietnamese Bollywood children's book market, it did. Not to mention the people who've looked and discussed the piece for years since release. Unless you know more than the people who write for, say, the New Grove Dictionary of Music
>The world wouldn't be any better or worse without 433
The world wouldn't be any better with any music at all.

>>72915124
>people who go in troves to performances
I don't think that at all. I'm referencing even just 1 person who would go to see the performance. Even a half a person watching that performance is too much.
>changed perspective of what we think music is
no it didn't, it made us question ourselves, and then we decided that the piece was stupid and that music is music (im not explaining this point further because im tired of wasting my time with this retarded argument, if you don't get what im saying here i give up)
>talking about it blablabla
When I said provoking thought I did not mean thoughtless discussion that leads to no new conclusions or ideas.
>the world wouldn't be any better with any music at all
well thats arguable, but I said better or worse, meaning different from what it is currently. You can't deny that some music has changed the world, and you can't deny that without 433 the world and music would remain the same.

>>72915112
Have you considered that music doesn't actually do anything? Y'know we didn't leave Vietnam because Bob Dylan and Phil Ochs sang songs.

>>72913846
Steve Reich as an American composer is way better

>>72915112
No I wasn't asking you, that was my first post here.

You are arguing the world wouldn't be any different without 4'33"? So you would be still arguing about something that didn't exist? It is easy as that to refute your idea but I have no hopes of convincing you.

>>72915252
Prove me wrong and stop trying to bait me into proving you wrong so that you can say that 433 is promoting worthy discussion you lazy fuck

you will never see anything this patrician on tv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSulycqZH-U

>>72915285
>so you would be still arguing about something that didn't exist?
are you serious? You understand exactly what i mean and this quote doesn't refute my idea at all, it's just one of those dumb "GOTCHA" moments that make me further explain myself.

And I don't give a fuck if that's your first post here, you are arguing against me and therefore deserve that treatment.

>>72915292
Why are you having this unworthy discussion?

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Man look at all these discussions 4'33'' didn't start.
>>72915292
>Prove me wrong
You need to prove that the world would be "better" (whatever that means) with any piece of music first, especially since 4'33'' never sought out to do so.

You seem very angry over a piece of music, maybe you should calm down.

>>72915340
Because I'm bored and am trying to convince people that 433 is a dumb piece. And you haven't seemed to actually prove me wrong so I think I'm doing a great job of that

>>72915329
>therefore deserve that treatment.
Incomprehensible leaps of logic and angry inarticulacy? Well I guess we do deserve that treatment.

>>72915364
I already said this, not just better, better or worse, meaning different.

>>72915374
It's definitely a dumb piece, there's no singing at all.

>>72915390
>Incomprehensible leaps of logic
>angry inarticulacy
explain how please.
I get the angry part, although it's not over the piece as much as it is over who dense people like yourselves can be, but as for inarticulacy, well I have tried to be as articulate as possible whereas you guys have just posted stupid things like
>>72915364
>you seem very angry over a piece of music
that are just being said to actually try to get me to give up the argument in favor of actual anger

Like i said before, stop baiting and start proving me wrong
>>72915364
this picture doesn't prove my points wrong, it could just as much be showing that 3777 people are as stupid as you. Until you prove me wrong we will never know

>>72915405
>meaning different
I already showed that there's plenty of academic discussion on the piece, does that not constitute as different? It's clear you don't want to believe it as a piece that works on a philosophical level at a time when everyone was experimenting around with music, accepting it as a logical absurdity that pushes the boundary of what constitutes as music.

>>72915474
*how dense people like yourselves can be

>>72914427
Look, 4'33 establishes that the context which music is made and performed is just as essential to the art as the music itself. Nothing more, nothing less. I do agree that it's pretentious that people still perform it, but it is still a worthwhile message.

>>72913996
433 has got to be one of the most unpretentious works art ever.

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>>72914233
>this would be like explaining why 2+2=4. I don't see the point, it explains itself.
fucking plebs

>>72915474
>3777+ academically published papers and their publishers/writers are stupid and I'm not
>inb4 you try and claim it's all part of some large-scale Sokal like project
You seem more pretentious than anyone/thing else so far desu,

Nicholas Cage has made more meaningful contributions to music than John Cage

> Refreshingly, Gann casually and straightforwardly acknowledges Cage’s homosexuality, although he relegates any reading of 4'33" as an act of thwarted expression in a period of widespread homophobia—as argued by Caroline Jones, Jonathan Katz, and, most recently, Philip Gentry, among others
Not liking 4'33'' makes you homophobic.

>>72915475
>>72915492
>>72915494
>>72915501
>>72915524
>>72915531

I know you are going to give me shit for this and think that you are right but I give up.
I cannot continue to respond to this many people at the same time, it's getting out of control. I feel as though I'll my points have been explained pretty well and I also feel that things like this>>72915524 and this>>72915501 are
not actual arguments. If you can't agree with that and think that people like this are actually promoting thoughtful discussion against my points then either you are literally the most retarded people I have ever had the displeasure of speaking to or I am just being trolled. I think it might be a combination of both.

I give

People who get angry over 4'33" remind me of hyper 5 year olds that act like they are being tortured if you tell them to sit still or keep quiet for 5 minutes.

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>>72915626

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>>72915626
>acts retarded
>bails
See you tomorrow anon.

>>72915531
Based appeal to authority poster.

>>72915626
>makes argument
>many people refute argument
>another person trolls him
>"Look guys, my argument is shit and I can't keep up with everybody owning me, but this one guy trolled me, so I'm just going to abort this discussion. Thanks dickheads!

Next time dude, think about your argument before immediately dismissing something as pretentious. Labeling something as "pretentious" is a weak substitute for "I don't get it. I don't want to get. Everybody else who does is pretending."

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433 defenders are literally the .999...=1 defenders of /mu/.
They're defending something that is true without actually defending it.

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>>72915837
>shit animu lolis

>>72915626
the internet is in fact the last place where 'arguments' and 'thoughtful discussion' are necessary. i did all my arguing and thoughtful discussion elsewhere. here is just for giggles.
but ill bite:
unpretentious because all the piece does is say: hey, just listen...., which is a fairly radical musical statement on what is or constitutes a musical or aesthetic experience.
the piece is 'for piano' or performed as such because the piano and the performance establish 'a normative context' for a composition/musical experience and then substitute an alternative experience
this allows for the activation of a heightened state of preparing to listen and then something unexpected to listen to being provided.
the listening is left with the heightened state of listening as the experience/goal .
its cheap to equate it with Duchamp/signature as that entirely misses the point of the experience.
if your hip to it, the piece is unnecessary. nonetheless the experience of the piece could still prove valuable.

instead of asking for arguments about a work of art - goes spend some time experiencing things.

"i have nothing to say and I am saying it" do i have to write le epic of gilgamesh for you to experience/undestand something about the world or can you find your way there?

short path, long path i suppose....

>>72916035
*the listener...

I really want to believe nobody appreciates this unironically. But there are so many fucking retarded people i just dont know anymore.

>>72915875
How does it feel that a fucking weeb is right?

>>72913846
That's not HPSCHD

>people still get mad about 4'33"
Eh, it seems niggas still ain't listening...

433 is essential to the dialogue of art music in the 20th century as "Fountain" is to fine arts in the same century.
It establishes, among other pieces from the time, but 433 is the most well known, that any and everything can be music. Now that this has been established, the community as a whole can move on from attempting to make art that challenges the very concept because we have hit peak protest by creating something that from a philistine perspective is not "art," but is important in a sense nonetheless. The point has already been made and 433 should be known but not performed since the time in which it was relevant has ended, just as people will still submit literal pieces of shit to art museums because they paid a fee and therefore can, people will keep 433 performed, despite the fact that someone has already made the point.