/jazz/ general

nigger "music"

Did you know Varese once conducted a group of jazz musicians (including Mingus) and was into jazz? This website has the recordings. It was done in 1957 and is in the free jazz style- which this article notes was 4 years before Ornette Coleman's album "Free Jazz"

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2009/06/edgar-var%C3%A8se-and-the-jazzmen-mp3s.html

>>72434254
Pretty interesting, too bad the quality isn't a little better

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I know science fiction by Ornette gets a good amount of chatter on here but man...that album is amazing. also anything by trane after 64, art ensemble of chicago- a jackson in your house, roscoe mitchell- sound, anything by the AIR trio. if anyone wants free jazz reccs let me know...this is kinda my main thing. also alices soloing on pic related is god teir, or swami teir.

>>72434514
so are you like the new jtg except with good taste?

>>72434514
What are some more good jazz albums with harp?

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>>72434706
me? im just a guy whos a tripfag for fun.
>>72435139
Uhm well anything Dorthy Ashby or Alice Coltrane in the 70s is probably worth listening to if your big into jazz harp. also its in instrumentation for like most kinda cheesy sinatra w strings or shirley horn kinda stuff but probably not in the way you mean.
>particular favorites
>Alice Coltrane- Journey in Satchidananda and Universal Conciousness
>Dorothy Ashby- Hip Harp

>>72434207
David Binney's Lifted Land is impressive. I'm surprised I didn't hear about it back in 2013.

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>>72434207
While not entirely a free jazz album, this is an absolute masterpiece.
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/dewan-motihar-trio-irene-schweizer-trio-manfred-schoof-barney-wilen/jazz-meets-india/

>>72434514
What's some good free jazz from recent years?

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>>72436834
ah man, theres been a lot. Rodrigo Amado had a cool album called This is our Language. Anything by Henry Threadgill, Matt Shipp, William Parker, Mark Dresser, Joe Morris, Craig Taborn, or Ran Blake that was recorded in the past 5 or 10 years is probably worth a listen, atleast i havent heard much from any of them recently i dont like. Specifically heres 3 reccs
>Joe Morris- Altitude
Henry Threadgill- In for A Penny, In for a Pound (this is easily a personal 10/10 these days. i really highly reccomend it, won a pulitzer and everything)
>Farmers By Nature- Out of this Worlds Distortions...

>>72436948
>Henry Threadgill- In for A Penny, In for a Pound
>Free Jazz

Just stop dude.

>>72436575
David Binney has a lot of good stuff and is pretty underrated.

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>>72437072
jesus man...its a fucking blanket term. What would you call the threadgill record? contemporary improv, avant garde music, third stream, modern classical? i say free jazz because idk what the fuck else id call it seeming as though his fucking contrapuntal system he developed is inarguable a type of improvised harmony, which has always been associated with free jazz and i absolutely hear a distinct connection to more traditional styles of jazz music in his compositions and his bands improvisations. threadgills ties to the AACM also warrants him the title of being a free jazz guy, even if Zooid has a different aesthetic. im just trying to reccommend some shit to a guy. fuck you. i mean jesus man, i just got home from preforming in a free jazz group, youd think id know alittle.

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local free jazz band Black Motor has a new album coming out soon. yay!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNS34qloaX4

>>72434207
I honestly for the life of me cannot get into free jazz. Like I understand the purpose of it and why the jazz scene evolved the way it did but goddamn is it a chore for me to listen to. Call me a pleb if you want but I just prefer listening to things with a recognizable groove/melody. I think the only free jazz album I've ever really cared for is Cecil Taylor's "Air Above Mountains", and that's more from the spectacle of him just fly all over the piano for 40 minutes at a time.

>>72434229
bait "post"

/arts/ forum/board when?

Wynton Marsalis

>>72434207
Could someone please explain to me why Sonny Rollins is considered to be one of the most important saxophonists? He and Coltrane are often cited as the two best and most significant in jazz. But when I hear Coltrane I can understand the remark, and it is much more easily to compare it with what was going on at the time and how he used innovations, etc. Hearing Sonny, it's much more difficult for me to see that, though it's obvious he is a great player.

Clarification would be very much appreciated.

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here's some cool free/improv from last year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t6ugeDVIao

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>>72435139

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>>72437293
I think he's probs just triggered by something that's often got such a followable rhythm being called free.
This stuff comes in degrees though so the classification is a little fluid. Labeling is always gonna be fuzzy in art and your "point of departure" is pretty arbitrary.
Pic related is a more realistic as a way to think about it, but a little clunky when you just want a broad term that'll give a rough impression of the record. I think if you called it post-bop, third stream, modern classical or avant-garde you're not really giving as accurate or detailed a view of the music. Free captures a lot more of what's going on than any of those labels.

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Anyone here from /blindfold/ remember when I put Steps on a playlist? I was pretty good at making poor track choices, but man, that must have been my worst. Especially unfair to the people who actually did the thing properly and just listened through stuff once.

>>72440118
>Hearing Sonny, it's much more difficult for me to see that, though it's obvious he is a great player.
Well nobody really calls him innovative so they? Sometimes it's enough just to be a great player.

Anyway, his sense of motivic development was pretty much unmatched in the 50's and 60's.

>>72440118
He could shred like nobodies business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yke9KZpH5vU&ab_channel=nickwreiter
Also>>72440752
He was an emotive player who covered a lot of ground stylistically and wrote/played a lot of compelling music. Not every major figure in jazz was a maverick innovator.

>>72440704
I remember reacting reasonably positively to it

>>72440827
I think most people did! I remember there being a general consensus of "this is great, but it's a little monolithic to sum up in a short review".
It's just a long ass track with a lot going on and very little to hold onto. We had other long tracks, but it's especially difficult to look at a long free track cause you can't compartmentalise it as much when there's no regular structure.

When niggers make good music then turn to gross savage animals that need to be put down

>>72441103
Don't you people have DAMN. threads to pollute?

Did free jazz keep evolving into the late 70s? It seems like jazz went through a pretty rapid evolution to get to free jazz in the 60s, but did things kind of plateau innovation wise after more extreme 60s records like >>72435489
>>72440704

>>72441452
Yeah man, Brotzmann has been evolving since Machine Gun came out, and Coleman started Free Funk in the 70s. I know some Free Funk doesn't really sit on the "free" side of things, but a lot of it does.

>>72441452
Of course it did.
http://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=1970s&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=free+jazz&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

>>72441534
Yeah, Machine Gun is a continuation of some of the timbre experimenting people like Dolphy and Ayler advanced but it came out in the 60s.
Has he pushed the genre further since then? I'm not just talking about personal styles changing. Like, did the genre as a whole keep moving in different directions like it was in the 60s?
>>72441537
I'm aware there were free jazz records released in the 70s. This doesn't really answer my question.

>>72434207
Don't really like free jazz but I do love Sun Ra who has some releases in the genre I believe

>>72441637
https://www.elsewhere.co.nz/jazz/2058/free-jazz-of-the-seventies-missing-in-action-and-in-action/
https://www.the-hum.com/2016/01/17/flowers-in-the-dark-free-jazz-in-the-80s/amp/

>not solely listening to local free jazz ensembles that have never played together before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZqIp8a6zk

>>72441637
I do believe Brotzmann has continued to push free jazz since then. Most of the European free jazz and avant-garde artists are heavily inspired by him.

>>72441746
Any recommendations for Brotzmann's side projects?

>>72441791
Hairy Bones!

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>>72441650
Depending on who you ask, it's what he's known for.
His better free stuff was usually stuff done with a bit more preconceived vision or wasn't entirely free ala >>72440588.
He has a sickening number of blindly improvised tracks that just aren't very good, like on pic related.

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>>72440118
Here's an extremely in-depth and informative article on the subject by Gunther Schuller

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>>72442427

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>>72442445

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>>72442457

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>>72442474

>>72434207
>what are your favorite free jazz albums?
For Alto by Anthony Braxton. Pure brilliance.

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>>72442490

>>72442145
Atlantis title track is so distinctive that it should be a stand-alone on an EP or an single LP album.

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>>72442500

Rahsaan Roland Kirk is underrated as fuck. 5:15 onward has the best intro to a solo ever and than one of the greatest solos ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUc-WMpWmIM

>>72440118
So youve already gotten some very well informed answers but i would like to add some personal opinion and make a "why i love sonny so much" case. For me, sonnys playing is so intensly focused on a deep, dark groove. His tone adds to this for me but his feel for time always seems to be focused on a heavy 1 and 3 which give him a wide, bomb-dropping feel. I never feel all 4 beats with him, its usually just focused on the strong (bass and bass drum) beats. I dont think hes particularly innovative in an academic sense, but his pocket and groove i think are innovative in their own way. Ex. Night and Day from the Standard Sonny Rollins.

>>72441746
Brotzmann pushed in my opinion a more abrasive free jazz distinct from some of the American styles of free form, compared that to the work of Braxton which was to be was more structured, calculated and abstract. Brotzmann's Machine Gun is a prime example of pure abrasive brilliance.

>>72442567
Extremely underrated. Not to mention that he was a multi-instrumentalist (tenor saxophone, clarinet, stritch, manzello, flute, keyboards, cor anglais, percussion). He could also play multiple instruments simultaneously. And on top of all of that, he was blind.

>>72438765
I'd love this. I don't know much about art but I'd love to see discussion

>>72442787
Has Hiro created a single new board?

>>72441791
Die like a dog quartet is AMAZING.
>>72441746
Surprisingly enough, most of the free jazz senpaitachi and musician i have talked to do not know much or talk much about brotzmann. Even william parker who plays with him. I think a lot of the european free jazz, including brotzmann has a bad habit of leaving the spiritual aspect out of the music. Doesnt make them bad and i love brotzmann but i think that leads to some rejection by the old black free jazz community.

>>72442758
Agree largely, but never understood the "he was blind" argument. Seems to me that could just enhance someones ability to play, since there's no distractions when playing. I mean, at a certain lvl musicians don't need to see their instruments anymore, also ones who can see. Being blind won't make it harder to play.

I mean, Art Tatum was blind. It really didn't matter because he didn't need to see the keys. The only thing i suspect it does to a human being is get him more in tune with his hearing.

>>72442844
>Seems to me that could just enhance someones ability to play, since there's no distractions when playing.
What's interesting with him is that he became blind as a result of a poor medical treatment which he had in his early childhood.

>>72442844
Can't read music though. That doesn't mean you can't just get really good at doing stuff by ear, but it certainly is more a hindrance than a help if you wanna play complex prewritten arrangements or learn tunes with exceptionally difficult harmony.

>>72442995
>not reading braille sheet music

>>72443064
That's true. You'd still need to learn everything off completely, but it'd be easier than having someone show you how to do everything.
Do you know if Kirk read Braille music?

>>72442427
too fucking technical

>>72443121
Honestly i have no idea. He doesn't seem the type to me to read music but rather try shit out for 9 hours a day.

>>72443183
Maybe you could view it as an invitation to learn more about music rather than getting angry about it

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Anyone know any good orchestral jazz albums?
I'm in love with pic related (ornette coleman - skies of america)
Really love long orchestral drones and shit over some jazz.
Any recs?

>>72443283
jazz is supposed to be fun. you shouldn't have to study theory an analyze it to enjoy it.

>>72443444
JAZZ IS SRS BUSINESS

Its patrician art music

>>72443444
>you shouldn't have to study theory an analyze it to enjoy it
Well, you can define studying however you want, but without music theory you couldn't even begin to grasp the concepts of jazz. That's the reality of it.

>>72443444
Well that's the cool thing about good jazz. You can listen to it at a surface level and see it as fun music, but you can also break it down and analyze it at a deeper level.

Some of us like to know how and why things work. It's can be a lot of fun and allows you to listen to music at a much deeper level. It makes it possible to talk to other people about the music beyond just "I like it" or "I don't like it."

You should really consider trying to study the music at a little deeper level if you enjoy listening to jazz.

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>>72443440
this one is essential if you haven't heard it

>>72442427
I for one appreciate this kind of stuff and want to see more of it in these threads. Where did you find these?

>>72443440
Unfortunately my main recc would be Skies of America.

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>>72443669
These come from a cool magazine called The Jazz Review. Unfortunately it only ran from '58 to '61 but they have some really well-written articles

>>72443440
Free or otherwise? Waddada Leo Smith's Ten Freedom Summer is a good "orchestral" free album too. It's a bit of a rare breed though.
Stuff like Micheal Formanek's The Distance is similar stylistically but there isn't a string section.
Otherwise, I mean:
>>72443634
Gunther Schuller's concerto for jazz quartet
Bernstein Plays Brubeck Plays Bernstein
Andromeda Mega Express Orchestra
Bill Evans - Symbiosis
Nina Simone With Strings

Charles Mingus - Let Children Hear My Music
Miles' Gill Evans collabs
Duke Ellington - Such Sweet Thunder

Are all good, large ensemble jazz albums with a somewhat classical bend. The first couple have strings, the last few don't.

>>72442427
>>72440752
>>72440825
>>72442643
Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it, and I now understand the case for Rollins more. Still I can't yet see why Coltrane is supposed to share the position with him, but maybe that will change.

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Btw, while we're talking about jazz with strings, does anyone actually think this is a good album? Clifford's playing is heartfelt but I've never heard him play so safe before. It's like he's afraid of tripping people up by getting too technical.
It's all painfully slow ballads that sound identical all with the same uncreative, saccharine, cookie cutter arrangements. It's just everything that's wrong with a "With Strings" record and a severe disappointment.

>>72444109
I think most everyone puts Coltrane at a tier above Rollins. Most jazz fans will agree that Trane is probably the most important and influential tenor player in history, and probably in the top 5 most important figures in jazz overall. Rollins is an influential and important figure but not quite on that same level.

>>72444109
Sure, that was a great question man. However, i think its prudent not to compare them on the grounds that you are using. Theyre both absolutely incredible, world-changing musicians, and should be given a serious listen! No need to wonder why the public views them the way they do, form your own opinion about their influence and such. I will say ive always been curious about the amount of discussion about tranes quartet as opposed to the lack of discussion about sonnys band with jim hall, bob cranshaw, and micky roaker. I personally think tranes group was more important but youd think there would be more comparisons due to the heavy line ups and the fact they were both some what long term working bands.

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Bumping with Pat Metheny's best album

>charles mingus
>miles davis
>john coltrane
>charlie parker
>art blakey
Those are my general favorite jazz musicians. How do I go further down the rabbit hole with this genre?

>>72442802
You talked with William Parker? Cool

I really like Unit Structures

>>72445300
Just start branching out. Try out controversial periods from your favourite artists, try seminal live dates, check out major and moderate artists from acclaimed labels, and most importantly, listen to sidemen! I have never had trouble finding new jazz using this method of going deeper, jumping somewhere else, and moving laterally.

>>72445300
As you listen to their records start keeping track of who your favorite player on the record is (besides the leader), maybe the pianist or the drummer or the saxophonist stands out. Look up who they are and try some of their records or look for other records that they play on that sound interesting.

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>>72445300
you're really not out of very well known players yet
as again when you are acquainted with most of the really big names, there's no need to cut corners

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>>72445365
sorry, i didnt have my tripcode on cause i was phone posting. Im one of William's students and he asked me to play a gig with him later this year. i have a feeling some of the /jazz/ regulars are tired of me talking about him but if you have any questions or anything ill try my best to answer
>>72445383
me too friendo
>>72445076
Bright Size Life man

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>>72445300

Joe Harriott hasn't been mentioned yet.
He's not my absolute favorite, but Free Form and Abstract are good albums.

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>>72445619

>>72445604
I haven't been around these threads since the jtg days. Good to see that there's still players around.

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>>72445706
ah, thanks man. glad to see your getting in on the discussion!

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This album really has no right to be as good as it is. I thought it was gonna be 40 minutes of wank and that Matana wouldn't be able to sustain a solo performance for 5 minutes, let alone 40.
But this is well paced, restrained and kind of beautifully introspective and intimate. It's by no means a masterpiece, but for an unaccompanied, improvised solo sax record, it's really fantastic.

Currently writing up a 5 star review for my 350th rating.
https://rateyourmusic.com/~jazzthreadguy

Anyone want to guess as to what it will be?

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>>72434254
wew

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>>72446505
ben schachters entire discography.
or coltranes stellar regions

>>72446599
I do need to get on top of reviewing some of Coltrane's 5 star albums... He's got several.

>>72446505
Conference of the Birds

Do you think you'll ever do a .5 star review? Are there any records that just make you angry they're so bad?

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>>72446666
fuckin digits, but yeah. i almost think his later period is too ascended to even bother talking about or comparing.

>>72446718
>Do you think you'll ever do a .5 star review? Are there any records that just make you angry they're so bad?
It's possible I guess.

>>72446840
I usually prefer his quartet stuff over the later period.

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Piano drums cello trio album right here, pretty interesting

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>>72447168

>>72447265
v. good anon

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>>72446718
>Conference of the Birds
Pretty close guess

>>72438765
I'd make it happen, if I knew any other sites besides 4chan

>>72438765
The shitposting would be off the charts

>>72448525
Musikchan

>>72434207
>favourite free jazz album
I'd say Coltrane's Sun Ship but that's not 100% free jazz per se

In that case I'd say Don Cherry - "mu" First Part

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zl5vpy__dQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmN9rkVfsmo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKd_f2QBpvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRIXys1xMGc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AdPl5xIAvE

>>72448993
Yeah, but I don't think you can create your own boards there

>>72442223
great album

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>>72450075
Coursil is very consistent

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I'm a newbie to jazz. Does anybody have any recs?

>>72450822
see
>>72445619

>>72450822
just listen to everything you can find and decide what you like on your own

Who is the best musician in the Marsalis family?

>>72447032
Totally fair. everything trane did is unspeakably great music! at a certain point its just a matter of aesthetic tastes.

>>72450241
yeah, i've listened to all of his albums, even i sent him an email, because i really want a remaster of his byg actuel albums but he didn't answer that part kek
I love braxton's playing in black suite

>>72453399
Branford

is dave holland good

>>72453399
Ellis

>>72455333
Dave is fine, except when he's not

>>72455505
the best way to put it.

Anybody have any good stuff on vinyl? Is there a record store in your town with good jazz selection?

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>>72434514
there's a new Alice coltrane compilation of unreleased 80s material coming out on david byrne's label

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post more contemporary free jazz plz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv_kusRhdQg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjFDjvAhYHc

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>>72456743

>>72442145
He has plenty of free jazz records but probably as many or more fusion releases

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new release out today on streaming services:

Jukka Perko Tritone - Dizzy
https://open.spotify.com/album/5d2V7QsyH7GlxWQyO5w2T1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K26v245WHc

In honor of Dizzy's centenary, Perko, who played as a teenager in Dizzy's 70th anniversary big band in the late 80's, revisits some of that material in a trio setting.

Marsalis

>>72446506
/ourguy/

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>>72453399
Jason. I don't actually know that but Jason is the only one I've seen live

>>72460599
Playing vibes? I saw him at Cork jazz festival and in Ronnie Scotts and they were both great gigs. Haven't seen the other bros, but based on studio recordings: Branford>Wynton>Jason
Got that Heirs to the Cresent City one, which is what he was promoting when I saw him and it was good, but not mind blowing. I think he's better on drums than on vibes.

>>72445604
>Im one of William's students and he asked me to play a gig with him later this year
holy shit that's cool, what instrument do you mainly play, bass too I guess then?

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"Fuck up your ears with political statements" bump

>>72434514
holy shit a sufferable trip user, this is a rare find
is he /ourguy/?

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What do you folks think of Anthony Braxton? Any favourites from his (huge) discography?
Listening to pic related atm, it's cool

>>72464737
He good

>>72464742
Any particular favourites? I like his stuff but there's so much to choose from

>>72464805
For Alto and Saxophone Improvisations Series F

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>>72464737
I don't have much Braxton but I really like pic.

Here's a link for anyone who wants to listen too.
http://www87.zippyshare.com/v/nDkwjpSv/file.html

>>72464968
>>72465145
I'll check those out, thanks

>>72434207
nobody has mentioned derek bailey??

"sign of four" - metheny/bendian/bailey/wertico

>>72466416
>nobody has mentioned derek bailey??
I'm a guitar player, but I could never get into Derek Bailey's music. I understand that he's a pioneer of free jazz guitar and free improvisation on guitar, though he sounds amateurish. And I'm also familiar with free jazz and many other experimental and jarring genres of music, but somehow, Derek Bailey has been always out of reach for me. Any advice for better understanding of his music and methods?

>>72467063
I've been rereading Bailey's Improvisation: Its Nature And Practice In Music lately - it's a pretty interesting book for anyone interested in improvisation in music in general, maybe helps you understand Bailey better too, although I think the crude naivety of his guitar playing just isn't everyone's cup of tea.

The first Bailey albums I got into were his 'free funk' album Mirakle with Jamaaladeen Tacuma and Calvin Weston who used to play with Ornette and his albums with Ruins, so maybe give those a try. I think the stronger rhythmic framework makes his guitar playing much easier to grasp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOGdAFxe9_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmRkxMFfNq4

>>72467276
>'ve been rereading Bailey's Improvisation: Its Nature And Practice In Music lately
Thank you. I'll have to get that book. I'm also a fan of Trout Mask Replica and the guitar work on that, although it's all too easy to write off Derek Bailey as just "he's not even trying". I can hear similarities, but his playing is so disjointed and jarring it comes off as a practical joke. Does he have any albums with traditional guitar playing (as much as that is possible in his case)?

Anybody got any jazz releases they're looking forward to this year?

>>72467555
looking forward to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bna2WHqU81A
hadn't heard of it 'til yesterday but it's dope

>>72455922
I have about 50 jazz records on vinyl thatd id call atleast 7.5 out 10. Most are in great shape too. Cant really say theres many great stores by me. There was a store in richmond va, where i used to live, that would specifically stock their jazz section to my taste cause i bought so much stuff haha.

>>72468980
Plan 9?

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Anyone use jazz to calm their nerves? I have anxiety and listen to cool jazz for this purpose. Thank you, Miles Davis.

>>72469017
nope, deep grooves. plan 9 is not the best for jazz stuff but they will get a lot of cool used shit in there and they wont know what it is so itll be really cheap. got ornette quartet bootlegs with paul bley that was released on bleys label in there for like 6 bucks.

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>>72463286
im honored you think so?

>>72470322
I don't really like Deep Grooves that much bc it seems like all they have are new reissues. I pretty much only buy used stuff so I like Plan 9 better. I saw that Coleman Classics record in there but didn't have any cash on me that day. Next time I was there it was gone.

>>72470486
HA! haha oh man, yeah im sorry. i got that one and change of the century around the first week of march i think. yeah thats an accurate thing on deep grooves. i buy both, most of the stuff i really love that i have is a new rissue but i also dont spend more then 12 or 15 bucks on a rissue unless its like something i neeeeeed (science fiction or trane live at temple). plan 9 is good but its pretty hit or miss. now i live near princeton music exchange and i really need to get out there cause apperently thats amazing. also what rissues i buy depends on the label and if i know they press good stuff. impulse pisses me off in particular but i end up buying trane stuff cause its trane.

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bumping with a cool pop record composed by one of gil evans favorite students.

Just took an edible. Rec me some lesser known modal jazz

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>>72472001

>>72471972
>one of gil evans favorite students
Didn't know this. Most interesting thing I've read all day.

I'm really starting to like instrumental bebop/big band. Any particular suggestions?

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>>72437868
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvxUamQSknM