Is it racist to say that white people can't play jazz as

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>>71201492
Black people play jazz like a sport. White people play it like an intellectual pursuit.

Thinking man's jazz

It was a predominately black genre but you also have great white jazz players like Guaraldi and Brubeck

>white people
>future

I'm looking forward to some amazing arab jazz players though, allahu'alam.

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>>71201492
I don't really give a shit if its "racist," but you obviously don't have much experience with the genre if you believe that.

>white people
>in the future

made me laugh

>>71201615
>people
>future
Okay

>>71201624
Bill Evans is the sole exception, and he might as well be black

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>>71201492
A fair assessment would be: It's blind to reality. I've found most people who are spout this meme are never actually into jazz at all. Miles Davis in particular was influenced by white cool jazz artists, specifically Chet Baker (whom he emulated the most), Gerry Mulligan, Lee Konitz, etc. I could go on to destroy you some more, but, again, it's obvious you don't know very much.

White People dominated the genre for a long time before bebop and other subgenres came around

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>>71201654
Sure thing little buddy

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Is it racist to say once you've heard Herbie Hancock that you have officially peaked with music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxJJ90bk55w

>>71201492
Yeah, but since most of this board is white you'll find everyone refuting the obvious and clinging to two or three names that can't compete with the black powerhouses.

>>71201669
Lol no. There were plenty of whites, etc, during the swing era, but claiming whites ""dominated"" certainly isn't true.

>>71201669
>dominated
You mean stealing music and getting ahead of other black musicians thanks to the imperating racism in the showbiz industry back then?
The best musicians of the pre-bebop era are all black: Armstrong, Ellington, Basie, people like Glenn Miller were just hacks in comparison.

>white """"""""""""""""""people""""""""""""""""""

>>71201582
>>71201624
Man why can't you guys let black people take the cake for this one thing?

>Is it racist
yeah

>>71201763
They can take (c)Rap music

>>71201745
Your opinion on Bix Beiderbeck, Paul Whiteman, etc?

>>71201672
Dave Holland, Gary Peacock, Charlie Haden. So many great bassists...

>>71201669
>all these insecure white people

Fuck off. All the titans of the genre are black (barring perhaps Bill Evans but he's not in the same tier as someone like Thelonious Monk)

>>71201783
Haha you put a c before rap and now it's crap!

>>71201806
That's right, can't spell Crap without Rap.

>>71201492
No, because it's the truth.

>>71201492
Sure. Is it racist for me to say black people can't do rock or classical music?

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I know jazz is a "black genre" but without Gershwin and Django its kinda difficult to imagine jazz we know it ever existing

>>71201883
Not really. We all have our genres. We have hiphop, jazz, soul and more obscure forms of metal. Whites have country, punk and bluegrass

Ronnie Cuber
Don Ellis
Chick Corea
Bill Evans
Brad Mehldau
Ryo Fukui
Hiromi Uehara
Satoko Fujii
Colin Stetson
Keith Jarrett
Lennie Tristano

Just a couple.

>>71201791
>>71201791
Beiderbecke was good, I don't really care much about Whiteman to be honest.
There were good white musicians for sure, but the playing field just wasn't even, if you were black you had it much harder to find success back then (not to mention having musical training at all), looking in retrospective the most notorious names from that era are almost all black musicians that didn't get the fame they deserved (except Armstrong and a few others of course), it just got even more obvious when it started becoming elitist with bebop and a ton of white musicians moved to the next popular thing.

>>71201855
this is hilarious!!
Mind if I take it?

>>71201783
uninformed opinions are fun

>>71201900
You can find traces of swing and jazz elements as far back as Beethoven, you can probably go even further.

>>71201883
>black people can't do rock
Stupid and ignorant.
>or classical music?
True.

>>71201915
Asians do not count here

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>Whites can't make jaz-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JojN1ffvSE

>However, in performance, the theme and first variation sound much slower, with wide spaces between the chords, and the second variation (and much more so, the third variation) faster, because of the shorter note values that create a doubling (and redoubling) of the effective compound time groupings. The third variation has a powerful, stomping, dance-like character with falling thirty-second notes, and with heavy syncopation. Mitsuko Uchida has remarked that this variation, to a modern ear, has a striking resemblance to cheerful boogie-woogie,[3] and the closeness of it to jazz and ragtime, which were still eighty years into the future at the time, has often been pointed out. Jeremy Denk, for example, describes the second movement using terms like "proto-jazz" and "boogie-woogie".[4]

Is there any white jazz players that don't make Starbucks's speakers tier music?

>>71201915
>Chick Corea
>good
that scientology freak makes the cheesiest jazz ever.

>>71201763
Making jazz a strictly "black" thing belies the spirit of the genre. Jazz at its very origins was rooted in the intersection of different races and cultures. Just look at the Creole musicians that were a huge part in its beginnings -- typically biracial, French-speaking Louisianans who played music from all popular genres, regardless of race.

>>71201977
I guess you can take 3 off of that list then.

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>>71201883
black people invented rock

>>71202020
*farts in your face*

>>71202008
Peter Brotzmann

>>71201977
Now that, that is racist.

>>71202017
White guilt is strong here

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>>71202010
Hey the 80's were rough for a lot of people

>>71201983
Going along with your argument that this is "white jazz" that predates everything by nearly a century, why didn't this become popular like Joplin's work did in the early 20th century?

>>71202008
The entire European Free Jazz scene.
Manfred Schoof, Evan Parker, Alexander von Schlippenbach, Han Bennink, Mischa Mengelberg, Peter Brötzmann, Paul Lovens, etc.

>>71202073
>poseur-core

>>71202104
>why didn't this become popular
>why didn't Beethoven become popular
Anon whatever you're doing I implore you to reconsider.

>>71202082
I take it that means you don't have an actual response.

>>71202073
My sides. "I'm so weird" jazz doesn't count. Next you'll tell me John Zorn.

White people suck at jazz, holy shit. Both as fans and musicians.

>>71202008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDpVb2qka8

Jaki Liebezeit on the drums btw.

>>71202160
but... but i like john zorn....

>>71202131
Not Beethoven as a whole, the particular rhythmic and melodic motifs in that piece that sound "jazzy."

Lot of Beethoven's other approaches very quickly became imitated and integrated into European music, but not this particular idea.

>>71201983
This is cretinous, a handful of notes that sound like a common theme in much later music doesn't mean Beethoven invented jazz.

>>71202160
>I've only listened to 2 minutes of John Zorn tops
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arCDeEv_nHw

>>71202104
Jazz (ragtime) was born in the late 1800's by richer blacks (often creole [mixed race]) who began improvising with romantic music like Beethoven, etc.

>>71202073
>>71202114
These. There are also plenty of whites involved with swing and bebop. Seriously, look on the back of your Mingus, Davis, Ayler, etc, albums and there will probably be a white player more often than you would think.

>>71202116
niceme.me

>>71202160
>>71202116
How can people be this pleb. Brötzmann is held in really high regard within the jazz-world. /mu/ contrarianism doesn't do anyhting about that.

>>71202202
B-b-but /mu/ told me only bebop from the 60's was real jazz!!!

>>71202202
>/mu/ told me brotzmann was cool and experimental so I believed them
>i totally know a ton about free jazz! uhhh brotzmann, the list goes on (where's that wikipedia article with cool experimental jazz players?)
you're the contrarian here bub

>>71201492
European jazz giants would disagree.

Also jazz was born at a multicultural intersection.

>>71202202
No he's not. Liking Brotzmann is a sure sign of being a rockist pleb,

>>71202248
>European
>jazz
hahaha
(you're right about the second point though)

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>>71202008

>>71202196
>Jazz (ragtime) was born in the late 1800's by richer blacks (often creole [mixed race])
Absolutely true and well-documented
>who began improvising with romantic music like Beethoven, etc.
I've never heard this in my life and would greatly appreciate any kind of source. Not saying its BS, but I'm definitely skeptical.

>>71201492
No, they're also better as a group at, for example, Funk and Hip-Hop. It's also not racist to say that white people are generally better at stuff like Country and Folk. It's just a fact.

>>71202248
This. The racebaiting in this thread is too strong, and is merely an indicator of how pleb you are.

>>71202244
You could try reading a book for once, you fucking turbopleb

On an unrelated note, here's Rahsaan Roland Kirk playing a 7 minute circular breathing solo.

https://youtu.be/N-eda_Ale_0?t=236

>>71202262
this
it's generic "I only listen to noise rock and or metal and just discovered how to look cool on /mu/"

>>71202284
I guarantee I know more about jazz than someone who namedrops ONLY brotzmann on /mu/ threads to look cool

>>71202310
I didn't though, I named six others.

>>71202262
>>71202310
Okay, let's see what European jazz artists the Brotzmann hate-boner squad can produce. Make it good.

>>71202183
Because they saw it as just a cute sound and didn't think of basing an entire genre of music on it and focusing on it as extensively.
That doesn't mean it was underappreciated though, musicians like Ravel and Shostakovich incorporated jazz elements to their music, the point is that that at its core, swing is a very limiting rhythm, classical composers tend to be more transversal in their musical output so they wouldn't bother writing an entire set of preludes or rhapsodies or whatever with the same rhythmic pattern.
Not to mention that we know from letters and such that improvisation was really a big deal with classical composers for hundreds of years (even more with virtuosos like Liszt or Paganini) however, all those improvisations are lost in time so there probably was a ton of experimentation going on that they didn't bother composing a full piece of that is lost forever.

>>71202186
What are you talking about? it's neither a "handful of notes" or a "common theme", the point is the rhythm, that "syncopathed" rhythm with a 2/4 beat (that is lacking in the op.111 though) is basically the formal definition of swing, (only with "normal" quarternotes instead of triplets with muted central notes), that was the characteristic rhythm of jazz for decades.

>>71202342
I don't hate Brotzmann, I hate you for thinking you're cool for namedropping him.

>>71202337
Then I wasn't talking to you.

>>71202384
>(only with "normal" quarternotes
Meant eighth notes, quavers.

>>71202418
As if 4chan is a conversation and not a room of autists yelling at each other

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>>71201661
came her to do this, but I'm not sure I could have done it quite as elegantly as you have. Thank you, sir.

>>71202194
Liking this video proves you know shit about real jazz.

Another racist white boy in the thread, how surprising.

>>71201883
>Hendrix
>Chuck Berry

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>>71202418
>I don't hate Brotzmann, I hate you for thinking you're cool for namedropping him.

Oh cool how epic kid. it wasn't obscure enough. Does that mean naming Han Bennik, Evan Parker, and all the other Instant Composers Pool related guys (who worked with Peter Brotzmann) was the superior answer, because mentioning the most popular person from the European free jazz movement wasn't good enough? Omg le posers.

>>71202484
>Another racist white boy in the thread, how surprising.

>Larping as a negro on a Bhutanese embroidery pow-wow

>>71202582
>Look anon, I can Google?

Whites are pathetic

>>71202010
His output with Miles and his solo efforts from the same era were solid as fuck

>>71202605
White Europeans were the only people who liked free jazz in the first place lol.

>>71202632
He did some great stuff with Hiromi aswell a while ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KmBV1j5UMI

>>71202632
True, I just love hating him. And honestly his work really became progressivly worse after he became a scientologist.

>>71202384
Thanks for the reply, but I'm not sure that answers my question of why Joplin was prolific and influential with a kind of syncopation/feel shared with Beethoven. You mentioned "they saw it as just a cute sound" in Beethoven's context, but it clearly took on a new life later on (to the point of influencing the composers you mentioned). What changed?

Good points about improv. People tend to give jazz too much credit with introducing improv to Western music. Like you said, it existed in the classical world, as well as popular and folk music styles, for as long as we can remember. If anything, jazz reignited interest in improvisation in Western music, but it definitely didn't invent it.

>>71202650
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYDyTcxfAU0

>>71201492
>Historically speaking
i can promise you you havent listened to a lot of jazz

>>71202160
what is "I'm so weird jazz"?

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>>71202720
I'm talking about the early 60's, bro. Did you listen to the interviews on pic related?

>>71202748
The faggoty, "avant-garde" style jazz whiteys like Zorn pump out. No real knowledge or appreciation for the art, just big fans of blowing things

>>71202780
>No real knowledge or appreciation for the art, just big fans of blowing things
I'd bet my left testicle that Zorn has more knowledge of jazz than you will ever have.

>>71202808
He's not black so that's inherently impossible

>>71202780
but that's done by both blacks and whites dude. Why do you think it's something only White europeans do?

>>71202676
"Why did something not become popular until X" is a though question, there's a ton of variables that influence whether something will catch on with the collective consciousness of any era.
I think the op.111 should be contextualized, to us that kind of sound is nice, we like it, but we have a completely distorted point of view because we're excessively familiar with it, in the XIXth century it was something odd, most people probably thought it didn't sound that good to begin with (even to us, it sounds square-ish when compared to the traditional swing we're used to, mostly because as I said before, he's not using triplets with muted central notes instead of eighth notes which is one of the most important factors of the "swing" feel).
Op.111 is one of Beethoven's late sonatas, at that point Beethoven was almost completely deaf, he composed with a piano with its feet cut so he could sense the ground vibrations with his feet, with this I'm not saying that he was just writing random shit at a sheet, his late sonatas and compositions contained the most radical developments and ideas of his whole career, simply put, it was as if he was actively trying to destroy all preconceived notions of music before complete deafness, the fact that it's in one of this late sonatas (his second to last I think) was the only instance when we can find this "proto-swing" speaks as to how utterly alien it was for that era.

>>71202892
Great insights. There's a lot of interesting things to discuss with a piece like this. For one, how accurate is our understanding of the "true" feel of the piece? Notation is invariably limited, and basically any recorded performance is going to be "tainted" by a familiarity with modern jazz rhythms, so that separation is even harder for us. I don't have an answer, and I can't imagine there's a simple one.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that "swing-ish" rhythms are pretty common throughout European folk music, particularly things based around the jig, and I wonder how much of that influenced Beethoven in this particular piece.

I have to leave for work, I'd like to hear your thoughts but probably won't be home before the thread is archived. Thanks again for some insightful posts.

>>71201883
>black people can't do rock

well it's certainly retarded to say given the best rock guitarist ever was a black man.

>>71201492
Jazz is now exclusively a white genre

>>71202665
Holy shit. Never heard of Hiromi before. She is my waifu now

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Leave Jazz Kino to me

>>71201713
But two or three names is all you need to refute OP's gross generalization all you need is one name really and the point has been refuted.

>>71201763
Whites are so insecure: they know they're inferior to the Black Man, that's why they act so violent and greedy.
~B***** O****

Jazz is a black and jewish thing, whites are just crashing the party with little redeeming qualities

>>71205810
badadababbabababadadada beeeeee baaaaa