>Claims to be a Jazz and Classical fan >Doesn't know

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>those people that play instruments but can't read music
>those people that compose music but can't read music

>likes to watch movies
>doesn't know how to change aperture time on an a 4K DSLR IMAX camera

Are these people the biggest lolcows?

>"muh music theory"

Seriously when are people going to stop with this shit?

>>70343735
t. someone who doesn't know music theory

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>>70343719

>>70343749
t. outsider music master race

And I'm all the better for it ;o)

>>70343643

Do you have to be a physics major to enjoy a ride on a rollercoaster?

>>70343777
t. Scaruffi

>>70343777
You don't understand music

>>70343778
Eh, you're missing 99% of the content if you don't know your music theory and if you're lacking ear training.
Yeah, you can still appreciate Beethoven, but you're not getting why he's a genius.

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>>70343797
I dont listen to music with my brain

I listen with my heart

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>>70343735
When you ask a person with no knowledge of Music Theory why they like A Love Supreme or The Four Seasons. They probably can't explain why besides "muh sounds good".

>>70343820
>not wanting to know everything about your favourite music
Keep limiting your aesthetic experience, mate.

>>70343719
Dog really wants lettuce

>>70343820
I wouldn't expect anything less of a troglodyte.

>tfw going to disprove and dismantle music theory in the next few years

screencap this

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>>70343719
>tfw it takes 1 month of daily exercise to learn how to read music
>tfw they still don't fucking do it

>>70343808

Even if you don't know music theory, your brain knows and understands the relationships between the notes.

>>70344236
/thread

op is it's like saying you have to be a gastroenterologist in order for your body to process nutrients right

>>70344236
Not really. You hear something that sounds good, but you don't understand the genius that lay behind certain modulations or hidden motivic developments.
There's no way around it, if you truly want to experience the art and craft of classical music you need to understand what you're hearing.

i think theory is great but its theory and its really just assigning names to things in the actual music. Like even if i didnt know what an hour or a minute was i could sit in my room shitposting for three days straight and know that its been a long fucking time. not knowing what glissando means doesnt mean you cant appreciate what you hear

I couldn't find a good website to teach me trough the whole theory shit. Anyone got recs?

>>70343719
Depends on the genre bruh. Rock and metal you kinda don't need to be able to sight read. Knowing the principles of music theory is important, yeah, but sight reading is essentially useless.

In classical and jazz though that shit is essential as fuck.

>people who can read music
>arent professionals

no fucks given boys

>>70343719
>tfw can read music but can barely play any instruments

>>70344660
>this guy won't ever read a Bach score and experience true divine ispiration

You're missing out

>>70343825
Good music and music that sounds good are synonymous.

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>>70343643
>Claims to be a Jazz and Classical fan
>a Jazz and Classical fan
>Jazz and Classical
>Jazz

>mfw a cryptofascist implies jazz and classical are on the same level near me

>>70344715
Leftism is a disease, and Western art music is reactionary.

i can read music and i dislike both jazz and classical

Music theory is useless.

ITT: people who are so bad at enjoying music they have to take classes to learn how to """read""" the behind-the-scenes sparknotes

Sad!

>>70344652
Treble clef starting from on the bottom line going up:
EFGABCDEF
Bass clef:
GABCDEFGA

Go practice.

>>70344846
t. non-musician pleb

>>70344236
Even though you don't know martial arts, your brain understands that you can swing your arms and legs to defend yourself.

>>70344659
>essentially useless

Not if you want to become a professional though (assuming you didn't strike it lucky and make your own stuff)

Every musician who loves playing to the extent of making it their career needs to learn how to sight read

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>>70344714
>People believe this

>>70343820
This is exactly the type of response I would expect from someone who "doesn't have time to read"

>>70344982
The only thing you would really need it for is being a session musician. No thanks to that. I've played in bands (cover bands and original projects) for over ten years and haven't needed to sight read once. As I said though, it depends on the genre.

>>70344953
thanks: being a music-listener is actually far more important and significant than being a musician, but nice try

>>70344982
oh god yeah i forgot how much i want to be a professional so some other dickhead can pay me to play drums on his song

i'll never live the dream quite like you, will i?

>>70345081
That's fine just don't expect us to take you seriously in literally any conversation about music. We're gonna discard everything you say because you don't understand what you're listening to.

>>70345134
well how can you understand what you're listening to if you didn't make it in the first place?

unless you're the artist yourself or maybe know them personally, you can't actually ever know for sure what you're listening to.

Also if you claim to be a musician but don't know shit about production (mixing, mastering, treatments, mics, etc) then call yourself a pro at anything

and no DAW doesnt count you cunt

>>70345124
Wait you're a drummer and you can't read drum sheet music? Are you fucking retarded? I learned that shit in like a week when I was literally 12.
Like, ok you may not need it now but it's literally the fucking easiest shit in the world to understand...

>>70345173
Except I can cause I'm a musician, and I understand how music works. What are you even talking about? That makes no sense at all.

>>70345234
sorry to inform you but suppose i'm a musician and i make my music using a secret method therefore you can't understand my music because i won't tell you my method. therefore you can't really say that you understand music because i could easily make a ton of music that you will never be able to understand

>>70345314
It's funny how you think that makes sense.

>>70345314
I can listen to the melodies and know what scales and modes you're using, I can listen to the time signature, I can listen to the tone and timbre to figure out what effects you're putting onto your instruments, there's literally nothing you could do that I wouldn't be able to identify and pull apart to analyse...

>>70344958

retarded comparison.
Even though I don't know martial arts, I can appreciate the skills and the moves of a martial arts expert.

>>70345124
Mindblowing how you got angry at that post

All I was saying is passionate musicians who want to make it their career need the right skills. Nothing wrong with hobbyists

>>70345494
im not angry i just look down on musicians who are musicians but aren't artists

>>70344958
And you would get the living shit kicked out of you by literally anyone who's either bigger and stronger than you, slightly faster, or has had literally any training. You can't watch MMA and understand the intricacies of what each person is doing either. You don't understand the sport. You don't know what you're seeing.
Just like you don't know what you're listening to.

>>70343643
This is true for classical, but jazz? Are you retarded? Do you know jack shit about what you're talking about.

>>70345523
>drummer
>musician
Pick one.

>>70343721
I can actually do this, does this mean I can like movies.

>>70345548
If you call yourself a jazz musician and can't read music you're not a jazz musician.

>>70345523
Gotta pay the bills, why not do it via your passion. I'm sure they all make their own music too.

Problem is breaking into the industry is practically impossible. You can have all the talent in the world and still need insane luck to get anywhere.

>>70345533
and yet you would get the living shit kicked out of you for implying you're better at enjoying something than i am

>>70345593
Jesus christ I cant tell if you're actually this dumb are just b8ing.

It's kind of an old school idea that music has to be written based strictly on rules and theory. I think back in the day, people really thought that music was like some sort of mathematical proof to solve. If it sounds good, it is good, I think that's the only actual rule. Everything else is more of a guideline, or an idea that someone once had that worked sometimes.

>>70345416
i'm not using any scales or modes. no, i'm using all totally proprietary stuff that you would know absolutely nothing about

>>70345650
I didn't say I'm better at enjoying it. I said you don't understand why it's impressive. Stop being so sensitive.
Also, you don't understand martial arts, like you said. So like. Good luck with that.

>>70345692
I hope this is bait. Seriously.

>>70345744
look around, this entire thread is bait

however, bait does not disqualify something from being true

if you think that statement is bait then you probably don't understand the philosophy of music very well, or of anything else for that matter

>>70345795
There is virtually nothing musically someone could do that can't be analysed, identified and then imitated.

>>70345830
analysed? sure
identified? maybe
imitated? lol of course

but, understood? no

>>70343643
>Claims to be a fan of music
>Doesn't play an instrument

>>70345681
>If it sounds good, it is good
Literally wrong, 99% of the classical canon repertoire was written for other composers.
Do you really think that Beethoven wrote the 32th sonata just to make it ''sound good''? How dense can you be? You're clearly full of shit, I'm pretty sure you've literally never ever talked to a composer, nor have read anything about it.

what about the many great musicians/composers who not only didn't know music theory, but were even fucking blind (Ray Charles, Lennie Tristano, Art Tatum, Stevie Wonder, Blind Willie McTell, Blind Lemon Jefferson...)?

>>70345919
Depends what you mean by understood. From a I'm not talking from any kind of esoteric point of view, just a technical point of view of understanding how something is made and what about it makes it so impressive.

>>70345999
Dunno how that extra "From a" got in there.

>>70343643
music theory doesn't help in the understanding of music although it can be very useful (still, not mandatory) when MAKING music.

>>70346045
Reading music might not, but music theory DEFINITELY does.

>>70345999
open a book that's written in spanish

you can read the whole thing and think "this author is really bad, none of these words are real and there's a lot of typos"

but of course this is because you were trying to read it in english so although you can analyse the familiar shapes on the page all that you want, you will never be able to understand it until you approach examining the work from the author's intended point of view

and since you're not always privy to that, well you ability to understand music exists really on a case-by-case basis

>>70345948
Yeah but there's a lot of music out there besides classical.

>>70343721
underrated

>>70346108
Poor example. Music has no language, it's universal.
People who understand music theory are far more likely to understand a piece of music.
That's an objective truth.

>>70345948
nobody is talking about classical
classical doesn't sound good
classical sounds like shit

i feel everytime music theory is mentioned several people on /mu/ get nervous breakdowns

>>70343721
>comparing pleb tier art forms to the highest form of art there is
>thinking that makes sense

>>70346176
>choral lyrics don't have a language
you're a dummy

>People who understand music theory are far more likely to understand a piece of music written with that specific music theory in mind
ftfy

I'm a fan, but that's it. I claim no authority over music in general.

>>70345977
>didn't know music theory

Bullshit. Theory can be learned in many more ways than reading from a book, all will have learned from playing with other musicians and having an ear/curiosity for what works musically. Jazz are Blues are the defining genres of improvisation and progression, you don't master them without a theoretical brain.

how do you know when you can read music? i know what notes are on the paper and how long its played for, but i cant tell how a piece will be like just by simply reading

>>70346239
>listening to music for the lyrics
Absolutely plebian

>with that specific music theory in mind
...Do you understand what music theory actually is?

>Claims to be a Jazz and Classical fan
>Doesn't know Music Theory
They claimed to like music, not to know theory.
>>70343825
>They probably can't explain why besides "muh sounds good".
>probably
Only a possiblity.
What does it change to know it? just pinpoint out the technicisms?
That's not good either, you know it.

>>70346322
Practice.

>>70345523

what does "artist" mean to you?

>>70346316
this

Why do people assume that "music theory" only means "reading sheet music"?

>>70343643
>>70343719
>a technical understanding of music is somehow more important than its visceral appreciation
I know this is b8 but the fact that some people actually try and justify this is shitty
>>70346176
music theory is a language prescribed to music though, anon

>>70344652
musictheory.net

>>70346409
Music theory =/= reading sheet music

>>70346316
based theorytards will retcon mastery of music theory onto anyone held to be a great musican by the general consensus

>>7034633
what, do you listen to noise music and try to make out the b-minor major 10th melody or something?

music theories are the equivalent of human languages in this analogy. there are things you can convey and understand in some music theories, and some you can't convey in others.

>>70346471
I know that

>>70346498
So what are you talking about then?
How in literally any situation is someone who understands music theory gonna be less equipped to understand something?

>>70346898
because they're going to be hard wired to assume some music has for example rhythms or chords when it actually doesn't

a person not already indoctrinated by these limited concepts will not feel the need to try and interpret things that might not actually be there

>>70347005
You realise music theory accounts for things like that, right?

>>70347121
You realise my post accounts for music theory accounting for things like that like that, right?

in other words: devoid of any citation or evidence, You realise how utterly unconvincing your post just was, right?

>>70346898
I never said that either you dip, all I was pointing out is that you claimed music is universal and has no language, yet western music theory is a system/language prescribed to it.

>>70347190
Give me an example of a piece that fits the description of what you're talking about then, I'll show you how to break it down with music theory.

>>70347223
No, notation is what you're talking about.
see >>70346471

>>70347245
sure, this piece lasts for 8 minutes:

randomized tones ranging between 40Hz and 2,000Hz. each is played for a unique duration of anywhere between 0.01 and 5 seconds before moving onto the next tone

neither any tone nor any duration is repeated within the piece.

>>70347276
it isn't though
I'm not sure why you think I'm talking about how music is written on paper rather than the tools and ideas used in composition that are music theory

>>70347345
That is by definition not music. It's a sound experiment.
Even so you could analyse the timbre and texture, that alone would give you a 1up on understanding it compared to someone without any knowledge of music theory.

>>70347393
Music theory can be used to analyse any piece of music from any part of the world.

>>70343643
how can I get started?

>>70347554
except for >>70347345, it would seem

>>70347527
>That is by definition not music. It's a sound experiment.
lol please show me the definition that excludes my musical piece from being music

in the meanwhile, have a few additional details about my piece:
>there is no timbre nor texture to analyze: all tones are pure (no harmonics) and real-valued.
>i only called it random for your benefit. it is actually totally composed and not generated by any random process (although not like the distinction even matters)

>>70345655
He's right tho

T. Someone who's been in multiple jazz bands.

>>70347658
https://www.musictheory.net/lessons
literally google how to learn music theory, the basics are really not that difficult

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>>70347681
>what is harmony

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>>70347688
looks hard and long and borings

makes me head hurted

>>70347745
das ok lil bubby you don't have to

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>>70347813
tank u

>>70347658
>>70347688
>>70347745
>>70347813
>>70347876
Holy kek I'm fucking dying. This really shouldn't be that funny.

>>70347688
>>70347813

haha this dude >>70347745 was not me, thanks for the link! i definitely don't think that knowing music theory is THE most important thing to appreciate music, but as someone who's trying to run a shitty amateur music blog, it seems like a bit of theory would be very helpful to write about jazz especially without having to resort to pitchfork-style vague adjectives to describe tone and texture and shit

>>70347345
wtf am I reading lol
worst excuse of all time to not learn music theory.

>>70348067
I think he's autistic.
But not like the Rain Man kind.

>>70347744
>what is or

holy kek, an antiquated definition from google

>>70348125
you havent analyzed my piece

stop shitposting and get on that

>>70344715
This is very bad b8.
No wonder you have only 2 replies.

>>70345612
If you are really good or if you innovative in some way, you will eventually get in the industry

>>70348237
It's not music by any definition. Your piece only (theoretically) exists to question existing definitions. It's maybe a philosophical statement, or a sound experiment.
The tones aren't organised in any way, shape or form, it's literally just random tones.
There's also absolutely nothing about it that would be easier to understand without knowledge of music theory, so it doesn't prove your point in any way.
Also
>lol please show me the definition that excludes my musical piece from being music
>not that definition though
Nice goalpost shifting.

>>70348428
That's not true in the slightest.

tfw don't need to waste my time learning stupid shit like music theory and actually spend my time learning the glorious math and fabulous physics aka things that actually matter

>>70348505
>Physics matters
>advanced mathmatics matters
Subjective. If I don't want a career in those fields I can use the same argument to justify studying music.

>>70348505
This is b8.

>>70348439
the piece of music i simply described to you (and mistakenly left up to you to actually imagine) isn't any less valid as a music than any specific example i might have pulled from youtube.

once it would be committed to some recorded format for you to listen to, it'd cease to be random, woudln't it? whether i'd actually composed it, or actually used some random generator to put my piece toegheter, however it came to be doesn't actually change how you interpret it, now does it?

so when it was said that
>music theory accounts for things like that
i guess you just mean it says "that's not music"

sad!

>>70348575
tfw music is math and physics, simpleton

>claims to be a huge jazz and classical fan
>can't name more than 30 artists in both genres
ugh

>>70348624
>tfw music is math and physics, simpleton

yeah right, I could agree with you if musicians actually knew what harmonic analysis is...

>>70348624
Explain to me how not knowing music theory would help someone "understand" that piece.
Also, there would be things to pick up about it after a few listens, with the intervals that show up, creating a deeper meaning for it, to someone with theoretical knowledge.

>>70345453
You won't know exactly what you're seeing. You won't be able to dissect exactly what's happening and what details are impressive. You'd never be able to participate in the art or be a legitimate judge of it.

>>70348715
musicians will be obsolete in the next 100 years anyway

>>70348754
excuse me but those things were always present in the recording, why are they only appearing to you after a few listens? my piece should not be generating an extra meanings whatsoever at random whenever you decide it to.

>>70348857
>You'd never be able to participate in the art or be a legitimate judge of it.
and yet, you can still be a legitimate fan of it :o)

>>70348715
How does the knowledge an individual possesses affect the actuality of something?

>>70348902
>and yet, you can still be a legitimate fan of it :o)

You'll never understand it, though. You'll forever be stuck responding to "Why do you like this?" with "Oh, it's fun." or "I just like it lol."

>>70348902
The more listens, the more intervals that show up, there would in all likelihood be arpeggiated chords that show up, too, which would go completely unnoticed to someone without theoretical knowledge.
>my piece should not be generating an extra meanings whatsoever at random whenever you decide it to.
That's what happens with every piece ever made though, people project their own meaning onto things, and that meaning changes over time.
In fact the artists intended meaning often plays backseat to the listeners meaning.

You haven't explained how not having knowledge of music theory would help someone understand that piece though.

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>>70348923
>Claims to be a Music Theory fan
>Doesn't know how to Fourier Transform

>claims to like food
>can't cook

Are these people the biggest lolcows?

>>70349039
>The more listens, the more intervals that show up
wrong, those intervals are always there to begin with

>there would in all likelihood be arpeggiated chords that show up, too
arpeggiation requires a more constant sense of timing than the one in my piece, so this is excluded from possibility

>which would go completely unnoticed to someone without theoretical knowledge
so i can't see a color if i don't know what that color is called?

>people project their own meaning onto things
sorry, i don't do this becasue it's dumb as hell and disrespectful to do that

>In fact the artists intended meaning often plays backseat to the listeners meaning.
lol i guess you'll never actually understand art yourself. sad!

>You haven't explained how not having knowledge of music theory would help someone understand that piece though.
simple, here: it's because they wouldn't waste all their time and in your case limited brainpower "fanficcing" a bunch of goddamn notes together instead of using their brains to actually enjoy the music to its fullest potential

>>70349171
this is b8
8/10
You had me going. Well played.

>>70343808
>Eh,
kys

>>70349220
the irony is that it's all true.

but no hard feelings: i hope you have fun enjoying things more than i can enjoy things.

while it lasts, ya know?

>claims to like video games
>can't write sofware

Are these people the biggest lolcows?

>>70349312
>comparing the lowest tier of """""art""""" to the highest tier of art

>>70349550
Since when are we discussing literature?

You know what if you haven't been a classically trained musician since five-ten years old I don't wanna hear your opinion on anything

Just learning music theory now doesnt cut it

>>70343765
kek

>>70349564
Music > literature
Only fools think otherwise.

>>70349688
Ironic shitposting is only funny when you're somewhat creative about it. That was just low effort and low energy. Don't bother replying to me ever again if you're going to continue being such a shitter.

>>70349714
Ironic shitposting is only funny when you're somewhat creative about it. That was just low effort and low energy. Don't bother replying to me ever again if you're going to continue being such a shitter.

>>70345069
maybe that's why you didn't become a professional. Nobody talked about hobby musicians here.

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>>70349053
>tfw shitpost response
>tfw you're actually knowledgeable on shitpost's absurd retort

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>>70349714
>tfw forgot to add only took an hour to trudge through enough wikipedia to finally feel confident enough to anonymously respond to an anonymous post on the internet

>>70350227
>>70349833
dqmn its late

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>>70350227
>tfw projecting so they don't find out you only know about this from 5 hours of browsing google results for "music theory"

>>70346181
We're talking about music.
If it's not classical it doesn't qualify as music, just noise.

>>70347345
That's called serialism.

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>>70350868
>tfw hasn't taken pre-calculus yet

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>>70351402
>tfw he only knows about calculus from 20 minutes of browsing google results for "math"

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>>70351478
>

>>70351553
xD

>>70343735
2040

>>70343825
That doesn't stop them from liking it.

Maybe the OP would be better if it referred specifically to critics or people who feel the need to voice their opinion on jazz and classical, rather than just fans.

>>70351010
this

I would draw the line between music that is mostly commercially motivated and music that comes from a real musical personality. I know that the line is somewhat arbitrary but everybody knows for himself how to categorize the entirety of music

>>70343719
>but they can do it anyway

>>70344585
I agree to some extent, in order to have 100% total appreciation for something you need to intimately understand how it works, but it's absolutely possible and normal to still enjoy something without being an expert on it

I know music theory and play an instrument, but I still casually listen to music all the time without thinking about the theory at all and can still totally enjoy it.
I might be aware that the artist did some modal interchange or used some interesting progression or interesting use of relative keys or whatever, but a lot of the time I wont know exactly what they did I just know something interesting happened and I have a vague idea of how they did it. Lots of people who don't know theory feel the same thing when they hear music, even though they don't know enough theory or have a good enough ear to exactly tell what happened in the moment, they can still appreciate it.

on the other hand, if they're a smart person they should naturally try to learn why something sounds the way it does
but still, someone doesn't need to know chromatic leading voice and harmonic fields to hear the floaty impressionist nature of Debussy.