So what's the deal with music critics and their pro-punk/anti-metal

Much like Christgau, they're nu-males

well punk is generally good and metal is bad so it's probably because of that

Punk and Metal are both for children.

>>70018789
>punk is generally good

Punk has its roots in music that was already being done in the 50s in Rock n Roll. Pretty simple idea: not super complex, but upbeat and visceral. When metal first happened it was this weird amalgamation of of underlying concepts from Blues' instrumental playing, earlier jazz's "riff" concept, classical music's approach to music always progressing, and Rock n Roll's visceral feel. It's ultimately such a weird combination of underlying concepts that it not only confused music critics of that time, but still confuses people today.

>>70018795
I'm a kindergarten teacher and i would be pleased if you stopped spreading lies about my students because if not i'm certainly obliged to consult PTA.
Thank you in advance.

Metal is a genre with extreme limitations: timbrally, lyrically, compositionally, Metal is one of the most strictly held in genres. The timbre of an electric guitar, along with the dynamic contrast, is fairly immutable. The themes range from White fantasy to White politics. The music sticks to conventional Western tonality, but never anything as interesting as where they imply to be going.

Metal music isn't bad, but in an artistic sense it has little to no bearing.

Punk by nature is inherently political. Its more babby offspring pop punk usually isn't, but instead tends to focus on teenager life which kind of hearkens back to 50s rock-and-roll.

Metal can be political, but a lot of times it's just escapist fantasy.

I like both metal and punk, but punk is definitely more "real world" which would appeal to the "intellectual" side of music critics, metal, at least stereotypically, is a more fantasy and escapist based genre. Both have their artsy / thoughtful sides as well (art punk, post-punk, atmospheric sludge, blackgaze etc) as well as their rock stupid aspects (power metal, NYHC, Oi!, slam)... but generally speaking punk is more rooted in reality than metal.

However, I think the world of "music critique" is pseudo-intellectual verbal masturbation at it's finest. Have you ever read the "professional reviews" for say, Beyonce albums? It's absolute fucking nonsense. Pop music for the masses should not be analysed at such a deep level. Yet here we are.

Metal to a large extent relies on the instruments to deliver the message of the song rather than the lyrics. The trouble with this approach is that it's easier to describe words than sounds.

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ITT: /mu/ drones that haven't listened to metal aside from the most entry-level p4k core albums discuss what's wrong with the genre

>>70018745
Because punk is SJW bull shit that requires no ability but pushes the medias narrative

>>70019016
This is true. There's only so much one can do with 4/4 time, two guitars, one bass, and one drummer. Add to that the fact that rock musicians can seldom read music or understand musical theory/composition.

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>>70019016
>The themes range from White fantasy to White politics

>>70019128

>Punk by nature is inherently political.

wrong

It's got a lot to do with the demographics of the two genres. If you remember from high school, usually metal was popular with bikers, skateboarders, stoners, and Dungeons & Dragons nerds. Punk is more popular with the 2deep4u Tumblr artfags which tend to be the times that become music journalists.

If you remember Christgau's comments about metalheads being almost exclusively white males, this isn't incorrect. Women pretty rarely listen to metal, while punk attracts a lot more female fans.

>>70018745
music critics are the worst...

they don't understand music that well, they're just good enough writers and they're pretentious enough to make you think they not only know what they're talking about, but are authoritative about it. >>70019201 this guy put it well

When an album is called "critically acclaimed" I just think so what?? That's like me saying "I played it in a room full of people and most of them liked it"

post-punk's way better than punk; there should've been a post-metal movement

>>70019016
This is not true at all metal is one of the most vast and plentiful genres for new styles and sounds just look at death metal alone
Death
Cannibal corpse
Atheist
If those three sound alike you must be retarded. If you still aren't convinced check out thrash metal
Metallica
Slayer
Morbid saint
Still your retarded if those sound alike but I guess try doom metal next
Electric wizard
Cathedral
Black Sabbath then
If you aren't convinced by these three again you are retarded
The last thing I can do to convince you would be to compare the three sets together if you think doom and death sound the same, you are on the wrong board anon.

>>70019429
>Christgau's comments about metalheads being almost exclusively white males, this isn't incorrect

you really have no idea what you're talking about. south america has a huge number of fanatic metalheads

>>70019429
Let's take it as writ that metalheads are 95% white males. So most pop fans are 11 year old girls and most rap fans are black males. So why is it somehow bad for metal to appeal to one demographic but not those other genres?

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>This thread again
>same butthurt 2gud4u /mu/shitters
>same butthurt dude metla lmao fags

>>70019499
Because white men aren't a demographic. White men should be held in cages and milked for their semen. That or just killed so the scum that is the white race will automatically die off or be forced to breed with superior colored races

>>70019524
THIS is what modern day punk is all about!

>>70019516
GREAT projection friend-o

punk and metal are both shit by the way

>>70019549
I like metal and I can Respeck this opinion can you punk scum be capable enough to not force your invalidic opinions down our throats.

>>70019499
You have to look at it from the nu male perspective...

Also as I said, punk has more female fans than metal does, it's not as lopsidedly male.

Metal is a working class, redneck kind of music. Punk is an "arty", Tumblrcore kind of music.

>>70019457
there is a post-metal movement

>>70019475
i can tell you're underage

>>70019475
Metal fans exaggerate the diversity because they have to. Every subtle difference that in any other genre would be inconsequential becomes a different sub genre in Metal.

This is immature and shows a lack of musical understanding.

>>70019615
what is post-metal? jesu?

>>70019201
>However, I think the world of "music critique" is pseudo-intellectual verbal masturbation at it's finest. Have you ever read the "professional reviews" for say, Beyonce albums? It's absolute fucking nonsense. Pop music for the masses should not be analysed at such a deep level. Yet here we are.

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/music/phair-03.php

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/rock/jackson-04.php

The classic examples. :^)

>>70019630
No that shows metal's superiority in its fan base were smart enough to spot subtle differences so we can properly describe the sound of a band to a fellow fan so they understand the proper mindset to listen to said music.

>>70019637
Metalcore.

>>70019637
yeah i'd say Jesu could be placed underneath post-metal, it's quite a broad term to be honest but i think post-metal has more connection with post-rock than post-punk as a descriptor.

isis, neurosis, pelican, cult of luna.. hell you could even include deafheaven, mastodon, dillinger escape plan, godflesh, envy, boris, nadja, earth.

basically just hipster metal bands ha

>>70019663
>No that shows metal's superiority in its fan base were smart enough

i like metal but what the hell are you talking about

>>70019630
>>70019663
Metal is so vast that across genres it will require different mindsets to properly digest and understand the music

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People legitimately aren't equipped to listen to metal, which in terms of being an outsider genre (as far as post-Venom/Bathory/Slayer extreme metal goes) makes sense, insofar that outsider genres are opposed to cultural norms. Hence statements like >>70019201 that define [artsy / thoughtful] metal (to say nothing of le artsy punk) as blackgaze and atmosludge, i.e. in terms of their ostensible """artsiness""". Tired old high/low dichotomy bullshit. There's the stereotype of prog fans leveling the same charges against punk, but are they right then?

>>70019663
No, it shows most metal fans are auitstic and love conflict, even when discussing music with fellow metal fans.

REEEEE THIS IS POST-BLACK PUNKMETAL NOT BLACK METAL REEEEEE

Austism.

>>70019707
See>>70019712

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>>70019630
>Exaggerate the diversity

Kek

>>70019663
Are you 14? This kind of pretension and ignorance of other music is typical in teenagers.

>>70019721
>Austism


Autism.

>>70019721
It's not autism people with higher IQ's enjoy argument I guarantee you majority of Mensa members listen to metal jazz and classical music and regularly argue over which is superior.

>>70019729
Nope I also enjoy jazz does liking jazz suddenly make me 60 because jazz is more typical of older demographics

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/MU/ DRONES COME CRAWLING WHEN MY RIFFS ARE ROARING

>>70019848
You're definitely a teenager.

Punk is more interesting from a sociological POV than metal.

>>70020311
Cool thing we are talking about MUSIC here then, right? Punk has nothing interesting to offer musically. Even the post-punk stuff has been left obsolete by electronic music and the classical/jazz it would often rip from.

>>70020336
>Cool thing we are talking about MUSIC here then, right? Punk has nothing interesting to offer musically

I was saying why critics like punk.

Punk is more expressive and poetic. Metal comes off as flatter and less intellectual. Although I can enjoy both, punk is more grounded and relatable. Metal has its basis in escapism and I think many people don't "get" it.

t. music critics find punk more relatable

>>70018745

Most music critics are garbage because they talk about lyrics way more than the music

>>70019499

White people don't deserve to have a group identity because of all the awful shit and oppression they've done over the years. They are not oppressed in any way, so there is no need for identity or pride

>>70020620

See >>70019264

>>70018745
Punk has way more panty wearing fuck life lets burn this bitch down types. Useless critics like this.

Metal is alive and well while punk died after Reagan's first term. It's that simple. :^)

>>70019264

100% this.

Music critics honestly don't know how to talk about music, so they mostly talk about lyrics instead.

Some kinds of metal like thrash owe a great deal to punk, for example Metallica used to wear punk T-shirts in the early days and Anthrax were well-respected by the punk community. In fact moshing had its origins in the hardcore punk scene.

Thrash bands have tended to get a little more respect from critics for this reason, while Dio and Iron Maiden...hopeless.

>>70020484
>t.

Real punk like Dead Kennedys and The Minutemen had an actual message in their songs. Metal OTOH is just escapist entertainment for middle schoolers, not that it can't be fun as fuck sometimes.

That's of course ignoring the faux mall punk like Green Day and Goo Goo Dolls.

>>70020931
>Goo Goo Dolls

Is this b8?

>>70020937
I wasn't born in 1999 like yourself, I remember hearing Iris played on the radio every goddamn fucking day for almost three years.

Aren't you generalizing a little? Lots of metal groups like Mastodon, Meshuggah, and Opeth get critical acclaim.

>>70020931
>had an actual message
kys rockist scum

>>70021002
Welll that's not lots

Look at AOTY lists on any major publication, there will always be a lot of rap or indie or punk album but almost no metal except hipster bullshit like Deafheaven

>>70021029
>rockist scum
Not an argument retard

Err, just what critics are you talking about, OP? If you mean Rolling Stone Magazine or Christgau, who honestly cares what they think? When have they ever been right?

>>70020975
>go to the Goo Goo Dolls rym page.
>one of the tags is Punk Rock

What alternate universe have I woken up in?

Because metal has always been a fairly niche genre unlike punk

>>70019016
You clearly don't listen to metal

>>70021066
I don't care whatever GGD or Green Day may have been in 1991, they're first and primarily associated with bland, phony mall/radio punk.

>>70019475
>>70021071
why do all subgenres sound the same and vary in the tiniest thing possible? ive heard my metalhead friends explain how black metal is different from death metal because of the vocal techniques and use of trem picking or whatever, the differences just seem so slight it feels like it shouldnt even be a different genre

>>70019201
All this

>>70019383
Metal uses all sorts of time signatures, dingus. Probably more often than most popular genres of music.
Some of the most complex modern music is metal. But also like all genres there are shitty watered down versions.

There's no denying that a lot of metal is cartoony and infantile. Having said that, a lot of the first generation metal in the 70s-80s was p. good before James Hetfield became a stone cold racist.

Actually, on the punk side, Johnny Ramone was a douchebag as well--read Lester Bangs's "The White Noise Supremacists"--although Joey was a great guy (God rest his soul). Generally speaking, punk speaks to me more in a personal sense than metal.

Punk was first and foremost a social movement, they took stands and had more to say and prove, it also supported the belief that you didn't need to be virtuosos at your instruments. While metal has a cultural identity, it lacks social relevance and is likely uninteresting to music critics.

I listened to both as a kid, but I still enjoy punk while I haven't listened to metal in eons; it just doesn't speak to me at all nowadays.

>>70021107
Well they aren't technically a different genre there sub genres they are all metal that's why it's in there name

>>70021054
>Not an argument

the level of ignorance in this thread is amazing...metal has nothing meaningful to say?

riiight.

it's not intelligent?

I'd say it's the people posting stupid shit like that, that are the ones lacking the intellect.

Excerpt from an interview with Christgau:

Interviewer: I find it interesting how you arrive at certain conclusions about certain genres. For example, you openly dislike heavy metal. Why is that?
Christgau: Because it's symphonic bombast without the technical complexity or artfulness of classical music, although it does have a lot of virtuosity. I can say one thing, I'm 72 years old. This isn't the time for me to start liking loud guitar solos. That music is so masculine in a retrograde way. I don't like it. It's a very 19th century idea of power.

I don't like punk, metal, power chords, etc.

Green Day having any sociological or cultural relevance? Lyl.

It is just a question of marketing, and of being radio and TV friendly. Green Day, Tokio Hotel or Eminem don't play music they are just an invented commercial product that gets the "secret desires" of schoolgirls... How could the Iron Maiden do that?

P.S. the answer to your question is just "because little girls* don't like guitar solos"

*including Christgau and other such nu males

>>70021107
>vary in the tiniest thing possible? ive heard my

If you think there is only a slight difference between

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oJntDxMMO8

And
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1H1EnyovAE

Then you're a legit idiot

Punk has a better story behind it and makes for a more interesting article.

>>70021409
>That music is so masculine in a retrograde way. I don't like it. It's a very 19th century idea of power.
truly the nu-male godfather

It's hard to give a definitive answer, the problem is quite complex if we take into account that music critics, especially on the mass media are rarely completely independent from the marketing trends and strategies set by record companies.

However one of the possible answers is that the most widespread kind of metal music, and thus the most discussed by critics, is not of the highest quality.

Many musically and lyrically complex metal bands remain quite unknown to the mass public: even the most popular of them like the already mentioned Opeth, Mastodon etc still get significant less airplay than more commercial "metal" bands like Metallica or all those cool 'core kids. This is what gives metal a bad reputation among the less discerning critics, and the main reason behind all those posts like "metal is mindless screaming, just noise etc".

It was like that in the in the late 80s: Metallica got famous and I may concur they were just "mindless entertainment" but what about the first technical death bands like Atheist or Cynic which were formed in the same period ? No one could argue it is not quality music.

Today it's the same: most people identify all metal with Korn or Trivium but that's not the real thing. I firmly believe that "metal" is a label which describes a very broad spectrum of musical offerings and that there might be a narrow gap within what's intelligent and what isn't; thus i understand it could not be easy to distinguish: at a first careless listen a random song by Cannibal Corpse could sound just the same as Death's Symbolic, but while the former is just loud gore inspired music, the latter is some intelligently composed and technical metal which definitely has "something to say".

>>70018899
it is, post-punk probably has more good music than anything else in rock

>>70018745
"If this group makes it I'll have to commit suicide. From the first note you know you don't want to hear any more."
-About Uriah Heep's debut album. To me it seems that some people just can't get the aggressiveness of the instrumentals, and that's okay. The problem starts when they think their opinion in a genre that they don't like, has any value.

>>70021923
>It was like that in the in the late 80s: Metallica got famous and I may concur they were just "mindless entertainment"

you'd be surprise

ol' 'tallica had lots of songs relevant to real issues (such as environmental destruction in Blackened)
they were much better than punk bands in this respect because they didn't shoehorn crappy political ideology into it, also their riffwork and composition was fucking excellent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjAhgd9K-8o

>>70021976
but the opening of Gypsy is great

I will say that most guitar gods like Vai, Eddie Van Halen, Malmsteen, etc shred at some point or another. I've rarely heard of any punk band with virtuoso musicians other than possibly a drummer, guitarists almost never. And while some punk bands once in a while will write an interesting song, 99% of punk is just pounding out basic 3-chord rock. If a metal band tried playing at the Ramones' skill level, they'd be run out of town on a rail.

Likewise, bands like system of a down can break out of the norm, both musically and lyrically and often talk about politics in their music. Now this is not much different from bands like dead kennedy's so why some of you people seem to think punk is such an intellectual genre and metal isn't, is laughable at best and moronic at worst.

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>>70022036
>If a metal band tried playing at the Ramones' skill level, they'd be run out of town on a rail.

(not true by the way)

Lots of underground metal like Mastodon, Isis, Tool, Sunn, etc has relevant social commentary and is a long way from mindless stadium buttmetal of the Motley Crue school.

Also Television was one of the proto-punk groups in the 70s and they had a really good guitarist.

>>70022144
>Mastodon
>Tool
>underground

>>70022012
Yeah, it's simple, catchy, and they way it introduces the riff and the songs is invigorating, and on top of it has a nice groove.

>>70022144
>all those meme bands

>underground

>>70022144
All true. Metal _can_ be intelligent and contain social commentary, but the leather/studs/snakeskin boots/bring your daughter to the slaughter/hail Satan nonsense was completely pointless to anyone older than 14.

>>70022299
Only hipster nu-males legit care about lyrics

Lyricism in metal is just a plus, it's cool when well done but completely disregardable when it's shit

>>70021956
tough competition

I agree that a band like Devo who made snarky songs about the decay of society would have been more interesting to an adult than AC/DC.

>>70022451
>Devo
>punk

>AC/DC
>metal

>>70022299
Yeah I agree with that, the problem is that these outdated 80s stereotypes still plague metal today. As for leather/spikes/silly hairdos, how many punks had Mohawks and leather spike collars? Shit, by the 2000s you had Green Day wearing leather spike belts and mascara. At least with metal, the poofter costumes were isolated to Los Angeles fag metal and soon died.

>>70022478
Easy as it is to nitpick, back in the day, Devo were lumped in with the New Wave/punk movement and AC/DC with metal, even though punk/metal purists would gladly dispute that.

>all this talk ITT about lyrical social commentary

Am I the only one who thinks the social commentary in punk is laughably bad? In almost all music really, though punk is the worst offender. You're more likely to get a worthwhile opinion from a random person on the street or in a store than from a musician.

>>70022516
>New Wave/punk
two separate things

AC/DC's style of hard rock is not metal

>>70022496
It's true that sadly, the curse of Spinal Tap lives on decades after metal bands stopped doing that.

And Green Day being punk? Don't make me laugh. Maybe they were punk when George HW Bush was president, sure not at any point in the last 25 years.

>>70021206
>>70021154
I'm old enough to remember the 80s and to be perfectly honest, I got bored of preachy political messages in rock by about 1988. Maybe critics should be clued into the fact that not everyone wants to listen to a band whining about Republicans all the time.

>>70022144
I have Mastodon's Leviathan and it doesn't really grab me, although I don't hate it. I also have Opeth's Watershed but the growl vocals and Satanic crap put me off. I also have a few SOAD albums which also have too many metal cliches as well as a sentimentality I don't like.

I love Marquee Moon and the S/T album, but is that even metal? I have an album by 80s metal band Europe that I quite like as well.

>>70022954
Mastodon is an extremely overrated band so it's no surprise they wouldn't click with you. Opeth are great but Watershed is not their best album, also you need to be open to harsh vocals. SOAD is hard rock, not metal. Marquee Moon is not metal. Europe is 80s glam cheese, which also isn't metal.

>>70021066
They first started out as a lo-fish punk rock band. Then they turned into pop/rock faggotry.

>>70022605
don't ever trust a man who plays guitar is true enough

I think the generalization of critical opinion is less important than it was 30 years ago. Nowadays I think there's a lot more veneration for Sabbath, Metallica, and other classic metal bands, especially because unlike those first generation rock critics like Christgau who were products of the 50s-60s, the younger generation of critics have always lived in a world with metal, and they're more accepting of it.

There's also the cultural divide; music critics like Bangs and Christgau were/are Bohemian hipsters, they perceived punk as artsy and socially conscious, and they just couldn't identify with metal's bombast, violence, and sexual aggression, or its white trash fanbase.

>>70023192
To quote Christgau, "I admire metal's obsessiveness, integrity, and brutality, but I can't stand its delusions of grandeur, or how it misapprehends reactionary ideas of nobility."

t. metal is falsely artsy and not intellectual

>>70023330
>t. metal is falsely artsy and not intellectual

you are using t. incorrectly

Honestly, I couldn't care less which critics like and dislike which genres. And regarding this notion of metal being "falsely artsy," how is that even possible? There is no "right" or "wrong" in art, it's all subjective, right?

>>70023401
Well said.

People like what they like. I love metal and don't like punk at all. Some are the complete opposite. So, who cares? Like what you like. Besides, most "professional" critics are friendless Betamax nu males anyway.

A talented musician can start out as punk, but once he develops some skill at his instrument, he'll generally stop playing punk rock.

As for critical acclaim, the 1980s were a long time ago and I'd be laughing if you think young critics of today prefer punk to metal.

>>70023550
I'm not denying the influence of classic metal bands, but if you compare albums like Paranoid, Sad Wings of Destiny, The Number of the Beast, Master of Puppets, and Reign In Blood, and then compare classic punk albums like Rocket to Russia, London Calling, Nevermind the Bollocks, Damaged, and Fresh Fruit For Rotten Vegetables, a rock critic will pick the latter almost every time.

Led Zeppelin were considered proto-metal at one time but I think now they're just seen as rock. Critics didn't have a problem linking Sabbath and Deep Purple with all the metal bands that came after, and metal as a whole owes more to Paranoid than LZ II, but it's still most peculiar how music critics view metal as inferior to punk.

>>70023726
Of all the albums you listed, I find most of the metal ones decent to fair, but I love most of the punk ones. I also think LZ are proto-metal, though not sure how they came to be detached from the genre (too much blues/folk sound, I think).

There aren't a lot of good metal bands anymore desu.

>>70023906
That depends on what kind of metal you like. If you like underground/extreme/-core metal, then life is good and has been so since the 90s. On the other hand, if you like hair/stadium/buttmetal, then you may as well invent yourself a time machine.

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>>70023906
Couldn't be more wrong

>>70024047
i need a time machine

Metal often gets compared to classical because it relies mainly on instruments instead of words to tell a story.

>It's a autists think the musical simplicity of punk is bad episode
>It's an autists think the musical complexity for complexity's sake in metal is bad

I think both genres tend to turn off normalfags, but punk has a political bent to it that metal can feature as well, but is not as dependent on it. Punk is less structured and lends itself more to raw energy than metal, also as someone else here said, metal fans are largely male while punk crosses gender lines more readily (the first generation punk movement in the 70s-80s had a whole bunch of prominent women in it).

>>70024212
>it's an autist autist autist autist episode

punk was shit get over it

Aside from overgeneralizing, I will also say that there's a bunch of strawmen being put up in this thread. Critics love what I call "classic" metal, meaning the big metal acts in the 70s-80s, hate hair metal, and have come around since the 90s with bands like Mastodon. Also a lot of stoner metal like Kyruss, Sleep, and Fu Manchu have gotten critical acclaim as well.

Like I said earlier, critics' dismissal of metal has less to do with the music itself than it does their dismissal of the fanbase.

>>70024413
>decry generalizations from critics
>apply it _to_ critics

I'm not a critic, but I have a lot of metalhead friends and I don't like metal.

>>70024500
I didn't complain about generalizations from critics, but generalizations about critics or critical opinion. These were the points I was trying to make:

1. Critics hating metal is generally limited to specific types of metal, especially 80s glam metal.
2. Critical disdain for metal IMO has less to do with the music than it does the critics' perception that metal fans are loud/stupid/redneck/white trash/sexist/whatever.

And yes I know I just made a generalization about critics. I only think hard for paying clients.

>>70019637
Largely garbage.

>>70019663
Dude just accept faggots will always hate us and move on.

>>70021064
Christgau seems to like a decent amount of metal at least musically despite dumping on everything else about it. He gave Slayer, Metallica, Motorhead, and Venom all decent enough ratings from what I remember.

>>70025010
He never reviewed Venom and the highest he ever gave a Metallica record was a B-, after spending most of said review insulting them.

>>70021956
Post-punk isn't punk though

>>70019728
>making genre names for every small difference in mood and instruments

>>70025138
A B- is decent grade.

>>70025272
EDM is even more autistic about it.

>>70022144
Say, why does everyone dislike Motley Crue? I saw them in 2012 and they put on a fun as fuck show.

>>70025807
Probably because they're shit. "Girls, Girls, Girls" is the worst song I've ever heard.

>>70025807
They're douchebags who make bad music, also Vince Neil killed some guy.

>>70025807
Shit band that were all image and no talent. My cousin saw them once in the 80s at a festival with Van Halen, Ozzy, AC/DC, and Gary Moore, and he said they put on the weakest show out of all those guys.

>>70025807
Just give one of their albums a spin and you'll see how shitty they are.

>>70025807
Girl band just like Bon Jovi. You may as well put on your sister's dress and eyeshadow if you like them.

Nikki Sixx and Tommy Lee seem like genuinely cool guys with an awesome sense of humor, but Vince Neil is a vile, disgusting excuse for a human being.

>>70025969
Yeah I know how Vince Neil killed the drummer from Hanoi Rocks in a drunk driving accident and the other guys in that band have never gotten over it, which is understandable.

MC were always crap, part of bad formula 80s hairspray rock, all reverb drums, Spandex, shredder guitar, and generic power ballads. There were so many of these bands you could barely tell them apart from one another and Motley were one of the biggest of the bunch. Sure, they sold a ton of albums, but it only proved that you can never go broke appealing to the lowest common denominator. Some people loved those bands, developed a nostalgic attachment to them, so...whatever. You like what you like and I'll like what I like.

Nikki Sixx is a talentless poseur. He thinks he's cool, but nobody else does. Still, they do have at least several songs I enjoy.

Also his autobiography is a fun read even if he probably did make up/exaggerate a lot of it.

Ever heard Crue's S/T with John Corabi at vocals? It wasn't actually too bad and no clue why they brought back the bloated ghost of Vince Neil.

>>70021956
post-punk != punk
fucking dipshit

>>70026333
Replacing a frontman is harder than replacing a bassist or something; you radically transform the entire essence of the band--see Black Sabbath and Judas Priest after trying different frontmen.

>>70026333
Nikki Sixx and Mick Mars really didn't want Vince back, they knew Corabi was a better singer and could also play rhythm guitar (two guitars would help expand their sound) but Elektra forced them to get that fatass drunk driver back.

Seriously. He kills some guy driving drunk, then his own daughter dies of cancer (karma's a bitch), and several years ago he got convicted of a DUI again. Talk about not learning from the first time.

>>70026066
Eh? Mick Mars isn't really a shredder, also he's a surprisingly good guitarist.

>>70019728
....Love Metal?

>>70022144
>Tool has multiple platinum albums, regularly sells out tours, has won Grammys
>Underground

>>70022144
>Mastodon, Isis, Tool, Sunn, etc
>relevant social commentary

Not really, it's all just vague personal/emotional/spiritual shit.
Motley Crue were the pure embodiment of 80's sunset strip lifestyle. That in itself is social commentary.

Punk seems more 'socially relevant' or interesting to critics because critics have an academic background that usually involves a big Marxist influence. So punk fits into their way of dissecting things in a more complementary way, because punk either postures as some kind of proletarian rebellion against the system, or it supposedly expresses a nihilism or dissolution that the critic can interpret as the result of capitalism.

The thing is though, that metal is much more authentically the sound of a working class demographic, and much more accurate a snapshot of their sensibilities and dreams. Which, similarly to blockbuster movies, shows that working class people want fun and powerful, inspiring symbols (which Marxist critics read as "escapism" rather than as a very real reflection of peoples' inner life and emotions and values - something actually much 'realer' and closer to the nature of the so-called 'proletariat's sensibilities than punk is). So metal shows things about the working people that the nerdy academic critic doesn't want to face (and so ignores) - that working class people hate Marxism, don't want to listen to boring "social realist" music any more than they want to watch boring "social realist" movies, and that the inner nature of people is, well, "problematic" and irrational... not something that can be fully 'educated' and gathered up into a functional utopian project.

So, rather than recognize that they're out of touch with people, the critic simply ignores and mocks metal and pretends that punk is the peoples' voice.

See also: hip hop... which critics like because it involves black people, but shows again that working class people couldn't be less interested in some socialist utopia, and instead go for hero-worship and high drama.

>>70027266
TEAR OFF THE WINGS OF A BUTTERFLY

>>70027621
>See also: hip hop... which critics like because it involves black people, but shows again that working class people couldn't be less interested in some socialist utopia, and instead go for hero-worship and high drama.

Here's sum Christgau to drive the point home.

>The '80s took rock sexuality and rock sexism over the top. Where Bono and Springsteen epitomized sensitive macho--not primarily sex symbols, they were free to flaunt their heterosexual normality--Prince and Michael Jackson were gender-unspecific and proud. One kinky, the other neuter, they did less than nothing to ease the suspicion that straight, potent black males remained unacceptable fantasy figures in mainstream America. Not that kink could go all the way--it was fashionably unshaven George Michael, not drag queen Boy George, who packed lasting squeal appeal, and it was a Prince song about Nikki jacking off that inspired Mrs. Sen. Gore to found the PMRC. Soon glam-metal studs with hair down to here were taking pseudoblues woman-bashing to ugly new extremes of backlash, and presumably straight, presumably potent rappers were rendering their instinctive radicalism half-useless with street misogyny that made Blackie Lawless sound like a game-show host.

Basically he's saying that the revolutionary/political side of hip-hop was negated by rappers' over-the-top sexism.

>>70027621
>Which, similarly to blockbuster movies, shows that working class people want fun and powerful, inspiring symbols (which Marxist critics read as "escapism" rather than as a very real reflection of peoples' inner life and emotions and values - something actually much 'realer' and closer to the nature of the so-called 'proletariat's sensibilities than punk is)

That ended up happening anyway in communist countries which had a personality cult depicting the leader as some all-wise, all-knowing superman.

>>70027621
I don't totally disagree; the political nature of punk is off-putting to most people who just want to have a good time, rock out, and fantasize about sex, as opposed to complaining about Republicans all the time.

>>70027621
>>70026066
Speaking of which, Nikki Sixx had said that "One time the record label did a demographic survey of Motley Crue fans. They found it was mainly gas pumpers, blue collar types, white trash. Which is cool because so are we."

>>70027621
Pretty interesting analysis. But I think there's a big part of punk that is as fun as metal, and can be in itself a form of escapism, instead of this serious, no-fun-allowed, marxist charged angry mass I'm getting from your post. All the over the top nihilism and anarchy of the early days, stuff like Sex Pistols, The Damned, Ramones, the whole Oi!, Cowpunk, Psychobilly, Ska sub-genres, etc.

>>70028016
>>70027621
Didn't Christgau admit to being a betamax in high school who got his ass kicked by football jocks?

>>70019016
So you're telling me Morbid Angel and Electric Wizard sound identical because they're both metal bands? You're a fucking idiot.

Going by that logic punk is just as limited and conventional.

>>70019128
The Ramones were a punk band and they were almost never political (except for Bonzo Goes To Bitburg).

>>70027621
Regarding black music, Magic Johnson used to say how he loved classic funk growing up, P-Funk, Kool & The Gang, War, etc. He said that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar only listened to jazz because he was pretentious as fuck and thought funk, disco, and rock were for children.

Like, Magic would say he'd come into the Lakers locker room with a Kool & The Gang cassette in his boombox and Kareem would just shoot him dirty looks.

>>70028136
The Ramones sometimes had politics, but usually they were just a party band. Also I think Joey was the most left-leaning guy in the band.

>>70025807
>>70025839
>>70025891
>>70025917
>>70025948

Shout At The Devil is a fun as fuck and 2deep4u nu-male virgins to ever get.

>>70028166
Kareem was involved with student activism in college during the late 60s, he was a lot more political and intellectual than the average black kid who only went to high school and just wanted to play basketball because it was fun and would impress girls.

>>70028016
I always find that really touching. I find metal so much more sympathetic and even moving, whereas I think punks were just cunts.

Back in the day (meaning the golden age of punk in the 70s-80s), punks were friendless aspies who got the shit beaten out of them by meathead AC/DC and Van Halen fans. Kurt Cobain even bitched about how he was the only talented "artist" in school when everyone else were dumb, aggressive rednecks (also he hated Van Halen).

So yeah, it was very true how metalheads were blue collar good ol' boys and punks were proto-Tumblr.

>>70028392
That's weird because Van Halen were usually pretty chill with punk back in the 80's. They played the same bars that bands like X and The Germs did, and Henry Rollins had a story once about how he ran into David Lee Roth at an art show and had a massive fanboy moment. Although I don't think Eddie really cared much for punk.

File: 1475687746904.jpg (67KB, 540x960px) Image search: [Google]

67KB, 540x960px

Who gives half a shit what music critics think?

>>70028330
Well...you had a lot of hip-hop in the early days that was political, such as Public Enemy and Tupac...the critics generally loved those guys, but eventually the shit just devolved into cheesy 50 Cent-style rap about driving a Lamborghini and fucking hot women.

And let's be honest that 50 Cent in the end is probably a lot more fun to listen to than Public Enemy. :^)

>>70028411
>Henry Rollins had a story once about how he ran into David Lee Roth at an art show and had a massive fanboy moment

Black Flag were always way cooler and next-level than most of the other punks though. They like metal and all kinds of weird shit. They were kind of the forerunners to all that metal/punk crossover around the late 80s

>>70028411
This was how Kurt Cobain put it. "There's two kinds of bands. One are a band like The Pixies who have something meaningful to say, and the other are the big, dumb, loud let's-party-until-the-world-ends bands like Van Halen."

Also Eddie Van Halen did admire Nirvana, one time in the early 90s he wanted to jam backstage with Kurt, but he told him to get fucked.

>>70019016

The Botanist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCqFqC2Ew9Q

Sunn O)))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COz1DFfBgcc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCfu4XK3M_0

Wreck & Reference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh7fnaGcOdQ

>>70027621
Doesn't get more of a corn-fed redneck than James Hetfield.

>>70028467
I'd listen to Van Halen over The Pixies any day.

And I'm even a total artfag (not to say I'm a numale or leftist)

>>70024279
During the formative days of punk in the early 70s (Stooges, Velvets, and Dolls era) there was very little in the genre to appeal to women, and also most of those guys were apolitical. Political punk happened more with the UK punk explosion in the second half of the decade, also female punks started cropping up on both sides of the Atlantic. Suddenly you had Siouxse and the Banshees, Wendy O. Williams, Joan Jett, Chrissie Hynde, Nina Hagen, etc.

>>70028166
And until the post-war era jazz was seen as party/club music for those no-good, criminal, alcoholic, unemployed blacks.

The point is, society's opinion of music genres changes as drastically as the genres themselves change.

There's art in all of them.

>>70028580
It really doesn't.

He has literally said he's pretty patriotic, likes country music, and just left San Francisco because he didn't like the way people look down on people with the "wrong" values.

That, and, like, just listen to his singing voice and look at his handlebar mustache.

>>70028718
Jazz up to 1945 was like the rock-and-roll of that time. However, after the war, when big bands declined, a new crop of young jazz musicians began taking jazz away from popular music and into the realm of artsy, snooty Bohemianism. By the '50s, jazz was stuff you listened to while smoking weed and reading Wittgenstein.

I guess prog sort of tried to take the place occupied by jazz in the 50s-60s, unfortunately prog bands were too campy and based around visuals for anyone to take them seriously (jazz of the "Kind of Blue" sort is purely abstract art).

>>70028673
There was a moment in the late 70s and very early 80s when punk was the interesting thing in the air that jibed with where a lot of the art school types were at then. I know a lot of older artists who came of age then. But it was a very brief moment and punk quickly evolved from this often gay, arty, weird thing to a more suburban dickhead kind of thing. All those older artists of course moved on as the whole psychogeography of the times shifted and got into psychedelic stuff etc.

I can understand the punk idea in the little kernel of potential craziness and weirdness it had for a moment, but times evolve and punk proved unable to adapt as a model so its window of artistic vitality was very brief.

>>70028673
This is interesting.

I mean, that metal hasn't ever crossed those gender lines. Is the sound of the music really just too "masculine" to appeal to enough women to make it? I know there are a handful of women in the genre, but besides Wata I can't think of one that has found international renown.

Of course, the masculinity of the genre doesn't take away from the value of the music. In fact, this may be what takes away from the genre's appeal to males. For some men, the music may come off as overly masculine; it may come off as immature, childish male posturing. Like if Trump made music.

But there are plenty of honest metal acts out there, whose masculine music is a real expression, not posturing. Part of the beauty is that the sound is completely male. Just like music by someone like Joanna Newsom couldn't be made by a man, there is some pure, honest feminine energy there.

And all of it is valid and should be given time by a real fan of the artform.

>>70028391
Punks always strike me as people who don't want to take responsibility for anything. Maybe it's because almost every punk I've met is either an addict, homeless, socialist/communist, or all 3.

>>70028788
>But it was a very brief moment and punk quickly evolved from this often gay, arty, weird thing to a more suburban dickhead kind of thing

If you mean how punk quickly turned into stuff like Black Flag and Big Black that were just generic suburban teen angst and lacked the political elements of bands like the Dead Kennedys.

>>70028016
I've noticed that people from the south love hair bands but will also turn around and call people with long hair faggots.

>>70028841
>I mean, that metal hasn't ever crossed those gender lines. Is the sound of the music really just too "masculine" to appeal to enough women to make it?

It did in the 80s. The shit was called Poison and Whitesnake, but of course those bands were focused more on chick-friendly power ballads.

>>70018787
>>70019373
and in the next thread it's a genre for the right

>>70028878
And later still, pop punk which was mainly about suburban teen life (but happy and not angsty the way Big Black were) and was almost a throwback to '50s rock and roll thematically.

>>70019488
most of whom are also white males :^)

>>70019610
>Metal is a working class
>Punk is an "arty", Tumblrcore kind of music.

cunt, have you eve gone to an oi show? it's full of working class people and the banter that goes on there would give tumblrfags pstd

>>70028878
I don't give a fuck about political elements... I am referring more to the formal openness you had with some of the earlier New York bands, or the art connections and strangeness in San Francisco.

I'd actually say that Black Flag were among the more interesting bands as punk turned into hardcore. By interesting I don't mean affecting some bullshit reflective or intellectual or social tone.

>>70028783
Yeah I think the big shift was with bebop, born during the war. There were art focused pioneers before that. One aspect of jazz unique to the genre is that the biggest names and the BEST SELLING artists are the most experimental. So even pre-bebop jazz was about pushing the envelope, and the first 40 or 50 years of jazz are still canonized in today's music culture as post-war jazz (Ellington, Bird).

I've always been fascinated by the concept of "high art" and "low art" that so many people cling to. I'm frustrated by how this arbitrary and, I would argue, imaginary distinction causes pretension for listeners to potential fans of an entire genre, so while some genres enjoy a canonization from our culture (jazz, baroque, classical, and romantic music are all considered unarguable, high, intellectual art), other genres are written off as low art for adolescents (metal, or jazz in 1940).

>>70028896
Hmm. Okay, I figured there is probably stuff I didn't know about. But that's also kind of my point, that there's a handful of women in the genre but they have a astoundingly insignificant presence.

punk was hijacked by faggots who made it into hyper trendy fashionable artsy shit where retards with giant egos and inflated sense of intelligence could whine about political issues so naturally critics would champion that kind of shit because all critics are parasitic faggots

>>70019016
and punk isn't a genre with extreme limitations?

>>70029166
I digress though because the critics glorified punk since its very beginnings in the early 70s, this was certainly before it got hijacked, as you put it.

>>70028673
Yeah the Stooges were always a critical favorite, but Iggy Pop has consistently denied that he's punk and says he doesn't even like the stuff.

Yes the lack of any women in metal is quite remarkable in comparison with how many female punk icons there were.

>>70028575
I assume you are trying to show how wide ranging metal is, but the three bands you've linked to are all, at best, "fringe" metal, and many metal heads would argue that none of them are metal, based on a view of the genre that is, in fact, extremely limited. Genres are defined by the audience, and if most of a genre's audience defines it in a limited way, then it is, in fact, limited.

Personally, I'd agree with you that all three of those acts are example of very wide ranging and experimental but still metal.

>>70028841
>>70029459

If you needed further proof of Christgau's retardation, there's this gem.

Nobody's Daughter [Mercury, 2010]

Lots of people don't like her, and neither do I for that matter. And it's also true that the oil spill is just another thing for her to pretend to care about. Thing is, I could use some new punk fury in my life, and unless you're a fan of Goldman-Sachs or BP Petroleum, so can you. And who better to deliver the goods than a 45 year old woman who knows how to throw her weight around better than half the dweens and zitfaces dominating the scene today? B+

>>70029586
>I could use some new punk fury in my life, and unless you're a fan of Goldman-Sachs or BP Petroleum, so can you

Right, because some "punk fury" is going to fix those problems. Okay.

>>70029459
You keep parroting this but you yourself acknowledge you don't have any particularly deep insight into the scene (assuming you're the same person)? Metal, in terms of being an underground outsider genre, has its fair share of women. They aren't as "visible" in the sense that any act is any more visible than another in a genre of little visibility (hence underground). Nonetheless Original Sin, Nuclear Death, Thorr's Hammer, Dark Castle, Antediluvian, Voidspawn are a shortlist off the top of my head of women in (good) metal, that doesn't reduce them to boring corset gothic dredge.

>>70029586
>>70029623
Especially when it's an album that sounded like a bunch of Avril Lavigne B-sides.

>>70029586
All Hole albums deserve a bomb rating.

>>70028467
Cobain kind of liked Kiss.

>>70019373
Actually punk in its essence was counter-culture much like 4chan. As the young people grow up, their counter cultures start to become a normal part of culture. Counter cultures often then swing the opposite way unless it's a progress widely accepted as positive. Extreme right wing politics was considered the establishment pushed politics up until fairly recently.

>>70018789
This thread should have ended here

>>70027621
The ideology's so thick here you can cut it with a knife, good god.

>>70030064
That ideological morass is what the whole issue of critics on punk vs metal is bogged down in though.

Critics are totally fixed at a certain way of relating to music, that only allows for so much range of movement with regard to response to art. To get at the issue of why, you have to consider what they've gotten themselves wedged into.

>>70019340
This guy looks like he fists his ass using gloves and a jar of petroleum jelly for pleasure.

>>70021956
Post-punk>metal>punk

the only metal band I've ever liked is Led Zeppelin, and the last time I said so in a similar thread I was told they weren't metal.
give me a run-down of what metal actually is. where it came from, who the top 5-most influential in the genre are, and who else you'd recommend. I'm interested in songs, not instrumentals.

>>70019016
Correct. Metal tries to create these Wagnerian epics but always ends up cheesy as fuck.

>>70018745

somewhere along the line it was decided punk was a little less white than metal so naturally it's ok for critics to like

black metal was a million times more punk than the most hardcore d beat punk band of its time

>>70018787
Actually metal is for compensating "so manly" numales

>>70031199
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrzdj6KSRXE

Case in point.

It always bugs me how critics like Bangs and Christgau would act as if they're the guardians of real rock-and-roll and have to bring light to the sheeple. I mean, they were/are a bunch of Greenwich Village hipsters.

It's like, I don't always want to listen to just the New York Dolls and the Stooges all the time, and they need to get off my case.

>>70031839
Basically sums my views up on it/them.

>>70024149
>what is post-rock

>>70028467
>>70028448

True. I'm not a massive fan of Black Flag but I'll admit, without My War there probably wouldn't have been the whole crossover thrash scene of the later decade. Early Cro-Mags definitely sounded closer to Black Flag's later stuff than most other punk from that era.

Plus Black Flag opened for Ozzy Osbourne and that was cool as fuck.

>>70028598

Same, at least Van Halen are fun and don't sound like some big ironic in-joke.

>>70028841
>I know there are a handful of women in the genre, but besides Wata I can't think of one that has found international renown

Nightwish?
Lacuna Coil?
Girlschool?
Shit if we're including nu-metal, how 'bout Evanescence?

Not saying those bands are good by any means, but there's way more international metal bands with girls in them y'know.

>>70030767

Here's your entry-level crash course in metal cunt, thank me later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lVdMbUx1_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86URGgqONvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgASEyey_KQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFREEJiGeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0cDmm7Cz_k

Honest question: have critics become outmoded?

It seems like the younger generation don't care about them now. They seem okay with certain 'light' critics like Fantano, who kind of just point you in the direction of the music without getting into all the discourse and ideology stuff critics have usually engaged in.

But as far as critics and journalistic culture... it seems like people don't respect journalists now... seeing them as annoying and extraneous, and too into annoying clickbait-y sjw narratives. Critics and journalists for their part don't seem to have as many platforms, and have to humiliatingly resort to these new clickbait type gigs.

Younger music fans seem to generally be either indifferent or even hostile to the older well-known critics that former record collectors and music geeks had respected and followed. It's like the internet has reconfigured peoples' brain structures and the old writing can't keep their attention... but also I think critics were very embedded in ideas of the late part of the last century that are now considered outmoded and are pretty fiercely disliked. And critics are basically the physical and vocal embodiment of the whole annoying, smug, lecturing numale sjw, which isn't helping them.

As far as I can tell, nobody younger than 40... 30 at the lowest, cares about them now. I had a period where I felt like getting around to catching up on seeing what many critics had written, and I have to say, I came to the same conclusion I think a lot of younger people do now... that it seems dated somehow, that the experience of the music and of aesthetics doesn't need to be mediated by these nerds, and that the ideas they frame the music with actually kind of get in the way and tend to be really annoying.

>>70034814
Seriously though... do you ever hear millennials speak with interest or reverence about Christgau, Bangs, Marcus, etc? Do they ever read the older, formerly respected publications, or even know about them at all?

That all seemed to end around the time of Web 2.0.

People refer to Pitchfork reviews, but nobody seems to know the writers on a name basis, have any interest in the personalities or their views. And generally people tend to find Pitchfork annoying when it starts to voice any (always irritating) opinion based in irrelevant social-narrative bullshit.

It's as if the internet not only fucked over big music business, but it also fucked over music media, because people can engage more immediately and viscerally with the music on facebook. Hence the whole emphasis again on A E S T H E T I C S. Not on text, but on the immediate aesthetic impact of rarer and rarer music playing on youtube or a stream, or images dispensed on tumble/social media feeds. Aesthetics have replaced writing. Same with memes. Meme images share, catch, and spread easier and more successfully than big walls of text. Writing has to be more in little chunks.

>>70035025
>more immediately and viscerally with the music on *youtube

^meant to write there

>>70019499
most rap fans are white. it's just that black teenagers are the genre's primary tastemakers.

>>70018939
you really think that people don't like metal because they're not intelligent enough?
the passive superiority complex you've developed is insane

>>70019201
If films and books are to be reviewed as pieces of intellectual art music should be too. Anti-intellectualism is a cancer propagated by the lazy

>>70019757
>>70019848
you sound like children

>>70020336
you clearly haven't listened to the modern dance
also:
>ripping from classical/jazz
you mean most most modern music then?
was tim buckley obsolete for ripping jazz riffs?

>>70019728
Metalcore should have the "pop" line, since almost all bands use cliche pop choruses.

>>70025261
Atmospheric black metal isn't anything like heavy metal, but we still call it metal
art punk, dance punk, no wave and post-punk all fall under punk

>>70018745
Music critics tend to not understand pure music aka "music for music's sake" very well - they like finding extra-musical meanings in the music, social connotations, etc. Punk tends to be more obviously connected to sex, politics, and the modern world than metal. 95% of punk is connected to those things in a stupid, base way, but to see that you have to be part of the intellectual elite. It also doesn't help that most metal is just absolutely boring, terrible, and a rehash of previous metal cliches - so to some extent the opinion that metal sucks is justified.

>>70035950
Yoy're thinking abouth the wave of neo-metalcore that plagues the genre, with djent tones, synths and catchy chorus. In the 90's/early 00's it was pretty different.

>>70036077
This.

Bands like Earth Crisis, Strife, Zao, Poison The Well etc. never used clean vocals, synths or pop songwriting. They were closer to sludge metal or thrash in all honesty.

>>70018745
ITT: nu-males trying so hard to defend the genre punk, when original punk rockers would have called them fags and beaten the shit out of them.

Metal is for edgy 14 year olds
Punk is timeless

>>70018745
Punk is objectively better than metal in every sense possible. Also consider that the best metal took it's roots directly from punk.

>>70019016
>he didn't listen to Unquestonable Pressence
What a fucking pleb.

>>70034814
>>70035025
Nice copypaste.

>>70027621
hiphop is to blacks what metal music is to whites, by your own analysis. Music for the poor.

>>70018787
fpbp

File: mikael.jpg (25KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 400x400px

>>70040184
>Punk is objectively better than metal in every sense possible

>>70029204
no. the only requirement for punk is that it has a rebellious or apathetic attitude.

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662KB, 600x622px

>>70040654
>opeth

>>70018745
Is there a more unbearably white genre than metal?

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61KB, 264x376px

>mfw Pitchfork reading nu-males try to talk about metal

You fags think Deafheaven is too brutal lmao

>>70018745
>reading/writing about music
sounds like the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

>>70041027
Punk can be just as if not more brutal than metal. And most of the exceptions in metal have a very clear and distinct punk influence. Almost all of the /good/ first wave black metal bands have a very obvious Amebix/Discharge influence. When it comes to metal, the best stuff is extreme metal, and the best extreme metal are the bands with the raw and fast energy that borrows more from crust, grind, and hardcore than it does from NWOBHM, hard rock, and heavy metal in general. The only exception to this really is doom/drone.

>>70041234
>punk
>ever more brutal than anything put out by the likes of Darkthrone, Mayhem, Bathory, Archgoat, etc.

>>70041234
>best metal is extreme metal
Hahahha

>>70041333
All of those wouldn't exist if not for crust/hardcore punk. And while I agree those are all fantastic bands, with an exception to Darkthrone, yes. Early black metal is more punk than metal in terms of sound, song structure and composition, and everything really except aesthetic and lyrical content.

>>70041357
Other than drone/doom extreme metal is really the only metal worth listening too.

>>70041234
For example, Phil Anselmo was heavily involved with the extreme punk scene. Also, moshing originally came from punk shows.

>>70041234
>Punk can be just as if not more brutal than metal.
No.

>>70041468
>not liking prog and thrash metal

Drone is boring shit

>>70041468
By that logic, punk isn't as good as classic rock because that originally inspired that, which isn't as good as blues since that inspired that.

>>70033448
>2 genres are doing certain thing
>therefore I will dismiss the one that came earlier

Thrash metal heavily came out of punk; songs like Metallica--Battery are pretty much hardcore punk.

>>70041539
prog metal is quite possibly the most boring wanky trash in the music world. And this is coming from someone who worships progressive rock. And thrash has some good stuff but a majority of it is meh at best. The outliers being the more proto-death/black stuff, but thats just my opinion.
>>70041570
Well I never said that punk is better than metal because of that. I'm saying the brutal aspect of most extreme metal stems from punk. I listen to quite a bit of metal actually I'm in no way dismissing it, I'm trying to refute the idea metalheads have that punk and metal are completely separate entities and that metal is a step ahead of punk in terms of aggression, when in reality metal owes more to punk than it does to Sabbath and heavy metal.

>>70040713
So I guess gangsta rap qualifies as punk then.

>>70041703
You can't tell me that punk ever did anything close to what Gorgoroth, Hellhammer, Emperor, and many others did as career.

>>70041703
Depends on what kind of metal. The stereotypical wizards-and-dragons metal mostly came out of 70s AOR which in turn developed from 60s psychedelia, the more aggressive -core kinds of metal came out of punk.

>>70041760
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-8WOYhSHt4
This is literally Hellhammer before Hellhammer or the idea of black metal existed, you clearly haven't dug passed the shitty /mu/ approved punk.

>>70041468
I mean there was a brief period of overlap but Hellhammer and Bathory quickly established first wave vocabulary and I think you're overstating the punk sonics here. Riff articulation in metal even in early post-Venom stuff is far removed from punk riffing, to say nothing of song structuring (I don't think any >punk< were as out there as Slayer's Hell Awaits, for example).

>>70041759
gangsta rap is pretty punk minus all the intellectual anti-capitalist tendencies.

>>70041788
I meant more extreme metal, which is really the only section of metal that could rival in terms of brutality

>>70041823
>Riff articulation in metal even in early post-Venom stuff is far removed from punk riffing, to say nothing of song structuring

As I said, punk by nature has short songs with very simple structures. The complicated structures of metal songs directly came out of 70s AOR. To demonstrate the point, you can listen to Master of Puppets which opens with a punk-like song (Battery) that's extremely fast and has a simple structure to it with no riffing. Then it goes to the title track which is more like classic rock with lots of riffs and a complex prog song structure.

Most metal since the 90s has become predominantly punk-influenced and the 70s AOR influence faded with time, exceptions being European metal which has retained more of the prog-style songs and fantasy lyrics.