Why is anti-capitalist music on the average so much better than

why do you think?

are we experiencing a communist raid? keep on doing the good work guys

>>68316776
Because all capigtalists care about is making money off the gray mass, not making true art for the people.

>>68316732
Because "pro-capitalist" music barely exists.

>>68317576
but all music that makes money is implicitly pro-capitalist :o

>>68317613
so Rage Against The Machine is pro-capitalist?

>>68317576
>"pro-capitalist" music barely exists
It's called top 40 pop.

>>68317613
not really because artists would make money in a socialist soeciety too

>>68317624
I assume he was talking about the message of the lyrics otherwise OPs post is fucking stupid anyways

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Because capitalism forces artists to make commercial music. Music becomes a commodity instead of art.

>>68317576
Not explicitly (except for Oingo Boingo) but plenty of artists are eating from the trashcan of ideology all the time.

>>68317576
hip hop

>This Heat
>anti-capitalist

capitalist bands = Led Zeppelin, KISS
care about the money more than the music

marxist bands = care about the music

>>68317650
>This is capitalism's fault
Even in monarchist systems in the 18th and 17th centuries people were making music that catered to the masses so they could get sponsored by rich families and play concert halls

If anything, the free market let people choose which artist they wanted to invest their money in. It's why small club jazz performers gained traction and why Schoenberg and the avant-garde artists were actually relevant

>>68317683
you mean care more about their agenda

>>68317729
you can't seriously argue against capitalism being anti-creativity

>>68317729
>Even in monarchist systems in the 18th and 17th centuries people were making music that catered to the masses so they could get sponsored by rich families and play concert halls

Is monarchism meant to be a better system than capitalism? What is your point?

>If anything, the free market let people choose which artist they wanted to invest their money in. It's why small club jazz performers gained traction and why Schoenberg and the avant-garde artists were actually relevant

God you're such a faggot fuck of with ur ancap bollocks and kill urself daddy's boy

Who /lovesthisheatbutdoesntgiveafuckabouttheirpolitics/ here??

>>68317765
How is it explicitly against it though?

>>68317769
My point is that catering to people's music tastes and ignoring one's own autonomous artistic impulses is a capitalist phenomenon

It has been the same in other systems as well. I dont know where you pulled me favouring monarchism ovet capitalism in that regard

Also, I'm not an "ancap" so there's no reason to get uppity. Hope that makes you feel better to

>>68317913
Isn't*

Fucking phone typos

>>68316814
>capigtalists

>>>/tumblr/

>>68316732
(pic unrelated)

>>68316732
What are even pro-capitalist bands? Rush has some Ayn Rand shit going on but I don't think I can come up with even one other example.

>>68317729
Before capitalism most musicians were already rich. They didn't need to make money with their music to survive.

Now everyone can be a musician, but to survive from it they have to be very popular. Otherwise they have to make music while having another job to survive. The only other way is to get money from the government, but then most parties want to cut the art budget, because capitalist crisis forces them and because it's "just a hobby" anyway.

>>68316732
because capitalism is retarded

>>68318098
True

But the implication you're making is that immense wealth is the endgame of an artist and musician in general, that a good artist or musician must also be a wealthy one.

Yes, if a musician truly wants to make a comfortable living out of his/her work he/she must commercialize/make their music generally accessible to a certain degree. But I don't see how that would be different in any other system...there are people with generic musical taste in every kind of economic/social system that if you were to try and garner as many fans and followers as possible, you would try to engineer your music to cater to their tastes in some ways.

What an absolute trashcan of a thread. Capitalism is not synonymous with market economies. Capitalism is why in the music industry, you have record labels that are owned and operated by non-musicians who make the decisions regarding who they sign, how they promote, and ultimately own their artists' work even though they don't perform the labor of the artists. Capitalists also decide what is done with profits, which typically do not go to the artists who make the existance of the labels possible.

The argument against capitalism is that the employed workers who create value through labor are ultimately not in control of that value, while the capitalist who contributes nothing is able to sustain itself and profit by the concept of ownership over the worker's labor. The capitalist needs the workers, but the workers have only to gain with the abolition of the capitalist.

>>68317729
>Even in monarchist systems in the 18th and 17th centuries people were making music that catered to the masses so they could get sponsored by rich families and play concert halls

And as a result, it was all shit.

>>68317799
Me

Because capitalism is shit

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>it's a /mu/ discusses economic systems episode

>>68318257
Nowadays you don't need to sign to a label to succeed, but labels provide useful services which is why people choose, on their on free will, to sign rather than stay independent which is also a totally viable option. Maybe the labels don't exist solely to fuck musicians in the ass but to help them access useful things like recording studios, press, and management that would be more difficult if done on their own. The artists DO have the power to control their own music and be successful independently, they just don't want to.

>>68318234
i don't think that implication is being made at all. he was pointing out that musicians who AREN'T doing well have to work regular, 40-hour-a-week jobs. so music (and any other creativity) has to fit around this schedule of survival.

so it's not about being immensely wealthy as much as being able to produce art without a consequence as large as not being able to pay rent, eat, etc. the only real way to avoid this problem altogether is to make ultra-capitalist music, and that kind of defeats the reason why you do it in the first place.

>>68316732
forget capitalism, can somebody tell me what Makeshift Swahili is about? Some faggot here said that it had nothing to do with colonialism but I doubt that.

>>68318405
as a musician who is signed to a label i can confirm this

the alternative - if i wanted it to be as workable - is to employ people to do all that work (most of it is fpretty boring and all of it is time-consuming) , in which case i would spend more money because the same economies of scale would no longer apply

>>68317765
Wake up retard, we live in a capitalist society, and people are free to (and still choose to) be as creative as they want. If capitalism is anti creativity, then how come arts not dead?

>>68317763
no you dipshit, the music

if you oppose your art being exploited for other people's monetary gain then your first priority is still the art.

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>>68317683
Yah Led Zeppelin didnt care about their music at all. Its not like they helped invent an entire genre or anything

>>68319040
yeah the masses really are putting out and appreciating great art right now

>CAPITALISM IS ANTI ART
>CAPITALISTS CANT MAKE ANYTHING CREATIVE
/mu/ is the most uninformed brain washed board on this site

>>68319146
>the masses
Um name one society where the masses produced great art. The reason its great art is because it comes from an exceptionally talented individual. Everyone was making "great art" thered be no such thing as great art. Are you really this retarded?

>>68319184
you're retarded if you don't see the way capitalism destroys culture mate.

>>68316732
because capitalists are too busy raking in a shit ton of cash to bother being perfectionists in a useless attempt to bring "meaning" to something.

law of diminishing returns, folks.

>>68319184
>Everyone was making "great art"
If everyone*

>>68319199
What a non argument. You sound like a christ freak
>youre retarded if you cant see that god is all around us!

>>68319184
he didn't just say create it, he said appreciate it as well. the masses are forcefed crap and have no desire to seek outside of it. which in turn affects the putout of great art

>>68319095
>Led Zeppelin invented a genre
"No"

>>68319199
Way not to refute any of his points...

>>68319211
see >>68319215

I don't think political views change the quality of the music, unless if you were purposely looking out for it.

>>68319215
The masses appreciate whatever you give them, and protip: you dont have to agree with masses or make music for the masses

>>68319222
Black Sabbath and Led Zepplin are literally the 2 most cited bands when dicussing the creation of metal music

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>>68319153
It's simple, "capitalist" musicians are sell outs and there isn't any other way about it. They can make creative, even "good" music, but artistic integrity is out the way often because they abide by the rules of their producers. They fit in to their parameters and do not diverge from the trend. That is why they are generally lyrically stale compared to those who defy producers/are independent.

But sometimes popular artists who are slaves to producers do produce great music with interesting lyrics if they are needed at all of course.

>>68319215
In what society did the masses appreciate art because it was great and not because it was shoved down their throats. The masses have never been interested in art besides whats popular

>>68319254
good thing capitalism breeds and perpetuates a mindless society. that definitely won't impact the output of great art in anyway.

>>68319322
what? who is mindless? everyone except you i suppose

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Capitalism funds these "rebels".

In a communistic utopia these thinkers, artists, and intelligentsia are driven into communal farms and they shoot themselves in the back of the head after they become counter-revolutionary.

>>68319322
>capitalism breeds and perpetuates a mindless society.
Again, how is our society any more mindless than non capitalists society? Let me guess, you think the soviet union was full of well educated and liberated individuals?

>>68316732
because you dont etc

>>68319307
Any art thats designed to sell isnt going to be true art, regardless of what type of society you live in. My point is that a capitalist society doesnt repress art or expression at all, it just doesnt make very much momey, which I think is true for any society.

Art has never been profitable unless you were the absolute best of the best and were getting comssioned by kings and rich folk

One good thing about capitalism is the counter movements it caused. In oppressive regimes there's most of the time a period of revolt and relative freedom, lots of great music and film is made during these periods. For instance Brazil in the seventies, Europe and Japan in the sixties. Great Britain in the eighties. Though it's more a result of authoritarianism than capitalism itself, capitalism is inherently authoritarian.

>>68319461
>a system based around FREE UNREGULATED markets is inherently authoritarian
Kek

Would everyone shut the fuck up and discuss how Camberwell Now is obviously superior to This Heat?

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What does this "capitalism" boogeyman even mean to you fucking stupid commies?

>>68319558
>it umm makes brain dead masses and uh masses dont like art so uhh it feeds to the masses?

>>68319342
>what? who is mindless? everyone except you i suppose
those who have little to no time to explore other outlets of information besides their television programs and what's being screamed at them through the radio on their way to work.

>>68319558
Economic system in which the means of production are privately owned.

>>68319496
if you don't see how capitalism inherently creates an authoritarian society you're a dumbass. "FREE MARKETS" doesn't fucking define capitalism you stupid fucking idiot fuck you're so god damn stupid fuck you fuck you fuck you

>>68319496
>The freer the market the freer the people
*tips child sex slave*

>>68319646
Yah man, im sure glad were not one of those SHEEP. Me and you got the right info, we wont be slaves like mommy and daddy!

>>68319683
>"FREE MARKETS" doesn't fucking define capitalism
Yes it does

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>>68319657
very snarky
what flag to you run on /leftypol/, familam?
>>68319683
>>68319690
>these are the intellectual giants our socialized education system produces

>>68317683
Autism

>>68318041
Frank Zappa has a quote espousing capitalism.

>>68319683
>if you don't see how capitalism inherently creates an authoritarian society you're a dumbass
Ok, im a dumbass. Now please explain how capitalism is "inherently authoritarian"

>>68319722
>>68319496
>thinking libertarianism = capitalism
you're a fucking moron. and even if you meant the former you're still a fucking idiot, you don't get ruled by the government you get ruled by the corporations you stupid fuck. unless you're one of them in which case fuck you all the more.

>>68319762
no

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>>68319723
>>68319558

>>68316732
because in a capitalist society where the bourgeois support fields that will ultimately increase their capital while simultaneously belittling fields they find of less value in order to shape the trajectory of the society the majority of artists/art are thrown into that lesser category. it really is just because there's much more art that falls outside of "pro-capitalist"

>>68319768
Libretarianism is a politcal philosophy, not an economic one. So explain what capitalism is and how it can exist without free markets

>>68319768
I get the feeling you're underage. It's ok buddy, your edgy Marxist phase will be over in a couple years.

>>68316732
Because lazy commies have all the free time in the world to string together complex ideas because they are unemployable, talentless hacks who do nothing productive but musically shitpost until ''''''''''''genius'''''''''''' bubbles to the surface
For every leftist masterpiece there's ten trillion horrible punk bands

>>68319683
a system with naturally emergent hierarchy is not the same as an authoritarian system

>>68319801
what economic system is currently being used in the US

>>68319785
>characeristics central to capitalism include....voluntary exchange, competitive markets
>investment determined by the resource owners and the free market
whos point are you proving here?

>>68319833
Capitalism mixed with some keynesian governmental efforts

>>68319833
welfare capitalism

>>68319693
>Yah man, im sure glad were not one of those SHEEP. Me and you got the right info, we wont be slaves like mommy and daddy!
nah we'll definitely end up slaves - there's no alternative that's what's bred in this society. being mindful of it is of little use and honestly works against the individual. but that's definitely not related to capitalism

>>68319839
>Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production
wikipedia is literally leftypol amirite xD

>>68319801
>and how it can exist without free markets
it's existing right now without free markets.

>>68319860
I don't think you're arguing with me, cause it aint make sense what you're saying.

>>68318194
damn...

what kind of capitalism is "grab em by da pussy"?

>>68319801
are you genuinely retarded? all libertarians are capitalists but not all capitalists are libertarians. free unregulated markets are the cornerstone of libertarianism, you clearly have zero idea of what capitalism entails try reading instead of trying to appear smart in the guise of asking a question as your argument you retarded cunt.
>>68319808
>when you grow up and see how the world works you'll be a retarded asshole too
how's it going?

>>68319646
I really hate edgy leftists for this very reason. They just automatically assume people are stupid and are willing to mindlessly believe everything the media tells them. I like to believe people are smarter than that.

>>68319920
>I like to believe people are smarter than that.
have you seen the two choices for president in the united states?

>>68319920
then explain the current state of the world LMAO

>>68319911
>what kind of capitalism is "grab em by da pussy"?
the kind that gets you un-endorsed by ur boys bc they're just betas that are jealous of your alpha-ness

i liked it better when we were discussing music

>>68319947
wow its literally armageddon, worst its ever been honestly XD LMAO

>>68319969
Well yeah we are destroying the world in favor of profit so ya it kinda is pretty bad

>>68319946
Yeah, its crazy. I watch tv and hate them at the same time. I must be some sort of genius or something to be able to resist brainwashing like this.

>>68319985
we are? things are surprisingly normal for the world being destroyed. wwii was closer to armageddon than anything we're experiencing now, and that was literally 70 years ago.

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>>68319998
communism isnt even good in theory
the supposition that any system of government can intelligently, and fairly disburse goods, work, and wealth without huge waste, bureaucracy, and corruption is asinine.

it's a lot easier to peddle fear now
every day there are 5 more things to worry about, if you're more stressed now than ten years ago try using the internet the amount you were ten years ago, i guarantee you will see a result

>>68320074
Well communism is stateless so you don't even seem to know what communism is

>>68318439
Something to do with languages

>>68320008
>Yeah, its crazy. I watch tv and hate them at the same time. I must be some sort of genius or something to be able to resist brainwashing like this.
nice dude. so do you understand why they're the nominations or?

>>68320109
If communism is stateless, by what means does it ensure the prevention of emergence of private interests?

>>68316732
Why is pro-capitalist music so shit?

>pro-capitalist
I think only country music does that and country music fucking sucks, there you go.
By the way, nazis do better music than communists and capitalists.

>>68320109
communism isn't stateless. unless your one of the anarcho-(insert buzzword here)

>>68320158
he's an anarcho-syndicalist who wants to pretend like we're stupid for not knowing his pronouns(xir, ze, comrade)

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>>68320163
>nazis do better music than communists and capitalists.
True

>>68320139
Yeah, because washington is corrupt (Hillary) and people are fed up with it (Trump). At least it's a fucking democracy, and everything isn't decided in favor of the "common good" or some other bullshit ideal.

>>68320235
>At least it's a fucking democracy,
w e w

>>68320270
corrupt democracy > no democracy
shitty choices > no choices
What are you trying to argue here?

>>68320235
yea fuck the common good who gives a fuck about the common good oh sorry "common good" lol quotation marks because fuck the common good

>>68320074
>fairly disburse goods, work, and wealth without huge waste, bureaucracy, and corruption"

BRAVO CAPITALISM!

I know you said any system is asinine, but we may as well give another a try before packing it in for the eternal winter

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>>68320218

>>68320331
It has no inherent meaning. One size doesn't fit all, so how can such a thing realistically exist? Who defines what the common good is apart from those in power?

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>>68320346
I think our disagreement is probably on the word "fairly"

t. oinker

>>68320394
maybe try getting your info (reading) about communism from sources other than those trying to discredit it.

>>68320346
free market capitalism takes those decisions out of the hands of bureaucratic governments, though

It's well proven that private corporations are more efficient, and cheaper than government organizations.

>>68320292
that the caucus and nomination processes are undemocratic - as well as the actual way the president is elected via the electorate college

>>68319268
and incorrectly so
your point, dumbass?

>>68320442
Takes those hands out of the government and gives it to corporations.

>Corporations are more efficient

Hahahaha. Corporations care about profits, damn everything else. They constantly go against 'efficiency', especially to retain monopolies.. And why the fuck is efficiency even an ideal?

But yeah nah, just free market everything, put a value on everything. This is a healthy way of living.

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> mfw seeing the posts in this thread

>>68320622
God damn right. Fucking prole bourgie apologists all over the place, like everywhere on the internet. Need some god damn class consciousness round these parts

>>68316732
No one feels the need to make pro capitalist music because we already live in a capitalist society you fucking mong, and isn't it funny that America one of the most capitalist places in the world has been a major cultural exporter of its music while I can't name a single major artist I listen to who is from an outspokenly socialist country. If you ever took a basic econ class you would know that capitalism is very good at creating and filling niches its why even if the music is good or itleast unique and band can find a fanbase. I'm sure you aren't even talking about real socialism just some giant welfare state with benefits for everyone, but if you aren't a total retard, then you would know end game socialism is about the government allocating resources for maximum efficiency and equity, but in a system where the government tries to control markets it takes power away from both the consumers and the producers which would mean even if a band could find a niche to fill if they didn't have the approval of a board of economic advisors they would more likely be put to work in a salt mine or a grain processing plant since that would be the most efficient way of creating equity. The fact is even if you hate the large "greedy" corporations and the monetary system that fuels capitalism it is the system that gives you the most freedom which inherently is better for music.

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>>68320581
The only monopolies/oligopolies that exist in my country(US) are due to government meddling in the free market, or IP law, which I've never seen a Marxist object to.

This hatred for the wealthy they've managed to instill in you isn't healthy either. It's plain and simple envy. And based on the fact that you have enough wealth to afford an internet connection, housing, and a computer I doubt you're seriously living in want.

>>68320709
>oink oink wheeeeow wheeeeeow oink oink
ok

Why do leftist always advocate civil disarmament?

It feels like a prescription from the elites.

>>68320622
keep fighting the good fight comrade!

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>>68320854
meant to have this pic attached

>>68320709
You started off well and then you steered into pure capitalist ideology. Read some Adorno, you 'freedom loving' simpleton.

I haven't gone through this whole thread, but I'm glad to see how many anons are heavily critical of capitalism. I definitely believe it affects both creation and appreciation of art. I can tell just when I discuss music or film with friends and acquaintances, let alone when looking at our bizarre mass media.

>>68320854
>>68320867
who needs guns? you little dick faggit

>>68320880
his post was great, and Adorno was a Holohoax believer so not sure why you are advocating listening to nutcases

>>68320948
>>>/classical/

>>68320734
Mate, a common misconception is that markets and government are against each other. They're not; they're in cahoots, always have been. I'm not a revolutionary Marxist, but if you ever read the Communist Manifesto, you'll realise that Marxism and private property are incompatible. That is to say, there are no monopolies, there is only democratic ownership of the means of production.

Why am I even bothering? I don't even agree with revolutionary politics.

>>68320975
I'm already there recc'ing Russian Romanticism to fucking plebs like you

>>68319040
>free to be as creative as they want
yeah, totes. everyone is this free, sure

>>68320888
I'm glad you're critical too, anon. Capitalism poisons everything. Can't even talk to my god damn family without them monetising our relationship. Fucking kill me

>>68320888
But the mass media is openly socialist

>>68319040
Yeah, because the profit value doesn't completely dominate artistic direction.

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>pro-capitalist fascists on /mu/

Are you people retarded? without captilasim science and art would have never evolved they way they did in the past 500 years. All of us who live in the 1st world countries need to appreciate capitalism even though it feels kinda dirty.

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>>68319558
>systematic
>institutional
>intersectional

I can answer this question any way I want to and I incorporate these words, leftists will be able to discern what I've saying.

>>68321099
The fact that there is a 'first world' and a 'third world' is due to capitalism exploiting people, you uneducated idiot. Read up on the labour theory of value. Holy fuck, I'm surrounded by 12 year olds.

There's no point of scientific advancements if they help 1% of the world's population, you fucking cunt.

PRAISE ELON! THIS IS NATURAL! AND NATURAL=MORAL!

>>68320854

The far-left doesn't. Well, there are a few anarcho-pacifists but most of us don't but much like we laugh at people who fall for the commodity fetish we laugh at people who fetishize their guns.

>>68321099
Without Capitalism, the slavery and genocide this country's built on wouldn't have happened either.

What communism is on theory
>all should live equally

What it is on practice
>all should live equally shitty

>>68321212

History is already set, no use bickering over it.

>>68321204
Exactly. I don't want ya guns, you dumb red necks. I am disturbed by your retarded fetishism which is only a displacement of your actual problems. But yeah, your guns will fix everything and overthrow the government.

They're a distraction, you fucking suckers, and you fell for it.

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>>68321204
>we laugh at people who fetishize their guns
keep pandering to the pearl clutchers, comrade
Moms Demand Action doesn't support socialism.
>>68321299
>I don't want ya guns
I understand, but the candidate you inevitably vote for does.

>>68321275
Yeah, let's never study history. You're a real intellectual.

>>68321212
that doesn't make any sense. how would communism prevent a cultural faith that black people are animals, and not really people?
>genocide
the vast majority of native americans died to old world diseases, dummy. how would communism have prevented disease prior to modern medicine

>>68321212
what the fuck there was slavery way before capitalism. If anything capitalism pushed the idea of civil rights and made the world less violent.

>>68321183
that's true but you can't ignore the values capitalism brought to our society.

I'm no proffessor but I think everyone here just seems to think capitalism is evil. Capitalism is comlicated as fuck you can't just outright call it evil.

>>68316732
on a whole left winged music is superior
on a whole right winged politics is superior

>>68321404
>right winged politics is superior

>>68321319
>the candidate you inevitably vote for does

I'm not even American, so I'm not taking any guns away. I just think you Americans are completely blinded by a false sense of 'freedom'. You allow yourselves to get fucked continuously by hospital bills, by college bills, but you still keep sucking the system's cock. You blame all the little poor people: they're immoral, they're lazy. There's nothing wrong with the system, you just need more free market to free you, to save you. Holy fucking market. The magical free market will save us all. I look forward to that utopia. Keep waving dat flag and keep sucking Uncle Sam's cock.

>>68321183
Dude youre not wrong, but leftists like you are why the left has such a bad reputation. The left is plauged with superiority complex and treats anyone who disagrees with them like children. You act like youve figured everything out and everyone else is a drooling bufoon. Youd convince a lot more people if you werent so immature and rude

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>>68321457
>this European man will berate American's and our economic system whilst the only reason his tiny country gets to play pretend-socialism is because he falls under the umbrella of protection of the ridiculously expensive US military we have to pay for
you know many of us oppose the war machine, and when we stop subsidizing your defense you'll find democratic socialism a lot less tenable
that or you'll be a Russian state

>>68321748
This just gets better. Because not only have you whipped out the classic lie, 'the only reason you have any social security is because 'Murica' as a way of deflecting your nation's inherent issues, you also assumed that I'm European. Here's a place for you, friend: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitAmericansSay/

I'm an Aussie, you Seppo cunt.

>>68322045
>go2reddit
Is not an argument. Im not him and I have no stake in this coversation, but your reply in incredibly useless and unconvincing

>>68322150
>in incredibly useless and unconvincing
is*

>>68322150
I linked you to a specific subreddit where people constantly take the piss out of American who say "Hurr Yuropoors can only afford universal because we protect them from deadly Russia"

First of all, there's no way that Russia could take on the EU. Second, you American cunts act as if you have bases there out of pure benevolence. Thirdly, even if you believe you're some glorious saviour of Europe, and you think you're sacrificing your own national welfare to help them, you're literally a nation of cucks.

And to that I say: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

EUROPE, STOP STEALING MUH FREE HEALTHCARE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

God damn America's a shithole.

>>68322374
>God damn America's a shithole
Nah its actually pretty nice if youve ever been here

>>68318041
Even then, they dropped the Rand stuff not long after 2112.
I recall Peart saying he's ashamed of that phase.

Frank Zappa was extremely conservative/capitalist.

>>68322448
Oh I have no doubt, and I know a few Americans whom I love very much, but the country as a whole is barely first world in terms of social services. My country aint much better these days.But to use this pretext of "Oh, we're shit because we're protecting Europe" is a bullshit excuse you're only fighting your own interests as workers by perpetuating this.

>>68317623
Technically. They sold out fucking hard.

Kinda the reason I appreciate Godspeed because they have been so close to the mainstream so many times but never betrayed their principles unless they had to.