Reminder that this episode was both funnier and had better character

>>30855160
Party of one is objectively better than that sorry excuse of a episode.

>>30855178
It's not. Party of One has a poorly written pinkie pie instantly going mad at the slightest hint that her friends didn't want parties because an equally poorly written spike told her a lie. Then the episode ruins itself even more by not having her friends actually want to avoid parties, suggesting that you should always spend time with your friends regardless of how often you did so. There was next to no interesting character interactions in that episode.

Hard to say anything had the CMC try to give romance advice to big mac and while they initially gave sound advice, failed to do so after meeting competition. They tried to do the reasonable thing first, but failed and did something while wrong, was understandably wrong from people who are too young to understand romance. The moral was also on point, suggesting that romance isn't like fairy tales and that you are dealing with real people. Not to mention all of the fun interactions the CMC had with each other and big mac as well as sweetie belles reaction to feather bangs.

In short, Hard to Say anything is a far better episode.

>>30855160
This is one of my favorite episodes this season.

>>30855206
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOrh4DKKBAQ

>>30855160

The best night Ever, A dog and a Pony show, and the sonic rain boom.

>>30855250
>resorting to regurgitating some review instead of arguing it your self
At least put the video in your own words.

>>30855256

if you liked Sonic rainboom, you're just a dashfag and there's no helping you.

>>30855258
I'm guessing that you were too lazy to a damn 8 minute video.

>>30855265
prove it.

>>30855160
>Reminder that this episode was both funnier and had better character interactions than any episode in season 1 did.

You're seriously trying to compare the over the top reactions and hollow character moments with little buildup to Look Before You Sleep, which actually showed three different conflicting personalities and how they bounced off each other to create comedy in their own unique way?

Seriously, what would you say Sugar Belle's actual personality was in this? How would you say that it provided the fuel for the jokes between Big Mac and Feather Bang? How would you say it bounced off each other to keep the ball rolling?

>>30855256
>Best Night Ever
The mane 6 get shat on and go mad ruining the night for everyone, except not really because deus ex machina. The episode didn't hint at all that celestia wanted some chaos. There weren't really any interesting character interactions in this episode either as the mane 6 spent the night doing their own thing.

>A dog and pony show
>rarara episode
>good
>pick one
In all seriousness though, this episode has a nice idea in theory; that people don't have to be physically strong or masculine to take care of themselves, but the execution is botched by having rarara being so obnoxious that her kidnappers can't stand her, there are surely better ways to show that moral than the way they did).

>sonic rainboom
Rarara once again ruins everything. This episode isn't bad per say, but it is just empty. Sure we had the "yay" gag, but everything else just fell flat, the plot is predictable and nothing else interesting happens along the journey to make up for it. While Hard to Say anything was predictable to an extent, it at least kept the ride interesting through writing the CMC/Big Mac really well.

>>30855160
I indeed can't. Even if this wasn't just a cheap bait, your shit taste in humor on a level of the target audience is purely subjective, and I can't say "no you don't actually think that" to prove you wrong. But I'm happy that you're enjoying the new show.

>>30855285
Looking before you sleep wrote apple jack and rarara as worse children than the CMC were in their good seasons (season 3 and onwards), despite both being adults. The dialog in this episode is awful, having Rarara/AJ resort to child like bickering is so pathetic for who are supposed to be the most mature of the mane 6. Twilight was also written as a complete moron, not being able to see the very obvious conflict infront of her (this is a common problem in season 1).

>Seriously, what would you say Sugar Belle's actual personality was in this? How would you say that it provided the fuel for the jokes between Big Mac and Feather Bang? How would you say it bounced off each other to keep the ball rolling?
Sugar Belle wasn't what made the episode good, it was the CMC/Big mac trying to win her over. Can you honestly say lines like
>Quick act like apples!
>What how?
or
>That's our metaphorical sunset

Are worse than some of the """"gems""" in season 1 like:

>Applejack: Does so.
>Rarity: Does not.
>Applejack: Does so.
>Rarity: Does not.
>Applejack: Does so.
>Rarity: Does not.

or

>Well, it's not okay. There's a giant tree branch in the middle of my bedroom, and the book doesn't say anything about having a giant tree branch at your slumber party. Or at least I haven't found that entry yet

Yes, I had to look up lines for look before you sleep because none of them were memorable.

You're really committed to the act, and I appreciate that.

>>30855314
>>Quick act like apples!
>>What how?
>or
>>That's our metaphorical sunset
None of those are funny ,nor memorable, but if you think so, good for you.

>>Well, it's not okay. There's a giant tree branch in the middle of my bedroom, and the book doesn't say anything about having a giant tree branch at your slumber party. Or at least I haven't found that entry yet
Is funny because all Twilight had going for her is her book smarts. Since she never had a sleep over so she had to resort to a book for information.

Another, why the fuck do you keep bring up CMC as if they were ever good? Most of their episode are either average, boring, or forgettable, with only a few gems, for 7 seasons.

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>>30855160

>>30855350
>Is funny because all Twilight had going for her is her book smarts. Since she never had a sleep over so she had to resort to a book for information.

It's not, its flanderization in the eighth episode of the show. Does twilight really need a book to tell her a tree falling into her house is not intended sleep over practice?

>Another, why the fuck do you keep bring up CMC as if they were ever good? Most of their episode are either average, boring, or forgettable, with only a few gems, for 7 seasons.

Because they are actually written well throughout the show. If you are a faustdrone, you might hate them regardless because of how bad they were in season 1 and can't bare the idea that they improved later on.

>>30855314
>The dialog in this episode is awful, having Rarara/AJ resort to child like bickering is so pathetic for who are supposed to be the most mature of the mane 6.

Bullshit, they mostly just did really muted petty stuff to each other that was deliberately understated to still be view able as just 'joking around' by someone as oblivious as Twilight. For gods sake their worst stuff was 'a dress' and 'dirty'. Also, Rarity was always petty and immature.

>Twilight was also written as a complete moron,

Or she just thought it was normal because she never had a sleepover.

Maybe.

>Are worse than some of the """"gems""" in season 1 like:

Yes because the voice acting for the back and forth was way better than the reactions in that episode.

>Yes, I had to look up lines for look before you sleep

I literally did not believe you so I looked it up and sure enough, that "Does not does so" line does not appear in the quotes.

It did have-

Applejack: Is it... a six-legged pony with a purple polka-dotted mane and shootin' stars comin' out of his eyes?
Rarity: Who flies through the air all over the world to hide magic, sparkly eggs?
Twilight Sparkle: That's it!
Applejack and Rarity: It is?
Twilight Sparkle: No.

Which was memorable.

>Sugar Belle wasn't what made the episode good,

No, she's why it was bad. Because of her lack of personality and lack of real emotion to the scene, we're only invested in one side of any of this and she's providing nothing but a blank slate to do 'wacky' routines' at. Nothing character wise because she has none, just a blank space to introduce some jokes.

Meanwhile, Twilight being oblivious and interested made exchanges like-

Rarity: Then you place one marshmallow on the top of the chocolate and be sure it's centered -- that's critical -- and then carefully put another perfectly square graham cracker on the top. And done. Ta-da!
Twilight Sparkle: Ooo!
Applejack: Nah, ya just eat 'em.

-work because they all had something to add.

>>30855375
>Does twilight really need a book to tell her a tree falling into her house is not intended sleep over practice?

Yeah, that does seem odd. If only there was some sort of context, like a line of some kind to maybe make it seem like that was her trying to make someone feel better or make some kind of joke in order to lighten the mood. If only the writers had maybe done it like

Applejack: I'm mighty sorry, Twilight.
Twilight Sparkle: It's... Well, it's not okay. There's a giant tree branch in the middle of my bedroom, and the book doesn't say anything about having a giant tree branch at your slumber party. Or at least I haven't found that entry yet. Ooh... ah!

You know, Applejack's feeling bad, Twilight doesn't want her to feel bad so she makes a silly joke, something like that, you know?

If only.

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>actual discussion resulted from a taunt
interdasting

>>30855375
>It's not, its flanderization in the eighth episode of the show.
So you didn't start with S1, and you watch after the other seasons didn't you. It wasn't "flanderization" because all Twilight had was book smarts, she did everything based off of books, and when face with a chance to do something that she has a book on, of course she is going to refer to the book.

>Because they are actually written well throughout the show.
Being well written doesn't invalidate the fact that most of their episodes are average, boring, or forgettable, but keep going waifufag

>>30855391
>Bullshit, they mostly just did really muted petty stuff to each other that was deliberately understated to still be view able as just 'joking around' by someone as oblivious as Twilight. For gods sake their worst stuff was 'a dress' and 'dirty'. Also, Rarity was always petty and immature

See:

>does not
>does so
>does not
>does so
>does not times infinity
>does so times infinity plus 1

>Or she just thought it was normal because she never had a sleepover.

She thought the book would answer why a tree flew through her house. You can't expect me to believe that is reasonable characterization.

>I literally did not believe you so I looked it up and sure enough, that "Does not does so" line does not appear in the quotes.

Look in the transcript, those lines are both there. That other line is randumb humor, just think of the most absurd idea only for twilight to be "lol nope."

>No, she's why it was bad.

Because most of the jokes in that episode weren't directed towards Sugar Belle, they were among the CMC+Big Mac group, and the jokes play off their characters well. Just picking a random line from MLP wiki:

Big McIntosh: She'll never pick me.
Apple Bloom: Sure she will, 'cause we're gonna help you.
Big McIntosh: No love potions!
Cutie Mark Crusaders: [laugh]

That joke works because it plays to the strengths of all the characters involved, each of the CMCs tendancies to do something absurd and big macs more stoic/straight man nature to assume that the CMC would do something like that again.

The only jokes with Sugar Belle were meant to highlight the absurdity of big mac going through fairy tale rituals and act as a straight man to his nonsense, which are actually funny as it subverts the fairy tale cliches quite well. Sugar Belle lacking character is made up for how well this episode subverts generic fairy tale tropes. Before you sleep plays into tropes.

>Twilight Exchange

I don't see how twilight contributes at all to that joke, she is just there.

>>30855431
Exactly, her character was book smart, but that wasn't the only facet of her character. Look Before You Sleep would make you think other wise, as the writers ramped that one trait to such a serious extent just to make the boring plot work.

>>30855431
>Being well written doesn't invalidate the fact that most of their episodes are average, boring, or forgettable, but keep going waifufag
Since you are a faustdrone, you probably won't consider any episode post season 2 memorable, but I will humor you.

What about: Sleepless in Ponyville, Sisterhoove Social, Flight to the Finish, For Whom the sweetie belle toils, gloom and bloom, brotherhoove social, crusades of the lost marks, on your mark, fault of our cutie marks, parental glidance, forever filly, hard to say anything, and campfire tales. Yes, all of their season 7 episodes so far have been great.

>>30855462
>See:

The literally most barebones and basic back and forth? Yeah, can't imagine how Twilight didn't see that was a problem when they went all the way up to infinity!

>She thought the book would answer why a tree flew through her house. You can't expect me to believe that is reasonable characterization.

Okay I know you were kinda hoping nobody would point it out but >>30855417, it happened, gotta let it go and stop digging yourself deeper.

>That other line is randumb humor, just think of the most absurd idea only for twilight to be "lol nope."

As opposed to the sensibility of
>Quick act like apples!
>What how?
Which had such a perfect setup and did not in fact come out of nowhere, unlike, I dunno, them deliberately making crazy stuff up because that's what they set up?

Come on.

>That joke works because it plays to the strengths of all the characters involved,

That's not a joke, it's a reference. It's literally just calling back to a previous action and then laughing at it. If we hadn't had the previous episode it would be completely meaningless, and actually highlights what's wrong here. Instead of bouncing off each other and each giving their own callback, it was him saying something and them giving a non-verbal response that, without knowledge of the potion episode, is meaningless. None of that is true for Look Before You Sleep.

>act as a straight man to his nonsense,

The straight man still has to give something to the joke, otherwise it's literally a brick wall.

>she is just there.
Perfect example! Twilight isn't just there, she's looking on in wonder at what Rarity is doing because it's her first sleepover, and AJ's response is to show her up which gets a reaction from both Rarity, offense, and Twilight, interest. If it had been anyone else, the joke falls flat, because why would anyone be interested in a smore that much?

Meanwhile with Sugar Belle... she doesn't like being yelled at?

>>30855476
>but that wasn't the only facet of her character.
Did you not watch the S1 opener? Did you not see all of the book that continued to surround her even when she moved to ponyville? Did you never once notice has Twilight always had a book for whatever situation she was in? She pulled all of her knowledge from books, and when a tree crashed through her house house during a sleep over, something she never had, why wouldn't she refer to a book on sleepovers when she panicked?


>Since you are a faustdrone, you probably won't consider any episode post season 2 memorable, but I will humor you.
cute insult waifufag, but wrong

>Average
>Sleepless in Ponyville
>Sisterhoove Social
>on your mark,
>campfire tales.
>For Whom the sweetie belle toils
>parental glidance

>Boring
> Flight to the Finish
>For Whom the sweetie belle toils
>gloom and bloom
>on your mark
>fault of our cutie marks
>hard to say anything
>Forever Filly

>Fogettable
>brotherhoove social

>Gem
> crusades of the lost marks

Where you supposed to prove anything, even when you skip so many episodes where the CMC are present?

>>30855550
Why did you double up so many of those? Also Brotherhooves Social was many things, but forgettable wasn't one of them. Just mention Orchard Blossom or Big Mac in drag and people know what you mean instantly. That's the definition of not forgettable.

Now Family Appreciation Day, that was forgettable.

>>30855508
>>30855417
Until you realize that Twilight continues to go on with the "joke" and does this in two separate lines after "trying to make AJ feel better." You'd think she'd just use her magic to solve the conflict instantly instead, but she doesn't (because bad writing).

>Twilight Sparkle: Baking... BFFs... Brothers... There's nothing in here about branches.
Twilight Sparkle: Well, they do have a section about backyard slumber parties. Is that what we're doing right now? Does this count as camping?

Its pretty clear that she wasn't just joking.

>The literally most barebones and basic back and forth? Yeah, can't imagine how Twilight didn't see that was a problem when they went all the way up to infinity!

You are missing the point, that was meant to showcase how badly written rarara and AJ were.

>As opposed to the sensibility of

They were in a crate of apples and were trying to hide just before being revealed, the line was clearly meant as an act of desperation so it makes sense that the joke isn't rational per say, but it is based on reasonable context. That is far more set up than "six legged polka dot pony" which literally comes out of no where and is unrelated to anything that happened.

>That's not a joke, it's a reference.

References can still be humorous if done well, and its clearly done well here for the reasons I described earlier (and you failed to address) plus with how blunt big mac is when he says it. Look Before you Sleep in contrast, had less mature characters fighting with each other and that is supposed to be funny "oh AJ ate rararas smoores, so funny..." or "oh AJ and rarara are bickering like children, so funny...."

cont.

>>30855576
>Why did you double up so many of those? Also Brotherhooves Social was many things, but forgettable wasn't one of them.
It was forgettable because outside of Mac in drag, no one cares for it, that by itself makes it forgettable.

>>30855508
>The straight man still has to give something to the joke, otherwise it's literally a brick wall.
Do you not remember Sugar Belles reactions to big mac trying to kiss her? She freaked out, a great subversion to the "kiss the princess awake" trope.If this episode was in season one you would have found it god tiered for being like best night ever.

>Perfect example! Twilight isn't just there, she's looking on in wonder at what Rarity is doing because it's her first sleepover, and AJ's response is to show her up which gets a reaction from both Rarity, offense, and Twilight, interest. If it had been anyone else, the joke falls flat, because why would anyone be interested in a smore that much?

Twilight's interest in contrast adds nothing to the joke. She was just there. You could replace twilight with apple bloom or pinkie pie and the joke wouldn't be affected.

>>30855550
I feel like you are shit posting faustdrone. I don't see how you are indifferent/dislike so many CMC episodes, yet like crusades of the lost mark, the CMC episode that requires you to be invested in the CMC to enjoy.

>Did you not watch the S1 opener? Did you not see all of the book that continued to surround her even when she moved to ponyville? Did you never once notice has Twilight always had a book for whatever situation she was in? She pulled all of her knowledge from books, and when a tree crashed through her house house during a sleep over, something she never had, why wouldn't she refer to a book on sleepovers when she panicked?

Because there is more to Twilight's character than being book smart, even in season 1. She learned this in the pilot episode of the show, she had to regress pretty far (despite it being episode eight) for her to think that reading a book is the right response to a tree falling into her house (especially when she is a strong magic user who could just lift everything out).

>>30855583
>Its pretty clear that she wasn't just joking.

You know what this other guy keeps cutting in, I'll let him handle that.

>You are missing the point, that was meant to showcase how badly written rarara and AJ were.

How? It was a basic thing while both were doing something physical, a way to keep up the conflict without getting into anything spiteful about it. It was deliberately underplayed for this reason-

Applejack: Does so infinity. Hah.
Rarity: Does not infinity plus one. Heh. What say we go our separate ways before one of us says something she will regret?
Applejack: I reckon y'all are gonna say something you'll regret first.
Rarity: On the contrary, I believe it shall most certainly be you who says something you will regret first.
Applejack: I'm not sayin' anythin'.
Rarity: Nor am I.
Applejack: Y'all just be on yer way, then.
Rarity: After you!

They needed to understate the conflict in order to keep them both seeming mature, or in Rarity's case refined, and just a basic verbal back and forth while AJ was working fit the bill.

>That is far more set up than "six legged polka dot pony" which literally comes out of no where and is unrelated to anything that happened.

Wrong again, on both counts. They were playing Twenty Questions you pleb, and were down to two questions left and they'd gotten none of them right, so they just said the most random thing to say "I give up." And again, Twilight's reaction only worked because they established she had been doing everything by the book until that point, where she just flips the script and says yes, then shuts them down when they react.

>References can still be humorous if done well

Yeah, about that-
>and you failed to address)
No I most certainly did not.

And to prove it...

>>30855681

We know that the CMC are prone to over-doing it, but Mac's reaction is flat. That alone could work if it titillated some sort of reaction from the CMC, like shame, or maybe some banter about how "We have other potions, you know!" It's just a 'remember that time'? and then nothing. There's nothing funny about the reference because there's nothing funny about the reaction to the reference.

>ad less mature characters fighting

As opposed to more mature characters like Big Mac and Feather Bang fighting with each other, only we literally do not give a shit about one of them or the girl they're fighting over.

>"oh AJ ate rararas smoores, so funny..."
>Because we know why she's doing it, and how Twilight is going to react to it, and how Rarity is trying to be prim and proper and not let it get to her,

and so on.

>"oh AJ and rarara started out trying to be passive aggressive and mature and eventually broke down to bickering like children when they're normally so mature, so funny...."

>She freaked out, a great subversion to the "kiss the princess awake" trope.

It was not, it would've been funnier if it had been a child doing that, but you're going on and on about mature characters being childish when they're snippy at best and then trying to write off this scene because "Well the kids told him to do it! and... I guess he did!"

>If this episode was in season one you would have found it god tiered for being like best night ever.

For fucks sake

>Twilight's interest in contrast adds nothing to the joke.

She has a specific reason to be interested and no alliance to either side to be interested in. Pinkie Pie works on treats all the time and is established outgoing and friendly, so she probably went on campouts, and Applebloom would favor her sister in the joke and wouldn't care as much about Rarity's method.

Straight man only works if we know what they're like and how they'd react to this, we had zero context for how Sugar Belle feels to being sung at.

>>30855681
>How? It was a basic thing while both were doing something physical, a way to keep up the conflict without getting into anything spiteful about it. It was deliberately underplayed for this reason-

By giving them dialog that would only be given to the worst and most generic children characters in cartoons, despite being adults. There are far better ways of getting them to not want to upset Twilight than with a "does not, does too" back and forth while still showing that they aren't happy with each other.

>
Wrong again, on both counts. They were playing Twenty Questions you pleb, and were down to two questions left and they'd gotten none of them right, so they just said the most random thing to say "I give up." And again, Twilight's reaction only worked because they established she had been doing everything by the book until that point, where she just flips the script and says yes, then shuts them down when they react.

A one off gag that has nothing to do with the rest of the episode just so they could get to that "joke." It's bad that they have to freeze the entire conflict just to tell a randumb joke, time that could have been spent actually making Rarara/AJs conflict interesting.

>We know that the CMC are prone to over-doing it, but Mac's reaction is flat. That alone could work if it titillated some sort of reaction from the CMC, like shame, or maybe some banter about how "We have other potions, you know!" It's just a 'remember that time'? and then nothing.

That's where you are wrong. Because the very next line is.

>Apple Bloom: Don't worry, Big Mac. We learned our lesson the hard way.
>Scootaloo: Yeah. We're never gonna do that again.

Pretty good example of them feeling shame.

Cont.

>>30855640
>I feel like you are shit posting faustdrone
And at this point I think you're a fucking moron. I can fling insults too you know.

>I don't see how you are indifferent/dislike so many CMC episodes, yet like crusades of the lost mark, the CMC episode that requires you to be invested in the CMC to enjoy.
Because Crusader of the Lost Mark is one of their gems, which points back to my
>Most of their episode are either average, boring, or forgettable, with only a few gems, for 7 seasons.
You did nothing to disprove that, and even shot yourself in the dick by giving me a list where you ignored most of their episodes, but only put the episodes you like. Meaning even you find most of their episodes average, boring, or forgettable.

>She learned this in the pilot episode of the show
She learned that her time spent in Ponyvill wasn't pointless, and guess what, she got her information from a book that was in her house, when she didn't know what to do when NNM kidnapped Celestia, nor how to defeat her.

>she had to regress pretty far
She didn't regress, you just started after she had life experience, and didn't need a book to her what to do 24/7.

>>30855741
>There are far better ways of getting them to not want to upset Twilight
>Twilight
Wait hold up when do you think that exchange happened?

>A one off gag that has nothing to do with the rest of the episode just so they could get to that "joke."

Wrong again, it had to do with sleepover party games, which they were doing. At the end. When they resolved their problems and were having real fun.

>It's bad that they have to freeze the entire conflict just to tell a randumb joke

Oh yeah, that would have been bad.

Good thing unlike current writers they had an idea about story structure and put that at the end of the episode when everything was resolved and AJ/Rarity were having fun together and no longer being competitive or pushy and they could throw in a little character moment with Twilight putting the book down to have fun, all in one 'random' exchange.

>Pretty good example of them feeling shame.
Except if you read that again the problem was they laughed before it, and then nothing. There wasn't a joke in there, they just called back to it and laughed it off.

Rest of it isn't me.

>>30855689
>As opposed to more mature characters like Big Mac and Feather Bang fighting with each other, only we literally do not give a shit about one of them or the girl they're fighting over.

I can buy adults being clueless at romance and I can especially buy kids being clueless at it. I can't buy adults bickering like children because they dislike how "uncouth" they are. As bad of an episode that PPOV is, it at least gave rarara and AJ a realistic reason for them being mad at each other.

>It was not, it would've been funnier if it had been a child doing that, but you're going on and on about mature characters being childish when they're snippy at best and then trying to write off this scene because "Well the kids told him to do it! and... I guess he did!"

Because in a lot of animated films with princesses in distress, a common trope was for the prince to kiss the princess. That joke was specifically attacking that trope and deconstructing it to show what would happen if people actually tried to do it and because of that, its actually funny. People actually do believe the tropes they see in media to be real, so its a bit more understandable that Big Mac (someone who has a hard time talking about his feelings) would fall for it. We don't get any joke nearly as intelligent as that in Look Before you Sleep.

>the other two would act differently

You are right and they would actually make the joke interesting. Like pinkie pie might give rarara advice on how to make the smoore perfect and some jokes could be made with that or apple bloom might be impatient only to cheer her sister on for eating it. This only makes the way twilight acting more damning as its the least interesting thing they could have done with the joke; why not have twilight try to critque rararas method, that would have been funnier than twilight just going "oooo."

>>30855743
>waifufag
>some how not an insult
Ok faustdrone.

What I am saying is that I don't see why you like Crusaders of the Lost mark, the episode alone is meaningless without the rest of the series and if you didn't enjoy the CMC in any of those episodes (its clear you don't really like them if you are indifferent/dislike every other episode of theirs), I don't see how you would find their special moment to be anything other than "meh." To me it just seems like your likes/dislikes are inconsistent.

>You did nothing to disprove that, and even shot yourself in the dick by giving me a list where you ignored most of their episodes, but only put the episodes you like. Meaning even you find most of their episodes average, boring, or forgettable.

I could give you the full list of CMC episodes I liked as opposed to the ones I think could make top 25 lists. Even then, I listed 15 out of the 29 CMC episodes so far, that is a far better ratio than any of the mane 6.

>She didn't regress, you just started after she had life experience, and didn't need a book to her what to do 24/7.

The pilot m8. She learned this in the pilot when she faced against nightmare moon using what she learned from experience. She clearly understands (before she forgot in look before you sleep) that there is more to learning than just books.

>>30855799
>I can buy adults being clueless at romance

You can seriously buy a 'ladies man suave character' being clueless at romance to act so clueless to that level.

>I can't buy adults bickering like children because they dislike how "uncouth" they are.

Really. You can't buy someone being annoyed at someone else doing something completely different than them and also acting like that's the best way to do it. You can't buy Rarity not wanting to get muddy and AJ wanting her to move, and don't see how someone could be annoyed by the other's response considering, you know, we know their characters and why those traits matter to them. Because we learned about them, established them, and then did the conflict.

>Because in a lot of animated films with princesses in distress, a common trope was for the prince to kiss the princess.

When they're under a spell and can't wake up for some reason and literally never else. You don't see the problem with even a kid reading the story to see the issue with someone just taking a nap, let alone an adult?

>hat joke was specifically attacking that trope and deconstructing it to show what would happen if people actually tried to do it and because of that, its actually funny.

Then she should've been under a spell or something because otherwise that joke makes no damn sense, the prince never kissed her just because she was napping, he did it because only true loves kiss could wake her up.

>. People actually do believe the tropes they see in media to be real, so its a bit more understandable that Big Mac (someone who has a hard time talking about his feelings) would fall for it.

Okay they actually live in a magical world where love actually can give you superpowers so this joke is just falling apart the more it's considered, which is bad when it's supposed to "Deconstruct" something, which is by definition a joke you're supposed to consider and think about.

What fucking book were they reading?

con..

>>30855867

>We don't get any joke nearly as nonsensical and devoid of context and as immature as that in Look Before you Sleep.

Fixed that for you.

>You are right and they would actually make the joke interesting

Only if you consider taking Rarity or AJ out of the joke more interesting.

>Like pinkie pie might give rarara advice on how to make the smoore perfect

Which would fall flat as Rarity was specifically making it perfect, that was the whole bit.

>or apple bloom might be impatient only to cheer her sister on for eating it

Which would mean that the 'neutral party' has taken a side and now there's no conflict because 2-1.

>This only makes the way twilight acting more damning as its the least interesting thing they could have done with the joke; why not have twilight try to critque rararas method,

Because she's learning how to make a smore with her friend, and AJ is teaching her what to do with it. If Twilight corrects Rarity, then there's no conflict at all with anyone. There's no fighting with AJ, there's just Rarity annoyed at Twilight and then... AJ eats the smore? No seriously the joke is "Rarity spends forever making a smore and then it's just gone because AJ gives no fucks" and Twilight is having fun because yay! You make and eat smores in a sleepover, she is learning. As opposed to... Twilight apparently is going to tell her how to make a smore and not learn because you know Twilight!

>that would have been funnier than twilight just going "oooo."

I'd say something derogatory about this but your characterization in these hypotheticals is doing it enough.

>>30855867
>You can seriously buy a 'ladies man suave character' being clueless at romance to act so clueless to that level.

Yea, all he ever did was sing or do tricks, he never actually spoke to them. I can buy people doing superficial shit to try to win over people while lacking substance.

>You can't buy Rarity not wanting to get muddy and AJ wanting her to move, and don't see how someone could be annoyed by the other's response considering, you know, we know their characters and why those traits matter to them. Because we learned about them, established them, and then did the conflict.

I can't buy people holding a grudge over it like what happened in the episode. At most I could see them being annoyed for a moment and forgetting about it.

>When they're under a spell and can't wake up for some reason and literally never else. You don't see the problem with even a kid reading the story to see the issue with someone just taking a nap, let alone an adult?

Not when every time it happens, the "savior" gets the princess in the end. That is part of the reason the joke works.

>Okay they actually live in a magical world where love actually can give you superpowers so this joke is just falling apart the more it's considered, which is bad when it's supposed to "Deconstruct" something, which is by definition a joke you're supposed to consider and think about.

Because they are still trying to portray love as something genuine beyond "superficial stuff done in the media" and that message doesn't change regardless of how badly a canterlot wedding was.

>>30855873
>Only if you consider taking Rarity or AJ out of the joke more interesting.

If the punchline was AJ eats the smore to spite rarara after all the shit twilight made her go through, that might have been funny. Its just void of anything interesting as it stands.

>>30855867
>What fucking book were they reading?

This is a good question, I can't actually find a single instance of a princes kissing a princess to wake her up besides the Sleeping Beauty or the parodies/spinoffs/retellings of that trope, and a couple times when it's not a princess and just someone hit by a spell that will be fixed by true love. There's not a single instance when it's someone kissing a sleeping person to wake them up as a sign of true love.

I mean they could have done something really funny if she had been forced asleep and only his kiss could wake her up, like I dunno it works but she freaks out anyway and didn't like it or it makes her think he's crazy or you know since it's MLP she asks why didn't just get a unicorn or something, but as it stands its a grown adult seeing a storybook where a prince kisses someone for a very specific reason, dresses up like said prince, and then proceeds to ignore that reason to kiss the girl awake.

As a metajoke this seriously falls flat, what exactly was this supposed to be mocking? That princesses don't fall into comas? That she's not a princess? That no true loves kiss isn't the only way to wake up from a nap? What was the idea here?

>>30855873
>Which would fall flat as Rarity was specifically making it perfect, that was the whole bit.

Not if Pinkie Pie was going ballistic over Rarara screwing up the smore.

>Which would mean that the 'neutral party' has taken a side and now there's no conflict because 2-1.

Not a problem. People don't always stay neutral, and there was no reason for twilight to be neutral in look before you sleep. Having her change sides based on the context may have made the episode more interesting as well (it still wouldn't save it by any means).

>Because she's learning how to make a smore with her friend, and AJ is teaching her what to do with it. If Twilight corrects Rarity, then there's no conflict at all with anyone. There's no fighting with AJ, there's just Rarity annoyed at Twilight and then... AJ eats the smore? No seriously the joke is "Rarity spends forever making a smore and then it's just gone because AJ gives no fucks" and Twilight is having fun because yay! You make and eat smores in a sleepover, she is learning. As opposed to... Twilight apparently is going to tell her how to make a smore and not learn because you know Twilight!

Twilight has a book on how to give the perfect sleep over, do you really think that book wouldn't have instructions on how to make a smore?

>>30855799
>that would have been funnier than twilight just going "oooo."
I've been silently reading along your guys' argument but you seriously need to go fuck yourself if you didn't find Twilight being fascinated by witnessing the art of the smore cute and entertaining as fuck
that one bit itself was better than the whole episode you're trying to defend by pretending the "act like apples" joke is actually really clever or how the episode deconstructs tropes and shit
don't even bother replying I'll let the other guy handle you

>>30855949
Snow white?

>>30855837
I didn't say it wasn't an insult, but you're pathetic attempt to use faustdrone to invalidate my argument is why it's cute.

>What I am saying is that I don't see why you like Crusaders of the Lost mark, the episode alone is meaningless without the rest of the series
I liked it because I've seen it coming, just like Dash joing thw wonderbolts, or AJ, Mac, and Bloom's parents. You don't have to like every single episode of theirs to like one gem.

> I listed 15 out of the 29 CMC
No you didn't. you listed 7
>Sleepless in Ponyville
>Flight to the Finish
>Crusaders of the Lost Mark
>On Your Marks
>The Fault in Our Cutie Marks
>Hard to Say Anything
>Campfire Tales
The other episodes had members of the CMC in them, and since you did that, you list drops to.
>13/154
That's a pretty damn bad ratio to me son.

>The pilot m8
What the hell do you think I'm talking about? Where did they find out what the elements are? A book. Where did they find out where to find them? A book. How did Twilight know her friends are the elements? From a fucking book.

>>30855930
>Yea, all he ever did was sing or do tricks, he never actually spoke to them.

You're telling me a SINGER who did ROUTINES for ladies and had them falling over him being clueless at romance is still believable? Well I guess I can't argue with you there, the nothing-character that he was could've been anything, who gives a fuck.

>At most I could see them being annoyed for a moment and forgetting about it.

That's exactly what they tried to do, they got annoyed and sniped at each other, then tried to break it off 'reasonably'>>30855681 then they got stuck together annoyed, wet, and it spiraled from there. Progression! It has meaning besides louder songs!

>Not when every time it happens, the "savior" gets the princess in the end.

Right but then you realize that he's not saving her, he knows he's not saving her, there's nothing to save her from, and he knows that, and the joke completely implodes in a wall of stupidity. Wouldn't even be so bad if they didn't try to make it a joke you should consider, and then fail so hard they lost the basic premise.

>Because they are still trying to portray love as something genuine beyond "superficial stuff done in the media" and that message doesn't change regardless of how badly a canterlot wedding was.

And that's why it's important to stay consistent and you know what hold on a second this is bringing up more issues like hey maybe there actually is a spell like that I mean there's a love potion and how the fuck are these writers so bad!? How do you fuck up that badly!? Did they just steal a script from a drunk hobo?

>If the punchline was AJ eats the smore to spite rarara after all the shit twilight made her go through

Instead of to spite Rarity for making her wait for her food, while Rarity can't react because Twi's having fun?

...

>>30855987
>don't even bother replying I'll let the other guy handle you
You faustdrones can't even defend your own episodes. I find characters entertaining/cute when they aren't reverted into idiots for the sake of that cuteness. Staremasters is a shit episode for that reason.

>>30856013

>Not if Pinkie Pie was going ballistic over Rarara screwing up the smore.

Then we've lost the joke entirely and now there's nothing but a back and forth on S'more etiquette which doesn't fit in the episode.

>Not a problem.
Unless you're writing a conflict story between two parties and holy shit really? You can't be serious.

> People don't always stay neutral, and there was no reason for twilight to be neutral in look before you sleep.
What the fuck

>Having her change sides based on the context may have made the episode more interesting as well
Only if you want to escalate the conflict to more childish and insane means where nobody acts sane and-oh wait I just remembered the episode in the OP.

>Twilight has a book on how to give the perfect sleep over, do you really think that book wouldn't have instructions on how to make a smore?

Oh sure, but now you've lost your straight man, your character building of Twi learning, and the entire joke of Rarity's reaction to Aj, which at least made sure everyone contributed to the joke.

Sure, it's not a reference from one character that gets dropped, but it's something!

>>30855997
...are you legit retarded or did you think everyone thought the poisoned person in a coffin was 'sleeping'.

>>30856014
He's doing a stellar job, I'd just mirror his argument in an uglier way because I'm neither as eloquent nor as patient to deal with your bullshit

>>30855999
>I liked it because I've seen it coming, just like Dash joing thw wonderbolts, or AJ, Mac, and Bloom's parents. You don't have to like every single episode of theirs to like one gem.

I don't get it though, why would you even care about if you are so indifferent about the CMC?

Oh, so episodes that are heavily reliant on the CMC but also involve another character "aren't real CMC episodes?" The only episode I listed where it could be argued to not be a CMC episode is Brotherhoof, but even then, apple bloom is still heavily involved and learns something as well.

15/154 despite the CMC having less episodes than the mane 6, only 29 episodes involve the CMC and despite that, most of their episodes are top 25 worthy.

>What the hell do you think I'm talking about? Where did they find out what the elements are? A book. Where did they find out where to find them? A book. How did Twilight know her friends are the elements? From a fucking book.

How did Twilight realize what the real elements were? From learning from her experience? Why did celestia want twilight to go to ponyville, to learn friendship outside of books. The entire point of the pilot was to teach twilight that there is more to learning than from books.

>>30856037
How did they awaken her again?

>>30856048
Sounds like the faustdrone excuse for not being able to back up your arguments and instead leaching onto smarting people's opinions. Guess thats why there are so many faustdrones on /mlp/

>>30856074
Oh my god you can't make this up

What more is there, where else do you go? How can you seriously reach above the height of "Thought POISONED PERSON IN COFFIN WAS 'JUST SLEEPING'"

You cannot. No one can. Nothing can.

>>30856093
Since you aren't going to answer the question. The kissing trope extends beyond just "sleeping," and the trope was meant to tackle all instances of "saving" a girl through kiss.

>>30856082
You're cute, anon. You deserve at least a ribbon for all the pointless effort.

>>30856108
>and the trope was meant to tackle all instances of "saving" a girl through kiss.

Nope, it was meant to specifically tackle her being forced into a deep sleep through a spell. Which, surprise, they did! We literally saw the Evil Queen poison the apple with some sick liquid skull-magic. Even in the instances when it's just a coma in the non-grimm tales, it's still implied to be magical in nature, and it's certainly magical in every single well-known version of the story. Unless some kids are into some obscure shit, "Kiss breaks spell keeping princess asleep" is what they know. What, did you think after seeing her get up all the kids assumed she was a zombie? That would almost be as dumb as the guys who wrote a fully functional adult reading all of that and thinking she needed 'saving' from her hammock and nothing else.

Present a single instance when the prince kissing her awake has not been because she's magically placed in that state.

>>30856066
>I don't get it though, why would you even care about if you are so indifferent about the CMC?
because it was a good fucking episode? It ended the character arc that's been going on for years?

>15/154 despite the CMC having less episodes than the mane 6, only 29 episodes involve the CMC and despite that, most of their episodes are top 25 worthy.
You list still only has 7 of those 29 CMC episodes. That's still fucking bad even when you compare it to the main six. I also know your lying about their episodes being the top 25 when you only listed 7 actual CMC episodes, and 13 total CMC members episodes.

>How did Twilight realize what the real elements were? From learning from her experience?
After she read a book on what they are, not before.

> Why did celestia want twilight to go to ponyville, to learn friendship outside of books.
That has nothing to do with Twilight learning anything from books, especially seeing how in the opener she thought it was more important to find the elements to stop NMM, which she learned about from a book, and they found all the answer they could want from a book.

>The entire point of the pilot was to teach twilight that there is more to learning than from books.
No, it was to teach her
Princess Celestia: I told you that you needed to make some friends, nothing more. I saw the signs of Nightmare Moon's return and I knew it was you who had the magic inside to defeat her, but you could not unleash it until you let true friendship into your heart.
That still has nothing to do with stopping Twilight from using books.

>>30856144
>>30856144
Do you think MLP is going to mention death directly. Its pretty clear though that the "kiss the princess" trope is more popular than just one story.

>Present a single instance when the prince kissing her awake has not been because she's magically placed in that state.

Hard to Say Anything. Because part of the joke is that people (even adults) can accept a bad message from media and act poorly because of it (see the nice guy phenomena) and this is just a way for MLP to show that (considering that children's birthday parties are considered appropriate for adults in equestria, its not that unrealistic for ponies to take fairy tales seriously)

>>30856174
I see, your list counted several episodes twice.

You do realize when I say 13/29, I am counting the episodes you aren't counting, I am defining CMC episodes as any episode that has at least one member of the CMC be a relevant main character. Still, having nearly half of all of their episodes (and nearly all of their episodes in the later seasons) be quality is something no other character besides Glimmer has done.

>After she read a book on what they are, not before.

But could not do anything to harness them until she realized what she learned from experience.

>Princess Celestia: I told you that you needed to make some friends, nothing more. I saw the signs of Nightmare Moon's return and I knew it was you who had the magic inside to defeat her, but you could not unleash it until you let true friendship into your heart.

Which she needed to learn from experience, and she did.

>>30855160
This episode was garbage. The romance was portrayed in such a petty, infantile and rushed manner that i'm wondering if the writers are even above 15?

What they should have done was make them friends like with Discord and Fluttershy and THEN make an episode where Big Mac want to confess but panic over the fact that suggesting romantic relationship may ruin their friendship. Abd the message is that it's okay to do it and it doesn't ruin it but actually reinforce it.

>>30856202
>Do you think MLP is going to mention death directly. Its pretty clear though that the "kiss the princess" trope is more popular than just one story

Except it's not and we just proved it's not, the Sleeping Beauty story or in you want to count death Snow White is it, that's all, it never happens otherwise.

>Hard to Say Anything.

I was almost going to let you have this one just to give you a single Victory on this subject of the kiss but after reading the rest.

Big Mac is not a prince. Fucking DENIED.

>Because part of the joke is that people (even adults) can accept a bad message from media and act poorly because of it

But the message isn't bad, and because of the poor execution that this episode put into it, it even messes up the very context of it so that this can't even work as a joke. Well, okay, it's a "the main character is so stupid he doesn't understand basic things" joke, but you know what I mean. For a not raised in the wild character.

>is just a way for MLP to show that

And the point is they failed because they ask you to think about something like this, but then they completely mess up the context to such a level that any kid with half a brain would put two and two together and realize that no, this isn't the same thing.

>(considering that children's birthday parties are considered appropriate for adults in equestria, its not that unrealistic for ponies to take fairy tales seriously)

One, fairy tales are fucking real in that universe. They are proveably a fact of life. Two, the issue is that he's not taking the fairytale seriously, we can see that he's not taking the fairytale seriously, if he was he would get the basic aspects right, there is nothing for him to save her from. At least manufacturer a conflict!

If they were hoping to teach kids a lesson, then they are even bigger failure somehow, and that would be a trick considering.

>>30856258
>Big Mac is not a prince. Fucking DENIED.

He is a princess.

>Except it's not and we just proved it's not, the Sleeping Beauty story or in you want to count death Snow White is it, that's all, it never happens otherwise.

The subversion of the trope still applies to both of them, so the example works.

>But the message isn't bad, and because of the poor execution that this episode put into it, it even messes up the very context of it so that this can't even work as a joke. Well, okay, it's a "the main character is so stupid he doesn't understand basic things" joke, but you know what I mean. For a not raised in the wild character.

You don't think stories about how the nerd in highschool doing something really "cool" to win over the popular girl isn't something people would take seriously. I see fairy tales to be something similar to those in the MLP universe because it is similar to how they view children activities as adult..

>And the point is they failed because they ask you to think about something like this, but then they completely mess up the context to such a level that any kid with half a brain would put two and two together and realize that no, this isn't the same thing.

The context is fine considering its much more realistic to the average persons every day life. The point of that joke was to show that just kissing the sleeping girl won't win her over, properly deconstructing the trope. It was never about the spell.

>One, fairy tales are fucking real in that universe. They are proveably a fact of life.

This only strengthens my point. This means that the characters in the MLP universe would have even better reason to take them seriously and that they would need a lesson like this.

>Two, the issue is that he's not taking the fairytale seriously....

See what I said above.

>>30856323
>He is a princess.

Keep dreaming.

>The subversion of the trope still applies to both of them, so the example works.

Sadly, as we have pointed at repeatedly, the subversion does not, because it misses the major point and become unrecognizable even as a joke

>You don't think stories about how the nerd in highschool doing something really "cool" to win over the popular girl isn't something people would take seriously. I see fairy tales to be something similar to those in the MLP universe because it is similar to how they view children activities as adult..

Could you imagine a nerdy kid walking up to a girl putting his hands on his hips, and acting shocked when that didn't win her over? And then the author comes out and tells you that it was supposed to be a subversion on the nerdy kid does something cool and then gets the girl thing. Do you see why that would be missing a piece of the puzzle? And why the author would be a moron? That's the level this is at, it misses every single thing about those stories except for one verryy narrow section that literally never is seen without the other parts.

That's how bad that writing is.

>properly deconstructing the trope. It was never about the spell.

Okay, are you intentionally missing the point because there is literally nothing else to this? The spell to put her in that state is the Crux of the entire trope. It's literally the glue of the entire story, and every single solitary story that uses it, everyone. Even if by some miracle you were so desperate to say well, it didn't need to have a spell, you would still have to at least acknowledge the basic fact that these writers were so stupid they forgot to put in the conflict that he is supposed to be rescuing her from with the kiss! That's how badly they fucked up the subversion.

>The characters in the MLP universe would have even better reason to take them seriously and that they would need a lesson like this

To what? Learn not to save them from nothing?

>>30856375
>you would still have to at least acknowledge the basic fact that these writers were so stupid they forgot to put in the conflict that he is supposed to be rescuing her from with the kiss!

Yeah, I don't get that. A dog and pony show at least had the whole power fantasy, even if it was later subverted by proving he's not quite that big but this one just had him come up to her, what's the prince supposed to be rescuing her from?

Like what is this supposed to be implying that little kids thought you just need to kiss a lady and then she loved you forever?

The only one dumb enough to think that are the writers.

Could have at least had the CMC pretend to be a dragon or something?

>>30856375
>Could you imagine a nerdy kid walking up to a girl putting his hands on his hips, and acting shocked when that didn't win her over? And then the author comes out and tells you that it was supposed to be a subversion on the nerdy kid does something cool and then gets the girl thing. Do you see why that would be missing a piece of the puzzle? And why the author would be a moron? That's the level this is at, it misses every single thing about those stories except for one verryy narrow section that literally never is seen without the other parts.

Except, a better example given the joke would be the nerd getting into some "cool" hobby that the girl shares with him, and then she still rejects him because sharing a hobby isn't enough to form a relationship. That subversion works fine and while it doesn't have the "nerd comes first place in football or any other "cool" hobby," it still works.

Same applies to this subversion, there is no sleeping spell, but the joke doesn't exactly change even if there were one (and there isn't a point in convoluting the episode with finding one). Here its, big mac tries to kiss the sleeping maiden because thats how the prince won the princess over, its important to note that even in the original fairy tale, the prince didn't actually know about the sleeping spell and just kissed the princess because she was so pretty.

>>30856490
>Except, a better example given the joke would be the nerd getting into some "cool" hobby that the girl shares with him, and then she still rejects him because sharing a hobby isn't enough to form a relationship.

Except no, in that scenario the nerd is still doing all the things in the trope. Your example is how a writer would actually subvert the thing, as opposed to what they did in the show.

>Here its, big mac tries to kiss the sleeping maiden because thats how the prince won the princess over,

And as we keep pointing out over, snd over and over, no, the Prince does not get the girl to love him just from kissing her awake, in every, single, solitary, story, he is rescuing her. Every single one. Every time he gets the girl? He is saving her first. Every single story. How do you not get this? It's the sole focus of every time.

What the fuck could Big Mac possibly thought he was saving her from in order to win her over? The nerd didn't do anything cool! There's no story!

>its important to note that even in the original fairy tale, the prince didn't actually know about the sleeping spell and just kissed the princess because she was so pretty

We're going to ignore for a moment that most kids would not know this, and that they would not have even heard that version of The Story, So separating it for them would be pointless. Instead we're just going to focus on the thing you keep ignoring. Regardless of his motivations, he got the girl for one reason. He saved her. He did something cool and shocking and saved her life, and that's why he got the girl. And that's a consistent thing across every single story. That's why this scene is so bad as a subversion, why it's so terrible when you think about it, and why it's so goddamn moronic that they actually thought they could teach kids a lesson with it. How do you miss the one thing? That one thing every story needed or that didn't even happen at all? Im asking you, because it's pretty obvious you would know.

>>30856250
They had 22 minutes. What did you expect?

>>30856517
Wouldn't this actually reinforce the bad message for any kid watching? They would just think, oh, I can't just kiss her, I have to save her first. Then after I save her, she loves me. See, he didn't save her first, and she didn't like it. He had to save her first. I mean, and all the stories where he saves her, the guy gets the girl. This one showed me that if you just do it without doing anything cool first, you don't get the girl. He has to be cool.

It's not really teaching kids anything but the fact that you need to have a dragon slayed before you get that pussy

>>30856517

>We're going to ignore for a moment that most kids would not know this, and that they would not have even heard that version of The Story, So separating it for them would be pointless. Instead we're just going to focus on the thing you keep ignoring. Regardless of his motivations, he got the girl for one reason. He saved her. He did something cool and shocking and saved her life, and that's why he got the girl. And that's a consistent thing across every single story. That's why this scene is so bad as a subversion, why it's so terrible when you think about it, and why it's so goddamn moronic that they actually thought they could teach kids a lesson with it. How do you miss the one thing? That one thing every story needed or that didn't even happen at all? Im asking you, because it's pretty obvious you would know.

And ignoring everything else, that is exactly the key to this. The problem with Big Mac is that he thought he had to save or "win over" the girl like they were a prize as opposed to another person and by not having the sleeping spell, they successful show how weird that notion is. The point of that scene was to show Big Mac not understand anything about relationships beyond trying to "save someone/win them," and failed to consider the implications of that type of a behavior in a situation where it is not necessary. Having Big Mac try to save Sugar Belle from an actual sleeping spell would have ruined that aspect of the episode.

>>30856567
>It's not really teaching kids anything but the fact that you need to have a dragon slayed before you get that pussy

Until you realize that earlier in the episode, they deal with that trope as well.

>>30856583
>The problem with Big Mac is that he thought he had to save or "win over" the girl

From what. No seriously what the fuck could he have possibly thought he was saving her from in story. I seriously want to know what you came up with.

> like they were a prize as opposed to another person and by not having the sleeping spell, they successful show how weird that notion is.
Or utterly fail by now implying that the deciding factor is he didn't "earn" it. The notion of "walk up to person and kiss, get love" sure is weird, isn't it? I mean, literally not even children have that misconception because there's no story whatsoever that supports it, but good for them. They successfully portrayed if you do nothing you don't get anything. They failed at everything else, but they pulled that off.

>the point of that scene was to show Big Mac not understand anything about relationships beyond trying to "save someone/win them,"

And then the writers failed like goddammit champions by not even having him try either of those things.

> and failed to consider the implications of that type of a behavior in a situation where it is not necessary.

Because... morons who don't know how to read are funny? Or he thought he was saving her from the hammock..

You tried to pretend this was smart at one time, didn't you? I honestly forgotten my brain is melting.

> Having Big Mac try to save Sugar Belle from an actual sleeping spell would have actually been a subversion jnstead of a guythinking he didnt have to do anything to win her over and instead reinforce every bad thing about that trope bynprovjng it rayher than denuing it, and ruined that aspect of the episode.
>And they prayed some idiot would actually try to defend this, wish granted!
You're like the worst version of pinnochio

>>30856632
>From what. No seriously what the fuck could he have possibly thought he was saving her from in story. I seriously want to know what you came up with.

Nothing. Because that isn't the point. The point is that Big Mac knew no other way of winning over a girl besides "saving" them, even if there is nothing to be saved from.

It's also an attack on gender norms, but I know that conversation won't go well on 4chan.

>>30856632
>bynprovjng it rayher than denuing it,

Jesup fuck this asshole is so retarded he's actually killing the poor sap with sheer stupid trying to defend the most fucktarded joke in the episode!

Fllee friend, flee! It's not worth it anymore! He's actively trying to say using the sleeping part of sleeping Beauty would make it worse!

It's not worth it man! Save yourself!

>>30856250
That message would rather fit Discord or Fluttershy episode since we already got the idea that they are best friends. It won't work on new characters that suppose to become a pair in one episode.

>>30856648
Because it would have killed the message of the episode or made it so convoluted for a joke that it would have wasted too much time.

>>30856644
>Because that isn't the point. The point is that Big Mac knew no other way of winning over a girl besides "saving" them, even if there is nothing to be saved from

Well then, Kissing the Girl to win her over trope utterly failed to be subvertee, isn't it? Because they didn't separate anything, they removed something. If it's not about to subverting this trope, then it's just about Big Mac being so dumb as a character he'll dress up like a Prince and try to kiss her unprovoked even though no story told him to do this. And every story hold him not to do it.

There is no subversion, no clever twist on the old trope, because that trope isn't present, he's not out to save the girl but there's a twist, he's just an idiot that tried something with no basis.

>It's also an attack on gender norms,

Sure it is, girls... sleep? And don't like to be kissed asleep? I don't know at this point I can feel the scraping on the bottom of the barrel for anything to make this seem anything other than the retarded mess it was. It was a dumb, poorly thought-out joke that will only dependent on somebody making a funny scream. but wasn't it funny? He dressed up all silly, and then he made her scream. That's the whole joke there's nothing really else to it. No, it didn't flip any fairy tail on its head, those all still work just fine because they have the proper context, and no, it didn't really say anything about our society, because even children aren't that stupid as to think that would work, but it sure did make a funny face. Haha. What a funny face.

File: cowboy_tom.gif (2MB, 170x123px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 170x123px

>>30855160
> cringe humor
> funny

Opinion busted

>>30855206
>Party of One has a poorly written pinkie pie instantly going mad at the slightest hint that her friends didn't want parties because an equally poorly written spike told her a lie.

How could they be poorly written? It was the first season. Their characters were hardly even developed yet.

>>30856667
>Because it would have killed the message of the episode

Yes, that episode would have been utterly destroyed if they had made the message that he couldn't win her over like the prince in a fairy tale by actually doing the things the prince did in the fairy tale. Instead he had to prove he... wasn't going to win her over by kissing her while she's asleep with nothing else? Wasn't going to win her over by going off what he didnt read? He wasn't going to... be a prince?

>or made it so convoluted for a joke that it would have wasted too much time.

Would have taken 2 seconds for them to manufacture something for her to be saved from. Literally.

But then we wouldn't have mac dressing up like a prince because... wait, hold on, they don't even dress like princes in there. We've seen them.

Look just don't look effiminate and don't kiss someone without it being needed to save their life. Or don't write for kids shows if you don't understand a fucking fairy tale.

>>30855265
>if you liked Sonic rainboom, you're just a dashfag and there's no helping you.

I liked it, but Flutters stole that show.

>>30856668
>Well then, Kissing the Girl to win her over trope utterly failed to be subvertee, isn't it
No. It's subverted because it didn't happen as the trope says. As I said before, the prince didn't know about the curse in the original, he just kissed the princess unprovoked. Big Macs reasoning for this makes sense for the reason I said here >>30856644

>I don't know at this point I can feel the scraping on the bottom of the barrel for anything to make this seem anything other than the retarded mess it was. It was a dumb, poorly thought-out joke that will only dependent on somebody making a funny scream. but wasn't it funny? He dressed up all silly, and then he made her scream.

You clearly aren't listening to reason. Did you even bother reading what I said? It was a clear subversion on the "guy has to win over girl" trope which attacked gender norms.

I am getting the feeling you are just shit posting now.

>>30856687
>Would have taken 2 seconds for them to manufacture something for her to be saved from. Literally.

Give me an idea then. How would they get a sleep spell? They don't know anyone in that town. She wouldn't need to be kissed if she was attacked by a monster.

So explain to me, what idea do you have that would work, be explained quickly, and wouldn't have any unfortunate implications for any of the CMC/Big Mac (especially apple bloom).

>>30856240
>You do realize when I say 13/29, I am counting the episodes you aren't counting, I am defining CMC episodes as any episode that has at least one member of the CMC be a relevant main character.
And I have account for those. You ratio becomes 13/154 give or take repeating episodes, because that's how many episodes the member of the CMC have appeared in total which includes your 13. You ratio stills suck no matter if you use 7/29 (actual CMC episodes) or 13/154(total episodes).

>But could not do anything to harness them until she realized what she learned from experience.
And Twilight learned that from a book. All Twilight did was learn from a book and applied it to a real life experience, just like they teach you in school. How are you not getting this?

>Which she needed to learn from experience, and she did.
After she was forced to go to ponyville. Still the 'lesson wasn't do use a book'

>>30856715
And since when has the CMC had 154 episodes? And how can you say thats its (7/29 CMC episodes by only counting half of the CMC episodes and pretending the other half don't exist while still conveniently keeping those on the denominator).

>And Twilight learned that from a book. All Twilight did was learn from a book and applied it to a real life experience, just like they teach you in school. How are you not getting this?

Yea, she can apply her knowledge to real life experience. You figured it out. Why didn't she do that to a much simpler problem?

>>30856701
>>30856701
>No. It's subverted because it didn't happen as the trope say

Then it's not fucking subverting the trope. It's subverting, well, nothing. If you don't have even the basic setup present, then you are not flipping anything on its head, because there is nothing to change and subvert. That's what it means. Subvert. Thing happens and you except a result but then the audience's expectations are subverted. No expectations are subverted if what they expected to happen is exactly what happened. And guess what? Even kids know what would happen if you just try to kiss a lady without doing anything else. Even children know this. But not the character.

>As I said before, the prince didn't know about the curse in the original, he just kissed the princess unprovoked.

And as I said, and you keep ignoring because that's pretty much the end of it, barely any if any children know of that version, period. And if by some chance they do, then they also know that regardless of his reasoning, he knew what he was saving her from when he pulled it off. No matter his motives, his actions did not change, and the result of them did not change. As I said, it's a moot point, kids don't know that story, but even as a bare-bones basic you're wrong.

And I already replied to the reason you gave, and how stupid it was. It's literally a couple posts up go ahead and read it again.

>You clearly aren't listening to reason. Did you even bother reading what I said?

This would have so much more weight if I hadn't been repeating myself over and over about the what subversion is, like were on time four and youreally not even repeating it anymore, you're down to just linking to the stuff I already tore apart.

> you are just shit posting now.

Is shitposting talking to the void and expecting it to listen? I am.

I don't know why, you need this thing to be smart even as you keep admitting that more pieces are missing and claiming it couldn't be fit in or is better without it.

>>30856724
>And since when has the CMC had 154 episodes?
They don't, they have 29 episodes that are purely about the CMC. In the list that you gave me, you only gave 7 out of those 29. Every other episode on your list is an episode where a MEMBER of the CMC appears, that does not make it a CMC episode, it makes it a character focused episode. IF you're going to pretend that just by have the spot light on a member of the CMC counts as a CMC episode, then you must use the total (because you used all three individual character episodes) episodes, bringing it to 154.

>Yea, she can apply her knowledge to real life experience.
And she learn that knowledge from a book. You really can't follow this argument can you?

>>30856701
>No. It's subverted because it didn't happen as the trope says.

Oh holy shit>>30856769, have you just been arguing with this guy because you both had different definitions of subversion?

I mean yeah the scene is dumb as rocks and it's laughable that anybody would try to defend it or make it smart, but at least I get it now, he thinks subverting is not doing the things the trope is about, you say it's taking the trope and subverting expectations on it.

All because a guy couldn't admit the character interactions suck, and we're down to this last argument.

>>30856792
>because a guy couldn't admit the character interactions suck, and we're down to this last argument.
....oh shut right, we were arguing about episodes.

I'd forgotten around the third repetition of why the joke where he dresses silly because the picture book told him to and tries to kiss a sleeping person is not smart. I have such regrets

>>30855160
It was on par I'd say.

>>30856773
Can you list all 29 episodes then?

>>30856769
>Then it's not fucking subverting the trope.

You keep repeating yourself even when presented evidence to the contrary. The trope is subverted because big mac didn't get the girl after trying to kiss her awake, when in the story, the exact opposite happens for the prince (and in most variants as well).

I would really like to know how you would make this scene "better" without providing any unfortunate implications with a sleep spell.

>And as I said, and you keep ignoring

Does it really matter if children know of it or not? Are children really the ones who will understand anything about trope subversion or even care beyond whether or not the scene is funny (it is)? Don't just say "it's for kids" because MLP has constantly defied that expectation. Season 7 has had a constant theme of providing more for adults compared to the other seasons too.

>This would have so much more weight if I

This is the problem. You keep repeating yourself while ignoring any argument to the contrary. You haven't addressed the unfortunate implications of a sleeping potion, how it makes sense for big macs character, etc.

>>30856792
You do realize we can see the post count not increase every this "new" person posts.

>>30859104
No because it's not a real subversion because there was no sleep spell to free her from, how hard is that to understand?