What is the most efficient way for ponies to wage war given their

>>30685111
Neither. Discord is on their side and he could end the conflict with a snap of his fingers.

>>30685128

>Season 4 Princess Abduction Crisis
>He did basically nothing but provide moral support
>Tirek Crisis: Actively opposed the heroes despite technically helping in the end.
>Three's a Crowd: Sent two monarchs on a dangerous adventure and risked causing instability across two nations.

Yeah, uh, I want to have a plan B.

>>30685134
Fluttershy keeps him in line now.

>>30685111
It's impossible for Pones to wage war against themselves, otherwise windigo's would just come along and fuck everything up.

>>30685134
>>30685136
Discord doesn't give a fuck, he does what he wants. He's no more useful than a bucket of dirt.

>>30685128
>he could end the conflict with a snap of his fingers.
So why didn't he just snap his fingers when Chrysalis came back?
A worm got the drop on him

>>30685111
Weather control. Pegasi can make sure any invading army drowns in mud or freezes in heaps of snow.

>>30685137
>against themselves
>Diamond Dogs on one front
>Griffons on another
>Saddle Arabia Islamic Radicals on another
>Risk of internal strife from Unicorn Supremacists

>>30685134
Okay, here's your plan B.

Celestia and Luna remind the opposing party that if they were to somehow be defeated, than they would not raise the Sun, nor the Moon and that the planet would die.

Ponies are immune to war, they're too important to the planet.

>>30685155
They have problems with dragons and griffins

>>30685158
Yaks tried to declare war, would probably get BTFO since there's only like 20 of them

Reminder that giving your enemies bad, unfavorable, and freak weather is totally an option for ponies. What can a society with no control over the weather do against that?

>>30685159
Weather control would still be the ponies' best weapon.

>>30685205
It really must suck to not be a pony in equestria, you are basically useless.

>>30685111
Short of an effective eugenics program magical talent is unpredictable. While training would increase overall efficacy it would potentially be ineffective if the average unit possessed little inherent capacity.
Technology is much less effective but can be mass produced and used by anyone with basic training.
They currently have:
>4 Gods
>functional electricity (depending on the episode ^: )
All threats need to contest with the relevant Gods (and many do) however in the neutralisation they usually have to expend their own magical resources. Upping the basic efficacy of militia would be the most prudent action.

>>30685155
Ineffective, takes ages to perform especially in wild environments and would leave them open to attacks. Mud Horses need to start pulling the slack. With proper co-ordination a cavalry would distract long enough for weather effects to be manufactured with magical evacuations for all.

Technology is the most important field for development.

>>30685158
Weakness to plan B:
An enemy that can mind control sufficient amounts of unicorns or the princesses themselves.
An enemy that's magical enough to do the job.
An enemy that straight up does not give a single fuck about the planet dying.
Chrysalis, Tirek and Sombra

The upcoming movie is about storm apes invading equestria.
Ponies just gawk at them or run away

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>>30685128
>You, general anon, ask Discord for his assistance to fight an invasion by the Griffons.
>He does so, but as the result of being the embodiment of chaos, the entirety of equestria is riddled with anomalies and other chaotic phenomena.
>Now you created the equestrian equivalent of the Zone
Try again anon

>>30685158

>get like twenty unicorns to agree to raise the sun and lower the moon in their place

>>30685128
Discord is too unpredictable to be relied on in a war. Fluttershy is actually way more important to have on your side because unlike you, she can actually dictate what role Discord has in a conflict

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>>30685111

>>30685342
Fluttershy would by default be on the ponies side, so Discord wuld be too.

>>30685360

In before Celestia's utterly weak and doesn't know how to fight any more.

>>30685299
unless mind control is involved, i don't see how they would be able to get 20 treacherous unicorns.

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>>30685158
this >>30685299

>>30685111
I would say focus more on technology, with magic used as a usefull tool, not main battle force. (sending messages, illusion, barriers, engineering, etc.)

Ammount of war wizards and military magic in general is limited by their cutie-marks.
In case of war it would rise because young ponies would be in contact with conflict thus developing battle related cutie marks. But in the times of peace it's almost impossible to get that kind of cutie marks considering that their society looks quite peacefull, crime is rather low etc.

Considering their overall technology level, they could probably reach something like late XIX century military standard in few years if they focused on it.
I'm speaking about their whole army, equipping thousands of ponies, logistic, and other things. Not few super heroes with super abilities (like in crystal war timeline), but whole society focused on war effort, fighting another society focused on war.
It wouldn't be exactly like our develpoment considering that they have magic and ability to fly (rendering most of classic defences like castles or trenches pretty useless).

Their curent military equipment looks like something straight from ancient greece. Which suits their body types pretty well (unability to wield two handed weapons, more "static" way of fighting and longer bodies - a lot less maneuverable formations).

Celestia and Luna don't really work as some super trump cards. They are insanelly valuable as leaders and symbols for ponies. Lose of even one of them would be giant blow, and every enemy on the batelfield would be focused on them. And while they are quite powerfull they would be easily overwhelmed by trained enemies, or even removed outside of the bateliefield. So the best option for them would be to stay as far from battelifled as possible. ( same with elements of harmony).

>inb4 super duper Celestia defeated by Chrysalis who was pumped on love of only one stallion

>>30685372

>see how the nobles of Canterlot behave
>don't think you can find 20 people who would betray the throne for more power

>>30685391 (cont.)
but I agree with >>30685158 that ponies are too important
but not because of Luna and Celestia, but because they can produce immense ammount of cheap food. So unless other countires closed their borders for pony food, and developed their own agriculture they are dependent on Equestria
Also if equestria got attacked they could just stop selling food to all other countire, so everyone would put pressure on attacker to stop

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Just a little reminder that everything that isn't managed by ponies is a fucking mess

>>30685430

Let the enemy know her fury.

>>30685111
I would say technology because it is easier to equip an army with easy to use weapons than to find highly trained soldiers. Given that gunpowder exists guns and artillery are not out the question.

Weather factory + Pegasus = Good fucking luck fighting that

Literally the best weapon in pony side

>>30685533
While having weather control can be very useful at times such as preventing airstrikes or bogging down the enemy troops and logistics, it still uses up resources that are meant to keep the country properly hydrated for consumption, industry, and agriculture. Desalination plants can be built up, but you have to properly defend those assets as well and it still uses up pony resources. Also the enemy might also have weather control capabilities.

>>30685613

>Also the enemy might also have weather control capabilities.

Like who? this isn't a civil war between ponies. No other race control the weather, only the pegasus/probably weather CM related unicorn.

>>30685721


Weather would be insanely usefull in strategicall regard. You can flood roads so enemy army is uncapable of advancing. You can make it snow in mountains so they can't go forward and go back. You can make drought in enemy teritory so they start to starve.
But it became less usefull during direct battles. (not during sieges though). You can create some kind of weather constructs like tornadoes or ligtning. But your enemy would do everything to stop you, he would shoot at you, or even attack directly (griphons or airhsips). And even if you manage to properly prepare attack than you can't really controll it, if you create big tornado you can't guide it all the way to enemy ranks, just point it in general direction. And if enemy have some means to counter it (flying or magic) than you can just shoot your own soldiers. But it could be used during ambusehs, like unit of pegasi just harrasing enemy army or supply lines with aggresive weather.

>>30685393
>more power
>lifetime of daily hard labor
Yeah, I don't see any canterlot unicorns paying that price.

>>30685721
Well not Equestria itself, but there are other nations that have ponies. I don't know if Griffons can bust clouds but they seem to be able to move them. Also there might be other creatures that use magic similar to unicorns that is adapted to weather use. Mostly headcannon stuff at this point but not out of the realm of possibility.

The most efficient way to win a war is for the princesses to teleport in and abduct the family members of the leadership of the belligerent nation. Victory without bloodshed.

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This just makes the most sense to me

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>all these losers hyping ponies up to be something they're not
>This guy flew his armada straight to the equestria with no problems

>>30686124
Right, but we already know he will lose.

>>30686124

And that armada will be defeated by six ponies and a baby dragon

>>30686149
Don't forget the parrot pirates, hippogriffins, anthro cats and sea ponies

I'd say combine to the two to make magitek. Specifically electronic devices that can cast spells. They can make magical ray guns that turn anything that gets hit by them into inanimate objects and gravity manipulation spell grenades that increase the pull of gravity within a set radius around the grenade when it goes off to the level of Jupiter's gravity and squashes anyone caught within that field under their own weight.

>>30685299
Doesn't the Journal of the Two Sisters or some other official book show that their magic goes away after they do that? Like it drains them to the core?
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that was one of the catalysts for Celestia and Luna to take the sun and moon duties over apart from it being their cutie marks.

>>30688252

>'official' book
>not ever referenced in the show

>>30685111
As a currently drunk alcoholic who's written much on the subject.

The first question that must be asked, is if the princesses/elements will interfere. While just not letting the sun up isn't an option, because Equestria would be hit just as hard, Alicorn magic could easily level cities. Meaning that the only 'warfare' there would be is
>Yaks angry
>Celestia reduces yakyakistan to rubble
>Yaks go home
Maybe an issue with changelings, but since the reformation, that isn't really a problem.

So, assuming that the princesses won't interfere out of principle (not wanting to level cities and armies because it would corrupt them in some way), or for whatever reason they are too busy, we need to look at Equestrias technology level.

On one hand, it looks like a pre/early industrial society, but society isn't entirely focused on agriculture (the immediate Apple family can harvest fields upon fields of orchards, with only 2-3 working ponies. That means that the vast majority of the population isn't forced to grow food, allowing bigger cites (Canterlot, Manehattan, Las Pegasus, etc.) to be rather common.

Based on Manehattan, we see a large metropolis with skyscrapers. That requires three major things.
1- food to support non food providers. (which thanks to cutiemark focused ponies like the Apples, isn't an issue)
2-some sort of water/sewage system
3- elevators for all the skyscrapers (unless everyone on upper floors are pegasi)

Points two and three would require things like engines and motors to run those items. However, the streets of Manehattan are filled with carriages instead of cars, meaning that no combustion engines really exist (or are EXTREMELY rare, such as Flim and Flam's cider machine, although that could have been magically powered as both are unicorns).

If combustion engines don't exist, that the logical step is that for the more modern aspects of pony society, electricity is replaced by application of magic.

>>30688811
This magic application is then the reason for the hodge-podge of technology in Equestria. Fancy computers like seen in the Twilight episode where she tried to quantify the pinkie-sense, exist alongside horse-drawn carriages.

To step away from magic for a moment, let's look at weapons technology.

Royal guards and the like are seen with medieval style weapons and armor. While some palace guard type still wear old uniforms, they still use modern guns (the swiss guard or the Buckingham palace guard), but because Celestia's guard are equipped with medieval style weapons, that would indicate that hand (or hoof) held guns aren't a thing.

Gunpowder itself, does seem to be a factor going off of the party cannon. Even tiny streamer pistols use combustion to propel the streamers and paper shards, so it isn't that much of a step to assume that (proper) cannons exist, but are still in an early stage of development. That would place Equestria's warfare around the late 1200s to mid 1300s or early 1500s compared to Europe, as the arquebus was put into the field around the 1350s, but the era of pike and shot didn't properly start for another century or two.

Having deduced a late middle ages time period for Equestiran weapon technology, the last factor to take into account is Magic.

The vast majority of unicorns seem only able to use a spell or two related to their cutie mark, however levitation and basic channeling of magic seems to be universal among unicorns.

>>30688817
That would mean that (average) unicorns would serve as elite infantry (able to wield multiple weapons/shields) or as ranged fighters (flinging items or pure energy at enemies). High tier mages would work more akin to artillery (say Napoleonic era) units from later periods, being able to have a much greater effect on the battle than cruder cannons. If there was a way to amplify the average unicorn's magic, then there would be an increased emphasis on having many more unicorns work in that field.

Basically
>Earth/crystal ponies= infantry
>Pegasi= cavalry (due to the mobility equivalencies of a horseback soldier and flying unit) or air force (providing close air support)
>Unicorns= archers and/or artillery (depending on how much raw magic can be manipulated for the average user)

Making Equestrian warfare look generally Late Medieval in nature, maybe with a hint of Napoleonic fighting if unicorns can be exploited to full potential.

And yes, I know there are several leaps and assumptions of the nature of general technology in there, that’s just me working with what I have from the show.

>>30688819

>implying leaps of logic and assumptions are the life blood of these kinds of thread

>>30688819
And finally, due to the lack of magic in other species, they would focus more on improving cannons and prioritizing their own natural talents to make up for the magical supremacy.

Griffons would be a highly mobile force, yaks favor heavy infantry swarm tactics, etcetera.

>>30688826
Yeah, because honestly in any fantasy setting, a single large creature (Dragon) or powerful magic user (Tirek, Discord) would make everything a moot point.
>>30688833
Also as seen in the Changeling reformation episode, magic can be nullified, so potential enemies to Equestira would place a fair amount of effort looking for a similar way to do that.

>>30685158
It was shown that their powers to raise the sun and the moon could be transferred, such as when they were given to Twilight when Tirek was rising.

>>30685111
Honestly? Pegasi. Lots and lots of pegasi. While a lot of people are gonna come here and go 'make wizards, Twilight can level armies,' on the whole, that's not really sustainable. Twilight and Glimmer had to study their whole lives to reach that level. Pegasi, on the other hand?

>Are the most mobile of all the races.
Unless you're fighting another race with wings, Pegasi are always going to have the inherent advantage of being able to fly. Any close combat with them is going to end in the pegasi's favour. And any combat that doesn't include large amounts of ranged weaponry is going to be completely crushed by the pegasi's ranged weaponry.
>Air superiority
Goes without saying. The most advanced flying machine we've seen is an airship, which a pegasi can easily outmaneuver. It would be like trying to shoot down a fighter jet with a blimp.
>Impossible to hold ground and cannot be attacked, period.
Pegasi live in the clouds, and are the only race that can do so. This means that removing them from an area is basically impossible. A group of pegasi in a cloud bunker are untouchable and able to rain hell down on anything that comes near them. And even if you can somehow reach their clouds, pegasi also have the ability to simply push them elsewhere or to a more easily defended position.
>Most importantly, weather control
It doesn't matter how tough your army is if your enemy can control the conditions you fight in. Tornados? Endless rain resulting in mud and floods? Targeted thunderstrikes? Instant blizzards? You can't reasonably plan against something like that.

Remember that any pegasi, even Derpy, can do every single one of these things. The future of combat is flying.

I'm reminded a lot of what Janitor Anon said in his green about pony warfare. The goal is to use pegasi to basically harass and hit and run the enemy until they give up, because there's no real way to stop them from doing so.

>>30688878
I agree in principle (after all, there's a reason the pegasi were historically the more militant species of pony), but would bring up two points.

Firstly, while Rainbow Dash can clear skies in seconds and bash out rainstorms from a single cloud, she isn't exactly the average pegasi. That'd be like saying every unicorn off the street is naturally at pre-alicorn Twilight/Glimmer's level.

When they had to make the waterspout to supple cloudsdale, it took a considerable amount of pegasi to do it. Air supremacy is an immense factor, but it seem that only the best fliers can control weather solo on a whim.

Second, look at the Battle of Britain. The RAF's only real goal was to shot down ten percent of Luftwaffe aircraft per sortie. That seems insignificant, but if you're losing a tenth of your skilled and trained pilots (in this case pegasi) every mission (day), you'll soon run out of capable men.

For whatever reason, I've always assumed that Earth Ponies were the majority, with pegasi making up around 20% of the population and unicorns around 10%, so they might just not have enough pegasi bodies to send into the meat grinder. But that's just me.

Either way (assuming weather manipulation is rare for individuals alone), a proper testudo or mass arrow volleys would be able to defend against air attacks without bombs/guns to fire and make the skies a dangerous place (respectively).

And also, it'd be safe to imagine that in any war scenario, any enemy (other than yaks maybe) would have developed a reasonable counter to pegasi (or unicorns) before going to war with Equestria. I'd imagine that a Hwacha style artillery piece would work rather well as an anti-air weapon if made properly

In my opinion, where pegasi would be able to really shine against non-flying opponents other than general flanking maneuvers, is siege warfare. A skilled strikeforce of pegasi would be able to completely blitz a gatehouse and let a ground force through any walls rather easily.

>>30688966
>Firstly, while Rainbow Dash can clear skies in seconds and bash out rainstorms from a single cloud, she isn't exactly the average pegasi.

True, but consider that I'm not talking about ponies like Rainbow. Sure, the wonderbolts are great, and any one of them is capable of creating a tornado, but the average pegasi has shown to be able to make thunder or snow or clear clouds. Just on a smaller scale. All you need is a small force of, say, twenty pegasi and you can make it rain all day.

> you'll soon run out of capable men
I'm not saying to suicide bomb people with your pegasi, I'm just saying that a pegasi with a sword or a lance has an advantage in a fight because of their ability to fly and maneuver. Though whether they'd be better than a unicorn using telekinesis is up to debate. And that same ability to fly coupled with the cloud walking also makes attacking or counter-attacking them difficult. And since we've seen that pegasi can also reinforce clouds, simply triyng to shoot through the clouds also doesn't work.
Pegasi can effectively choose to only attack when they need to, because they don't need to worry about defense or holding ground.

>with pegasi making up around 20% of the population
Personally, I've always seen it as an equal 33% all around, but I agree, we don't have any real numbers to go on.

>I'd imagine that a Hwacha style artillery piece
True, but that can't be helped. Every race has something that would make doing their job difficult, that doesn't mean that you should just give up on the sheer utility or mobility of the pegasi at all.

>>30689140
All more than fair points, It's definitely a very plausible possibility.

Really it all depends on statistics we'll never receive, this being a kids show and all.

As to
>The average pegasi being able to make thunder
(I've had a lot of vodka, so sorry if I'm forgetting anything) care to give an example of non Rainbow/rough equivalents (lightning dust/wonderbolts) making lightning? (if it's derpy, I'd argue that she's not really average in that as a filly (in the pictures from the rainbow family episode) she clearly had distinct potential as a flier, and she's kind of a pegasi Pinkie (in that the gag supersedes any malleable physics and logic)

And to the pegasi as mobile infantry attacking ground formations.
If they fly at a ground formation directly, someone would probably see the incoming air attack, and the defenders would place all their spears/swords pointing up, so at some level it'd like a cavalry charge going into pikes. Of course they would be more dispersed than a proper spear wall or phalanx due to the dimensions of the formations (ponies and similar species beign longer than they are tall), but you only need a few to get impaled on defending weapons to deplete manpower.

If they were archers or other ranged types coming in for a bombardment, then the defenders (if they're watching the skies properly) would be able to prepare shields and have their own archers start firing into the air.

>population statistics
Yeah, a census would do wonders for this type of discussion.

>Race's specialties.
dogs would make great sappers, griffons as skirmishers/mobile soldiers. Yaks/bison have endurance (I'd assume) and resilience to wounds that would seriously injure or kill ponies, minotaurs have strength (a MAJOR factor in melee fights). Changelings (pre-reform) seem able to field the best army, as each drone could serve in any position. And we haven't really seen enough of Saddle Arabians to judge them (are all of them so tall, or just the royals)

>>30686124
Which shows that ponies are not really prepared for war

Perfect time to have a thread discussing efficient ways they can get prepared for war

>>30689214
>minotaurs have strength

And an upright posture, and thumbed hands. That means they get to wield better weapons in a better way.

>>30689214
> making lightning

Ah, you're right, I don't have an example. The closest I can find is Fluttershy's dad keeping lightening in a bottle; I'll concede this point.

>>30685144
>Doesn't give a fuck

Someone hasn't seen the flutterbutter visits discord's house and he spergs out like a fucking anon on 4chan episode.

>>30685145
He did snap his fingers multiple times.He honest to god tried at least....except bugbutt had bullshit plot armor until Thorax became gay.

>>30688811
>>30688817
>>30688819

>late middle ages time period for Equestiran weapon technology

We don't really have many hints, but looking at royal guards they seem to be closer to ancient greece than medieval. Completely lack of chainmails, lack of swords, their armor is close in stylistic to ancient times too (and completely useless).

We don't know if they have cannons, I would say no. While we saw party cannon I wouldn't use it as argument for whole society because simply, it's Pinkie. They probably have gunpowder or some magical equivalent because they have fireworks but that's it. They have a lot of semi modern technology but that doesn't mean that it is used in imiltary. We don't see any guns in crystal war timeline, and any time we see guards/wonderbolts fight something they never use anything more than basic hoof/spear/magic.

We need to remember that Equestria is rather peacefull and I assume was for pretty long time. Maybe even since NMM. So we don't even know if ponies fought any wars after unification, thus they probably lack any development in combining their types, and most of their tactics rely on independent work of each pony type.

I wouldn't focus that much on unicorns in direct contact. Firstly their abilities are greatly limited by cutie marks, and consdering how yound pony is when getting cutie mark, unless war comes to pony teritory most of foals would never be close to conflict, so we never would have many ponies with battle related cutie marks. And even if it would still take years before they are old enough to fight. Another thing is usefullness of unicorns in close combat, we don't know how good telekinesis would e in wielding weapons. Maybe superior to other ponies. Or maybe when you hit something lifted by telekinesis you break spell and couse headache for caster? Who knows? They are better suited for other taks, engineering, sending messages, creating barriers, ilussions etc.

>>30689282
Yeah, I think that our perceptions are kind of muddied by the mane 6 (+glim glam now).

>Twilight (Pre princess)/glimmer= magical savant
>But Rarity (A better 'average' unicorn in terms of magic)= levitation (Telekinesis,sorry for using
'levitation' earlier) and sensing/finding gems (her 1 spell related to CM)

>Rainbow Dash= probably the strongest/most adept pegasi we've seen, litteraly a superhuman (pony) in terms of abilities.
>Fluttershy= 'average' pegasi (well, maybe sub-par with her flying abilities), has never really shown any flying prowess unless friends are in distress, and no real weather control other than pushing the limit with the waterspout.

>Applejack= prime earth pony. Insanely strong, great connection to the land, can do the work of a hundred+ men.
>Pinkie= (gag/logic break notwithstanding.It being Pinkie makes it hard to quantify) not particularly strong, but probably has a leg up on Rara/Flutters, great cook (probably earthpony related, maybe. Again, hard to quantify, so it's better to look at background earthponies who generally seem to be adept at food/strength related things. (maybe not quite to the extent of AJ, but still worth at least ten humans in their specific field)
>>30689250
Yeah, minotaurs would have a huge advantage in war. Other than flying/magic capabilities, the only thing the others have going is they seem to have a numerical advantage. IIRC, Iron Will is the only minotaur we've seen on screen, so maybe there are a lot less.

Tiny nit-pick, ponies don't seem to have issues grabbing things with hooves (unless for gag like with the episode in the current season where Twi has to babysit Flurry, and cherilee has to rewrite the chalkboard by MOUTH.) maybe that's just a gag, maybe it's more selective. Another case where the kid's cartoon nature hurts this type of discussion.

Either way, even if ponies have some degree of hoof grasping capabilities, a hand grasp would still be exponentially better.

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>>30688878
>>30688966
>>30689140
>>30689214

And I agree that pegasi are probably the best choice. No matter if we are fighting flying oponent or not.
If we speak abuot griphons, pegasi are only ones that can match them in any way. And if we are fighting non flying oponnt it gets even better.

>you don't neven need to directly attack your enemy when you can outmanuver them so easily
>hold his army in any way, create giant rain and flood roads, create snow or something, or even use earth ponies and unicorns to slow him down
>while pegasi can attack his supply line, or even attack deep into enemy territory
>they don't need to engage with any bigger forces
>they can sleep everywhere, if they need to eat or drink just raid some village
>you have forces that can attack everywhere and can't be reached by enemies
>they render most of classic defences, like walls, useless
>you win war without even one battle

>>30689320
About m6 being some overpowered examplles
yes and no
>Twilight is completely OP true, but Rarity is rather normal
>RD is one of best flyers, and rather athletic, but in terms of strength she is probably better than average pegasi but nothing special, FS looks rather weak
>AJ is normal earth pony, nothing special in her, I don't know why people assume that she has some kind super powers, while she struggled to match RD in physical competition, she's probably stronger than average (a lot of hard work) but nothing more
>Well Pinkie isn't argument, I think she just shouldn't be brought in any serious discussion

Also I think if any other race tried to attack Equestria they would firstly try to develop something to stop/counter magic. Maybe some runes/enchantments or some materials or other things. But they wouldn't just charge into magical powerhouse without any protecion.

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>>30689250
I don't see having only hooves as that much of a problem with ponies. Technology and weapons can be adapted for hooves like having >pic related for triggers.

>>30689313
Fair argument, especially with cannons. Although (personally) the presence of fireworks would double down on gunpowder having military applications. Some of the earliest applications of gunpowder were effectively weaponized fireworks.

To the Classical VS Late Medieval, I would point to metallurgy. (A leap given, well- magic). Because the Greeks or Romans, despite how advanced they were, they wouldn't have been able to make skyscrapers as seen in high-rises in cities like Manehattan without advanced steel making skills.

The chainmail point is great, but remember that in terms of pony soldiers, we only have the royal guard to go off of. And many royal guard type units often wear ceremonial armor/uniforms that isn't that practical (why doesn't the Buckingham palace guard do their rounds while wearing Kevlar and plate carriers?)

You bring up peace since maybe NMM times, and I'd think that would make feudal style armies more plausible VS standing armies of Roman or Modern times. Aristocrats and nobles certainly are a thing as seen in the Canterlot high-society, So it might be that in case of war, the rich would fund armies to fight in Celestia's name (Filthy would raise a ponyville levy, Hoitytoity and other Canterlot aristocrats doing similarly). As it seems that local identity is a big factor (see the Equestira Games), further supporting a more decentralized system.

Are swords really not a thing in the show? I could have sworn I remember seeing them on screen.
Either way, it's important to understand that historically, swords never really were the main weapon. Even knights or samurai would open battle with spears/pole arms and leave their swords as a sidearm of sorts. The idea that every solider in the middle ages was in plate mail with a sword and shield is a product of media and the 'coolness' factor. Swords are cooler than spears, so of course your on screen army uses them primarily. (MLP gets a pass, because spears are less 'military')

>>30685111
>What is the most efficient way for ponies to wage war
Send Twilight Sparkle to solve the problem because she's basically a glorified police officer.
Seriously, every time the world has ever been in a bad situation they always just sent Twilight or someone who knows Twilight to fix shit while the military just sits around at home jerking off to ceiling tiles.

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>>30689355
I didn't speak about their whole society, just about their military. We can't compare ponies to humans because while among us military quite often had best tech and a lot of inventions was driven by that, their society is at least on XIX century level while their army (royal guards only) looks like straight from ancient greece.

> feudal style armies more plausible
If they had peace for so long why would nobles need armies? Their mindset would be really different from ours, while we see it as necessity they would be obsolete for them.
Also we need to remember that their job is often limited by cutie marks. So without conflict there just wouldn't be ponies with battle related talent. And to just conscript ponies they would need to make gigant changes in whole society. Their job no longer would be limited to their talents, but to the need of country.

>Some of the earliest applications of gunpowder were effectively weaponized fireworks
Yup, but ponies aren't militarized, for them fireworks are only pretty lights

>Are swords really not a thing in the show?
I spoke only about royal guards, even if swords were in show, they aren't part of standard equipment of guards.

>I would point to metallurgy
Again while they have tech it isn't applied into military


I mentioned it few posts earlier, I think if they focused on it they would reach late XIX century military tech level in few years. Maybe some more time considering that they probably don't have mass production so it would take some time to equip whole army. Of course they would adjust their tactics and development to magic and flying.

>>30689340
To pegasi:

I think that griffons have been seen doing much the same on screen, at the very least in flying capabilities (in which case they could be an ideal anti-pegasi weather trump card). And due to the addiction to gold/money in griffonstone, if any race was predisposed to begin mercenaries, it would be griffons.

A flying force would be ABSOLUTE hell on a nonflying enemy, but to hit some of the points

>Pegasi on supply lines/sleeping anywhere.
They still need clouds to sleep on without threat, and only coudsdale can manufacture then. if skies are clear, then they're shit out of luck without very vigilant watches.

>Attack where ground troops cant get/render classic defenses useless
That's where anti air comes in.
Imagine"
>Okay, we have this wall, bit they can fly.
>Well, let's put a roof on it.
>Cool, now they can't hit our defenders from above.
>They can still get a lot of ponies into the city...
>Yeah, bit at best that's a third of their forces. To control walls, gatehouses, and keeps, the need to land and fight inside, where they're on equal footing with us.
>What about the city?
>Have soldiers ready to go building to building. They can't hit the walls directly, but we still have arrow slits pointing to the sky.


>Supply lines
More case sensitive, but if the pegasi don't know the land, and the enemy who do know it move by night, there isn't much they can do.

>rain/snow
Dependent if cloudsdale clouds reach the area, without clouds, well shit.

>Holding armies
>"Sir, enemy fliers."
>"We have archers."
>"But they can fire from heights that our arrows cant hit!"
>"We have shields."
(if you've ever seen Tremors 3, Imagine the mattress walk but with shields instead)

>>30688811
Speaking of the changelings and other species that the ponies are on good terms with, how do you think their relationship with Equestria would affect the war? Would they be close enough to want to help Equestria? Would they be motivated to?
Diplomatic relations are a pretty important factor in conflict. Think about both of our world wars.

>>30689340
to the M6 comparisons, yeah. past unicorns it does kind of fall apart a bit.
>>30689390
then that falls onto, how quickly can we find military applications for our tech. Look at America pre-WW2. We had tons of car factories, but when it started, they all started building tanks and airplanes.

Assuming the princesses/mane6 don't finish the fight immediately, they'll quickly learn to start making the best of what they have.

>Cutie marks and society
When the factory workers had to go fight, women (who had no real workplace experience, let alone heavy industrial experience quickly learned to pick up the pieces. Having a CM means you are really great at one thing, that doesn't mean you're shit at everything else (sweetie has a CMC mark, but she still sings pretty damn good, scoot has a CMC mark, that doesn't mean she lost the ability to ride her scooter). if it's a war mentality, then you just need bodies on the field in formation.

For example, in WW2 aces got the vast majority of aircraft kills, but without non-ace wing men to fill out the skies, the would have gotten swarmed. Having one royal guard type that's great at war supplementing ten peasants who are decent-ish at war is better than just one royal guard great at war.

Then after war starts becoming a reality to ponykind, more and more ponies would be born with war based cutie marks (assuming that CMs work as a sort of Supply to the Demand of society). (I'll admit that we don't really know the true mechanics of that, so it might be a stretch.)

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>>30689392

Well, other countries don't controll their weather because they simply can't. So it's logicall to assume that while ponies controll their weather if they stopped weather would still work. Clouds would occure naturally, wind will blow etc.
So they can just find needed clouds, they don't need to bring their clouds with them.

>What about the city?
>Sir they started to drop flaming shit on our buildings
>Fugg

Also castles were build so small force could defend against many more enemies, and they wanted to keep as little people inside as they could, because otherwise they would starve. If pegasi could just fly above walls, they wouldn't have to fight that many enemy inside, because there wouldn't be many of them. And if they didn't care about city that much, they could just set it aflame from above and wait with rain clouds for enemies to surreneder (sieges are big things, so they would just get clouds form cloudsdale). Sieges lasted often for months even years, while with pegasi you can do it in days (same with airships tho).

>More case sensitive, but if the pegasi don't know the land, and the enemy who do know it move by night, there isn't much they can do.
They have other targets, magasines, bridges and many more, also good luck with suppling your whole army while moving stealthy, using only carts.

>"We have shields."
So they attack soldiers who don't have shields?
Skirmishers, rear personell, etc. They can also drop other things onto enemy, containers with flaming substances, or even simply rocks. And when guns appear, well got luck for people under them.

>>30689428

>how quickly can we find military applications for our tech

Problem is that it looks like they didn't reach industrialization yet. So they can't addapt their factories because they don't have them. So to equip whole army they would have to first build factories.

>>30685156
Saddle arabians are ponies though.

>>30685111
Always remember ponies hit like a brick.

>>30689414
In my story, I based the first main arc over:

Equestria has easily been able to beat each species individually (thanks to anon applying logic to counteract their naivety to conflict.) so what would happen, if Equestra was at war with literally everyone else, and in civil conflict to boot.

Because honestly, Equestra is kind of a powerhouse with Pegasi and Unicorns, and the only REAL issue would be crushing armies and occupying areas/dealing with unrest in those zones if the higherups in the capitol had half a brain when it comes to military matters.

In a fresh war, I'd guess that step number one would be to court the griffons to counteract pegasi, After that it'd be getting everyone possible to beat the juggernaut of Equestria (which is really three/four nations in one (pegasi, unicorns, earth ponies, crystal ponies)

Fuck, it's 4am

>>30689444
Go to sleep Anon.

>>30689437
theoretically, griffons can control weather too.

>Flaming shit
Flaming arrows have never been worth shit in history. The only purpose they serve is as a signal at night, because they do no real extra damage. Burning pitch or molten sand would be dropped through murder holes in gatehouses, but it would have been extinguished/cool by the time pegasi reach the enemy.

>Castles were built so...
In a world where we didnt have to deal with flying shit. Is it so hard to believe that fortifications in Equestira would be made with pegasi/unicorns in mind? Making underground tunnels to move supplies in city/castle limits, thick enough walls to sustain magical attack, etc.

>Magazines, bridges
Supply depots are a big thing pegais would be good at hitting, but also something worth defending.
>Stone bridge VS flask of oil.
>Oil burns out, bridge still standing.

>Attack non-shileded enemies.
Disperse the army. March wide, so that if they want to hit with good enough accuracy, they have to get close enough to be at risk from our own archers.
Alternatively, build dedicated anti-air equipment.

>Send clouds from the 'dale.
Depends on how far away cloudsale actually is. If they're sending a ton of clouds halfway across the world to turn Saddle Arabia into a pile of muck, that means farms in equestria aren't getting the rain water they need.

>>30689474
>Flaming arrows
I never mentioned flaming arrows, I know they are shit, but there are other ways to set city albaze from sky

>In a world where we didnt have to deal with flying shit
Griphons probably have castles suited for defence against flying opponent. Best option would be just drilled mountain. But those kind of construction would be really expensive, most cities would proably just have basic walls.

>Stone bridge VS flask of oil.
They have gunpowder. Also maybe some magic explosives. What are wood bridges tho?

>Disperse the army.
You still are constantly shoot at from above. They also can just attack you encampment, supplies and rear personell, instead of main army. And when your army engage with enemy they can shoot from behind.

>Depends on how far away cloudsale actually is.
It can move. If they want they can move just weather factory. Or part of it. It would make managing their own weather harder but they need to have some priorities.

>>30689501
We really are just arguing the minutia of Equestria fighting Vs fighting against Equestira.

the point is, like with many military tactics, it's a constantly evolving development of counter and counter.

>Wood bridges
Fair.

>Constant Harassment
Soldiers still need rest, and the pegasi are no different. There'd need to be significant cloud cover to let the fliers sleep, but it'd be a logistical nightmare getting water (alleviated if there's enough clouds to house the pegasi, but then they're literally drinking thier beds), food, and munitions (arrows, other projectiles). Each of those latter two would require huge amounts of air manpower to keep pegasi in basic supply, and then there's medical needs.

>Move 'dale
I guess that all depends on how fast it can move, and if the factories can be split up or if it's an all or nothing move.

Anyway, it's been fun going through these points/counters tonight, but I really need to sleep. Night Anon

>>30685111
Pike and shot style formations. Tercios. Earth poneis can hold pikes and use arquebus with the stick. Pegasi could easily be cavalry. Unicorns have the dexterity to use swords. Probably a heavy reliance on artillery due to lack of fingers

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>>30689516
night

I want to write a war fic based around Colonial-era/industrial revolution, rifled barrels, steam engines, revolvers, Humans employed by Celestia as 'Foreign Instructors' to train new equestrian armies. Western powers vie for control of access to ports and resources; but don't seek to colonise equestria.

Think Japan and Asia, 17 18th century.

>>30689320
On pegasi, remember that Twilight Sparkle has actually measured the wing power of Rainbow and Fluttershy; with Rainbow being a 16 and Fluttershy being a 2. I think it's fair to say that Fluttershy doesn't represent the average pegasi either.

>>30688846

Admittedly, even Discord could still die if he was hit by something he wasn't aware of.

And Tirek could have easily been shrekt if the pony in the alleyway just hit him with a stick.

A dragon, for better or worse, would probably decimate an army but an army prepared to fight one would probably have ballista and trebuchets ready to deal blows that the dragon would not easily forget.

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>>30689354
Or they could have mouth grips with a tongue pulled trigger like in FO:E.

>>30692012
Seems impractical for rifles and bigger guns.

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>>30692064
Which is why they mount larger weapons like that on harnesses called "battle saddles" instead.

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>>30692126
I can see many problems with that. You can't handle reloads and weapon jams. You have to expose your entire head, neck, and body to fire over cover, but the biggest problem I see is the inability for anti air coverage, especially against other pony nations with pegasi and entire countries with its entire population that can fly.

During my time spent in the infantry and ROTC, I learned that you should always base your tactics and weapon capabilities and not the other way around. I would base infantry tactics on the true and tried method fire and maneuver. If I was an pony infantry platoon leader, I would have my squads be set up where earth ponies would be equipped with rifles and crew the LMG that would make up the base of fire. I would make assault teams of pegasi or unicorns that would be part of the maneuver element and go from there.

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You'd think some better weapons would have been developed alongside the body armour in the Crystal War timeline, three years into the conflict at the time.

>>30692220
I don't count that timeline as a base for their technology since they didn't even include a single spear, something that was shown in the same episode.

>>30692220
That body armour is just jacket, and some "armourish" looking plates that don't really cover anything vital. Just lover chest and parts of legs. Not head, neck or upper chest.
Ponies can't into war.

>>30692202
Well its a TV-Y show. You can't expect them to show limbs being blown off by explosive ordnance and artillery fire or ponies being turned into Swiss cheese by machine gun fire like what would happen in an actual war, though it seems to happen offered considering the Dash's missing wing, eye scar and partially missing ear in that timeline..

>>30692265
>*off-screen
Fucking autocorrect.

Regarding Pegasi and fortresses in the sky:

I've long wondered how feasible it would be to set up a bunch of barrels burning something that would produce a toxic or acrid smoke to use against the Pegasi. Lime, maybe? Supposedly the fumes from that stuff can get pretty bad if you're not careful.

>But they would put it out with rain
A, wouldn't that require them to be up in the air in the middle of the smoke making rain while they're choking up their lungs? And B, a lot of chemical fires aren't so easily extinguished. It's not like a wood pile.
>They would just blow the smoke back at you
Interestingly, large-scale winds is something we haven't seen Pegasi really do. Yes, they made a tornado - in an extremely small area, with viewers sitting nearby who were basically untouched. That's not enough to disperse floating clouds of choking smoke.
>The smoke would just hang below their clouds and never penetrate through.
This is the actual problem I see being greatest. Would smoke like that travel up through clouds? Would the fine particles in the smoke impregnate the water vapor, and can pegasi, say, get chemical burns from clouds that have absorbed toxic smoke?

If nothing else I see it being a practical means to keep Pegasus flyers from directly strafing you at low altitude.

>>30685111
>That's not enough to disperse floating clouds of choking smoke.
Actually in Wonderbolt Academy Rainbow Dash and Lightning Dust create a tornado together explicitly to clear the sky of clouds. It worked but at the cost of disrupting the other cadets' efforts and nearly killing the other 5 members of the mane 6 as they were approaching the base via hot air balloon when the two of them lost control of said tornado.

>>30692385
Meant to reply to >>30692344

>>30692385
True, and there are some pretty strong outliers in general for Equestria - Big Mac tugging a whole house around, for instance. In general, though, I think it might work if not being used on two of the top pegasi of the time.

I think in a world where there exist beings with all-encompassing magic abilities on the level of time alteration and interdimensional banishment, teleport anything and anyone to anywhere with no delay, the very concept of violent conflict goes out of the window. If you want something to happen, better research your magic because at the end of the day you're always at the mercy of the bitch with the largest horn.

Which is more or less what we see in the show too. The show doesn't paint it all that grave, but, the ruler is the one that makes the sun rise and set at their leisure. You probably don't want to mess with that one.

>>30692722
Celestia is absolutely a huge boon to the ponies' strength... but at the same time, they're also her greatest weakness. Capture a significant population in your opening moves, or make it clear that otherwise striking against you would spell catastrophe for the ponies at large, and she'll stay off the field. Anything to protect her subjects - you just have to make fighting you directly the worse choice.

>>30692971
The thing is, the way I see it, with magic on the table, hey, she could have some magic "the entire universe bends to my will" spell in place. Some kind of magic failsafe that makes it so that whenever something doesn't work out the way she sees fit she can just revert any situation with a snap of the finger. She could be observing anything at once, have any arising conflict be nothing more than entertainment to her.

Or I guess, someone else could have. Some entity watching from above, pulling the strings. An entity that could dislocate the deterministic principles that make the universe move, via magic. A god, basically. From what we've seen, it doesn't seem like there is anything magic can *not* do.

At any rate, when something akin to what we consider "war" happens, it's only because *someone* let it happen. And if it ends, it's because *someone* wanted it to. And, as with everything else, if it could happen by "physical", by our conventions measureable means, it could happen even more effectively by magic ones. In a place where limitless magic exists like it does in FiM, it will always be the ultimate arbiter.

>>30692243
This.
I assume the Celestia was trying to avoid killing people because the majority of Sombra's troops were just mind controlled ponies.

>>30693120
Ah, fair enough. I suppose I kind of see the setting as having an arbiter along those lines - Harmony itself, which seems to have a will of its own and acts to protect its own goals and interests.

The difference is that I see it as neither all-powerful nor necessarily benevolent. It can guide, manipulate, place hints - I sometimes think that Celestia's chessmastery habits were born of studying what Harmony itself does - but it is not God and cannot overwrite the universe on a large scale. Worse, it's not actually good - it's a closed-loop system, blindly preserving its own constants. Largely helpful, yes, but also in some ways hugely detrimental.

>>30693299
Likewise, Sombra was probably trying to do the same, because every pony he doesn't kill is another slave he can send back onto the battlefield. They were effectively at a stalemate to see who would pull out weapons first.

>>30685111
Every pony military unit is a cavalry unit.

>>30693320
Especially the cavalry!

>>30693320

Wouldn't just the pegasi, the airship, train, and wagon ponies be cavalry?

Doesn't everyone else just count as mounted infantry?

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>>30689292
>lazy writing and ideas so bad that the toy department won't even make toys out of them
Remind me again why I still watch this show.

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>>30685111
The reality is that they do hoof slapping as seen in the crystal war timeline.

Realistically, though, they're equines. What do you think they're gonna do? Cavalry doctrine obviously.

If they advance their technology further, they'd be way into mechanised warfare since they'd already be familiar with the basic principles from their role as cavalry. They're already a fair way along towards tanks since we've seen they have steam engines powered by magic. If they've got a way to synthesize helium for airships either alchemically or magically, then you can bet they'd be running an aerial navy of sorts as well. Individual troops would still be using melee combat as a mainstay since they can't really wield ranged weapons and maintain mobility as well, if they had to use ranged weapons it would probably lead to trench warfare and fortified positions as their go-to.

Also, magic's gonna magic, but there doesn't seem to be a large number of canonically powerful unicorns for that to be a widely deployed weapon, exceptionally powerful unicorns would be deployed as specialists like Shining Armor was in shielding Canterlot and later assisting Cadence in shielding the Crystal Empire.

>>30692705
I think you meant "it might not work". And it might take more than two pegasi, but it's not beyond their capabilities. They regularly create tornadoes for weather management through the combined efforts of various civilian ponies.

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>>30696954
I don't see equipping ponies with rifles as a major problem. Like I said before, you should use effective fire and maneuver for modern tactics. That whole cover me while I move I got you covered thing for IMTs is there for a reason. You have to move up with proper support. With enough firepower you can suppress and fix the enemy to close in and destroy them. Fixing bayonets to rifles also can turn them into impromptu spears and will give them more protection if the enemy catches a pony off guard.
The biggest problem with the lack of mobility when firing is near ambushes or other close quarter fighting. Assuming squads survive an ambush they would have to do a bayonet charge and make sure they have a good mix of unicorns and pegasi equip with SMGs.

>>30697371
No, you missed where the negative was - I said it "might work, if NOT being used against two top-tier pegasi". That is, if you use the tactic on a bunch of normal pegasi, it would work.

Because honestly, that little tornado they formed to move water around? It wasn't doing much. They'd have to get in real close, and good luck doing that while you're choking on your blood. (It's also weird because it implies Rainbow Dash + Lightning Dust > Rainbow Dash + 40ish other ponies. What can I say, Equestrian outliers are huge.)

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>>30685111
technology if offensive, magic if defensive. currently even we couldnt hold ponyland unless we wanted to glass the place with nukes, long range weather manipulation means they can whip up tornados and other massive damage systems and blow basically anyone the fuck out that has any technology that relies on supply lines, that means forts, tanks, ships, airbases, It's just a bunch of marines and them and while theyre a pretty bad problem financially speaking it would be a disaster for a country of our tech level to try and take and hold a people with this much defensive capability

>>30685159
both of those things can disrupt the weather enough to be competitive. Human beings generally have nothing but long term weather manipulation, actual weaponization of the weather on short term or defense against it would be out of their leage, especially considering its supernatural weather.

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>>30685802
you are wrong that it cant be controlled, thats the whole point of weather control. you CAN control it. that said, it wouldn't be as expensive as you fucking think. Take mcfucking ponyville. RD alone manages that whole town so efficiently she sleeps most of her days, and while I consider her an extreme outlier, the point is, nobody in weather decided to move her up the ranks to take on huge problems and stresses in the weather managment system. in other words they don;t need her enormous strength, theyre doing just fine, even a small town like there can afford to have her arouind in the first place instead of just paying her whatever she wants to move the fuck back where she's needed.

MLP will experiance hardships in war and probably rationing, but they aren't going to be starving for weathercontrol and power. they'll be just fine. the real thing theyre going to have to contend with is infiltrating gurilla troops, as they can lay low and take out random passerbys by surprise and even if the attrition rate for them is high its still going to be extremely disruptive. real warfronts in equestria would be near impossible to maintain as nothing the humans can do can really hold terrain as their enemies would just flood it with weather. Even if the enemy held ponies hostage the celestial throne could simply grant title and lands to chrysalis and have her infiltrate and outhostage them, and she would do it becuase the human war is bleeding her love supplies dry and the mission is easy and within her skill set and she knows that the celestial throne will honor their promises.

There just isn't a comparability for human offensive military besides nuclear war. The most they could manage is higher attrition and casualties for the enemy but in terms of the economic value of damages ponies can dish out without irradiation and nuclear war factored in there just isn't anything humans can do that can compare to the scale and reach of equestrian air industries.

>>30692344
>using any kind of smoke or nerv gas against ponies
I've said this in another thread but this is like using grenades on the enemy that can be exploded more than once. this is just a terrible idea overall.

>>30698759
you're thinking mid battle tornado summoning type situations.

There simply no point to using that as a comparison because if the poners can do that impromptu they know enough about tornados to do a real one, one that doesn't rely on ponies going fast and instead just involves the weather industry building a weather system that will cause a tornado and deploying it.

>>30698969
>>30698939
Yeah, I was originally talking about using smoke pots as a pre-industrial solution to "besieging" Pegasus cities or denying pegasi close support in a battle. Obviously for preventing long-range pegasus attacks it's not going to work so well.

Nerve gas, on the other hand, is a whole different beast. Modern agents are typically "highly persistent", meaning they cannot be easily blown or washed away; despite the name, nerve gases are actually more like a fine mist of oil. Dispersing deployed nerve gas requires stupid amounts of water; for ponies, that'd mean a storm so destructive they might as well just abandon the area altogether.

Obviously there are the typical friendly-casualty issues with deploying nerve gas, but you're hardly giving them a weapon they can really use.