Why did Twilight get in her head that Starlight had to be sent

Discord was fucking with her and trying to upset her.

Tune in for the next Discord episode where he cries crocodile tears about not being liked despite being a dick no one should like.

>>29873556
Not mention that Twilight requested to stay in Ponyville after Nightmare Moon was defeated

It wasn't implied the Mane 5 were already close. All Celly said was she knew of 5 special ponies who could help Twilight.

>>29873556
Boy, pencils is definitely the king of smugface. Too bad he can't write a decent, non cringy story for shit. Oh well.

It was destiny. Celestia was merely fulfilling it unintentionally.

>>29873556
I think Celestia didn't mean that she waited to long from a technical standpoint, because clearly she picked the perfect time for it. I think what she meant is that she thought she should have sent Twilight away sooner, but she delayed it against her own better judgment becuase she was worried that it would hurt her and Twilight's relationship.

That is to say she delayed for selfish reasons.

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Actually, I'm not sure on this whole sending away thing anymore. Didn't Celestia just tell her to check on the Summer Sun Celebration and then the plan was to return to Canterlot? Or was it a case of knowing she'd find the Elements of Harmony and true friendship there, and wouldn't want to return.

And on that note, I'm not sure why Celestia thought sending Twilight away would even help? Her issue with Twilight was that she didn't seem to make friends in Canterlot, I don't see how moving her away was really going to solve that? Same for Twilight/Starlight desu

>>29873607
The dialogue, yeah
But on screen the 5 were with each other as Celestia looked on them.

>>29873911
They were just walking by as a group, girls do that. They clearly all knew each other before Twi came to town, as in they were friends, just not CLOSE friends yet.

>>29873587
Found the fluttercuck

>>29874020
I think they knew each other, everyone in Ponyville sort of seems to. I'm just not sure how close they were as friends. To walk in a group you've got to be somewhat close

>>29874086
Again, girls just do that. I've seen groups of girls that I know hated each other but still hung out. Not too big a leap to assume that they just weren't close friends yet.

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All of them were ponies responsible for preparations for super important event. Obviously at some point they had to be together at the same time and place.

>>29874143
That's actually a good point.

I mean, didn't Celestia give Twilight a list to talk to them specifically? And would it be apropos to assume that Celestia hoof picked each of them for their jobs so that she could give Twilight an excuse to actually approach each of them.

How many dimensions is this Chess game being played on again?

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>>29874125
>>29874143
Yeah I figure you're right.
I mean thinking about it, even if they didn't know each other very well, most of them I think had a strong bond with a pony or two in the group. Dash with Fluttershy and AJ, Fluttershy with Rarity, Pinkie with basically everyone (Come to think of it, was there any pony in specific she seemed closer to?) etc, figures they'd know each other

>>29874246

Which raises more questions because that sort of implies that Celestia knew all of them were the Elements of Harmony. And if she knew that then it feels like she could have handled the NMM incident better.

>>29873604
To be fair Celestia never said she'd have to go back in the first episode. Twilight realized herself that she might have to go back to Canterlot and asked Celestia if she could stay, without Celestia saying a word.

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>>29874286
>And if she knew that then it feels like she could have handled the NMM incident better.
But didn't she literally handle it perfectly? If she did hoof pick the main 5 because she saw the shining good traits in them, and then sent Twilight to meet them, she kicked off the spark that became their friendship.

She couldn't just tell them "you're the EoH save Equestria", the 6th element was missing and only appeared when Twilight felt the spark.
So on that note, is this kind of lite confirmation that Celestia knew exactly what was going on and knew who the Elements of Harmony were?

Or was it all just destiny? I can't remember the exact dialogue but I'm not sure if Celestia did hoof pick the 5, and even if she did they were the best for the job really.

>>29874286
Prehaps there was a bit of drama required there

Like, if you tell a bunch of people you need to be friends now so that they can activate a bunch of magical artifacts to save the day and they're the only ones who can do it, that's one thing. However, it's much more convincing and natural motivation to simply allow them to be in the right place at the right time and put them on a path where that shows them what needs to be done and allow them to come to the conclusion that they need to do it on their own.

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>>29873911
> Her issue with Twilight was that she didn't seem to make friends in Canterlot, I don't see how moving her away was really going to solve that?

Got her out of the comfort zone of being a libary shut-in.
She was amicable to her classmates to the point that she still got invited to birthday parties, but she and they had grown accustomed to the idea that she was anti-social.
Her former 'friends' even say as much during that episode, they're happy that she's doing okay but they didnt really expect her to keep in contact.

>>29874286
She was Twilight's mentor. She probably could handle the NMM incident all by herself but Twilight wouldn't learn a valuable lesson that way. She then hoof picked the mane5 because she already knew they had the elements traits (like >>29874362 suggested) to force Twilight to meet them and discover friendship.

One could also question why did Ponyville have a book about the Elements of Harmony and not Canterlot, but that might be another thing Celestia setted up for Twilight (remember she said Twilight could stay on the Treebrary while she was on Ponyville).

>>29874508

Still just paints Celestia as an arrogant jerk who is just playing with everyone's lives.

>>29874491
>Got her out of the comfort zone of being a libary shut-in.
She was sent to live in a library and only very temporarily wasn't it? The Sun Celebration was the next day, wouldn't she have been back in Canterlot? Not really far out of the comfort zone and even then, there was no guarantee it'd open friendship to her at all.
Also Celestia and Twilight seemed to talk about sending a pupil away like it was the next logical step if I'm not mistaken, even for Starlight who'd already discovered friendship. I don't get that.

Let's just say it's the writers ignoring things like they usually do and call it a day

>>29874286

She couldn't have known until they got their Cutie Marks, at the least. That would have been the giveaway.

And shoving them together like some demented shipper wouldn't have formed the bonds needed to awaken an actual friendship. But knowing in advance where the other five were and thinking "Hey, destiny?"

Absolutely. I mean, it's not like she didn't have an agent of SMILE literally living there, the odds that public records track cutie marks as an ID are near 100%, and so on.

Picking Ponyville for the celebration and sending Twilight was putting the last piece in place and trusting in destiny to assemble them.

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If Twilight was meant to be what binded them really closely together (given AJ and Rarity didn't exactly like putting up with each other in the Sleepover one) why were they acting like best friends here? Because that really contradicts her entire purpose as a character.

>>29874832
Read the thread
>>29874143
>>29874246
>>29874283

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>You sent me to Ponyville, which means it's time for me to send Starlight Glimmer away!

I don't get this

>>29875040

Twilight is not a smart pony.

>>29874246
>And would it be apropos to assume that Celestia hoof picked each of them for their jobs so that she could give Twilight an excuse to actually approach each of them.
Would that not have been delegated to the mayor, given swhe runs the town holding the celebration?

>>29875068
Really? I thought her whole character was being intellectually gifted, but not very social.

>>29875078
Celestia is seen talking to the Mayor in the episode.
Whether she hoof chose them or not, it's clear she knew the 5 were special.
And if she knew that, then perhaps sending Twilight to meet them was more than a happy accident

>>29875068

No. Twilight is not a wise pony.

Intelligence does not equal the wisdom to apply it properly in all situations.

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>>29875040
>>29875068
I genuinely don't understand what it's supposed to mean though. What would sending Starlight away accomplish? Why do it?

>>29875290

Twilight logic chain:

When a Princess's student has grown enough, you send them away on an adventure as the next step. After all, that's what Celestia did and now I'm a Princess too...don't I want Starlight to reach her full potential?

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>>29874020
>They were just walking by as a group, girls do that. They clearly all knew each other before Twi came to town, as in they were friends, just not CLOSE friends yet.
that sounds like a half assed excuse, when i saw that scene the first thing i thought about was "they fucked up so hard they are now retconning the fucking pilot", even if this is somehow proven to be the intention the fact that I and (i am assuming) other people thought it was a fuck up at first shows this was their mistake, they tried to show A and we saw B because there wasn't enough explanation

>>29875387

Where in the pilot was it stated that the 5 didn't know each other and weren't friends?

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>>29875322
I can't make sense of it. Celestia sent Twilight to make some friends, it was a crazy sequence of events that led to her making them, but when she went there she found friendship.

Starlight already discovered friendship. Do Teachers just send their Pupils away in the hope they'll learn something? Celestia didn't argue the logic chain or put her off it. She seemed to agree with it.

And Celestia didn't send Twilight on an adventure, did she? She sent her to Ponyville to oversee an event and make friends and even then, couldn't that have been done in Canterlot?

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>>29875401
Where in the pilot was it stated that the 5 were friends? Use common sense, Twilight was all about being the "sparkle that started it all", the glue that keeps the group together, the season 5 finale showed the mane 6 not being as close if she wasn't around, season 1 episodes where some of them fight because they are still growing used to each other's differences, i am not saying there is no room for doubt (what happens offscreen is always up for debate) but between they being friends or not the odds are clearly aimed towards the later, personally i think they just knew each other but weren't friends, they surely didn't seemed like back on the pilot

I am betting it was a fuck up from the staff

>>29875507
>i am not saying there is no room for doubt

Thank you. I accept your apology.

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>>29875520
I am sorry, i forgot how important internet arguments are for you anon, you won this round

>>29875466

Consider the following:

We now know that Celestia personally came to make sure five specific ponies were together for the Celebration.

She sent Twilight to meet them all. She knew their cutie marks matched the Tree of Harmony, one and all. She had an agent of SMILE keeping an eye on them (there's Sweetie Drops in the background).

She had it planned all along, but if she had said anything openly, Twilight would have never formed natural bonds with the rest of them. Passing it off as a whimsical choice to use a small town for one of the biggest celebrations in Equestria?

Easy enough as long as nobody else knew. And nobody else but Celestia would. She might not have known exactly what would happen, but that many things coming together, the only logical thing to do was add the final pony to the mix and see what happened.

>>29875541
>agent of SMILE

Can you stop doing this?

>>29875551

It's canon, you retard. No matter how much you sperg out about Slice of Life.

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>>29875541
>She knew their cutie marks matched the Tree of Harmony
What? The Tree of Harmony wasn't linked to the Main 5's marks, was it?

Also that's considering Celestia did plan it all. Even if she did, why would she then agree with Twilight sending Glimmer away? Twilight didn't have a grand plan for Glimmer

>>29875231
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit
Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in fruit salad
Charisma is convincing someone to do it anyway

>>29875733

Because it let her work through Twilight's issues in a way that didn't (uselessly) confront them directly.

The best lessons are the ones a student teaches themselves.

>>29876551
Good point, but to me it seemed like she was agreeing with Twilight as opposed to letting her learn herself
There a slight sad nod Celestia did as Twilight came to the realisation. Sort of like "Yeah, she'll have to leave"

>>29874143
makes sense

Wew another thread with a similar topic. At least people are in here.
>My Pupil is doing well
>Shining brightly, doing better than expected
>That means they need to leave
(?)

>>29875290
Discord planted this stupid idea in her head. She the kind of a girl that would be easily tricked into sucking your dick.

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>>29878532
>"Human semen is an excellent source of protein, but must be consumed straight from the source due to extremely rapid decay caused by exposure to oxygen."
>"Trust me, i'm a doctor, see my coat?"

Discord only mentioned the idea of Starlight's next steps. Not how she should go about it

>>29873556
She sent Twilight basically a day before NMMs return, this was pretty late if she was counting on them becoming friends the actual way, not by bonding in harsh conditions.

>>29875466
Is it that hard to imagine that Twilight has no idea how it actually went down with her and also no clue how it's supposed to be done because it's her first pupil so she overthinks it a lot? She misses the entire point again and Celestia lets her wonder a bit before adding her own experience to the perspective. In the end it's Twilight choice, how she enterprets the advice and if she actually uses it. Because as much as Celestia would like to guide her, Twilight needs to make these decisions on her own now.

>>29879489
I can understand Twilight not being sure of how it all works, but Celestia seemed to agree with her and not just in a "guiding" way

>>29873556
The entire time I thought they'd give Starlight back to her town. I guess she has too many bad memories for it.

>>29880200
Celestia simply trusted Twilight's judgement. Whatever Twilight would do, it would be fine and she would be supportive of her decision.

>>29880200
Maybe Celestia just accepted Twilight's judgement. It's not like Twilight just told Glimmer to fuck off but Celestia's advice did help her accept that Glimmer might go away if she chooses so, even though she hope she wouldn't. I guess for Twilight it was more about letting Glimmer go on her own and not just sending her somewhere as she thought at the start.

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>>29875290
More screen time for best purple pone
Pic related

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>>29880312
>>29880318
But as soon as Twilight realise she was sent away and is about to say Starlight should be sent away, Celestia sighs with sadness, as if to accept that yes, Twilight will have to do the same with Glimmer and send her away
I can understand if Twilight misinterpreted the situation and thought just because she was sent away Starlight should be, but Celestia seemed to be in agreement
Also Starlight and Twilight are quite different scenarios. I still don't understand the logic here
>>29878486

How does a student doing well mean they should leave? Even Celestia had the same plan for Twilight. Why?

bump2

>>29873556

> Where did Twilight

That was what Celestia did.

> Celestia didn't shake her

It wasn't Celestia's choice to make.

> I was of the impression the Mane 5 weren't really close friends before Twilight

They weren't.

Two options:

1. That part of Celestia's flashback was imagined based on her current knowledge. Why would she have been in Ponyville at that time?

2. The 5 knew each other the way all kids in a small town do and occasionally played together, but were never really close.

>>29879451

This. Celestia sent Twilight away at the latest possible time.

>>29882985
>That was what Celestia did.
But for different reasons. Twilight was sent away to discover Friendship, Starlight already has it.
What good would sending Starlight away do?

>It wasn't Celestia's choice to make
True, but Twilight was asking her advice

I thought it was jy

>>29883411
?

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>>29881287
>How does a student doing well mean they should leave? Even Celestia had the same plan for Twilight. Why?
She needs to "leave", if not literally, because her mentor has nothing more to teach her, as simple as that (as far as I can see). The mentor suffers because she has fulfilled her role and cannot help her pupil any further; and the pupil suffers because she is going to have to learn by herself, without express guidance. It's a moment of growth that must occur, a "leaving the nest" kind of situation, and Twilight just had a hard time accepting that. Much like Celestia before her, which is what makes her sympathetic to Twi's predicament.

This is a really good thread.

>>29884703
What makes you say that?

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>>29883411
>>29883546
>>29884703
>>29886145
you people are so fucking stupid

>>29873556
>Why did Twilight get in her head that Starlight had to be sent away?

Because it's what Celestia did and Twilight is obsessed with living up to her example, which she mistakenly took as copying her despite different circumstances.

>>29881287
She would agree with anything Twilight had decided. She's not aware of the full scope of Starlight's progress so she does not know if it was right or not. She even nods when Twilight decides against it.

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>>29886309
>>29886347
>>29874350
>When you were in this place and I was your student
>You....
>Pic related
>Oh no
That's the scene I was talking about, Celestia seemed to accept that that's what should happen, but I get what you're saying.
But aren't the circumstances really completely different? Celestia sent Twilight to find friendship, Starlight has friendship. The sole reason Celestia seemed to send Twilight away was to make friends. And even then, she didn't send Twilight away to Ponyville, she was really only scheduled to be there for a day or two and it was Twilight's decision to stay, wasn't it?

>>29883571
Good point honestly. I get it, but why the focus on literally moving, as in, changing location as opposed to staying in the same place (Canterlot for Twilight, Ponyville for Starlight).
What's more, >>29886468, Twilight was never really sent away, was she? It was only a day or two, but Celestia did seem to pace frantically about where to send her. Wasn't she basically sent nowhere, since Ponyville was just a "visit"?

>>29886468
>But aren't the circumstances really completely different?

Different circumstances doesn't automatically mean different solutions. Celestia was just acknowledging that's what she did in that scene. Besides Twilight wasn't being that logical about it. Discord was the one that put the thought in her head she had to make major plans.

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>>29886347
We're overlooking the most important part of this episode, which was the glimpse into Celestia's personality, a rare look at the private pony, not the ruling Princess. Celestia, as it turns out, is a lot like Twilight Sparkle. A LOT like her, even including her obsession with meticulous planning and freaking out when things don't seem to go according to those well-laid plans.

Celestia trusted Twilight Sparkle to make the right decision because Twilight was showing the same sort of anxiety that Celestia herself had experienced as she watched her student mature. Celestia knew that her plans for Twilight worked out well, so whatever plans Twilight made for Starlight Glimmer would work out just as well.

>>29886498
>Twilight was never really sent away, was she?
Celestia's narration suggests that she was looking for a way to help Twi socialize by all means necessary, and she settled for that Ponyvillean group of friends. That would imply she already knew that Twilight leaving her side at Canterlot permanently was a likely occurrence (especially if she really did plan for the EoH to manifest themselves in the M6 as some people hypothesized).

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>>29886603
>Different circumstances doesn't automatically mean different solutions.
True, bit it also doesn't mean the same solution.

>>29886663
>That would imply she already knew that Twilight leaving her side at Canterlot permanently was a likely occurrence
How much does Celestia know? She does mention she saw the Main 5 as a special group of Ponies, she mentions she sent Twilight to Ponyville to unleash the magic in her, but I think Celestia having the entire plan for Twilight to specifically meet the Main 5 and unite the Elements is a bit of a theory atm. One that makes a lot of sense, but one that could also be disproven.

And who's to say her moving would have actually resulted in her making friends? Sending her away wasn't really a confirmed way for her to socialise. Ponyville has been cited as one of the friendliest places in Equestria, but even then Celestia wasn't sure where to send her. Again, couldn't the release of student to teacher just have happened in Canterlot? Twilight's family does live there, she could have returned home, no? What was with the sort of need to specifically make her change location?

>>29873556
I saw this in the broader scope, especially with the symbolism of "learning to let go". It's more or less a metaphor for moving out and starting your own family. A relevant lesson to bronies but primarily I suspect children with older siblings.

>Celestia said she'd waited too long, but she picked a pretty opportune time given NMM was returning and the Mane 6 were the Elements of Harmony.
I think what Celestia means is that she waited too long before having Twilight make friends, not for NMM's sake but for Twilight's own - Twilight has essentially thrown her entire childhood away by leading a sheltered life with her books. She should have made friends a decade earlier, and in a wider sense learned to stand on her own legs, without Celestia's coddling. The way things turned out now Twilight did pull through in the end, but the events of the pilot and her making friends really came as a complete shock to her, which was unnecessary.

>Twilight found the magic of Friendship is Ponyville, isn't that something Starlight had already done? She had friendship in her, why send her away?
There are other lessons to learn, and everyone must learn in their own way. What Starlight (and Twilight) really must do is let go of each other and prove their independence. As Celestia points out, they can definitely remain friends (Twilight can even make Starlight write letters if she wants to).
It's a bit clumsily done in the episode, but what I take from it is essentially "your older siblings might move out some day (like Starlight does) but they'll still keep in touch and come visit every now and then".

>Also, I was of the impression the Main 5 weren't really close friends before Twilight. The friendship between them grew a whole lot on S1.
Some of them were. Dash and Fluttershy go way back, Dash and Pinkie weren't more than casual acquaintances until Griffon the Brush Off. That scene was mostly a way of compressing a lot of content into a very short amount of time.

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>>29886663
>>29886896
>Celestia having the entire plan for Twilight to specifically meet the Main 5 and unite the Elements is a bit of a theory atm.
There's this from way back as supporting evidence.

In the show, we also see her having a vision of Tirek having escaped from Tartarus. Celestia knowing the mane5 seems pretty confirmed to me at least. Everything seems to point at it.

>>29886631
>a rare look at the private pony, not the ruling Princess. Celestia
Isn't a little... silly to say we've had a look at her a the ruling princess? We don't generally see her acting as an authority or expert. Usually we see her being defeated by the bug queen, or by Tirek, or by clouds. Sometimes she calls Twilight to her castle to directly tell her to do something, but I assume that can only be because Celestia lacks the authority to have someone else relay messages and she needs Twilight to run to the throne room to keep her from putting on pony pudge.

Anyway, point is the show can have Celestia as both a master schemer and a master loser, so it's nonsensical to act like she plans every angle. I think she's making it up as she goes. In fact I'd say this is the episode that reveals Celestia really doesn't have a grip on anything and it's super lucky Twilight has been able to solve so many problems.

>>29887125
I always kinda assumed that she did plan everything. Betting that during NMM's return Mane6 would bond over a dangerous journey seemed like the plan, but if she really just wasn't sending Twilight until it was basically too late to even make friends it's a whole another perspective. Honestly rethinking Celestia's behaviour now with CA in mind is making her shine in a new light. Granted that that wasn't probably how they made her in S1 but I think now it's more interesting this way.
For her to bet everything on her student even knowing she could get hurt or even not become friends with anyone was such a risk for Celestia. She could the only chance for her sister to return. For Celestia to be conflicted about even sending Twilight up until the very end when she had no choice but to do so is groundbreaking. She cares so much. Even if that can be considered a retcon of Celestia's attitude during earlier seasons I still like this.

>>29887330
Meh. It shows her as having a softer personality, and not one who's been at the helm leading for a thousand years. It makes sense to have misgivings about your plans, especially when lives are at stake, but for such things you make redundant plans and back-up plans.

Celestia's kind of a loser if you look at everything we've seen on the whole. Her greatest success was in hiring Twilight Sparkle. Perhaps Celestia's only skill all these years has been the ability to see potential in her subordinates, and aside from that the kingdom rules itself around her.

>>29887553
Her backup plan was probably to just fight NMM if Twilight was to fail. Even not taking CA into account there's little else she could've possibly done.

Celestia is just a victim of the storytelling, getting Worfed time after time. It's such a pity. And for the longest time we haven't even seen this side of her. I want to see even more of her now than ever before. That episode was such a tease, something like this probably won't happen ever again.

>>29887627
She probably would have lost to NMM. At first you can say it's Worfing, but once it happens too often you have to admit it's a pattern and a part of the character. Celestia ALWAYS LOSES. The only victories she enjoys are those won vicariously in her name. With Discord we can give a pass because he was a god. With her sister there's a pass because of the emotional complications. Against Tirek, he drains magic - but here we start to see a big fault because she had the information on him but chose to let things degenerate to that point anyway. Against Chrysalis, we're uncertain, but Celestia definitely lost to her. And finally, she lost to a bad storm - a storm system is a force of nature, but this is a world where nature is fully under control of the ponies, so a storm makes for an especially unlikely and weak villain.

She's a loser. Whenever it comes to her personal ability, she fails.

I think the only way to still have any respect for her is to imagine she's kind of a Lui Bei type of character. Someone charismatic and principled, who lacks any personal skill but is surrounded by energetic and brilliant people who can make up for her shortfalls.

In other words, she's not a schemer. She has ponies for that, but when she tries to scheme for herself she's lucky if ti pays off. She's not a fighter, she has ponies for that, and when she tries to fight for herself we see what Chrysalis did. She's not a weather pony, she has ponies for that, and when she tries to control wild weather herself, we see her fail at that too. She's a weak pony, of soft temperament and mediocre mind, but she's surrounded by subordinates who are magically gifted to solve her problems and meet her needs.

>>29887125
>super lucky
Do you really believe in such luck and coincidences?

>>29887677
What if she loses fights because she's old? And hiding her age through an illusion spell? And the real reason she's looking for new princesses is to get substitutes?

>>29887677
I still believe that losing those fights was a part of her plan for Twilight.

>>29887721
In season 1/2, we used to joke about Tyrant Celestia because we imagined she was a supreme tactician, but over the span of six seasons she only wins battles indirectly. When we see her making plans there on screen, the plans fall apart. Her entire scheme during the season 6 opener with the big storm was, "I'll go outside with my sister and shoot the storm clouds with magic!" You could hire anyone to dream up that kind of brilliance.

What's harder to explain? That Celestia's a genius by she always fails because of unlucky circumstance? Or that she got lucky once and failed every time thereafter?

Or even more probable, Celestia has a pony that suggested the Twilight plan to her, and Celestia took it. Celestia probably even argued against it, citing danger and the other reasons she gives in season 7 for not wanting Twilight to go. If another pony invented the NMM gambit, then everything makes sense. Celestia is still a failure and it's true that she didn't want to send Twilight to Ponyville, but someone infinitely smarter than her insisted.

>>29887677
>She probably would have lost to NMM
She probably knew that as well. But that can be said about Discord as well. And against Tirek there was literally nothing that could've been done. Twilight was her only hope day one. And she raised her good.

Celestia winning is completely out of question. Be it a powerup, discovery of a new power or just a good old rainbow blast Celestia has to relegate that spotlight. She isn't allowed to win by story's rules, that's for the main characters to do.

Twilight being prepared as a successor isn't completely out of question either. Now that show deals with "destiny" it can be brought up at any moment. I am ok with Celestia not really being powerful. She has another very important role, as you said. She is the leader, the mentor, the guide and that's ok with me.

>>29874143
>>29874246
>>29874286
Remember that Celestia is mildly precognizant. She doesn't know exact details - didn't know exactly how Twilight would encounter the other Element-bearers - but she knows which routes lead to the best possible outcomes and arranges things to go down that way. We explicitly know that Celestia "orchestrated" the events leading to Luna's successful recovery from Nightmare.

So yes, it's entirely possible Twilight was sent to Ponyville with a list of the ponies who Celestia knew could bear elements; from then forward, she trusted fate and Twilight to do the rest.

>>29887773
NMM was an inevitability and it's hard to imagine Celestia wasn't preparing for it as hard as she can. Twilight was the most perfect subject for that. If anything, CA highlighted that trust she had in Twilight's abilities because of how close she was to her.

>>29887796
>She is the leader, the mentor, the guide and that's ok with me.
I'm saying that she signs the papers her lawmakers bring to her desk, she let other ponies teach Twilight her practical knowledge while Twilight interprets her vague wisdom to fit the moment's needs, and sometimes she guides Twilight by telling her where the problems are.

>against Tirek there was literally nothing that could've been done.
Yes, for very mediocre minds that have no imagination - which describes the princesses - what can be done if a frontal assault won't work? It's not like they could lay a trap or come up with a plan that might work without expecting a deus ex machina to kick in.

>>29887852
>it's hard to imagine Celestia wasn't preparing for it as hard as she can.
Imagine she is a very stupid pony, and the only pony trying to prepare for NMM was an advisor who was fired from his job for being so sure that Luna wouldn't have reformed by the time she got back.

>>29887773
>I'll go outside with my sister and shoot the storm clouds with magic!
Maybe she wanted to remove herself and sister from Twilight's group so that they can act independently, as usual.
>someone infinitely smarter than
Are you some kind of a hater?

>>29887955
>Are you some kind of a hater?
No. I just think there are two Celestias that are plausible after all we've seen in every season.

1. Celestia has planned to fail at virtually every counter to intentionally bring out Twilight's full potential. These planned failures are EXTREMELY risky, but Celestia goes through them anyway for reasons the audience cannot see.

2. Celestia is actually very incompetent and fails frequently because she is not talented. In some cases she is lucky, but in most events, she is not.

I've just given up on #1 being possible. It's been numerous years of her being a total screw-up. At this point I don't understand why viewers would still believe she's on top of anything.

>>29887854
Twilight was literally that trap. It's not deus ex machina, it's how magic works, otherwise you can dismiss every figth as deus ex machina because friendship is magic and it always prevails despite all odds. That's just how it is.

>>29887878
Now you're reaching too far. There's nothing to suggest she wasn't preparing for it, she knew for sure NMM is going to return.

>>29888012
>lucky
You can't have SO MUCH luck that everything works out somehow and all of those "coincidences" in the past just happened for whatever reasons. It's unbelievable.

>>29874558
This show has had a pony say verbatim "You can't force ponies to be friends with each other." Celestia couldn't just say "hey youre all magic now be friends so you can use friendship magic" she had to set it up so their friendship would come naturally.

>>29878635
I've always wanted to write a story with that idea. Human cum is a huge source of magical replenishment for unicorns. So naturally powerful unicorns grow to love it.

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>>29886903
I get the point of letting your student go as being the next step of their studies, it's been made itt and it makes sense, but why have her move? As in, go away? Surely she could stay in Ponyville while Twilight just doesn't oversee her as much and give her friendship lessons.

>>29886942
Even if she did know, I don't think it's really a guarantee that Twilight would make friends in Ponyville. So why move her away rather than keep her in Canterlot?

Celestia wanted Twilight to move as the next step of her studies and to make friends. Twilight wanted Starlight to move as the next step of her studies and broaden her horizons. They both felt they taught enough. I get that now. But why move? What can be done elsewhere that can't at home?

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>>29888164
>Twilight was literally that trap.
Not him but the whole Tirek thing, was Twilight really the trap? I never really understood the plan there.
Twilight received all the magic, but Celestia also told Twilight not to tell her friends about the Alicorn Magic, despite Friendship being Magic. Did Celestia then hope that Twilight would be able to beat Tirek through sheer force? She knew Discord was with Tirek, so even if that large glass pane window of Twilight ascending didn't give it away, he would have, or even could have already before they gave their magic away. Tirek not knowing of Twilight is largely a moot point, because it's inevitable he'd find out if Discord is by his side.
So what was the plan? Buy time and hope Twilight finds a way?

>>29888972
>Buy time and hope Twilight finds a way?
Isn't that almost always the plan?

>>29873556
I got more of a vibe that tCelestia was just trolling Twilight in this episode much like Discord was.

>>29888986
When the Elements of Harmony were a thing, sure it was often the plan.
They didn't have them though. Hope, really, was lost. There wasn't a very clear path to victory at all and this was their plan for the looming threat of Tirek they knew was coming. A lot of the other villains came along instantly, Tirek took his time.
The Box did save them in the end, it contained the key to amplify their Friendship, much like the Elements of Harmony, but I'm not sure Celestia knew what was in the box, or when or even how it would be opened

>>29888939
If not for the timing, I'd agree that it might be "just the next step in her studies".

But no, when you send your student to the place with five other ponies you know are intertwined by destiny at the exact time that a prophecy explicitely states your insane sister is going to be coming back - that's not "just the next step". Celestia knew exactly what she was doing, and held off until the precise time in which Twilight's horizons needed to expand.

>So why move her away rather than keep her in Canterlot?
Presumably because Celestia knew - by her precognizant gift, or just by simple logic - that displacing five other ponies was not the path that lead to success. It was Twilight who needed to learn the magic of friendship, not the other 5 who needed to learn their elements. They already clearly embodied them.

>>29889088
But even if you think Celestia was attempting to set the wheels in motion for her to meet the Elements of Harmony, there's no guarantee she would have gotten along and become friends with them, is there? I still think Celestia planning it all isn't really confirmed yet. I think it could be disproven. And if it is, then why send Twilight away rather than keeping her at Canterlot?
Remember, Celestia was uhming and ahhing over where to send her. It wasn't like she Ponyville and only Ponyville in mind for the 5.

And on that front, what about Starlight then? What would be the purpose of sending Starlight away?

>>29874508
>She probably could handle the NMM incident all by herself
She would have gotten beat again. Celly had to use the EoH to beat NMM.
And if memory serves me, she cannot use them again, that's why the new bearers were needed.

If Celly didn't set this up, NMM would have taken over again. But she's got a tad of that precognition, so she sent Twi to meet the other 5.
Having her be social was just a plus. And it worked well.

>>29888939
>I don't think it's really a guarantee that Twilight would make friends in Ponyville.
Twilight has always been a great student, one we learn is never tardy, and the very thought that she might fail to deliver on time gives her a mental breakdown. If Celestia tells her "go make some friends" you can bet your ass on it Twilight is going to go make some friends, even if she thinks she's got more pressing matter to attend to.

>>29889543
>I think it could be disproven.
So show us some evidence then. Or tell us where we can find it.

>>29890530
I'm not saying I have any, just that it's not yet a concrete fact to us that Celestia had it all planned. It'd make a lot of sense though.

>>29890522
I'd imagine Celestia was urging her or at least pushing her to make some proper friends in Canterlot too yet it wasn't really happening. Her concern was she wasn't socialising enough, surely she'd try getting her to before literally sending her away to do it
And if she wasn't doing it in Canterlot, she might not have in Ponyville. She genuinely had no interest in making friends
>>29888939
>Surely she could stay in Ponyville
Meant Canterlot

>>29889543
>there's no guarantee she would have gotten along and become friends with them, is there?
Destiny is a thing in MLP, remember their bonds go much deeper than mere friendship. They all earned their cutie marks within seconds of each using Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom as a catalyst, barring Twilight (who was pushed) they were all drawn to Ponyville despite having lived in such far-away places as Cloudsdale and Manehattan.

>Remember, Celestia was uhming and ahhing over where to send her. It wasn't like she Ponyville and only Ponyville in mind for the 5.
There are two separate goals to consider here.
One is that Twilight needed to make friends so she eventually could achieve what Starswirl failed to do, as understanding of friendship is vital for a deeper understanding of magic. This is what Celestia was uhmming and aahing over. She considered among other things to close the library for a time (which would fuck up students and scholars all over Canterlot), and she considered sending her far away but decided against it because of personal reasons. These are things that should have happened a decade before the show started.
Two is that Twilight had to fulfill her destiny as an element-bearer, Celestia only sends her away on the very last day, which is much too late and making friends came as a shock for Twilight.

>What would be the purpose of sending Starlight away?
Test her independence. Note that she's not sent away.

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>>29890574
Destiny created the link between them, but even then, there was no guarantee on Celestia's end that Twilight would become friends with the 5. It being her plan or not.

>she considered sending her far away but decided against it because of personal reasons
Personal reasons? Wouldn't sending her far away keep her away from the elements? If it was the plan for her to meet the 5, why would she consider not sending her to Ponyville?

>Test her independence
Couldn't that be done in Ponyville? It's seen as the next stage for the pupil and tutor, to leave them more to their own vices, but why does that require moving? Both for Starlight and Twi


It is a good reminder that you brought up Celestia considered closing the library though. If anything I think it suggests she did consider keeping Twilight in Canterlot, rather than just sending her away which is something I wasn't understanding. Why fixate on moving her location to make some friends? She could do that anywhere, including Canterlot (Assuming Celestia didn't have a grand plan). But I suppose the dialogue about closing the library does suggest she thought about it.

>>29890691
>Wouldn't sending her far away keep her away from the elements?
These are events in the past, that Celestia procrastinated on for a very long time. Nothing's stopping Twilight from spending a year in Manehattan when she's 15 and going to Ponyville when she's 20 and knows how to socialize.

>Couldn't that be done in Ponyville?
It IS being done in Ponyville, Twilight wisened up.

>>29890712
>spending a year in Manehattan
She'd be being sent with the intent that Celestia didn't have much more to teach her (not in the same way, anyway) and to learn how to make friends to progress her studies. Letting her do that elsewhere and then tearing her away doesn't sound the best of ideas.

>>29890712
>It IS being done in Ponyville
Yeah, but why did Twilight think different in the first place? Even Celestia didn't move her off the line of thinking, though I guess she was letting Twilight make the decision as opposed to guiding her fullly as has been mentioned above

>>29890726
>Letting her do that elsewhere and then tearing her away doesn't sound the best of ideas.
A normal person is being "torn" away from friends many times throughout their lives. It's a normal part of growing up to grow distant from old friends from school, lose contact with old friends from your old workplace, grow more distant from your parents as you build your own family on the other side of the city or even country, etc.

>Yeah, but why did Twilight think different in the first place?
Because she's autistic and Discord is a troll.

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Celestia needed or was forced by destiny to send Twilight to ponyville. The same shouldn't apply to Starlight because she's in a different situation and thus the narrative of "Starlight needs to leave" is fabricated.

The writers are trying to split Starlight(And her friends) away from Twilight(And the mane 5).

I think they will send Starlight away so as to allow them to ignore the mane 6. This would allow Starlight's(And her friends) growth and progress without needing the constant checking on with the mane 6 like what we saw in "All bottled Up".

We will probably be seeing episodes completely following a Starlight plotline that are intertwined with mane 6 and CMC filler, to allow for slice of life and plot.

>>29873587
Discord is great.

Starlight should be sent away because she is the worst.
I was so fucking happy when Twi started freaking out. I thought she'd be sent back to her own crappy town and become a old recurring character.

Least we get more Trixie. But she's gonna up her snark levels to Twilight. She's losing her charm.

I'm falling for Celestia though.

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>>29890749
>A normal person is being "torn" away from friends many times throughout their lives
Celestia struggled to send Twilight anyway in the first place. Letting her settle somewhere else and then changing it just doesn't seem like it wouldn't work out at all. Twilight felt the spark of Friendship so strongly that 2 days in Ponyville is all she needed to move there.
So still if Celestia did have a plan, why consider anywhere else but Ponyville?

And with regards to Celestia and her plan, it makes more and more sense desu. Had she not had one Equestria would be doomed to NMM and she even specifically tells Twilight "I knew you could do it" right after NMM is defeated. Actually, I think she even goes as far as saying she knew Twilight had the Magic in her, so she must have known Twilight was the Element of Magic.

Which to me, raises another question. How did she know? She did say she'd never seen anyone with Twilight's raw ability, but I mean look at Starlight, she seems to go toe to toe with Alicorn Twilight Sparkle.

>and Discord is a troll
The thing with this is though it seems like a bizarre proposition to me that Starlight even had to move. Like one of those "Where did you even get that idea?", yet Celestia didn't ever say as such or anything
There seemed to be more focus in the act of moving as opposed to advancing on studies by giving the pupil independence, which is something I'm still not really getting

>>29890793
I understood that reference.

Also I'm headed to sleep hope the thread stays up 2bh someone keep it up

>>29890968
>look at Starlight, she seems to go toe to toe with Alicorn Twilight Sparkle.
In their encounters, Starlight is constantly struggling to keep up. Starlight doesn't stand a chance if she's going toe to toe so she doesn't even try.
Starlight even expresses how she's studied years to learn the spells she uses, while Twilight can pick up and master new spell simply by looking (and if this episode was anything to go by, creates new spells on the spot).

When it comes to raw ability, Starlight is good, well above average (remember, even Trixie is considered exceptional), but she's nowhere even close to Twilight, alicorn or otherwise (which seemingly hasn't given her any noticeable power boost, alicorn magic is different from unicorn magic).

>>29890793
Twilight enterprets that "sengind away" thing too literally. It's just cutting your student loose, it's just in her case it was sending to another location and so she doesn't know better. That's all there is to it really.

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>>29890968
Celestia must have been preparing for NMM's return as it was a common knowledge/legend when exactly this is going to happen. She must have planned for Twilight to do it right from the start, even the whole personal academy for gifter unicorns was probably set up so she could find someone suitable for this role.
But with this in mind, was she really just afraid that Twilight wouldn't need her anymore? Was she that lonely and desperate? I mean I can believe that easily but it goes against those preparations. Twilight already had friends, maybe not very close ones but who's to say that M5 would become closer? I don't think it was even shown that they were best friends before Twilgiht came until now. Those things need time to bloom. Even something like pushing Twilight onto her already established group would've made sense, as she was thinking about closing the library and so on.
Postoponing Twilight's departure until the day before NMMs return is insane. She worried so much that Twilight would get in danger but she herself left no choice for Twilight but to get in danger. Still, it just shows how much Celestia trusted in Twilight. It's really endearing seeing her emotional connection to her.

>>29889543
>>29891479
>Celestia was uhming and ahhing over where to send her
She knew where to send her and what will happen but she still loves Twilight like a daughter and of course is nervous as hell - there will be a lot of dangers waiting, she even says it.
In the end she didn't had a choice - Twilight must have become an element of magic, for greater goals, so she sent her.

>>29889052
>Hope, really, was lost.
No it wasn't. Celestia proclaimed that all hope was lost and then she gave up, even though the alicorns could teleport and hide instead of staying in the big, obvious, fuck-off castle Tirek would come to.

It's actually really frustrating if you think about it. Did they not have a single pony with a cutiemark for planning? When Celestia said, "We know right where Tirek is going to go and best off all, it's our home turf. We still have our magic now, and if the trap fails, we don't need to stay here. We'd better give up all our magic to Twilight and stay here," was there nobody to step forward to say, "That's retarded and you are the worst leader?"

Celestia didn't make any moves at all. She wasn't playing chess. She wasn't playing checkers. She was absent from the table and allowing the judge to call a forfeit via no-show. The ponies really deserved to lose against Tirek.

>>29891806
You're just blinded by your hate.

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>>29891934
I'd say it's better than being blinded by stupidity, but they say ignorance is bliss, so maybe I'd enjoy the show more if I was this stupid.

>>29891029
Mate who doesn't

BEST FRIENDS
UNTIL THE END OF TIME

>>29893149
WE'VE GOT EACH OTHER'S BACK

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>>29891185
>Starlight is constantly struggling to keep up.
>Twilight can pick up and master new spell simply by looking (and if this episode was anything to go by, creates new spells on the spot).
Caps? Need my memory jogged. I recall the S5 Opener, where Twilight had a defence spell that took Starlight back.
In the S5 finale, Twilight herself proclaims she couldn't beat Starlight with her magic, Starlight had to be talked down instead.
In S6, there's Every Little Thing She Does, where in the opening Twilight and Starlight have a little spar, after which Twilight seems a bit tired though it was pretty early iirc. In the same episode Starlight even comes up with new new ways of using spells.

Of course, Twilight is the teacher and Starlight is the pupil, but I can't recall an instance where Starlight is seen as not being able to keep up and so not trying.

>>29891439
If it is far too literal, couldn't Celestia have sort of shook her from the idea?

>>29891479
>it was a common knowledge/legend
Not at all actually. Nopony seemed to know. Celestia did because she was there. I don't think Twilight's first group of friends was Celestia planning for the EoH. They were her classmates, back then would have been far too early to put things in motion. And if that was the case, it'd suggest Celestia was making more guesses with regards to the EoH as opposed to a concrete plan. Celestia specifically mentions she knew of 5 special Ponies in Ponyville.
But on that front, do you think Celestia knew the effect the Elements of Harmony would have on NMM?

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>>29890968
>>29891638
>>29893355
Also hit character limit. Cont.

I'm still a bit confused as to why Celestia would consider anywhere but Ponyville had she the knowledge of the Elements in mind. Had she not known, then it makes it more of a "One option out of many was finally chosen" deal. But had she known, Ponyville was surely the only option

>>29891806
Half the Ponies had their magic trained from them. Look, this was Discord and Tirek they were going up against. Discord reigned over Equestria for literal years with no one to oppose him. Then add Tirek to the mix. If back then the only thing that worked against Discord was the EoH, what possible plan would Equestria have now?
But even then thinking about the EoH, Celestia did tell Twilight specifically not to tell her friends about her new power or the situation. Surely that wasn't the best advice when Twilight's magic and the Elements, even if they were lost were often the key to victory. If Twilight didn't tell her friends, what was the plan? Brute forcing Tirek?

>>29893355
Everyone knows who's NMM is though, as there's a holiday in her name. But only Celestia and later Twilight knew about her soon escape. Celestia had to guess a lot about the Elements of course but she knew that she has to find some amount of ponies as I think only she could use all the elements at least to some extent.
Ponyville was the only option at the time because the Celebration was just a day away. Had Twilight made close friends with her Canterlot friends I would imagine she could just send them as a team. Twilight was friends with her classmates but I don't think it was THAT kind of friendship, Celestia seen how tight of a group the M5 already is and probably thought that this is where Twilight shuld be. Now the problem is that going by previous information they weren't already best friends at the time. Sure they were a group probably but not as close as they became. Secondly, Celestia's plan doesn't add up with it if she specifically targeted Twilight as a possible Element of Magic - Twilight thought that the elements were in the Castle of Two Sisters so there was no reason to not send her to Ponyville or let her stay in Canterlot. I want to write it off as a lazy retcon and just say that they didn't watch the show again but it just doesn't sit well with me. I want to see a compromise.

>>29893392
How did they trick Tirek in the first place? How did they keep him imprisoned? If he can drain magic from any creature or any thing, then what did they do before to keep him from draining magic? How did they drain him of magic?

I can't recall if any of this was brought up in the episode. Discord is there as a legit threat, but he's a total wild card anyway and how long would he stay teamed up with Tirek if they'd tried biding their time? Until Discord got bored or until Tirek got hungry.

As far as the brute force option, Twilight was able to fight Tirek to stalemate with the combined alicorn powers, and as I recall that was after Tirek drained Discord.

The show didn't explore any options or much of the history. I think Tirek's original defeat was very vague.

I'm not saying he should have been easy to deal with. Obviously not. I'm saying that Celestia's "Plan A" was to give up her magic, her throne, and her authority and let Twilight deal with it. You CAN'T paint this character as a master schemer. If your first line of action is abdicating the throne, then WHY ARE YOU ON THE FUCKING THRONE?

>>29893355
>I can't recall an instance where Starlight is seen as not being able to keep up and so not trying.
In her initial appearance her immediate reaction is to run away when things turn south. Fair enough, she had a town against her.
We see her throughout the season, watching, waiting and preparing. If she was confident she could have fought Twilight, she could have chosen to do so at any time rather than go through with the convoluted time-distortion "I'll ruin your friendship instead" plan.
When she does go through with the time-distortion plan, and Twilight fights her in the distorted past, she avoids trading blows and goes for interrupting RD instead.
THAT is what Twilight can't stop, for Twilight to win she'd have to protect herself (easy), break down Starlight (takes some time, each hit throws Starlight backwards even when she's put her shield up) while also protecting Dash and accounting for every other factor imaginable, like not being too flashy, disrupting the race, etc. which is too much for Twilight.

>>29893472
>How did they trick Tirek in the first place?
Scorpan warned them.
>How did they keep him imprisoned?
Iron chains.

>>29893355
>do you think Celestia knew the effect the Elements of Harmony would have on NMM?
Good point. I think she didn't, actually, nobody knows what element going to do when you're using them.
Why she don't use them now? She literally hates them for sending her sister to the fucking moon for thousand years, she lost her connection to them.
But they needed a new hosts - rainbow boom happens, 5 special ponies somehow gather and grow up in unknown town in middle of nowhere then meet 6th and suddenly in this exact moment NMM is back, right on the schedule.
What a coincidence.
And who made Twilight an alicorn? Literally - elements.
Elements of harmony is secret last boss of mlp.

>>29893450
Celestia refers to the ponies in Ponyville as "five special ponies". Special in that they embody elements, not special in that they're already great friends.

>Celestia's plan doesn't add up with it if she specifically targeted Twilight as a possible Element of Magic - Twilight thought that the elements were in the Castle of Two Sisters so there was no reason to not send her to Ponyville or let her stay in Canterlot.
She was sent to Ponyville according to Celestia's plans. What part of it can't you get to add up? What even would the retcon be?

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>>29893489
>Scorpan warned them.
This is what people call "cognitive dissonance". I tell you:
Celestia knew that Tirek was coming and she knew where he was coming. In fact, his only real ability was to come, because that's all he does. He comes to you and he drains your magic. He has ONE thing. It's a very powerful thing, but it's INSANELY predictable. You reply:

>"Oh, anon, gee, I don't know. Celestia said it was impossible, so it must have been impossible"

So then I ask:
How did they defeat Tirek the first time? You reply:

>Scorpan warned them

Oh? So having some kind of advance notice about your highly predictable foe with a singular motive is some kind of advantage? You don't say, anon! Never mind how vague it is to say "Scorpan warned them" only to stick your thumb up your ass like you've explained something and have nothing else to do.

The only problem here is Discord, who isn't so predictable, but again, all you have to do is wait. Avoid Tirek and wait. Discord will betray him eventually or vice versa. That much should be pretty obvious.

>>29893472
>How did they trick Tirek in the first place?
Celestia had nothing to do with this, actually it was Starswirl and Scorpan that defeated Tirek and imprisoned him.

>>29893530
>Oh? So having some kind of advance notice about your highly predictable foe with a singular motive is some kind of advantage?
Yes.
If he can be stopped before he starts draining magic he's very easy to stop. He needs magic to drain more magic, Discord for example was initially too strong for him to drain, and he had to start small.
It's quite likely he spilled his plans to his own brother before going on a rampage, and his first magic-eating spree could be nipped in the bud.

>>29893551
How did THEY do it? If you really need this obvious of a train of breadcrumbs to come to the obvious conclusion that GIVING UP was not the best STARTING plan, then it's no wonder you're not seeing Celestia's painful shortfalls in the whole scenario.

History is full of stories about clever heroes outfoxing what appears to be a significantly stronger foe. Real things that actually happened. Armies routing forces ten times their size with daring and risky strategies. Nobody ever delights in the story of how the nation's leader abandoned the throne and surrendered as soon as she caught wind of the enemy.

Again, I really need to emphasize this. Celestia's FIRST strategy was to quit. Giving up on your job CANNOT be the "plan A" for a real leader. I mean holy shit.

>>29893573
You think they stopped Tirek before the first time he ever started feeding on magic? What'd they do, imprison him just after he was weaned off his mother's milk?

Really. An enemy with one power, whose plan is "walk directly towards my opponent so I can eat their magic" had absolutely no counter-attack once he even gains modest momentum.

>>29893585
>no wonder
I wonder why are you still here talking to me.

>>29893518
I don't remember M5 actually being close together in any flashback other than this one. Now we know it was "destiny" but at that time it wasn't, just an assisted coincidence. Later it was revealed that they were connected by that one Rainboom but it still wasn't a factor.

Celestia worrying about Twilight and NMM at the same time doesn't add up with her actions. Sending Twilight with just a day to know these ponies spelled disaster. She could lose both Twilight and her sister, and possibly even Elements. But what was special about these ponies? The Elements weren't attuned to them or something. Why couldn't it be any other ponies? Without getting close to M5 how could she know that they represented the elements? AJ was an outright lier in her teens for example, just learning that would be alarming. But if Celestia was already sure that M5 was the ponies Twilight needed why even consider any other options?

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>>29893607
Is Ponychan still a thing? If it is, go there. You clearly don't belong on a Malaysian tickle-fetish board where people are allowed to criticize a show aimed at five year-old girls if you can't fathom why somebody would bother to disagree with you on said board.

>>29893595
That wasn't his plan. Not back then. At the very least he stopped to discuss things with his brother while his brother even had the time to start appreciating the Equestrian way.

>Princess Celestia: [narrating] Tirek and his brother Scorpan came here from a distant land, intent on stealing Equestrian magic. But Scorpan soon came to appreciate the ways of Equestria, even befriending a young unicorn wizard.
>Princess Luna: [narrating] Scorpan urged his brother to abandon their plans. When Tirek refused, Scorpan alerted us to Tirek's intentions.
>Princess Celestia: [narrating] Scorpan returned to his own land, and Tirek was sent to Tartarus for his crimes. But it appears he has found a way to escape.

>>29893676
It sounds like his plan was to walk directly towards Equestria and eat its magic. They don't say how he was stopped, then, just that he was stopped. Hundreds of years later, the difference is that Celestia doesn't have the same competent advisors as last time, so she instantly gives up and coerces everyone with power or authority to vest all that in Twilight.

The point at the end of the day, and how it relates to this whole thread, is that it's another count that demonstrates Celestia as being very poor at making plans, agonizingly bad at operating under pressure, and not an especially aspiring leader. Imagine how demoralizing it must have been for all the ponies who thought she'd devise a strategy to save them. Heck, it was demoralizing for Twilight and she was the one who inherited all the power.

There's really not an excuse here. Celestia didn't act as a leader. She keeps losing, and losing, and losing season after season. In season 7, she explains to the viewer that she didn't even want to send Twilight away because she wanted to coddle Twilight instead, which implies it was a stroke of luck things turned around and Twilight beat NMM.

Then if you look at all the alternate timelines in season 5, it's clear Celestia has only ever had one plan: let Twilight do it. Without a Twilight, there's only Celestia, and her losses are worse and worse in every timeline.

>>29893643
Why are you so angry? Take it easy, it's just a fucking cartoon for little kids.
And by the way, other people may have different opinions from yours.

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Bloody hell typed a response and accidentally pressed Esc and lost the whole thing. Here I go again.
>>29893585
>Celestia's FIRST strategy was to quit
No, her first strategy was capturing Tirek. Discord did it. Ez pz.
When he was weak, he wasn't a big issue. The first time round, Scorpan informed the Princesses of Tirek's betrayal. I imagine they didn't have to go searching for him, Scorpan told them exactly where he was and he was defeated promptly. This time Discord was sent because he could detect the magical imbalances. (Wonder how the Princesses knew that desu.)
However, after Discord turned, they literally had no idea where he was or how powerful he'd gotten. The word did get out, but by the time it reached them Tirek would have moved on. Had they gone to try and search and approach him, they faced defeat and losing their Alicorn magic, making Tirek far, far, far stronger and making the entire situation worse.

Putting all the Magic into Twilight evens the odds. But I still wonder what Celestia's plan was. Twilight has prevailed, multiple times through the magic of friendship and her bond with her friends. But Celestia specifically told her not to tell her friends and Twilight was largely alone, wasn't she?
So what was the plan? Try to brute force Tirek? I suppose they weren't counting on Tirek to drain Discord's magic, so had he not done that perhaps she would have easily defeated him. But was that the plan? Battle?

>>29893619
>I don't remember M5 actually being close together in any flashback other than this one.
They were young adults living in the same small town. So small in fact it's got a single-classroom school.
Them being close together on occasion should be a given.

>Sending Twilight with just a day to know these ponies spelled disaster. She could lose both Twilight and her sister, and possibly even Elements.
She sent her too late for comfort, but not sending her at all would guarantee she'd lose everything. Turns out there was no disaster, and there's nothing like hardship to bring people together.

>But what was special about these ponies? The Elements weren't attuned to them or something.
They embody the elements. The elements were within them all along. That's why it couldn't be any other ponies, and that's why they failed to use the elements in Return of Harmony against Discord.

>Without getting close to M5 how could she know that they represented the elements?
She's got limited precognition, has LIVED the history foretelling NMM's return and has used the elements herself, and has an entire empire's worth of ponies behind her, including informants and advisers.

>But if Celestia was already sure that M5 was the ponies Twilight needed why even consider any other options?
When the day came and she had to be sent to Ponyville, Celestia no longer considered options, she HAD to be sent to Ponyville right then and there.
What Celestia considered as other options was having Twilight go as an au pair to Manehattan at the age of 15, shut down the library so that she'd be forced to socialize when Twilight was 10, and such options.
Other options that would have helped expand Twilight's horizons and help prepare her for her destiny long before the fact.

>>29893718
>So what was the plan?
All this affair was meant for Twilight to grow up and move forward. She had to face Tirek alone at some point and then open up her inner friendship to defeat him with her friends.

>>29893704
>But Scorpan soon came to appreciate the ways of Equestria, even befriending a young unicorn wizard.
>Scorpan urged his brother to abandon their plans. When Tirek refused, Scorpan alerted us to Tirek's intentions.
Scorpan had enough time to befriend a young unicorn wizard. His plan didn't involve a direct walk unless he walked very, very slowly.

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>>29893752
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
>She had to face Tirek alone at some point
Why?
>open up her inner friendship to defeat him with her friends
Sure that's what happened, but only through the help of the Box. Did Celestia know what was in there, and when it would open? Twilight succeeds because of her friends but she was away from them. What was the plan?

Celestia needs to laugh more.

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>>29893474
I don't see any of that as Starlight not being able to keep up.
>If she was confident she could have fought Twilight, she would have chosen to do so
I don't think so. Defeating Twilight isn't what she wanted. She carefully formulated her plan to mess with Twilight as best as she could, as revenge. She might not have been confident in her abilities to fight her (not to mention she'd be outmatched since Twilight has a lot of support), but that doesn't automatically mean she couldn't.

>she avoids trading blows
They do trade a lot of battle magic with no victor. There's even a point where both of them look exhausted and Starlight lazily throws an attack beam that Twilight easily defends. Webm related is a fight anon. I suppose you could say Starlight may be better versed in battle magic specifically, or that Twilight was weaker since her connection to her friends had sort of been interrupted, but none of them are confirmed.
I watched back the scene in Every Little Thing She Does, and even though it was sparring I reckon Twilight was testing her more than anything, since she is the Teacher. That doesn't change the fact Starlight had combined spells Twilight hadn't even seen before. She's really, really, really, good with magic.
I think Twilight did become more powerful when she became an Alicorn, though I can't point to a specific example atm. Starlight was going with her pretty competitively, not to mention she was holding a levitation spell as well whilst Twilight was flying. She's crazy good with magic.

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>>29893782
>>29893472
>As far as the brute force option, Twilight was able to fight Tirek to stalemate with the combined alicorn powers, and as I recall that was after Tirek drained Discord.
But was that the plan? Keep Tirek at a stalemate, or what? Friendship prevails in Equestria, what was Celestia hoping would happen by transferring their magic on to Twilight? She fights him or she finds a way? If it was the latter, why advise her against going to her friends?

>>29893782
>Did Celestia know what was in there, and when it would open?
In S04E02 about keys for the box she said: "I do not know where they are. But I do know that it is a mystery you will not be solving alone." Implying she knew what's inside and more.

>>29893870
>what was Celestia hoping would happen by transferring their magic on to Twilight?
She fights him and understand that magic is useless, so she can use advanced tactical friendship attack.

>>29893878
I don't think that's a very strong implication. It was connected to the Tree of Harmony, which is linked to the Elements of Harmony, it was surely going to be tied to the 6.
And even if she knew what was inside, did she know exactly when it would open? And how it was what Twilight needed to defeat Tirek? I'm not sure of that, not enough evidence

>>29893748
>limited precognition
Debatable. I don't think anything indicates that. Nowhere was it stated that she even talked with M5 even once before NMM defeat. How would anyone even report on them? "Today Rainbow Dash did something loyal" or something? Anyone can be loyal or honest or anything. It's the friend in need situations that highlight the Elements.
>They embody the elements
After the fact, yes. But they only represented them before the thing happened. If they were embodiment of the Elements all along there was no reason to not send Twilight sooner as the outcome would be basically set in stone - as well as Twilight being the Element of Magic. Removing an element ruins the whole thing because at RoH it was already set, but what if it was another pony altogether right from the start?

Let's say she went through closing the library. Twilight laments the fact along with Moondancer and ends up socializing with her classmates, forming a strong bond. In that case, does Celestia still send her away alone to find M5? What about after that, what if Twilight wants to go back to her group of childhood friends she's now so close with? That sounds kinda sad and being "the chosen ones" diminishes the importance of m6 friendship, like they became friends by destiny, not because they liked each other despite differences.

>>29893893
>so she can use advanced tactical friendship attack.
Celestia did tell her not to tell her friends though. If Magic was useless against Tirek, Celestia would've encouraged her to seek her friends, no?

>>29893922
Sometimes you must learn from your own mistakes, whole life Twilight was thinking that magic is absolute power, that was her lesson - friendship is an absolute power.

>>29893960
Twilight knew about Friendship being an absolute power for a while now. She literally ascended to Alicorn status through the magic of friendship. She wanted to tell her friends, she loves them and at that point they'd done great things together. She literally learnt the magic of friendship in S1E2.
And even then, if you think Celestia was teaching Twilight a lesson, you're saying Celestia knew exactly how events would pan out too

>>29894011
>Celestia knew exactly how events would pan out too
Exactly, or EoH themselves have some sort of influence on reality around them or probably on even greater scale.

https://twitter.com/Fyre_flye/status/330504241749848064
Reminder that Faust herself said the mane 5 were already friends when Twilight showed up
>but she doesn't work on the show anymore!
Yes, but she did work on S1, which is what is being allegedly contradicted.

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>>29894032
So you think Celestia knows the future?

If not, I don't understand telling Twilight not to tell her friends when her Friendship is the key. Celestia knowing the future is a theory. I'm trying to understand what her plan was by giving Twilight all the Alicorn magic. If it was a last ditch attempt in the hope Twilight would find a way, being the Element of Magic, why advise her against telling her friends?

>>29894043
>Faust herself said
She also said >>29886942

>>29875387
They showed all of them together because it was a quick and simple way to get the point across, not because they were all friends already at that point. If it helps, it's Celestia's imagination of a summary and there is no wrong way to fantasize.

>>29894050
>Celestia knows the future
I believe that she knows how certain events will turn out and she's manipulating things around to have a "best good ending".

>>29894077
It's a theory though.

>I don't understand telling Twilight not to tell her friends when her Friendship is the key. Celestia knowing the future is a theory. I'm trying to understand what her plan was by giving Twilight all the Alicorn magic. If it was a last ditch attempt in the hope Twilight would find a way, being the Element of Magic, why advise her against telling her friends?
The point still stands

>>29893910
>Debatable. I don't think anything indicates that.
Aside from all the circumstantial evidence and Word of God, she literally has a precognitive vision of Tirek escaping from Tartarus.
>How would anyone even report on them?
"I double-checked the dates and rumors regarding how they earned their cutie marks, and it all adds up. These ponies are worth keeping a close eye on."

>there was no reason to not send Twilight sooner as the outcome would be basically set in stone - as well as Twilight being the Element of Magic.
No GOOD reason. In this episode we gets Celestia's reason, and it's a very human, very mortal one. Her reason for not sending Twilight away earlier is that she doesn't want to let go.

>Twilight laments the fact along with Moondancer and ends up socializing with her classmates, forming a strong bond.
I'm not sure that's what would have happened. She would have formed *a* bond with Moondancer, like she had a bond with Shining Armor and Cadance.
Her social skills would have developed immensely though, and that would have been a huge boon come the events of Nightmare Moon.

>In that case, does Celestia still send her away alone to find M5?
Yes. I don't see why she wouldn't.
>What about after that, what if Twilight wants to go back to her group of childhood friends she's now so close with?
That would be a problem. Likely she'd end up spending a week in each place or something, but I don't think that would have happened. Her limited bond with Shining Armor and Cadance is weaker than her bond with mane6.
You might as well ask what happens now that RD is a wonderbolt and the wonderbolts are located in Cloudsdale, or how can Rarity run boutiques all across Equestria.
True friendship finds a way, at least in Equestria.

>>29894043
She worked on the show but it wasn't only her who worked on it. Sure it's her vision but I'm just going by what made it into the show. And in S1 there was no information about M5 as a whole before Twilight arrived other than Cutie Mark Chronicles. For all we know back then M5 were just active Ponyville residents who took the jobs for the Celebration and that's why Twilight met them.

>>29894109
>Sure it's her vision but I'm just going by what made it into the show.
Mane5 being friends before Twilight made it into the show. It's seen in for example S7E1.

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>>29893495
>nobody knows what element going to do when you're using them.
But didn't they use them on Discord to turn him specifically back to Stone? Or if not, had a spell that would use them to turn him into Stone?
I'm not sure the Elements work randomly, there must be some sort of control they have. And if that's the case, did anyone know what the outcome of using them on NMM would be? The first time was a banishment of 1000 years. This time they broke away the Nightmare from Luna.

>>29894089
>giving Twilight all the Alicorn magic. If it was a last ditch attempt in the hope Twilight would find a way, being the Element of Magic
She's supposed to fight Tirek with all that magic and lose, she needed to feel that desperation, without her friends - alone. When you overcome such things it makes you stronger.

>>29894169
That is all based on your theory Celestia knows the future. Dismiss that for a minute.

>>29893392
>I'm still a bit confused as to why Celestia would consider anywhere but Ponyville had she the knowledge of the Elements in mind. Had she not known, then it makes it more of a "One option out of many was finally chosen" deal. But had she known, Ponyville was surely the only option
>>29893748
>What Celestia considered as other options was having Twilight go as an au pair to Manehattan at the age of 15, shut down the library so that she'd be forced to socialize when Twilight was 10, and such options.
>Other options that would have helped expand Twilight's horizons and help prepare her for her destiny long before the fact.

So you reckon she only considered other options to help Twilight prepare for the eventual journey to Ponyville? There's no guarantee it'd work, but I suppose that was cause of Celestia's concern too.

>>29894161
>they
Yes, EoH have some control but not their users. I honestly can't imagine Celestia sending her sister to the moon for a thousand years, she probably didn't know what will happen when she used them.
This however implies that EoH have mind of their own or some sort of cognitive abilities. And goals. Harmony?

>>29894174
>Dismiss that for a minute
Then it makes no sense at all, there's literally no reason for her actions. Nobody's that stupid, especially when you're few thousand years old alicorn princess.

>>29894118
That's why we're discussing it, as previous to AC there was no proof in the I can think of.

>>29894101
Does Celestia check on every single citizen of Equestria? Even if we take something like the Rainboom it's impossible to trace who got affected by it as AJ was in Manehattan and Pinkie was on her farm. Or even if it was it just M6 who were affected, because who knows how many ponies got their puberty kickstarted by it. Also not even M5 themselves shared their stories with each other before the Chronicles.
>Her reason for not sending Twilight away earlier is that she doesn't want to let go.
Sure, and I like that. But the stakes were so high could she realistically afford it? If the outcome was already known to her would she really risk it? Knowing that Twilight would succeed and it wouldn't really be a goodbye.
>I don't see why she wouldn't.
Because that's just changing one group of friends for another, not getting some friends. Twilight needed to see the Elements in M5 through her first experience with them. She used to wonder what friendship could be but if the magic of it was shared with her by other ponies beforehand I don't think it would even work. The only way around it is to say it's all pre-determined but that's what I don't like about it.
Shining and Cadence weren't even a factor back then. What if Twilight formed not just A bond but real friendship? What if someone like Twinkleshine would the one who reassured Twilight when she was in doubt, showing her Honesty? Would AJ override that experience for Twilight then?

>>29894212
>Sure, and I like that. But the stakes were so high could she realistically afford it? If the outcome was already known to her would she really risk it? Knowing that Twilight would succeed and it wouldn't really be a goodbye.
And it still was hard, she's like a daughter to her, she loves her so much.

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>>29894257
I wish it was shown sooner. It's the first time we've seen how vulnerable Celestia actually is. If it was up to her she would probably shelter Twilight forever.

That's exactly why I'd like to think that it wasn't predetermined and set in stone. This instantly raises the stakes. Torn between the only chance to see her sister again and losing what little she has right now, a filly who's like a daughter to her. She wins everything or she loses everything. For me to think about NMM's return as a gamble Celestia doesn't know the outcome of is far more emotional than thinking about it as something she already knew was going to end well. That even knowing she should send Twilight she can't just do it, not just because she feels lonely but because she doesn't know if Twilight is gonna succeed at all. And yet she has the outmost confidence in her, not because of precognition but because they are that close. I just find that more interesting.

Reading all this discussion that unfolded some hours ago when I had to leave is really interesting. I'm particularly thinking more about the time Celestia sent Twilight to Ponyville.

I too agree with the theory that Celestia had a plan in the first place to try to re-find the elements of harmony, this time embodied in the 5 ponies that piqued her attention sometime in the past.

I just want to add some more food for thought here. Twilight was reading about the NMM prophecy, she finds that the prophecized day is coming the next day and she warns Celestia about it. By seeing that her student is interested and knowing that she's never tardy and thus never fail to disappoint, Celestia had to send her away that day and not postpone it any longer.

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>>29894201
>there's literally no reason for her actions
To be clear, we're talking about the action of leaving it all to Twilight, right? Passing her magic on and telling her not to involve her friends?
It was a last ditch effort, Celestia knowing the future is a theory and there must be more to this plan.

>EoH have some control but not their users
You think the users have no control at all? It's just the Elements? On what basis would they work?
If it's Harmony, then they had a different on NMM on two different occasions. The users must have some sort of control

>>29894846
>they had a different on NMM on two different occasions
Because second time they didn't need to send NMM on the moon, she lost her value as a villain at the time - Twilight already defeated her.

>Passing her magic on and telling her not to involve her friends?
My point exactly, if she didn't know what was going to happen then there was literally no point to dump all this magic in Twilight and telling her to avoid her friends.

>>29894201
>>29894846
>>29894930
Elements of harmony when celestia used them on NMM were imbalanced to fuck.
Only one of two bearers, and used against the other user.
They still worked, but the best they could do was simply remove NMM instead of cleansing her, and with the other bearer completely gone the elements simply became inert.
When the mane6 used them, they worked with full friendship force.
When they tried to use them against discord the first time, they sort of started to work before they ran out of juice.
Second time worked much better.
The elements are obviously linked to their bearers in some fashion, or starswirls spell wouldnt have changed their cutie marks around in Twilights alicornication nor killed unicorn twilight with full powered friendship lasers.
Third time use on discord was a slower more focused affair, so it's completely possible that by that point they or at least Twilight has figured out a degree of control over the process of firing rainbows.

>>29894833
Yeah, I think that might've been the tipping point, when Celestia knew she has no choice but to send her. She was probably also relieved that Twilight took the initiative.

>>29894990
>Elements of harmony when celestia used them on NMM were imbalanced to fuck.
>They still worked, but the best they could do was simply remove
>full friendship force
Don't you think that it's so much easier to cleanse NMM than send her on the moon for a thousand years, implying they also had to create some sort of a barrier that was there for all those years so she couldn't escape?
>The elements are obviously linked to their bearers in some fashion
Yes, they can't function properly if bearer's emotions are not synchronized with all 6 of them, they need this connection, but this have nothing to do wil their will or user's wishes.

>>29894998
Also possibility for Twilight accidentally finding this particular book about NMM right before her return is curiously impossible.

>>29873556
>>29875290
Because nobody in this thread seems to want to give a straight answer, I guess i'll have to say what I came up with

Basically, Twilight would be sending Starlight away to someplace new so that Starlight can go and make friendships and learn lessons on her own without Twilight leaning over her shoulder the entire time. After all, it seems that that's what Celestia did with Twilight.
Another theory is that Twilight is truly meant to be Celestia's successor and is gaining her Precognizance powers already

>>29893165
AND LET OUR TRUE SELVES SHINE

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>>29895091
>Also possibility for Twilight accidentally finding this particular book about NMM
I hadn't even thought about that. What the heck? Coincidence or did Celestia set things in motion this hard?
I suppose it is possible that when Twilight learned of the Summer Sun Celebration she decided to look it up and found all this information.
But if Celestia's plan was for her to meet the 5, the knowledge of the Elements of Harmony was vital, since they had to be activated through the 6. And Twilight wouldn't have had this knowledge without reading the book. So if Celestia was planning for Twilight to harness the Elements of Harmony and meet the 6, she HAD to make her aware of the Elements even existing.
And then as someone mentioned above, the information about the Elements of Harmony being in the Ponyville library? Could be just coincidence, it is a library after all but without the guidance of where to find the EoH, what would Twilight have done? She needed that knowledge too

Man, that's crazy to think about. It's possible Celestia had pretty much every little detail planned out in the most subtle way possible.
Man, even the books though. That's some incredible foresight.

I still think it's a theory but it's one that makes sense.

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>>29896943
And this raises the question to me again, what was Celestia's plan for Tirek? Assuming she doesn't know the future, what did she expect to get out of placing all the Alicorn magic in Twilight and then telling her not to include her friends?
>>29894930
>literally no point to dump all this magic in Twilight
I'm just not completely sure on Celestia knowing the future, which is why I'm thinking of another sort of explanation for it. There must have been more to the plan

>>29894990
>Elements of harmony when celestia used them on NMM were imbalanced to fuck.
Great point I hadn't considered. Do you think it's the Elements that control what happens or the bearers too?

Actually, thinking about it, Celestia is visibly upset when she's using the Elements on NMM. Doesn't that sort of imply she knew what was happening? And if she didn't know, how would she find out NMM had been banished for 1000 years and when she would return? It's not like the EoH can talk and tell her that. So if she was in control and knew what was going to happen, were the elements not in their full power and working as intended? Meaning they weren't imbalanced.
But then why would they cleanse NMM the Second time and not the First.

>>29896228
headed to sleep desu someone keep thread up plz

>>29883546
dunno what happened what i meant was i thought iy and the msg lines

>>29896978
>what did she expect to get out of placing all the Alicorn magic in Twilight and then telling her not to include her friends?
Let everything fall, including Twilight's friends, in order to buy Twilight as much time as possible?
Twilight could reach a stalemate with Tirek out of the box. With a month of training with her new-found powers it's quite likely she could have defeated Tirek by meeting magic with magic, and they could have rebuilt from there.

>Doesn't that sort of imply she knew what was happening?
The results are always bad for whoever is hit. NMM was banished for 1000 years, Discord was turned to stone for an eternity twice, NMM on her return was transformed back. Were the elements used when the Crystal Empire itself was banished? I can't remember.
Either way, Celestia doesn't need to know the exact results to know she's going to lose her sister. In a way, she already has lost her sister and it's only now starting to sink in.

>And if she didn't know, how would she find out NMM had been banished for 1000 years and when she would return?
Precognition, maybe? That, or magical theory. Magic behaves in fixed patterns in the universe, it can be studied and results can be predicted.
It could be as simple as knowing that nothing truly lasts forever and every spell has a duration, even if that duration is millennia, knowing that the barrier is weakest during the Summer Sun celebration (could come as a result of the location of the celestial bodies)

>>29896943
>it's a theory but it's one that makes sense
That's the only theory I can think of that makes sense of everything put together.

>>29896978
>Do you think it's the Elements that control what happens or the bearers too?
Do you honestly believe that Celestia would willingly choose to send her own sister in exile for a thousand years on the moon? We know that she's not that kind of pony.

>>29897805
Not the anon you're replying to, and I don't believe it either, but I think it's an idea worth pondering.

>We know that she's not that kind of pony.
We know she isn't now, we don't know what she was like back then.
She acted in haste, and failed to save the crystal empire.
She neglected Luna, and didn't see what was happening to her own sister.
She forces NMM to act. Rather than try to discuss or even compromise when NMM yells "not one step further", Celestia continues to push onwards.
She purged her sister from the history books, to the point where only a few legends and distorted traditions remain.

We have her actions, but not her drive. Pride could be what led her to fail in the crystal empire and fail to see what was happening to Luna, pride could also be what made her refuse to discuss things with NMM.
As for the historical revisionism, I'd go with sadness. Once her actions start to sink in I imagine it would be quite tough having to face her sister's face on paintings, statues, coins, etc. day in and day out.

I think that while Celestia has truly changed for the better over the last 1000 years and does a great job of keeping up a calm and authoritative facade, she does occasionally crack, betraying more of what she once was like. She's visibly seething with anger when she lashes out against Chrysalis for example.

>>29897892
>She acted in haste, and failed to save the crystal empire.
It wasn't her fault at all. She and Luna actually saved Crystal Empire and imprisoned Sombra in the ice of the arctic north, it was his curse that vanished the Empire.

>She neglected Luna
We don't really know what exactly happened back there. How did the Nightmare came to life? Just from some bottled up emotions? Is this an alicorn thing? Can this happen with Celestia in the future?

>She forces NMM to act
Wrong. She tried to reason with her and talk her out, even when NMM was attacking Celestia - she didn't fight back.

>She purged her sister from the history books, to the point where only a few legends and distorted traditions remain.
And that was her helping her sister, she didn't want ponies to remember Luna as monster and usurper or even betrayer. She was building ground for her sister's return and even changing history for her sake.

Celestia master planner

>>29887773
>>29887852
or it could be that celestia was written to be that mastermind and thats why we have her sending and manipulating twilight, but in reality the show decided to shit on her to fulfill cheap as fuck plot obligations.

File: it's a cartoon show.jpg (34KB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 640x360px

>>29898259
Celestia suffered the most from writing after S2. And now that she's explored more there's no reason to not latch at this opportunity. S1 Celestia was very important for me and this is the first time in years we get to come back to those events and from her perspective no less.
Everything can be explained from the show direction and plot perspective but it doesn't mean that it should. Otherwise all the show discussion and criticism would end at "it's a cartoon for little girls".

>>29896943
>I suppose it is possible that when Twilight learned of the Summer Sun Celebration she decided to look it up and found all this information.
I don't think that is a real possibility. Twilight already knew about the Summer Sun Celebration way before as a filly. In fact that's THE event that made Twilight study hard to enter Celestia's school in the first place.

>>29898360
How did Twilight learn about EoH? Studying. Who's guiding her studies? Her mentor and teacher.
At the right time Celestia gave Twilight push into the right direction and she learnt of EoH and then NMM's return, at the right time.
What did Celestia reply to Twilight's letter, saying that they are are on the precipice of a disaster? Go to the Ponyville, meet those 5 ponies and make some friends.
Celestia knows who NMM is, she knows what her return means and that it's not just a legend, but what she's doing? Sending her pupil to make some friends. She's differently knows what she's doing and doing it on a purpose.

>>29897805
>That's the only theory I can think of that makes sense of everything put together.
I feel like I'm reading two anon's in the Church of Celestia discussing how obvious it is that the sun revolves around the earth.

In season 1 there was so little information that it was plausible to suggest Celestia had some precognizance. Lauren Faust even said that might be true, but she didn't want to define Celestia's abilities too much. In that case, Celestia could scheme and plan around the notion of a future, and try to nudge things in the right direction.

But if you assume that knowing what we do now and after seeing Celestia get defeated so often, then you have to assume the best results Celestia plans for always require her to be defeated so that Twilight can save the day.

But here's a question: if she's precongizant like that, why is her losing always the best path? In a technical sense the obvious reason is that the writers want Twilight, or Sunburst, or a stiff breeze to prove themselves, but loss after loss, you begin to wonder why Celestia is a ruler and not a wise advisor to somebody who will act as a real figurehead for their nation.

If Celestia's power and wit are reasons other nations respect her, how are they going to feel when they see these annual near-misses? The incident in the Crystal Empire where Celestia was nearly defeated by a storm almost wiped out most of the ruling elites in a fell swoop.

Or I guess a better question is: what DOESN'T Celestia lose? What can't she lose to? When does it become beneficial to her to not lose, and prove herself instead of proving one of her servants?

>>29898553
>Celestia lose? What can't she lose to?
Before that we need to answer to the more important question: "What's her endgame? Her goals?"
Is she trying to build utopia for ponies? Or she have some ulterior personal goals that we don't know about?
I somewhat want her to be the last boss of mlp in context "she did nothing wrong".

>>29898582
>I somewhat want her to be the last boss of mlp in context "she did nothing wrong".
The trouble is, for her to be losing over, and over, and over to set up some kind of very long plan, we're starting to enter "just as keikaku" bullshit territory. I understand how those things work, because at the end the writers spell out the logical sequence that made this web of lies and misdirection not a big clusterfuck, but in real life I think most smart people realize that being smart means recognizing when things won't work too.

You can't account for everyone's actions to such a narrow margin that your five-year ruse will be executed flawlessly. You can't know the exact set of circumstances you'll be in seven years later, and you've been humiliated by everything that came at you.

Occam's razor kind of implies that Celestia's biggest trick was making us thing she had a plan in the first place. Her whole scheme was to make everyone think she had a scheme. That's easier and it's plausible. It requires the fewest assumptions.

Trust me, if Celestia turns around this season and says, "It was all according to keikaku! I fooled you!" there will be anons applauding with tears in their eyes, shouting "genius" because they know they're supposed to! Other anons will roll their eyes and walk out of the theater.

Let us not forget that in ponyland power doesn't seem to be the meter by which rulers are ultimately judged. Ponies are cute and simple-minded for the most part, and they are basically child-like in their behavior and mental capabilities.
Celestia is their leader not because she's the toughest of the bunch (although she probably is), but rather because of her motherly attitude toward ponyfolk and her wisdom.
I still think her shortcomings are many and undeniable, and I would like to reach a proper theory of Celestia that is able to explain it all while being as compliant to canon as possible, but I just thought I'd point out that a human frame of reference is not necessarily suited for interpreting the big picture.

>>29898553
>But here's a question: if she's precongizant like that, why is her losing always the best path?
I'd interpret Celestia slightly differently.

>what DOESN'T Celestia lose? What can't she lose to?
She's got precognition (she DOES have visions that turn out to be true), and she's wise, but she's nowhere close to perfect.

NMM she could plan literally 1000 years in advance, she won that one as planned. She got her sister back and gave her a chance to start anew, with a clean slate. The population as a whole is none the wiser, no one except the mane6 witnessed the events that took place in the Everfree castle.
Discord came as a surprise, but she did manage to recover and send the letters reminding Twilight what friendship means. Close call, but a victory.
Crystal Empire she knew about, and knew *exactly* where to place Cadance and Shining Armor so that Cadance could fulfill THEIR prophecy about a crystal princess. She was a bit unsure so she sent mane6 as fire support. Not only was Sombra defeated, the new princess is Celestia's puppet and the crystal empire is now essentially a part of Equestria, so from a political perspective that's a massive win. Much preferable to going there herself alongside Luna like Luna had wanted.

>When does it become beneficial to her to not lose, and prove herself instead of proving one of her servants?
Celestia herself isn't all that strong in a straight fight. But as a ruler she doesn't need to be. That's what armies (or magically gifted students and sisters) are for.

>>29898696
>Celestia is their leader not because she's the toughest of the bunch (although she probably is), but rather because of her motherly attitude toward ponyfolk and her wisdom.
Well we know she's independently weaker than Glimglam, and Twilight, and Chrysalis if Chrysalis has been feeding, and Cadence sometimes, and Discord, and Luna. There are probably other ponies stronger than her who don't cause trouble. It's actually safer to assume Celestia is in the same place or lower than where Cadence is in terms of power.

But let's be honest. I did think you were going for "the ponies are ruled by her because she loves them so much". We're talking about a government here. Government doesn't love anything. It can't, it's a mechanism.

Celestia is the ruler because she's the biggest.

>>29898715
>NMM she could plan literally 1000 years in advance
>The sun revolves around the earth, anon! It says so here in the Bible!
Basic logic disagrees. For one, if she was precognizant a thousand years ago, why didn't she foresee her sister turning? Any explanation you come up with should also thwart her ability to plan for NMM when she returned. The only way she can be precognizant is if she developed that ability later in life.

Her plan also didn't require her to scheme for a thousand years. All she needed was a pony with a lot of magical potential to make five friends who fit the rather broad features of the elements.

Also, to throw a wrench in the "precognizance" thing, we saw alternate timelines proving that the only thing between Celestia and complete destruction was Twilight. If Celestia were really making plans a thousand years in advance, or even a year in advance, a lot of those villain attacks could be deflected with or without Twilight. There's no reason Celestia's empire should be so totally devastated, unless the truth was that Celestia's leadership is nothing and Twilight's talents are the only proactive thing keeping Equestria in one piece.

>>29898720
You mean that literally, as in physically bigger? Because I'm pretty sure Bulk Biceps is not particularly high in Ponyville's hierarchy.
Sure, Celestia is an alicorn and is more majestic than the average pony, so there's that.

>>29898778
>For one, if she was precognizant a thousand years ago, why didn't she foresee her sister turning?
It's not selective, she can't control her visions, which is why she wanted Discord to track down Tirek after her vision of him for example.
But I guess it is possible her precognition is something she developed later in life. Or learned to understand/read later in life.

>>29898794
Bulk Biceps is openly stupid and has no ambition to lead. Celestia is an alicorn, and she's the tallest alicorn. I'm pretty sure that's why she's in charge. We've never seen her do anything to prove she has skills or merits past that, really. Sometimes she's nice to Twilight, but even that doesn't make her specifically more motherly or "good". My girlfriend spoils her dog with affection, and all its done is given the dog some severe dependency issues. The dog couldn't even walk on a leash properly until I patiently taught her to.

Twilight still barely makes her own decisions sometimes. Her plan to send Glimglam away was construed only because Celestia did it, and then she consulted with Celestia about it. Arguably, that would imply Celestia hasn't sufficiently prepared Twilight to be a princess or a teacher.

>>29898792
What we saw were false, distorted timelines that don't even make sense from a historical perspective. "Timelines" that rightfully should not exist, and going by what we know of time-travel magic in Equestria actually can't exist.
They never formed naturally, much like the cutie-mark switcharoo spells didn't give the mane5 natural backstories for how Dash earned Fluttershy's cutie mark.

>Zecora: Beneath this salve, no changeling hides, for it reveals the truth inside.
>Pinkie Pie: What does it mean?
>Zecora: The meaning is far worse, I see, for it is we who should not be.

>unless the truth was that Celestia's leadership is nothing and Twilight's talents are the only proactive thing keeping Equestria in one piece.
Celestia kept Equestria together for 1000 years.

>>29898836
>Celestia kept Equestria together for 1000 years.
Or - hear me out on this - maybe Starswirl and a variety of thankless soldiers and advisors kept Equestria together for 1000 years in spite of Celestia's weak grasp.

>>29898847

Without a single one ever failing, going corrupt, betraying Equestria, or anything like that? I find that very hard to believe.

>>29898864
Who said nobody failed, went corrupt, or betrayed Equestria? I mean who would they betray Equestria to, is one question.

But obviously there's failure. Celestia fails at a major event once every year, from the looks of things. And there's probably corruption since we know that ponies seem to exhibit corrupt behaviors sometimes.

But yes, let's suppose that in the face of Celestia coming across as weak and relatively hopeless for seven years straight, there are forces in a government besides the goddamned queen who actually make said government function.

Insane, I know. Most people were not aware of this, but did you know Donald Trump doesn't unilaterally make laws? He also isn't our entire military force, which is lucky because I don't think Trump can fly a fighter jet.

>>29898826
She's not only the tallest, she's also the oldest and literally makes the Sun go around. As a political figure you can't have anyone better than her. You can't put a puppet ruler on the throne since there's only one ruler at all times. You can't usurp the throne or kill her because she's tied to the sun and can just stop it at will if she wants to. She's been around for so long she knows everyone important and knows the history to not repeat its mistakes. There is just no one better to be the head figure.
>Celestia hasn't sufficiently prepared Twilight to be a princess or a teacher.
That was a given, even though it's not explicitly said or explored properly in the show.

>>29898622
>It was all according to keikaku! I fooled you
I don't see your point here, what's wrong with that? Genius level intelligence + thousand years of experience + precognition powers.

>>29898778
>she developed that ability later in life
Yes, I believe she somehow acquired this abilities after first NMM accident.

>>29898792
>alternate timelines
She obviously didn't had those powers in other timelines.

>>29898847
>Starswirl and a variety of thankless soldiers and advisors kept Equestria together for 1000 years
That's simply impossible from political perspective. When you show weakness - you lose your power, if Celestia was that weak and stupid as you want her to be - ponies would have removed her from throne thousand years ago.

>>29898896
>Who said nobody failed, went corrupt, or betrayed Equestria? I mean who would they betray Equestria to, is one question.
Griffons, Dragons, Buffalo, Yaks, Tirek's cousin, changelings, Villain of the Year 742.
On Earth, Japan is the only empire that's survived for over 1000 years, and our history is nowhere NEAR as filled with cataclysmic events as Equestria. Not even real-world Japan could face Godzilla-attacks on a yearly basis, and Japan is a relatively small, relatively isolated island whereas Equestria is located in the middle of a continent.

>there are forces in a government besides the goddamned queen who actually make said government function.
Definitely. But to say Celestia's grasp is weak, when her empire has outlived all but one of ours? Nah.

>>29898948
>the only empire that's survived for over 1000 years
>what is the Roman Empire

>>29898918
>literally makes the Sun go around
The show established other ponies can do this.

>It was all according to keikaku! I fooled you
>I don't see your point here, what's wrong with that?
"All according to keikaku" is famous for being complete bullshit because it's something the main character says after revealing this long, elaborate, multi-layered plan that had a trillion opportunities to go wrong at any step of the way, and he was pulling it against somebody equally as intelligent as him who was actively trying to outwit him. Making an elaborate twenty year plan is stupid because everything that can go wrong will, and you'll need a new plan. Planning for a thousand years is even dumber. Even with precognizance it seems unlikely Celestia has the brain power to track even loose, freewheeling part of her seven year ruse to make everyone think she's weaker than Cadence.

>>29898948
>Griffons
I guess, if you can think of a motive.
>Dragons
The predatory animal that kills ponies for fun?
>Buffalo
Not really a nation and not really of political influence.
>Yaks
I thought nobody interacted with these guys until recently.
>Tirek's cousin
You mean the guy who didn't want to conquer Equestria and instead helped Celestia maintain her power?
>Villain of the year 742
Charlemagne? Yeah, I suppose in the unspoken history of the show, there may have been other villains to betray Equestria to, but if something stronger than Chrysalis or a bad storm was around back then, how was Celestia not defeated?

Also Japan doesn't have magic. You'll note that in all the Godzilla movies, Japan asspulls a bunch of fake technology, magic, or whatever to even the odds. So going by the same logic, yes Japan totally does survive Godzilla.

Also, Japan's empire is not a thousand years old. Japan wasn't even unified as a nation until Ieyasu, and that was less than 500 years ago.

>>29898987

Holy Roman Empire? "Only" 844 years, from 962 to 1806.

>>29899013
Seriously? Eastern Roman Empire, 330-1453.

>>29899013
What are you defining as the "Japanese Empire?"

Because if you're willing to use a loose interpretation, Ethiopia had an uninterrupted state of national being for 2916 years. In fact, numerous countries existed as said countries for way more than a thousand years.

Let's actually not derail the great discussion just to contest Japan's knowledge of "history".

>>29899002
There were certain ponies who could do it in the past but you have to get training for it, can't imagine how would they manage that when the Sun is in other's control. More than that it's never established if this power can be relegated from Celestia who's power IS moving the sun. Only killing her outright, forcing her to give up her power or banishing her could possibly enable others to temper with the Sun. Luna herself refused to lower the Moon and Celestia couldn't do anything about it until she removed NMM from the picture entirely.

>>29899002
>unlikely Celestia has the brain power
Get over your hatred and try to think rationally. If you know pony psychology, how they think and do things, you're smart enough and you can see fucking future, I don't see any problems with plans like this.

>>29899053
They don't explicitly say how it was done. Just that they did it. Other ponies can raise or lower the celestial bodies.

>>29899054
This is how I know you're stupid, because you can't understand what's logically wrong about assuming nothing can go wrong in a thousand years.
>Oh, well if you can see the future
If you see a future that's a thousand years off, that's about as good as knowing the sun will implode one day. You notice that we're predicting the sun's implosion today, yet nobody on earth is speaking up to make plans to avert it. That's because even if we devised a plan to stop it, there's no knowing if we could afford to maintain that plan for the next billion years.

Celestia's plan appears to have lasted one pony lifespan if you're giving her that much credit, and because she had multiple students since we know Sunset Shimmer exists, we know she didn't assume Twilight would be the only possibility. Of course, even in the span of a pony's lifespam, Glimmer showed us how easy that was to derail by going back in time.

If something can go wrong, it's smart to assume it will. A pony, even Celestia, likely doesn't have the mental capacity to calculate twenty years of possible pitfalls or mistakes, much less a thousand of them. Seven years is stretching it too. Heck, assuming nothing will go wrong in the span of one year is overly optimistic.

>>29899084
>because she had multiple students since we know Sunset Shimmer exists
Aww, and you were doing so well until you brought up the comics.
Let's stick to canon, shall we?

>Glimmer showed us how easy that was to derail by going back in time.
It's impossible to derail history by using timetravel in Equestria. Stable loops can exist, but they're stable down to the tiniest scratch and inflection of voice.

>>29899084
>This is how I know you're stupid
And this is how I know that you're blind idiot yourself.
She can easily correct anything and everything that goes wrong along the path. If she can see near future and that distant outcome in thousand years - that something, that she wants to achieve, she can manipulate literally everything and guide flow of "accidents" toward her goal. If something derails from her "path" - that distant future will change and she will know that and she will correct that.

>>29899176
Not him, but his argument doesn't rely on the comics being canon (only EqG, which is canon by Word of Peter).

>>29899203
>If you don't think Celestia is as omniscient as the Christian God, then you're blinded by your hate
No. Just because I don't think Celestia is omniscient or more intelligent than any known computing technology today, nor any known person today, that does not mean I'm blinded by hate.

The reason you're stupid is because it feels like I may as well be discussing gospel with you. I'm trying to explain the paradox where God makes a stone so heavy he can't lift it. A stupid person makes a bunch of circular arguments about what God would do or what God thinks about the paradox, or how God doesn't allow the paradox to exist even though obvious it does. A smarter person makes fewer assumptions and concludes that if there is a God and he is all powerful, then his power would have to exceed causality and the notion of paradox.

You're at this stage where you're proposing that Celestia is a supercomputer so smart that none of us could ever fathom what she's thinking, and then you're going on to tell me how she'd handle problems, even though you're obviously nowhere near as smart as a supercomputer, much less an ordinary person.

>>29899286
And this is how I know that you're blind idiot, you didn't even read previous post.

>>29899203
I mean let me put it like this. If everything Celestia changes now has an impact on the future she sees in her visions, how can she even remember all the events that will happen between now and a thousand years from now? Your assumption is that she's got some tunnel vision on some distant point in the future, but whether or not she arrived at an appointment or what she ate for breakfast could alter the universe if it caused blueberry prices to rise or if rescheduling meant a delay on some important decision. She'd have to be constantly checking the future over and over for a thousand years and be able to predict how her daily activities are going to impact or alter that future.

Her brain does not have the storage capacity to remember all that.

Your problem is that starting with a childish notion of how the world works, where everything is stable and happens for obvious reasons, and then you're proceeding forward with a childish plan about how to manipulate that world. It's all so stupid. Your whole argument is just dumb, and it's obnoxious that you think someone isn't on board with your dumb approach to the whole thing because of "hate".

>>29899305
Let's take basic probability into account. What are the odds that the correct sperm to make Twilight Sparkle would fertilize the right egg at the right time? We're talking "things that can go wrong within a pony lifetime". Not even things that can go wrong in a thousand years. One generation. What are the odds that Celestia does something and it causes two of her citizens to not have sex at the precise second they had to in order to make Twilight? As little as reading a headline would distract them enough to make a difference.

There are millions of events like this happening every day, every year. Minor changes that make all the difference.

It's not hate, it's just a bare minimum grasp of causality that makes this whole "thousand year scheme" thing retarded.

>>29899176
>It's impossible to derail history by using timetravel in Equestria.
You're only assuming that because Twilight said it when she made a stable time loop. If Glimmer hadn't given up, the the Equestria she created would be the one that existed. Ergo, it's not impossible to derail history.

>>29899455

Possibly. What's more likely is that it's the Glimmer-made Equestria that would have existed until the map fueling it ran out of juice. Could be a week, could be a millennium.

Zecora too makes several remarks about how the world needs to be "set back on it's track" and how "it is we who should not be", so according to her the Glimmer-made worlds are "lesser" than the real Equestria in some metaphysical sense.

>>29899551
>What's more likely is that it's the Glimmer-made Equestria that would have existed until the map fueling it ran out of juice. Could be a week, could be a millennium.
Why is that more likely?

>"it is we who should not be"
By which she means time has been altered, and in the normal course of events they wouldn't exist like that.

>>29899575

>Why is that more likely?
All the evidence points towards it.
Twilight, Zecora, how little sense the alternate Glimmer-made worlds make. (For example, mane6 isn't around, so Nightmare Moon defeats Celestia, in another non-alternative, mane6 isn't around, so Celestia defeats Nightmare Moon without using the elements somehow and allows Luna to return, but is defeated by Discord. In another non-alternative, both NMM and Discord are defeated but Sombra somehow wages a grand war against Equestria, and so on.)

If non-stable timeloops can exist, there can be no "normal" course of events, if altering time is valid then every alternate timeline created is just as valid as original, but from Zecora's salve we know that's not the case, that world is somehow less valid.

>>29899640
How does it not make sense that Celestia loses to villains that she canonically lost to? Maybe in the alternate timelines, Celestia found other ponies to do Twilight's job, but Twilight's the only one who consistently rises to every challenge.

None of the evidence points to Glimglam being unable to alter time. The crux problem of the finale was that she was able to alter time, and in each of those altered timelines, Celestia was permanently deposed or about to be by unique failures.

>>29899324
She don't have to remember everything, she can just use her powers to see changes in the future and possible endings of her actions. And she don't have to constantly do this, your breakfast is not going to affect quality of the rain tomorrow evening.

>>29899346
How did she find Twilight? Did she specifically bred ponies so one day they will produce this special filly? I don't think so, she knew that one day in the future this filly will appear, and that day she found her and prepared her for future events.
Things happens even without your total control, you don't have to oversee every particle in the world to create one particular event in the future.

>>29899551
>Glimmer-made Equestria
She created few new worlds in the multiverse.
>Zecora's mumbo-jumbo mysterious words and strange feelings
This morning I felt that I was living in a dream, but it's not like you should seriously consider that possibility.

>>29899852
>Celestia eats blueberries in the morning.
>Ponies gossip about it
>Ponies tell each other it's the secret to Celestia's eternal youth
>Start buying a lot of blueberries
>Blueberry prices rise
>Twilight's mom wants to cook blueberry pancakes to serve to husband in bed, but changes her mind after seeing blueberries are too expensive
>They don't have sex that day. Twilight is not conceived
>Timeline fucked

Replying to you is exhausting. How many chances do you have in a thousand years to make it so your special golden child doesn't come to exist? It's like fifteen generations of breeding, and this entire time you're sitting at the top of the nation passing laws or discussing treaties that affect everyone. If the economy is in a slump, parents wait and don't have kids.

Anon, be honest. Are you younger than 13, or are you diagnosed with Down Syndrome? Because I can't think of many other reasons for you to not be following why precognizance is a tricky and often implausible story element.

>>29898232
Based

>>29899905
If you see some future event and do nothing about it - it will happen. IF you want to change it's outcome - you start to think how to manipulate things around to achieve what you desire, otherwise - things will happen as you first saw it.

If you'll see future - your dog will die in six days under a car and do nothing about it - your dog will die in six days under a car. But if you'll lock your dog in a house on that sixth day - dog will survive. Or knowing that you'll be so fucking sad that you'll cancel you date with John that evening and stay home with your dog, on sixth day John will kill both of you with a tea spoon when you'll fall asleep after raping your dog, but that is you - changing your future, you must not let this knowledge affect your decisions.

>>29874567
If it was truly as temporary as you say, wouldn't we have seen a librarian?

>>29873556
The basic idea behind sending Starlight away is not, "Go learn friendship." It's, "You've learned all you can here, so you need to travel somewhere else and learn other stuff."

In Twilight's case, that was because friendship education in Canterlot obviously wasn't sticking. The reason would've been different for Glims, but the concept is the same.

>>29900460
>Wouldn't we have seen a librarian
Not really. you could assume the library just wasn't used much, or that they simply didn't have a librarian. Or even that the former Librarian had decided to move

>>29901567
another one

ump

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>>29895726
Not sure how I missed this post.
>so that Starlight can go and make friendships and learn lessons on her own without Twilight leaning over her shoulder the entire time.
If it was about new Friendships, surely sending Starlight to the Crystal Empire with Sunburst wouldn't be an option? And if it's about learning lessons on her own, again, can't that be done in Ponyville?

>>29897787
>Let everything fall, including Twilight's friends, in order to buy Twilight as much time as possible?
You think that's a plan for the Princess of Friendship? Let everything fall? Fighting Tirek one on one isn't even what proved successful for her. It was friendship. It's not like Tirek would have waited around a month for Twilight to get better with her powers.

>The results are always bad for whoever is hit.
The very second episode lad. The curse of NMM is broken free after being hit with the elements.
>Precognition, maybe? That, or magical theory.
Seems a bit much to know the precise details based on that no?

>>29897805
>Do you believe Celestia would banish NMM
No, but the wording is unclear. To quote
>Using the magic of the Elements of Harmony, she defeated her younger sister, and banished her permanently in the moon
It sort of says she uses the Elements of Harmony to banish NMM. And then, from Predictions and Prophecies
>Legend has it that on the longest day of the 1000th year the stars will aid in her escape
How could that legend even be a thing? How would anyone know what happened to NMM when the Elements were used if there was no user control?
If the users have no control, then what does? And what makes the Elements behave differently in different situations such as both times with NMM? Honestly a lot of Punishments in the past seem severe. Tirek was sentenced to Tartarus, Discord turned to Stone, but would that have bearing on the EoH?
>>29898360
True, she probably knew all there was to know about it. So you think Celestia nudged the books in her direction too?

>>29898553
>>29898622
I think Celestia definitely had a plan for Twilight in place. But whether she knows what's coming ahead in other situations isn't really clear so you can't really say there's some kind of grand plan.
>It was all according to keikaku! I fooled you!
What do you mean by this? Fooled who over what? What would be her grand plan?

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>>29898792
>>29898836
>we saw alternate timelines
This makes me think. If Twilight realising her destiny as an EoH was Celestia's grand plan, how was Nightmare, Discord, Tirek, Sombra etc defeated in all the other timelines?
They shouldn't exist but the fact is that they did, so surely all those evils came along at some point within those timelines.
Who was there to stop them if not Twilight? If Celestia was planning for NMM and the EoH were the answer, what happened?


From what we think, Celestia pushed Twilight in the right direction to harness the EoH, in order to thwart NMM, correct? If Twilight hadn't come around, then who would save Equestria from NMM? And was Celestia planning for everything that came after NMM too? Tirek, Discord, Chrysalis, all the villains we've seen, Celestia didn't know they would return, is the timing just fortunate that the EoH were found earlier or did her plan also consist of fighting off these evils too?

Tl;dr Was Celestia planning for Twilight to just take on NMM or was she planning further than that?

>>29900460
>The basic idea behind sending Starlight away is not, "Go learn friendship." It's, "You've learned all you can here, so you need to travel somewhere else and learn other stuff."

Tying in to the top part of this post >>29903407 too, I don't get how simply sending her away would let her learn more. In the very next episode she learnt something in Ponyville, the end decision Twilight made was that she'd stay in Ponyville, but Twilight wouldn't oversee her with friendship and the like.

>because friendship education in Canterlot obviously wasn't sticking
So she'd send her away? There's no guarantee that friendship education there would stick either. Another anon mentioned how Celestia thought of different possibilities for Twilight as a way of preparing her for the Ponyville journey, which had to be the ultimate one since the Elements of Harmony resided there. I'm not completely sure on that but it'd make sense in a way.

>>29903487
I've always run on the theory that Celestia has multiple plans in play at any given time; Twilight was initially only the key to harnessing the Elements to defeat Nightmare, but after that Celestia took that victory and started integrating her into other plans (Discord and the Crystal Empire).

The other universes, frankly, we know too little about to make any accurate guesses about. Did the Bearers still gather in some of them, only to fail under later threats (Sombra, Chrysalis, etc)? Did none of them gather, but villains still fall to other circumstances - for instance, perhaps did the Chrysalis reality arise from Celestia expending herself to defeat Nightmare Moon? Was Luna recovered in the Sombra reality, and we just didn't see her, or was she re-sealed in the moon? Was Discord even released in the other realities, or was his statue lost or moved due to other circumstances?

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>>29903642
>we know too little about to make any accurate guesses about
Fair point. I mean, it could be Celestia had the same plan but it failed.

>Celestia has multiple plans
Both the Empire and Discord returned on a whim though, didn't they?
I can get understand setting things in motion for NMM's return, (though I do wonder when she began those plans. Was it after she realised she no longer had a connection to the Elements? When did that happen? How did the element of Magic go missing?), but everything beyond that seems a bit much to plan for surely when she didn't even see it coming.
There's been some really nasty villains that have returned. I mean, say Discord broke loose again before NMM returned, what would happen? No Elements and her magic alone was likely not enough to fight him.

Twilight and her friends have been crucial to keeping Equestria safe. In the S5 finale it's explicitly stated that without them, Equestria literally falls. So did Celestia know that and planned accordingly, or was it all a fortunate by product of her planning for NMM?

Headed to sleep
plz keep thread up

>>29903746
>Both the Empire and Discord returned on a whim though, didn't they?
The Empire, I suspect Celestia had a very good idea of what was coming. At the very least when a third alicorn with the symbol of the Empire's most precious artifact rolls in it's a pretty fair bet that something regarding it is going to happen soon. Discord - it's hard to tell. I've always wondered if he only broke out then because the Elements were back in play; as long as they were passive, so was he.

> In the S5 finale it's explicitly stated that without them, Equestria literally falls. So did Celestia know that and planned accordingly, or was it all a fortunate by product of her planning for NMM?
I've always assumed that Celestia plans for the best possible outcome in any given situation, using her foresight. Certainly, it would have been possible for the villains to have been overcome in other ways - but those ways might have been bloodier, risked splitting Equestria as its foundations were shaken to the core, and left it vulnerable to future threats (as may have happened in the alternate realities). She doesn't just plan for victory, she plans for a clean and bloodless victory using the biggest stick she has - the Element Bearers.

The flipside of this, the vulnerability, is that if those plans or the foresight that guides them is invalidated everything falls apart. Say, for instance, invalidated by a rogue unicorn traveling back through time to rapidly shift the future with no warning.

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Nice thread you have here.

>>29903746
>>29904004
They explicitly mention in The Return of Harmony that Discord broke out because the Mane Six took up the mantle of the Elements, severing the connection to the Two Sisters and undoing their spell.

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>>29904063
>The Return of Harmony that Discord broke out because the Mane Six took up the mantle of the Elements, severing the connection to the Two Sisters and undoing their spell.
I remember Celestia saying she's no longer connected, I don't remember that being the reason Discord broke out, or that it was as a result of the Mane 6 taking the elements that Celestia lost her connection. In fact, Twilight makes a puzzled remark about Celestia saying she's no longer connected to the Elements, implying even she didn't know what that really meant

>>29904004
>>29904063
Sombra and Discord are just two of the evils though.
There's been Discord's magic draining roots and Tirek, they've looked to the Elements and the 6 plenty of times.
>using her foresight
As in, you think she knows what's going to happen in the future, or just general foresight.

There have been a lot of threats to Equestria since the Elements of Harmony returned. Sombra's one she may have seen coming, but there have been multiple other times where the Main 6 have been needed and they've saved the land. Even times like returning Cerberus to his gates at Tartarus.
Was Celestia planning for all of these bad events? I don't think she knew they were all going to happen, so was it just ripe timing that all these things only happened after the Elements were discovered? Or could there be more to it?
Because if the Elements weren't discovered and the villains came earlier, it's not clear what Equestria would have done without the M6, especially if Celestia was planning hard for NMM only for another villain to come along

>>29904117
>Princess Celestia: I thought the spell we cast would keep him contained forever, but since Luna and I are no longer connected to the Elements, the spell has been broken.

I mean, I guess it's not -explicitly- said, but it's pretty heavily implied that they're no longer connected to the Sisters because they're now connected to the Mane Six.

>>29904129
You're right. Which raises more questions. When did Celestia's connection to the EoH break? Surely Luna's broke 1000 years ago, Celestia's probably broke some time after, and even if not then at the very latest when the Main 6 acquired them.
How come Discord didn't break out straight away then? Why some time down the line and now as soon as the connection was lost? Did the discord around him with the CMC act as the trigger to break him free? I always put that down to coincidental timing. Celestia certainly seemed surprise that Discord had broke free.

So still, on the original point, I don't think Celestia had planned for Discord, but is it possible she was looking beyond just NMM for the Main 6? Because their work has saved Equestria time and time again and if not them in that situation, who? The Elements were crucial.

>>29904163
I'd say the Elements remain connected to someone until they're forcibly broken away.

- Celestia and Luna embody various elements of harmony.
- Luna goes evil, weakening her bond to the Elements. Celestia swoops in and connects with all six, and uses them to banish her.
- The Mane Six steal the connection from Celestia, because you can't really be friends with just yourself; and since Friendship Is Magic™, their affinity for the EoH is stronger. This is implied by what Celly says:
>Princess Celestia: You six showed the full potential of the Elements by harnessing the magic of your friendship to beat a mighty foe. Although Luna and I once wielded the Elements, it is you who now control their power, and it is you who must defeat Discord!


>Celestia certainly seemed surprise that Discord had broke free.
Well, it's not like she's ever lost her connection to the EoH in the past. I doubt she knew that EoH spells worked that way.

>>29904187
>I'd say the Elements remain connected to someone until they're forcibly broken away
If Celestia was able to connect with the 6 after NMM, she must have retained that connection. for a while after surely.
And whenever it did break, how come that isn't the point that Discord was freed, as opposed to some time later?

Also plans point etc.

>>29899052
I feel sorry for anyone coming into this thread to see what it's all about. Either they dismiss it as autism or try to get into it with no idea where to start. I agree there's some legit great discussion though, it's interesting af and one of my favourite threads on /mlp/ in a while

>>29904194
What I'm saying is that Celestia maintained her sole connection to the Elements for Luna's thousand years of exile, right up until the Mane Six swiped them.

This would mean it took, oh, the length of season 1 for Discord to get free. As for why it took that long? Either it just takes a while for a lingering EoH spell to fade, or (as you suggested) the fillies' visit to the Canterlot gardens was the final catalyst necessary to strengthen Discord. Maybe it's both.

On Celestia's plans, I believe it depends largely on which events one is talking about. She obviously had a plan for Twilight from the start, and a contingency for the Crystal Empire, but things like Discord and Chrysalis seemed to take her off-guard.

>>29903950

>>29903407
>So you think Celestia nudged the books in her direction too?
Seems to be that way. If we agree with the master plan theory at least on the very beginning, it's very plausible that Celestia "planted" the Elements of Harmony book in the Treebrary. She did booked the library for Twilight's stay in Ponyville, so it'd be a matter of time for Twilight to begin her research on the elements.

>>29904117
>There have been a lot of threats to Equestria since the Elements of Harmony returned
Which is funny if you think about it. Equestria lived in peaceful times for 1000 years before the elements, but re-finding the elements somehow made things worse where might foes appear more frequently. One first conclusion would be that the foes release and the elements are somehow connected, so it'd be better to just deactivate them for the sake of Equestria.

Technically we all know that's because it's a cartoon show and they wanted more adventure based episodes, but that's the easy intrusive answer

>>29903487
>Tl;dr Was Celestia planning for Twilight to just take on NMM or was she planning further than that?
She must have had some half-formed plans based on fragments of visions at least.
Taking Cadance under her wing is likely one such plan. Either because she senses (or plain ol' sees, with her eyes) Cadance is special and therefore important, or because she had another vision and knew Cadance would end up ruling the Crystal Empire. With Cadance owing her everything to Celestia, Celestia has full control over the crystal empire and can guarantee (mutually) beneficial policies. Open borders today, erased borders tomorrow.
Spike is almost certainly a special project in his own right. While Twilight studied, Spike bought gifts for Moondancer and earned favors to call in from the social elite. Fast forward a few years and Spike had an important hand in liberating the Crystal Empire, was the first one to befriend the future changeling king, and became dragon lord before instantly giving the scepter away. He's a kingmaker twice, and his loyalty (and debt) to Celestia ensures the kings who owe their throne to Spike will be amicable towards Celestia and Equestria too. If Celestia asks Spike to say "open trade routes", Gaylord Thorax and Dragon Lord Ember will both bend over.

>>29905170
>cont.
Especially in the case of the changelings it's immediately noticeable how far Celestia's plans reach. After Chrysalis runs away, amidst all the confusion her message seals the fate of a nation. "Thorax, as the new leader of the changelings, I look forward to discussing how we can improve our relationship in the future.". No election. No discussion. Just like that, plant the seed of an idea and promise stability, and the confused, leaderless changelings will fall in line behind an Equestria-friendly leader.
The way griffons are handled too could be part of Celestia's plans, but you don't need any real foresight for that. Inviting griffons into Equestria and allowing them to compete in the Equestria Games while ponies help rebuild their once-proud empire is a simple, cheap and effective means of improving relations.
I think it's quite likely Celestia has several "aces" like these up her sleeves, many of which we'll never see. I think it's also quite likely she waited for her sister's return before starting the expansion. Luna is feared in a way Celestia could never be, and Luna is the strongest pony magician we've ever seen, so merely by existing Luna is a deterrent against antsy neighbors who might be scared of Equestria's sudden trade expansion and open borders policy.

There are things that took her by surprise though. Discord the first time around was a complete surprise, especially how he managed to steal the elements. Makes sense, unlike most other punishments his was meant to be permanent.
Tirek came out of nowhere, but her vision bought her enough time to make *a* plan. And it would have worked too, if it wasn't for that damn traitorous Discord.

>>29905046

I've had this idea that the magic of the world moves in cycles.

We don't have a date, but the three tribes migrating from the Windigoes, Equestria's founding, and Tirek's visit all happened while Starswirl was still considered "young", meaning these events were all close to each other.
Both NMM and Crystal Empire happened ~1000 years ago.
After that, nothing.
Up until now, when the world is once again turned upside down on a yearly basis.

Call it the planets aligning, or the magical drought ending, or a new "age of legends", or whatever.
My point is, every 1000 years (or possibly every 500 years) we get a short period maybe 50 years in length when relics are broken and forged, where immortals are born, killed or imprisoned, and the land itself is reshaped.

>>29905196
We don't have any exact information with dates on them from historical point of view.
And if so the questions is "why?".

>>29904117
>As in, you think she knows what's going to happen in the future, or just general foresight.
As in, we know she has some degree of precognizance. The way it was described, it's not "absolutely perfect exact vision of the future" but more a general sense - which probably also helps her avoid the trap of getting caught up in the cascading effects of every little change she makes - that gives her enough information to "fill in the blanks" successfully and secure a positive outcome.

So she tends to put all her eggs in one basket, yes, because she knows where that basket is going even before it does itself.

>There have been a lot of threats to Equestria since the Elements of Harmony returned. ... Even times like returning Cerberus to his gates at Tartarus.

I'm not sure that was a threat only the Elements alone could have addressed, though. Like I keep saying, there were probably alternative solutions to those problems available - but once the Element Bearers were in play, Celestia readjusted her plans to incorporate them and throw every problem at the Bearers. Because if you've got a really, really big stick you're going to use it every chance you've got (unless your foresight says that would be a really, really bad idea, which may have only just happened at the S6 finale).

>>29873556
sending your student away is not for him to find friendship or the meaning of it

it just means you can't teach him anything anymore, you shared all your wisdom, and he does have to make experiences for him self to fully understand the lessons taught

only a fool couldn't understand this

>>29873911
didn't celestia said

"...That's why i send you to ponyville, to find true friendship and defeat nightmare moon"
"bla bla bla.. Magic inside of you was strong enough but you lacked the friendship"


the new episode is re-writing the intentions

from the first two episodes you learn that celly knew farily well that NMM is about to rise again and sending twilight to make friends was a part of the plan to defeat NMM

contradicting the first season canon is kinda gay desu but none of you larping niggers will remember anyway

that's why my headcanon makes Twilight a Trueman (trueman show)
Celestia orcastrated everything, they might be friends now and truly love each other but the initial motiv to learn about twilight have been princesses orders

>>29905207

Why do you need exact information with dates?
7 years and well over 100 episodes into the show, we have nothing of importance happening in-universe 300, 500, 700 or 800 years ago.

We have what I gave in my post. One thousand years mentioned in the context of both Luna and Crystal Empire. Regarding Crystal Empire, it could be 1050 years, could be 1100 years. But we can safely say it's not 1600 years. And of course it can't be less than 1000 years because Luna was present. Regarding Luna and her banishment, "one thousandth year" is part of the legend.

Starswirl was Clover The Clever's teacher, Clover the Clever played an important role when Equestria was founded, and Starswirl befriended Scorpan before Tirek wanted to destroy Equestria. Oh, and the princesses are around during Tirek's first attempt at an attack, so we can add that as a huge, important event too.

Two clumps of seemingly unrelated but highly important events, with nothing of interest happening in between. Two clumps that could be any number of years or cycles apart, but two clumps that are less than a pony lifetime long each. And now we're in a third.

>And if so the questions is "why?".
What do you mean? Why do the stars align every 1000 years? Why do dragons migrate every 100 moons (or however often it is)?
Many things happen in cycles, without a deeper understanding of dragon psychology and biology or understanding of in-universe magical theory these are questions we can't give an answer to.
That doesn't prevent us from observing and noting the patterns as they manifest, nor does it prevent us from making predictions based on the patterns we have.

>>29905460
Starlight is female. The English language has these nifty things called punctuation and capital letters.

Only a fool couldn't understand this.

>>29905483
Exact quote is:
>Princess Celestia: I told you that you needed to make some friends, nothing more. I saw the signs of Nightmare Moon's return and I knew it was you who had the magic inside to defeat her, but you could not unleash it until you let true friendship into your heart. Now if only another will as well. Princess Luna!

>the new episode is re-writing the intentions
Explain when and how. From watching the S7 episode it becomes very clear Celestia sent Twilight to Ponyville for that exact reason she gave way back in S1. To befriend a group of very special ponies and let true friendship into her heart.

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Someone help me out with something Celestia said in the episode

>Hmm I was not aware that I was an expression

Does this suggest that all the times that we've seen a pony say something along the lines of "Oh my Celestia" or "Celestia knows what" etc that it's actually a recent term and one more akin to slang? See this is interesting as it calls into question exactly how the citizens of Equestria view their princess and whether they see her as a god or princess or something between the two and it also makes you wonder why they started using the term in the first place. After all they couldn't have been using it for very long if Celestia hadn't hearf of it.

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>>29905528

First of all, those sayings aren't actually all that common. Common in fanfiction, but fairly rare in the show. They do happen, but horse puns (which makes much less sense in universe) are far more common, so either way I wouldn't take them too seriously. Same as lyrics, basically.

At the core though, using her name like that IS blasphemous.
And we know from this episode (her personal guard not knowing whether to respond or not) as well as from others (tea party scene in Sugarcube Corner, the multiple times Twilight is certain she's upset her) that she's grown rather distant even from those who are supposed to be close to her, and that most ponies, including students and personal guard, on some level fear her and what she might do.
Simply put, expressions like that one could have seen limited use for hundreds of years, but no one has ever actually DARED use such an expression in her presence until now, when Twilight, the one who's closest to her, in a relaxed, fairly casual setting has other things on her mind and accidentally makes a slip-up.

>>29905483
>contradicting
It's not.

>>29905486
>we have nothing of importance happening in-universe 300, 500, 700 or 800 years ago
And how do you know that?

>Starswirl was Clover The Clever's teacher, Clover the Clever played an important role when Equestria was founded, and Starswirl befriended Scorpan before Tirek wanted to destroy Equestria. Oh, and the princesses are around during Tirek's first attempt at an attack, so we can add that as a huge, important event too.
As far as we can tell, it happened somewhere around two thousands years ago, maybe more maybe less, we don't really know.

>with nothing of interest happening in between
Again, we don't know that.

>Many things happen in cycles
>patterns
This have nothing to do with a history.

>>29905528
>if Celestia hadn't hearf of it
She obviously was joking.

>>29873556
The whole episode struck me as the writers essentially admitting they have no endgame with Starlight. They have no clue where to go from here and are basically just biding their time waiting for Hasbro's sales to dip enough to warrant pulling the plug or throwing something new into the mix to work with.

>>29905643
>And how do you know that?
Name one such event. It's been over 100 episodes. Can you think of something?

>As far as we can tell, it happened somewhere around two thousands years ago, maybe more maybe less, we don't really know.
Not the point. But 2000 years would be oddly fitting.

>Again, we don't know that.
Name one.

>This have nothing to do with a history.
This is primarily about events like for example magical seals breaking according to some external cycle, creatures with extraordinary destinies being born during certain times, etc.
These events in turn are grand enough to create history.

Ironically, we DO see things like this reflected in our own history as well. A disproportionate amount of war campaigns have been started in summer, because the farmers who are drafted need to plant their crops in spring so that they can (hopefully) be home for harvest so as to avoid starvation the next winter. An outside cycle (the seasons) dictating such important matters as when wars are declared.

>>29905680

Exactly. The second episode of the two only cemented this, and we can expect more episodes with cute ponies doing cute things. Kind of like the CMC episodes after S2 up until they earned their cutie marks.

>>29905721
>cute ponies doing cute things
>trixie being an autistic cunt for 22 minutes while mary sue starlight has to learn to contain her forbidden edge magic because she's so powerful and shit
I found the starlight fag

>>29905711
>Name one such event. It's been over 100 episodes.
>Name one.
And? In the show we never learned anything history related, except few visions of the past. We know almost nothing about ancient times, if you don't know about it - it doesn't mean it's not there.

>some external cycle, creatures with extraordinary destinies being born during certain times, etc.
We have nothing to even consider existence of this kind of cycles.

>our own history
Have nothing to do with ponies.

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>>29905738
well meme'd

>>29905751
>In the show we never learned anything history related
Wrong.
We have learned much about Equestrian history, it's alluded to several times, primarily in season finales and premiers but also in episodes like Hearts & Hooves day and visual storytelling from episodes like Castle Mane-ia, and we have several episodes fully dedicated to it including Heart's Warming Eve.

>We have nothing to even consider existence of this kind of cycles.
Wrong.
See >>29905486
We have a LOT of circumstantial evidence supporting the existence of this kind of cycle, and nothing to prove the opposite.

>Have nothing to do with ponies.
Please explain why you think pony history functions on fundamentally different principles than ours do.
Since our history is demonstrably affected by external cycles (like in my example, seasons) and displays patterns like campaigns during summer, why do you believe this is irrelevant to pony history?

>>29905802
>We have learned much about Equestrian history, it's alluded to several times, primarily in season finales and premiers but also in episodes like Hearts & Hooves day and visual storytelling from episodes like Castle Mane-ia, and we have several episodes fully dedicated to it including Heart's Warming Eve
And what exact FACTS about the past did we learn from kids play? Or Castle Mane-ia?

>a LOT of circumstantial evidence
This is pure speculations on your part, don't call it evidence.

>campaigns during summer
This is seasonal cycle, you're talking about some mystical thousand years cycle.

>>29905839
>And what exact FACTS about the past did we learn from kids play?
Starswirl was Clover the Clever's tutor. Unicorns had a princess named Platinum, the pegasi were led by a pegasus named Commander Hurricane (whom we learn was male, from external sources). The three pony tribes migrated from the north and united. And so on.
>Or Castle Mane-ia?
Unicorns wore suits made of heavy plate armor, which is of a completely different design from pegasus armor and it's modern descendant, the guard armor.
The roof didn't just collapse, it was seemingly cut apart, hinting at some dramatic event. (by Luna, we learn in a later episode)
Luna and Celestia held identical thrones side-by-side despite Celestia being the older sister.
Do you even watch the show?


>This is pure speculations on your part, don't call it evidence.
Whaaat? Do you even understand the concepts of speculation and evidence?
The events I mentioned are themselves evidence. The events do happen as I describe in the timeframe I describe. If you dispute this, you'll need to demonstrate that the show is actively lying straight to our face regarding the in-universe history.
The existence of a cycle of some sort is speculation on the other hand. A theory of mine built on the aforementioned observations.

>This is seasonal cycle, you're talking about some mystical thousand years cycle.
Correct.
Are you suggesting thousand years cycles can't happen or can't affect history or something? What's your angle here?
Ice ages are cyclic, and where I live the last ice age sculpted the entire landscape, from an observable land-rise at over 1cm a year, to glacial erratics and scarred rocks being ubiquitous.

>>29905680
It's a setup to make her learn on her own so they can make her a princess by the end of S7

>>29904907
Thanks love

>>29904243
>right up until the Mane Six swiped them
I guess so, but it's also possible her connection broke before that. I mean, if she was still connected to the Elements until just before the Mane 6 took over, why not just them herself? That's why I think the connection broke before. I mean, she wouldn't be planning for NMM's return if she could just use the Elements herself. She had plans for Twilight for a reason.

Which makes me more curious as to why it took that long for Discord to break free if Celestia losing her connection is what weakened the grip.

>>29905046
>Equestria lived in peaceful times for 1000 years before the elements
Well actually I gave it a bit more thought and all the villains we've seen Celestia is familiar with, meaning they have all surfaced before at some point in the past.
How they were defeated then, I don't know, but Equestria does seem to prone to danger then as it is now. Discord also ruled it for so long that I reckon many people didn't even bother opposing him.
Discord is legend after all, either after his defeat they feared whatever did manage to defeat him even more, or they didn't bother with Equestria because he spent too long just messing with it.

The thing is though, these dangers have come back potentially far worse than ever before and the Elements were needed, so was Celestia well aware and planning for those too?
Because had someone like Discord, or another evil force resurfaced earlier, what could she do without the Elements?

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>>29905170
>>29905172
I see what you mean, Celestia does seem to have a lot of things planned out. I meant more regarding Twilight specifically though. Sort of tied into the response above.
I think Celestia didn't specifically know that it was Twilight who was going to take up the Elements. It seems she had a plan, but not for a specific Pony. Had the worst happened and she not found Twilight when she did, what would her plan be for NMM?
And when the Mane 6 took on the Elements, did she know of the incoming threats that were going to surface? Since the likes of Tirek came along later and the EoH were necessary to defeat him, who would have opposed the villains without the EoH? What would she have done had they came along before?

>>29905360
>there were probably alternative solutions to those problems available
Like what? For NMM's return, what could be an alternative solution? Or for Tirek, or even Discord. Both took her by surprise, but they still surfaced post EoH. Did she know they'd come along when they did or is it just "good" timing that it happened after the EoH?

>>29905989
>whom we learn was male
Comics? I don't recall this

>>29905989
>And so on
And that is all. No time frames - we don't know when it happened and don't forget that it's kids play, not a history lesson.

>Unicorns wore suits made of heavy plate armor, which is of a completely different design from pegasus armor and it's modern descendant, the guard armor.
>The roof didn't just collapse, it was seemingly cut apart, hinting at some dramatic event. (by Luna, we learn in a later episode)
>Luna and Celestia held identical thrones side-by-side despite Celestia being the older sister.
And none of this have anything to do with history or dates.

>in the timeframe
There is no timeline, we don't have any dates, only guesses based on ancient fairy tales.

>What's your angle here?
I'm trying to say that you have nothing to prove this theory but your own speculations based on reference to >Ice ages are cyclic

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>>29905460
>it just means you can't teach him anything anymore,
Expressed multiple times how I get this. But why should that have to include physically moving away? Starlight in the very next episode learnt a new lesson, so it's obviously possible in Ponyville, which Twilight saw in the end. But why wasn't that considered earlier? Why the emphasis on moving her?

>>29905513
Yeah this.

>>29907415
I think Celestia was pretty much set when Twilight got her cutiemark and only then got to deeper planning. Even if she didn't know about the other threats re-awakening the Elements was important. I don't think that without them anything could've been done to the returning villians.
But it's also possible that re-awakening the elements did shift something in the balance of power. Discord for example was tied to them and Celestia but I don't remember much else, so I can't really comment. But is it possible that the fact that the Elements found their bearers after all these years had an effect on some villians?

>>29907375
>why not just them herself?
Because she was out of commission for most of that time.

Pretty much everything you're saying is based on the assumption that Celestia deceived everyone to push Twilight toward her destiny, which isn't in keeping with her character. But just having a plan doesn't mean you need to create dilemmas to drive it forward. It's a tenuous headcanon that has no real evidence and only creates more questions, as you said.

>>29907923
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.
You're saying Celestia held her connection to the Elements up until Twilight took over. I'm asking if that was the case, and she had a connection to the Elements, wouldn't she be able to use those herself against NMM's return?
She had to have lost her connection far earlier, the Element of Magic even went missing only to return by the spark within Twilight. So on that front, what was it that caused Discord to break free? Why after S1, and not when Celestia lost her connection to the Elements?

>>29908021
Step by step, then.

- The Elements are hidden away in the Castle of the Two Sisters.
- Nightmare Moon returns. She traps or otherwise disposes of Celestia for a while. Because Celestia lives in Canterlot and not the now-ruined castle she built as a filly, she doesn't have the Elements right at hand.
- By the time Celestia breaks free, the Mane Six are the new wielders of the Elements.

When you ask why Celly didn't just do it herself, you imply that she was not trapped/incapacitated by NMM.