Was it better back when we thought they were gods? Or, to perhaps

>>29302148
yeah it was way better, no question about it

>>29302148
Truly nothing gold can stay.

>>29302148
Of course

It's no secret that fandom's thrive on a lack of storytelling, the "small ponies in a large and mysterious world" arc was entirely what sold the first season of the franchise into the hands of older viewers. It allowed fans to project their ideas and fantasies onto the characters in a way that they saw fit, this was done looking through the eyes of Twilight the main protagonist, studying under princess Celestia the demigod to learn about friendship.

That was the formula, and it worked.
This supports my theory as to why Twilight's ascension is the reason the show has lost the sense of immersion it once had.

TV shows full of weirdos and fantasy elements need someone with a neutral and grounded personality to help guide the viewer through the story, Twilight filled that role, through S1 and S2 she responded to characters in ways that mimicked the audience, like a form of building rapport.

The show lost many things in recent seasons, not all bad, but Twilight as the main protagonist was a big part of making the show as popular as it was.

>>29302148
i disagree, i always liked lore and when they explain it
the problem is though, they don't do it properly. For every answer they give, they give more questions and don't seem to have any intention of answering them properly.

>>29302148
Yes, absolutely. If they'd kept that in mind, they could have developed the world while keeping it mysterious, magical, and intriguing.

>>29302409
This anon is also right, Twilight's ascension would only work if the show's focus had changed to keep her as the viewer's gateway into the world. The tree of harmony stuff wasn't a real journey.

>>29302409
I binge watched the show so I wasnt part of the ascension shitstorm. I don't think that it inheritly ruined the sense of immersion. My problem is that they had a really lovely song about growing up and her playing her part, making it seem like there was a *lot* more to princesshood behind the scenes that we didn't know about.
But all she's really done as a princess has been the same usual friendship stuff, only with the cutiemap its like she's not even the one in control. Which is dumb.

There's still potential for the princesses to be doing important shit we don't know about, and their powerlevel is always whatever is convenient to the script. But I really doubt the writers will capitalize on it. The sense of regality and that unreachable ivory tower feeling isnt really present anymore.

>>29302148
The show lost all of it's charm and uniqueness on the moment they began giving us half assed answers and fucking up the mystic world by making it more and more similar to ours.

Oh, but it's OK to fuck up like that because it's a show for little girls, not for us.
Because kids are stupid and happily swallow up whatever the post S02 team shits on their platter, right? That's how ALL animated shows work.

>>29302148
>Was it better back when we thought they were gods?

>almost immortal
>insanely powerful when compared to the average pony
>revered by the pones

They are still essentially gods. In some aspects they are even more godly than pagan gods. The Nordic ones for example were not immortal/ageless, they just kept eating Idun's apples who kept them young.

>>29302741
They are worthless rulers who can be defeated by practically whoever wants to try and must be saved by kids who are probably 1/100th their age, experience and skill.

Back on S01 and S02 we tought they could defeat anyone who menaced their land and only the fucking god of chaos was more powerful than them. (Don't get me started about how badly they fucked up Discord too.)

>>29302760
Read something that's not abrahamic religions, gods got defeated and outwitted fairly frequently

>>29302789
I don't give a steaming piece of shit about your hasdrone rationalization or off source examples to downplay Meghan, Jim and Haber's fuckup.

I only care about what I saw on the cartoon back them and the fucking pile of fail I'm seeing now.

>>29302870
Guess I won't give a shit about your opinion either then since it's just worthless raging with zero arguments :^)

>>29302912
> "It's a show for little girls but you MUST read something that's not abrahamic religions in order to fully enjoy it"

That's your argument to defend the abysmal writing and characterization loss of quality.
Take a look at it to see how stupid it is.

>>29302938
Are you fucking retarded or something? Where the shit did I say anything about you having to read something that is not abrahamic religion to enjoy the show? I was talking purely about their classification as god.

Take you tard medication dude.

>>29302952
> backpedaling

What a rich and fulfilling life of yours, Flabio.

>>29303036
>> backpedaling
Kek, point out the post where I mentioned enjoying the show you fucking moron.

Learn to read before you throw your little shitfit and maybe you won't look like a massive tool next time.

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>>29302653
Cadence and Twilight being princesses lacks the mystique that Celestia and Luna had in the first few seasons. Outside of checking in on Twilight and appearances when something major was happening in premieres and finales, Celestia and Luna were mostly distant characters in Canterlot with some power. Generally Cadence and Twilight aren't that and have either diminished what it means to be a princess or went around the mystique that surrounded the other princesses.

Also Celestia being less involved with Twilight and being overpowered by threats probably doesn't help her.

>>29303063
was meant for OP but whatever

>>29303045
> wanting to win an internet discussion

I'm sure it will make money appear on your pocket, hair on your head, muscle on your body and the love of your life on- oh wait.

But continue being DHX's whiteknight, seeing as you don't have anything better to do.

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>>29303067
>couldn't link to the post where I mention anything about the show's quality or enjoying it

I will accept your surrender.
Now shoo, you little shitnugget, it's already way past bedtime for you.

>>29303079
go back to derpibooru, mr. "my dog died pity me and muh autism"

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>>29303067
>But continue being DHX's whiteknight, seeing as you don't have anything better to do.

>says the guy who has nothing better to do than shitpost on a board for a show he supposedly hates

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>>29303100

>>29302148

No, because it always raised the question of why the mane 6 had to fix everything. Gods being purely good guys makes the challenges seem pointless. Only way to a sensible story in that case is way too dark for the show.

And I don't think we really know any more about them than in the early seasons.

Example: They were already Alicorns when they defeated Discord. How did they do it? Where exactly do they fit in pony history relative to the founding of Equestria and Starswirl?

However, I do agree that they are never seen to be as important as their position merits it should be.

>>29302148

Fuck off pleb, they are goddesses.

>>29302148
>when we thought they were gods
im so glad the show killed that shit, hated it
flurry heart being the only alicorn to ever be born was great

>>29302653
>But all she's really done as a princess has been the same usual friendship stuff, only with the cutiemap its like she's not even the one in control. Which is dumb.

The Cutie Map isn't that bad. It's just a plot gimmick. There have been way cheesier ones in things even meant for adults.

For instance, the Bat Signal. Where Batman gets called into action by some random object.

>>29303227
the problem is that it takes away autonomy from Twilight. Instead of doing princess she shes just blindly following another "higher authority".
Where before this authority was her teacher, Celestia. Now its an inanimate object. It makes the princesses seem even more irrelevant.

>>29303236

That pisses me off more because I'm a sunfag and really miss Celestia and the fact she's never had a proper episode of her own.

Twilight has always followed authority, though. It's part of her personality.

Celestia, Starswirl, if it isn't written in some book, it doesn't even exist. That's how she is.

>>29303142
>They were already Alicorns when they defeated Discord. How did they do it?
I think this was mentioned in the show during S4. Time for you and me to go rewatch it again.
>Where exactly do they fit in pony history relative to the founding of Equestria and Starswirl?
This was touched in The Journal of Two Sisters but not much explained. If you are vulnerable to include books as canon, The journal is a nice read with good lore exploring. Also it's written by one of original writers for the show AKR, so the writing is in tune with show's earlier seasons. I would recommend it to people who are interested in Celestia and Luna, and people disappointed by S6.

autists - like legitimate shut-in types - screamed for WORLDBUILDING, because they have no imagination and just want to ... *know* stuff

then of course hack writers only write what they know and, well, here's a season full of fucking manehattan episodes [I'll Be There For You starts playing]

like imagine being the kind of person who, after watching Jurassic Park, didn't immediately think WOW DINOSAURS ARE COOL, but instead took to twitter and demanded blueprints of the park from the guy who holds the boom mic. then argued with someone about whether the park's power supply could have adequately maintained the fences and enclosures while still powering the rest of the park. he he i d-dont want dinosaur porn guys, that would be l-lewd ^_^;

>>29303227
>Bat Signal
Batman is for kids, you sperg.

>>29302148
>No, because it always raised the question of why the mane 6 had to fix everything. Gods being purely good guys makes the challenges seem pointless. Only way to a sensible story in that case is way too dark for the show.

You are wrong on every level. Equestria being ruled by Gods doesn't mean you can't tell stories, it means you have to tell a different kind of story with a conflict other than "Oh no, the world is in danger for the nth time!" Just look at The Best Night Ever, aka still the best season finale in the series. Princess Celestia went down in powerlevel because the new writers were like you and had no imagination to write outside their comfort zone.

The premise of them being gods is stupid, plain and simple.

>>29304184
who brought that premise anyway?
Faust with her initial concepts or the assumptions of the fandom?

>>29302148
>Was it better back when we thought they were gods?
No, that was always retarded.

>Was it better back when they had an aura of mystique about them?
Absolutely. But that is because the show is generally good at creating exciting uncertainties, which we fill with theories and expectations. However the show will always fail to deliver when those uncertainties are made certain.

>>29304103

Batman is the Odysseus of our times you faggot.

>>29302148
It was much better when not erryone was a pretty pony princess

Now they're common enough that it lost the "special" feel they had back in S1&2, and let's not even talk about how they're usually portrayed as rather mundane and are easily defeated, even when working together...

>>29305839

Imagine both Celestia and Luna tamely submitting to your depraved sexual demands for the good of their pony subjects.

>>29302294
This

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>>29306149
Stop it. You're making me want to write awful depraved fetish greens that should never see the light of day.

>>29302148
One-hundred percent yes.

It's not even just the 'aura of mystique' about them as you put it - it's that they've lost virtually everything the show hinted at in the first place. Celestia used to have a personality - a playful, yet thoughtful princess who often seemed to be running things from behind the scenes. Luna was a blank slate at first, but we saw her struggling to adapt after a thousand year absence.

And then they ran everything into the ground. Celestia hasn't been more than a worf-effect victim or plot element for a few seasons now, and - in a towering irony - Luna has been completely unable to move on from her arc of... moving on. Literally every episode has been 'muh Nightmare, muh dreams'. Both have displayed staggering incompetence as a plot necessity, and neither has been given anything positive to remotely balance it out.

We don't even have to go into the god-or-not-god debate; just a bit of thoughtful storytelling around them would have gone a mile. It's entirely possible to maintain that 'aura of mystique' while still writing interesting stories.

>>29306149
Anon pls, I have a waifu, and my love for her only grows and strengthens

Though I would a Luna because reasons. Many reasons

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>>29302148
no. i hate when people cant explain their shit and just expect people to accept it.

besides, if they were gods there would be no conflict. every situation would already be won. i like that they have limits. i like that theres information they dont have. i like that theres stronger entities out there to give a feeling of a real world.

>>29306733
This.

Most people itt are just butthurt their fanfics were invalidated.

>>29306763
It's absolutely reasonable to have leaders who can be defeated, even if they can be called "gods" by some. What isn't so reasonable, is taking what made them interesting, unique, what gave some substance to their character and position, and throwing it away, making everybody and their cousin a princess/alicorn now

>>29302148
>Was it better back when we thought they were gods?
No, it was always a stupid idea and made for really shitty story-telling, compounded by the show making it rather apparent they aren't gods at all. Just set everyone up for disappointment.

>>29306733
> if they were gods there would be no conflict
Ignoring the fact that they can be gods while also having limits, the only reason there would be no conflict is if all conflict on the show revolved around fighting.

>>29306833
They're 'gods' in the same way that Kim Jung Un is, minus total fear-mongering.

>>29306733
You forget that FiM wasn't about Celestia, it was about ponies that were dealing with personal friendship problems on their own. Celestia was still a pony, and couldn't intervene in every aspect of her citizen's lives. She was clearly not omniscient.

Also, there was no conflict in Watchmen, right? Even if there is a god in the story, there are still characters who are human (ponies) who still have flaws, and the interaction wit ha god can be a story in itself.

>muh increasing power levels
I swear you fags came straight from DBZ.

Yes. They went from literal gods of the sun and moon to useless losers who can be captured by fucking PLANTS.

Every bit of lore building starting with the S2 finale has been a god awful train wreck.

>>29306854
>Also, there was no conflict in Watchmen, right?
watchmen was shit.

>I swear you fags came straight from DBZ
"theres always a bigger fish" predates dragonball z, friend.

>>29306852
Kim Jung Un isn't over a thousand years old and doesn't have magic.

>>29306924
>"theres always a bigger fish" predates dragonball z, friend.
Yeah, but the people who post here don't.

>>29306996
that makes no sense.

>>29306163

By "should never see the light of day" I assume you mean "should be posted repeatedly."

>>29306935
According to the North Korean people he is and does.

>>29306935
No you're right, he just has a fucking nuclear arsenal.

>>29306896

You realize you have to cheat on this shit a bit as a kids' show, right? I mean, if every single issue in the show was bad guy shows up, two demigods immediately blow it the fuck away, there wouldn't be any useful conflict for the heroines, right?

>>29306163
>>29285431
prove it faget.

>>29307119
>Muh little kids show
>Muh instantly blown away
This is a fucking awful argument. Allow me to explain why.

>1. It presumes that making the Sisters powerful means they would automatically resolve every single situation instantaneously
It isn't difficult to develop a situation in which they can't instantly resolve everything, without worfing them to literally everything. Maybe defeating the Big Bad demands being in more than two places at once? Maybe they're busy protecting ponies or cities from harm, while the heroes search out a solution to defeating them? Maybe the Big Bad holds ponies hostage to try and force a stand-down? Or maybe they're just interested in standing back and letting their ponies learn, as multiple episodes suggested?

>2. It presumes that because they were powerful, nothing can rival them.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with entities powerful or cunning enough to compete with the Sisters. Just because they're that "gods", doesn't mean absolutely nothing else can push that level. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with powerful enemies contesting with them, provided that the Sisters are shown as putting up a meaningful struggle against them. The problem I have is that they have been tapped out by a parade of foes while barely responding, very few of whom make sense.

>3. It presumes that defeat - and victory - must be instantaneous
Yeah, kids are not fucking stupid. They can understand season-length plots easily, let alone multi-episode arcs. Part of the reason we have this train of worfings is that everything is locked into 44 minutes at most, an unreasonably restrictive limitation on the plot that demands lazy writing to establish foes as "powerful". Given more time to work in, there would absolutely be plenty of room to write meaningful interactions between the Sisters and foes while doing proper justice to both.

>>29306733
>besides, if they were gods there would be no conflict

I don't have the picture, but there was a mini comic of Superman being Superman, and just saving people. Each person he saved, he logged their name in blue. As you keep scrolling down, you start to see names appear in red. The further down you go, the more names in red appear, to the point where all you see is red names, even one of the people he saved earlier name appears in red. You can have god characters fail, and have conflicts, it just people fail to see you can make god fail.

>>29302148
I had actually thought about this somewhat recently. Feel free to cringe at me or whatever.

I feel like characters or a world where we have more mystery and less infomation tend to be very popular. And that's why Season 1 and 2 got as popular as it did.

Take a look at any recent game which attracts a ton of youtubers, a large fandom and as per usual a ton of kids.

five nights at freddys and undertale, as well as a shit ton of other games have one thing in common. You're not given the infomation straight away, you're given bits and have to figure out what may have been with a limited amount of evidence.

beyond fn@f there is a backstory and that hooked many people
beyond undertale there was characters like gaster, the talks of determination and everything else.

These mysteries are in my opinion one of the biggest contributers to their fandom and game. I wish the show would have more of these.

Admittively I only played the first fn@f then got off the ride quickly, but I'm more invested in undertale and another game to come to mind is Warframe which is my most played Steam game with lore scattered throughout the game in various ways.

>>29307119
> I mean, if every single issue in the show was bad guy shows up, two demigods immediately blow it the fuck away, there wouldn't be any useful conflict for the heroines, right?

Good thing the show is about friendship problems and not monsters of the week. If you have to cheat to make a plot work, then that's a blatant sign that the plot doesn't fit with the characters or the setting. But you have to fit those fight scenes in somehow, right?

>>29307300
No, you've definitely got something there. The early seasons presented a general view of a wide-open world where a lot of things could happen, and kicked off people running in a million different directions speculating at a million different things.

And I also think you've got a point in that lately not only have we lacked a steady run of further tidbits and hints to continue fueling that speculation, but what we have gotten in many cases has killed what speculation there was: For instance, people used to speculate wildly on what other nations might exist around Equestria; not only have we lacked further hints, but what we have seen of other races' lands is that they're all single-dimension caricatures that seemingly exist only to be "improved" by ponies. Inside Equestria, fantastic legends of ancient wizards and buried artifacts have been traded out for Manehattan episodes and cars.

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>>29307512
>people used to speculate wildly on what other nations might exist around Equestria
http://vikonaut.deviantart.com/art/Equestria-and-beyond-rev-8-1-253465186

Don't remind me.

>>29307249
if a god fails, what chance does a mortal have?

>>29307300
You're not wrong, Leonidas.
Mystery is a big draw for people as it gives them something to talk about beyond the cut-and-dry facts.
My problem with MLP is that the word was mysterious, not because of the lore, but because it was new and unexplored.
Nothing wrong with that, but as the show went on, it became apparent to me that the lore served, not to expand the world, but to provide a plot, and that the writers didn't give much thought into the world's history.

>>29307634
Literally the exact map I was thinking of when I posted that. Hardly the only one, though.

Fuck, I miss the times when we had so many ideas just... out there.

>>29307674
There have been several mortals succeed when god has failed stories throughout history. At first it was used as lessons, to show gods, just like humans, have flaws, and sometimes a mortal doesn't have that same flaw. Now it's more of a fantasy trope where god isn't always right despite being god, and the mortal knows what's up.

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>>29307743
One did.

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>>29302148

Definitely better before.

Whole show went to shit as soon as Cadence was vomited onto the script with the soul crushing disaster of Twilight following shortly after..

>>29307223

Holy shit what a dumb wall of text. My argument was not "it's a kid's show so it has to be shit." That is a dumb argument made for actually stupid episodes.

However, the fact that it is aimed at kids does impose thematic and format-related limitations on what it can do. Anyone who can't see that is an idiot.

I'm also actually pissed at the really dumb ways the show has done this at times, letting Celestia get one-punched by a bug would be at the top of my list.

But it's just undeniable the show was going to have to use often artificial means to get the Sisters out of the way when the plot demanded, because just having deities fix every single thing that happened would ruin the show, and so would even having it implied that every single victory was just because they stood aside and let the characters do it (even though they could have just zapped the villain instantly).

>>29307871
>But it's just undeniable the show was going to have to use often artificial means to get the Sisters out of the way when the plot demanded
I deny it. They did it with Discord in Return of Harmony. The princesses could not defeat him, because when they defeated him, they had to use the Elements of Harmony to do so, and now the EoH were no longer theirs to control. That wasn't artificial, that was a perfectly natural progression.

The show isn't using artificial means to remove them from the plot because it's a show targeted at children. The show is doing it because the current team couldn't collectively write its' way out of a wet paper bag.

>>29307223
Using your post as a jumping point, it boggles my mind how people think that saying Celestia and Luna are technically gods means they're these super powerful undefeatable beings.
I mean, they probably shouldn't be getting so easily dumped on considering how they (Celestia specifically) have many years under their pelts to train their magic and combat tactics or whatever.
But being 'gods' wouldn't mean they're unbeatable.
I mean, Aphrodite is a god, but I'm pretty sure she'd lose to someone like kid Naruto in a fight.

>>29307919

Well if you're talking specifically S6 shit I'm certainly not going to make any excuses for the bullshit that went on in that season.

>>29307871
Ah, fair enough.

Agree with you there, but I think there are a huge number of "artificial means" that could be used to avoid them fixing everything without the ridiculous levels its sunk to. They could easily still be characterized as "demigods" and not have all conflict pushed away.

>>29307956

I think the show has in fact shied away from that for "for kids" reasons, partly that the show is aimed at a global market and actually calling Celestia and Luna anything like deities would piss off Christians and mudslimes as well.

Or for that matter angry Internet atheists who flipped their shit at episodes like Feeling Pinkie Keen. (This being an episode where fun-ruiners ruined everything by going all euphoric about it.)

However, from the very first episode opening art montage, the Sisters have been portrayed as, at the very least, nearly divine.

>>29308002
>Feeling Pinkie Keen
That was a fun episode with a terribly-characterized Twalot, but yeah, the fedoretards definitely fucked that one up.

>>29308002
Oh yeah, I definitely understand them wanting to stay away from the big G or anything religion-esque. Frankly, the FPK situation probably made that a set-in-stone policy if it wasn't before.

I was more talking in general terms, "demigod-like", as well.

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>implying you can make ponies strong by spoonfeeding safety to them
>implying using one's full godhood at all times would do anything but stagnate your subjects

>>29307300
I'm going to take your premise, and spin it in a different light.

Everything need to start small, we know that, we also know that for something to stay "fresh" it needs to grow. And unfortunately, a lot of things can't do the grow part right. It either removes old stories to fit the growing world, add new stuff that contradicts old stuff, or changes the old stuff by replacing parts of it and adding new stuff into it to try and make it "fit". But instead of ragging on stuff that did it bad, I'm going to praise one example that did it right.

>Codename:Kids Next Door
When KND started, there was no Sector V, just a house with a big ass tree on top of it. There was no organization with several branches to it's name, it was just five kids fight villains of the week. The Delightful Children from Down the Lane were just another villain, until the movie, when you learn they were members of Sector Z, and even how they got to be where they are now.

The world of KND got bigger, but so did everything else. Nothing stayed the same for long, and questions that were asked in the beginning like why is Numbuh 1 bald, who builds this stuff, who is the KND, all got answered by the end.

MLP on the other hand is doing it wrong. While the world is getting bigger, only the new stuff fits with it, and all of the old stuff stayed small. Celestia was interesting at first because she was the biggest thing in the show. Now, she's just a drop in the bucket. And this isn't just her problem either, all of the old stuff stayed the same despite the world getting bigger. Old stuff being reiterated but written in a different way, old characters having no expansion outside of a few episodes, and ideas that aren't properly explored (everything relating to Twilight).

It's saddening that such an interesting world has nothing to show for any of it's growths, and that is what I think people don't like MLP like they used to.

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>>29302148
>>back when they had an aura of mystique about them

Yes, it was way better back then.
Discord was a mistake. Chrysalis OHKO-ing Celestia looked bad, but it could have been forgiven.

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>>29310040
I'll dump some extra heresy 4U.

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>>29310044

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>>29310050

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>>29310056

>>29309969
why was he bald?

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>>29310064

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>>29310080

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>>29310092

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>>29302148
>back when we thought they were gods
who the hell ever thought so?

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>>29310107
The fags who actually watched the show.

>>29310072
Nigel wasn't the leader of Sector V, Abby was, and her team went on a mission that had something to do with the Delightful Children. Something went wrong, and as a result, he's permanently bald, Abby step down as leader, and Nigel stepped up.