Why is this such a love-or-hate-it show? In my opinion, I think

A lot of important characters get killed for really stupid reasons. On the other hand, one could say it represents how stupid war itself is

>>15766931
>characters sometimes behave very stupidly or strangely simply because the plot requires it
>the middle third really fucking drags, it just degenerates in to "titans are doing some cartoonishly evil thing that it makes no sense that people would tolerate or be able to sweep under the rug, we have to fight them!" with no real plot advancement, and that lasts for a good 15 episodes

>>15766931
Don't know about other peeps, but I loved it at first (15-17 or so episode). As the show went on I started liking it less and less.
Mainly because I disliked like most of the new cast or at the very least I was indifferent towards them. Titans were boring, underdeveloped and most of them were just eh characters. Yeah there were more evil than the Zeon, but that's really easy to write.

Also too many times suits were stolen, like after the 50th time Katz and Fa stole them they could have done SOMETHING, at a certain point it just became stupid. Haman at the very least made it interesting in the later half, but then they gave up on exposition completely and at times it felt as if I missed an episode.

I just think it has a few annoying characters. Shit posting makes it look worse than it is tho.

Why the FUCK DO YOU IDIOTS STILL REPLY TO THESE

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>>15766931
>love-or-hate-it
I don't usually offer my opinion needlessly but just to prove you wrong, I LIKE Zeta Gundam. I think it's somewhat good, but not great and have no strong feelings about it.

>>15767010
This one was a serious question. Wasn't bashing it just legitimately wondering

>>15766931
It's heavily flawed, but also very good. So I guess whether you love it or hate it or not depends on whether you can accept something having flaws.

It's just a few contrarian dickheads on here that shit on it

>>15766995
>characters sometimes behave very stupidly or strangely

So they're like people IRL?

>>15770893
>They don't like what I like so they MUST be contrarian shitheads

anon you can do better

>>15766931
I liked it more on the second watch.

>>15766931
The writing feels extremely compromised by the need to have a fight scene in every episode, which I'm guessing was something the studio demanded. It eats into the time that would be better used to expand on the story more, and it limits the rate at which the story can progress because they always need to leave room open for a contrived reason for there to be a battle. You can really tell that most of the fights aren't supposed to be there because no one dies in them and both sides just retreat after exchanging a few shots. If instead we had more conversation scenes where the characters discussed their motivations, feelings about their current objectives, etc. the plot would make more sense and the characters would seem less annoying.

>>15771475
Sounds like your ideal show is Turn A Gundam then.

>>15766995
It's also a bit repetitive in points. There was nothing much gained by retreading Four's plot, and Rosamy was just doing it a third time.
On aggregate it was good though.

>>15771475
They did this with IBO and looked how it turned out.

>>15771481
Correct. I think the fact that from the 90s onwards mecha shows moved away from having fight scenes in every episode basically proves me right. It makes it impossible to tell a complex story well, and it dilutes the impact of each battle. The original Macross also has several episodes without fights, and it's amazing how much more engaging the story is as a result of being given that room to breathe.

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>>15771475
>The writing feels extremely compromised by the need to have a fight scene in every episode, which I'm guessing was something the studio demanded.
I agree.
>If instead we had more conversation scenes where the characters discussed their motivations, feelings about their current objectives, etc. the plot would make more sense and the characters would seem less annoying.
I disagree. Those are a distinguishing feature of Tomino's writing and are what makes it good. There are means to convey characterization in a more nuanced and valuable way than having the characters directly spew it at you. I see no merit in making your characters more "likable" at the expense of good writing.

>>15771501
You act like it would be unrealistic for the characters in Zeta, who live in close proximity and spend all their time together, to ever have normal conversations. I personally find it much more unrealistic that every character in Zeta seems to be a seething mass of suppressed rage and resentment that are completely incapable of communicating with each other in a healthy way.

>>15771509
Well, I guess it depends on your personal experience but
>discussing their motivations, feelings about current objectives etc.
doesn't sound to me like a "normal" conversation.
>suppressed rage and resentment that are completely incapable of communicating with each other in a healthy way
Rage and resentment are a natural part of communication but they are not usually emotions that you can readily express in any situation or in any company. By necessity a measure of suppressed negative emotion is an element in any societal situation. There is nothing abnormal about this. And a lot of characters in Zeta are stuck in a situation where they don't really have an emotional outlet.
Also do you realize that a prevailing majority of the population of our planet would look down such sissy things as "discussing feelings"? I was talking about "emotional outlet" above but even the people that find an emotional outlet in their close ones only rarely do so by discussing their feelings.

Having the characters discuss their feelings is not necessarily more realistic and in most cases it just shows a failure on the side of the writer to portray character in a convincing way.

>>15771533
Characters in Macross discuss feelings and their goals without it feeling like the audience is being force-fed characterization. I can't tell if you just have an extremely negative view of people's ability to communicate or if you are doing what many Zeta fans do and attributing the show's shortcomings to "the genius of Tomino, you just don't get it" when in reality they exist precisely because Tomino was NOT able to do what he wanted in Zeta. Look at Turn-A to see the kind of show Tomino makes when he has more creative freedom.

>>15771544
>I can't tell if you just have an extremely negative view of people's ability to communicate
It's probably that.
>attributing the show's shortcomings to "the genius of Tomino, you just don't get it" when in reality they exist precisely because Tomino was NOT able to do what he wanted in Zeta
Just like he was not able to do what he wanted to do in any of his other shows.
>Look at Turn-A to see the kind of show Tomino makes when he has more creative freedom
A bland, safe, intellectually unchallenging show?

Who would have thought that a show about people's inability to communicate would feature...gasp! people incapable of communicating.

>>15771569
>Turn-A
>"A bland, safe, intellectually unchallenging show?"
I see this discussion was doomed from the start.

>>15771573
I understand why people like it but it's not relevant to my interests. See this as my personal opinion.

But to not recognize that the writing style in Zeta is characteristic of Tomino is ignorance I can't attribute to personal preference.

>>15766931
/m/ only deals in extremes, you can only like or hate something

>>15771492
Well for what it's worth, I sort of agree with you. Turn A is my favorite full length Gundam series.

However, the very strengths you mentioned are also the biggest weaknesses(too much downtime, too much talking, too plodding at times). It ended up wasting too much time, and then rushing at the end to fit the episode limit.

A happy medium has yet to be made, in my opinion.

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>>15771569
>Turn A Gundam
>bland, safe, intellectually unchallenging show\

lol wtf are you talking about

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>>15771569
>A bland, safe, intellectually unchallenging show

damn. the bait was long winded on this one. you had me fooled until this comment.

>>15771686
>>15771687
The show is OK on its own but there is nothing of interest in it that hasn't been explored with way more depth and complexity in Tomino's other shows.

>>15771823
It's frustrating because I would need to write pages and pages worth of analysis to explain the full extent of how wrong you are and I just can't be bothered.

Zeta's a bit of a mess IMO, it drags in part, and the characters aren't quite fleshed out properly, despite having 50 episodes to do it. ZZ they same deal, neither of them have much direction. I feel Tomino had a lot of ideas for both that never made it into the final show.

I'm not sure if it was due to Sunrise interffering with it, but if so it does make me wonder how he was able to pull of 0079 in the first place.

>>15771895
>it does make me wonder how he was able to pull of 0079 in the first place.
Massive executive meddling.
Tomino's an auteur, and a lot of auteurs are better when they have people to hold back their excesses and prop them up in weak areas.

>>15771855
I feel the same way.

>>15771686
>>15771687
Epic samefag. Turd A is wideky considered a low point in the series and flopped massively in Japan.

>>15771973
The Japanese love SEED, does that mean it's one of the best? I haven't watched Turn A myself so I can't talk about the quality of it. But the masses are simple and easily entertained.

>>15771973
SEED was massively successful in Japan, so it shows how much their collective taste is worth.

>>15771494
>2 votes "I've only seen 0079"

>>15766931
The writing just isn't very good. There are good moments, but a couple of good moments here and there don't make up for the series' faults. Of course, there are some good things, like a pretty solid soundtrack, some good character designs, and what some people may find to be good mobile suit designs. Sometimes it does feel like a proper expansion of the world 0079 built. Most of the time, it's full of tired, nonsensical melodrama that makes you question why you should even care. Amuro's behavior and station made sense, and he got to grow as a character. Kamille could have been replaced by a million other more capable characters in Zeta, and anytime he made progress, he just took a step back. I liked Zeta, but it's kind of easy to see why it's polarizing.

>>15774230
You have problems reading emotions

>>15766931
>episode one
>Kamille, a child, fist fights every other person he meets
>for no inexplicable reason, he just charges ahead and fist fights everyone


that's why. the entire series is full of unrealistic behaviors, and worse, inconsistencies.

>>15774533
>episode one
>Kamille, a clearly insecure, visibly neuritic teenager with family issues, punches a smug jock officer that publicly made fun of him
>panics when he is arrested as a terrorist by elite army officers he is prejudiced against
>"I'm so fucked up"
Oh, wow. No, consistency.

>>15774550
he's shit. the writing is shit.

>>15771485

Rosammy's arc was really important though, because it establishes that the newtype connections Kamille had with Four and Amuro had with Lalah were'nt actually romances. It is because his newtype connection with Rosamy taking on the appearance of a sibling relationship that he and the audience realizes that what happened with the past newtype connections were not romances either ( Kamille explicitly says to Rosamy that he though he loved Four as his GF but that actually they were more like him and Rosamy).

I hear people saying that there are issues with Zeta's writing, like repetitive bits and bits that don't need to be there. It took me till my 3rd watching through it to really pick up all the pieces and see how much was going on plot wise and character development wise. It is actually really subtle and diverse stuff, that lingers under the veil of a repetitive melodrama. If you don't really sit down and make sure you catch all the details it won't be that appealing.

>>15771492
But 90s and 00s mecha anime are usually allot worse than 80s mecha anime.

I personally think that the constant battles are important and a positive because it justifies why everyone are constantly irritable shit heads lashing out at each other - THEY NEVER CATCH A BREAK. Part of Zeta's charm is that it really exemplifies a feeling of exhaustion, uncertainty, confusion, and constant threat, and the neuroticism and lack of proper communication that comes from that, through every aspect of the show. If not for the structural elements of the show, like the constant battles, and the obtuse and jarring character interactions, then the newtype connections which allow a real momentary break from that, wouldn't be such a powerful thing, and hence the main theme of early UC would have less of an impact and newtypism would have little reason to be so important in Zeta.And most of them are well choreographed and the mecha design was incredible, so why not have a battle every episode?

>>15774150
At least they're being honest

>>15774533
It's almost like everyone has to always act logically. Good writing is showing people acting irrational do to a plausible context (Kamille is an angsty and volatile teen who has neglectful, even sociopathic parents and lives under a fascist regime).

I mean come the fuck on. Does good writing to you mean people know the right thing to do at all times?

>>15774750
This.

Zeta is very dense and subtle. Essentially you really need think when you watch it to get all the layers. There are a lot of very heavy themes in this show that are heavily implied and are based more on interaction and reaction than on the actual words being said between characters.

Essentially, what people say is not always exactly what they think. An empathetic person would understand.

>>15774791

If all you needed was empathy the vast majority of people who saw it would understand, because most people do have the ability to empathise.

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>>15774799
>vast majority
This is 4chan and /m/.

Compare /m/'s opinion with the general fandom's opinion of the last few decades.

>>15774750
>And most of them are well choreographed
thought you had a point up until there

No, having the Zeta tussle a little with the Titans until the bad guys lost an arm or two and escaped every single fucking episode unless they were Jerid's girlfriend doesn't make for gripping fight scenes, especially not towards the middle where most battles had no real point to them other than to meet the battle quota. Just some mooks dying because the main characters aren't allowed to get killed off until the last Kill 'Em All Tomino episodes isn't very interesting.

For the first dozen episodes when there was more at stake than the producers' ire there was more to the battles than robots swinging around lightsabers it could be said that they were good because the plot was still moving forward at that point as well. I lost count how many times someone got grabbed and about to be finished off when an ally came to rescue at the very last minute. At some point it became obvious that the melodrama took greater precedence over the coherence of the action when Quattro, a OYW veteran, fails to kill Reccoa, a spy with practically no mobile suit experience, in plain fucking sight despite Quattro having the high ground in every way imaginable and telling her directly that he'll kill her, just so Reccoa could keep living on as Scirocco's bitch.

>>15774807

Just because they don't display empathy does not mean they don't have it.

The writing in Zeta is beyond atrocious.

>>15774791
>An empathetic person would understand.
Not really. It's a lot more complicated than that which is the point the series is trying to make.
Different people are different and its hard to understand something unless you have personal experience with it.
The original novelization had a lot of passages dealing with that. For example:
"Their Newtype ability gave the crew of White Base a feeling of camaraderie. Still that doesn't mean that they could get along individually as persons."
or
"Newtype abilities gives one the opportunity to understand other people only in as far as one can understand oneself".

Understanding implies knowledge and experience of something.
Don't assume that if you can relate to the characters everybody should be able to do so.
Maybe the best thing you can learn is to assume nothing.

>>15766931
It's not. It's universally beloved and frequently ranks among the top 3 Gundam shows. /m/ does not represent the entire fandom.

>>15775261
Yes, but who gives a damn about the opinion of normalfags.

>>15766931
Quite possibly Tomino's worst show. Even something like G-Reco is massively superior.

Bad writing at times, especially with the Women. Fa is totally useless, Reccoa randomly switches sides, and Emma doesn't do anything.

Plus Katz was annoying.

>>15775428
You haven't seen Brain Powered then.

>>15775582
But Brain Powerd is Tomino's best show.

>>15774270
No, not really. The emotional aspects of Zeta are easy to follow, they're just not handled well very often, and the repetition of Kamille's actions and that of others is tiring filler more often than not. Not everyone needs to be logical, because that'd be boring, but the writers have to follow a certain logic or school of thought to tie things together correctly, and they just flat-out don't.

>>15776089
What repetition?
What parts lacked logic according to you?

>>15774810
>Reccoa
Just finished watching Zeta a few days ago and this bitch pissed me off so much

>>15774811
>the average person on 4chan is good at relating and understanding other people

>>15776250
Everything regarding Four just fell into a bit of a loop until her death. The entire thing with Rosamia was ridiculously stupid, it shouldn't have gotten that far, especially since other characters had suspicions of her. Reccoa's arc as a character needed some of more finessing, it was understated to the point that, yes, you can see why she made the leaps she did, but it just didn't feel organic. Everything with the women was terrible. Jerid was also terrible and basically stuck in a loop. He's lose against Kamille, which sometimes meant the deaths of his partners, then ran back kicking up dirt, got a higher position despite being incompetent, and then did it all again. Kamille would learn harsh emotional lessons about love and loss only to shit the bed next arc for some woman or other, which also had some harsh consequences for the people he was supposed to be working with. I haven't watched Zeta in two years, but it feels like a lot of the cyclical aspects of Zeta only existed to make the series longer. It may have been better if it was shorter, since a lot of the fluff and nonsense may have been cut out for streamlining.

>>15776585
Please excuse the errors.

>>15776585
>Reccoa's arc as a character needed some of more finessing, it was understated to the point that, yes, you can see why she made the leaps she did, but it just didn't feel organic

Also how they throw in at the end that she was defiled/raped. It felt really out of nowhere, but maybe it was more obvious to Japanese viewers and the subs were bad.

>>15766931
Because newfags can't handle watching slower paced shows and need explosions, plot twists, and memes every episode or they get bored.

>>15776623
Pretty much every episode of Zeta had a fight, even when it wasn't needed and felt forced.

>>15774810

Set up and choreography isn't the same thing. The set ups are meant to be repetitive because you are meant to feel their exhaustion at constantly fighting these petty battles of attrition all day every day - for the reasons specified in my post >>15774750 .

You also did'nt catch that Quattro hesitated because he felt guilty for a second, hence why Reccoa got away.

> I lost count how many times someone got grabbed and about to be finished off when an ally came to rescue at the very last minute

That was also to point out the constant sense of danger - because no one was particularly overpowered, even Kamille was constantly getting bailed out. Everyone needed to be feeling like that day could be there last - so to fuel the characters neuroticism and constant irritability and threat.

This is what I was pointing out before - people are complaining about structural elements of the show that add on to the shows themes. It isn't that often that the very structure of an anime actually contributes to it's themes. It is part of why Zeta is one of the most innovative mecha series ever.


>>15776585
One of early UCs themes is about how people continually make the same mistakes and don't learn from their failures. For example when you look at the links between MSG, Zeta and CCA - the Amuro/Lalah situation plays out over and over again because Tomino wanted us to know that " humanity never learns no matter how many times it repeats it's mistakes."

With Reccoa, she was getting developed for a good 15 episodes prior to her defection - so it felt plenty organic to me.

> Kamille would learn harsh emotional lessons about love and loss only to shit the bed next arc for some woman or other.

That isn't accurate. Four and Rossamy were essentially two parts of the same arc, and were required to get out what Tomino wanted.>>15774750 There were no other women Kamille was heavily involved with for a whole arc. Sarah was close, but she was Katz's interest, not Kamille's.

>>15776432
Tomino in the 80s, was terrible at writing women. better in Turn A and I guess G-Reco?

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Did he actually do anything wrong? Other than be a turbochad I mean

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>>15766931
>Why is this such a love-or-hate-it show?

it's not. Zeta was decent. It's just that /m/ is full of contrarians and being an older anime it's easy to pick apart and make fun of it.

I experienced 0079 a long time ago back in the early 00s
I recently read the origin and loved it and then immediately watched Zeta and now watching ZZ.
While I enjoyed Zeta and a bit annoyed with ZZ at the moment, there seems to be a drop in quality. Was it always like this? Is the origin that different from 0079? My memory is a bit hazy.