>Hasn't history proven that Daikun's vision of a

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hurrr true daikunism has never been tried

Syam Vist hid the Big Box o' History so there's no way Daikun would've known.

>>15750121
What is this universal constant that you think Deikunism vilifies?

>>15750881

Gravity.

>>15750892
It's a metaphor.

>It don't mean butt if it ain't got that jutt.
>-Degwin Zabi

>>15750121
Maybe if newtype abilities actually became a large enough percentage of the general population to form their own society, but they never do.

>>15750908
So, Cosmic Era?

>>15750892
Let me phrase it this way. What is it that Deikunism "vilified" that was more beneficial than harmful to the human race?

>>15750917
>Cosmic Era
I honestly never watched SEED so I don't know.

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You tried OP. But you underestimate /m/'s inherent autism. Before /r9k/, /jp/ and the pony show board this was 4chan's most autistic board. That we've been outclassed in the years does not mean the cancer levels have dropped.

>>15751002

Again, gravity. I assume the original poster meant the Federation mind, but I answered in jest and appear to have been taken seriously. Presuming he did mean the Federation then I would personally agree that they did more good than harm since the construction of a multitude of space colonies on two seperate occasions is a massive good that an impersonal and distant government with no representation doesn't overshadow. At least for me,
though of course, opinion will vary.

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>>15750908
>Maybe if newtype abilities actually became a large enough percentage of the general population to form their own society, but they never do.

Have you watched the show? You can UNDERSTANDING all you want, but that doesn't turn people into goo Evangelion-style. They can stil disagree or find each other disgusting or find that the clash of theor very being requires them to kill each other.

Newtype magic doesn't fix shit.

>>15751062
That's why I said "maybe" since in UC it could never happen making it irrelevant.

I don't actually buy that Deikun is right though. He's simply naive.

Seriously, what anyone here know about the ideas of Daikun is through a speech translated from Japanese, plus the words of several extremists. Had Zeon Daikun ever written a proper manifest of his ideals? None.

>>15751132
Your point?

>>15751046
It's not so much that I took you seriously but rather that I was serious in my question.
I guess saying "has been more beneficial than harmful" was not very appropriate. Maybe in would be more fitting to say "is more beneficial than harmful as a long term strategy" or even better "will be more beneficial than harmful as a long term strategy considering the current state of affairs".
If you mean the Federation as in "We hate those guys" I think a political theory should be more abstract than this. So what is it according to you that Deikun considered harmful in EF's government and do you think that it would have ultimately been more beneficial as a long term strategy than any alternative in the political and cultural situation presented in the series?

>>15751136
We can't really determine exactly what his ideas were and if they were good or not.
>>15751132
I always felt that people exaggerate just how much of a central proposition Newtypes were in his theory. It seems to me to be more like "Spacenoids should be independent! P.S. We also get superpowers."

>>15751136
I mean that yes, with the current condition of U.C, Zeonism may very well be harmful. But we actually know little about what Daikun really envisioned, the original version of Zeonism. The Zabis, Haman, even Char, they all twisted ideals so as to fit their goals.

Also, we must look at the question of if the current situation can be changed in a plausible way in the foreseeable future, would Zeonism do something good?

2.

>>15751132
We can only judge what we do know not what we can't know.

>>15751183
The thing is that we don't know that much."Zeon" actually has next to nothing to do with the actual person it was named after.

>>15751211
On that note, did Tomino intentionally used the name Zeon to mention the Israel (Zion) indirectly?

>>15750907
>I'm Bizarro Kai
>I'm Regular Kai

>>15751218
>The Zabi family were jews
Not likely

>>15751062
>Newtype magic doesn't fix shit.
No shit. It's what happens when you confuse Nietzsche's Superman with an actual "superman".

>>15751347
Newtypes have absolutely nothing to do with Nietzche's Übermensch.

>>15751218
Maybe. Even though 0079 is specifically Space WWII Eiji Otsuka has said Tomino was taking inspiration for the conflict from Israel and Palestine.

But if you follow that allegory Zeon would be the Palestinians and I don't know if Tomino has ever said anything about it himself so I take it with a grain of salt and personally wouldn't overthink it.

>>15751144

> "will be more beneficial than harmful as a long term strategy considering the current state of affairs"

The original state of affairs that the Federation was reacting to was that Earth was over-crowded and they reacted with a long term strategy by creating a huge swath of new land to house people in the Colonies. It's only after Zeon started pushing for representation that the current state of affairs started to change, and almost as quickly as it started to change Degwin took over and started militarizing before the new faction of Zeon/Side 3 started dropping Colonies and killing people en masse. Zeon Zum Deikun might have had a more beneficial long term strategy to offer, but Degwin and the Zabis didn't. Even after that though, the Federation seem more beneficial given that they almost completely rebuild the Colonies and rehouse the remaining population again within a few years.

> what is it according to you that Deikun considered harmful in the EF's government

Polluting the Earth from what little we know. Contolism was his big bag, and newtype theory was born as a way to demonstrate why Contolism would be a good idea (by theorizing humanity would evolve it we did it). And no, I don't think it'd be helpful personally, since moving in to space with no plan on how to move further than a few light seconds is no help at all to humanity as a species. Earth might be a cradle, but it's better to stay in the cradle until you know what you're doing than to venture out and then just sit there outside it.

>>15751211

If Zeon Zum Deikun was a historical figure holding off on judgement due to a lack of information might be advisable because we'd know for definite there was more to him than we do know. He's a fictional character though, and what we know is probably not much less than what was created for him and knowable. Just because that isn't much, doesn't mean we can't make some kind of judgement on him or the movement spawned in his name.

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OP's soul is weighed down by gravity like the unevolved fed brute he is

>>15751403
>Palestinians
>Zeon
good goyim

>>15753850
>reacted with a long term strategy by creating a huge swath of new land to house people in the Colonies
It was an apt reaction to an emergency but independence movements are a natural consequence of colonialism.

>Polluting the Earth from what little we know.
Again it doesn't seem to me that preserving Earth in itself is a central proposition in his theory. That sort of thing is usually a matter of resources.
Although the common assumption is that Deikun insisted that everyone should move to space as a central tenet of his philosophy I don't think there is anything to suggest that. Rather it seems to me the proposition was that Spacenoids should stop depending for resources on Earth's government and completely abandon it.
Ultimately the great problem of UC is that the split between Spacenoid and Earthnoids became a symbol of social status and a source of ethnic prejudice, which also seems to me to stem naturally from such an arrangement.
So I guess the question is to what extent achieving independence early on could have prevented the further development of such tension that led to the downfall of the EF and to what extent the very existence of such tension prevented the achievement of independence.

Further, the series, Zeta in particular, has some criticisms of liberal government and those also seem to be present in that Deikun speech that gets posted here once in a while. Do you find those criticisms to be not valid or trivial in the long term?

>>15754013

> independence movements are a natural consequence of colonialism.

I don't disagree, but how sympathetic or even righteous those movements are heavily depend on their actions. And Zeons paint them so ugly there's no reason to support them or believe they were right.

> Rather it seems to me the proposition was that Spacenoids should stop depending for resources on Earth's government

I disagree, especially when reading the speech from Zeta (http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16460). His words there indicate he thinks space is a frontier all of mankind needs to face for the good of the species because it's harshness suppresses individuality and forces people to band together and work for the common good.

> I guess the question is to what extent achieving independence early on could have prevented the further development of such tension that led to the downfall of the EF and to what extent the very existence of such tension prevented the achievement of independence.

I think it's an erroneous question that implies that a downfall of the Federation through violence is inevitable really, and that it's better to question whether independence could have been achieved without such levels of conflict. Which I think it could, especially when looking to Riah, who achieved it with a short burst of contained violence. Yes, I'm aware Zeon helped, but the point is Riah used minimal violence, got what they wanted and then cooperated with the Federation as a partner.

> Zeta in particular, has some criticisms of liberal government and those also seem to be present in that Deikun speech that gets posted here once in a while. Do you find those criticisms to be not valid or trivial in the long term?

I find Deikun's criticisms of individuality to be invalid personally, yes. He believes the good of the nation is more important and I do not agree. They make for interesting reading though, and it's a pity there isn't more of it in the shows to give them more meat.

>>15750908
Haman refused to let herself understand Kamille

Scirocco and Kamille couldn't understand one another

Char and Amuro probably understood one another but neither could accept the other

>>15755080
>how sympathetic or even righteous those movements are heavily depend on their actions.
Such considerations are irrelevant to the current discussion. If independence movements are a natural consequence of colonialism the reason for that is colonialism itself. A handful of people and their personal ambitions are insignificant in the grand scheme of history.

>His words there indicate he thinks space is a frontier all of mankind needs to face for the good of the species because it's harshness suppresses individuality and forces people to band together and work for the common good
How does this contradict the idea that Spacenoids should stop depending for resources on Earth's government rather than support it?

>I think it's an erroneous question that implies that a downfall of the Federation through violence is inevitable really
I have suggested no such thing.
>it's better to question whether independence could have been achieved without such levels of conflict.
Precisely my question.

>I find Deikun's criticisms of individuality to be invalid personally
I did not ask for your personal preferences.

(((CHAR)))

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>>15751062
>You can UNDERSTANDING all you want, but that doesn't turn people into goo Evangelion-style.

Well it could, with the right scenario

>>15755290
As far as I recall instrumentality suggested loss of individuality. Under what circumstances would UNDERSTANDING lead to this and why would anyone actually want it?

>>15755324
Character in my pic is from this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End
Read the section "The Last Generation", that's the scenario

>>15755229

> Such considerations are irrelevant to the current discussion.

I disagree, since they're how I would personally weigh the decision. If you don't use that data, fine. I do.

> If independence movements are a natural consequence of colonialism the reason for that is colonialism itself.

And if the choice is between humans being extremely crowded on an increasingly polluted Earth or colonialism I'd take colonialism.

> A handful of people and their personal ambitions are insignificant in the grand scheme of history.

The One Year War killed between 3 and 4 billion people. Zeon uprisings as a whole probably killed upward of 5. Even lowballing the number to 2 billion that makes up a notable portion of all humans who have ever lived. I do not view that as a "handful of people" or insignificant.

> How does this contradict the idea that Spacenoids should stop depending for resources on Earth's government rather than support it?

There's a difference between depending on the Earth government's resources as you're suggesting and Earth's resources at all, as I believe Deikun was suggesting.

> I have suggested no such thing.

Then I misinterpreted your question.

> I did not ask for your personal preferences.

What else did you mean in >>15754013 by "Do you find" if not what is my opinion on those things?

>>15755342
I don't think the scenario described in the Childhood's End is all that similar to that of the emergence of Newtypes.
What part of the Gundam canon suggests that humans should become a single organism or that Newtypism should lead to that? The most it promises to my knowledge is an advanced communication method.

Doesn't matter what Daikun said, It's not his Zeon.

>>15755410
>Side 3 libtard deikunists screaming "Not MY Zeon!"

>>15750121
>the universal constant that it vilifies

What would that be?

>>15755426
Is... that unreasonable of them?

Newtypes are a failure, look what happened to humanity in G-reco, the kuntala shit, the abomination that are the guys who live in jupiter.

Earth is good and dandy.

>>15755391
>I disagree, since they're how I would personally weigh the decision.
You would weigh the decision of whether a certain strategy is appropriate to the current situation or not based on your personal preferences?
>And if the choice is between humans being extremely crowded on an increasingly polluted Earth or colonialism I'd take colonialism.
I did not say that colonialism is bad. I simply pointed out what its natural consequences are. There are points in the development of a civilization where colonialism emerges as a necessity and points at which it becomes obsolete.
>I do not view that as a "handful of people" or insignificant.
A conflict arises out of historical necessity. Any conflict attracts people willing to take advantage of this conflict. It's the stakes in the conflict and not the personal goals of those people that warrant the level of destruction the conflict potentially generates.
>There's a difference between depending on the Earth government's resources as you're suggesting and Earth's resources at all, as I believe Deikun was suggesting.
Be it "Earth's resources" then.
>What else did you mean in "Do you find" if not what is my opinion
An argumented opinion.

>>15755475
You can just look at Victory. The largest group of newtypes shown in one show and most of them are ether brainwashed idiots (on the Angel Halo) or just a danger to have around (Fuala).

If being a Newtype is the result of freeing yourself form earth's influence, then apparently you just end up coming back and fucking it up anyways.

>>15755475
>the kuntala shit
Newtypes ate them?
>the abomination that are the guys who live in jupiter
They lived for like 200 years.

>>15755493
Being a Newtype was Fuala's least problem.

>>15755484

> You would weigh the decision of whether a certain strategy is appropriate to the current situation or not based on your personal preferences?

Yes, and so would anyone else. They might dress it up as what they think is more appropriate and serves the common good more, but ultimately it would be based upon their own preference. Would you prefer that I restate it as not good for the development of people because it at the very least paused the majority of human development for decades or something?

> There are points in the development of a civilization where colonialism emerges as a necessity and points at which it becomes obsolete.

I don't doubt the Federation's hegemony would eventually become unnecessary and obsolete, but I do not believe Zeon's method of asserting independence was warranted or useful. It strikes me as counter-productive frankly, given the mass death and that while society may have been stagnant before it (we don't actually know), we do know it was stagnant after that for a century or more.

> It's the stakes in the conflict and not the personal goals of those people that warrant the level of destruction the conflict potentially generates.

Nothing Zeon believed or did justified it to me. The Federation's system was shitty, but Zeon's actions were far shittier.

> An argument opinion.

I didn't include any because I was already running up against the character limit and didn't want to run to two posts. It's individuals that advance a society and individualism that makes people great. I don't think socialism of his kind, where all is for the collective makes for a good society or for much progress despite his arguments. I also find some of the technical points rather odd, like saying space exists as a lack of substance to give people a harsh environment. A void (or lack of substance) is in itself a substance, and it certainly doesn't exist for any reason related to humanity.

>>15755398
It's just the next step

>>15751169
>P.S. We also get superpowers."
I doubt Daikun actually thought Spacenoids would literally evolve into a race of superhumans, just that having to live on colonies where living self-sufficiently and cooperate with others was required would lead to a new perspective in how to relate to others and the earth. Of course, that position is pretty open to interpretation as it hadn't actually happened. This was exploited by the Zabis to use for propaganda in their war which ironically, like most of the wars in the Universal Century, was aimed at taking control of the Earth instead of letting it rest. Since many Spacenoids felt like they were forced into space, there's always been a significant amount who wanted to return to Earth, contrary to what what Daikun had advocated. This desire to return to Earth has helped fueled countless wars from the original One Year War to the first Neo Zeon War to the many Jupiter conflicts all the way to the Reconguista in G-Reco. As long as spacenoids knew that the Earth was available to live on and that there were others living there, instead of seeing the opportunity they had in being able to expand out into space and live cooperatively and self-sufficiently amongst each other, they hold resentment at being spacenoids and desire to return. Almost as if their souls were being weighed down by gravity? This is where Char's ideological differences begins to appear. He first tries to use the AEUG as a vehicle to achieve his goal of getting everyone into space to end the Earthnoid-Spacenoid distinction which is still relatively in accordance with his father's ideas. But upon seeing the AEUG fail and get incorporated into the Federation and Axis almost succeed in their war of resentment, Char began to innovate and came to the conclusion that to end the cycle of conflict the Earth must be uninhabitable to humans so that humanity would only have space to look towards, which he conspired to do.

>>15751373
I think that anon was making an metaphor. If literal superhumans appeared and people started calling them Ubermensch, expected them to behave the same way Nietzsche had described his concept of an Ubermensch and then used those superhumans as propaganda as you claim your side has produced Nietzsche's Ubermensch is the same as what happened in the Universal century when the mutated people commonly called Newtypes were proclaimed to be the Newtypes that Zeon Daikun described and were then used as propaganda for why Zeon was the supposedly righteous side

>>15750121
If anything history has proven that Spacenoid dominated societies (G Gundam, G-Reco, Turn A, etc.) though not a perfect utopia, do tend to be far more peaceful and more averse to large-scale mass warfare than the converse

>>15755391
>And if the choice is between humans being extremely crowded on an increasingly polluted Earth or colonialism I'd take colonialism.
Ehh, the issue with this is that people don't like seeing things in terms of solely two choices, and given the opportunity will try to do whatever they think benefits them the most at the time. If the Federation had the foresight to realize that the Earth becoming overcrowded would lead to disaster and then attempt to do something about that then they should've been able to predict the outcomes of colonialism, allowed for some autonomy and representation in the Federation government and only allow those who literally couldn't travel to space and any needed to support them to live on there, instead of creating the perception that Earth is only for some kind of elite. And if anyone buys the premise of Unicorn, the Federation actually did have the right idea before the original prime minister was assassinated in a coup planned by his son. So if anything's to blame for the Universal Century for turning out so shit, blame the Laplace Incident and the Vists for waiting so long to reveal the truth that it was irrelevant to the conflict it generated

>>15756063

Spacenoid dominated cultures also tend to be the ones starting wars and fucking up Earth. The Space Colonies used Earth for faux wars in G Gundam, fucking the planet up to avoid fucking themselves up, the reconquista in G-Reco is all about various Spacenoid factions wanting to return to Earth and starting wars because they assumed they had the right and superiority to do it and Turn-A was about a Spacenoid faction hijacking the peaceful return of another Spacenoid faction for their own ends (Agrippa had one goal, Gym another). Spacenoid factions go longer between wars, but the wars they do have tend to be bigger and more horrific than Earthnoid ones despite, or possibly because of this.

>>15756267
Idk about you, but I think I'd rather take my chances with centuries, possibly millennium, of peace and prosperity with build up of very infrequent, very destructive, but easily resolved wars, than the nightmare of the Universal Century, where you have a near apocalyptic conflict at least every generation

>>15755528
>Would you prefer that I restate it as not good for the development of people because it at the very least paused the majority of human development for decades or something?
My question was about the benefits of given strategies under given social circumstances. While we could reasonably argue that the definition of the term "benefits" is highly subjective I don't see how "sympathies" should be involved in picking an optimised strategy to increase those.

>but I do not believe Zeon's method of asserting independence was warranted or useful.
Where did you get the impression that I was defending Zeon's actions?

>Nothing Zeon believed or did justified it to me.
I was not talking about justification. I was talking about historical necessity.

>I don't think socialism of his kind, where all is for the collective makes for a good society or for much progress despite his arguments.
I don't know if that is socialism or not but the focus is on inducing a greater sense of engagement of the individual in the community. This sort of thing and the methods through witch it could be possibly achieved are, I admit, entirely in the sphere of speculative fiction.
What I am more interested in, though, is if you find the provided critizisms of liberal society ungrounded.
The merits of capitalism for economical growth are well known and the merits of economical growth for individual well-being are also well-known. The problem is it creates a value bubble after the point demands stop matching needs. Something like this has led to the decline of many civilizations. By focusing on individual rights a liberal government doesn't actually meet the needs of the individual. Do you think it is a trivial problem that can be naturally resolved in the current situation?

>>15755990
I completely agree.

>>15756022
Are you reffering to Gihren? I understand the indended meaning even though the term Ubermensch is misused in such context.
In any case Gireh hardly cared about "Newtype magic" so the original comment is still inane.

>>15755640
Would our biological constitution even allow such thing?

>>15750121
Who are you quoting?

>>15756946

> I don't see how "sympathies" should be involved in picking an optimized strategy to increase those.

Because regardless of how people dress it up, at the end of the day they're acting out strategies based on reasons like their personal preferences and sympathies.

> Where did you get the impression that I was defending Zeon's actions?

Nowhere, because that was never what I was assuming or trying to imply that you did; only saying that I don't believe their actions are justified by their cause or any social good they present given your statement about how stakes can warrant certain sacrifices.

> I was not talking about justification. I was talking about historical necessity.

I fail to see the difference. Historical necessity is justification of the actions of those long past. I also think saying you can or should do something because it's "historical necessity" is trying to ascribe some kind of grand plan to humanity or history that doesn't exist and honestly can't imagine someone using it to justify contemporary actions unless they know they're trying to sell people on some horrific shit. There is no such thing as historical necessity. If something is only possible by way of atrocious acts, then it isn't worth doing in the first place until another way can be found.

> Something like this has led to the decline of many civilizations.

To which my question would be: so what? Civilizations are like anything else in existence, they have a lifespan and eventually grow old and die. Some have died because of individualism, but some have died despite being collectivist, socialist or whatever other kind of government you want to name. Civiliazations die for plenty of reasons; trying to say individualism is bad because it's been a factor in the fall of some civilizations is fallacious reasoning to me.

> By focusing on individual rights a liberal government doesn't actually meet the needs of the individual.

Again, so what? It's a contradiction and achieving a perfect, utopian individualist society is a dream and unachievable. Striving for it is no less worth while because it's not possible though. If society was completely collectivist and all about the nation, the religion, the organization or the common good of whatever kind it wouldn't be any better or worse objectively, because there's no objective observer to mark us; society would just be different. And putting aside that I don't think society would be as advanced or subjectively good under such a system, since collectivism suppresses individual ideas and goals by nature as well as generally keeping people too busy to pursue any ideas or goals they have collectivism is no less a contradiction since focusing on social rights tends to result in not meeting social rights.

> Do you think it is a trivial problem that can be naturally resolved in the current situation?

I think it's a genuine problem and worth pursuing solutions to, but not finding solutions isn't a failing and society reaches greater heights regardless of those problems than it would under something akin to Deikun's yoke, at least as suggested in that speech.

>>15757002
Gihren certainly played a part in creating the perception I'm trying to describe, but I'm referring to the general way people see Newtypes (the mutated humans) in the context of Newtypes (the philosophical concept) in the Universal Century, which clearly leads to problems when people expect Newtypes (the mutated people) to fulfill what Newtypes (the philosphical concept) were supposed to do and lead them to some sort of Utopia. Most of the political players don't actually believe this, but are ready to use this as propaganda to fuel support for their side amongst the masses and boost the morale of their military.

>>15757659

> Gihren certainly played a part in creating the perception I'm trying to describe

Did he? If he did it seems a very minor part. He doesn't even seem the most notable Zabi to do that, since Kycilia was the one concerned with newtypes while Gihren appeared to not care one way or another about them beyond using them as pawns like Challia Bull if they were around. He doesn't even mention them in speeches if I recall. Gihren seemed more concerned about pushing the idea Spacenoids were a chosen people regardless of newtypes rather than using newtypes as proof they were chosen.

>>15757659
The general way people in UC saw Newtypes was not remotely similar to the Nietzschean Superhuman. Basically, I understand what you are trying to say, just don't use words you don't know the meaning of.

>>15757577
>Because regardless of how people dress it up, at the end of the day they're acting out strategies based on reasons like their personal preferences and sympathies.
Then I guess we should just stop thinking since it's useless anyway.
>stakes can warrant certain sacrifices
warrant: call for, demand
justify: absolve, vindicate
>saying you can or should do something because "historical necessity" is trying to ascribe some kind of grand plan to humanity or history
A pattern. It's trying to ascribe a pattern.
>trying to say individualism is bad
I am not saying individualism is bad. Everything has its uses.
>because it's been a factor in the fall of civilizations
Unrestrained economic growth and increasing social complexity have been factors in the fall of civilizations.
>Again, so what?
Failing to meet the basic needs of the individual is not a problem?
>collectivism
>collectivism
>collectivism
Why don't you try to look beyond your spooks for a little while? Why does a society have to be exclusively individualistic or collectivistic? Humans are both at all times. I told you everything has its uses.

>I like something
>therefore it's right
>therefore all of its flaws are insignificant
>anything that contradicts something I like in any way completely rejects it
>therefore I dislike it
>therefore it's wrong
Do you honestly fail to see a problem with that way of thinking?
Just because something is good that doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws. Just because something has flaws that doesn't completely discredit it.The world is not square.

Never mind. I actually wanted to talk with someone who has more knowledge than me in those matters, not to someone who is barely capable of rational reasoning. Don't get offended.

>>15750137
>feddie flag has Brazilian colors
>Jaburo is situated in Brazil
Huh, I never noticed that one.

>>15757921

> Don't get offended

I'm not, I'm confused; because roughly half your responses assumed implications I never intended or seem to answer something else entirely. I never once said you implied individualism is bad, only assumed Deikun did, since that certainly seems to be the thrust of his speech for the Zeta novel. Nor did I said collectivism was entirely bad or individualism entirely good. Nor did I say that individualism (or unrestrained economic growth if you want to focus on that) wasn't involved in the fall of civilizations, only that plenty of things have been involved in the fall of civilizations, so acting like unrestrained economic growth is bad because of it seems silly. Historical necessity is also not a pattern, I've never heard or seen it used to mean pattern and I don't even see any such uses looking it up on Google quickly. If you want to use it to mean a pattern to history more power to you, but that isn't what it's generally used to mean. As to that whole "I like something...therefor it's wrong" string I honestly have no idea where you pulled that from. If you want to be done then more power to you though.

>>15757132
We've never tried psychic gestalt, who knows

>>15750908
>Maybe if newtype abilities actually became a large enough percentage of the general population to form their own society, but they never do.

Didn't Jewdough fuck off to another star system with few colonies full of frozen newtypes?

>>15757940
Brazil conquered all of the world's shittiest free to play online games and then, the world itself.

>>15757942
>I never once said you implied individualism is bad, only assumed Deikun did
He is criticizing it.
>Nor did I said collectivism was entirely bad or individualism entirely good.
You assumed that criticism of individualism means support for an entirely collectivistic society.
>so acting like unrestrained economic growth is bad because of it seems silly.
I did not say it is bad. I criticized it.
>Historical necessity is also not a pattern
I do have a habit of inappropriately appropriating terms. In this context think about it this way: An action necessitates a reaction. My use of this term arose from my desire to explain why the particular choice of actions of Zeon as a faction is completely irrelevant to the fact that an independence movement was, so to say, historically necessary. Which arose from your desire to "justify" the Federation for the creation of those colonies in the first place, something that needs no justification because it was a natural response to their situation.
If the Federation's decisions were responsible for the OYW you felt that this would "discredit" them and make them "bad" so you wanted to point out that it is in fact Zeon who are "bad". Who is good or bad or who is to blame doesn't change the fact that actions have reactions.
That Zeon were "bad" doesn't change the fact that their independence movement rose naturally as a result of colonialism. Nor does the fact that the Federation initiated this colonialism make them "bad", responsible for the OWY or discredit them. Your attempt to "justify" them was entirely irrelevant to my question and driven by your sentimental attachments.
You are making an emotional appeal: "The Federation are not bad guys!" I am not asking if they are good guys or bad guys. I am asking if their long term strategies are good or not.

>>15757811
I know that the way people saw Newtypes is not similar to the Nietschean Superman, I was just pointing out that the concept (Ubermensch, Newtype, etc.) was misunderstood and applied to mutated humans

>>15758130

> He is criticizing it.

His speech appears to me to be saying individualism is itself bad, not just that it's become too prevalent or that there's problems with the concept. And that collectivism is what society should be moving towards. Hence why I mentioned it a lot.

> I did not say it is bad. I criticized it.

Saying that civilizations have fallen because of something and asking if it should be avoided because of that association seems to saying it is bad. If you did not mean that, then I apologize for the misunderstanding I guess.

> Which arose for your desire to "justify" the Federation

I have no desire to "justify" the Federation. The Federation's treatment of the Colonies, not giving them representation most pressingly was bad; I only pointed out that while Zeon's cause was good, their actions were not and were not worth the cause. Riah's were. Zeon's weren't. I never felt this would "discredit" the Federation by pushing the blame on them, because they do have a share of the blame either by the way.

> You are making an emotional appeal

Incorrect, if for no other reason than I'm not making an appeal of any kind at all. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, least of all yours, only explaining my personal views since you asked about them.

> I am asking if their long term strategies are good or not

Beyond building colonies we have no idea what the Federation's strategy is and they don't appear to have any, except perhaps "exist". Which I don't feel is a strategy one can judge. Zeon didn't either really, except to free themselves via war. Which I have already said I don't think was worth the cost in life, felt stagnated the society, and didn't lead to any real progress. The desire to free the colonies is a worthwhile strategy if you want to call it one, but not at any cost.

>>15758171
Oh. I see.
I guess I got triggered by this generic "Newtype magic don't do shit" comment.
Nietzsche's Ubermensch is often confused to mean some sort of "perfect being". Which is, I guess, the point of your remark?
A lot of people watch the show thinking that its premise is that Newtypes are "perfect beings". Then after a hundred or so episodes of autistic screeching they feel disappointed and act cynical about in on the internet as if they've made the grand discovery of the century.

>>15758406
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at

The exesses of the zabi family don't negate Daikun's vision.

With the expansion of humanity into the universe, it will be natural for authority and command to change from a mission control to satellites, to a more decentralized system. The ability of newtypes to communicate is pivotal to this, even if it's not perfect, or puts an end to war.