Should a Gundam series sometimes go with Humans vs. Aliens from

>>15625880
Macross went Humans vs Aliens and look where that got them.

I'm good.

Humans vs aliens is alright so long as its done well. Trailblazer was not.

>>15625884
This.

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>>15625880
Depends, if they can actually pull aliens like in the pic you posted instead of just being off color humans then its cool, but I don't think it would be easy, you would need the whole anime being made from the ground up to be about that, 00 set up the bridge to move on to the movie ELS.

Then again, I think I'm the minority who actually want aliens to actual aliens instead of just weird looking humans since people don't like the ELS or the Vajra and prefer retarded shit like the Windies from Delta

>>15625880

00 did it right
>Two species so different they thought one side killing the shit out of each other was how they communicated

>>15625890
Nah, I think the best aliens I've seen in a mecha show are actually the Festum from Fafner. I don't think Gundam will ever be like that, though. It banks too heavily on marketing to children for that level of suffering and complexity

>>15625931
I never said the ELS were the best but they were good enough for gundam which is a whole different beast when compared to Fafner

>>15625931
Admittedly bandai never marketed any ELS models (as much as I want them)

>>15625880

The problem with using aliens in Gundam is that Gundam only really has one story to tell, which is "War is kinda bad you guys, because the other side is people too probably maybe". That falls part if the enemy is NOT people too. Trailblazer got a movie out of it, but they wouldnt have much to say if the plot was stretched out to a whole series.

And if you remove that element, and all Gundam has left is teenage jedi stealing military hardware so they can sit alone in a room and scream about how much adults suck.

To introduce aliens and really make them work in a show, Gundam would have to go off-formula enough that the fans that keep the franchise alive would declare it wasn't Gundam anymore.

>>15625962
What if the aliens were people though

>>15625880
Humans vs. Humans is a pretty core component of Gundam. I like a good alien story but no need to shoehorn Gundam into it.

>>15625971
Then you'd have Yamato, but with robutts.

>>15625932
>I never said the ELS were the best
And I never implied that you did. I was replying to your assumption that people on this board like humanoid aliens. Not sure where you got that from. No one likes the Windies except the actual characters in Delta.

>>15625932
The ELS were an absolute shit-tier plot device. The entire plot of the movie was
>They don't understand!
>PEW! PEW! PEW!
>particles
>UNDERSTANDING
The only good thing about AoTB was "Celestial Being: The Movie".

>>15625883

2 good shows and a good ova that was against AI instead of aliens?

>>15625890
I agree with you. It's way better when the aliens are truly alien, with nigh-insurmountable communication boundaries. It makes for a good story for characters to overcome fear of the unknown and misunderstanding in creative ways.

>>15626026
So a Gundam series that's a stealth adaptation of Solaris?

Humans vs humans was pretty much the thing Gundam was known for. There was much negative reaction to the ELS too, even though their appearance was inevitable since Gundam 00 is rehashing the classic SRW OG plot (Divine Crusaders>Titans>Aerogaters)

>>15625931
>I think the best aliens I've seen in a mecha show are actually the Festum from Fafner
Ha

>>15626084
>implying it was the first to do that or influenced anything at all
Dumb SRWcuck

>>15625962
Pretty much this. The whole sum of Gundam, as shown in Turn A, is that humanity can never escape war and we're doomed to fight amongst ourselves until we destroy the world. It's the main common link beyond having mobile suits and a colorful hero unit called a Gundam.

>>15625880
I think they really blew their load prematurely, using a very interesting concept for a cheap shot at reassuring that GN particles can fix everything.
Now I doubt any writers will find the concept adventurous for Gundam and will just avoid it entirely.

>>15625983
Taken by itself, yes. But they were a plot device designed to bring closure to the series and its themes, and was heavily foreshadowed throughout. In my opinion it succeeded in what it needed to do.

>>15625962
>Trailblazer got a movie out of it, but they wouldnt have much to say if the plot was stretched out to a whole series.
I disagree. Yeah, the ELS would not last a series, but most alien species would have their own culture, beliefs and complex motivations unlike the ELS. It would not be hard to make a whole show out of it, but it would indeed deviate from the comfort zone of most fans.

>>15626130
>GN particles can fix everything
Except it didn't. I don't know what bizarro version of 00 you watched but it was made repeatedly clear that GN particles were nothing but engine fuel for communication/innovation that required the will and consent of both parties to make it work. The series also went to great lengths to show what happens when that will to change wasn't there (i.e. Ribbons).

>>15626111

Yep. Gundam is about every new generation declaring UNDERSTANDING and pretending they have solved their problems, only for another war of genocide to break out again less than a decade later, repeated into infinity.

Ironically, Macross (which actually has aliens) has its UNDERSTANDING message come off as not completely asinine because a solid percentage of the time that shit actually works out for them. Sure, not ALL the Zentradi settle down and live happy lives alongside humans, but most of them do. Sure, the Vajra killed a lot of people before we made peace with them, but honestly considering the shit some of the humans pulled on the Vajra they were really fucking forgiving about the whole thing once the misunderstanding was cleared up.

People are generally pretty good in Macross, even if singular actors can be real assholes who need to be removed so everyone else can have peace. The only faction we get in Macross that doesn't have a lasting peace established by the end is Windemere, and that has more to do with the fact that Delta's plot falls to fucking pieces by the end and eventually just stops showing up to work entirely than anything else.

>>15626140

So you agree, then.

Yes, *an* alien race could fill a show (but Gundam fans wouldn't like it) but the ELS themselves would make for a truly boring story if given center stage for a series.

>>15625962
The only story Gundam has to tell is: "gee war sucks but who the fuck cares when you have shiny robots like us, now available at your local supermarket!".

>>15626134
My problem was that Aeolia's foreshadowing in the series seemed to give the notion that if humanity doesn't figure out it's hangups and learn to reach out to fellow sentients, they are doomed to repeat past mistakes with alien species.

In the movie though, it wasn't about humanity as a whole maturing to a point where they could socialize amongst the stars. It wasn't even about the heroes in specific learning to 'understand' the opposing side's perspective. The show did that. No, it was a very specific encounter with an alien species that literally could only be contacted using the specific brand of technology researched throughout the series. It didn't feel like humanity won by growing themselves, but thanks to a couple of guys with expensive technology. It felt a lot cheaper than what i imagined Aeolia was referring to, and i would have rather it been left as a far off proposition.

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>>15625880
Gundam already has enough space autism bullshit going on in Human v. Human; if we added ayy's into the mix (which I think has been done at least once?) shit could only get more _____

>>15626157
>but thanks to a couple of guys with expensive technology

Guys who got really, really lucky too.

Imagine if the ELS had showed up just 12 episodes into the show? Or if human scientists had taken GN drive tech into a slightly different direction.

They had EXACTLY the tools they needed to deal with the ELS, before they knew the ELS was a thing. That's like writing down the correct answer to an essay question before being given the test and only knowing the name of the course as forewarning.

>>15625880
AGE is the closest you're gonna get.

>>15626157
>seemed to give the notion that if humanity doesn't figure out it's hangups and learn to reach out to fellow sentients, they are doomed to repeat past mistakes with alien species.
Which is exactly what happened with Descartes who had achieved innovation but couldn't get past his own butthurt for being treated like a labrat by the ESF and used the ELS to vent his frustrations.

And it took Setsuna, who had similarly experienced some of the worst humanity had to offer but could look past his selfish desires, to bring proper dialogue between the two species.

>>15626172
I honestly wish they did go with aliens for the UE instead of the mind-bogglingly retarded plan Ezelcunt cooked up.

>>15626174
Setsuna could have just as easily condemned the ELS at that final moment. The conflict ended because of the technology he had access to, not because of humanity's readiness to pursue alien relations.

Aeolia alluded to all of humanity banding together for a successful first encounter, and that's simply not what happened.

>>15625880
Contrary to popular opinion I think Trailblazer was heading in the right direction.
The ELS were a unique threat and allowed the idea of peace through communication to be implemented in a more unconventional manner.
One of the thematic ideas that has been prolific in modern Gundam has been understanding your enemy and trying to find a peaceful option for negotiation.
00 gave us a scenario where this idea could be explored and for a movie that was around an hour long I think they did alright.

If given a series with the proper treatment a Gundam where humanity confronts an alien species could be a really interesting topic to cover.
It's the natural evolution and implementation of the concept of Newtypes and Gundam has alluded to this countless times prior to 00.

>>15626190
On the other hand, presuming the ELS are intelligent, then had Setsuna come to them at a point at which mankind were still shooting at one another, it is doubtful they would have taken him seriously. That may have been what Aeolia was referring to.

>>15625880
Making the aliens too inhuman would kill the overarching "Us vs. Them Logic is Bad" theme of the Gundam franchise.

>>15626218
But it could also strengthen its themes of peaceful resolutions and alternatives to conflict if pulled off well enough.
It's a bit out of the comfort zone but that;s where the series should be going if it's gonna evolve.

>>15625880
Look man. There's a series right now called Voltron: Legendary Defender where four teenagers and one adult astronaut killed thousands of sentient aliens every other episode with their giant robot lion mech. Even after they learn that not all of those aliens are bad, they keep killing thousands of them every other episode and nobody makes a IBO fuss about the morality of mass murder because they're giant purple alien bat cats being slaughtered and not human beings. So no. It could not work with Gundam. And no, you can't just have them fight humanoids with different colored skin or elf ears or antaneea because that shit looks cheap

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>>15625962
>The problem with using aliens in Gundam is that Gundam only really has one story to tell, which is "War is kinda bad you guys, because the other side is people too probably maybe".

You know the older I get the more I start to think that message begins to get a little diluted when you sandwich it between awesome robot fights and selling toys.

>>15625974
Or Nadesico

>>15626328
Couldn't you work that into the plot? Play with the audiences expectations by making them these grotesque alien monsters, then pull a reverse by having it turn out we look ugly to the aliens and they all have their own families and shit. I think it could really add to the message of understanding.

>>15625971
>What if the aliens were people though

Humans versus giant smurfs. Yamato 2199 has human size smurfs.

>>15626026
>I agree with you. It's way better when the aliens are truly alien, with nigh-insurmountable communication boundaries. It makes for a good story for characters to overcome fear of the unknown and misunderstanding in creative ways.

We already have that : it's called Fafner.

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>>15626728
>>15625974
>Yamato Nadesico

I bet all the Japanese men would love those

>>15626728
>Or Nadesico

Nadesico was a pretty damn good show.
Way better than some recent Gundam shows that shall not be named to avoid flame wars lol.
The problem is Nadesico had Yurika and Ruri-ruri, Gundam has only stupid autists to offer.

>>15625880
I'm fine with anything as long as it is a good show. I'd actually like a human v human show where it spans a galactic war and where they have ships with FTL. Make it an even massiver war with genocidal tactics happening on a regular basis.

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>>15626735
They try, but it's kind of clumsy. One of the protagonists finds out that he's half-Galra and he goes all #NotAllGalra, but he still kills a lot of Galra. At the same time, you find out the aliens helped make Voltron, but then betrayed the other aliens that helped build him because they wanted to have Voltron for themselves. There's a point where one of the protagonists' pet robot sacrifices itself to make an enemy fall to his death and its maker is more concerned about losing her metal buddy than being associated with the murder of a living-thinking being. And none of that is really portrayed negatively because the aliens (even the good ones) are massive dicks.

As for the families, I don't really think the show wants to go there because they've destroyed a lot of alien warships and while they're primarily staffed with drones, each one of them is still shown to have a sizable living staff. So they have to go whole hog with "kids of all those dads we killed now want to kill us" or not at all.

However, they're bringing in the son of the villain of the first two seasons (who hates his dad) as the new mastermind of Season 3 and he looks nothing like the rest of his kind (who are big furry bat-cat monsters) and is half-Galra also (the other half comes from the other alien species his dad slaughtered) so if they up the cruelty on his part towards the villains (which will be hard since his dad killed his own men all the time) and heroes then that could maybe happen.

>>15626752

You know now that you say that I don't think Gundam ever really made use of the vastness of space. I know the colonies aren't SUPER far out as far as sci fi goes but you never really feel the distance. Zeon may as well have been in Europe for how far it felt

>>15626760

The first half of IBO kind of did that, though probably in the wrong way. It taking quite a few episodes for them to reach earth didn't add much.

While reading this thread I came up with an idea.
Humans send a generation ship like Macross to explore outer space. Due to some timefuckery millions of years pass for passengers of that ship and they evolve into some post-human form, losing and obtaining civilisation several times and ultimately forgetting that they were from Earth and humans are their progenitors. And only few hundreds of years pass on Earth.
Said post-humans later rediscover Earth, but they don't remember it while Earthlings don't recognize them as explorers they sent to space few centuries ago treating it as first contact with alien race.
Due to misunderstanding or something war starts between humans and post-humans. In the process they rediscover link between each other and in the end post-humans leave Earth again because gap between them and humans is huge and humans are not yet ready to accept them as their distant future selves due to differences in looks and culture.
Of course, awesome robots still battle each other almost every episode.

>>15626754

Voltron isn't the time or place for an UNDERSTANDING message, because the Galra have been enslaving and genociding whole species unchecked for thousands of years. They control whole galaxies. They are actively experimenting with harvesting the life energy of whole planets to turn into batteries.

They could have stopped any time they wanted to, they just don't want to. Maybe not every single Galra is beyond redemption, but their Empire needs to be stopped and team Voltron doesn't have the numbers that they can afford to let Galra leave the battlefield alive for reasons beyond tactical. For every fight that Voltron wins, there are 100 million fights that happened that day across Galra territory that the LOST because they were not there to fight them. The Gundam bullshit 'shoot to disable and leave them floating in space' trick would be less than useless in bringing down the Galra war machine, because they already have an insurmountable supply of men and weapons.

>>15625931
The ELS in 00 are way more interesting then the Festum.

I would be fine if Gundam was always a human vs human conflict.

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As long as the humans don't turn into aliens because reasons

>>15626868
I think they are about the same, but you only have to deal with the ELS for one movie so it's less tiresome.

>>15626746
Carlos-- I mean, Izumi!

>>15626625
It doesn't help when the themes get tugged back and forth by writers who have different opinions on war and what should be done about it. A lot of the AU Gundams do a lot more to contradict each other than compliment each other.

>>15625890
Aliens that look like humans makes sense in it's own way.

A lot of their abilities dont.

I liked Trailblazer. The ELS were pretty good and the movie fits together with the rest of the series.
As for human vs aliens or human vs human I dont really have a preference.

Vs non human aliens is almost always quite interesting but it may remove character drama with the other side, for better or for worse.
Vs human like aliens it could be quite interesting as well. If they have quite major cultural differences with humanity that may spice up the conflict otherwise they are a little more exotic humans.
Vs humans is the formula we all know.
In they end all concepts could be interesting and the execution as always makes it or breaks it.

>>15626844


They really need to better explore actual reasons for fighting beyond MUH OPPRESSION.

Maybe colonies are having out for control of resources as an example. This certainly opens room for discussion on understanding an potential way to explore a third solution to the central conflict but without actual effort and a real solution doesn't remove the cause

>>15626840
This is more or less exactly what happens in Orgun

Gundam doesn't feel right if it's not a human conflict. Part of the reason why I wouldn't want a Gundam series set primarily outside the solar system.

>>15627884
I'm still slightly triggered at the fact Scirocoo claims he's from Jupiter.

>>15625962
One of the plot points of trailblazer was that the ELS WERE people, they were just so utterly different from humanity that they had a hard time communicating that fact.

>>15626190

> Setsuna could have just as easily condemned the ELS at that final moment

How, exactly? Even if he'd used a trans-am super beam saber thing, it'd only have cut a section of the ELS Moon at most. And the ELS are a hive mind, any damage he might cause to the core of the Moon could quickly be repaired. External damage was already repaired in a matter of moments. He's not going to be able to damage them for long either, since they quite literally surround him at that point, and there's no way he can escape them if he stays there.

>>15626760

I don't think the Earthsphere is ever supposed to feel that distant in diameter within UC, and it's supposed to be more akin to modern journeys around the globe. It might take a few days by ship, but that's about the most you'll have to do. Space travel has made the Earthsphere a lot faster, even if travel on the planet is about the same because you still have to deal with atmosphere and other things that slow you down.

>>15625883
The problem is that Macross Delta was basically humans vs space humans.

>>15628204
The Windermere apologia sank that show more than anything.

>>15628204
So were SDF and 7. And kind II as well

>>15626157
Agreed.
The series ending was cheapened by the movie. None of the series themes of social development, unity, understanding, etc mattered at all in the film. The world could have been in the midst of genocidal wars of nationalism and as long as any faction had built the 00 the ending could be the same. Humanity didn't need to evolve socially to be able to handle meeting alien life, they just needed to have the pixie dust machine to explain the concept of death to some silver blobs.

>>15625880
Humans vs Aliens story usually results in old and boring message like "We're not so different" or "The dialog is possible". As most of the shitty stories, the cause of the conflict would be aliens' need for lebensraum or some retarded reason of other kind.
The human vs human story could give us a ground for a good story about human relationship in the modern world, especially economical relationship. But since the market is stagnating and experiments are failing (because of both the production mess and lack of several things required for a good story, understanding of the society and talent included), the better choice is to euthanize the anime industry in general

>>15628287
The zentradi had their own culture (or lack there of) the windies were just humanoid dictators... effectively humans.

>>15626916
00 was the only one that was consistent about conflict, even with the ayys and understanding
SEED and DESTINY made no sense
AGE went "lol they were humans all along and we should understand them"
IBO was just stupid

>>15626625
It's the Spec Ops argument. You can make its glorious and fun, but you can also show the consequences and the ugly side as well. You know, like that scene in F91 where the mother gets killed by a shell casing

>>15626199
People who understood (lol) Trailblazer get that point

>>15626868
Els and festum are pretty much the same threat.
The only difference is that Fafner had more time to develop them.

>>15628512
>like that scene in F91 where the mother gets killed by a shell casing

This is going off on a tangent, but f91 is the only Gundam series I can think of where the message of war is bad is conveyed properly through visuals.
Usually the suffering is so disconnected from the combat, but f91 often interlaced and intercut scenes of the MS fighting with civilian casualties.
This kind of battle choreography doesn't give the viewer a break from the suffering and directly involved it in the action so you and up being more aware of the consequences of the fighting.

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>>15628707
What about in Unicorn when a Jegan turns a bunch of high school kids into burgers?

>>15625880
Replace Vagans with actual Martian aliens in Gundam AGE.

>>15628738
Oh yeah, that was a good scene too, but it was short lives and Unicorn has most of the battles after that take place outside populated areas.

>>15628738
Fucking Unicorn, man. So full of potential that falls flat by the end.

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>>15626916
>A lot of the AU Gundams do a lot more to contradict each other than compliment each other.
That actually makes more sense than not. It illustrates that no matter what types of "understanding" humanity attempts at various points in its history, it's doomed to ultimately fail because conflict is hard-coded into our genes. War is humanity's natural state, not peace.

>>15628738
Don't forget the scene where Loni literally murders a woman and her newborn.

>>15628784
00 alone contests that notion.

I could see a Gundam with aliens working with caveat that it starts out human vs huma but suddenly outta nowhere ALIENS pop in to wipe everybody out.

Imagine Feddies vs Zeon but add in the aliens from Independence Day or Mass Effect showing up.

Suddenly units like the Deep Striker start making sense.

>>15628512
>. You know, like that scene in F91 where the mother gets killed by a shell casing

Im sorry but that seen was just so out there I couldn't find it anything other than hilarious

>>15628805
Not really. One of 00's most heavily pushed themes was "peace is really fucking hard, guys." Peace efforts aren't actually presented as being doomed to fail, but the show does present conflict as the natural state of humanity, with peace being something desirable to strive for, but requiring significant constant effort over long periods of time.

>>15629253
You ever watch Generation Kill? In one scene the soldiers fired a smoke grenade to disperse a crowd but the grenade shell bounced off the ground and smashed into a dude right in the back of the head and killed him
It's just as hilarious, yes, but just as unfortunately horrifying

>>15626157
>>15628294
I agree, but at the same time I once tough that Aeolia's whole plan was trying to make humanity understand themselves before they would be faced with having to understand aliens, but then there's this 00 fail safe because, well, he tried his best but maybe he didn't put that much stock into humanity after all.

And honestly now that I thought about it, I can't just discard it as a cheap plot device. Not trusting in humanity and it's moral core? I would have done the same. It was a cheap plot device and I don't think the writers could have thought about this, but I can't hate it anymore.

>>15628869
I would love this genre bait shit, half the public would hate it and the threads would be hilarious after 13 episodes of humans fighting and then suddenly everything is irrelevant; the politics, the ideology, nothing matters anymore, there's giant aliens to fight now. They'd have to put their differences aside just to survive, and ideally they'd either Understand with the aliens or just destroy them, reverting back to their original mess a second after that was done, and the whole lesson could be that they learned absolutely nothing, only got cooler weapons in the process, driving all the Understanding fags to insanity.

I would pay just to see the reactions.

>>15629689
It'd be really cool to have a Layzner reboot for this reason. It's basically a more cynical Gundam

>Only one member of the opposing (human) alien race is remotely sympathetic, and he's killed off midway
>Protagonist starts off as a pacifist, eventually stops caring whether or not he kills people to achieve his goals
>Resolution to the problem of coexistence among the aliens and humans is not for them to understand each other, but for the humans to boot the aliens to the other side of the galaxy

It's almost /pol/-tier and I can just see all the mainstream anime sites frothing at the mouth over it

>>15628707

I found Turn-A to be quite good for that personally, with the war hospital in a few episodes around the early 20's probably the most obvious example. Especially when Dianna as Kihel works there for part of an episode, so you see all these guys in stretches moaning and screaming in pain as nurses walk around with saws, blood soaked bandages etc. The show never really lingers over long on it, but the horror is conveyed effectively.

More than that though I like that Turn-A took the time to establish characters and it's setting before the conflict really kicks off, trying to make the viewer care about them before the conflict as rooting for them as they try to stop the outbreak of fighting. It's not something that'll work for everyone, but I loved it.

>>15629689

I'm sure some people would be upset about it, but it sounds fantastic to me precisely because of thing things you stated. The conflicts and problems of the past wouldn't be irrelevant, because the human cast would have to agree to put them aside and over come their differences, even if only temporarily so that they can fight an external threat. Those things wouldn't just disappear and have no import, they'd be what dictates the pace of cooperation. Which sounds entertaining and interesting to me.

>>15629723

You say that, but I'm almost certain it'd gain following specifically for being not what people expect and then you'd have a load of people calling it dark, while more people rail against it's popularity for being undeserved. It'd basically be the next Attack on Titan.

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>>15628788
Feddie babies aren't people, especially on weekends.

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>>15626746

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>>15625880
I like it when my military sci-fi literally dehumanizes the enemy and makes them monstrous aliens. Independence Day, Starship Troopers, Pacific Rim just to name a few...

>>15625880
I think it should be something that's not shit but unfortunately /m/ hates good Gundam shows like IBO and Turn A.

>>15631363
Is there an official reason for why they were changed so drastically from what they were in the book?

>>15631431
Verhoeven didn't read it so he didn't really care. Physically, they're not that far off. The big difference is no tech.

>>15630700
>clearly a residential area down below
>"everybody was off base for the weekend"
Fucking Zeek apologists