Why does Gundam keep trying to make Zeon be justified by making

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cause japan loves zeon and is butthurt tomino made them super villains who get their asses handed to them by a teenage boys in a giant robot.

>>15619160
>Why does Gundam keep trying to make Zeon be justified by making feddies do bad stuff during the war?
Zeon did bad stuff during the war too, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Two wrongs makes Zeon the good guys?

>This kind of shit happens in every war and both sides do it
Congratulations Anon, you managed to correctly interpret the message of UC Gundam. War is bad. If you were so clear on this I don't understand why you needed to make a troll thread about it, but to each their own I guess.

>why not try and show the reason why Spacenoids are so butthurt about Earth rule and how life in the colonies sucks instead of this preachy bullshit?
Zeon rebelled because of political and economic issues, not because life in the colonies was hard. Same reason why the U.S. rebelled.

But again, I think you already knew all this shit.

>>15619160
Mont people can sympathize with zeon better so Sunrise is trying to appeal to them.

>>15619160
Hasn't that been a thing since Zeta? The whole there's never really 'good guys' in a war thing?

>>15619160
I can't wait to see if Matsuo has the balls to keep the molestation attempt scene in.

>>15619181
That's been a thing since 0079 though to a lesser extent than Zeta.

>>15619170
/thread

I dunno how everybody manages to clearly interpret the message of Gundam, that war sucks no matter what side, but still try and push the -wank argument every time UC comes up.

>villains given some kind of moral justification/show gives you reasons so that you could empathize with some of the regular people in both Zeon and the Federation that are victims of war and understand why they still fight

HURRRR ZEONWANK FUCK UNICORN IT'S JUST ZEONWANK WHY THE FUCK DO THEY WANT TO CREATE MOTIVES FOR THE ZEONIC REMNANTS THAT HAVE STILL HELD ON FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS WHY ARE THEY LETTING ME KNOW THAT MOST ZEON SOLDIERS GENUINELY HAVE A VENDETTA AND BURNING HATRED OF THE EF AND VICE VERSA
FUCK ZEONWANK I HATE ZEON FUCK ZEONFAGS

Meanwhile
>The Empire/First Order and its army in Star Wars has never ever been given a valid reason why they're as plain evil as possible
>none of the Original Trilogy ever gives you a single reason to like any Imperial soldiers, they're always portrayed as being abjectly evil and their only ever concern is the brutal domination of all the inhabitants of the galaxy, going as far as wiping out several planets
DUDE THE EMPIRE RULES FUCK THE REBELS I WANT TO BE ON THE EMPIRE'S SIDE

>>15619201
Because trolls, and also people with childish minds. Some people think that just because there are cool characters in Zeon we're supposed to be sympathetic to them and they're supposed to somehow be the good guys. It's fucking idiotic. Both sides have characters that do good things, characters that do bad things, and characters that do both good and bad things.

Every time something happens in a new Gundam that makes the Federation look bad, or Zeon look good, the children come out of the wood works to complain about how Zeon soldiers are somehow all mass murdering scumbags and shouldn't be made to look good. These people have zero capacity to separate individuals from organizations. Zero capacity.

>>15619215
Ultimately the bad guys just have the best tailors and that's all anyone cares about.

>>15619215
>DUDE THE EMPIRE RULES FUCK THE REBELS I WANT TO BE ON THE EMPIRE'S SIDE
Can Zeon learn this power?

>>15619160
>This kind of shit happens in every war and both sides do it

that's literally all they're trying to fucking say you moron. TB is not trying to make "Feds look bad" it's just making all sides look grey. Everybody knows Zeon did the ultimate warcrime of gassing and dropping a colony so depicting MORE crimes is just kind of beating a dead horse.

the scene you screenshotted isn't even supposed to make the Feds look bad. they stopped the Zeeks from fucking kamikaze suicide killing themselves and all the Feddie and Zeek soldiers on board. there was nothing "anti Feddie" about it you goddamn mouthbreathing scum

>>15619305
seriously the Zeek scientists were talking about how it would be so shameful to be a POW they might as well die and kill all of the wounded on board even though the battle was already over, have Zeeks ever been depicted to be that fucking insane? people really think TB is "Zeekwank" just because it shows the Feddies doing a couple of bad things?

War is bad, no matter what side you are on. Only the younger generations can end the violence through Understanding.

>>15619326
>people really think TB is "Zeekwank" just because it shows the Feddies doing a couple of bad things?
Mark my fucking words Anon, if any Gundam ever shows anybody getting even a little hair on their head harmed by a Federation soldier people will be in here making troll threads and calling that shit a fucking Zeekwank. Doesn't even need to have Zeon in it. I'm sure somebody has made a trollthread claiming Victory was a zeekwank before.

Also y'all need to learn how to fucking sage. OP has already been hazed into oblivion, now stop bumping this shit.

What I think isn't helping is that we're got/getting a lot of Zeon focus UC shows lately.

Unicorn, Thunderbolt, The Origin, Twilight Axis...

I dunno, maybe.

The Earth Federation is made up of self-loathing bleeding-hearts who blame the Zabis for every ill in the Earth sphere, and elitists suffering from power-envy, bitter that the its colonies' only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that Zeon has behaved with enormous restraint since the death of Garma Zabi. Remember, remember.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of Garma phoning his girlfriend to say, "I love you," before he was burned alive. Remember him charging to his death from inside of a burning Gaw. Remember the hundreds of crewmen incinerated. Remember, remember - and realise that Zeon has never retaliated for Garma in anything like the way it could have.

So a few Side 6 tourists got locked without a trial? Pass the Kleenex. So some Southeast Asian wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics into a jungle full of Zeon mobile suits? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

I love Zeon, yet Zeon is hated. Zeon is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Or do you really think the Principality is the root of all evil?

Tell it to my brother Garma Zabi, who was incinerated by the Federation warship White Base. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died in that battle, or were ripped apart in the explosion. And tell it to the millions of young widows whose husbands gave their lives for the Principality. To our shame, Zeon Deikun gets a worse press than General Revil.

Remember, remember, Garma Zabi. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against Zeon!

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

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>>15620252
Hi, Gihren.

>>15619160
except all the times Zeon did terrible stuff

>>15619244
They already have by virtue of having more intimidating Mobile suits and a pretty cool cast of Ace Pilots that actually aren't hitler themselves. They're like the Empire but with better PR, albeit without the universal power structure.

>>15619350
Unicorn was actually rather balanced. It's about the only Gundam show I can think of aside from Thunderbolt that said "lets take a look from the perspective of BOTH sides for once," but unlike Thunderbolt, actually took it seriously (for better or for worse.)

japanese went full nazi

>>15620252
you dropped a colony. You are not only hitler, you are also...what's the historical equivalent of uprooting denver and dropping it on england?

>>15619216
>These people have zero capacity to separate individuals from organizations. Zero capacity.

Do the words 'clean Wehrmacht myth' have any significance to you?

>>15620275
That flew out the window when it decided to introduce the space jews conspiracy and bent over backwards to say that Zeon's batshit space psychic theory that couldn't possibly have been predicted was predicted eighty years in advance and had an insane clause written into the Federation's constitution.

>>15619160
There's nothing preachy about it, maybe you're just angry about something that shows up by coincidence.

>>15620310
Holy shit, not everything is an analogy about world war two and jews. If it was then everyone would kill themselves for lack of any tasteful entertainment to enjoy. Kill yourself.

>>15620310

Considering that Zeon Zum Deikun had already predicted the possible future existence of a new type of human that was adapted for life in space 15 or so years before any showed up even in the original, I fail to see how Unicorn did anything new or different there by having some other people do the exact same thing a few decades earlier.

Also, the space jew conspiracy had exactly zero to do with Zeon in the One Year War since the Zabis didn't newtypes as a reason for their war, publicly or privately. Said conspiracy was to hide it to stop Zeon using it as a further excuse for war, rather to hide something that justified an existing reason. And even that was only after several decades. Originally it was just hidden so some people could gain money by blackmailing others with proof of their duplicity and murders that got them in to power.

>>15620495
It's not predicting it that's the problem, it's writing "oh by the way if space psychics ever happen we should hand over the reigns to them" into your constitution that's the absurd part.

>>15620497

Good thing that was never in the constitution then I suppose, since all the line says is that they should be included in the administration and not that they should be in charge. In a section that also includes provisions for the discovery of alien life forms, so is basically just a hopeful dreamers pact.

>>15619160
If you wanted to cry about zeonwank why that scene? The Feddies did nothing wrong there.

>>15620497
The absurd part is that you see newtypes as space Jews when they're more like Mu from Toward the Terra.

>>15620504
What? I was talking about the Vist conspiracy, not the Newtypes.

And I don't literally mean space jews, that was a joke.

>>15619160
How is that scene Zeekwank when the Federation saved the lives of their own guys as well as every single slightly less retarded than average Zeek on that ship?

>>15619160
Because japs don't bother themselves with studying history and adjusting the story to the real events

>>15620517
Yeah, I must have missed the part of history where thousands of Island-3 colonies were built and there was this huge nuclear conflict with giant robots and balls.

>>15620535
You don't get it. Colonies and robots are the decorations. What matters is the story itself.
For example, Dougram made a realistic world in non-realistic decorations

>>15620544
Maybe the story was only meant to vaguely resemble the real world in the first place to invert common western tropes? Did you ever consider that?

>>15620551
Who writes a story with a single purpose of trope-inverting? Who would fund this?

>>15619160
>Why does Gundam keep trying to make Zeon be justified by making feddies do bad stuff during the war?

Because its an analogy for WWII and nobody mentions the fucked up stuff the allies did because were on the side of history that won.

Everybody was terrible. That's war, but we conveniently forget half of it.

>>15620558
This was pretty much the idea of the original Gundam. Whenever you read some interviews of Tomino or Yas about the original series, you will read them openly saying that they wanted to "challenge" the common tropes of mecha anime of the time. Instead of evil organizations we have a political conflict, the mechas are standarnized military hardware, the protagonist is a whiny and not particularly good-looking lad and is also not a jap or of nipponic ancestry. There was also the intention of breaking the concept of "personal growth journey", in which in the end Amuro would have not really changed that much as a person. This last one is open to debate.

>>15619244
Not from A CHAR

>>15619160

Looks promising. Gif?

>>15620305
>Do the words 'clean Wehrmacht myth' have any significance to you?
It clearly doesn't have any significance to you, seeing as you don't seem to understand what it is. The Clean Wehrmacht movement was trying to disassociate the Wehrmacht from the SS despite there being a clear relationship between the two and their crimes; hence the myth. Right now by virtue of your counter-argument, you're saying that every single soldier who served for the German military in WWII is a war criminal regardless of the nature of their service or whether or not they were required.

I think you'll have a hard time finding reasonable people who feel that that's an accurate way to generalize soldiers. As I said before, it's ridiculous and childish to pain every single Federation and Zeon soldier with the same brush. The world is a complicated place, and it's just plain stupid to pretend it's anything but by generalizing.

>>15620792

>war criminal

Given the measures that members of the Wehrmacht enforced, particularly during Operation Barbarossa, it stands to reason that a significant number are guilty of being such, yes.

>>15620921
>it stands to reason that a significant number are guilty of being such, yes.
Undoubtedly.

> why not try and show the reason why Spacenoids are so butthurt about Earth rule

They did, in Origin.

1. Earth was basically demanding taxes and food shipments from the colonies.

2. Zeon dies mysteriously before giving a speech about colonial independence. The masses grumble that he was killed by the EF, but it was probably Ghiren.

3. Sasbo Zabi is killed in a carbombing; again, the people blame the EF, but Ghiren was likely behind it.

4. The EF accidentally let a meteorite hit a colony.

5. When protests started happening, instead of letting the local colony guard units handle it they sent in troopships and guntanks.

Basically, the people of Munzo believed that the EF was killing off their leaders and trying to impose martial law.

Then Char goads Garma into leading an assault on the Federation garrison with just a few hundred Munzo guard cadets... which succeeds fantastically.

>>15620921
In some manner all soldiers of all sides would fall under the category anyway, when we remember that minor stuff, like looting dead soldier bodies for personal belongings, looting civilian houses or destroying their belongings, among other things, are considered war crimes.

But, yes, the germans are a bit more autistically harsh in the treatment of civilians communities with suspicions of partisan activity in occupied territories. There was also the brutal repression carried out by their local allies, native allied police forces, friendly militias and others as such, which just theoretically should fall under the german army supervision, but generally just did their own things based in already existing local rivalries.

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>every time we see Earth it's a shithole of pollution, crime and poverty
>every time we see a colony it's splendid and clean
>somehow we're supposed to believe life in colonies suck and that people on earth have it great
Don't even think about saying that some character or side material TELLS us that this is the case. In a work of fiction, especially in visual medium, what is SHOWN will always take precedence over what is TOLD. If the two contradict each other, then what we are TOLD can only be a lie.

>>15620967
>But, yes, the germans are a bit more autistic
European history in a nutshell.

>>15621041

There's a good chance it's a deliberate contrast on Tomino's part, given that Spacenoids are normally fed propaganda to get them to follow a given group, so it's entirely possible he wanted to show how they're taking false pretenses as fact to help fuel the war effort as more of the "every side in a war is bad" thing.

>>15621041
>Every time we see London it's a shithole of pollution, crime and poverty
>Every time we see America it's splendid and clean
>Somehow we're supposed to believe life in the colonies suck and that people in Britain have it great.

All a matter of perception, Anon.

>>15621174
DROP A HOUSE ON THE 13 COLONIES

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>>15621174
"But I am one of those, too, who, rather than submit to the rights of legislating for us, assumed by the British Parliament, and which late experience has shown they will so cruelly exercise, would lend my hand to sink the whole Island in the ocean."

Had he the means to execute a colony drop...

>>15621174
>The american rebels did a Utah drop on Sweden.

>>15621188
Jefferson Zabi was a visionary who did nothing wrong!

>>15621174
That is an extreme false equivalence.

>>15621255
>That is an extreme false equivalence.
This is a fallacy fallacy.

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>>15621262
I find it very funny that the 'fallacy fallacy' is often used so ironically.

>>15621174
>Zeon is allegorical for the American revolution
>despite already having their independence and basically just nuking the Earth and wiping out many colonies for not bending a knee as an imperialistic power grab
>T. Nanking never happened
Zeonfags, everyone

>>15621262
I already made my argument. Analogy is not an argument.

>>15619160
>Why does Gundam keep trying to make Zeon be justified by making feddies do bad stuff during the war?
It's not justifying Zeon.

It's demonizing the War in general, and the cruelties that it brings. It gave both sides an excuse to torture and kill their opponents to the point that they break down into submission. It's another form of cruel dominance over others for the sake of maintaining ones own power.

>>15621286
'Fallacy fallacy' is pretty self explanatory. If I explained why it was, I'd literally just be quoting the definition of the fallacy every single time I invoke it. Waste of everybody's time.

>>15621290
Pointing out a fallacy isn't an argument, it's trying to look smart on the internet. Problem is you got lost and thought you could earn fake internet points here.

>>15621312
>Pointing out a fallacy isn't an argument
Except I told you I already made my argument while you haven't made one at all.

>>15621316
>I already made my argument
What argument is that? Saying it's a false equivalence isn't an argument, Anon. That's not how this works.
>You haven't made one at all.
Take your blinders off. They're confusing you.

>>15621320
>What argument is that
I see you're incapable of scrolling up, so I'll spoonfeed you:
>>15621041

>>15621323
>I see you're incapable of scrolling up
Why would I scroll up to find an argument supporting why it's a false equivalence?

I'm still waiting, Anon. Put some chocolate pudding on that spoon of yours for me.

>>15621331
>supporting why it's a false equivalence?
It was never about that. That's just some shit you threw up to distract from the argument in that post.

>>15621333
I'm asking you why it's a false equivalence, you dense motherfucker. Use your words. The only one trying to distract is (You). I'm giving you an opportunity to put forth effort rather than shitpost.

At this point I'm beginning to think you're just bullshitting and you don't even know.

>>15620575
Original Gundam was more about creating or borrowing new tropes than inverting the old ones.
> and is also not a jap or of nipponic ancestry
Yet his surname sounds japanese as fuck, he has several japanese neighbors and his namesake is japanese navy fighter. As well as the namesakes of his friends Kai and Hayato. Together they form a sort of a Getter-like team - Tall Guy, Average Guy and a Short Brawler Guy.

>>15621339
Why would someone living well in Britain while an American lives in shit mean Earth folk live well while Zeeks don't? Why does Britain taxing the hell out of America mean that the Earth Federation is taxing the shit out of Zeon? It doesn't. You're just making shit up under the pretense of it being an "allegory".

zeon are actually the good guys and federation is bad

>>15621352
>You're just making shit up
Who is "you're?" You don't even know who you're arguing with, coupled with your extreme inability to make something that vaguely looks like an argument.

>Why would someone living well in Britain while an American lives in shit mean Earth folk live well while Zeeks don't?
What are you trying to say here, Anon? It doesn't mean anything. It's a similarity drawn between a series of fictional events and a series of real world events. You're trying to ascribe meaning to something in the reverse order and it's ridiculous.

>It doesn't.
To be clear, it's well established in UC canon that the grievances Zeon had (aside from MUH NEWTYPES bullshit) were related to the lack of representation and the economic burdens placed on colonies. There's a reason why they're fairly consistently referred to as the "Earth elite." Though the circumstances in the U.S. revolution and the Zeon "revolution" are obviously quite different, the core cause is very similar. That's no accident, because a lot of colonial revolutions across the globe happened for that exact same reason. Hell, in my recollection it's one of the most common excuses used by writers to establish a colonial revolution simply because it's so common in history. You write what you know, and humanity is very familiar with this concept.

That's why when people on /m/ argue this bullshit about Zeon not being what I just described, they almost always have to lean on post-Deikun events to try and discredit the comparison, or spin some bullshit tale about Origin.

As a side note, I genuinely can't think of a time where somebody tried to sell an idea that the pre-OYW spacenoids were suffering and living harsh lives and it wasn't purely propaganda. I can't even think of a time that idea was sold and it WAS just propaganda. I'm not saying it never happened, but even Origin doesn't try to sell that idea and Origin just does whatever the fuck it wants.

>>15621339
see >>15621286
Zeon didn't have a, "revolution." The federation granted them independence after their philosopher-king got on stage and sperged at them for a few years.

>>15621286
zeon literally SJW

>>15621418
>The federation granted them independence after their philosopher-king got on stage and sperged at them for a few years.
OK, sure. And then what happened?

See, I always enjoy when people try and go down this road on this board. Always picking and choosing the details that best suit their narrative. Let's just forget about everything because the Federation gave them independence, so it doesn't count! Zeon was just power grabbing, and their concerns were bullshit! That image you linked gets posted every time like it's some holy grail of evidence that what you're saying is true. Half the shit in those posts is actually bullshit, but it doesn't matter because it suits your narrative.

Even if I went down the road of picking that image apart piece by piece again, it still wouldn't change this core fact: Being granted independence has fuck all to do with why they asked for it in the first place.

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>>15621490
>Always picking and choosing the details that best suit their narrative
>dude American Revolution lmao
>Gihren did nothing wrong
That's literally what you're doing

>spacenoid independence doesn't go so well
>therefore repeatedly attempting to destroy the state with continent-destroying WMDs is okay
>r-real Deikunism just hasn't been tried yet

>>15619188
>questioning Matsuo
>ever

You have to go back.

>>15619160
>how life in the colonies sucks
It doesn't, that's why. The colonies are all picturesque landscapes. The only time they showed a colony that didn't look like a 1950's dream town was the industrial facility in Zeta and you only saw it from Bask's window. Green Noa 2, iirc, or maybe it was 1 and the residential one was 2...it's been a while. Oh, and Texas Colony but it was made that way on purpose to begin with, that wasn't "life in the colonies sure does suck" that was a tourist trap town. All of the colonies grew their own food, everything was in season all year round due to multiple agricultural pods. Life was pretty idyllic except for not having proper voting rights. We never even saw anything like the work camp Saji went to in 00. The only examples of actual government oppression of spacenoids to happen in Mobile Suit Gundam was Zeon forcing people out of the colony they used to build that fuckhuge laser. Or maybe Zeon killing everyone in Island Iffish so they could use it as a weapon, or the unseed nuking/gassing of dozens if not hundreds of earth-aligned colonies by Zeon.

>>15621490
>we want independence
>okay cool you can have it but we're also independent so don't act like we owe you anything
>REEEEEEE MUH INDEPENDENCE YOU OWE US SHIT

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>>15621689
They do have the coolest mobile suits and uniforms, though.

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>>15621702
>and uniforms
No

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>>15621702
>>15621710
Wrong on both accounts, kids.

>>15621713
That makes you look like a frumpy dork who works for a cuck

>>15621347
So what you're telling me is that the Gundam is secretly powered by Getter Rays and needs three pilots to draw out its true strength?

>>15621716
It's a solid indicator of everything about you, yes, that's one of the goals of uniforms.

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>>15621675
>>15621689