So am I understanding this correctly? Even the most basic variants

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>>15616648
Yes. Also keep in mind Type 61s had some trouble fighting Zakus and MS because their guns could not angle high enough to hit them sometimes.

Type 61s are regular by the weird future standards of UC. If you've ever watched IGLOO there's actually a segment in IGLOO 2 devoted entirely to a Type 61 crew that fights Zakus.

>>15616648
They apparently have a slow RoF, and low energy. Anyway what ground unit would you send against a Zaku II?

In Zeonic Front they could easily kill your Zaku if they could score a couple of hits behind you.

I miss the gritty games like that, I'm tired of the cheap arcade rehashes we get nowadays in Gundam games.

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>>15616656
Armored car with wire guided missiles.

>>15616648
Well it's not like they were prepared for a land invasion of mobile suits.

>>15616656
Lol what?
You clearly dont know 120mm
It entirely depends on what entry you are watching, some of them like Thunderbolt manage to show consistent 120's shredding gm's others show them barely plinking off armour.

Personally i think the JTJ opening showed it off best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibL9e5j-8AA&ab_channel=AkumaShiro

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>>15616648
Well what the fuck else were they going to send besides tanks and planes? Maids with grenade launchers?

>>15616692
That seems to support that the 120mm MG has a slow rate of fire, and its a low energy round or else they wouldn't have replaced it with 90mm.

>>15616648
They had literally nothing else.

>>15616722
>Maids with grenade launchers?
sounds like a good plan. Cute maids might even convert zeonic forces to the ways of the Federation

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I think the best explanation is that the Zaku shells just didn't have much propellant. The bore of the weapon is less important than its energy.

>>15616772
The Zeon's 120mm is probably nothing like a MBT round

>>15616737
The MMP-80 was chosen for a better armor penetration capacity against Gundarium armor. It was very effective when it came to fighting the early gun cannons that had steel armor. I think the first debut of the MMP-80 was during 0080 for use with the Zaku II kai as a substandard replacement for the new separate reactor powered beam rifle anyway.

>>15616794
It's an enormous gun. It must be very similar. Gundarium is just too strong versus ballistics for it to make a difference.

>>15616806
Well MBT now, at least for most European MBT and the Abrams use 105mm smoothbore cannons, and they use sabots. I'd imagine to just keep the weight down they would have to have a smaller amount of powder, and although the gun is massive that doesn't decrease the wear from firing a 120mm round.

They actually sent infantry squads against Zakus too. Youtube for "Zaku hunting" and you'll see a bunch of doofuses trying to bring down 2 Zaku IIs at once.

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>>15616825
You talkin' shit, anon?

>>15616820
All of the metallurgy in Gundam is crazy anyway.

>>15616827
GTFO Squad 4

>>15616825
And it worked rather well with the help of a hole in the ground.

>>15616825
Would have worked if those fucknuts on the tower didn't fire early.

>>15616829
Pretty much. Zakus are the same weight as an M1 abrams tank, but with their immense size the material of a zaku would have to be extremely light weight and not very dense. I'd wager that same magic metallurgy is applied to everything else in Gundam, ships, guns, space colonies, since why wouldn't you use a metal material that's both strong and light weight?

>>15616893
The weights in Gundam are just fucked up. The Tallgeese 1 is 8.8 tons at 17.4m. I'm pretty sure that water in the shape of a Tallgeese 1 would be a few times heavier.

>>15616803
Even in 0080 most Fed MS were not Gundarium/luna titanium though. My understanding is the 120mm MG was a gun made to kill tanks, fighters, and space cruisers like the Salamis. The round could be less penetrative and more explosive because that armor was much more easily defeated.

When the GM came out, 120mm worked but it was inconsistent due to the thicker MS armor. It was still capable of destroying a GM, sometimes very quickly, but depending on range and angle etc. it could defeat the round an unacceptable amount.

It's the only thing that makes sense as well, given that the gun goes from 120mm to 90mm and from a 100-round drum to a 32-round mag. Clearly quality > quantity

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the round was so slow, infantry could dodge it

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>>15616977
I don't think that's accurate.

>>15616977
A ball also started tanking 90mm armor piercing rounds when Shiro got in it. If it involves Shiro then the universe will bend ass backwards over to make sure he looks good.

>>15616977
Are MS ballistic weapons rifled?

>>15616988
When did it do that? Aina's Zaku was using a 120mm MG

>>15616986
well it happened, so....

>>15616648
If all you had were tanks, at the time, what would you send out to fight the giant robutts?

>>15616977
You can say he just moved out of the way just before it fired, but I imagine at that range a 120mm cannon muzzle blast would knock you onto your ass and blow your eardrums out.

>>15616990
Almost certainly, just like most cannons we use today. I don't see much benefit to a smooth-bore gun for mobile suits, except for a mortar launcher or a giant shotgun (a la Kampfer).

>>15616977
>>15616988
People sometimes forget that 08th MS Team had some of the most blatant plot armor in the franchise, and that's really saying something. Never forget that in the extra OVA a Ground Gundam took a direct hit to the torso from a cannon and took zero fucking damage, but instantly knocked the pilot out.

>>15617087
I'd wager good money that Shiro's innards would be shredded.

>>15617087
Being that close to a tank-equivalent cannon muzzle when firing SEVERAL TIMES would probably blow parts of your skin and flesh off, much less incapacitate your sense organs.

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>>15617084
Booby traps made with tank shells and technicals with gunship rocket pods. Also falling rocks, landslides and broken dams.

>>15617100
Most MBT cannons are smooth bore though, and don't have muzzle breaks like a Zaku 120mm MG

>>15616655
MS Igloo 2 ep2 was one of the best things to come out of gendum in a while

also I seem to recall a type61 backshotting an Acguy during the Battle of Jaburo in MSG

>>15617172
The Ground Gundams are made up of straight up Gundarium. If thick enough it can shrug off a cannon round from long range just fine. Even the Magella top Hamon used only damaged the backpack, it was repeated attacks or a suicide ram that was a concern.

>>15617811
>Even the Magella top Hamon used only damaged the backpack,
That's because the backpack ablated the shot. A follow-up would've blown up the core of the Gundam, which is precisely why Amuro was accepting that he and all his friends were dead man right up until somebody saved his ass. Magella cannons are treated with just as much inconsistency as LTA is, because the reality is that a Magella cannon shot is supposed to be able to penetrate LTA or at least severely compromise the area it strikes.

Like all things Gundam, Animatorium-Wriatium Alloy armor plating reigns supreme.

>>15617682
I don't know for sure, but I don't believe mobile suits used self-stabilized projectiles like a MBT sabot. I think their guns just fire shells, so they may likely be rifled.

>>15616668
Somewhat ironically that these are finally shown to be used in Victory Gundam, which is so late in UC that everything is covered in beams and minovsky flight systems

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>>15616722

>>15616935
0080 came out around the same time PDWs were becoming popular to depict in media. The designer probably just wanted to adapt the "smaller round but higher velocity to defeat soft body armor" that PDWs are known to use into Gundam.

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>>15616668
>slav shit

No, it needs to be a hovercraft with wire guided missiles.

>>15616893
It's not that magical really, the M1 weighs as much as a Tiger 1 yet it's armor has somewhere like 5x the performance. Keep in mind the M1's gun weighs more than the Tigers so in terms of just armor the Abrams is actually lighter.

>>15616990
Yes, in ep2 of 08th Shiro looks into the gun of a 90mm GM gun and it is rifled.

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>>15618276
But that gun have trouble shooting upwards and the crews are exposed to sniper fire. Why not just slap a turret with cannon and missiles into armored cars where the crews are inside?

>>15616648
People really need to stop conflating caliber size with power. A .50 AE is a lot less powerful than a .50 BMG. The Zaku's machine gun is probably also a lot less powerful than the 120 mm main guns you see on most MBTs today.

>>15616772
Also, they were made for anti-ship SPACE combat.
I'm going to bet the specs would have been completely different if they were designed for anti-tank Earth combat.

>>15616806
Federation didn't use Gundarium until Z, though.

during OYW everything as either Steel or Luna Titanium alloys

>>15618379
Gundarium alpha is just another name for luna titanium armor.

>>15618383
didn't know that. Thank you.

>>15618379
Most of the Federation's suits and some of Zeon's late war suits use conventional titanium alloys for armor.

>>15618361
Honestly, considering that the pan magazine on the 120mm cannon is usually described as holding 100 rounds, those 120mm shells probably have fairly short casings.

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>>15618447
The pan mag is something like 4 meters in diameter. It's enormous.

>>15618279
That's pretty neat actually.

>>15618361
Nah, it's as powerful as 120mm guns on MBTs in Igloo. See around 1:15 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikB8B26OUpE

>>15618456
>Physical selector
>Not electronically selected in the cockpit
DEFEND THIS ZEEKS

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>>15618841
Uhh...m-muh ideals!

>>15616648
>tanks
>muh HESH/APHFDS rounds meme
>vs these Zakus

explain.

>>15618839
As powerful sounds like an understatement. That first tank completely shattered into pieces after taking a single hit.

>>15617220
Zakus were designed for space. On Earth zeon used planes and weird land ships way more than the rare zaku.

If the 120mm machine gun was as insanely powerful as the caliber suggests, would they have even needed the bazookas?

>>15618897
Yes, it's a matter of propulsion and weapons designed to work in space sent to earth.

>>15618897
>Would they have even needed the bazookas?
The 120mm doesn't even work against LTA, so yes, they definitely needed the bazookas.

Getting more realistic though, the mechanics of rockets/missiles and cannon-fired projectiles are quite different, and allow for different things. There's a reason why rockets and guided missiles have been popular for delivering death and destruction. To my understanding, because they're self propelled you can field larger payloads. There's also that advantage of not needing all those nasty parts that make a typical firearm function.

>>15618361
>>15618839
>>15618874
I know it's not canon per se but in the game Zeonic Front (which tried to be very gritty grunty), it was treated the same way. Fighting a tank was always 1 shot 1 kill from the 120mm MG.

>>15618841
I'm guessing that they hadn't developed a proper hand-to-grip contact transmitter, yet.

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>>15618375
I imagine that is why the 90mm machine gun was developed.

>>15616648
>So am I understanding this correctly? Even the most basic variants of the Zaku II are armed with an AUTOMATIC 120mm gun, and the Federation sent regular tanks to fight them?
there is an old saying, "You go to war with the Army you have, not the one you want."

>>15618948
Everything but the Beam Spray Gun will one shot a tank, so saying they can one shot a tank isn't really indicative of power.

What about Heat Hawks? They seem more useful against Gundam's armor than the machine gun, at least, but I'm not sure how useful they would be for stuff besides mobile suit to mobile suit hand-to-hand combat.

>>15619023
If I recall, the heat hawks were made for chopping through ship hulls. If they can do that I figure anything smaller would just get vaporized by the extreme temperature radiating from the blade. Against smaller vehicles or infantry I don't think you'd even need to make direct physical contact, just a close enough swipe would probably be fatal.

>>15616722
Half naked women?

>>15619051
Seems a bit superfluous when you've got a 120mm machine gun and a giant bazooka, but I guess I'm not a far future spaceman engineer.

>>15619097
Probably functions something like a combat knife in modern kits, last resort type of shit or discarded by the actual troops.

>>15619097
Well, machineguns require ammo and aren't as precise or damaging as a heat hawk, which is important when we're talking about a giant ship like a Magellan or a Salamis. Obviously the bazooka is ideal, but not everyone can run around with a bazooka.

There's also the utility angle. Heat hawk provides a unique service by being able to carve through metal like butter. For an idea of what I'm talking about I suggest watching The Shining.

>>15616648

Literally their only option because of minovsky particle bs. Otherwise they would have gotten murked by fighters

>>15616977

>08th MS team is realistic

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>>15617084
I put their alleged superior mobility to the test.

>>15618839
>drop pods flying like ufos instead of just breaking the fall with rockets and then parachuting down
Worst interpretation of that design

>>15618897
They are not so insanely powerful against Mobile Suit armor, due to low penetrative power. Also, they are completely defeated by the GM's standard issue LTA shield, where a bazooka would at least destroy the shield.

For Feddies, in the Origin they state that beam weaponry has range/accuracy disadvantages on Earth due to the atmosphere, so that's supposedly their reason for developing the Hyper Bazooka (lolname)

>>15619134
>so that's supposedly their reason for developing the Hyper Bazooka
The reason for developing the Hyper Bazooka is that beam weapons are expensive as fuck and don't blow things up. Sometimes you need to blow things up instead of just punching holes in things.

>>15618971
That or like the trigger it's a manual backup in case an ms without the correct software picks it up.

>>15619115
>08th MS Team is realisticish

there, now it's true enough!

>>15619131
In Igloo they can jump like kilometers at a time so it might be hard to hit them with artillery.

>>15619141
That's true enough. Attacking a base or something where you're hitting structures and lesser ground units, a bazooka would be way better than a beam rifle. I just remember that in Origin, there's a scene where Amuro switches out his rifle for a bazooka and he also puts on a GM Cannon-esque backpack mod, and they say the main reason they're doing that is the atmosphere's effect on beam weapons.

>>15619131
By the time the Dom is around that wouldn't be as nearly as useful. Assuming there's interceptor missiles to protect them then it's even less effective.

>>15619768
I always found it ironic that the Federation used vulcans on most of their suits while Zeon didn't. Zeon had a lot more to fear from missiles, rockets, and small conventional vehicles than the Federation did.

Zaku IIs with head vulcans would've been a bit less killable before October.

>>15619776
Yeah, but I think having them means you need a head that can turn to accommodate them. Zaku's and Dom's can only move their eyes as far as I understand it.

>>15619776
>>15619782
A few of those existed, but only as elite customs.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msv/ms-06fs.htm

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>>15619782
That is... 100% not a thing. I can't say for certain in the Dom's case, but the Zaku absolutely can move its head. A lot of Zeon mobile suits didn't have a 360 degree monoeye track, so they had to have that capability.

>>15619800
The Origin Zaku IIs actually have optional equipment that mounts guns on the arms that can act as vulcans.

>>15616820
>at least for most European MBT and the Abrams use 105mm smoothbore cannons

Abrams and mainline euro-tanks haven't used 105s since the 80s.

>>15619131
>220mm cluster fragmentation

So in other words those can't seriously damage anything with some real armor?
Why are they drawn raining down on main battle tanks?

Only HEAT warheads or extremely large quantities of explosive could destroy a tank by falling from a missile like that, if that were a barrage of good 'ol cannon artillery it'd be a nightmare for the tonks' thin top-armor though.

>>15620135
Hell if I know. The English text near the top says it's for use against unarmored vehicles. The 9M27K2 can carry anti-tank mines, but it's meant for remote minelaying rather than as an actual anti-tank weapon by itself.

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While one shouldn't go full autism about weapons in chinese cartoons, speculating about MS weapons is too much fun.

The early Zaku II 120mm machine guns are commonly shown ejecting short and non-necked casings, in style of a pistol cartridge such as a 9mm or .45ACP.
While this makes for more capacity in a single magazine, it also means the projectiles have relatively low kinetic energy and poor range if fired colony/planet-side.

The low kinetic energy of the round would not be that much of a problem if it wasn't for the fact that the Gundam universe seems to lack the technology, knowledge or perhaps economy to field advanced munitions. It seems as if Mobile Suit machine guns and bazookas only fire HE and ball shells, as the rifle projectiles usually explode or bounce more or less harmlessly off Federation MS's, and bazooka rounds will only shatter a shield, leaving the arm and MS holding the shield unharmed.
If every single fat, 120mm slug in a 100 round magazine carried a HEDP or HEAT payload to better defeat armor, the sheer amount of liquid metal lancing through the target should be enough to bring a suit down. It would at the very least do more than just having the HE filling explode off the outside of the armor plates.

>>15620541
Now if we could see what the 90mm rounds looked like

>>15616648
EF dumped all their military development budget on the Gundam and used whatever they had before it was finished?

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>>15620560
Looking at the magazine, I'd like to imagine something along the profile of a 5.7x28 or 7.92x33 kurz.
Pic related depicts something more along the lines of 9x39; and while that has a longer case than the old 120mm, having another non-necked cartridge when you want more armor penetration seems counter productive.
Then again, the AP variant of the 9x39 supposedly has quite a bit of penetration power.

>all this talk about tanks
>no talk about the Hidolfr and its 300mm cannon

>>15620541
wouldn't liquid metal, and other non solid metal elements, be a bitch to animate in space sequences?

>>15616906
Wing MS (and X, I think, and a few more) have ludicrous densities. UC stuff is merely ridiculous.

>>15620704
The actual jet of focused molten metal only exists for a fraction of a moment, and if one really wanted to animate the actual molten jet rather than the explosion that creates it, a simple "laser" beam inside of the target will suffice.
And the aftermath of a HEAT charge is not unlike that of beam weaponry, as their mode of damage is fairly similar. So no need to animate more molten metal there than they already do.