>Takes painstaking care to never fire at the cockpit of an

>>15605629
Here's a question for you guys.

If Rey hadn't killed Durandal and Kira fired the shot, what would the fallout be like among the viewers.

>>15605647
I'd like Kira more, he killed Rau why not kill Durandal too

If you want to talk about fuck-ups in that scene, they put Athrun in that room in the Special Edition and yet he doesn't say a fucking word to Talia, Durandal or Rey. He just fucking stands there

>>15605629
>At the end of Destiny he straight up flies into Requiem and indiscriminately fires off his Meteor in every fucking direction probably killing hundreds of people stationed there

"If it's not directly shown, it doesn't count."

>>15605656
You do see debris falling onto people in the control room with Durandal though as they scream

>>15605647
It'd make him a hypocrite, and people who hated him for stealing the show would hate him even more, and people who liked him would say it had to be done.


That's why Rey survived getting blasted. SOMEONE has to shoot Durandal, so he can die and make room for Lacus to rule. Kira, the new old main character HAS to have a showdown with the villain at the end of the series, even if it's the first time they've ever interacted

And well, so we can make it dramatic, Talia, who left Durandal because she wanted a kid, decides that she's going to die with Gilbert and Rey, and we try and push this "poor tragic family" angle at the last moment, and Talia asks the guy that has literally put her in this situation to watch over her kid, even though her leaving to have this kid is what made this situation in the first place!

I'm baffled, I'm just baffled on how the more I think about this ending, the worst it gets. Kenichi Suzumura got fucking ROBBED.

Kira never had a hard and fast no killing rule, he merely tried to avoid it when possible. He stabbed Rau through the cockpit, and tried to slice Shinn's Impulse in half when desperate. He was ready to shoot Durandal in the head. A minor subplot is when Kira shoots the Minerva's beam cannon as it was charging, causing a explosion and killing several ZAFT crewmembers. Athrun is angry at Kira taking lives like this, and Kira doesn't deny that he knew his actions would take lives.

>>15605682
At least Suzumura has every SRW game ever, Banpresto fucking loves Shinn

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>>15605716
Oh, he's doing pretty well for himself now. We all see Sunrise trying to play off his popularity with the remaster putting him on the front cover and what not.
It's a cool picture, don't get me wrong. But it's a little too late in the day to pretend like you gave a fuck before he became HUEG

The least they could have done was give him a cool fight scene at the end, but shit, not even that.

>>15605629
Iirc there's a scene in either the final battle of SEED or Destiny where Kira or Athrun destroyed the interior of one of those fortresses and as they fly by you see a guy in a space suit trying to revive a dead comrade.

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>>15605629
Kira's 'no kill' policy only applies to Mobile Suits. If you're in a spaceship or space station he doesn't give a fuck.

>>15605721
They could've played the final battle with SF and Destiny winning each of their fights against Legend and IJ respectively.
With both MS battered from their previous fights, a final battle between SF and Destiny would surely be better and made more sense since Bandai pit the SF against Destiny in every promotional media with the IJ being largely ignored despite being the one to take Shinn down.
Instead, we got the shitty FLAWLESS VICTORY.

>>15605702

This. Kira's policy isn't "I will never kill anyone ever even if it dooms me and all my friends" its "I won't kill every single person that crosses my path just because I can."

He doesn't kill people fighting him needlessly but if it comes down to risking some kills to disable a ship or killing someone that's clearly gone too far and can't be stopped otherwise (like Rau and Stella) he'll do it because he can't ignore ships, and he won't let others die to prove a point.

Even then he minimizes damage. Yeah he killed 10 Minerva guys when he shot out the cannon because it was either that or let them waste everyone with the Tanhauser but he could have easily just blown up the whole ship instead.

>>15605776
So what's the difference between Kira trying not to kill people and say Loran, who also goes out of his way to avoid killing when he can? Or even the first Lockon Stratos, who actively complained when enemy mobile suits were moving all over the place so he couldn't easily destroy their head units to disable them?

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>>15605781

Kira is shitted on because /m/'s hate boner for him and Lacus along with the whole LOL AIMBOT schtick

>>15605791

Those are some really WILD BOY sideburns there.

>>15605776
Right, dooming his friends is the policy of Kio,
>>15605781
Wasn't it a Celestial Being policy not to needlessly kill their enemies since they were so stupidly OP?

>>15605828
Its probably just Lockon's personal preference.
Tieria was pretty ruthless with blast everything with GN cannon early on.

>>15605776
My only problem with this is that there had to be a point earlier in the Freedom vs Impulse fight where Kira would've gone for killshots.

>>15605738
>Don't kill a handful of mobile suits, act high and mighty
>Cut down a ship probably manned by thousands of people

>>15605655
That was in Final Plus as well.
It made no sense for him to be there anyways.

>>15606005
They wanted to pretend that Athrun was the third protagonist of Destiny, instead of the janky Shinn -> Kira transition that we got.

>>15605716
not k or sc2

>>15606007
It's not "janky" if you believe Kira was the protagonist from the start. Which he kinda was.

And I never liked the idea of Athrun being the protagonist, he was always more the deuteragonist.

>>15605629
Kira isn't Kio. He does his best to keep his casualties to a minimum, but if he's in a situation where there's no better solution than he'll do this.

The actual problem people have with Kira that /m/ seems to have forgotten is how the show magically drops the Freedom into his lap. Kira decides he can't just ruthlessly kill enemies anymore after seeing how Nicol's death affected Athrun? Okay, sure! That is character development, that is a good thing. Kira just getting handed a super machine that can precisely disable opponents so Kira doesn't have to try that hard to keep people alive? That's a copout.

>>15606043
SEED's biggest problem is its moral simplicity. Which isn't a surprise, considering the director, but still.

>There are good people on both sides! What do we do?
>Let's have all the good people form their own SUPER GOOD third side and save the day!

>I want to protect my friends, but I can no longer morally justify killing people to do it! What do I do?
>I'll pilot a ridiculously advanced machine that shoots no kill rainbows!

>This is a tricky political situation caused in part by stubbornness on everyone's sides. If I charge in without warning I could make everything worse.
>BUT MY SISTER IS CRYING SO IT MUST BE WRONG!

>>15606051

You'd think he'd just shoot out the engines of the Minerva and smash the Takemikazuchi's propulsion so that both ZAFT and Orb are forced to fuck off back to their bases for a good period of time, thereby at least prolonging the time both sides stay away from each other.

>>15606057
There are tons of things Kira could've done to prevent battles while minimizing casualties (inflicted by himself and others), but he only ever seemed to show up after a fight had already started.

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>>15605629
He never made oath to not kill anyone.

He will try not to kill them, but if they die, he won't have hard sleep over it.

>>15606007
>>15606012
I mean, a good part of Destiny's beginning focuses primarily on Athrun. Shinn's only screentime is in a mobile suit and when he does talk, it's almost always completely related to Orb and/or Athrun. Saying Athrun was the protagonist is not unreasonable. Even Kira 'taking over' only happens after Athrun leaves ZAFT. Kira gains the sympathetic POV and Shinn loses his all happen when Athrun defects. The only time Shinn contributes to the plot is when Stella gets captured. Before then, all his non-mobile suit screentime relates to Athrun, be it Athrun's leaving ZAFT after the first war, Athrun coming back to ZAFT, Athrun trying to teach Shinn but failing. It's all Athrun. Even the climactic mobile suit showdown is between Athrun and Shinn, while Kira goes off to fight Rey who's no where near as capable as the other 3 main characters.

>>15605781
I don't think people hate Kira for not killing people, I think that just kind of gets lumped in as another entry on the list of aspects of his hypocritical holier than thou attitude, and that's what people hate.

>>15605828
>>15605991
It's a somewhat understated but nevertheless explicit fact that Celestial Being outright killed a *lot* of people who were just doing their jobs as soldiers. In the particular instance I'm thinking of Lockon was fighting wasn't even fighting military forces, they were basically rebel miners in glorified forklifts, a power disparity so great (even compared to their normal fare) that Lockon felt uncomfortable crushing them outright, and so settled for plinking off weapons since he had the luxury of doing so on that occasion.

>>15606007
You're wrong? The seiyuu of Shinn and Athrun appear first in the credits, they were clearly meant to be the main duo.

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>>15606147
00 is very self-aware.

>>15605781
>>15606043
Yeah, that's probably it. Not killing people is usually more effort or risk for a protagonist than killing them, so it comes down to a conflict between morality and expediency. I've not seen Turn A, but I do recall a scene in Crossbone where Tobia's crew chews him out for wrecking his suit and nearly dying trying to save an enemy kamikaze pilot rather than just killing him, it's clearly presented as a personal moral choice with risks and potential consequences.

But Kira gets to have his cake and eat it because he can effortlessly disable almost any opponent with the push of a button, meaning he gets to lord his moral high ground and keep his hands clean without any kind of struggle or effort and that's what leaves a sour taste in people's mouths.

>>15605629
This is why I think that Kira's relationship with Flay in SEED was such a good idea, even if it was executed poorly. The reason is that it helps to explain why Kira, a character who is against killing, well keeps going into battle and keeps killing, without making him a closeted edgelord.

That is the biggest problem with SEED as a whole actually when it comes to Kira, perhaps even all characters within SEED as whole actually. Because he really works, as a character, when he is put in a position where there is no clear solution. That was why his interactions with Flay were so interesting as it displayed his vulnerabilities. It also showed that, in some respects, he was quite shitty as a person.

That would have been the most interesting path for his character to take, a character who tries to align his ideals to reality, rather than overpowering reality with his ideals. The idea of a protagonist who is incredibly idealistic and moral, while at the same time being, well a less than great human being would be very interesting.

I still stand by my thoughts that Flay should have been the female lead rather than Lacus and the pilot of the Rogue. The whole examination of two individuals on opposite sides of the spectrum of cynicism and ideology coming to an understanding as the series went on would be far better than the immediate 'love' of Lacus and Kira

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>>15606193
>It also showed that, in some respects, he was quite shitty as a person.
Yeah, NTR-ing his friend and being all smug about it.

>>15606156
>now

The other kids in that spaceship and enemy pilots didn't count?

>>15606202
Don't forget NTRing his sister at the same time.

>>15606193
It's spelled Rouge.

>>15606193
Turning her into what Lacus currently is supposed to be will probably be more profound than what Morosawa wanted.

If they really wanted to hammer in the core message of co-existence, they should've had her realize that Coordinators are just as flawed and as human as the Naturals through Kira. Though she just needs to start off as not hilariously anti-Coordinator.

Flay's characterization is just being the anti-thesis of Lacus. They had the oppurtunity to paint everything in gray through the interaction of both, like Flay knowing about April Fools, and Lacus defending her father's actions.

a more competent writer wouldn't have wasted Flay and Lacus' similar disposition.

>>15606206
That's Allelujah. The kids on the space ship were muttered by Hallelujah.

>>15606224
If Flay were to be the main heroine, they'd probably scale back the Coordinator hate to "extreme distrust of Coordinators"

>>15606206
>>15606242
Yeah, it's a notable part of his arc in S1 that he kills with his own hands and takes responsibility for it rather than distancing himself from the act by palming it off on his more willing alternate personality.

>>15606224
My mistake.

As for Flay learning that Coordinators and Naturals were flawed through Kira, that seemed to what they were trying to for. She also isn't completely batshit till the death of her father so you could tone down that a bit.

As for her being the Anti-Lacus, I honestly feel like that could have been really well executed, both through what you said and something else entirely. Lacus could have been something similar to a 'dream', an ideal person, while Flay could have represented 'reality', were people are messy and complicated. As the series went on, Flay could become more idealistic about her world, slowly learning about the good in people, while Lacus could become more jaded as she saw the darkness in the hearts of others.

>>15606246
This would probably be the case too. To be honest though, I think that if fleshed out Rau a bit more while keeping some key interactions between him, Flay and Kira (Don't ask me how, I'm not a miracle worker), the whole relationship between the three could have been very interesting. Kira seeing Rau as nothing more than a deranged manic, while Flay sees the more vulnerable and human side of him, and it being ambiguous which held more truth.

>>15606253
>. As the series went on, Flay could become more idealistic about her world, slowly learning about the good in people, while Lacus could become more jaded as she saw the darkness in the hearts of others.

The thing here is that it'll be profound if this is what happened.

Lacus becomes filled with negativity that she gives Kira the Freedom to test her hypothesis.

Kira tries to save the AA, more violently this time. Kira tries to end the war WITH FORCE.

at the same time while this is happening, Flay still joins the Vesalius crew, but this time she realizes earlier what she needs to do.

So she meets Athrun and realizes that Athrun is the friend Kira was talking about, and she realizes that both were reluctant to Kill each other. She reveals that she's Kira's friend and bravely tells Athrun that Kira feels the same way.

setting up JUSTICE VS FREEDOM

>>15606280
That would actually be quite interesting. Not the path I would have taken, but interesting none the less.

>>15606280
>Athrun and Flay meet
>Flay realizing that Kira was reluctant to do his best because this guy was his friend.
>Athrun realizing that Flay was the one who tried to kill Lacus
>they start talking to each other and find commonality of being Kira's friend.

I didn't know how much I wanted this

>>15606681
and then they fuck

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Anyway, watching the Destiny remaster right now. They did such a shabby job and still took the money. How shameless.

>Lacus could have been something similar to a 'dream', an ideal person, while Flay could have represented 'reality', were people are messy and complicated. As the series went on, Flay could become more idealistic about her world, slowly learning about the good in people, while Lacus could become more jaded as she saw the darkness in the hearts of others.

This should've been the conflict between them two. The resolution is either them meeting in the middle, or them being completely the inverse of each other and become female versions of Char and Amuro

>>15606280
>>15607338

>SEED Ends with Justice vs Freedom
>Kira and Athrun kill each other

>Lacus and Flay continue the rivalry in S2.

>>15605629
If you couldn't tell Kira is a huge hypocrite piece of shit after most of SEED then you're probably a natural.

>WAAAAH I HAVE TO FIGHT MY FRIEND IN COMBAT WE REALLY DON'T GET SERIOUS ABOUT
>POOR ME IT'S SO HARD BEING SO STRONG OH THIS WOMAN LOOKS GOOD SORRY BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME BASARA
>OH NO HER DUMB ASS DIED FUCK I'LL NEVER FORGET HER PROTECTING ME FROM LA CREUST
>THIS PINK HAIR BITCH LOOKS GOOD I'LL START RAILING HER. WHO'S FLAY?

>>15607356
Kira in the first half of SEED was really conflicted, but never sounded ridiculously self-righteous. He was aware that his actions are wrong.

He only becomes that self-righteous, arrogant bastard after Miss Lady of the lake pretty much gives him the gamebreaking sword.

>>15607370
>He only becomes that self-righteous, arrogant bastard after Miss Lady of the lake pretty much gives him the gamebreaking sword.
You don't get it. He died a man and resurrected as a god - really meta.

>>15607370

Upon rewatching SEED after Destiny, I feel that Kira always did have a self-righteous aspect. Athrun too, complaining about how wrong everyone else is. The thing with Kira though is I feel he had to do a lot of things he didn't want to in early SEED because he didn't have a choice. His survival was on the line and the Strike just wasn't powerful enough. When he gets the Freedom, he gets the power to do as he pleases resulting in his personality ascending to holier than thou.

>>15605738
literally everyone had abandoned ship. Its just a display of power.

>>15607338
Yep. This sounds like a great plan, no matter which direction it goes.

Flay=Amuro

Lacus=Char

>>15607370
See, that was the thing. The way I saw Kira is that he thought he was doing the right thing, that he believe he was right, the dissonance between his life as a civilian, the morality was clashing between what he was doing. What he was doing with Flay was validating himself through their relationship. Validating to himself that he was a good person, that he was not a murder and that he was instead a guardian.

>>15607401
I honestly don't think SEED is meant to be that deep.

>>15607811

Looks just like something Fukuda would post on his twitter years after the show's end.

>>15607818
>See, that was the thing. The way I saw Kira is that he thought he was doing the right thing, that he believe he was right, the dissonance between his life as a civilian, the morality was clashing between what he was doing. What he was doing with Flay was validating himself through their relationship. Validating to himself that he was a good person, that he was not a murder and that he was instead a guardian.

This is actually what I'm talking about. Kira is very conflicted about things in the first half that he genuinely looks like a kid who just wants to protect his friends, nothing holier-than-thou about it.

>Yep. This sounds like a great plan, no matter which direction it goes.

meeting in the middle works more to SEED's supposed theme of co-existence. I would literally kill to see someone try to develop both of them to this resolution. SEED ultimately fails its message by killing her off, because the conflict she has with Lacus is the microcosm of the whole EA-PLANT conflict. Killing off Flay meant that in the end, Coordinators will rule the earth and there's nothing but death for the Naturals. Which Destiny hilariously confirms.

I still say it would have been more impressive if Kira had been able to preach all of this without killing a single soul. Naive? Yes. Idealistic? Yes. Shocking as all hell in a Gundam series? FUUUUCK YES

>>15608242
he'd have to go full Kenshin if he did it.

>>15608249
At least Kenshin had to fucking struggle sometimes because of his self-inflicted handicap. Kira is like if Kenshin had been handed a sword that cut straight through all other weapons, but never cut flesh.

>>15608249
That'd be interesting to see in a mecha show!

>>15608255
> if Kenshin had been handed a sword that cut straight through all other weapons, but never cut flesh.
His second Sakabatou is exactly that. Combined with Hiten-Mitsurugi Ryu, it can cut through everything.

>>15608257
Kira is already sorta like Kenshin.

Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Flay somehow had a younger brother and is plotting to kill Kira by luring him with Lacus.

>>15608273
Does Athrun get deported in this too?

>>15606082
Pretty much this.

I understand people not liking Athrun, since even his own VA doesn't seem to understand what his problem is, but pretending he wasn't the major focus character for the pre-Kira takeover just makes you look like you didn't watch the show.

>>15608339
the problem with installing Athrun as the protagonist of Destiny is that he barely does anything for 3/4 of the anime. It's still Shinn that does most of the things.


the real problem with Destiny's writing is that they didn't earn Durandal's villainy. I thought that ep1 did good to set up the initial conflict, but it falls flat when Kira and Lacus finally show up because they're pretty much caricatures at this point.

There's nothing that you could throw at Kira for him to even have a conflict, which made him very, very boring.

>>15607370

In Seed he's thinks his actions are wrong, although to be fair, they aren't. First half he's just trying to keep himself and his friends alive after Zaft basically blew up their home. 2nd half he'strying to bust up the war before one side genocides the other (and likely both) playing it's Rau's hands.

It's Destiny where he briefly thinks maybe he's wrong after all but every time he does Durandal does something shifty again, reigniting his belief that he's evil and out to get them.

>>15607307
The remaster is trash.

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>>15608641
The remaster is Kira's version of the events. There's absolutely no way Kira accidentally killed Nicol.

>>15608837
But he did.

>>15608498
I mean, Durandal actually is evil and out to get them. They wouldn't have done anything if he hadn't tried to kill them.

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>>15608641
You mean you wouldn't this pretty girl (male)?

Wasn't this guy called Jesus back when it was airing or am I thinking of someone else?

>>15609223
Jesus Yamato was a thing pretty much immediately after his impossible survival of the Aegis blowing up itself and the Strike at point-blank with a giant hole gouged in the cockpit so that the seat melted. It was such an implausible survival that Astray tried to explain it and still couldn't manage a fully reasonable explanation.

>>15609248

Well that and the final arc treating him like the Messiah.

Though it really stuck in Destiny since following Angel Down he's survived death improbably, or rose from the dead, 3 times. When Aegis blew on up, in the Seed finale when he got blasted by Genesis, and finally in Angel Down when Shinn blows up Freedom.

>>15609187
Nope.

>>15608197
Goddamnit, SEED had so much good shit that it could do. Why couldn't we have had a good writer and director on this scenario?

>>15605629
Did you miss that whole scene of him shanking Providence at the end of SEED? Kira would like to keep casualties to a minimum, but he's not some Kio-level magic pacifist.

>>15611165
Rau is an exception. There's no way he was surviving after he killed Flay