Durandal: >Hey guys I made this thing called the Destiny

Kira didn't wanna lose his job.

>>15591567
Durandal having two superweapons pointed at the Earth was a bit of a problem, and we'd already seen that the Destiny Plan was really motivated by his butthurt over not being allowed to fuck Talia because they weren't fertile. Not exactly trustworthy motives there. It comes across more like he wants everyone else to be miserable because he had to be miserable.

Plus he made a duplicate of Lacus to manipulate the populace and tried to have the original killed. "Hurrdurr no it could have been Logos." No it fucking wasn't. Everything points to it having been Durandal. You fuckwits complain about how braindead simple the story of SEED is and then can't connect the dots the minute something isn't spoonfed to you. Durandal did it. From extremely early in the show there's something clearly wrong with him, both to the audience and to Kira and Lacus.

>>15591596
>Durandal having two superweapons pointed at the Earth was a bit of a problem,

yeah, Only Kira is allowed to have treaty breaking super weapons.

>Everything points to it having been Durandal.

No a magic notebook floating in space pointed it to be Durandal. Kira couldn't prove shit and meta knowledge doesn't count.

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>>15591596

So, MUH GENES?

>>15591627

Wasn't at the end game (right before killing Djibril) everyone have their own "treaty defying weapons" at that point?

EA: Girty Lue (Mirage Colloid) and Requiem
TSA: Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice (NJC)
ZAFT: Neo Genesis (NJC) and Destiny (Mirage Colloid, not even sure why it was installed)

>No a magic notebook floating in space pointed it to be Durandal

Then maybe Durandal should also thought ahead and not have his spec-ops team use brand new MSs that just rolled off the factory (Andy's comment) to carry out the assassination attempt.

>>15591567
>Instead of spending your childhood floundering around to find what you're good at we are going to use your genes to set you up for the job you're hard wired for
>you'll be happy doing a job you love
That's assuming the thing I'm efficient at and the thing I enjoy doing are one and the same. They might not be.

>>15591669

Maybe Lacus shouldn't have been hiding the Freedom in a secret underground bunker as well as her own battle ship after starting a war.

>>15591678
Damn, you just shifted that goalpost pretty hard. I didn't even realize phase shift worked on them.

>>15591567
Why did Durandal agro one of the most powerful figures in the show right off the bat? He could have gotten so much further if he had not pulled that shitty assassination attempt and waited for Lacus and Kira to find things out on their own.

>>15591678
Why not? It all worked out in her favor in the end.

>>15591567
Huh it's almost like Kira valued Freedom above all else, similar to how Athrun sided with ZAFT initially for the sake of Justice, and Shinn acted on Impulse up until he just resigned himself to his Destiny.

Could it be that SEED utilized extremely basic thematic naming to drive home points about the characters??

>>15591669
Why even bring the mobile suits when you could just airstrike the fuck out of the orphanage instead?

>>15591675
It wouldn't make sense if you didn't.

>>15591700
I assume they wanted the operation to have low visibili- actually, why even involve Mobile Suits in that case?

>>15591723
Couldn't they have just bombed the house with a bunch of mustard gas canisters if they wanted low visibility?
Oh wait I guess the invinceible ultimate co-ordinaters lungs expel it.

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>>15591700

>Trying to assassinate someone
>Uses something that will likely be detected by radar and depending on how it played out it will become a diplomatic nightmare for PLANT

Remember, the sneaking in attempt almost worked too if it wasn't for Pink Haro detecting the intruders

>>15591723

They probably acts as weapon of last resort if the commandos failed, I don't think they actually expected they would face Kira and Freedom

>>15591698
How would Providence and Saviour play into this?

>>15591734
If only that damn children's toy wasn't there...

>>15591735
Rau is manipulating everything to try to kill everybody, as he's judged them as unworthy of living. He's playing God, as if he has divine Providence.

Athrun is a famous war hero, brought back to fight for ZAFT. I'd imagine many in ZAFT's ranks would see him on the battlefield as a Saviour, helping to turn the tides in their favor.

>>15591683

This

>>15591723

They were ideal for sneaking into Orb underwater undetected.

They only actually tried to level the place as a last resort after their initial hit failed saying failure wasn't an option.

>>15591627
>>15591669

Freedom might have an illegal power source but it's definitely not a WMD. It's just a powerful mobile suit, that Kira even limits himself with to minimize casualties.

Requiem and Genesis are big ass laser beams designed to target colonies and cities on Earth for genocide purposes.

They don't compare at all.

>>15591669
The treaty breaks down basically the instant the war starts. The very first thing the EA does is try to nuke the shit out of ZAFT, except ZAFT knew they were coming and uses their new make-your-nukes-blow-up superweapon. That's the opening exchange.

By the end of the war literally everybody has NJC-equipped mobile suits. The fucking Junk Guild has an NJC-equipped mobile suit. Nearly everyone is using Mirage Colloid as well, including the Junk Guild but not including the TSA. Keep in mind, while story-wise Durandal pulls Messiah and Neo-GENESIS out of his ass, timeline-wise he has to have started construction on it before the war began, meaning ZAFT was violating the treaty too. Basically the treaty was just a useless piece of paper that literally nobody paid any more than lip service to, and it's hard to blame Kira for violating it by keeping the Freedom in storage when every single other faction violated it just as hard if not harder.

>>15591567
I don't know. The theme of the show was about being free to make your own decisions and not forcing people onto a path they don't want. It just did it incredibly poorly when it came to Shinn because he stops making his own decisions and becomes a secondary villain.

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>>15591710
Just because you're good at being a fucking McDonalds cashier doesn't mean you'll like it, dumb nigger.

>>15591710

If you're a mopey teenager and all you need to be satisfied in life is a head pat and being told you're doing a good job with something that you aren't too much of a fuck up to do then yes.

But most people aren't like that. In fact only Shinn and Rey are like that.

Which is the crux of the Destiny Plan problem. Durandal seems to be basing it off the experiences of a few unfortunate people that got screwed (like himself, Rau and Shinn) and seems to believe everyone in the world is just like that.

You get a direct counter with Kira's group, all of whom are very good and born to do their jobs, yet don't really want to do any of it and would rather work civillian jobs in Orb than be a battleship crew (in Kira and Lacus's case they'd rather run an orphanage)

Or Durandal's constant bafflement that Athrun isn't happy as a clam being a respected solider and just doing his job for the sake of medals and praise while not bothering to think on what he's actually doing.

>>15591567
>>Hey guys I made this thing called the Destiny Plan. Instead of spending your childhood floundering around to find what you're good at we are going to use your genes to set you up for the job you're hard wired for so you'll live a rich and satisfying life in the long run. Yeah this may take some choice out of the equation but you'll be happy doing a job you love and war will be all but erradicated.

Remember kids:
>Seed
>"We basically want this so that we can have a Brave New World"

>Instrumentality of Man
>"We found out that genetically engineered witch doctors and weapon-grade psychic dragon-fuckers increase the success rates of colony projects significantly. Also cat girls for domestic ownership."

>>15591567
>the world
From memory the only countries that actually opposed the plan were Orb, the Scandinavians and Lacus' merry band. Hardly the majority.

>>15591567
If he had only suggested to them about his plan, it probably would've been extremely easy to get a ton of support, especially since he was basically loved by everyone in the world at this point. His biggest mistake was threatening them with his superweapons.

>>15591567
Durandal was wrong because genetic predisposition is literally not destiny.

>>15591567

Putting aside that genetics has little, if anything to do with what you enjoy why would I trust people who can't even stop genetic deficiency that renders your children sterile with deciding what job I'll have for my whole life based solely on genetics? How does the Destiny Plan account for apathy in knowledge or training if someone is guaranteed a job regardless of what they know? How does it account for social mobility?

>>15591567
Wait wait wait. You have the understanding of epigenetics needed to perfectly chart out the thing a person is most suited to do...and you're wasting it on some social order bullshit? Durandal. Gil. You could literally be making everyone into post-singularity super beings with that tech. What the fuck are you doing, man?

The writer unintentionally made the character too sympathetic and realized at the last minute they needed a big bad so forced him to start pulling retarded shit out his ass.

Up until the superweapons nonsense I agreed with everything he said.

>>15592023

The Atlantic Federation denounced the plan and stated their intention to resist it. Then their president at one of their lunar bases, attempting to contact Durandal while the Atlantic Federation mobilizes, was then promptly hit with a Requiem curveball. Everybody then gets their game faces on and the final few episodes happen.

>>15592355

The writer made him suspect since episode one and continued pushing him as suspicious for most of the show, making him out right evil in the run up to the finale. Which is generally how big bads are written.

>>15592281
He sent armed assassins to an orphanage right at the beginning of the show, how is that sympathetic?

>>15591993
Hell, unless Siegel really had a thing for idols it's more than likely Lacus was meant (designed?) to go into politics, which she went out of her way to avoid until everyone went completely stupid and/or murderous.

>>15591596
>comes across more like he wants everyone else to be miserable because he had to be miserable.
It came across to me more like he *didn't* want people to be miserable like him. He just didn't have anyone to tell him how fucking moronic his plan for doing so was.

>he made a duplicate of Lacus to manipulate the populace
The populace were out for blood and for whatever reason would ignore any calls for moderation unless they came from a pop singer. It should be suspect, but because SEED is so retarded it actually coms across completely legit.

>>15592400
No, that's what they were obviously trying to accomplish. But because they bungled it completely, what they actually ended up doing was having him be the only person who came across as halfway reasonable while everyone else is frothing at the mouth. So, they have Kira and co. find his old college notebook with all his evil plans on it to establish him as a cartoon villain. But the damage was done by that point.

>>15592400
No? Rewatching Destiny now and Durandal is one of the least suspicious characters in the early episodes, with a clear agenda.

>>15592438
He's the #1 suspect for assassinating Lacus, and that never changes, the viewer just has to play naive like Shinn to ignore it.

>>15592052
I think the second half of Destiny should not even be something to talk about, since it falls apart completely. It's a perfect example of writing going wrong and I bet whoever worked on it, sans Fukuda and his wife, hated how it turned out.

>>15592443
>He's the #1 suspect for assassinating Lacus
This happens in episode 13, not in
>episode one
as you claimed.

>>15592443
The problem with this is that the attack is so nonsensical and fingers Durandal so directly that you're inclined to feel like it couldn't possibly be that simple. I mean, the guy is clearly established as a smooth operator, so him suddenly launching a raid with mobile suits that (we are told) surely could have only been provided by him is suspicious in itself. Why implicate himself if that's the case? Why not use something more deniable? Does Andy ever actually handwave why it had to be these suits specifically? If I remember all he said was something to the effect of "These are the latest model, only real ZAFT forces could have them".

And even if we accept this as truth, Lacus's spy network has no trouble stealing ZAFT mobile suits so advanced that even ZAFT itself doesn't have them yet, so given that, the assertion that it had to be Durandal ends up with another unintentional hole in it.

>>15592473
Again, the suits were an emergency backup plan; they went in on foot first.

Honestly, I think that Durandal sent them in there explicitly to fail. Given how he feels about people not doing what their genes say they should be doing later in the series I wouldn't be surprised if he was just trying to goad Kira and co. into action.

But when in doubt, remember: this is CE, it can always be that retardedly simple.

>>15592052
There's some irony inherent in the fact that Durandal sought to disprove Rau conclusion that the situation between naturals and coordinators couldn't be fixed, and actually managed to do the impossible and achieve that by uniting them against a common enemy...only to undo it all with his really dumb plan.

>>15592460
I never said anything about episode one.
>>15592473
>The problem with this is that the attack is so nonsensical and fingers Durandal so directly that you're inclined to feel like it couldn't possibly be that simple.
This is true. But you're kind of waiting for some indication that it WASN'T him, kind of a "Say it aint so!" deal And every time Meer shows up you start to realize it's the only logical explanation.

>>15592501
The sloppiness of the operation does indeed seem like it was intended to fail.
But Kira and Lacus do nothing but work against his goals as soon as they are involved. Even from a grand manipulator's perspective, they didn't really do anything that benefited him.

>>15592501
>Again, the suits were an emergency backup plan; they went in on foot first.
Alright, but why even have them in that case? Why not just send more goons? Why not send literally any hardware that wouldn't (supposedly) incriminate the person responsible?

>I think that Durandal sent them in there explicitly to fail
I highly doubt this. The most convincing explanation I've heard for his motive was that he's a control freak and couldn't abide even the possibility of Lacus interfering with his use of her image.

For all his belief in genetics, I doubt it extends to wanting someone to interfere in his own plan for world peace because 'they're fated to by their genes' or some such.

>>15592524
>But you're kind of waiting for some indication that it WASN'T him, kind of a "Say it aint so!" deal And every time Meer shows up you start to realize it's the only logical explanation.
The issue I (and others) have with the whole conceit of his villainy is that at this point (and for most of the series, really) literally every action he takes besides that assassination is (intentionally or unintentionally by the writers) completely fair and reasonable, so it stands out as particularly odd. Even Meer herself; she should be dodgy as fuck, but when Athrun confronts him about her he just points out that the people want a bloodbath and won't listen to him call for restraint, so he'll use a pop singer to keep the peace if he has to, and never mind how dumb it is. And because SEED is badly written this is absolutely reasonable with the context of its insane world.

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>>15592473
>Why not use something more deniable?

There's the GINN WASP and the FEMWS variants. The former is an environment modification much like the desert-type OCHER, the latter is a testbed for the later GOOhN.

I would have guessed that Destiny had to showcase brand new designs to hype them up, but that makes no sense since unlike the ZAKU, the ASH is depicted on the wrong side in its debut, and furthermore there isn't even a 1/144NG of it.

WASP shows up in a throwaway scene in the Heaven's Base attack later on. Sans the Strike Rouge in the OP, most of the MSV appearances in Destiny were in the latter half.

>>15592534
>>15592543
Maybe he was convinced he could bring them around to his way of thinking, or that they'd do it automatically since his way of doing things was OBVIOUSLY the sensible one, to him anyway. He clearly got Athrun wrong, so him batting 0 for 3 makes sense in context.

>Alright, but why even have them in that case? Why not just send more goons? Why not send literally any hardware that wouldn't (supposedly) incriminate the person responsible?
Goons obviously worked so well the first time, so what good would more do? And what incriminating hardware? They all self-destructed.

Actually that last bit is the most incriminating thing; if someone else stole ZAFT tech to false-flag why would they want to dispose of evidence? And Andy already (magically) ID'd the perps as Coordinators. Orb doesn't seem to give a shit about them until after Kira steals the bride, and the EA seems to care even less and would rather stab itself in the dick than rely on Coordies. Durandal, in charge of the PLANTs, having a weird fixation on them, and conveniently rolling out his own Lacus around the same timeframe, is the only one with any amount of means, motive, or opportunity to order the hit.

>>15592594
>Goons obviously worked so well the first time, so what good would more do?
Throwing in more numbers is a legit approach to giving your side more muscle, and goons are less incriminating than hardware.

>Goons obviously worked so well the first time, so what good would more do?
The mobile suits Andy ID'd as being super secret state of the art ZAFT models only real ZAFT could possibly have access too?

>Andy already (magically) ID'd the perps as Coordinators
Actually yeah, that reminds me; wasn't his reason basically "Nah, these guy's can't be naturals, naturals suck too much"? Because that's completely unconvincing. If it was him recognising the tactics from being ZAFT himself or something that would make more sense. Am I misremembering? Or was his explanation really that dumb?

>>15591755
really makes you think

>>15592629
No it doesn't.

>>15592623
>The mobile suits Andy ID'd as being super secret state of the art ZAFT models only real ZAFT could possibly have access too?
Only real ZAFT would give a shit about self-destructing them to hide the evidence, at least.

>>15592623
Naturals do suck compared to Coordinators, though. It took almost all of the first show for Naturals to finally be able to pilot mobile suits, and even once they had a Natural OS they were supposed to be inferior pilots with superior numbers.

In practice, we almost never see the superhuman attributes of Coordinators in action, in part because every major character is a Coordinator, but they're supposed to have crazy reaction times and piloting skills compared to Naturals.

>>15591836
>that Kira even limits himself with to minimize casualties.
Doesn't matter when he still uses it as a tool to push his warped morality on the world. Not killing anyone doesn't make it not a crime.

>>15592647
Sure, but it's a lot less of a crime than wiping cities off the map with your giant Death Star lasers.

>>15591743
Name one mecha that isn't a children's toy.

>>15592641
What about the Extended? They're easily a match for coordinators in a fight, it follows they'd be used on a commando raid. Obviously none of the TSA would think of them, but the audience would.

You can understand why this whole affair is such a bone of contention? We can argue it back and forth because there are so many things about it that invite question, yet we're expected to take the immediate interpretation of Kira's group (who lack a lot of information and are shooting in the dark) as the definite truth, and the issue is never called into question again.

>>15592653
There's also the plot hole that SRW I know, I know brings up, that his refusal to kill is actually what's getting a lot of people needlessly killed.

>>15592636
>Only real ZAFT would give a shit about self-destructing them to hide the evidence
No. My first thought regarding the assassination attampt were the Patrick Zala faction remnants - they were shown to suicide at the Junius Seven, it's not like they care for their lives. I bet they hated Lacus for opposing Zala and causing his downfall.

>>15592670
It's not really a plot hole, just hypocrisy. His shenanigans do a lot of damage, but as far as he's aware he's not killing anyone, so he feels like his hands are clean.

>>15592686
The show never really addresses it though, except with Shinn's backstory but even then he's absolved of that for no good reason. It's a plot hole because it's treated as a nonexistant problem when it's very observably real.

>>15592666

Extends are also a lord less mentally stable than other people in general and tend to have trouble coordinating as a team because they display such strong individual personalities.

>>15592690
I still don't think you can call it a plot hole. A plot hole is something like Kira being both saved from the Strike explosion by a cockpit blast shield yet somehow also thrown clear by the explosion for Lowe to find.

This is just a disconnect between authorial intent and audience interpretation caused by poor writing. Kira's behaviour is internally consistent and makes sense based on what we know of him. That it's not addressed isn't a plot hole. All of this is just semantics though.

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>>15591567

Which was still pic very related at the end of the day. It was not smart or even remotely realistic, it was just a fantasy.

Can I ask you this, /m/? How can Cagalli get a SEED mode if she's a Natural?

>>15592901

Because, while not a coordinator, she still managed to get some of Kira's traits in the womb or some shit like that.

>>15592901

SEED is supposed to be a third genetic trait completely unrelated to the Mwu/Rau/Al/Morgan's Newtype-ism or the man-made modifications given to the Coordinators.

Or, well, it was SUPPOSED to be in this manner. It's some kind of record in and of itself when no other Natural pilot has obtained SEED mode, not even in the sidestories.

>>15593056
Don't forget Kira being a Newtype, too. Cause that was a thing to randomly happen.

>>15593056
>It's some kind of record in and of itself when no other Natural pilot has obtained SEED mode
So it's like, you can get it easily if you are a Coordinator, but for Naturals it's a <1% chance? It still makes it a Coordinator trait.

>>15593056

I love how the thing featured IN THE TITLE OF THE SHOW is barely explained and is just sort of something that happens to show "shit just got real" in a battle.

>>15593071
Kira is everything.

>>15593092
The whole idea of the SEED thing is that nobody knows what it is or how it works, so really it SHOULD be a Natural-only thing since their genes are more random and thus more likely to have mysterious outcomes, whereas Coordinator genes are preplanned and shouldn't have anything unexpected about them.

It works the opposite of that way in practice because who the fuck knows. It's never even established what it actually does besides fuck up your eyes.

Would you have supported Durandal's Destiny Plan if the plan was just to mass produce the Destiny Gundam ?

>>15593092
>you can get it easily if you are a Coordinator

You're facing the wrong direction.

It's supposed to be a third independent trait, doesn't matter what else a person is. It just so happens that no other Natural characters were favored enough by the terrible duo to have it. Not that there were any of them relevant enough to have it matter, for that.

And Tomohiro Chiba doesn't seem to give two hoots on this if at all, he's gone through Morgan, the Socius clones, Carbon Humans, escaped Combat Coordinator Gai Murakumo, and fucking Lowe Guele but he's never touched SEED mode.

>>15591567

IIRC didn't the Destiny Plan also call for the genocide of Naturals, either immediately after the war or by forcing them all to breed Coordinators?

>>15593279
The whole original point of Coordinators was that they were supposed to be created once, then breed with Naturals to spread their superior traits out into the populace at large while avoiding the infertility issues that came from what is essentially inbreeding when two Coordinators fuck. That's why there were a bunch of Natural-Coordinator pairings in SEED.

Destiny fucked all that up in favor of saying everyone should stay with their own kind, of course.

>>15593293

> what is essentially inbreeding when two Coordinators fuck.

Unless there's only 6 coordinatorsor or something that shouldn't be an issue at all.

>>15593304
All of them have the same genes for determining strength, speed, immune systems, all of that. The only different traits are cosmetic ones. Coordinators are a lot closer to one another genetically than they appear.

>>15592673

The biggest reason it can't be them is because they mention their mission explicilty is to secretly kill Lacus and leave no trace she was ever there at the scene, which is something that would only make sense to someone trying to cover up Meer.

Anyone else, be it Logos, or Zala's group while they might want Lacus dead, would also jump at the chance to prove Durandal is lying to the world and using "Lacus" to push his agenda.

>>15593448

I'm not up on my genetics, but don't all humans have much the same genes with the difference being in alleles (or gene variation as I understand it) rather than entirely different genes? I thought the genes and alleles for muscle growth, bones etc. were all basically the same too, with the difference mostly being either in cosmetic genes (eye color, skin pigmentation etc) and in diseases, not things that determine base speed, strength, immunity etc.

From what little I know if coordination could eliminate disease carrying genes then it wouldn't really matter too much if there was inbreeding of similar genetic types, since inbreeding is so taboo specifically because it tends to increase the chances of inheriting dysfunctional or broken genes and diseases.

Obviously my knowledge on this is passing at best, but I'm just curious how good their background fluff is regarding accounting for this stuff more than anything.

>>15593893
It's hard to view SEED from a scientific lens just because what Coordinators are described as is impossible, even assuming we had perfect gene manipulation. You can only alter so much, because some things are intrinsically tied to our development in the womb, or resistance to disease, or traits that define us as human. You change much about skeletal strength, you may change how their bone shape entirely.

>>15593893

This is coming from a show that claims all nuclear reactions can be magically cancelled. Don't expect their understanding of genetics to be any better.

>>15592711
>yet also thrown clear
That didn't happen.

>>15593951
That's the whole point of Kira's "Ultimate Coordinator" thing. Gene manipulation doesn't go exactly the way you want unless you use an artificial womb.

>>15594014
You misunderstand, because gene manipulation STILL wouldn't work that way. The problem is the assumption that a gene does one thing, and changing it will only affect the one thing.

>>15594011
You seem to be right, though I can't find a panel to corroborate it. I must have been thinking of how Lowe rescued him and then just dumped him there on the ground for reverend shifty to find. What I probably meant to invoke was how he survived the explosion due to the handwaved blast shield sealing the cockpit, yet said cockpit being melted all to shit as a result.

>>15591567
The only redeeming quality about Destiny (besides the Saviour) is the interesting philosophical argument about the Destiny Plan. Essentially, the Destiny Plan is perfect; it would form the basis of the ideal society. The problem is that whoever, or whatever, controls the process would be far too easily corruptible due to holding absolute power. A person would just make all humans born after himself inferior; make all females attracted to him; make everyone his slaves, eventually. Even if he was exceedingly virtuous, if he did anything like this even once - appealing to his own bias - he has betrayed the concept of the plan.
Corollary to this, leaving the duty to a computer could potentially be even worse, as said computer may achieve sentience if it doesn't already have it and may deem it appropriate to simply end human life. Essentially, the Destiny Plan necessitates a "God" of perfect virtue in order to work. It's too good a plan to exist in our flawed world.

>>15591675
You are also genetically programmed to enjoy the thing you are good at above all else.

Understand yet?

>>15594424
>the Destiny Plan is perfect; it would form the basis of the ideal society. The problem is that whoever, or whatever, controls the process would be far too easily corruptible due to holding absolute power.
Sounds a lot like communism.

>>15594444
Nice quads.

Well...listen, I'm no political expert. I'm talking about extremely long term. It would take 100 years for the world's systems to even out, but eventually it would become Utopianism.

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>>15594353
It's all good. I've seen a few people saying that lately.

>>15594424
>Essentially, the Destiny Plan is perfect
It's micro-managed totalitarian rule enacted by a pathological liar. It *sounds* perfect because it's explained by the aforementioned pathological liar. You're supposed to see it as an evil manipulator tempting you with something that's clearly too good to actually be true. It will never cease to amaze me that there are people on /m/ who are so determined to reject everything about Kira and the Clyne Faction that they swallow Gil's "ALL YOUR CHOICE ARE BELONG TO US" plan hook, line, and sinker.

>>15594424
No, it isn't.
There are a lot of jobs that need to be done that "having good genes for" doesn't really work on. Who the hell are going to be the actors? Who ends up having to work in fast food? Not everyone gets to be the president, are the genes going to line up who gets to be president?
It's poorly defined, and doesn't even. What if I'm given the role becoming a politician, and while I'm growing up, I get into football, and I want to do that instead. What, are the secret police going to show up and break my legs for getting interested into sports?
What if someone gets a job they don't want? Is the answer "Well, fuck you, too bad?" How is it even enforced? Are these just strong suggestions? Or the insane idea that every human on the planet is going to follow a script written up by a computer. The amount of control you'd need for this is insane, and we've seen people throw tea into the ocean for less. People would sooner take a blast of the GENESIS than do this.


The problem with the Destiny plan is that it's obviously some crap they written up at the last minute so the series could force a final confrontation between ZAFT and Orb. Consider the fact that the only reason the Lacus and Gang find out about it is because they literal find the notes for it in an burned abandoned lab in where everything but the book happens to be burned (What's that on the floor? Is that the script?)

It doesn't even mention on how Naturals go into it, or why anyone on ZAFT even thinks it's a good idea (of course, the good ol' old cast knows when to call it quits). Everyone just goes along with it until the base gets blown up, and everyone acts like they woke up from being hypnotized.

>>15592690
>except with Shinn's backstory but even then he's absolved of that for no good reason.
Shinn's family are absolutely retarded and responsible for their own situation. Let's just skip over the fact that they're running late for an evacuation and consider the direction they're running:
>Shinn's sister drops phone
>phone tumbles down hill
>after blast, Shinn tumbles further down hill
>suddenly at the fucking dock
The evacuation ships were straight downhill, but Shinn's family was running alongside it instead of going straight down the hill. Then there's the fact that even before the sister drops the phone, they all just stop and gawk at the battle for a whole minute before resuming running alongside their destination instead of toward it. Then when the phone tumbles *in the direction of the evacuation ships* they all stand around while Shinn goes *in the direction of the evacuation ships* down the hill to get it. If the whole damn family had gone as a group *in the direction of the evacuation ships* they would have all survived the same as Shinn did.

Also it must be pointed out that there is no clear indication that the shot that killed Shinn's family came from Freedom. You see Freedom and Calamity fighting shortly before the blast happens, but they're not the only people involved in that battle. There's no evidence that Kira fired that shot, and if it was Calamity there's even less reason to blame Kira instead of Calamity's pilot.

If you're going to blame anyone, blame Shinn's parents for not running straight toward the fucking ships.

>>15593171
>The whole idea of the SEED thing is that nobody knows what it is or how it works
That wasn't intentional.
The writer who created the concept for the show passed it off to the series writer who actually wrote the plot. Kira was supposed to be more like an X-Rounder but the series writer decided to make him the ULTIMATE COORDINATOR instead but still threw in the "Oh, and he's also the SEED whateveritwas too" even though SEED Factor was all but totally dropped from the plot. It ended up being nothing other than a visual "SHIT JUST GOT REAL" cue, a couple of cryptic references by the blind monk and Cagalli's father, and a single expository line in a recap episode narrated by a tertiary character.

>>15594424

The Destiny Plan is one of the silliest bits of policy I've ever seen in media. Even 2 seconds thought will shine a light on numerous issues that make it impractical. I cannot honestly imagine why someone would think it perfect unless they were the one at the top controlling everything. I would describe it not as too good a plan for a flawed world, but too flawed a plan for even a bad world.

Putting aside the objections >>15594556 raises there's the issue of what happens when you guarantee someone for a job they haven't trained for or given any time too as of yet. If you tell a kid that he's guaranteed to be a doctor because it's in his genes, then what incentive has he to train for the profession since he's guaranteed the job anyways? Do you keep making him take the tests until he passes? What if he just sits on his ass and never studies? Is he not allowed get another job until he passes, but cannot be a doctor till he passes? Who pays his way until he actually passes? What incentive does he have to keep up with new information and techniques if he does pass but is guaranteed the position for life?

What about pay and job stress? Being a doctor is hard work with a lot of stress involved given the long hours, responsibility and amount of information you have to keep up with. The fact it has relatively high pay is one of the compensations for the job, where being a garbage man for instance is mostly stressful because of the lack of pay. If you guarantee everyone a job based on genetics but allow no social mobility then all the people in low paying jobs suddenly get a lot more antsy because they're mostly working them to pay bills and hoping or studying for better. Take that possibility for more away and you're guaranteed either social apathy when it comes to protecting your society and/or revolution, because people cannot advance.

>>15594573

And that ignores the people in fairly high skill but low paying jobs, like those doing line work manufacturing electronics and mechanical material. If you're guaranteeing them a job, but only that job and the work is low paying then they will have no reason to do a good job. Most communist countries run in to the same issue, where all the manufactured goods tend to be shoddy and fail quickly and repeatedly. Cars with brakes that don't work all that well, planes with failing engines, computers that overheat easily and so on. People guaranteed a job with shit pay have no reason to do quality work and the goods they turn out reflect that.

On the other hand you could give everyone equal pay, which is both prohibitively expensive and will probably piss off the people in higher education/risk jobs, since they're doing a lot more work and taking a lot more stress for no real benefit. Which will probably cause them to conspire against your new order. Either way you're guaranteed to piss off one group of people and end up with an unhappy and unproductive society that will turn on you at some point because some part of it think things could be better with a change of leadership.

>>15594435

No, because being genetically predisposed to happiness with particular jobs makes no sense. Do you think your genes distinguish between being an American football player and a rugby player for instance? Between being a poet and a singer? Or an actor and a politician? Your genes might predispose you to be better at utilizing certain skills, but how where you gain happiness using those skills is probably due to social factors and psychological reasons, not genetic ones.

>>15597234

Hey man, in a world where humanity has discovered how to magically cancel nuclear reactions I would expect them to have AT LEAST mapped out genetics enough to figure out what your best AND happiest career choice is.

>>15597278
Progress can happen in weird directions, anon.

>>15591596
>we'd already seen that the Destiny Plan was really motivated by his butthurt over not being allowed to fuck Talia because they weren't fertile.
Not exactly. The Destiny Plan would mean that he and Talia would never have to together in the first place, if the plan existed during his time.

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>>15592635
You made my day.

>>15597346
But both of them had sex in like episode 2 or 3, on Minerva. Was adopting a kid really such a big problem of them (considering that there must have been plenty of war orphans around)?

>>15597346
>>15597353

If the PLANTs were already operating with laws that say who you can and can't be due to infertility with then I don't see how the Destiny Plan is that big of a change.

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>>15592635

>>15597587

It wasn't a law. They simply have a service that can match you to someone you can definitely have a child with, and Talia, who really wanted a kid, ditched Durandal for the guy they matched her with.

Durandal, having really loved Talia, was devastated and came to the conclusion that he'd wished he'd never got involved with Talia and knew they wouldn't work out from the start, because now he wanted something he could never have thanks to genetic incompatibilty.

Which is what inspired the Destiny Plan.

Can we just agree that stargazer was the best thing to come out of the universe, it showed how much true potential it had...

>>15598090
Eh? Why didn't she use a semen bank? It's not that a romantic relationship with her partner is important for her.

>>15594564
I could have sworn that, in the pre-remaster version of Seed, they had the civilians evacuated DAYS before the OMNI fleet made it to Orb. They had to retcon the battle (and make Orb even less competent at tending to its citizens) for Shinn's backstory to even be possible.

>>15598622
It's possible they could have been held up.

>>15598290
No? The fuck are you smoking?

>>15591567
>Communism: The plan
Sure Durandal, make sure you assassinate Lacus right this time

>>15598845

How is the Destiny Plan when theres's nothing about the community owning the state and all of it's assets within it's policies? It's a caste system disguised as a meritocracy, not communism.

>>15594564
In the initial version of the flashback, Freedom was firing from the air while Calamity was on land.

They changed that sequence a couple of times later though, possibly since the whole "Freedom possibly killed Shinn's family!" bit was completely dropped later and it never came up as one of Shinn's reasons to go after Kira.

>>15598896

They change it every time the flashback is shown actually. Sometimes it's both. Sometimes it's just Calamity and sometimes it's just a missle strike.

And this continued into Remaster.

I think they're trying to show that whoever fired the shot isn't important (It's not like Shinn could see it anyway having been blown down the cliff) just that fact that there was a battle there.

>>15598622

They did. However it's also said that Shinn's family were practically the last ones out, because they seeming didn't believe Orb would get into a war since they bought into the peaceful nation BS that much.

That's on them, not Orb, but Shinn has a notable double standard anyway.

>>15598090
Did Talia even ever have any kids

>>15598986

Yep. She had one that she ignored all show, and finally told Murrue to look after before dying at the end.

>>15599006
>before dying
You mean "before killing herself". Such a great mother.

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>>15591567
Durandal only gets hot bitches

What genes would make you suited to run an orphanage? Are there different genes to work in mcdonalds and Wendy's or there is free market once it's decided you're a born fry cook?

>>15597212
>>15597216

Anyone who can't see this as something like XCOM2 Advent controlled Earth doesn't realize this is what the Plan is all about: Long term genocide of Naturals.

naturals can't keep up with Coordinators at all and the only "threat" aka Logos backed Alliance was completely annihilated. The plan is to force Naturals to breed with Coordinators to solve their fertility issue or "donate" their sperm, eggs and babies to become coordinators.

>>15592413
The orphanage was run by Lacus Clyne and Kira Yamato. That is how it was sympathetic.

>>15599496
I was reading that other thread about Lacus earlier and it occurred to me: it wasn't Durandal that sent the assassins, it was Lacus. She needed an impetus to get Kira back into the war.

>>15599510

She didn't need one. If she wanted him back in the war all she had to do was say so. He's compliant enough to her that he wouldn't even question it.

>>15599515

That and the problem with the idea that Lacus is pulling the strings to become the overlord, is that she gets the chance to become the overlord after Seed, and passes it up to run an orphanage.

She passes up too many chances to run things before doing so only because all the other people wanting to run things want her dead because she might oppose them, to actually want to do it.

I love how his big window and spinning chair are blatant callbacks to the Emperor.

>>15598896
That's bullshit.
Both are in the air, then there's a scene with Shinn's family, then a blast whose source is entirely off-camera. There is absolutely no indication of where that shot came from in ANY version of that flashback in TV/DVD version. I've never bothered watching the remaster, but considering the bullshit with Nicol's death I highly doubt they would have made Kira look bad by making him directly responsible for their deaths.

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>>15600179
In the original episode 1 airing, there was an extra cut to Calamity and Freedom right before the explosion, and Calamity was on the ground there, while Freedom was flying.

It's this cut that always gets modified in later versions of the scene.

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>>15600189
you got a webm to go with that filename?
because i'm 100% sure that my mp4 of episode 1 does not have that cut, and I don't have the remaster version.
Are you going to pull some "it was only in the tv broadcast so I don't have a way to prove it" argument? Because I'm not going to buy that.

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>>15600204

The Remaster doesn't cut that though. In fact it actually updates it with the new Freedom full burst stock footage.

So I don't think that was intentional retconing. It could just be they never even realized it make it look like Kira killed them from the start.

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>>15600301
No surprise there.

>>15600356

Nicol Shot First