Macross thread Is it possible that the next Macross TV series

>>15542518
the franchise will always suck as long as Kawamori has power over it

>>15542520
Kawamori is honestly more of an ideaman.

He can come up with rather interesting if not unique concepts, just gotta let someone else good to execute the ideas and do the story well.

He's still up there when it comes to VF designs though.

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>>15542520
lol no

>>15542518
I see no way in which the next series could possibly be worse than Delta unless they quadrupled down on the pandering and made the show little more than a promo for an idol harem eroge. Unfortunately, given the direction of the series, that seems rather likely.

>>15542518
I thought it couldn't get worst than Frontier. And Delta happened. So as bad as it is, it can be worst,

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>>15542518
From the viewpoint of someone who isn't an autistic cunt who yells "DED" when idols or boobs are seen in an idol/mecha anime, Delta wasn't legitimately bad to begin with. It just got super fucking boring, tedious, and pointless that one could argue that's worse than being bad. It had the right idea and a good set up but it just stopped. To answer your question, yes, it can be a lot worse. So we must be cautious when approaching Macross 35. But I have some hope that Delta was just a cheap way of making some quick cash to make the 35th anniversary TV show as grand and epic as Frontier.

>>15542518
How could it get any worse than delta?

>>15542885

The next show is set 20 years after Delta and is about an idol training school on a planet currently in the projected path of a warzone's advance who has to loan in-training idols out to concerts to keep morale (and their budget) up. The war peters out before they reach the planet, and the series climax is just the school's summer festival concert.

But that's not what's bad about it. What's bad is that the NUNS is still using VF-171s.

Am I alone in thinking that Frontier was pretty boring?

Delta was good while Hayate was training and the Elysion did things and the idol stuff stayed in 'rocket skirts and drones and lesbians' territory, and then nosedived because they had no idea where to go with it.

Frontier had Klan Klang and the Macross Quarter and maybe the Monster, and that was basically it the whole way through.

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>>15542920
Holy fucking shit, THIS! It's been 8 fucking years since Frontier and they can't make at least ONE new grunt design? Gundam has a nice assortment of grunt designs, why can't Macross? Give me my Kfir VF!

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I warmed up to Frontier. The soundtrack elevated the material, and the characters were genuinely likable. The mecha design was the nadir of the series, though.

>>15542957
>white VF-25
I wonder what kind of color pallete the next hero VF will be. I would say red since it's best color but it's been done before.

>>15542953

The problem with their grunt designs isn't not having a new design; it's that since Frontier, there has been a "grunt" VF-##A model that no named character ever uses and it's also not the mass-production punchbag of the show.

It may read like I'm joking, but the VF-171s in Frontier probably had a larger volume of screentime and action than the VF-25A. I routinely forget that the base Messiah even exists until I'm reminded of it. I haven't gotten to the end of Delta yet but as of Trinket Feint Distraction Perk, the same thing seems to be playing out with the VF-171 and the VF-31A.

>>15542991
I thought Alto flew a VF-171 for a few episodes.

>>15542605
I think the actual worst part of delta was not the idols, but all the time spent trying to make the windies seem sympathetic. Every scene with them was boring as hell and dragged on for too long

>>15542520
I mean the only good Macross installment was the original and that wasn't even directed or written by him, so that has to say something.

>>15543012

Even if you took that out, you'd still get more VF-171 screentime than the brown VF-25A that the SMS squadrons use. Back then it was understandably new, so SMS was evaluating mass-adoption practices for the Frontier fleet.

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How much you wanna bet the next pilot will also be part on a PMC?

>>15543029

All but guaranteed.

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>>15542966
I don't think there's been a green MC VF yet.
Or better yet, how about a VF with an actual camo paint job?

>>15543044

Why would they bother with camouflage paint jobs when detection is done via fold waves, not radar or cameras? Adding it would have no effect.

>>15542518
There should be a final bottom cosmic one where it's Basara's guitar

>>15542518
Delta was the equivalent to Dee hits rock bottom, so I don't think so.

>>15542518
What is Frontier?

>>15543560

A better show.

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>>15542518
>still using the Brain meme 2 months too late

The summerfags are stirring.

>>15543595

> Still spouting the summer meme despite the fact it makes no sense and Moot said there's no factual basis for it years ago.

>>15542605
I wish the pandering was actually the problem with Delta. It didn't even do that right

>idol harem
That would be pretty bad

>>15543842
Oh, I know, the problem was that fucking nothing happened for most of the second half

This problem would be magnified tenfold in my hypothetical, though

>>15542605
Anything would be better than shoehorning a triangle at this stage.

>>15543016
This too. Humanoid antagonists that are almost no different from regular humans were a mistake.

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>>15543872
But Zents are humanoid antagonists that are almost no different from humans and they're still the best antagonists in all of Macross. Plus they spawned this lovely beauty.

>>15543892
I mean, at least Zents have pointy ears, some sort of particularly exotic skin color, or that odd physiology from DYRL. All the Windies got is prehensile hair that brings to mind the Emarn in Orguss.

>>15543892
Macross doesn't really have good antagonists at all. The only ones that had potential to be good were the anti-unification forces in Zero, but Kawamori decided muh floating rocks and muh birdman were more important

>>15543939
The Zents were great antagonists. I don't know what you're talking about.

We saw the war from their perspective, we learned about them as characters and they were pretty damn funny to boot

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>>15543917
Come to think of it, other protoculture races had pointy ears. I wonder why windies were the exception?
>>15543939
No fuck you. The zents were threatening villains that you could still feel some sympathy for despite their violent nature. Each zent character had their own personality and viewpoint which made them more interesting than a couple factions who just hate the government.

>>15542518

Short answer; Yes.

>>15543945
Every time Britai got all DECULTURE over something completely tame in SDF I lost my shit laughing, it's a great bit.

>>15543945
The problem with them lies in their being easily overcome by having Minmay sing at them once. It felt too cheap to have them lay down their arms and switch sides after having just a taste of Earth culture. The show would have been better if they hadn't written themselves into a corner and basically required this to happen by making the Zentraedi far too powerful otherwise

>>15543872
That's not really the problem with Windies, though, is it? It's a lot more to do with motivation and characterization.

Most of the time, Macross lends its antagonists sympathy because they either physically have to do what they're doing (the Protodevlin, in the Frontier endgame the Vajra) or they don't know any better (the Zentraedi, the Vajra most of the time). This allows the heroes to either find a way to fix the problem or educate the antagonists on a better way of doing things. Windemere just wants to take over the galaxy because they're a bunch of assholes, and the excuse they give ends up being way too small potatoes for them to go so ridiculously far in their revenge. It especially doesn't help that they use such underhanded methods like Var Syndrome, which drains a lot of sympathy that they might have otherwise had because that shit would be a war crime.

>>15542520

Its not 100% his fault the JP audience and the sponsors want it so he has to give it to them. Anime in general has been shit since for a LONG time.

>>15543963
Just a taste of Earth culture is all they needed because, you know, they literally have not experienced anything like it since their creation. Culture shock, moron.

>>15543917

> prehensile hair

I thought Ranka was the one with prehensile hair (well...kinda) and the Windermereans were just physically stronger humans?
>>15543963

> The problem with them lies in their being easily overcome by having Minmay sing at them once.

Literally never happened. Zentradi were shocked for a second or two when they heard Minmay for the first time, and found it mysterious enough that they sent spies to investigate what she was doing but it took even Britai's fleet a dozen episodes and multiple battles to decide they wanted peace, something they wanted because they liked culture as a whole and saw humans had technology and ideas they didn't despite their apparently low tech level - not just because of Minmay's singing. Even in the final battle against Boddole Zer's fleet all her singing did was shock his fleet in to a few seconds stupor and allow the humans and allied Zentradi who'd experienced it before a small gap to exploit given their smaller fleet.

> if they hadn't written themselves into a corner and basically required this to happen by making the Zentradi far too power otherwise

Saying they wrote themselves in to a corner implies they didn't plan the Zentradi out as much more powerful deliberately, which is almost certainly wrong. Kawamori wanted a group that couldn't just be martially overpowered, but which would require humanity to rely on more than brute strength. The Zentradi were deliberately made much more numerous and technologically advanced in most ways.

>>15544046
I'm sorry, but that's not a good enough explanation to me as to why they would near immediately give up everything they had ever been working to accomplish.

>>15543977
Instead of wasting their time on shit like uta wa heiki, they could have had the good guys find a way to show the windies their hypocrisy. Fucking broadcast footage of families suffering from Var syndrome and force windy civies to watch that shit. It's not that hard considering they broadcasted idol music to the galactic network.

>>15544054
Accomplish what? The zents aren't fighting for a specific goal or cause, they fight because it's all they know.

>>15544052
>Literally never happened.
Depends on what fiction you're looking at. IIRC this is exactly what happens in DYRL and one of the Macross 7 OVAs. Either way, I do remember many of them turning near instantly when being shown human artifacts by other Zentraedi.

>>15544060
Conquering the universe, apparently. Either way, it's clear that their instinct is to fight and them shifting to behavior that goes against their instincts happens a little too quickly for it not to feel like a copout

There's another mecha series that has a comparable conflict: Fafner. The changes that happen to the Festum occur at a much more natural pace ironically despite them being fundamentally far more alien than the Zentraedi

>>15544071
When did the zents show interest in conquering the universe? Even now they don't do that because there's still thousands of them out their that don't know humans exist. They're more about finding a new opponent rather than ruling the galaxy.

>>15544071

Except they're not fighting to conquer the universe. They fight because that's what they were bred to do, and what they've always done. Nothing more. Even then the people who bred them to fight on their behalf are dead and gone with half a million years and the Zentradi have basically just been doing a paperclip scenario since then. They're not even particularly attached to conflict, it's just literally all any of them have ever known. And one of the reasons it's all they know is because it's a set rule that if any Zentradi fleet comes across a "culture" they're to turn around and leave. Something almost certainly put in place by the Protoculture both as a means to protect themselves, and because they probably knew the Zentradi would be attracted to one since they have essentially none themselves. The only reason Britai didn't do so was because humans used reaction technology and showed they could actually fix technology, something Zentradi were unable to do and he wanted to know how. The Protoculture also split Zentradi in to male/female fleets with a taboo on intermixing to help limit the spread of culture and keep their fighting force focused only on fighting.

And even then the second half of the show is a proof that not all Zentradi can accept culture so easily. The conflict after episode 28 is mainly in Kamjin and his subordinates not being able to accept a life of peace and culture (despite actually adopting culture themselves, like kissing and watching movies) and not being able to leave war behind.

>>15544096
I think what bugs me the most about it is that it all happens within the space of one generation. It'd make more sense if the Zentraedi weren't so humanlike

>>15544110

It makes sense precisely because they're so humanlike. Most people if they had spent decades fighting for no real reason and no actual cause with nothing to look forward to besides fighting and nothing to do beyond fighting would be absolutely overcome at the idea the could do something besides fight. It's why humans cannot be in a battlefield for more than a few months at a time: because psychological studies have proved anymore and the chances of PTSD or some kind of incident shoot up dramatically and even trained soldiers need some actual downtime where they're not soldiers to normalize and enjoy life. And that's including people fighting for an actual cause with a possible end point in mind.

>>15542518
>Is it possible that the next Macross TV series could somehow be worse than Delta?

Lets put it this way : as long as Kawamori is at the helm you can kiss goodbye to a good Macross. Keep him as mech designer but for Pete's sake hire someone else to write the story and characters and we night get a non stupid enjoyable Macross again.

>>15543892
>Plus they spawned this lovely beauty.

You have shit taste. Mirage ain't it. Even fucking Mylene had more charm and sex appeal than this stupid elf who can't fly good, is no ace and can't win the dick in the end.

>>15544120
No, it doesn't make sense because human cultures take several generations to change if not centuries. The idea that the Zentraedi do not have a culture is a bit of a misapplication of the term. What they don't have is arts and entertainment. However, they do have a set of values and ideas about how their society is governed, and that is a part of culture. And culture is unfortunately not a zero sum game. The best ideas do not rise to the top and are not adopted by everyone internationally or else all cultures would be the same. People as a whole tend to cling to what they know.

And shit, after millennia in isolation and divergent evolution, the Zentraedi should realistically enjoy fighting if they do it above all else. But none of this is true because it's meant to be a dumb robot TV series and not the thoughtful exploration of what should happen between these two races.

>>15544150
>Mylene
Oh hi, shit taste-kun. Did you forget Mylene was also a mediocre pilot and couldn't get the dick in the end either?

>>15544213

> human cultures take several generations to change if not centuries

They do if it's a case of one converging or competing cultures, but that's explicitly not what happened in SDF. Instead it's one group with no culture versus one group that has one.

> The idea that the Zentradi do not have a culture is a bit of a misapplication of the term

The word culture can refer only to the artistic expressions of a society, as well as to broader social beliefs and ideas.

> People as a whole tend to cling to what they know

And they also tend to embrace the unknown, hence the love of exploration and learning. They especially tend to gravitate to the unknown if it fills a niche that was previously void.

> the Zentradi should realistically enjoy fighting

Some of they, like Kamjin and his subordinates do. Hence why they couldn't acclimate to life on Earth after a peaceful resolution and wanted a life of war once more.

>>15544249
>as well as to broader social beliefs and ideas.
And this is what the Zentraedi have. The idea that society should be structured as a military hierarchy, the idea that fighting is the most valuable activity a person can do with his life, the idea that the sexes should be segregated, the idea of the rejection of arts and anti-intellectualism in general, could these not all be called aspects of culture?

>if it fills a niche that was previously void.
Well I'd argue that a society that has spent millions of years knowing nothing but warfare wouldn't even feel any kind of void anymore. They'd have evolved to the point where any semblance of humanity in them would be mostly gone, sorta like the antagonists in Detonator Orgun, whatever their names were.

Anyway back to the original point, I will say that it'd probably take something like a manga structured like FSS to accurately depict the transformation of the Zentraedi as I'm saying they ought to be. They work for what SDF wanted to do, but I'm just thinking there's still a lot of potential in the concept that went untapped.

>>15544295

> And this is what the Zentradi have

I didn't say otherwise, I said that culture can also refer solely to arts and entertainment. Which the Zentradi don't have. They haven't personally and consciously rejected arts and intellectualism, they just have never experienced it full stop.

> I'd argue

And you are only making an assumption. One that Macross obviously doesn't agree with.

> they'd have evolved

They do not evolve, because they do not breed as Protoculture weapons. They are spat out of a test tube from a template established more than half a million years ago.

> I'm saying they ought to be

And plenty of people disagree on what they ought to be. If you want them to be something else then find something else or write it yourself; there's no point blaming SDF Macross for not being what you think it should be.

>>15544322
> They are spat out of a test tube from a template established more than half a million years ago.
This is not mutually exclusive with evolution; if they are meant to be fighters than one would think that the Protoculture would have directed them to continue modifying the template to select for the most powerful warriors. And it does appear that there is some modification going on due to there existing biodiversity among the Zentradi, not to mention the very existence of the Meltrandi.

>And plenty of people
You can't possibly source that.
Anyway, I'm just following implications created by the series itself. Obviously there's some disconnect between the implications and what we actually ended up with, and that's where I take issue.

>>15542551
>He's still up there when it comes to VF designs though.

Macross designs peaked with Plus imo.

>>15544389

> one would think the Protoculture would have directed them to continue modifying the template to select for the most powerful warriors

The Protoculture didn't even trust them enough to direct them or allow them to fix broken windows, what makes you think the Protoculture would give them ability to modify their own genes? And the existence of Meldtradi in no way infers ongoing modification, since all it shows is sexual diversity was desired at some point in the past.

> You can't possibly source that

SDF was a popular show, ergo the people that watched it liked it on some level ergo they were willing to forgive it any perceived sins and view it kindly despite anything they didn't like about it.

> there's some disconnect between the implications and what we actually ended up with, and that's where I take issue

I'm pretty sure the show actually addressed every single point you've brought up in some manner. Hence why I've been able to argue using nothing but the show. You don't take issue because of a disconnect present in the show, you take issue because it doesn't fit your personal view of what the show should do as far as I can see. Which is fine really, but it's not a problem with the show.

>>15544213
>No, it doesn't make sense because human cultures take several generations to change if not centuries

Take the Zentraedi + protoculture as a rough metaphor for the Black Ships arriving in Japan. The situation differs a lot, and it wasn't as fast or as smooth as in Macross, but that's an example of how a country can change pretty damn quickly as a result of a different culture with new technology arriving on its doorstep.

Its hard to think of another example of unknown cultures meeting like that. Maybe the discovery of the Americas, but the cultures involved there hardly adapted to each other.

>>15544418
>what makes you think the Protoculture would give them ability to modify their own genes?
The evidence that they've been doing so? If their sole purpose were to be the strongest warriors to fight the Protoculture's battles, then there would be no need for them to be anything but the same set of the strongest genes, which would result in them all looking identical (as well as mostly behaving identically, much of personality is genetic). The existence of the Meltrandi also feeds into this. There is no reason that the physically weaker sex should even exist in a race of test tube warriors meant only to fight, and yet they do. Why would any of this be the case if the Zentradi weren't experimenting with their gene pools? Perhaps this was something they were granted knowledge of.

>I'm pretty sure the show actually addressed every single point you've brought up in some manner
Perhaps, but many of the explanations lack depth and are mostly brushed aside by the sequel series. Bring up Kamjin and his tiny band of raiders all you want, but when we're talking about the adoption of a lifestyle that goes against ingrained instinct by a race that numbers several billion, it seems absurd that that's all the resistance to change that there is. I mean, even if they do accept that it might be nice to have arts and culture, what's stopping them from coming up with their own culture while they continue merrily destroying everything because that's what they're meant to do?

>>15544475

> which would result in them all looking identical (as well as mostly behaving identically, much of personality is genetic)

That's not how clones work. Environment plays a factor in both how a person looks and acts, even down to tiny things like how often they eat and how much they eat when they do. I've also no idea where you're getting the idea much of personality is genetic, since most science these days posits personality as being fairly majorly driven by environmental factors not genetic ones. Hence why twins raised in the same household can turn out radically different mentally and emotionally despite having almost the same stimuli and being monozygotic.

> There is no reason that the physically weaker sex should even exist in a race of test tube warriors meant only to fight

When almost all of that fighting is done on carriers and in machines rather than in person the weaker sex is a pointless distinction. There need be no further reason than they had to have females originally to achieve the necessary genetic diversity to create their slave warriors and decided to use them since they existed. Something that can also explain why not all Zentradi look alike (not that genetic cloning creates physically identical clones in the first place).

> Bring up Kamjin and his tiny band of raiders all you want, but when we're talking about the adoption of a lifestyle that goes against ingrained instincts

Again, they don't fight because of instinct, they fight because that's what they've been told they should do all their life and no-one else existed to say otherwise.

> by a race that numbers several billion

There might be several billion Zentradi, but there were perhaps a few thousand on Earth after episode 27. Macross Plus also posits not all Zentradi and Zentradi descendants can acclimate to that lifestyle, as does Frontier.

> what's stopping them coming up with their own culture

What's dictating that they should? Besides you I mean.

>>15544398
>implying
Lucifer and Durandal are great, though.

>>15544559
>since most science these days posits personality as being fairly majorly driven by environmental factors not genetic ones
Both of us are wrong. Both play a factor and how much of a factor they play apparently varies by the person (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058678/). Either way, one would think the Protoculture would select for the more aggressive one.

>When almost all of that fighting is done on carriers and in machines
Do we even know this to be the case? Obviously, it is the case in regards to fighting human armies in space, but we have no way of knowing if that's SOP. We do see the rebel bands fight on foot in the final arc and in that one video game

>not that genetic cloning creates physically identical clones in the first place).
In any event, it shouldn't cause some of them to have giant brains while others don't.

>Again, they don't fight because of instinct
It seems inconsistent on this point. As we've brought up, some of them feel compelled to continue fighting while others do not.

>but there were perhaps a few thousand on Earth after episode 27.
Regardless, after that point, there were never enough hostile Zentradi to be a threat to humanity.

>What's dictating that they should?
Path of least resistance. Instead of attempting some weird integration into human society with massive and potentially catastrophic social and political consequences for themselves, they could just assign some of the weaker and/or more dissatisfied among them to make music or something and continue business as usual otherwise, upsetting no one. Of course, this kills humanity and we can't have that be the ending of the TV show

>>15544597

> Either way, one would think the Protoculture would select for the more aggressive one

Selecting purely for aggression would probably leave them rather handicapped in operating the advanced technology they were paired with, like starships and mechs. A certain amount of stability and mental aptitude is needed even if only operating them, not creating or fixing them.

> Do we even know it's the case

It certainly seems to be the standard for Zentradi given that facing humans on foot was an exception facilitated by co-existence (itself not the norm), the idea of using spies is new to them and Britai tries to use footage of Zentradi wiping out a planet from space to cow Hikaru, Misa and Kakizaki. Their tactics are focused on ship to ship and mech to mech warfare as well. And meeting a foe on the battlefield in person would risk opening them to culture, so it seems unlikely it was the norm if humans were the first culture they came across.

> it shouldn't cause some of them to have giant brains

You seem to be assuming there's literally one clone template that every single Zentradi is based on, as opposed to dozens of them with some diversity to suit different roles like Fleet captains, fleet librarians (or whatever title Exedol had), helmsman, pilot and so on.

> some of them feel compelled to continue fighting while others do not

Which doesn't have to be genetically engineered instinct, since inability to change a lifestyle can be environmental as well as genetic.

> Regardless, after that point, there were never enough hostile Zentradi to be a threat to humanity

The majority of the UNs/NUNs fleets are unwilling or unable to help in Frontier, Delta etc. despite universe threatening enemies because they're busy fighting Zentradi.

> Path of least resistance

The path of least resistance could be argued to be adopting an existing one, not creating your own one. It all depends on how you frame it.

>>15544577
Ugly ass shit.

>>15543132
It looks cool.

>>15544398
But what about the Sv.51 or VF-0D

>>15544645
>busy fighting zentradi
Not exactly.

They can't and will not help because of the distance.
Frontier was near the galactic core, the closest fleet that will take a reasonable amount of time to get there to help was Galaxy, and Galaxy is dead.
In the case of Delta its much worse, they are at the edge of the galaxy.
By the time any reinforcements from the other fleets reached, the battle is most likely over.

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>>15542518
>No Lamiz

Shit chart.

>>15545032
>But what about the Sv.51 or VF-0D

Ok you got me there.

>>15542885
You know it's funny you guys used to say this about Frontier all the time!

>>15545647

> Frontier was near the galactic core, the closest fleet that will take a reasonable amount of time to get there to help was Galaxy, and Galaxy is dead.

A fleet of Macross class ships of various sizes turns up for the finale, precisely because the threat had been deemed more important than fighting Zentradi if I recall.

> In the case of Delta its much worse, they are at the edge of the galaxy.

And yet NUNs can still send officers and fleets a couple of times in the show. In Frontier there's some excuse for being slow, since the fold drives NUNs used then were susceptible to fold faults; by Delta their fold drives were Vajra derived and much quicker because they didn't have a problem with fold faults.

>>15542870
Nothing is selling now. Why bother putting an effort for the 35th anniversary?

>>15545687
>Khyron's sloppy seconds

>>15542518
>Minmay ranked higher than Millia
Your list is shit and your taste is questionable! Good day, sir.

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>>15548246
>Nothing is selling now.
The Walkure albums sold very well.

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>>15548403
>Khyron
Get the fuck out of here.

is there a longer version of Koi no dogfight than the 1 minute one? Feels like the one in the OVA was longer than that

>>15544240
>Oh hi, shit taste-kun. Did you forget Mylene was also a mediocre pilot and couldn't get the dick in the end either?

Mylene was a professional singer who could also pilot on the battlefield and not get shot down. Mirage is a fucking professional military pilot that can't pilot for good. Not even her genes give her an edge. And she's topped by basically everyone in her squadron. Talk about being a disgrace.

As for the dick, well Mirage lusted after the dick but couldn't get it. Mylene likes Basara but the show never makes it clear shes lusts after Basara in the sexual way. It's her mother that tries to arrange all types of marriages for her. And she's reticent all the way. So the situation is very different. In Macross 7 it's the pilot guy that is lusting after Mylene. Basara on the other hand lusts after no one, ok he lusts after music and a female vampire.

>>15542991
The VF-31A is sexy, almost looks to me like the current generation of American fighters. Would do fine as a grunt model seeing as the F-22 always gets shot down in Hollywood blockbusters.

>>15549910
>and a female vampire
No, you faggot, Basara is pure
He only hung out with Sivil because she was a challenge for him to see if he couldn't music hard enough

>>15548246
> Meanwhile at Robotexhx.com

>>15542518
i don't get why macross isn't more popular
i mean jets and mech and the cute idol stuff is tolerable

>>15550888
It is popular
Very few series last as long as Macross has and have as many entries

>>15550893
everyone just talk about gundam here
and it didn't break the normie market

>>15550934
Everyone talks about Gundam here because Gundam is fucking ridiculously huge and it only gets bigger by the year. I can't think of any anime franchise that even begins to approach Gundam in terms of sheer volume of output unless you count Transformers as an anime franchise. It's like the Japanese Star Trek

Macross is more comparable to a western series like Masters of the Universe. Not the biggest thing in the world, but quite popular, has lasted several decades, gets a new entry every now and then, a few different toylines, most people will recognize it if you bring it up. Although it being brought to the west as Robotech certainly didn't help, it's certainly something that gets brought up more often than the average franchise by someone who isn't a complete uber casual that only watches toonami dubs

>>15550958
hum yeah true
but i fear it doesn't get bigger each years
and i think the absence of video games about it doesn't help

>>15549910

> It's her mother that tries to arrange all types of marriages for her

Millia was mostly focused on arranging a marriage with Gamlin and I don't think she ever tries to arrange one for Mylene with Basara. If she did it was only like once. Mylene's relationship with Basara was basically all her own initiative; the first episode is Mylene asking Millia and Basara to come watch her band play and it's the first time either of them see Basara, but Mylene obviously knows him. Mylene also puts off Gamlin several times for Basara, including at least once saying she can't choose between them and gets jealous anytime another woman shows interest in Basara. There's nothing reticent about her relationship with Basara. Basara doesn't appear to show any interest in her at all, but she shows obvious and repeated interest in him. Mylene also gets shot down at least once, though I'd have to double check to see if or how much more often it happens.

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>>15549910
>professional singer
No one cares, she sounds like a cunt.
>pilot on the battlefield
Yeah anyone can do that.
>not get shot down
Mirage was never shot down.
>Mirage is a fucking professional military pilot that can't pilot for good
She was Delta's newest pilot before Hayate and she was up against super soldier pilots. Mylene went up against brain dead zombie cyborg whatever the fuck kind of pilots they were and even then she barely did shit.
>And she's topped by basically everyone in her squadron
Mylene was topped by everyone as well. By the end of Delta, Mirage was still better than Hayate.
>Mylene likes Basara but the show never makes it clear shes lusts after Basara in the sexual way.
The fuck does it matter if it was sexual or not. It's still romance and Mylene failed at it worse than Mirage.

>>15550888
Because Robotech ran its name into obscurity. That's the name people think off when they see the VF-1 and it itself is an incredibly dead franchise with its cheap online toys and failed kickstarter scams.

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Episode 15 of Macross 7:
>Mylene now wants Basara's dick for some reason
>Milia tricking civies into being battroid recruits
>Bad guys attack again
>Civies get BTFO
>Vets accidentally blow up an entire building and Milia is only MILDLY upset
>Mylene kills baddies but Basara gets asshurt about it
>"all you do is sing, why not protect the fucking people"
>"shut up, you don't understand anything" he says for the fucking millionth time
Okay, has no one gotten Kira Yamato vibes from Basara? Everytime someone argues how unhelpful Basara is to the battle, he just tells them to shut up. It's EXACTLY like how Kira responds in Gundam SEED Destiny when Athrun tells him he's making things worse in battle, he just stays quiet or tells him he doesn't understand. What the fuck? People seriously like Macross 7?

>>15551582
Except Basara's goal was never to help anyone. Unlike Kira, he genuinely doesn't give a fuck about the consequences of his actions so long as he doesn't kill someone. And he never really does actually kill anyone either. Keep watching.

>>15551604
>Except Basara's goal was never to help anyone.
OUR HERO EVERYONE! Christ, this guy is worse than Jesus fucking Yamato.

>>15551640
He's really not. If he wanted to protect people, he would have joined the military (although he does eventually end up doing that because they need him for reasons).

Also, there's a plot point later on that does explain why shooting back at the enemy might not be the most morally righteous thing for him to have done

>>15551582
> People seriously like Macross 7?
Yes, because I listened to his song.

>>15551649
People die because he doesn't do anything. How does some magic BS later justify this? I mean, I'm not asking for spoilers because I don't intend to drop this but god damn. I feel like the writers thought the final battle of the original Macross was so good that they had to do it every episode of this show in the hopes that it would be better. It's not though, it's tedious and nonsensical.

>>15551660
I'm sure there are people dying right now because you're wasting time shitposting on the internet instead of shooting at terrorists. How do you justify that?

Look, Basara may occasionally be in the position to save some soldiers, but he's a civilian and an honest to god pacifist that doesn't want to have blood on his hands and doesn't even really like hitting people. When he flies out into the middle of a battle, he has a different goal in mind entirely and is not mentally or even physically prepared for actual participation in combat since his Valkyrie is for the most part unarmed. He probably would make the situation worse by using real weapons. At the moment, he's not exactly helping anyone (though this will change), but he's not actively hurting anyone either, so the net effect is if he wasn't there at all

>>15551660

Because people would die regardless since him also shooting bullets wouldn't do a thing to stop or even give pause to what's going on, whereas him playing music might actually help. Shooting them is also probably just going to kill a brainwashed innocent that could later be freed, making it just as bad regardless.

>>15551676
>and an honest to god pacifist
I never really got that impression from him. He hates using violence, sure. But really, his issue with other people using violence was less "violence is bad" and more "you're getting in my way, you stupid military fucks."

It always seemed that the reason he doesn't want to use violence isn't that he's a pacifist, but rather that resorting to violence would be akin to admitting that he couldn't resolve the situation with his music alone. I suppose that from a certain perspective you could call him a "pacifist," but he acts that way on account of his ego, not his morals.

>>15551690

He lectures Mylene on one or two occasions for getting him in to a situation where he was forced to use violence, including when just dealing with regular humans on foot. Humans he isn't trying to sing at when the trouble is caused.

>>15551690
I got that impression from him to, which I thought was a rather interesting angle to take. Me saying he's a pacifist was just shorthand for what you typed out, really. I think that's probably the number one reason he never really becomes hypocritical about what he does unlike other "pacifists" such as Kira, Eiji Asuka and almost everyone that goes for the UNDERSTANDING meme

>>15551676
>criticizes a show
>shitposting
From what I'm getting, Basara doesn't seem to give a shit about anyone or anything, just his music. The guy has such a high opinion of himself and the choices he makes that it would SEEM like he may have to learn he's not right. Unfortunately, from the hints I got in shows like Frontier and Delta, 7 seems to be hoing the SEED Destiny route, where the protag was right the wjole time. I'm baffled no one has made the comparison here. Probably the music that makes him immune to criticism.
>>15551678
But Mylene shot bullets and it did put a stop to their destruction. What the hell kind of logic are you arguing here. And I realize the enemy pilots may be brainwashed humans but WHY DOES THAT MATTER? Even Delta had the same shit with Var syndrome but there, they realize they have no choice but to kill them in order to save lives. You're telling me it's okay for hundreds to die because this one baddie is actually brainwashed? That's nonsensical.

>>15551742
>From what I'm getting, Basara doesn't seem to give a shit about anyone or anything, just his music.
See, now you're getting it.

>7 seems to be hoing the SEED Destiny route, where the protag was right the wjole time.
In all honesty, the show doesn't really pass judgement on Basara's attitude, good or bad. His music saves the day, but at the end of the day he's a guy who likes to sing. No more, no less.

>>15551742
Basara isn't "right" about anything because he's not really trying to be anything but a singer. He sees the whole conflict not as something he's there to resolve, but more as something to see whether or not he can affect with his music, not particularly caring about the outcome.

>hundreds to die
The battles take place in space outside Macross 7 proper. The only people that die are the actual combatants.

>>15551750
>the show doesn't really pass judgement on Basara's attitude
People keep telling him to do something but he doesn't. He's not developing, he's not being challenged, he's not learning. Oh but that's okay, the writers meant to write him up like an unlikable douche. Give me a break. Christ, it's bad enough the fights are dull, the music is hit or miss, and the comedy is tasteless.

>>15551769
Because the story isn't really about Basara himself. It's about how his music affects the world around him. He has no character arc because he's literally can't given the overall plot, which requires him to do nothing but sing incessantly.

>>15551755
So you're telling me he doesn't save the galaxy with his singing? Don't be silly, just because he doesn't outright say he wants to prove the military wrong doesn't mean he isn't right. He is right. He's right about everything because Basara is amazing. SEED.......Destiny.
>>15551776
For a show that lacks focus on its own MC, it sure does lionize the hell out of him.
>He has no character arc
Which is this show's problem aside from everything else like music and animation. Just because the writer's intended this doesn't mean it isn't bad. It's really bad so far. I do believe it'll get better because people hyped the fuck out of post episode 20 but damn. Just, damn. People unironically think this is great.

>>15551808
>So you're telling me he doesn't save the galaxy with his singing?
He does, but he's kind of thrust into doing so. He actively resists the military's attempts at getting him to do anything useful and only really goes along with them because they provide him with gadgets by which he can sing harder, so in the end it's more like the military is proven right because they're the ones that put him in the position to help people in the first place. There is only one instance I can think of where exactly what you're complaining about happens, where the military high command (Max's superiors) order them to use a superweapon and then Basara bitches and moans at them until he eventually stops them by going out and solving the problem himself via music. I forget the context though.

>Which is this show's problem
I don't really see how. Basara is kind of a stubborn jackass that doesn't listen to anyone. It wouldn't be all that believable for him to have an arc given his self-assuredness. Judge the show on how well the he serves the plot. I do think the stock footage is kind of annoying, but they do stop doing that as much later on. Don't buy into the hype that much. The show definitely gets much more plot heavy in the latter half and they start to use new and more varied songs, but those are the only changes aside from the more varied animation. If you didn't like the characters as they were in the first half, you're not going to like them in the second half either. Nor will you necessarily like the plot since it revolves around the power of Basara's music.

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>>15542518
>Can it get worse?

>>15542551
>>15542520
Macross 7 is decent. Macross Frontier is the second-best TV series.

Delta was just fucked over by a terrible writer, bad animators, and a lazy director.

>>15542966
Blue?

>>15544096
>>15544081
Aren't the Zentraedi still fighting the Supervision Army during all the events of the Macross series?

>>15551860
>only really goes along with them because they provide him with gadgets by which he can sing harder
So he is right and this just proves it because even the military are convinced he is right and knows best that they'll go out and make shit for him.

The shows lacks a plot where I am now so static characters only deepen that wound. I'm not necessarily against Basara singing to save the galaxy, I'm against the fact that he isn't challenged or doesn't go through any change. Like maybe violence is necessary SOMETIMES or maybe he should AT LEAST immobilize enemies Kira Yamato style which was hinted in the first few episodes when he used missiles to save Rex and Mylene but it seems like all that was abandoned in favor of showing us how awesome Basara is. There was potential for a better, stronger Basara here. And if the show doesn't want to give us that, at least give us something visually impressive. 2D VF animation is charming here but I feel like this should have been an OVA or a movie from the start. If a show doesn't want its MC to develop in any way possible, what the fuck it the point of giving it 49 episodes? If Basara is gonna stay the living gimmick he is, at least have him and his valk gloriously animated. I'm not getting that here. God, nearly everything about this anime is worse than the original.

>>15551936
>maybe he should AT LEAST immobilize enemies Kira Yamato style which was hinted in the first few episodes when he used missiles to save Rex and Mylene but it seems like all that was abandoned in favor of showing us how awesome Basara is.
Ray tricked him into launching those missiles. Basara felt incredibly betrayed that Ray would have missiles mounted on his Fire Valkyrie and probably vowed to never use them again.

>>15551936
One wonders how it got popular enough to warrant the M7 OVAs.

>>15551941
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The character himself killed his own character arc. Hell, just an episode ago, Milia was yelling orders to Basara which opened up yet more potential for another character arc: to see Basara become a better pilot. Im only an episode after this happened but I'm almost sure she never teaches or trains him after this. Am I right? I'm right, aren't I?
>>15551945
Its music? That's literally the only reason one can enjoy this drag of a show. But this should have been that in the first place. If it wants to be stupid, nonsensical fun with little to no story or character development, it should at least look good.

>>15551936
>So he is right and this just proves it because even the military are convinced he is right and knows best that they'll go out and make shit for him.
Now you're just kind of stretching it to justify your own hatred of the character. Again, Basara is, for the most part, amoral and makes no character judgments about things that are not directly relevant to him. Him having the power to accomplish things is why he's the protagonist, and if that's what makes him "right", nearly all protagonists are right about everything

> I'm against the fact that he isn't challenged or doesn't go through any change.
Did you fall for the TvTropes meme of everything needing to be a complex narrative with dynamic characters with fifty backstories and constantly changing allegiances? The first part of the show is just a laid back affair that tries to entertain by showing you slice of life scenes about and music of a futuristic rock band and laying the foundation for the larger conflict in the latter half. If you're not entertained by that, that's on you. Now if you're upset by the repetitiveness or the wasting of potential, that's a different story, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with a show that has a simple plot and characters.

>what the fuck it the point of giving it 49 episodes?
Indeed, the show probably could be shortened somewhat. I'm not entirely sure why the first half is as long as it is, but if I had to guess, it was them getting a larger than expected budget from a toy company that wanted them to shill the new Valkyries as much as possible. That kinda thing happened a lot in the 90s. See: the Brave and Transformers series.

>>15552125
But there's a time when a protagonist is wrong and it bites them back. Basara doesn't learn any kind of lesson or go through any kind of struggle which makes this 49 episode show feel pointless. Also, amoral my ass. How can he not care about anything except his song but then suddenly he cares when Rex and Mylene are in danger on separate occasions. Even his priorities are confusing.

If a show is going to be nearly 50 episodes, it better fucking have something going on besides showing us literally the same shit again and again. Slice of life anime are more interesting than this because at least then, ramdy school girl goes through some kind of struggle and has to figure shit out. Basara doesn't do even that. It's even worse since early episodes gave hints of him changing his methods or somehow developing into something but get tossed out almost instantly. The plot isn't "simple", it's nonsense.

Like I said, if it's not gonna have any dynamic character development, it should have never been a TV show. Macross 7 doesn't have a story, it was clearly meant to be a one shot kind of thing for the sake mindless fun. It should have been a movie. This is just like my experience with Gundam F91, where it had too much story it should have been a TV show.

>larger than expected budget
Considering the limited mecha animation and extremely dull character animation, I doubt that. Then again, with 49 episodes, it was probably due to shitty decision making.

>>15552288
>go through any kind of struggle
Have you not just been sitting through 20 episodes of him accomplishing nothing because literally no one gives a shit about his music?

>Also, amoral my ass
Amoral regarding anything not relevant to him. Rex and Mylene are friends of his and the latter is a member of his band. He's not so ridiculously cold hearted that he ignores those close to him. He's just not interested in larger moral dilemmas for the most part.

You haven't gotten to the plot yet

> if it's not gonna have any dynamic character development,
It does, just not with Basara. Ironically, much of it happens with Max and Millia, who I found to be extremely boring in SDF.

>Considering the limited mecha animation and extremely dull character animation
You're really not familiar with episodic mecha shows, are you? How much mecha have you even watched outside of Gundam and Macross?

>>15551936
Basara doesn't necessarily change (after all, his status as something of an immovable object is the core of the show), but I certainly don't understand where the hell you're coming from when you say he's not challenged.

<

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>>15544398
YF-21/VF-22 were peak design. No doubt.

>>15552314
>accomplishing nothing
Yet the baddies go the fuck away whenever he arrives.

Doesn't seem to give a fuck beyond them. This guy is the worst kind of enigma.

Maybe Max and Milia should have had a tv show while Basara should have had an OVA or movie. Makes more sense than wasting almost 50 episodes on a living gimmick of a character.

Don't give a shit. Reused animation isn't something I dislike all that much but that's mostly because shows that suffer greatly from that like 0079, SDFM, G Gundam, or SEED(loosely anyways) have interesting characters and/or and interesting stories. 7 doesn't. It's not meant to be long. Nothing about it screams 50 fuckung episodes.

>>15552336
The show makes sure to let you know how amazing he is. Like I said many times before, it's the SEED Destiny of Macross, where in that show, it made sure to let you know how righteous Kira is. Any instance of Basara having to change his ways gets thrown out the window in an instant.

>>15552336
He changes plenty, you just have to listen to his song. Seriously, that's where all his character development is.

>>15552391
VF-19 gets more love though. Sickening, I know.

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>>15552405
I can understand why, same reason the YF-22 was chosen over the YF-23. Some people just aren't into A E S T H E T I C S

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>>15552397
>Yet the baddies go the fuck away whenever he arrives.
please stop being intentionally retarded.

>>15552408
YF-23 always looked to me like a playdough model of an YF-22 that someone stepped on.
It's so flat and spread out.

>>15552397
>Makes more sense than wasting almost 50 episodes on a living gimmick of a character.
>Any instance of Basara having to change his ways gets thrown out the window in an instant.
Stop acting like Macross 7 is even remotely about Basara as a character

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>>15552414
I guess I can kinda see it.

>>15552413
When was the last time you seen the show? In instances when the UN isn't there to help, Basara sings and they just leave.
>>15552424
If it's not going to be about Basara even though it praises the hell out of him, it might as well not even be a show. That's probably the show's biggest problem. It's own existence. It overstays its welcome.

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>>15552506
Seriously, stop being fucking dumb.
The aliens leave BECAUSE of him singing, they can't deal with the anima spiritia.
If you can't cotton on to that, your mother was probably a raging alcoholic during your conception.

>>15552513
That's what I'm saying you retard. This proves my point against the other anon who was arguing Basara doesn't accomplish anything. I'm saying he does the entire time which is why he fucking sucks.

>>15552506
It does not praise Basara at all, you yourself have mentioned how other characters try to get him to behave differently. Which is it?

>>15552521
> I'm saying he does the entire time
Except them leaving is not what he's trying to accomplish. Every time, he yells at them for not understanding because he wants them to actually listen to his damn music, which he ostensibly fails at getting them to do.

>>15543018
>SDF
>good

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>>15550979
Project Aces making a large Macross game is my vidya dream.

>>15552541
You forget me mentioning that after they try to get him to behave differently, he ends up ignoring them and being right in the end.
>i put missiles in ur valk
>*gasp* how dare you, i feel so betrayed
>never uses missiles again

Did you not hear Mylene anon rant on about anima spiritia? He is getting them to listen, they go away because they literally cannot handle how awesome he and his song are.

>>15552546
If you don't like SDF, I don't know what you're doing here man.

>>15552555
>If you don't like SDF, I don't know what you're doing here man.
Maybe he only likes Plus or something.

>>15552555
>>15552557
I like pretty much every Macross series.

But I'm not going to pretend SDF isn't EXTREMELY flawed in both writing and animation. It's called not being a nostalgiafag. Try it some time.

Plus's writing is even worse.

>>15552563
Well I never said SDF was perfect and I do agree it's flawed but it's still a good anime. It's still the best out of all of them.

>>15542946
>Am I alone in thinking that Frontier was pretty boring?
No, but Frontier had ten or so years for shitposters to lose their attention.

>>15552555
Again, you fail to even define what "being right" means. And you're also completely ignoring my point, which is that Basara is actually being challenged. He is attempting to do something and not succeeding.

Look, we get it. You hate Basara. You don't need to invent reasons out of thin air and argue with /m/ about it, just say he's an asshole and be done with it. Plenty of people here agree with you.

>>15543215
>not flower girl
>not one of the cute bridge dispatchers
Please consider reevaluating your tastes, anon.

>>15552576
He aint even that much of an asshole.

>>15552576
>which is that Basara is actually being challenged.
Okay fine, technically he is being challenged.
>someone challenges his methods
>he doesn't do shit about it and never changes
Wow, some challenge.

>He is attempting to do something and not succeeding.
But he's been succeeding the entire time.

Criticizing the lack of character development isn't inventing shit. He's a fucking horrible MC for a long ass tv show. This being intentional doesn't stop him from being shit.

I'll give M7 some credit though. It's better than Robotech.

>>15552587
You are inventing shit because you keep criticizing him for not changing in order to do something that was never his goal in the first place.

Basara's goal is for people to listen to his goddamn song

There's no reason for him to equip rockets and machine guns to his valkyrie in order to accomplish that. He does not succeed at that the entire time because when he flies out into battle to sing, the battles end and everyone goes away. You could argue that he should change in response to this failure, but that's not Basara's character. Basara is yet another in a long line of Japanese heroes who do not believe in giving up and achieve victory through determination. Mecha has been pulling this shit ever since Mazinger Z, and if you have a problem with this, you probably have a problem with mecha as a whole.

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>>15548246
ok

>>15543600
Not the other anon, but that was probably the weakest comeback ever.

>>15552598
>There's no reason for him to equip rockets and machine guns to his valkyrie in order to accomplish that.
If he's tired of them leaving, he could, I don't know, fucking immobilize them so they can't leave. Kira Yamato style? Because that's what this guy pretty much is. Kira Yamato, except he just sings and isn't smart enough to realize you can use weapons and be a pacifist while pilotting a fucking robot.

The fuck does it matter if a not Macross anime does some shit that I don't care for. This is Macross. People liked it because we got to see a boy become a man and get bitches. Victory through determination my ass. He's been victorious the entire time. He was always right.

>>15551247
>No one cares
No one but you, familia :^)
>she sounds like a cunt
No she doesnt.
>Mirage was never shot down
She is a professional military pilot. It is not a big achievement for people in that line of work.
>Mylene was topped by everyone as well
Can you even read you mongoloid? MYLENE WAS NOT A FUCKING PILOT. She can fly a little and not crash, it is not a big deal to top that.

>>15552614
>If he's tired of them leaving, he could, I don't know, fucking immobilize them so they can't leave. Kira Yamato style? Because that's what this guy pretty much is. Kira Yamato, except he just sings and isn't smart enough to realize you can use weapons and be a pacifist while pilotting a fucking robot.
Did you hit your head and buy into /m/'s definition of pacifism? Actual pacifism means abstaining from any and all violence, including non-lethal violence.

>>15551640
>only good protagonist is murrican goody-two-shoes stereotype

>>15552619
Literally the most retarded logic. This anime is fucking bad enough without an MC like that.
>>15552621
>implying Americans are good

>>15551742
>From what I'm getting, Basara doesn't seem to give a shit about anyone or anything, just his music
He cares about his music more than about saving every single grunt at the battlefield because he believes that it has the power to stop the war that otherwise would just continue endlessly. And in the end he is right.

>>15551860
>He actively resists the military's attempts at getting him to do anything useful
>anything useful
Like kill a hundred more brainwashed humans instead of using his song to heal them and stop the conflict once and for all? Useful my ass.

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>>15552616
>No one but you, familia :^)
Okay I laughed a bit.
>No she doesnt.
Well of course not to you. You probably can't hear anymore after all those sessions of you masturbating to her ear destroying voice.
>She is a professional military pilot. It is not a big achievement for people in that line of work.
Then why mention Mylene not getting shot down? She's a Jenius amirite?
>MYLENE WAS NOT A FUCKING PILOT
She was. But not as good as Mirage. You said so your self, she's a professional :^)

Important thing to not. Mirage has nice tits. Mylene is fucking ugly.

>>15551936
>I'm against the fact that he isn't challenged
Pretty much every character of the show hates him at some point for not wanting to resort to violence. Do you honestly think that keep your moral values and beliefs in the situation where everybody around will hate you for not changing them is not a challenge? Go watch Hacksaw ridge, for example - at least.

>>15552614
>If he's tired of them leaving, he could, I don't know, fucking immobilize them so they can't leave.
His goal is make THEM change to WILLINGLY stop fighting and listen to his song, not brake their legs and rape their ears. Is this too hard to understand?

>>15552660
Kek yeah, don't fucking cut their battroid legs and arms off, but a gun that shoots tiny music plays through their alien valks, nah that's okay. This is exactly why this kind of protagonist is fucking retarded.

>>15552648
>There can't be more than one man disagreeing with me!
The post.

>Then why mention Mylene not getting shot down? She's a Jenius amirite?
She is a Jenius, but she is not a pilot. You are basically calling Bolko von Richthofen a shitty pilot for not being able to fly at all. That would be true if he actually was trying to be a military pilot, but he was a historian and never intended to do so in the first place. Just like Mylene, who was a singer who happened to be able to pilot Valkyrie, but never actually wanted to do so until the situation called for it.
>She was. But not as good as Mirage. You said so your self, she's a professional :^)
Well, Mirage was a better pilot than a fourteen year old schoolgirl who was once in the cockpit with her mother. And you are better at using your PC than your grandmother. Does that make you a Carmack-level programmer? Not really.

>>15552665
it's almost like there's a difference between a disable/mobility kill and convincing the enemy to surrender

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>>15552674
>Well, Mirage was a better pilot than a fourteen year old schoolgirl
Why did you argue otherwise to begin with, shit taste-kun?

>>15552684
I newer argued that, i merely pointed out that Mylene was not a professional pilot at all so comparing their piloting skills is completely irrelevant - because hell, why not check Mirage's obviously low skill of playing the guitar? But let's assume i did. Do you genuinely think that being an ace equals being better than a fourteen year old schoolgirl who was once in the cockpit with her mother? You are even more retarded than i thought.

>bitching about Basara
You wouldn't notice this on your first viewing of Macross 7, but 7 isn't about Basara, 7 is about everyone around Basara.
Basara doesn't change or grow as a character, the ones that does are the ones around him. All he does is be there as the PoV character and push along the development of other characters. There's a good reason why /m/ loves Gamlin, anon.

Basara does speak of realistic things despite his craziness though(Like his rant about the use of reaction weaponry), and overall he doesn't cause more deaths. It can be argued that he actually does more good by providing a loud and flashy distraction that the enemies would shoot at rather than the actual combatants.

>>15551742

> From what I'm getting, Basara doesn't seem to give a shit about anyone or anything, just his music. The guy has such a high opinion of himself and the choices he makes that it would SEEM like he may have to learn he's not right.

He doesn't though. He's not obstinate because he has a high opinion of himself, his music or his choice, he's obstinate because he wants to see if he can move the galaxy with his music like Lynn Minmei did and won't give up on trying until he dies.

> Mylene shot bullets and it did put a stop to their destruction

It put a stop to the actions of some hypontized low level mooks who were mostly testing the system to see how far it could be pushed. Bullets, bombs and even Macross cannons have literally no effect on the actual villains, so shooting them does no good. Even shooting the low level mooks is counter productive, since it's not what actually stops them ultimately, that's overloading their sense via anima spiritia like Basara does.

Not that Basara is doing it to drive them away, that's an unintended side effect. Basara wants people to listen to his music; not just hear it, listen to it. In the first half of the show though, the people who hear it run without listening to it. So he keeps trying, and for a long ass time, failing.

> WHY DOES THAT MATTER?

It matters to Basara because he doesn't want to fight, hurt or kill people, not even to save more lives. He's a pacifist in purest sense of the word and doesn't condone violence of any kind, for any reason. He's comparable to Kaifun in that regard.

>>15551973

She has no real need to train him, because while he's not a great Gerwalk pilot he's one of the best pilots in Macross already even when piloting with a bizarre control mechanism and while refusing to do harm. Max and Millia are the only ones better than him, and even that's arguable. The guy pilots a VF-1 and VF-19 with regular controls while playing an acoustic guitar.

>>15549910

> She's topped by basically everyone in her squadron.

She's a better pilot than Chuck, especially by show's end. She's also a better pilot than Hayate, who needed a musical buff to be good most of the time, and would have died if not for it on several occasions.

>>15552785
Meh, but the characters around him are either stupid or unlikeable. Mylene is annoying, Milia is unusually passive about things like nearly killing her own daughter or old men blowing up entire buildings, Max is just kind of there, the band is dull, literally the only character worth a damn is Gamlin who probably should have been the MC. Turn A Gundam did a better job of pulling off the static MC that changes people around him. That anime had a pacifist too, but he was also not a fucking egotistical idiot.
>>15553357
>It matters to Basara because he doesn't want to fight, hurt or kill people, not even to save more lives.
Best Macross MC confirmed.
>He's comparable to Kaifun in that regard.
Hey guys I got a great idea for a sequel. Let's make that cunt from the original series an MC. Sheesh, no wonder even Kawamori thought 7 was a failure.

>>15553688

You appear to be implying that a main character has to also be a heroic character, which they don't. Main characters are allowed to be selfish, arrogant or any number of other bad traits so long as it serves the story. Basara's pacifism served the story.

>>15553721
There was barely a stpry to begin with. It's about as good as Delta's.

>>15553733

Again, not the issue. A story doesn't have to be good for a main character to serve it. Nor does a character have to be heroic to be the main character or to serve the story. If you don't like the main character or the story that's fine, but acting like they're bad simply because they're not what you want or expect is silly.

>>15553739
I'm getting a lot of that here.
>main character doesn't have to change or develop
>main character isn't right, he's just not wrong
>the writers did it on purpose
>the story is supposed to be nonexistent
>everyone is supposed to be unlikable
For the record, whatever little story there is, I don't dislike. I have nothing against Basara's song saving galaxy because that's what Macross is about really. It's HOW he gets there I dislike so far because it's a drag. MC is a bore and the supporting cast is no better. It doesn't even look or sound good as an anime.

>>15552665
>but a gun that shoots tiny music plays through their alien valks, nah that's okay.
How else is he supposed to get anyone to listen across the fucking vacuum of space, retard? It's not like he has a direct line of communication to his enemies, he's just some fucking bum with a robot.

>>15553779
>main character doesn't have to change or develop
It's on you to explain why they should have to

>main character isn't right, he's just not wrong
It's on you to explain what "being right" means when you have consistently not done so

>the writers did it on purpose
Of course they did. You judging the story when you haven't seen the full show doesn't fucking help and it makes half of this discussion be a waste of time explaining things that could be cleared up if you'd just shut the fuck up and finish the story before continuing to whine about nothing


>the story is supposed to be nonexistent
see above point

>everyone is supposed to be unlikable
If that's what you think, it's on you. I liked everyone in the story, Basara included. It's not the show's fault if you don't find certain personalities entertaining.

>>15553823
>It's on you to explain why they should have to
Because it's almost 50 fucking episodes. Old Gundam tv shows have this because their characters have a long ass journey ahead of them. Basara has none.

>It's on you to explain what "being right" means when you have consistently not done so
Things like saving his friends with missiles but then never doing it again because he's too good for that. Also the constant "you don't understand" argument here repeats again and again with Mylene.

>You judging the story when you haven't seen the full show doesn't fucking help
But no one is saying I'm wrong about the assumptions I made. Milia doesn't teach him to pilot better, Basara doesn't use weapons again even nonlethally, Basara doesn't change in any way whatsoever, literally the only change is newer baddies besides mind controlled humans. I plan to keep watching anyways, even if I am right about this.

>>15553850

> Because it's a longer story

That's a reason, but it's not a valid one. Just because a story is longer doesn't mean the characters have to develop more, especially when the supporting cast and plot do develop regardless.

> he's too good for that

Which is never how it's presented. He saves his friends constantly regardless, he just doesn't use lethal methods or weapons to do it because he doesn't believe in that. That's no more "he's too good for it" than someone who believes in abstinence not going drinking with you when you ask him, but still hanging out with you in a pub.

> Also the constant "you don't understand" argument here repeats again and again with Mylene

Because she doesn't, and he's not particularly good at explaining himself.

> literally the only change is newer baddies

Mylene, Gamlin, Millia, Max and others change, the plot develops etc. What doesn't happen is things you are asking for, which is why no-one is contradicting you.

>>15553868
>That's a reason, but it's not a valid one.
Wasting 20 episodes on nothing but the same shit isn't a valid reason to say the show is bad. Heard you loud and clear.

>Which is never how it's presented
Except it is, because he saves everyone in the end.

>Mylene, Gamlin, Millia, Max and others change, the plot develops etc.
I'll keep watching to see this.

>>15553850
>Because it's almost 50 fucking episodes
Mazinger Z is 92 episodes. Kouji Kabuto has little to no character arc, and the show has little to no plot. And it's fucking great. And you know why? The episodic plots themselves are entertaining. This is just one of many examples that renders this point a non-argument. The show being fifty or even five hundred episodes does not mean that Basara needs a character arc. Basara would only need a character arc if it was either necessary for the plot or it would happen as a natural result of the events of the plot given who he is in the first place. Neither of these are the case with Macross 7. So why do you continue to insist he should have one? A character arc does not magically make the show more entertaining. Your insistence on it seems to be based on you hating Basara as a person rather than the story actually needing it.

>Things like saving his friends with missiles but then never doing it again because he's too good for that
I don't see what this has to do with the definition of the word "right," but regardless this thread has already explained at length how Basara hates violence in all forms. He doesn't do it again because that's who he is, not because he's arbitrarily "correct" about something. Gamlin continues to shoot at the enemy and no one complains about this, Basara included

>>15553899

> Wasting 20 episodes on nothing but the same shit isn't a valid reason to say the show is bad. Heard you loud and clear.

Then you heard what you wanted to hear and not what I said, because I never said you had to like it or even that it was good; only that it was a valid method of doing things.

> Except it is, because he saves everyone in the end.

He saves everyone by singing in the end, not by violence. How does that make violence "too good for him"? He doesn't use violence because he doesn't believe in it or see it as a worthwhile exchange. You do, that doesn't mean anyone or any character who disagrees sees it as too good for them, just that they don't agree.

>>15553915
I never seen Mazinger Z but this passage from the wiki:
>Overtime, Koji showed growth by fighting enemies more equally and never giving up even when near death. He possesses a strong will, never backing down from a challenge even when the Mazinger is badly beaten and can no longer fight.

>Beneath this hot-blooded exterior is a compassionate side Koji usually only shows to his loved ones.
reminds me more of G Gundam's Domon than Basara. Should watch it someday.

>>15553929
>He saves everyone by singing in the end, not by violence. How does that make violence "too good for him"?
Never said that. I said HE was too good for violence.

>>15542920
Where did you get this info from?

>>15553933
Nah, he's really pretty much like that from the beginning. He's always nice to his little brother Shiro and he never really gives up from the start. The most change you see in him is that he starts off as a really crappy pilot and becomes more skilled after spending enough episodes in the cockpit

A lot of 70s shows don't even have that latter bit but are still perfectly entertaining

>>15553939

Oh my apologies, I mistyped. The point remains regardless that he isn't not using violence because he thinks it's beneath him, but because he doesn't believe in it and because he wants to prove singing can achieve what he does believe in.

>>15553947
>The most change you see in him is that he starts off as a really crappy pilot and becomes more skilled after spending enough episodes in the cockpit
Dude, that's something. Also, G Gundam was also like this for the first 10 episodes in which Domon was always angry, reckless, quick to get into a fight, and was hellbent on finding his brother. But even then there were moments which showed a different side of Domon like when Russian Gundam was about to kill his friend, Rain, and he immediately volunteered to surrender the battle and his own Gundam to the Russian pilot for Rain's sake.

>>15553688
>Meh, but the characters around him are [opinions]
We get it, you don't like M7. But you are trying to justify it with some bullshit "laws" and "rules" the characters must follow. Please stop doing this.
>literally the only character worth a damn is Gamlin who probably should have been the MC
See: >>15552621

>>15553779
>main character doesn't have to change
No, he does not have to change.
>or develop
No, he does not have. Usually he does that for the sake of good story, and Basara is not an exception, but there are stories that are concidered classic based on the idea of the character staying the same. Some of Tchekhov's short stories, for example.
>main character isn't right, he's just not wrong
It is almost like there are many different shades of grey inbetween the black and white.
>the writers did it on purpose
They did.
>the story is supposed to be nonexistent
See: slice of life. Majority of M7 is exactly that.
>everyone is supposed to be unlikable
It is called "flawed" and it is usually considered to be positive for the show. By the way, i don't understand why are you so pissed off about 14 years old rich spoiled girl and j-punk band frontman behaving like, well, 14 years old rich spoiled girl and j-punk band frontman. Nor do i see anything unlikable in Max, Millia, Ray, Veffidas and Gamlin.

>>15554017
>short stories
Maybe that's what M7 should have been the entire time because nothing about it is worth 50 episodes of suck.
>slice of life
School girl anime is more dynamic than this.
>It is called "flawed" and it is usually considered to be positive for the show.
Milia getting only mildly annoyed after a Konig Monster destroys an entire building is more than just mere flaw.

>>15553980
Well, it's not really him changing as a person, which makes him more similar to Basara as a result. It's comparable to Basara coming up with new songs to sing as the show progresses.

And yeah, it's not like Basara is a total uncaring dick either. You've seen him go out of his way to rescue Mylene before, and you've seen him eventually going along with her ideas to make Fire Bomber more popular (which is incidentally what kicks off the plot proper as a result). I may be remembering wrong, but I think there's one point where he thanks Gamlin for protecting him as he sings. Basara's an obstinate bastard to be sure, but there are times when he remembers that he's a human being and not a living jukebox

>>15554060
>I-it SUCKS! Mom, tell them! Moooom!
>I SAID IT SUCKS!
>One of the characters DARED to react NOT like I EXPECTED her to!!! So IT SUCKS!
Pathetic.

>>15554151
>HOW DERE JOO CRITIQUE MUH NOSTALGIA ANIMU

>>15554211
I am yet to see any critique, sir. Everything you've pumped since the beginning of the tread is either your opinions about characters which you everybody must take as facts or some bullshit writing rules you keep pulling out of your ass which are supposed to be universal, according to you. And i don't even mention straight up lies about Basara not being challenged. You don't like the characters because you find them annoying, fine (guess hoping that you will name at least one reason why is too much). You don't like MC because you can't relate to his motivations and position, fine. You don't like the format, fine. You expect me to agree that every character should be written according to your standard and every show should have the number of episodes that you set? Choke on a horsecock, faggot.

Episode 17. Physica is dead. It was extremely predictable but it still hit me. We never got to know him that well either which is a shame because he gave me rookie vibes, probably the voice.

Basara is still a turbo autist but the plot seems to be changing already and I'm not in ep 20 yet.

>>15554407
>I am yet to see any critique
So not even shitty overused animation, shitty recycled bgm, and repetitive plot on the first half is criticism. Sheesh that nostalgia is like a drug.

>>15555720
>So not even shitty overused animation, shitty recycled bgm, and repetitive plot on the first half is criticism
This is literally the first time in the thread you brought that up.

>>15555831
I stated crap about shit animation and bgm here >>15551808

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14KB, 160x160px

I just want you to know that you even went space crazy and tried to use a protoculture weapon to unify the minds (or souls or something gay) of all humanoid life in the galaxy I would try to save you.
We have been friends our entire lives so I know you are definitely not an asshole therefore you are only temporarily space crazy and it is my responsibility to save you.
I would definitely not help our hated enemy murder you.

>>15556253
Some of you guys are alright
don't visit Al Shahal tomorrow