Why did Macross become such shitty weebshit, moeshit, and idolshit?

Guessing bait, but idc

Macross was always idolshit, the only exception was Macross Plus and Macross Zero. It just did idolshit really darned well.

>>15493184
what if Minmay showed her midriff

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>>15493184

Anime fans became extremely autistic from the early 2000's onward, so going all out with moeshit pandering was the only way to make Macross relevant again.

This wouldn't be such a big deal had it not been for the fact that the series overall just became way more formulaic than it was before. We're never again going to get anything that truly goes beyond our expectations like Plus and Zero did. Just shitty DYRL/7 rehashes for as long as it lives.

>>15493212
>m-muh manime

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>>15493189
Sharon is waifu material.

>>15493212
That's clearly a Zentradi in a rubber Valkyrie costume.
Valks can't bend those ways

>>15493184
It was all of that from the very start.
I still can't find a single reason to justify garbage like "My boyfriend is a pilot".

>>15493184
I don't know.

The original Macross is a tongue-in-cheek space opera classic. Its successors take the concept way too literally and turn it into a waifu anime.

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>>15493237

Does it really trigger you that badly that some people are just interested in seeing a decently written sci-fi story instead of bog standard wish fulfillment fantasy? Good job proving my point I guess.

>>15493281
>a decently written sci-fi story
was that the one with the romantic knife fight or the one with the "lol oh yeah you tried to rape her back in the day. good times"

>>15493281
>decently written
And then Minmei sang her song and the Zentrdai and Humans lived happily ever after.
The End.

>>15493281

SDF is as much wish fulfillment fantasy as any modern Macross. More so than them in a way really, since Hikaru is more of an everyman than Alto or Hayate, and Minmay more of an everywoman than Sheryl or Freyja.

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>>15493332
>Hikaru is more of an everyman than Alto or Hayate, and Minmay more of an everywoman than Sheryl or Freyja.

Except Hikaru and Minmay don't end up together in the end because overcoming that huge clash in lifestyles they had was too idealistic, which lead him to the plainer, but more mature and relatable Misa.

Good job proving you haven't actually watched SDF, shitpost-kun.

>>15493350

Everything you just posted has literally nothing to do with whether SDF's main characters are everymen/everywomen or not. Nor did I ever say they end up together for that matter. However, if you want to say that the only wish fulfillment part that matters on judging the show was whether the main character ends up with the hot/famous person, then Minmay practically throws herself at Hikaru in the climax of the show/film and he chooses someone else, which is still wish fulfillment. Just because he says no doesn't make it so. Especially in SDF where he ends up dithering on that decision for the next dozen episodes before choosing the more normal girl.

>>15493363
>However, if you want to say that the only wish fulfillment part that matters on judging the show was whether the main character ends up with the hot/famous person, then Minmay practically throws herself at Hikaru in the climax of the show/film

Yes, but only after her rise to stardom proves to be futile at filling an empty spot in her life, and Kaifun abuse leads to her desperately seeking some comfort.

She wasn't being sincere the first time she tried making an on the spot romance with Hikaru, so what makes you think it would be for real this time?

>>15493387

Because when she makes the offer on board the Macross during the climax of SDF in episode 27 she's still riding high and hadn't found an empty spot in her life. That only came afterwards.

>>15493184
Nothing went wrong, it just went with the time. If you don't like that, then that's ok, but it's not made to appeal to you. It's made to appeal to the current generation.

>>15493237
>>15493189
Right, we're not allowed to want anime that looks different,
I fucking hate your types so much a D it's disgusting that 4chan is filled with people who just pretend there's no problem in the current industry
Pull your head out of your ass

>>15493302
To be fair, the romantic knife fight is exactly the way to get eugenically superior pilots.

>>15493438

And yet, Mylene and Mirage have both proven themselves to be incredibly shitty pilots, of all their descendants seen.

>>15493484

Which only goes to show that skill isn't genetically programmed. Though it makes me recall that two second tease of Mirage as a child sitting in a VF with Max at Jenius Airfield and realize how fun seeing more slice of life of Max, Millia, their kids and grandkids in a civilian setting could be.

>>15493184
Which macross is the one to the right? pls no bully, I'm a tokufag

>>15493423
The industry is just being what it always has been. If that annoys you, then I don't know why you aren't complaining about why it's been that way since the start.

>>15493423
What problem?
There's still muh mature manimes being made.

>>15493423
stop watching anime, problem solved

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>>15493423

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>>15493184
>he doesn't know Minmay was from the original Macross

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>>15493184
>Why did Macross become such shitty weebshit, moeshit, and idolshit?

Because that's what the otaku want so that's what the otaku get because they're the ones buying the Blurays and other merchandise that drive the industry.

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>>15493184
>implying Macross has not always been that way.

newfags should learn to lurk more.

>>15493350
Wasn't it because Minmei wanted Hikaru to give up everything that he'd built up and worked hard for in his life for her own selfish wishes?

Hikaru wanted to move forward with his life, not start all over again.

>>15493184
The original Macross did have an idol, as in one, and she wasn't the waifu bait and pandering they are now. She was literally just a pop star who provided music and was a character who was one of two love interests. Turns out her music shocked the gaint space people and made them start thinking about more than fighting, which was all it was at first, Culture Shock. It was nice, and I think DYRL was/is nice too.

Plus was alright and also had an Idol, which wasn't what the plot was based around at all. It was about that Idol, who was an AI, went "wild" after being set loose and high jacked a prototype Super Drone. Best Rage Bro dies destorying the drone and Loveable Jackass saves his GF and destroys the AI.
I really liked Plus. Information High wasn't a love song, and I think it is one of the best in the series.

Macross 7 had good 90s rock, and also an autist who really wanted people to listen to his good 90s rock. Suddenly music does more than just make people think about the music, I feel as if this is where things started getting... Strange.

Frontier was during the full swung Idol craze, and had Idols that were clearly waifu bait and waifu pandering. Okay, we have two Idols now. Developed blonde hair who dresses like a slut and super kawaii loli, who also apparently had whore artwork. Okay, something's wrong here.
It was okay in general, I guess, I still don't like Idolshit.

Delta's when we lost it. Entire team of Idols, each matched to a pilot, again to profit off of Idol Waifus. Music being a protoculture weapon is the goddamned dumbest thing I could every think of from this series, even dumber than the size changing and the Idols being super important. Even Anima Spiritia was basically Fire Bomber just putting their heart and soul into their music, and that effected the Space Vampires. We've got a a problem here.
I didn't get to watch Delta, so I can't really speak for it outside of the bits and pieces I've learned as a "filthy" secondary.

>>15494648

Yes, that's also a part of it but their incompatibility issues go back way farther than that.

Remember the scene where Hikaru calls Minmay all shooken up about watching a bunch of pilots get shot down on a recent mission? And how she completely fails to understand the gravity of his situation by going on about how stressful her day was in showbiz like any other conversation? It was fairly obvious to me at that point that it could never work out for the two of them.

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>>15493484
To be fair Mirage was never given enough screentime to show us what she could do. The first episode show made her out to be competent enough despite being a newby. Wait a fucking minute, she was a newby! Why the fuck was she picked to train Hayate? Arad has got to be the worst squadron leader ever.

>>15493184
My problem with Macross is it barely experimented with genres and the musical themes behind them.

Fuck, they only did a rock band once yet there's a lot more you can do with that than with the usual pop star idol thing.

Hell, why not hip hop Macross based on the time when there was actual violence between rappers

>>15493323
That's literally the opposite of what happens. The last few episodes establish very clearly that human/zentradi relations are extremely troubled and that "culture" is not an end-all be-all to fixing race relations and curbing the zentradi warrior mindset.

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>>15494668
>she wasn't the waifu bait and pandering they are now
Don't be such a retard, anon. We got a good look at her bare ass, she participated in a swimsuit contest, and she was super kawaii for the 80s.

>Best Rage Bro
>almost rapes friend
>best anything

>had good 90s rock, and also an autist
Don't forget the cutie patootie who also liked showing us ass and was almost raped by a woman at one point.

>Okay, something's wrong here.
Yes anon, how DARE they show us tits and ass in an anime.

>Delta's when we lost it. Entire team of Idols, each matched to a pilot, again to profit off of Idol Waifus.
Delta was shit but idols aren't why it sucked you autist.
>Music being a protoculture weapon is the goddamned dumbest thing I could every think of from this series
But shooting giant lasers of your mouth with the power of rock is totally logical.
>I didn't get to watch Delta
Nigger, this proves you have no say in what made Delta such a colossal disappointment. It wasn't the idols, the only faggots who blame idols for Delta are stupid fucking shit bait like OP. Or Robotech cucks.

>>15493212
SDF was the original moeshit you fucking idiot

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>>15494720

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>>15494797
Get rekt son.

>>15494682
I think that there were a lot of moments that proved that Hikaru and Minmei were incompatible. From the blase way she acted when Hikaru was mourning the deaths of his friends and co-workers, to everything with Kaifun, or showed that Hikaru was growing up and she wasn't.

>>15493184
None of those words mean anything. I think you may be retarded.

>>15493279
Such are the ways of life.

>>15493184
>>15493189
It was a brain bug. Lynn Minmei got popular for the wrong reasons. Minmei from the original series seemed to me to be a sociopath who enjoyed manipulating the men in her life.

However, the viewers saw Idoru culture + mecha and that's what stuck and got played up to 11 in the later series. The cautionary tale about the kind of person who seeks that sort of fame to begin with was lost in the later adaptations.

>>15495454
>Minmei from the original series seemed to me to be a sociopath who enjoyed manipulating the men in her life.
that dumb bitch couldn't even spell sociopath or manipulating even if you gave her a dictionary, a spellchecker, and a week to write it out

>>15493525
Frontier

Yes you can start with it, but you should probably start with SDF anyway.

>>15493184
Just consider Frontier as the closing chapter, it was cool and full of DYRL references.

>>15494720
t. autism

>>15493245
Recruitment tool. If men think she's attracted to pilots they might want to join to make the Jewel of the Macross fall in love with them.

>>15495454

Probably because the cautionary tale was never one about the kind of people who seek out fame in the first place. It was about the cost of fame (that it was hard work, superficial, passing and distanced you from friends) and about trusting the wrong people.

why is sit that in any Macross thread no one ever talks about Plus or Zero?

>>15495620
He's right though. Idols have been a thing since the beginning

>>15495884
Because they're both mixed bags. Unlike II, 7, or Delta which are downright bad, Plus and Zero are hard to categorize.

>>15496207
ok enlighten me with what you think about Plus and Zero
I'm sick of reading the same "delta is shit" over and over

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>>15496211
For starters, Delta is incredibly disappointing because it failed to deliver more of what made the first half competent. Interesting character development, battroid dancing, VAR focused moments, etc. The second half wasted our time on shit that was irrelevant to the finale.

Plus is a mixed bag because despite the animation, designs, and witty dialogue, the characters are static and unsympathetic nearly the entire way through. Romance is as much of a joke as 7, and it's just a mean spirited anime altogether.

Zero suffers the same problems from Plus only not as bad, Edgar and Roy are likeable. Unfortunately the fantastic 2D animation gets replaced with CG which is bound to divide fans although I personally think it has aged very well. Not enough shit gets explained about the Anti-UN or the magic rocks and the ending is one of the worst in Macross.

>>15496237

I really enjoy the combat in Macross Zero personally, and find that of all things the cloud backgrounds stand out for some reason. I really like the CG they used for them, it gives them a presence, a sense of dimension that I don't think I've seen in any other anime. So when Shin, Roy etc. are flying through them they really pop and accentuate the combat. I also lie that, unlike Orange or a lot of other studios the combat and camera isn't too fast and you can actually take it all in and appreciate it because while it moves at a good clip, it's never overwhelming.

I feel like the one person on the site who likes Shin too. He's not an amazing character or anything, but I like that he starts off as an emotionally crippled try-hard who's really just the scared of being hurt but that he quickly opens up when he's put in a relatively peaceful setting for a short while, starting to appreciate Sara, Mao, Edgar, Roy and the pacific islands the show centers on, acting kind of curious, goofy and silly. His character doesn't really have an appreciable arc to complete beyond stopping being a stone-walling dick though, so it tends to leave people cold on him I feel since there's no pay off or definite end point to contrast his earlier behavior.

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>>15495884
What are you talking about, people talk about Plus and Zero all the time.

Its just that it almost always comes down to the consensus of "badass VF's, cool combat sequences, not very good character writing",

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I've said this before but Macross is missing out on having a zent pilot MC fight against his own ancestors while helping them realize there's more to life than fighting. Pic somewhat related. Space elf MC should pilot a VF but I'd like to see the male zent mech suits again.

I think my biggest disappointment in delta, other than the generic "nobody does anything after episode 12" is that after the first episode walkure doesn't do shit in fights.
They go from actively participating in the first fight with drones and those hover boards from AKB0048 to standing on stages singing while the pilots protect them waiting for their song buffs.

>>15496237
>battroid dancing

Fucking hate how they just dropped that.

The GIRI GIRI AIIIII kickstep was the hypest shit.

>>15496331
At this point in my life "not very good character writing" has a whole different meaning for me. Poorly written characters legitmately seem realistic to me because of the fact I grew up and live with two "badly written characters". They are completely unreasonable, ridiculously stupid and hilariously unwise, constantly switch views depending on how they "feel", put their desires above any type of rhythm or reason, even if pleasure lasts 5 seconds they'll cause as much damage as realistically (atleast to hold onto what lets them keep doing this shit over and over) possible, and the best of all? They're both the main examples of women in my life, and after watching them long enough I see parts of them in other women now too.

So I consider a decent amount of "badly written" characters far superior to some real people.

>>15496576
Don't forget how Maki and Reina were built up to be good at VF maintenance, upgrades, and hacking, but didn't do any of it after the first half.

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>>15496576
Weird thing is this seems like a match made in heaven for Freyja. Her people move incredibly fast and are practically acrobats when trained. Yet, Freyja never does any jumping or dodging(like Mikumo in ep 1) during her time as an idol.

>>15496648
>I hate you, mom!

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>>15496648
wew lad

>>15495454
Honestly, Minmay's behavior is far from sociopathic.
She's just a fairly regular teenager; selfish, self-absorbed, has a lot of big dreams, and has little to no grasp of the true consequences to her actions or how they effect others because she hasn't really reached the level of maturity required yet to understand it.
There's no horrific tragedy in her life forcing her to grow the fuck up; her parents are fine, her relatives are fine. She sees the damage the war causes, but it hardly personally affects her in any way at all; in fact it arguably makes her more famous, and beyond that her everyday life continues on like it always had before the Macross launched.

Compare Hikaru, who in effect made a conscious decision to grow up and had to confront the difficulties of both command and loosing people close to you in a way even after he made this decision, and how in effect this made him not the same young man who was obsessed with gaining Minmay's affection like a teenage boy with his first crush.

>>15497422
This. Minmei is just a normal teenage girl. The thing about Hikaru is that Hikaru was forced to grow up and see the world for what it really was. He wanted to settle down and have a family but Minmei did not. Things don't really start to effect Minmei until she's forced to realize that Kaifun is a jackass.

>>15497422
>her parents are fine

I don't think they are.

>>15493581
Show me because I don't see them. List 10 from the past few years, you fucking cant cunt
Let me Clear
Fuck_lazy_art
Fuck_lazy_plot
Fuck_lazy_characterization

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>>15497422

I think it's safe to say that anyone who hates Minmay as a character is an /r9k/ autist who got their white knight fantasy broken in this anime.

>>15497863
Stop moving the goalposts, your first post bitched about the artstyle only.

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>>15493241

>>15496237
>fantastic 2d animation
get that turn of the century digital arsewipe material out of my face, fucking horrendous

>>15496237
Yeah, I miss that break dancing battroid.

>>15493241
she's not even fucking real

eww green hair

>>15497880
Minmay was a lot more cute in the movie. In fact I was actually upset to see her get rejected.

>>15493184
Sheryl is the best idol in Macross.

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>>15499387
Sharon > Sheryl

>Tfw Delta ended with Winderfags not suffering in any consequences while Messer got brutally killed, tons of humans got murdered and they enslaved billions of people and played around with multiple doomsday weapons

REMOVE WIND

REMOVE APPLES

SNIP THE RUNES

>>15499539
I agree. Sharon>everyone.

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>>15499609
I have a feeling this was an attempt to make some sort of Zeon for Macross. The conflict was never resolved so they might be back for the sequel series and probably the next as well.

>>15493184
Isn't all anime weebshit? Though I see your points of it becoming moeshit and idolshiy

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Next VF will be a Tiger.

>>15501824
For non-japs, yes.

>>15504145

The principal cast of SDF is teenagers, not adults. Which is to say Hikaru, Misa, Minmei, Max, Kakizaki.

>>15504178
They're all adults after the time skip.

>>15504315

No, they're not. Misa is 21, but Hikaru, Minmei, Max and Kakizaki are only 18. It's only a two year time skip and they're 16 for the first 27 episodes.

>>15504335
Well, they're teenagers, but also legally adults.

>>15504343

In that case every single Macross has legally adults in it, because most of them are legally allowed to drive and so on and so are obviously legally adults.

>>15504357
Mylene was 14 and allowed to drive cars, pilot VFs, and live by herself. My god, M7 is fucking stupid.

>>15504402

The age of adulthood was legally changed to a younger age because the human race was only a few thousand people and they needed people to start growing up faster. Which isn't actually unprecedented. 14 year olds have led armies and kingdoms while acting like adults. It's only in the last century, and in the first world that the concept of "teenager" has even been a thing. Prior to that when someone reached sexual maturity they were basically an adult and the hardship of their life and circumstances often meant they were acting like one and expected to act like one around that point anyways.

>>15498870
>fictional waifu thread
>she isnt even real

what did he mean by this?

>>15504402
I'd crack that up to being daughter of Max and Millia, plus the 7th Fleet having different regulations than what they had on Earth.

It could be left to the individual fleets as the Frontier fleet doesn't appear to be the same as the 7th or vice versa.

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>>15493184
Anime is Japanese.

If you don't like what the Japanese like why are you watching anime you idiot?

>I'm not a weeb I just watch Japanese cartoons IRONICALLY

>I only like manly Japanese cartoons for grown ups like Berserk

Seriously go watch something else OP if you don't like it.

>>15504503
Because the only good anime copies objectively superior Western culture, like your example of Berserk

>>15496201
Idol culture in general has gone off the deep end since the late-00's/early-10's, Macross simply got carried along with it. The people saying "Macross had idols all along" are completely missing the point that idol waifushit has been turned up to a level past the point of no return.

>>15504575
>point of no return
Macross has been there since the beginning because idols and music are a staple in the franchise. It's also what keeps it relevant since idols(or at the very least genki girls) and music attract new fans. Those who think idols or music are a mistake should just wait for that live action Robotech movie.

>>15504561
These days its western television that tends to copy anime. Western television sucks ass these days unless it does this.

>>15504623
You mean animation in particular right? Because Western TV in general is pretty much at it's all time peak quality-wise. And even though I don't like almost any of the new shows these days, I have to admit that western animation is actually in great shape these days.

>>15504675
What shows are any good these days? I never watch live action shit unless it's Walking Dead and even that has gotten boring.

>>15504675
>Western TV in general is pretty much at it's all time peak quality-wise
You base this off of what?

>western animation is actually in great shape these days
I really want to know what you base this off of, especially because of flash.

>>15504698
I'm not much into live action shit either so I'm the wrong person to ask that, but I can tell that the selection of quality shows is much larger these days, mostly because now shows are shorter have a clear storyline instead of the old style of having multiple seasons of a plot that goes nowhere until the network decides to cancel it. As for what I watched well I thought that Daredevil, Stranger Things and Black Mirror were all really, really good. Also I've heard good things about Westworld and True Detective but haven't watched them yet. As for animation, well, I guess the new Samurai jack is pretty good.

>>15504709
How the hell is western animation in great shape if literally the only good cartoon worth a damn is Samurai Jack, which heavily references Jap culture.

>>15496237
>and it's just a mean spirited anime altogether.

What the fuck does this mean? Please elaborate.

>>15504742
I wasn't talking about quality, stuff like Rick and Morty, Steven's Universe or whatever else is popular these days have brought a larger popularity and relevance to western animation than what it's had for the past 7-10 years. You may not like those shows but the industry is indeed growing.

>>15504757
And yet it's still nowhere near what it was in decades prior. You don't call someone who just barely survived a stroke "healthy"

>>15504829
Well sure but it is on an upswing.

>>15504757
Wait, we're talking about popularity and not actual quality here?

>>15504872
In what way, even?

>>15493189
>Macross was always idolshit,
Minmay's thing was a subplot, and not a very important one. Music was used to win a single battle, and then only it's shock value. The love triangle was mostly written in a filler episode towards the end when they needed more episodes. Later shows entirely focused on these small elements that weren't even very important to the original.

You can't say 'Macross was always Idolshit' when you could edit the show to remove that stuff it it'd be less than two full episodes shorter.

>>15505057

> Minmay's thing was a subplot, and not a very important one

Minmay's subplot runs through the entire show and removing it would cut the show down by something more like 10/15 episodes, not 2. She has more screen time than any other character besides Hikaru most likely. Cutting her would also make much of the show's climax in episode 27 either not make sense or just plain impossible, depending on how you cut it, since Hikaru's idea to use Minmay's singing to distract the enemy is pretty central to the UN Spacy winning.

>>15504745
Everyone is a fucking dick. There's literally no reason to care about anyone. We're just in it for the planes.

>>15505212
Chief Millard did NOTHING wrong.

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>>15504561
Western culture? Movies: capeshit.
Music: American niggers.

I'm not too impressed with Western popular culture frankly.

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>>15505057
Removing idol from SDF Macross would mean removing Minmay. One of the principal characters.

How would this work exactly?

>>15505579
Not him, but that's actually a good point.

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>>15493184
Because not enough giantesses. The amount of giantesses per episode is only decreasing with each season, and that is terrible.

>>15509612
I agree.
MORE MELTRANDI CUTIES
PLEASE KAWAMORI

>>15494637
I wish we had an answer (backed by data) for how the anime industry ended up this way. Sure there are still really great anime being produced but you're lucky if you find one for every two seasons that comes out. Not to mentioned that they easily get buried and forgotten about in favor of the newest formulaic moe harem shit or whatever. It's getting so bad that they're starting to go full force into the reboot, sequal, prequal shit that Hollywood is currently in right now. I wouldn't be surprised if I see Cowboy Bebop, Trigon, and Wing rebooted within the next two years.

>>15493423
where do these people come from and why do they always end up here?

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>>15509702
No idea. I do agree that the writing in shows has regressed but there's a ton of old shows to watch.

People who don't like cute girls doing cute things shouldn't watch anime at all though.

>>15509644

There's no data that one can easily point to, but part of the problem at least is simply down to the wages for animators. The problem being that they're absolute shit and are getting worse, to the point that many animators have to live with their parents in to their 20s or even 30s because they make so little nowadays, which obviously doesn't give a great standard of living. As such, the only people with the fortitude to last it out are hardcare fans of animation, people who end up only animating what they like instead of what's interesting or good because passion is the only thing fueling them by that point.

There's also the problem that many skilled animators, directors etc. in the industry are growing older and even retiring, with no-one to really pass their skills on to given the shrinking pool of talent. Even when they do pass their skills on, the people they pass them on to often simply retire from the industry themselves given the better wages of almost any other job, meaning their skills leave anyway.

Couple that with the fact that the economic crash in the 90s left the industry pushing out cheaper productions, while animation demands grew and more anime need to be produced and you basically end up with a lot of shovelware (or the animation equivalent) produced on the cheap by staff with less talent to meet demand. Sturgeon's law still applies, and really always did, but it's harder to find that good 5% or whatever since there's more stuff to sift through.

>>15493196
NO!!!!!!! She's too pure!!!!!

>>15493189
>Guessing bait, but idc
The fact that he calls Japanese media weebshit is a giveaway. How the fuck can Japs be wannabe Japs? Weebshit would be something that tries to emulate Jap media.

>>15509813
I'm sure animation production and wages have something to do with it, but it doesn't explain why everything is cutesy anime girls playing roles in the same old repetitive, simplistic plot architecture.

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People like OP baffle me.

It's like hating black people and going to a basketball game.

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>>15509644
>>15509813
>>15509900
its hard to believe someone actually went through all this trouble to simply spout some dumb normalfag memes about anime.

>>15509786
Cute girls is one thing, yurishit is another. If Macross or Gundam resorted to yurishit, you better fucking prepare yourself, fag.