How does /m/ rank the old works of authors such as Nagai, Tezuka,

>>15371985
>actually including Lazy's name in front of these legends
Kill yourself.

Better question, why does /m/ hate everything made before 2002 now?

>>15371985
Osamu Tezuka is responsible for horrible work conditions almost all mangaka have to suffer under, because people took a look at his workaholic work scheduled and decided "this will be the industry standard - FOREVER".

That being said there is a reason why he is considered the father of modern manga. Clearly stands a head above the others and Ishinomori is second.

>>15371985
I feel they each are notable for fairly different reasons. Tezuka created modern manga, introducing a world where cartoons could express stories and characters. He came up with many ideas of the future and stories of intrigue.

Nagai is notable for just how god damn prolific he is and that photo person who was the level of work horse that Tezuka was by nature. Nagai I feel is the most creative but is sloppier in the fields of art and story telling. He is uncle to the mecha genre and kinda the father of pulpy manga due to his preference for exploitative and sometimes schlocky media. I think his creativity and success comes from the fact he is naturally childish and free spirited, making him just a wealth of resources for creative eye catching ideas.

Ishinomori is probably in my opinion the best writer and artist, but he lived too deep in Tezuka's shadow and tried to imitate him too much. Despite being better at both I feel Tezuka ended up with better stuff because Tezuka started focused on doing his thing. If Ishinomori wasn't do preoccupied with imitating his mentor and didn't try to do a million things and leaving everything up in the air, he probably would be an even bigger name then he ended up being.

Matsumoto had a way of making what he wrote into an opera. He kinda has an epic quality to his storytelling. If I had to call any of them a romantic it's him.

This is my take at least.

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>>15371985
From those that you mentioned, Tezuka comes first and Ishinomori second, close behind. Both did some interesting stuff, not only story wise, but also in the paneling. They are always trying some new and creative panels, like pic related. They had their problems too, in my opinion: like, the majority of Tezuka tentatives into adult mangas fare from mild to bad. They had too bizarre concepts mixed with some very childish stuff, like the police plan in the final of MW, from the top of my head, just as a example. In Ishinomori case, aside from some of his own world views that he always thrown into his story no matter what, with mixed results, I personally never liked the majority of his endings. Its somehow dificult to explain, but they generally feel kind of vague. Robot Keiji and Ryuu no Michi are examples of what I'm trying to say.

Aside from Mazinger Z, I never read much of Nagai mangas, they never catched my interest, but I liked Mazinger. I respect Matsumoto, and admit that his mangas have their charm, but personally I found their paneling incredible confuse. Is not that is difficult to follow, but it keeps jumping from place to place without concern and he reuse alot some styles of paneling.

Not mentioned here is Mitsuteru Yokoyama; people can say that his style is dry and bland, but it helps in making those glorious long historical mangas, which nobody else would do. Think it like a BBC historical novel.

Honorable mentions would go to Takao Saito, Shigeru Mizuki, Kaoru Shintani, YAS, Kazuhiko Shimamoto and Keiko Takemiya, in no particular order. In Shintani case, his shoujo character style can discourage some readers, but boy, that man know how to draw some good air combat.

Tezuka and Yokoyama are probably the two most important mangaka ever and were massive influences on anime, too. Anyone who says is Ishinomori is second to Tezuka really needs to stop posting.

Ishinomori is horribly overrated.

1- Ishinomori
2- Yokoyama
3- Nagai
4- Tezuka
5- Matsumoto

>>15372243
>YAS

What manga did he even have before The Origin?

>>15372425
A lot. But I found them kinda boring.

>>15372425
>>15372425 Arion, the two Venus Wars, that one manga about Kurdish guerrillas in Turkey, Joan, Jesus, Waga nawa Nero, Alexandros, and some other mangas that I doubt that we will ever get a translation.

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>>15371985
Depends which era of their work we're talking about. I'll answer under good faith that you're not a shitposter.

Tezuka: His 50's and 60's stuff is really cute and I really like the shoujo version of Hi no Tori. His 70's stuff is overly grim and the stories often feel like a giant waste of time. His life's work, Hi no Tori is a mixed bag. The last volume was ambitious but fell flat. The best thing he's done is the chapter where a team of astronauts are in pods floating in space with a mysterious pod following them. Is also known for being a giant prick to artists that were better than him like Kitaro. His title of "God" also comes from him being jealous of Ishinomori's popularity.

Nagai: 70's and 80's are his strongest eras. Devilman, God Mazinger, Susanoo, and Violence Jack are great fun.

Ishinomori: I liked Sabu to Ichi a lot. Most of his other stuff is sentai stuff which feels quite weak. Also an annoying habit of introducing characters and shoving them to the side or replacing them with exact clones.

Matsumoto: Really good at creating comedic situations and space operas. Galaxy Express and it's sequel are really good. Gun Frontier is hilarious, Queen Emeraldas is a fun manga. Doesn't care much for continuity as much as he does for creating new stories featuring the same characters. Has a "ring of time" to say that all versions of his characters are the same. Also a slightly annoying habit of repeating himself in manga he's written in recent years.

You didn't include Yokoyama but I'll share my thoughts on him: Some of the best mecha design and super quick pacing. Not much interest in his historical work which is mostly what gets translated. Paneling seems to have gotten overly simple during the 70's compared to things like Giant Robo.

Yokoyama, Leiji, and Nagai are my favorites. Sabu to Ichi's manga and anime are some of the best I've read/watched though.

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>>15371985
Miyazaki wipes the floor with all of them.

>>15372495
Tiny mistake, I meant
>The author of Kitaro

Can't find the post about it, but it's a good read.

Ishinomori post here: http://forestofstone.tumblr.com/post/125974267909/shotaro-ishinomori-the-king-of-manga

I think he was jealous of them both.

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Tezuka was a pathetic, megalomaniac try-hard. He got famous by ripping off and doing a pretty bad job at emulating Disney comics artists like Floyd Gottfredson and Carl Barks (not because of Uncle Scrooge like /a/ and tumblr like to bullshit about, more like Donald Duck Finds Pirate Gold). Every little panel of New Treasure Island was taken from Disney and other American comics. Tezuka's early works are the only ones that matter for the history of manga. People like Yokoyama, Ishinomori and Nagai were influenced by his early stuff like New Treasure Island, Lost World and Metropolis, not shit like Black Jack and Phoenix (there's plenty of good stuff there, but the series as a whole is pretty flawed). Western comic readers love some edge in their comics, so I can see why Tezuka adult comics got a following in the US, but it doesn't change the fact they're all forced, insincere and shallow as hell.

He was also a borderline pathological liar. Always claiming he came up with ideas he obviously took from other people. He claims to have come up with story-focused manga all by himself and never admitted the influence of Mickey Outwits the Phantom Blot and Donald Duck Finds Pirate Gold, even if it's completely obvious he copied panels from those comics. He said he came up himself with the iconic Astro Boy pose flying with the hand up in the air and Superman started doing it after him, but he got that from Mighty Mouse. He said he came up with the Three Laws of Robotics long before Asimov, but he was 5 years old when Asimov first published them. In one of his early there's a twist identical to a Robert A. Heinlein novel. He said he had read the Heinlein novel before, but had the idea long before that. He also insulted the work of Shigeru Mizuki, Satoru Ozawa, Takao Saito, Katsuhiro Otomo and many, many others, just out of pure jealously. He had such a big fat ego he needed to have people constantly praising himself if anyone else got the attention away from him.

>>15372545
Did you get tired of people ignoring you on /co/

>>15372574
I've never been there.

>>15372545
I own Swallowing the Earth, Ayako, and the one about the girl who steals things and gets away with everything. You can really tell he was frustrated with his fading popularity to write such bitter works with very little meaning.

I like Astro boy and all that stuff but it really hurts to see things like those latter works praised over good things like Dororo (which he never finished)

In his Lost World manga, he claims he never actually saw Lost World before writing it and only used the title. I think he said the same for Metropolis. Either way, I find them charming and cute.

DMP seems to just be churning out random kickstarters of unknown manga of his. I wish they'd give the same treatment to other authors.

>>15372495
>Most of his other stuff is sentai stuff

Most of his translated and scanlated works, at least. Europe got way more historical manga he made like Sabu and Ichi, Hokusai, Musashi Miyamoto and Kuzuryu. Some of his erotic and science fiction manga like Ryu and Eros X Sf were also released there. Only recently was Kamen Rider brought over. It's a lot like Mizuki, where they first brought his more mature autobiographical/war stories to Europe, and only then did they bring over his flagship horror/comedy series like Kitaro and Kappa no Sanpei afterwards. The US seems to be following that pattern, at least for Mizuki.

>>15372016
We don't it's just damn near impossible now because we got a few incredibly dedicated shitposters who have made it their life mission to make any actual discussion on /m/ a nightmare.

>>15372629
We're getting volumes of Kitaro at least. Seems like they're just collected stories and not all of them which is a shame.

I like Ryu, I should go back and finish it but a lot of things with a similar setting have ended on a disappointing note.

>>15372641
I think Ishimori Pro did a bad move bringing the superhero stuff over other more adult-oriented Ishinomori titles in the US. They also suffered from poor translation and editing, but that doesn't really matter since those series are simple reads. I like them just fine, but they were mostly commissioned works for Toei's shows.

The thing about Ishinomori is that he mentioned having this sense of duty towards the industry in which he would never refuse any work he was offered.

http://www.tcj.com/saito-takao-and-the-%e2%80%9cgekiga-factory%e2%80%9d/

Unlike Tezuka, he never came to dislike anything he ever created, but it's true a few series would get way more of his attention than others. And there's a lot of misconceptions regarding Ishinomori and his manga work.

For example, most people think his longest and most successful series was Cyborg 009, but it was actually Hotel, which was running non-stop for nearly 2 decades and ended with over 40 volumes (it only stopped because Ishinomori passed away during its run). It also got adapted into a television drama which lasted for a decade and had consistent ratings over 20%. This is way more than any Kamen Rider series ever got on constant basis. Hotel was a hit with adult readers, it had almost no appeal to otaku or any sort of merchandising attached to it.

It's the same as Mizuki's war stories, they got a lot of praise, but in Japan they're not usually quoted when someone talks about Mizuki. There's a huge distinction between series that would be eternal money-makers like Kitaro and Kamen Rider and other works which got critical acclaim but are not recognized as a brand. Sabu and Ichi was adapted into an anime, two television series and TV specials which keep being released to this day. But no one talks about them, they think the only Ishinomori's TV works are Sentai and Rider.

>>15372510
How so? His paneling is terrible, his characters always go off-model, and worst of all he crams in so much dialogue and exposition all over every panel that almost every page feels claustrophobic.

Nausicaa does a lot of things well, but it is more of a storyboard than a manga.

>>15372739
I saw on onesnowshoe's site that they're working on the first Hotel volume. I have no clue what the progress on that is but maybe it will spur some other group on it since they'll be stopping after that, apparently.

>>15372016
>why does /m/ hate everything
ftfy

>>15373049
Don't say that, we came this far with almost no shitposting. But then the thread pretty much died. This is the curse of /m/.

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>>15372773
>but it is more of a storyboard than a manga

kys

>>15373159
He's right, though. And that doesn't even look all that great.

>>15372773
>his characters always go off-model
>implying that's a negative
Consider growing some taste next time you want to share your hot opinions.

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>>15373173
>>his characters always go off-model
>>implying that's a negative

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>>15372118
>sloppier in the fields of art
Maybe in the 70s, but some of the shit that Nagai draws today are breathtaking.

For example Nagai's historical manga like Maeda Toshie and Date Masamune look pretty good.

Then you have works like Dante Shinkyoku, Devilman Lady, Shin Violence Jack. Sometimes his characters look weird, but everything else like th monsters and backgrounds are well drawn and detailed.

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>>15373321

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Unlike some other shounen authors that I know, Nagai didn't stay in his comfort zone. He really tried to modernise his artwork.

I think it paid off.

>>15372118
>Nagai is notable for just how god damn prolific he is
I'm pretty sure Ishinomori beats him to that. He has the world record for most comics published so I have no idea why you're praising Nagai for that alone.

>>15373321
>>15373330
>>15373333
These are looking a lot like Ishikawa.

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>>15373342
This work was released in 2008 though and Ishikawa died in 2006.

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Speaking of Ken Ishikawa, OP didn't mention him.

Ishikawa was the best at cosmic horror /m/.

>>15373342
How?
Maybe earlier in their career they had a more similar artstyle but modern Nagai and modern (well, "modern" I guess, since he died and whatnot) had vastly different composition.
Or do you just mean the designs in general as opposed to purely the artstyle?

>>15373353
Ishikawa really doesn't count. In the 70s he was Nagai's righthand man with very few notable works. He made his best in the late 80s and 90s. Didn't have much impact in manga as a whole. Not saying he's not great or anything, but he's not really up there with the others.

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Anyone has more art to share? I'm only posting from Nagai and Ishikawa. How does late Tezuka and Ishinomori look?

I read all of what's available for Cyborg 009 but I have yet to see any of Ishi's late manga. The original Cyborg 009 had typical 60s art.

And to be frank, I'm not all that familiar with Tezuka and only read and watched a few things by him like Dororo.

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>>15373360
What about his Makai Tensho? The guy who directed Yakuza Weapon praised it and called it the best version of Makai Tensho so far.

I'd like to actually read Gokudou Heiki one day too. The manga looks absolutely bonkers, just like the movie.

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>>15373363
Ryu no Michi was the midway point for Ishinomori. It came out right at 1969, so it's a point of transition from the simple art from the 60s compared to later style from the 70s. Characters got taller and skinnier and sometimes would show realistic features like nostrils, backgrounds got way more detailed.

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>>15373353
Does anyone else think he did a lot of the battle scenes in God Mazinger?

>>15373363
Sure. Here's Yokoyama

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>>15373369
This is Ishinomori's mid-70s style. Actually, one of them. He would sometimes vary his style a lot. This one was a little more cartoony and dynamic, but if you compare to something like Sabu and Ichi or Kamen Rider, they look widely different. He would often change the style to better fit the tone of a different series.

>>15373371
Cool. I only read his Three Kingdoms manga. I was wondering more about his late art. Yokoyama in a BIG FIRE in 2004.

>>15373374
died in a BIG FIRE*

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Someone picked up Tales of Time Gone By, an anthology science fiction manga by Matsumoto. First chapter was a fun read.

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>>15373363
Someone shared this in a chat I lurk in a while back. It's from Gringo which was one of the works Tezuka left incomplete after his death.

>>15373371
>Does anyone else think he did a lot of the battle scenes in God Mazinger?
Don't know. Ishikawa wasn't Nagai's only assistant.

There was also guys like Mitsuru Hiruta, Gosaku Ota and Shinobu Kaze.

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>>15373379

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>>15373372
Both Arashi and Sabu and Ichi used the jidaigeki style, which is common in all his historical works. Which means it never get way too wildly cartoony like the previous pages, it keeps this consistent gritty feel, even if his art style is still very recognizable.

>>15373378
>gringo
Kinda makes you think.

Since I'm talking about Nagai's assistants, do you guys know Tatsuhiko Dan?

Apparently he had an anime ova based one of his works directed by Satoshi Dezaki.

http://cartoonresearch.com/index.php/forgotten-anime-60-college-supergirls-1991/

I just found out about that the other day.

>>15373389
Subbed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F0OSWN8xvM

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>>15373382
This is kind of a transition between Ishinomori's 70s to 80s style. It's hard finding good samples because his paneling started to get really wild by this period. So I will post a couple of pages of each.

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>>15373412

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>>15373415

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>>15373417

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>>15373420
In the 80s Ishinomori was doing mostly adult comics. The main difference is that he was varying the character designs a lot more and using more panels per page.

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>>15373445
Some samples from the mid 80s run of Cyborg 009.

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>>15373460

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>>15373464

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>>15373465

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>>15373471

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>>15373473

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>>15373371
His art-style is obviously clear in God Mazinger both in battles and outside of it. I mentioned that before and people thought I was trying to take credit away from Nagai even though I just mentioned it. Talk about insecurity.

>>15373412
>>15373415
>>15373417
>>15373420
>>15373445
Looks pretty good. The only bad thing is the lack of panelling like Matsumoto at times. Though I've never read any work in that style so it could be good like that for all I know.

>>15373487
Yeah, the shifts in art styles in it is pretty obvious. I did the same when the first chapter came out and got the same response. Oh well.

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>>15373475
And finally, this is from the last Sabu and Ichi story, published only one year before Ishinomori passed away. So it's the most recent samples I could find. He was long past his peak, having health problems and losing his sight. But still as active as ever.

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>>15373516

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>>15373520

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>>15373521

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>>15373525

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>>15373528

>>15373487
you'll have to prove it.

Nagai has other assistants, not just Ishikawa.

Not gonna give the retard a (You) but saying Tezuka claimed to have created the one arm flying pose is so full of shit. He not only openly admitted that it was based on Mighty Mouse he admitted that series was a big inspiration to him for Astro Boy. For fucks sake he named him Mighty Atom after Mighty Mouse. Also those two covers look nothing alike aside from characters finding treasure, which isn't exactly a concept anyone created in the past 100 years.

>>15373321
I meant specifically 70s, I think Nagai has greatly improved as an artist over the years but he has also always been excellent in creating nonhuman designs. While his robots were always fun to look at, his more monstrous designs and beast like art is where his art always shined. Nagai only has the issue that he seems to be very impressionable and tries to copy modern art styles/trends too closely and it affects his art, like some of the infamously horrible faces/anatomy in Devilman Lady and other works of that period. In recent years he seems to be finally embracing his style more and his art is much better for it.

>>15373334
I didn't know that actually. My knowledge in 70s writers is still fairly shallow with Nagai and to a degree Tezuka being the only ones I know a fair bit about. I feel like Nagai just finished more of his stuff and he made a lot of hits due to his more pulpy style, but I could be wrong. I always felt Ishinomori seemed to try to do too much and also tried to be Tezuka which held his work back.

>>15373353
As much as I love Ishikawa and Getter especially, he's not as big a name as these guys and certainly not in perspective of a 70s creator.

>>15372510
That entire page looks like ass. Like Nagano, he's obviously not a mangaka by profession.

>>15373342
It looks nothing like Ishikawa's work.

>>15373371
>>15373379
>>15373487
Ishikawa had nothing to do with God Mazinger and wasn't even part of Dynamic Pro during that time period. None of the art in God Mazinger even remotely resembles Ishikawa's art. No one wants to discuss it with you because it's fucking stupid and you won't take no for an answer.

>>15373743
You didn't have to quote me. I'm not the one saying God Mazinger was done by Ishikawa.

Either way, they were wrong and it's good for you to call them out on it.

That's what they get for insisting it's by Ishikawa.

>>15373487
That's because you're wrong.

>>15373208
That's an inbetween that's only briefly onscreen so you're proving his point, you're a meming moron

It's true that Miyazaki's calling is not manga though

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>>15373382
>Which means it never get way too wildly cartoony like the previous pages, it keeps this consistent gritty feel
Really now?

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>>15374370
This is cartoonier than most of Tezuka's art.

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>>15373363
>The original Cyborg 009 had typical 60s art.
How? I won't pretend I've read a fuckton of early to mid 60s manga but it was pretty different from Yokoyama and Tezuka's art.

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>>15374375
Well okay, not 'cartoonier' as much as... looser? Most of Tezuka's art that I've seen beyond Swallowing the Earth had more conservative use of lines.

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>>15373743
>None of the art in God Mazinger even remotely resembles Ishikawa's art
That's where you're wrong. I don't get why you people are so in denial about this. I'm not saying it was done by him or anything, but just that he may have drew or helped with it. Just look at the art for crying out loud. It does strongly resemble his art.

But, maybe I'm wrong and it was done by somebody else who just mimicked his style. We really don't know.

Besides, Ishikawa comes off as super humble that he may have not even asked to have his name put on it.

>>15373491
That's also one of the things you'll come to realise when reading God Mazinger because it constantly switches between Nagai, Ishikawa-like art and a mixture of both as if Nagai drew people at times and somebody else drew the rest.

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>>15372545
>Tezuka was a pathetic, megalomaniac try-hard. He got famous by ripping off and doing a pretty bad job at emulating Disney comics artists like Floyd Gottfredson and Carl Barks (not because of Uncle Scrooge like /a/ and tumblr like to bullshit about, more like Donald Duck Finds Pirate Gold). Every little panel of New Treasure Island was taken from Disney and other American comics.
Congrats, you read that misinformed and overly wordy The Comics Journal piece.

New Treasure Island was literally a small child's adventure fantasy up until the very end, so unlike a ton of the kids' manga that came out around that time which really was shameless ripoffs of western works, it was actually made perfect thematic sense for that story to contain so many things you found in cartoons because the whole story was nonsense pieced together by a little boy from fiction he consumed. Also, the TCJ piece vastly overstated the "ripoff" angle; a lot of his "oh my god LOOK guys these look EXACTLY THE SAME!!!" comments were colossal exaggerations.

For example, if you compare the Mickey short where Mickey is floating on a raft and a shark attacks to the New Treasure Island scene inspired by it, the latter is very different in tone. The former is 100% comical and the latter is "what if this cartoony scene was more serious and realistic and threatening".

The guy also didn't understand Japanese and couldn't actually read it which is likely why he missed the thematic justification for its pastiche nature.
>>15374408
I agree with you that art looks extremely Ishikawa-like. Even Nagai's own later pieces that feel Ishikawa influenced don't scream "Ishikawa" that hard.
>Besides, Ishikawa comes off as super humble that he may have not even asked to have his name put on it.
Ishikawa clearly drew an entire arc of the Grendizer manga but I don't think it was documented anywhere. It just... really, really obviously is his work; it looks exactly like the Getter manga.

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>>15374421
See, these are EXACTLY the same panels! It doesn't matter that the poses and paneling are very different. This one Donald comic patented the concept of a character getting hit by coconuts from a tree by another character.

>>15374421
>Ishikawa clearly drew an entire arc of the Grendizer manga
which one

>>15374408
If he wasn't part of dp at the time, he could not have done it. You're wrong. Just stop.

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>>15374432
For the record I'm not saying he wasn't obviously inspired by this Disney story; it's clear as day he read it. What I am saying is that if the TCJ writer was actually able to read the comic he would've understood that this doesn't even matter because the two stories are very thematically different.

I just read Mars. What a shitty ending.

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>>15374435
I don't remember, let me download it and post scans.
>>15374438
>>15372545
Also: I will admit I was disappointed at him saying he invented the laws of robotics and other shit, but I honestly don't know if they were conscious lies or if he was just too smug to consider subconscious influence. I've ended up drawing shit I thought was my idea all along only to later realize "oh fuck, I just copied this other thing" so I know that's a thing that happens and not just an excuse for stealing shit.

He was mean to Otomo but he was still fundamentally right in his comment that you should wait before calling someone a manga god. Tezuka started creating iconic works in the 40s all the way to Black Jack - which ended in the 80s. 4 decades of creating memorable characters and universes that went down in manga & anime history. Otomo, while still amazing, doesn't have nearly the same legacy.

Anime and manga to this day still uses the same facial construction Tezuka did.

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>>15372545
Oh and lastly
>People like Yokoyama, Ishinomori and Nagai were influenced by his early stuff like New Treasure Island, Lost World and Metropolis, not shit like Black Jack and Phoenix
Nagai is a Black Jack fan, and there's some paneling in that feels pretty clearly inspired by Ode to Kirihito. Kirihito perfectly embodies the 'adult Tezuka' work that people say no manga creator ever took influence from and everyone hated.

>>15373734
>Like Nagano, he's obviously not a mangaka by profession.

Nagano is a better mangaka than Miyazaki, mainly because he understands how to use +/- space and knew how to put emphasis on certain characters or objects per panel instead of having everything mesh onto one page. The paneling and flow is often quite simple, but it works.

They both have the problem of using too many panels on one page though (more of a problem for Miyazaki), but from what I understand that has more to do with the fact that both their manga are printed on extra-large magazine-size paper.

>>15374493
>there's some paneling in
in ?

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>>15374498
in Devilman, I'm sorry

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>>15374513
Go ahead and own me if you remember some paneling from stuff like Lost World that was this loose cuz I sure as heck don't

I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea where to put Ishinomori, because outside of his manga, the first 3 sentai shows, and most of the showa KR, I actually don't know how much input he had on works attributed to him.

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>>15374515
From what I remember, there was some cool paneling here and there in Tezuka's really old work but generally it was far more basic. You can see his paneling evolve a lot if you read Astro Boy

Phoenix was also part of what Urasawa at least seems to consider Tezuka's golden age in terms of artwork so I'd be surprised if it didn't inspire people like Nagai, especially given he was still keeping up with Tezuka's work as late as Black Jack.

>>15372495
>The best thing he's done is the chapter where a team of astronauts are in pods floating in space with a mysterious pod following them.

I still kinda prefer the chapter about the end of humanity with the immortal man trying his best to give us another chance.

>>15373353
What purpose would a single breast have in having more than one nipple?

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>>15373159
Dude that looks like really early Tezuka paneling. Just stiff rectangular panels on top of each other.

Nausicaa is a good manga but Miyazaki is nowhere near being a god of manga.
>>15373372
Ishinomori was insanely versatile. Banchou Wakusei was done 3 years after Henshin Ninja. Henshin Ninja is far more realistic while Banchou Wakusei is incredibly cartoony.

Then you have Fantasy World Jun which is full of style switches. Compare realistic, atmospheric pencil-shaded stuff to the super flat cartoony abstract moments.

>>15374538
Squirting more milk per second. This way the more opponents will be unable to fight because of their boners.

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>>15374542
I don't think that's how mammary glands work.

>>15374547
That's fine the enemy doesn't know that.

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>>15374528
I've not finished Phoenix yet but V2 aloen is a work of sheer fucking genius. The religious theme is amazing, my favorite moments being the climax where the MC becomes "God" and the whole idea of different groups of people building "perfectly logical" robots which were ultimately humanely flawed because their "logic" was based on cultural prejudices. It's a fucking amazingly creative critique of religion.

I also love the whole theme of escapism and how it was handled.

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>>15374553
You know that South Park episode about how a "post-religious" society would still have pointless conflict? Tezuka did that shit in the 60s, making the point that humanity will always find some kind of religion surrogate to be cunts over.

>>15374553
>>15374558
Took me a second to realize that this is printed left to right.

>>15374553
>I've not finished Phoenix

Yeah don't feel like you need to rush there. Even Jared Cook and Frederick Schodt, who translated the manga in its entirety and fought for it to get published in English for 30 years, admit that the series really isn't worth reading after Resurrection.

>>15372608
I liked Swallowing the Earth. The whole theme about greed that Tezuka wanted to be the focus didn't really work but I feel it worked better as a commentary on female oppression and radical reactions to it.

It also had the most Milt Gross-inspired super wacky Tezuka art I've seen. The way the protagonist is drawn also makes me think he got inspired by Monkey Punch.

Human Insects had some cool moments but was overall stupid and pointless and ended before it could have a message beyond "complete freedom and complete subservience are both self destructive"

I've not read Ayako and have no interest.

>>15374570
I dunno about Cook but Schodt is a stupid cunt who knows nothing about manga as a medium and tries to make up for it with historical knowledge... even though he doesn't even know who General Custer was.

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>>15374587
Truly one of the greatest minds of our time

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>>15374595
Another utterly retarded translation

I know westerners don't know who Fujio Akatsuka is but fucking hell at least write "gag manga style" or something.

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I can't pretend I've read enough of their work to judge them and unless you've read raws, I doubt most people on /m/ have. Not even Kimba is translated and that's one of Tezuka's most iconic works. But that aside:

Ishinomori feels like the most high-caliber artist of the bunch in terms of versatility and drawing skill but Tezuka beats him in terms of being hugely iconic.

Nagai is also amazingly iconic. Practically every beastly demonic animal, creature or mecha in anime & manga is Nagai style.

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>>15374609

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>>15374611
And not even just the eyes. The proportions of the Evas are clearly Devilman-like.

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>>15374616
Tora's face with the eyes and warrior-like markings are also Nagai as fuck.

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>>15374618
Noroi is practically Mao Dante as a weasel

>>15374623
>the group subbing that show is dead
I'm still annoyed and disappointed.

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>>15374623
Nagai eyes again.

>>15372243
If you care about paneling absolutely read more Nagai stuff like Devilman, Violence Jack and Mao Dante.

Look at how clever this is.

>>15374627
Incidentally, isn't the end of the Golden Age arc basically Devilman's finale, but lewder?

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>>15374633
Forgot pic

Oh yeah, it's good but don't take Mao Dante seriously. Nagai seems like he just made it as a Kaiju self-insert fantasy by the way he talked about it (as opposed to Devilman's more serious themes) and the out-of-nowhere exposition about God and Sodom & Gomorrah is impossible to not laugh at. Not even because it was silly but because it came out of nowhere. Ishikawa's Majuu Sensen was just about equally silly but it was coated in its religious insanity from the get-go in such a way that made perfect sense in a really weird way.

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>>15374634
Hmmmmm there was clear atmospheric inspiration and Guts & Griffith are clearly massively inspired by Ryo & Akira but thematically I dunno if I'd say they're really the same.

This line is fucking word for word from Violence Jack though.

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>>15374655
Except in Jack it was about a knife instead of a sword, which makes it infinitely more badass.

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>>15374435
This looks a lot like Ishikawa art.

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>>15374699
Duke's buff man anatomy here looks more Ishikawa than Nagai

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>>15374702
Compare to how Nagai drew his body

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>>15374706
extremely Ishikawa expression

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>>15374708
I recall some mecha scenes from Getter V1 being inked the same as panel 1 here this

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>>15374710
I'm not sure how to word it, maybe it's confirmation bias given the other examples, but this feels more like the kind of cartoony art Ishikawa would draw.

>>15374714
>>15374710
>>15374708
>>15374706
>>15374702
>>15374699
Why is it so badly levelled?

>Busterbeam
Well, it was good while it lasted. Now It's time to leave the thread and never come back. It was nice talking to you guys.

>>15374408
People denying that it doesn't look like his art clearly never read any Getter Robo. You can also see how massively the art style changes once the scene switches to a bunch of girls in a lake. The dinosaurs and people look completely different and the details are different. It might not be ishikawa, but it's certainly not Nagai doing those pages.

>He wasn't part of Dynamic Pro
Doesn't really stop a friend from doing work for another friend.

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>>15374528
That was good too, the earlier stuff tended to be way better than the latter stuff. The chapter with the lady monk was really good though.

>>15374515
I hate this manga. So much needless death done is silly ways. So many scenes that can only be described as being done for shock value. Baby being eaten for snake, lady being cooked into a chicken nugget, and finding a baby only for it to die pages later

>>15374553
Am I the only one who hates Rock as a villain? He usually has like no motive other than being a giant asshole and looking "cool".

>>15374576
Ayako starts really strong but by the very end he trips and falls and the ending feels really forced. Like, the characters just suddenly become retards to create the ending.

>>15374609
I feel like he has a slight problem with monsters /animals being in this realistic style while the characters themselves are cartoony and have club feet. I mean, I guess it kind of works but it can be jarring.

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>>15374699
That chapter was by Ken Ishikawa, Getter Robo Bible has an entry on that which lists him as the mangaka for that specific story.

>>15374820
But it's not?

>>15374836
There's no point in speculation without proof, honestly. Ishikawa might have been involved, but it'd be better to find a source for that claim.

>>15374941
Thanks for the info, now I know it is in fact catalogued somewhere.

If it's not him doing that God Mazinger page then it's some unnamed Dynamic Pro artist who draws exactly like him and is secretly some kind of genius at imitating other people's styles. The lines are extremely Ishikawa-like.

>>15374869
I'll be honest, I never finished Kirihito cuz the stuff with Kirihito himself didn't grab me. The parts with the crazy rapist guy seem more interesting and portray insanity in a really neat way from the pages I saw but I didn't properly get there. I'll finish it some day.

I think the contrast between the humans and creatures in Ishinomori can be really interesting, like when the Cyborgs get eaten up by a giant coelacanth that looks like nothing else in the manga.

>Am I the only one who hates Rock as a villain? He usually has like no motive other than being a giant asshole and looking "cool".

I think his actions made sense in that Phoenix story.

In Alabaster (one of those series Tezuka disowned lol) he was just cartoonishly evil but it was done in a really darkly funny and charismatic way so I enjoyed it

The Sabu & Ichi anime is interesting cuz it went for the opposite style in terms of linework. The manga is really round and organic and the anime is really angular. I love both to be honest.

>>15375426
>If it's not him doing that God Mazinger page then it's some unnamed Dynamic Pro artist who draws exactly like him and is secretly some kind of genius at imitating other people's styles. The lines are extremely Ishikawa-like.

So you claim, but you need to realize the difference between conjecture and fact. It's rather immature to insist something so much without proof.

>>15375511
>I think the contrast between the humans and creatures in Ishinomori can be really interesting

Yeah, it does actually work in a way. The excessive details between the two make the shark in the panels more horrifying. Probably wouldn't work if it was in the same style as the characters.

>>15374941
>Getter Robo Bible
Does anyone still have the translated scans of it? I've been unable to find a place to download it.

>>15375589
I just think that if Dynamic Pro had an artist that amazing not named Ishikawa we would've known who it was by now. That's amazingly high-level art that also happens to look very, very Ishikawa style.

I've seen Nagai himself draw some Ishikawa-ish pages, in Shin Violence Jack and the climax of Devilman Lady, but they're not quite the same. I don't think he has it in him to copy Ishikawa that well.

>>15373342
>>15373333
>>15373330
These don't look like Ishikawa at all, the hatshing is really really uniquely Nagai-like.

I think the biggest problem with modern Nagai is when he draws pretty characters like Akira, Ryo, Miki etc they just don't have the appeal they used to. It's the same problem I think Nagano had for a good chunk of FSS.

There was a lot of shit that bothered me a lot in 90s Nagai and I still say a lot of the Lady art is ugly but he's grown past most of it.

I dont, it is a silly thing to do.

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>>15373353
>that pic
>mfw ishikawa and giger are probably creating the most batshit crazy cosmic horrors with sexual innuendo in the afterlife
>and we can't see it

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>>15373170
>>15374540
>calling one of if not the greateast manga of all time a "storyboard" and not being ashamed of yourself

No wonder this board gets infested with so many shitposters.

>>15375756
we'll see it soon enough
they're doing R&D for where we go

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One of my country biggest seller is going to have another Tezuka Crossover next month I guess.

>>15374570
>Even Jared Cook and Frederick Schodt, who translated the manga in its entirety and fought for it to get published in English for 30 years, admit that the series really isn't worth reading after Resurrection.
Anon, what I gonna ask is not a critic, I'm just curious to see if my memory is not playing tricks with me, but didn't this exact same phrase wasn't used in a old manga thread here in /m/ some time ago?

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>>15375768
>one of if not the greateast manga of all time
In what universe?

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>>15375801
the other volume.

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>>15375819
Kinda sad that Tezuka died leaving his friend alone (and super fucking rich)

>>15375823
shit, the first movie is /m/ as fuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrzMyRubRDI

>>15375768
What the fuck is going on in that scene? The flow is all over the place.

>>15375844
It's flipped.

>>15375768
I don't even know what's going on there.

>>15375817
Busterbeam is always repeating himself. And posting the exact same pictures. He has a real mental disease. Just ignore.

>>15375945
>implying I like Schodt
I'm the guy who said he sucks. Ironically I did post that "General Caster" panel before (on /a/) so you could've pointed that out instead.

You suck at this.

>>15375818
>being this much of a contrarian

Nothing new from /m/

>>15375844
>>15375927
Are you serious?

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>>15375927
see
>>15375865

It's readable and the actual quality of the art is very, very high - the guy going on about "off model" before was being dumb. Miyazaki is obviously a really high caliber artist in terms of technical stuff and is in full control of his art.

BUT. It's still absolutely not top-notch paneling. Ishinomori, Nagai and Tezuka all have far, far more inventive use of the uniqueness of the comic book medium than the Nausicaa manga.

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>>15375976
Sabu & Ichi is just filled with good shit in that regard

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>>15375992

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>>15375994

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>>15375998
look at all these kick ass transitions

>>15375975
I'm not being a contrarian, nor do I think Nausicaa is bad. I just think you are being a bit hyperbolic trying to claim its one of/the greatest manga of all time.

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>>15376006
It's acknowledged by many people, especially in Japan, to be the greatest manga of all time. Even Anno considers it as such and took far more inspiration from it for Eva than he did with any form Nagai.

To deny just how important of a milestone this manga is is just being contrarian, no exceptions.

How is it hyperbolic?

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>>15375976
>>15374540
>>15374494
>all this whining about paneling

What did you expect from a fast-paced war epic?

>>15376042
>took far more inspiration from it for Eva than he did with any form Nagai
That sounds like a huge assumption on your part. The Nagai & Anno interview made Nagai sound like a massive influence. Ishikawa too.
>Even Anno considers it as such
Got the specific quote?

>>15376046
>all
It's just me and another guy but "fast paced war epic" is one of the greatest excuse to have inventive paneling & page compositions.

>>15376046
If you read my post clearly you would see that my argument was in defense of Miyazaki's paneling. Like FSS, the art is meant to be appreciated in a full-size magazine (both were published in that format) not through a bad scan on a tiny laptop. The appeal of those two manga is the art and details, not the usage of manga techniques and transitions.

That being said, Nausicaa's art is too dense, and Miyazaki doesn't give each panel enough room to breath. There's too much going on in each panel for anything to really stand out. And when you have 13 of those super-detailed panels on a single page, it's overwhelming. That's why people complain about characters not standing out or dialogue taking up too much space, Miyazaki doesn't use the economy of the manga language to his full advantage. if there's one thing that the movie does better than the manga, it's portraying the world of the planet. In the movie, it actually feels large and of proper epic stature, because everything from the insects to the characters to the environments are given room to stand out. In the manga it's all squashed together.

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>>15376048
>That sounds like a huge assumption on your part.

Nope:

>"When I meet Anno, he sometimes tells me that he wants to create a sequel to Nausicaa. According to him, he considers Evangelion a continuation of Nausicaa, done in his own way. It’s amazing how much he was influenced by Nausicaa."

http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/15337/Nausicaa-A-Miyazaki-and-Anno-Love-Story-Toshio-Suzuki/

>>15376054
War epics are not about being flashy and innovative, they are about being large and grand in scope. Nausicaa does this in spades.

>>15376081
>There's too much going on in each panel for anything to really stand out.

I can read and see everything just fine.

>>15375768
>one of if not the greateast manga of all time
Jesus christ.

>>15376042
>FAPP

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>>15375992
>>15375994
>>15375998
Kinda failing to see what's so special about the paneling here.

>>15376046
Reminds me of early Five Star Stories.

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>>15376280
>Reminds me of early Five Star Stories.

Naganao and Miyazaki were huge Moebius fanboys.

Nagano and Miyazaki are insignificant as mangaka. Just blips on the radar of the manga world.

>>15376360
>There are people who actually think this

>>15376369
It's absolutely true. They are not prolific or particularly influential. They are also not very skilled at manga, and it shows in their bog standard paneling and disjointed sequences. They also can't use screentones worth a damn nor do they understand how to use the negative space of a page or how to pace dialog. To compare them to mangaka like Tezuka or Ishinomori is a joke.

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>>15376360
Other than the obvious unarguable Miyazaki fanboy in here, I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

Nausicaa and FSS are significant in the context of anime as being the two most popular manga at their time that were published in anime magazines. In the 80s and early 90s, Animage and Newtype were competing to be the top anime magazine. It's no coincidence that once Nausicaa stopped being published in Animage, it never caught up with Newtype because FSS was still running. Today Newtype is the biggest anime magazine out there, and FSS had a lot to do with its growth and survival in the older days.

Too bad they were so popular that other similar works at the time like Rune Masquer and Dragon's Heaven couldn't compete with them and got cancelled early on.

>>15376401
>Nausicaa and FSS are significant in the context of anime as being the two most popular manga at their time
This is false.

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>>15376392
>They also can't use screentones worth a damn

The thin linework used in the shading was part of the appeal. Why trash that in order to use something as boring as flat slabs of shading tones?

>>15376392
>particularly influential

Is that why people are constantly ripping off Nagano's designs or why it's one of the main reasons people buy NewType magazine?

>>15376415
>that were published in anime magazines

If you're going to greentext at least do it properly.

>>15376423
He was talking about them as mangaka, which is true to a certain extent. But as artists, I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to argue otherwise.

>>15376392
>how to pace dialog

This is about as idiotic as you can get with any complaint about a manga.

>>15375768
It looks like something Lazy Matsumoto would do.

I fucking hate Miyazaki. Why won't this old fart die already?

The anime industry will be better off without his excessive whining and delusions of grandeur about chinese cartoons for children.

>>15376820
Was wondering when Lazyrager would enter this thread. Now we know he hates Miyazaki too.

>>15371985
Matsumoto belongs in the trash.

>>15376831
True.

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>>15374941
>But it's not?
Have you looked at the lines? They're far too sharp.

>>15377063
That has nothing to do with leveling, though. Good job?

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>>15376280
Creative scene transitions that only work in comic books (Go table -> net, black Go piece -> pic with black background etc, that stuff would just feel weird and not work as well in an animated medium)

>>15375992 is subtler but the black framing is really cool

Nothing you guys have posted from Nausicaa or FSS shows anything that would not work in an anime fine but Tezuka, Nagai and Ishinomori do a fuckton of it.

For example in this entire earthquake scene from Violence Jack Nagai uses zig-zagging panels to suggest the earth shaking. Something that only works in comics.
>>15376194
> According to him, he considers Evangelion a continuation of Nausicaa
Yeah and when talking about Nagai he said it was a continuation of Mazinger and the same sort of story lol. I wish I had the quote, I'm 100% sure I read it somewhere.
>>15376471
Not really? Pacing dialogue from panel to panel is a big unique aspect of manga. Western comics do more big panels with a lot of words but manga tends to spend multiple panels on a single line and it's really cool and neat.

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>>15377152
Or here to show the building is tipping because of the quake. It makes you feel the character's desperation far more and it's not quite the same as just having an animated frame off-kilter, the whole PAGE feels off-kilter.

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Look at Jack jumping into the panel here. Once again, a medium-exclusive trick.

Not to say Miyazaki & Nagano's visual execution isn't great because it is, they beat Tezuka Nagai and Ishinomori in terms of technical draftsmanship skill and as a top-tier animator Miyazaki had to understand things like anatomy, construction and perspective far better to make everything look correct and three-dimensional from whatever angle he had to draw. Even Tezuka's own key animation was from projects he was in charge of so he could choose what to draw. But the thing is these skills do not revolve around things that are unique to comics so it's not going to have as big of an impact in terms of showing you what comics can do as much as what illustrations in general can do.

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>>15377141
Which is a result of bad levelling. You do know what I'm talking about, right? I mean, just look at the image in >>15377157 and >>15377152 and compare them to >>15377063 those Grendizer images. Unless, they were like that to begin with, but that's unlikely.

>>15377219
>Which is a result of bad levelling
Not in this case. You can clearly see from the raw that the page was roated and since it was an artifacted jpg, it didn't raster cleanly and so slanted lines are jagged. Please don't talk about things you don't know about.

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>>15377253
Look again.

>>15377303
Nope. In fact, your leveling job is actually darker. This can be clearly seen on the left bushes in the top panel, for example. Also, your is blurrier in places, which leads me to believe that they sharpened the page, which would also lead to jagged lines in conjunction with rotating. I don't even know why you're so autistically stuck on it or even brought it up in the first place. But either way, you keep being wrong. This is the last time I will respond to your drivel, toodles.

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>>15377152
>Nothing you guys have posted from Nausicaa or FSS shows anything that would not work in an anime fine but Tezuka, Nagai and Ishinomori do a fuckton of it.

Other than the aforementioned Nausicaa fanboy, I don't see anyone else making any argument about either of those two using more advanced techniques. It's not exactly about techniques either. They're the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts. This is for the reader to enjoy the details in each panel. It's a different approach, and a perfectly valid one.

As mentioned here though >>15374494, I find Nagano has a better grasp of using manga as a medium than Miyazaki. If Miyazaki were to draw a scene like this, the crowd would remain a part of every panel in the background instead of being blurred out to make the character more visible.

>>15372016
I dunno, are you sure you haven't been browsing /a/ by mistake?

>>15377330
>They're the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.
You got sources for your claims?

>>15377361
Animage and Newtype are published in A3 magazine size, so the manga had to follow suit.

If you can find me any manga from Tezuka, Ishinimori, Matsumoto, et al that were originally drawn in A3 size manuscripts, be my guest.

>>15377380
Correction, it's A4 size. Not like it matters much since most other manga are in B-size.

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Nausicaa's original concept was way more interesting than what we ended up getting.

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>>15377400
Samurai/Knight science fantasy involving flying mecha birds in sky castles...

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>>15377404
...partnering up with actual giant robots

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>>15377407

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>>15377408
Pretty much every single Miyazaki movie came straight from this original concept

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>>15377409
We were -this- close to getting a series on giant flying mecha bugs and dragons

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>>15377412
Aliens and knights riding motorbikes

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>>15377407
>that girl and that mech design

Is it time for L-Gaim?

>>15377380
>Animage and Newtype are published in A3 magazine size, so the manga had to follow suit.
Not true. They could have used larger manuscripts.

>If you can find me any manga from Tezuka, Ishinimori, Matsumoto, et al that were originally drawn in A3 size manuscripts, be my guest.
The burden of proof is on you, because you insist that they didn't use A3. However, I know that comic artists draw on paper that are larger than usual print sizes, so I really doubt your claims. If you can back up your statements, be my guest. But I really suggest you stop talking out of your ass. The fact is this: you and I do not know.

>>15376194
The man is a massive otaku and sucks the dick of literally every single one of his heroes that he gets to talk to. The difference is that when it comes to his influences from Nagai they are extremely and blatantly obvious line direct visuals and characters being copied over such as the Shinji discovering the Eva and Kabuto Kouji discovering Mazinger is shot for shot exactly the same. I'm sure if he met the creator of whichever ultraman series he imitated the most he would say that Eva was a continuation of that too like he also said for Mazinger and Nausicaa, except that would make way more sense than claiming it was a continuation of Nausicaa.

>>15377436
>Frederik L. Schodt observed differences between Nausicaä and other Japanese manga. He has noted that it was serialized in the large A4 size of Animage, much larger than the normal size for manga.

There is no "could have", the reality is that they were some of the very few manga out there made in that size. Unless you can provide any reason why Tezuka and co would ever draw in A4 size when their art was never about emphasizing exceptional detail, be my guest.

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>>15377451
>blatantly obvious line direct visuals and characters being copied over such as the Shinji discovering the Eva and Kabuto Kouji discovering Mazinger is shot for shot exactly the same.

So is Asuka being an expy of Kushana, right down to the her-mom-goes-insane-and-thinks-a-doll-is-her-daughter backstory.

>I'm sure if he met the creator of whichever ultraman series he imitated the most he would say that Eva was a continuation of that too

Except he didn't, and he said it was Nausicaa. You do know he also wants to direct a sequel/remake of it too, right? And his live-action short right before Shin Godzilla was based on Nausicaa as well?

Whether you like it or not, Anno worships Nausicaa. Sounds to me like you just want Maz to be more relevant than it actually is, Xpearse.

>>15377457
>was never about emphasizing exceptional detail,
What kind of exceptional detail are you talking about here?

>>15377465
>So is Asuka being an expy of Kushana, right down to the her-mom-goes-insane-and-thinks-a-doll-is-her-daughter backstory.
And Kaouru is 1:1 a clone of Ryo from Devilman down to his undying love for the protagonist and even being an angel. If you think Nausicaa is a bigger influence on Eva than Mazinger, when the entire crux of Eva is basically being Mazinger blended with Devilman told in a universe akin to Ultraman. Yes he's inspired by Nausicaa no fucking shit, the guy started Nadia which had concepts and other work for it done by Miyazaki. Anno is an otaku, he is a huge fan of and draws inspiration from everyone. Hell that was a trademark of Gainax in general: anime by otaku for otaku.

If you are claiming that Eva is more of a send up to Nausicaa than Mazinger when NUMEROUS scenes reference or damn near recreate shit from Mazinger you're either a blithering retard, an UTTERLY blind fanboy, baiting people, or some combination of the three. But it's pretty obvious what and who you are by revealing you are the guy who crawls up Xpearse's ass and claims everyone is him.

>>15377465
>Sounds to me like you just want Maz to be more relevant than it actually is,
Not him, but you are being idiotic if you think this discussion is about pushing any dumb agenda. What he said is right.

Anno is a big fanboy, and stuff like Gundam, Mazinger, Devilman, Ultraman, and Nausicaa all had big influences on him. You're the one making the claim that Nausicaa had the biggest of them all. If only you actually knew how the human mind works, you wouldn't say stupid shit like that.

You're just trivializing it for some reason I don't know.

>>15377457
>He has noted that it was serialized in the large A4 size of Animage, much larger than the normal size for manga.
>serialized
That says nothing about the size of the original manuscripts. Stop spreading misinfo.

>>15377475
>Not him

sure you aren't you max autist

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>>15376002
The old Skull Man has a bunch of them too.

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>>15377557

>>15377476
>size of original manuscript is smaller than publication size

Are you retarded?

>>15372016
The contrarian effect to the nth level.

Hipsters always claim the old days were better, so people here call the old days shit because n-1 contrarians are too many

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>>15377559

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>>15377568

>claiming Nausicaa had a bigger influence on Evangelion than Mazinger, Devilman and Ultraman
Absolute insanity. Get the fuck out, Miyazaki pleb.

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>>15377569
Also a some scenes like

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>>15377584

>>15377565
>size of original manuscript is smaller than publication size
I never said that. Guess you're retarded.

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>>15377587

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>>15377591

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>>15377596
Notice how the car starts at the top of the page and each subsequent panel is pushed down more and more in every page and at the end the car is shown being picked up from the bottom of a lake.
It's also foreshadowing because the driver of the original car is the culprit of the crime shown in pic related.

>>15377588
>I never said that. Guess you're retarded.

But you did. Guess you're retarded.

>>15377611
>But you did
Quote it and link the post? You seem to have a problem dealing with fact and separating from your flawed conjecture.

>>15377618
Not him but if >>15377476 is not about that you should probably be more clear next time you write something as you made both me and the other guy you're arguing with confused about the original meaning of your words.

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>>15377631
>both me and the other guy
lel

Either way, I can't be responsible for anyone's lack of reading comprehension. Let me spell it out for you: serialization size does not explicitly define the size of the original manuscript, but generally the original manuscript is larger.

You do not know what size of paper Ishinomori, Yokoyama, Tezuka or any other mangaka drew their manuscripts on. You assume that because Nausicaa and FSS were serialized in large print that naturally their manuscripts must be larger than all other manga manuscripts. That's extremely flawed reasoning and you have no proof of that. Essentially, it's a stupid thought and you're an idiot for stating it as fact when your conjecture lacks any substance.

>>15377618
All I see is an idiot shitposter whose only tactic is goalpost moving.

If your argument was that Nausciaa's manuscript is larger than A4, you prove my point.

If your argument was that it's manuscript is smaller than A4, you're retarded. But you claim that's not your point.

If your argument was that your statement meant none of the above, then you've just confirmed that you're a goalpost-moving shitposting fucktard.

At this point you can pretend to claim that you're another person who had nothing to do with the argument before, but we both know that's a lie.

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>>15377637

>>15377637
Alright, then it's entirely a failure on Nagano and Miyazaki's part that their paneling is so flat and unimaginative

>>15377637
>a manga designed to be viewed on a larger print size will follow the same principals as one made for a smaller book size

Do you see where your shitty logic falls apart? It doesn't matter what size manuscript it is when what matters is how it's published.

>>15377639
>All I see is an idiot shitposter whose only tactic is goalpost moving.
No, you're just illiterate. I have only said that you do not know what you claim to know and that print size does not equal manuscript size.

>If your argument was that Nausciaa's manuscript is larger than A4, you prove my point.
That was never my argument. Nausicaa's manuscript is at least A4 size, though. It is not necessarily larger than that but it's possible.

>If your argument was that it's manuscript is smaller than A4, you're retarded. But you claim that's not your point.
I've never once said that. You're the only one who has said it.

>If your argument was that your statement meant none of the above, then you've just confirmed that you're a goalpost-moving shitposting fucktard.
No, you're just a moron. My argument is that print size does not directly correlate to manuscript size. The manuscript can easily be larger than print size and often is in the case of comics. Especially since for most manga there are multiple editions in multiple print sizes.

>At this point you can pretend to claim that you're another person who had nothing to do with the argument before, but we both know that's a lie.
No, I'm the same person and you'll always be the same fucking retard.

>>15377648
The size of the manuscript wouldn't affect their paneling layouts anyway, it's a dumb argument from the get go.

>>15377663
>a manga designed to be viewed on a larger print size will follow the same principals as one made for a smaller book size

The size of the manuscript has no bearing on layout and only affects how large you can print it before a loss in quality. How can you live with being so stupid?

>>15377666
>getting this assblasted over the usage of the word "manuscript"

Did you purposely miss the entire argument to show off your little middle school usage of semantics?

Nausicaa and FSS were made with the intent of being printed on larger paper. That's why there is more focus on fine detail instead of dynamic action. Is this clear and concise enough for you, my poor illiterate straw-grasping anon?

>>15377666
>The size of the manuscript wouldn't affect their paneling layouts anyway

It affects how much detail gets put in per panel. You can whine about dynamic paneling all you want, but that was never my argument >>15377330

>>15377683
>That's why there is more focus on fine detail instead of dynamic action.
Sounds like more of your conjecture. Where's the source? Also, by the way, fine detail and dynamic action aren't exclusive. Your argument makes no sense.

It's hilarious that you've now moved your goalpost after I exposed the flaws in your original statements.

Finally, I close with this. A4 is the size of notebook paper. If you are seriously suggesting that the majority of mangaka draw their manuscripts on papers smaller than a notebook, you're crazy. Most collected comics are not printed in the size of a notebook, but that has no bearing on how large the original manuscript is.

Furthermore, you claim
>Nausicaa and FSS were made with the intent of being printed on larger paper.
That's wrong. Even Shonen Jump is printed in A4 format (English Shonen Jump is A5) and so are the majority of magazines were manga are original published. So therefore, you argument completely falls apart: Nausicaa and FSS were not serialized in a format larger than most magazines. They were in fact printed on a standard size for magazines.

>>15377666
>My argument is that print size does not directly correlate to manuscript size.

And just to prove that you're an idiot once again, Tezuka's original manuscripts were all usually done in B6 size. Same as how it was published.

This is only after two whole seconds on google.

>>15377693
>You can whine about dynamic paneling all you want
I never even brought it up until >>15377648
mentioned it. Congrats, dumbass.

By the way, you said
>They're the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.
which is unsubstantiated and also false, given than the standard magazine size is A4. Unless you meant that Miyazaki and Nagano drew on smaller paper than usual lel.

>>15377719
forgot link

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/05/19/national/unpublished-tezuka-cartoon-sheets-shown/#.WN0uRqK1uCg

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>>15377719
You really have no idea what paper sizes are like, do you? A notebook is A4.

The funny thing is despite the obvious shitposter and shitflinging that followed, I find this thread extremely interesting to learn about older mangaka as well as technical details in making manga

>>15377725
A3 is bigger than A4 you know that, right?

>>15377714
>Nausicaa and FSS were not serialized in a format larger than most magazines. They were in fact printed on a standard size for magazines.

Newtype Magzine dimensions: 11.6 x 8.7 x 0.3 inches

WSJ dimensions: 10.2 x 7 x 1.3 inches

It's okay, you can admit to being a fucktwat anytime.

>>15377719
>>15377726
You really have a hard time separating fact from conjecture.

>And just to prove that you're an idiot once again, Tezuka's original manuscripts were all usually done in B6 size. Same as how it was published.
So? I said that print size does not directly correlate to manuscript size. What you posted does not refute that.

Also, you said
>Tezuka's original manuscripts were all usually done in B6 size
The link you posted does not substantiate that. It only talks about a very specific set of work he did and says they were that size. You then turned around and said that Tezuka's works was usually all done in that size, despite the article never saying or implying that. Try sticking to the facts, buddy.

>>15377754
>It only talks about a very specific set of work he did and says they were that size.

And what other works of his can you bring up of his that weren't that size.

C'mon shitposter, try giving some proof to your own unsubstantiated claims before asking for others.

Let me recap this shitfest for you.

>>15377330 claimed that
>[Miyazaki and Nagano] the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.
To which >>15377436 rightfully said that he could not know that and had no actual proof for that claim, because print size does not correlate to manuscript size.

Now the guy who made the wild claim that Miyazaki and Nagano are the only ones who drew manuscripts in that size is sperging like a moron at being shown that what he said isn't based on fact.

>>15377763
>And what other works of his can you bring up of his that weren't that size.
The burden of proof is on your to prove that Tezuka drew all his works at that size, because that's what you're claiming. I'm simply telling you that you don't know that and should refrain from claiming that you do. Stop being an emotional fuckwit and stick to the facts.

>>15377769
>The burden of proof is on your to prove that Tezuka drew all his works at that size

>Fans will sure love this treasured edition, the complete reproduction of original colored manuscripts in B5 size.

http://tezukaosamu.net/en/news/?p=2686

It's okay anon, I too can spend another two seconds on google to find another original reprint of a original Tezuka work.

You're grasping at straws. Tezuka and others drew in B-size paper. Nagano and Miyazaki drew in A-size. There are countless other articles I would link but I can't do shit while I'm on my phone.

Anyway shitposter, so far the only "proof" you've offered about magazine sizes has been proven wrong >>15377752, so start backing up your claims with actual substantiated information for once.

>>15377767
>because print size does not correlate to manuscript size.

print size can only be equal to or smaller than manuscript size.

>>15377790
Again, those are only a fraction of his work. Besides, you've still got Ishinomori, Yokoyma, Nagai and Ishikawa to go through. Remember, you said that Miyazaki and Nagano were literally the only ones to draw on A4 manuscripts.

>Tezuka and others drew in B-size paper
>and others
Where's your proof?

Stick to facts, fanboy. Don't pollute this thread with your fake news.

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>>15377797
Generally, yes. But not in all cases. I've seen collection printings that contained chapters blown up to a larger size for whatever reason. Pic related.

>>15377806
Where's yours? My claims are as good as yours right now, so where's your proof that Ishinimori or Tezuka or anyone else other than Miyazaki and Nagano ever used A-size paper transcripts?

>>15377826
>Where's yours?
I haven't made any claims. You're bad at this logic thing, aren't you.

So this is the true power of xPearse huh

>>15377836
>NO U
Look, it's a give and take game here. If the best you can do is deny everything I give you as evidence, we're not going to get anywhere. The fact that you somehow think Newtype magazine is smaller than Shonen Jump just goes to show how little you know about how manga is published at all.

If you deliberately decide to ignore the most common trends in manga where 99% of manga are not made with A-size manuscripts, then be my guest. It's the same retarded argument any shitposter uses when someone says something is influential/popular/declining etc, If you don't think the sky is blue just because you're under a roof, that's your business.

But let's be real here, you're just another form of Lazyrager, denying the obvious in favor of being either completely delusional or completely shitposting.

>>15378188
You made an unsubstantiated and wild claim, I called you full of shit because you have absolutely no proof. Deal with it, you raging retard.

>>15378200
>You made an unsubstantiated and wild claim

I stated the obvious, and you're wearing a tinfoil hat trying to spread more Lazyrager levels of bullshit because you think people don't know any better.

But please, keep denying. All you've shown is that you're a one-line spewing fuckwad who knows nothing about publishing.

>>15378200
>proof
>Oxygen doesn't exist because I can't see it!

When are you going to say something original for once?

>>15378209
>>15378212
>Nagano and Miyazaki two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.

Prove this.

>>15378216
>Nagano and Miyazaki aren't the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.

Prove this.

>>15378216
Like seriously, all you have to do is find ONE manuscript from Ishinimori, Tezuka, etc that was done on A3 or A4 size paper to prove me wrong.

You can't even do something as simple as that, because chances are, you won't find it.

>>15378220
So now you're just blatantly shitposting. Wonderful.

>>15378229
>pot calling kettle black.gif

>>15378226
>>15378236
>make claim with no proof
>get asked to either prove your point or stop saying baseless things
>proceed to shitpost for over 100 posts and sperg for literal hours about it
You've got legit mental problems.

>>15378244
>state a fact
>some retard barges in throwing a tangent on a a universal trend related to said fact and how it doesn't exist
>asks me to collect all available information of said existing trend
>he can't refute anything that's being provided other than NO U
>he can't provide any evidence to support his counterclaim
>backpedals so hard he has to resort to forgetting his own claims, starts goalpost moving and shitposting
>more NO U

Truly inspiring.

>>15378263
>state a fact
You never did this. If you had, you would have proof of said fact. Because that's what separates fact from fiction.

I've got an honest question. Why do you shitpost so much? Are you doing this for fun? Does it really anger you this much to be questioned about claims you make? No matter what your answer is, it's clear that you are a deeply disturbed individual. I hope you find peace one day.

>>15378244
>>proceed to shitpost for over 100 posts and sperg for literal hours about it

>translation: pls stop bullying me for being a retard

>>15378268
>NO U proof
>starts projecting and sperging

Seek help.

>>15378268
Still waiting for that A3/A4 Ishinimori/Tezuka manga btw.

>>15372016
Becuase /krg/ has failed as a containment thread and posters from there are allowed to run amok across the board without being reprimanded.

>>15378263
>>he can't provide any evidence to support his counterclaim

He did provide this bit of stupidity >>15377714

>God exists
>prove it
>NO U prove God doesn't exist

he's got to be shitposting, because most people are this stupid

sage and ignore, this thread is over

>>15378319
>finding an A3/A4 Ishinimori/Tezuka manga is as challenging as proving that god exists

When you've reached this level of retardation I don't think any amount of saging will save you.

People like Nagano can't exactly do fancy little dialogue panels even if they wanted to. He gets like 10 or 15 pages a month to work with.

>>15375817

It's taken from an article.

>>15374558
>>15374553
See I never notice this shit on my own, primary because I grew up in such a secular environment that allegories to god and religion just kinda fly over my head. It's always neat to see things from a different perspective.

>xPearse ruins another thread.jpg

>>15378370
How can he ruin threads he makes?

>>15378370
Fuck off, Fujifruit

File: I_came_here_to_fuck_you_up.gif (595KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

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>scrolling through all the shitposting after that one sperg is told to prove his claim

>>15378381
>so butthurt he has to resort to ebin reaction images

File: The Five Star Stories - III - 046.jpg (520KB, 1092x1500px) Image search: [Google]

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>>15378376
That's not me. Why do you keep spamming my name? Who are you, anon? ;_;

>>15377451
They're not that obvious....

>>15378220
>>15378263
>Nagano and Miyazaki aren't the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.
>he can't provide any evidence to support his counterclaim

As a neutral observer to this autistic shitfest, he's actually right and you're actually wrong and fallacious.

You're the one making a positive claim, therefore you're the one who should bring the evidence up.

>>15378434
>Nagano and Miyazaki are the only two mangaka in this entire thread that use A3-size paper for their manuscripts.
>he can't provide any evidence to support his counterclaim

As a neutral observer to this autistic shitfest, he's actually right and you're actually wrong and fallacious.

You're the one making a positive claim, therefore you're the one who should bring the evidence up.

>>15378395
Diebuster.

>>15378462
Nice try, Ass Pierce, we all know it's you.

File: why rebuild isnt over.jpg (21KB, 300x326px) Image search: [Google]

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>>15377474
>And Kaouru is 1:1 a clone of Ryo from Devilman

More like a 1:1 clone of Ikuhara.

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>Nagano and Miyazaki are the only two mangaka ITT to use A3 manuscripts
source? how do you know?
>I just know
if you don't have any proof, then you don't know
>YOU NEED TO PROVIDE PROOF THAT I'M WRONG

>>15378491
Why are you still so butthurt anon? For fucks sake it's just all the same shitty zimbawe cave paintings.

>>15378428
Cmon anon, Anno openly admitted in his interview with Nagai that he pretty much copied the reveal scene for Mazinger 1:1. There was an image that showed several visuals lifted whole sale by Eva but I don't think I have it saved. It also showed what he copied over from ultraman and I think Devilman.

>>15378511
Yeah, but it's just that one scene. You made it sound like there's a lot of them. The similarities are still superficial.

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>>15378470
You're not fooling anyone. Grow up.

>>15378582
robots bleeding too.

they're not "superficial". they're part of the visual experience.

>>15382418
>robots bleeding too.

You do know Mazinger didn't invent this, right?

>>15372022
As if Japanese people weren't workaholics to begin with. Dude, it's not as if mangaka are the only ones that spend most of their lives working there.