So beyond the War Crimes (Colony drops, colony gassings, etc.)

>>15305657
No, even then they were still dependent upon the aid of the Earth yet demanded autonomy while still demanding those benefits. Not to mention their demands that all humans leave Earth

>>15305657
The Zabi dictatorship runs antithetical to the principles of democracy and relies on not producing Ghirens.

Other than that, they had the same justification as the Americans did for their independence wars. Whether or not this justification gives them moral ground depends on whether or not you are American.

>>15305690
>Other than that, they had the same justification as the Americans did for their independence wars.

Taxation without Representation?

>>15305690
I don't remember any Americans shrieking REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE GET OFF MY FUCKING PLANET

>>15305721
What, you don't remember that one time the Americans tried to drop Massachusetts on London because the British wouldn't stop polluting?

>>15305708
Just plain Representation in the EF Assembly, similar to how the American didn't get Representation in Parliament. Thing is though, the Federation allowed them to become independent, but started raising prices on goods purchased from Earth.

>>15305721
It was instead, "REEEEEEEEE GET OFF MY LAND BECAUSE I CAN'T ILLEGALLY UNDERCUT YOU."

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>>15305657
>implying Zabi's illogical war has anything to do with the ideology itself

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>>15307082

Are you implying that leaders would act ouside of the material situations their ground soldiers would find themselves in?

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>>15307109
You mean the entire post-industrial revolution timeline?
Of-course.

>>15307082

>illogical

Given the situation they find themselves in (and given that they want to stay in power) war was their only option.

>>15310347
Fuck The Origin and it's bullshit

>>15305690
>)
Didn't they invade because the Feds did not want to trade with them? That make Zeon asshole still. They were independent already

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>>15305762
We dropped their fucking TEA man

>>15305690
>Other than that, they had the same justification as the Americans did for their independence wars.
A bunch of rich faggots being mad that they had to pay their fair share of taxes to the main government to help pay for local problems they didn't deal with themselves (the recent war w/France in the colonies)?

>>15310347
Before Origin retconned everything to hell and back Zeon was left untouched for 20 years, and the feds had shown no interest in doing anything other than letting them rot, I don't see it.

Unless you mean "Zeon needed a war to distract the masses from how shitty their 'independence' was", then maybe.

>>15310541
Is tea dropping morally worse than colony dropping for bongs ?

>>15311744
it's bong's tea man. no laughing matter there.

>>15311744
It was the Bongs' 9/11.

>>15310928
American colonies had serious underlying problems back then. Some colonial elite fags who weren't invited to the British circlejerk decided to take advantage of the unrest and direct it away from the colonial elites (like themselves) in general and focus it on the Brits and their cronies so they could take over control. It burned up alot of energy, but planters still dominated the South and merchants the North before and after the war. Only relief for the common man was that they were allowing him to leave their shitty, rotten society and try to make their own out west after they fight the Indians out there. Even then new land distribution was kinda fucked since many of the officers in the army bought out shares in land and immediately started speculating, all of which was supported by the new government, especially with guys like Hamilton, who had strong ties to speculators or were speculators themselves, leading the policy. Alot of the Federalists just wanted to do what Britain would do, but with them in charge. That's why you had stuff like Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion right after the Revolution. Most of the problems with America, I think have to do with this tendency to fight wars rather than solve our internal issues.

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>>15305778

>Just plain Representation in the EF Assembly, similar to how the American didn't get Representation in Parliament.

That was always a problem for the colonies and not just Side 3.

In fact, it was the actions of 1 non Spacenoid (unless I have that wrong) family and their Mobile Armor that began to reverse that trend years after the One Year War.

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>>15305657

>>15305657
The probably with zeeks is that while the average zeek is a common person, they are all always masterminded by a bunch of vindictive lunatics, so that craziness tend to seep into higher positions.

>>15312986

Amazing the issues racism can solve.

>>15305657
>would they had the moral/legal high ground over the Federation?
In the Enlightenment sense, technically yes. The rule of a population is decided by those people comprising the ruled themselves, philosophically at least.

However it wouldn't have fared well, considering the Federation had all the resources/capital. They'd become Space Cuba/North Korea from embargos and eventually collapse from starvation and/or an imploded economy.

They WERE right that war was necessary for independence, but they took it too far from the very start. Admittedly, you could tell they didn't plan things out very well if they thought they were going to be left with independence after dropping a colony on earth whether it hit Jaburo or not.

>>15305657
>Basically, if Zeon had avoided the war crimes, would they had the moral/legal high ground over the Federation?

I mean, starting a war over goddamn nothing twenty years after your independence is a pretty shit thing to do, no two buts about it.

>>15313576
You mean apart the fact that they were independent for a large while and not starving. Not being North Korea. Being able to produce Mobile Suits. ect... for over 10 years. That is not North Korea level

>>15313576
>>15313026

>>15305690
There is a massive difference between an island trying to govern a continent that they were abusing economically to the point it was going to begin heading towards collapse and a nation taxing a colony that they fucking BUILT. You are also forgetting that the British hardly supplied anything to the colonies where as the colonies in Gundam were heavily supplied by Earth until they became a degree of self sufficient and they still were dependant on trade with earth.

The EF allowed a level of representation and autonomy for the colonies at the cost of surplus supplies and taxes for running the colonies. Britain was denying the America's essentially any form of representation and kept raising taxes, tariffs, and demanding supplies that were cutting into the livelihood of the Americans.

Tldr: a planet can rule a space station, an island can't rule a continent.

>>15315313
Try again Feddie scum. There are more people living in space than on earth by about 4 to 1 by UC 0079. The population of great britain was about double the population of the colonies at the time of the Revolutionary War. Not to mention they were less economically independent than Zeon was in relation to the Earth Federation. What's worse is that the guy who made that original argument, Thomas Paine, had almost no influence outside of Pennsylvania, and after the founding fathers used his pamphlets to turn the populace to fight for the founders to take control from the British, they cast him aside as a persona non-grata. At least the Zabis had the decency to honor Zeon Daikun's memory in public after they used his ideology to try to take control. American colonies didn't have any significant manufacturing industry until after the war, and even with industrial espionage it took a century to catch up. Not to mention they were back to trading with Britain right after independence, a luxury Zeon never got. Looking at all the factors involved, I'd say Zeon actually had much better case than Revolutionary Anerica.

>>15315408
>Looking at all the factors involved, I'd say Zeon actually had much better case than Revolutionary Anerica.
Except America wasn't PHYSICALLY CONSTRUCTED BY THE BRITISH.

It's a false equivalence comparing the America's and Zeon. Zeon attempting to secede is more akin to a spoiled son that lives in his parents attic demanding it belongs to him and he refuses to pay any form of rent, and should his parents think of disputing his ownership of their property or cease giving him free food then he will kill them in their sleep.

>>15315408
The problem is that Zeon was already independent. Again Zeon was not fighting for its freedom since they were already another country separate from the EF

>>15315649
Yeah, at that point the Zabis were just using it as an excuse to take over. One Year War was absolutely a war of Aggression fought in a way that needlessly killed way too many. If it were an actual war of Liberation, they would've just went after the Earth Federation's garrisons on each colony and asteroid bases. Gassing colonies shouldn't be necessary. Still doesn't make the argument for more spacenoid autonomy invalid.

>>15315464
If we're going with shitty rent examples, let's make it more accurate at least. Its more like you and four other people own a house, but then you decide to kick out the four other people into a house you built and then demand the other four pay you rent. If they try to go back to the first house, you send them back. One of the four realizes this whole situation is unfair and stops paying rent and tries to get the others to stop as well. Your response is to isolate the rabblerouser from everyone else and start showing up with guns everytime you see him. Eventually he cracks, and begins to go paranoid. One night he poisons one of the four, takes his corpse and uses it to destroy the first house and beat the shit out of you. I think everyone knows how it goes after that.

>>15315941

Some of that is unsubstantiated to an outright lie, like the four being forcibly kicked out or only showing up with guns. The Federation organised two fleet demonstrations in 20 years or something, one of which was after the war was over. And nothing in UC has ever said colonists were all forced off Earth, only that they felt so 60+ years after the fact.

>>15315464
>Except America wasn't PHYSICALLY CONSTRUCTED BY THE BRITISH.
Do you have since kind of mental disorder? It doesn't matter whether it was physically constructed or not. That's completely irrelevant. The Brits were indisputable to the startup of the American colonies as well, most were either under royal charter or were started by companies supported by the crown. None of that matters though, because once you have a significant number of people living there, they're gonna want proper political representation and start movements to get it the more economically independent they become. It was the case with America and its an even biggger case for Spacenoids. Do you really expect a situation where only a fifth of the population at best (considering how some of the Federation leaders treated the Dublin drop, even some on Earth aren't really that much better taken care of) has representation would last forever? You could be a monarchist arguing that since the king's ancestors built the country the peasants don't deserve rights, with your kind of rhetoric

>>15310928

American colonies had previously taken Louisberg, the French's prime fortress in the New World. The fucking Brits MADE the colonies give it back to the French. Fuck that. The Brits made stupid international decisions that doubly boned the colonists, and it harmed NH and MA the most, both rich and poor (militia clauses affecting all homeowners). The fort was taken in 1745, BEFORE the Brits got into the French and Indian Wars, where it had to be taken again in 1758. Telling the American colonists they'd have to pay for the Brit's repeatedly stupid decisions is plain-as-day grounds for demanding representation.

>>15316005
It took over 100 years of trying to work with England before the colonies rebelled, Zeon rebelled after the colony was established after like 30 (iirc the colony was habitable by year 50 and 80 is the one year war). Not to mention the way the English treated the Americans and the way Earth treated Zeon is a world of difference.

And fuck off it doesn't make any difference that the colonies were built by Earth, the colonies were made by earth money, resources, and labor. The colonies are their property. You can't stay in an apartment for a few years and decide that you own the apartment. What kind of asinine sovereign citizen bullshit are you spouting?

>>15316010
So in your world, people don't demand represention until the government fucks you up? Seems kinda ass backwards to me. Also, pretty sure Earth had retarded policies that hurt Spacenoids, as well. Zeta Gundam talks about that in specifics alot. Off the top of my head, the protests that started AEUG happened because the Earth Federation raised taxes on Spacenoids to focus on restoration on Earth, and did little restoration in Space. Wong Lee even talks about trade restrictions the Earth puts on the colonies in his first appearance. Imo, these are all effects of having no representation, just like having no say in which fort gets taken in whichever Treaty of Paris the Brits signed with the French is the result of no representation.

>>15305686
>No, even then they were still dependent upon the aid of the Earth yet demanded autonomy while still demanding those benefits.
Wrong, the entire point of the colonies was to take human pressure off of Earth. Colonies are supposed to sustain themselves and do unless they're trying to quick build a war machine like Zeon was. Zeon Deikun WANTED Earth to be left alone, which you mention yourself, so I guess you're just retarded.

>>15305690
>Other than that, they had the same justification as the Americans did for their independence wars.
Not really. Zeon had already been independent for a couple decades before the OYW started. Zabis just wanted control of the Earth sphere. It would be more like if 20-30 years after the American revolution America tried to conquer Britain and her colonies and claimed they were still fighting for independence, which I guess is kinda like what the war of 1812 was, but not really.

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>>15305657
>did Zeon have any other moral problems?

And this was in the original show, long before any fanfic tier attempts later on.

>>15316124

Wow, way to insert words into my mouth. You violate as well as Yazan.

No, what I was making clear is that the situation in the American colonies was notably different from that of UC Gundam. Other than the Feds, there's no other big power up until Zeon erupts to present a constant rival and threat. The equivalent here would be like Von Braun city taking Granada (if each aligned opposite Fed and Zeon), and the Fed gov't telling VB to give it back. Then, in Zeta, telling them to do it again, oops our bad, and then afterwards taxing the hell out of the Luna cities to cover it and any other wars.

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Does /m/ think the UED were justified in Brood War because they built the sleeper ships the Koprulu sector Terrans were unwillingly sent off in as undesirables?

>>15316124

Wasn't A.E.U.G. started in response to the 30 Bunch gassing?

>>15316124

Wow, I just re-read your statement. You actually try to equate AEUG's concerns post-war to Zeon's pre-war.

Again, context and geopolitical power. AEUG can complain for the very reason I stated, but Zeon? They had nobody to contend with except their parent nation, and nothing to the extent of mistakes the American colonies had equivalent to Britain making dumb decisions from 1740-1775. It's simply not the same circumstances to make that analogy work.

>>15316194

Yes. It's what defines the difference between the Titans and Londo Bell. Brute thuggery vs not brute thuggery.

>>15316203
Well that and Londo Bell being staffted by mostly spacenoids, and Londo Bell not being created by a closet Deikunist to deliberately make people hate the Federation so he could stage a coup and move everyone into space under his rule and then having that co-opted by a Jupiter fucking shit for his own schemes.

>>15315956
That's what happens when you try to explain geopolitics in an analogy to paying rent. Its retarded whether you compare countries to a NEET or a 5 guys between two houses.

>>15316236

Weren't Londo Bell and A.E.U.G. both mostly made up of Spacenoids? Or at least, the nationality of the people we do know it for is mostly "Spacenoids" in both cases as far as I know.

>>15316260
Londo Bell I think is mostly ex-AEUG, who were mostly made up of EFSF defectors. Although Bright is an Earthnoid and Amuro is one too technically.

>>15316080
>It took over 100 years of trying to work with England before the colonies rebelled
Irrelevant. What matters isn't how long they've been a colony but how much they've developed. A nuanced approach would be to give them representation as soon as they can stand on their own. When America got independent, it still wasn't quite there economically (depending heavily on trade, lots of economoc turmoil after the war, most industry developed after independence, etc.) and so we have a much nicer system where once a territory had reached a certain amount of population, they can hooks a referendum to join as a state with full representation.
> the colonies were made by earth money, resources, and labor. The colonies are their property
And this is exactly how the Brits looked at the 13 colonies.

>>15316124
No where in the anime does it state that Spacenoid can't vote. Hell what Titan was doing was illegal as well.

>>15316260
Amuro, Bright, ect... were all eathniods. Hell the original leaders was a senator

>>15316194
30 Bunch gassing happened because of protests that were happening in the colony. That's the protests being referred to

>>15316197
I'm not a full Zeekfag. I'm pro-Spacenoid in general and I think the Zabis took advantage of concerns, that were present before and continued to exist after the war, as an excuse to try and take over. I started responding in this thread when anon started saying that Spacenoids didn't deserve proper representation by virtue of the Federation funding the building of the colonies

>>15316304
If they had proper representation none of the events from Zeta and beyond should be possible, by virtue of the fact that most people live in Space and politics in the Earth Federation would heavily lean Spacenoid as a result, but instead we see the exact opposite.

>>15316180
Reading comprehension. The comparison is "Fuck ups that wouldn't have happened if there was proper representation" not "these scenarios are exactly the same"

>>15315956
I'm pretty sure the Federation started military build up and economic sanctions within a year of Side 3 declaring independence about 20 years before the began

>>15316133
Underated post

>>15316416

I'm pretty sure they only started military build up because Zeon was building warships like the Musai themselves. That's besides the point though, which is that they only paraded that build up publicly twice to my knowledge, and one of those times was after the war was over. Which is a far cry from "showing up with guns every time you see them".

>>15316500
Looked it up. This is on Gundam wiki so I'm not sure how accurate this is, but according to this http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Universal_Century
>U.C. 0060
>The Federation Forces begin an arms build-up, organizing the Earth Federation Space Force and converting Luna II into a military base. The Federation launches the Year 60 Armament Reinforcement Plan, spearheaded by the EFF. Luna II is converted into a military base.
and in
>U.C. 0062
>The Colony Republican Guard is elevated to the status of a full-fledged military, the Zeon Elite Force (ZEF).

>>15316360
You mean apart from the fact that Titan was doing something illegal? Titan original propose was an anti-Zeon force. All none Zeon citizen wold support that. Then Titan went and exceed there original mandate. Hell many in Titan did not know the full extent of Titan's action. Such as Lila, Emma, ect... Emma was officer in Titan and she did not know. Titan exceed there original propose and tried to hide it. So no. There is no evidences of Spacenoids not being allowed to vote

Too bad Zeon's ideas ultimately come to nothing as all colonies in orbit are destroyed in the future, including Side 3.

>>15316764
There is always a next "Zeon". Be it Zancare, or Cosmo Babylon

>>15316821

Technically Zanscare and Cosmo Babylon come to naught as well.

As I understand, by the time of the Correct Century, all the colonies in Earth's orbit have been destroyed (or are no longer there), leaving only whats on the Moon, on Mars, the Jupiter civilizations and (if that manga is to be believed) Proxima Centauri.

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>>15305657
Zeon did nothing wrong

>>15316302
>And this is exactly how the Brits looked at the 13 colonies
That would be factually wrong, though. They did very little to assist the America's, as opposed to Earth literally building the very ground Zeon walked on.

There is a big difference from a colony you settle in and one you build literally from scratch.

>>15305657
>Basically, if Zeon had avoided the war crimes, would they had the moral/legal high ground over the Federation?
Nope. They are a dictatorship slash feudal shithole. Any democracy, even ridden with corruption and bureaucracy, is miles better than that. Federation has the ultimate moral highground and the likeable MUH HONOR attitude of Zion is just that - likeable portrayal, nothing more.

>>15310928
>A bunch of rich faggots being mad that they had to pay their fair share of taxes to the main government
Exactly. Zion is not british colonies, Zion is confederate faggots.

>>15316893
Confederates are the same kind of class of people as the Southern half of the Founding Fathers (planters who hoard the best land run by mostly slaves, unlike the Southern working man they always trick with lies, when planter elite are the ones responsible for the South's problems) just a generation or two removed. They thought they could pull off the same trick as their grandfathers before them. This time it didn't work.

>>15315464
>Except America wasn't PHYSICALLY CONSTRUCTED BY THE BRITISH.
And space wasn't physically created by the Federation.

>>15316885
>likeable MUH HONOR attitude of Zion is just that - likeable portrayal, nothing more.

It's not even likeable.

Sure, script writers want us to like it, because they are Japs who sublimate their anal devastation from losing WWII by making their fictional Axis stand-in into people with whom viewers are supposed to sympathize, but all they actually achieve is making "good Zekes" into utter braindead retards (Bernie) or whiny hypocritical assholes (everyone in Delaz Fleet, everyone in UGLOO, everyone in Thunderbolt, etc).

>>15319190


Yes and no. The Plantation owners are individually responsible for the shit they did to the slaves/poor whites, but it was British (or European, as almost everybody was doing it), then American government institution that allowed slavery to happen in the first place.

For example, there were laws that required slave patrols, where people - even those who didn't own slaves - to help out in searching and returning escaped slaves. You can't even legally sympathize with slaves and help them.


This also means that Zeon is not even like the Confederate South, let alone the American colonists fighting for independence. The Feds did not, for example, compell Garma and Char's cadets to help out in calming (read; suppressing) the colony riots.

Spacenoids in UC before the OYW were actually quite privileged. The Earth in the UC world was heavily polluted. Most spacenoids probably wouldn't have survived if there wasn't the forced move to colonies, where they not only survived but started to thrive (if not for Zeon starting a war, how ironic).

Zeon are SJWs in space. They're privileged but they don't know how privileged they are, and then blame the very system that helped them get to where they are.

>>15321192
>And space wasn't physically created by the Federation.
Yeah but the colonies were. Last I checked Zeon lived in federation built space stations, they weren't just floating around in the vacuum of space claiming that the dark matter was their home, proceeding to do an empty space drop onto Earth.

>>15321438
Let's think about this for more than a second. If we're being honest, most of the actual construction was done by Spacenoid labor considering that they have to live there. The Federation is most likely only responsible for funding it and creating the institutions behind it. And we all know that that money is coming from spacenoid pockets as well, considering we know they're used as a tax base. Its not like only the Earthnoids and their direct ancestors directly paid for and built the colonies on their own, and then the Spacenoids came to occupy it free of charge. Its the same case with the British. They funded the initial expeditions and colonial institutions with money raised either from joint-stock business or directly from the royal crown, and sent British people to do the ground work, and the descendants of those Brits became colonials (significant amounts of whom had no choice as indentured servants). The colonists were given limited political rights, and as they developed into a full-fledged society of their own, they started to demand that they get equal standing with the rights of those in Britain or Independence. The Feddies funded the colonies with money they received as taxes, sent people from Earth to work there and then the people who were moved to space became Spacenoids (a significant amount of whom we know were forced to move there). The Spacenoids were given limited political rights, and as they developed into a full-fledged society of their own, they started to demand that they get equal standing with the rights of those on Earth or Independence

>>15321712
>If we're being honest, most of the actual construction was done by Spacenoid labor considering that they have to live there
Boy look at all these assumptions

I'm sure that the people of Zeon were living in the colony as it was being built while it was inhospitable. They did it free of charge too I'm sure, they used resources that they crafted from thin air, and all under the idea that this was going to be a separate home. Oh wait, no, what happened was earth federation engineers and construction workers worked for an unclear amount of time per space station, likely a few decades, as part of their job using earth supplies to create this place as an extension of earth territories.

>Its the same case with the British. They funded the initial expeditions and colonial institutions with money raised either from joint-stock business or directly from the royal crown, and sent British people to do the ground work, and the descendants of those Brits became colonials (significant amounts of whom had no choice as indentured servants).
Boy look at all this historical inaccuracy.

The America colonies were created as a means for the king to get rid of a new wave of religious Christians who sought religious freedom rather than follow the king's. Since the king did not want a potential uprising and rebellion, what historically always happened during these times, he said "everyone who wants religious freedom can hop on this boat and go colonize the free world." This way he got rid of the religious people who disagreed with him and might cause dissent, the plan was either that either die over there and aren't his problem or the colonies succeed and he expands his kingdom with minimal effort. Until the colonies were established fairly well they had nearly zero assistance from the British outside of traders who came and did business with the colonists, most of which were private companies not really the crown.

>>15321712

> then the people who were moved to space became Spacenoids (a significant amount of whom we know were forced to move there).

Do we? I'm pretty sure that's never been confirmed.

>>15321741

> The America colonies were created as a means for the king to get rid of a new wave of religious Christians who sought religious freedom rather than follow the king's.

They didn't want religious freedom, they wanted everyone to follow their religion and not the state/popular one. Which is the opposite of freedom, though I presume you meant "freedom" as in "free to pursue their faith and impose it on others, rather than the King's one". Still, I think the distinction is worth pointing out. I believe it was Quakers in the US's cade.

>>15321835

No, wait, I think it was Puritans, not Quakers. My apologies.

>>15321835
>They didn't want religious freedom, they wanted everyone to follow their religion and not the state/popular one. Which is the opposite of freedom, though I presume you meant "freedom" as in "free to pursue their faith and impose it on others, rather than the King's one"
Yeah that's how I wanted to phrase it but ran out of space for the post. It was called religious freedom but really it was "fuck your religion, go be test monkey pioneers and try to settle this unknown continent for me and take your religion that's different from mine with you."

>>15321865
It was puritans, yeah.

>>15321741
>I'm sure that the people of Zeon were living in the colony as it was being built while it was inhospitable.
I'm suggesting that the people who initially built the colonies were more than likely the first inhabitants. People whose jobs are building colonies in outer space are most likely going to be the first inhabitants and bring their families to live with them there since they spend so much time there anyway. The only people who would probably be able to travel back and forth at convenience would be the higher ups who just have to do bureaucratic work and not have to be directly on site. The colony construction workers and their families probably were among the first Spacenoids.
>using earth supplies to create this place as an extension of earth territories.
Maybe the first colonies were made with Earth supplies, but I think that after the first ones were up and running, they used materials from the moon and nearby asteroids, since its a lot easier to transport materials and construct materials in outer space than it is to do on Earth and then transport them up by rocket. After all we do see mining suits used for outer space, and part of the reason asteroids like Luna II and Axis are initially used is for mining materials. Either way I don't think its relevant, since Spacenoids just needed to be given equivalent political and economic standing as those still on Earth, but the Earth Federation and its defenders (you) would rather they be treated as second-class citizens than do so, enabling the cycle of war and destruction that eventually collapses society in the Earth Sphere

>>15321835
>>Do we? I'm pretty sure that's never been confirmed.
We do. In Victory Gundam people who were born n Earth but aren't officially supposed to be there are called "illegal immigrants." A lot of the conflict in Gundam comes from elites (Both Earthborn and spacenoids trying to replace them with themselves) trying to control Earth and preserve it for a select elite class of people while kicking everyone else out into space or killing them.

>>15321741
>The America colonies were created as a means for the king to get rid of a new wave of religious Christians who sought religious freedom rather than follow the king's. Since the king did not want a potential uprising and rebellion, what historically always happened during these times, he said "everyone who wants religious freedom can hop on this boat and go colonize the free world." This way he got rid of the religious people who disagreed with him and might cause dissent, the plan was either that either die over there and aren't his problem or the colonies succeed and he expands his kingdom with minimal effort. Until the colonies were established fairly well they had nearly zero assistance from the British outside of traders who came and did business with the colonists, most of which were private companies not really the crown.
All of this is only really applicable to the New England colonies. The first colony was Virginia, a get rich quick scheme. The Virginia colony eventually went into debt and got its charter revoked as a result, putting it directly under royal control, after which the king let it self-govern to a degree with the House of Burgesses. Only Pennsylvania were for religious freedom, and maybe the first Plymouth Pilgrims at first, since they wanted to separate from the Anglican Church, in contrast to the Puritans who wanted to purify the Anglican Church and actually did when they took over in the English Civil War. Most colonies required a royal charter, and were funded, supplied and set up by either Joint-Stock Company, were directly crown colonies or given to Proprietors who invested their own money into the colonies. The descendants of those original proprietors or major investors were kept involved in the colonies founded on their ancestors' money, but their properties were seized during the American Revolution. Examples include the Calverts and the Penns, both of whom's property got confiscated in the Revolution.

>>15321391
>American government institution that allowed slavery to happen in the first place.
Those institutions were put in place by planters to directly benefit them. The Plantation owners pretty much dominated American politics in the run-up to the Civil War. The South was given an advantage in politics with them counting slaves to boost their representation even though slaves couldn't vote, and most of the presidents before the Civil War were Plantation owners. Its not like the South didn't have any political power beforehand, they just finally saw that slavery wouldn't survive as long as they remained in with the Republican party winning so much.
>slave patrols, where people - even those who didn't own slaves - to help out in searching and returning escaped slaves
Is this supposed to be compared to
>The Feds did not, for example, compell Garma and Char's cadets to help out in calming (read; suppressing) the colony riots.
this? I'm a bit confused if so, because it doesn't seem comparable at all

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Did anyone during the One Year War ever bother retrieving a stranded pilot from an enemy side if they found one and was an accord ever worked out for that?

Like if a Federation pilot saw a Zeon pilot floating in the wreckage of their machine, would they be authorized to retrieve them and carry them back to base?

And how do you fly like that anyway? Do you put them in your lap or behind the seat or what?

Curious to know if they even bothered or if they just left them for their own faction to retrieve.

>>15322657

In the first episode of 08th team, the two main characters mention that they'd hate to be around if the other's friendly's come first because they don't want to be taken POW

In Thunderbolt you actually see a bunch of POWs being taken. They're just held in the hands of the suits and taken to a ship for holding.

Anyone without a EVO on is dead anyways.

>>15322679

>Anyone without a EVO on is dead anyways

Most of the time I've seen that hasn't really been an issue as they seem mandatory for a ship going into combat.

Makes me wonder if everyone on a colony is issued with one however.

>>15305721
That's because the Americans aren't French you dunderhead.

>>15322207

Those planters didn't have a tyranny. The American system was a compromise between the free and slave states.

The point here is that unlike America that had institutional slavery, the Federation did not have institutional laws against spacenoids. The Zabis were the real oppressors, and they didn't do the oppression via the Federation.

>>15313026

Sieg Zeon.

>>15324843

>Implying Zeon doesn't have compulsory military service for all persons within a certain age bracket

>>15315464
>Except America wasn't PHYSICALLY CONSTRUCTED BY THE BRITISH.

No they just stole the land that wasn't theirs to begin with. But that's a nice try anon. :^)

>>15316080
>the way the English treated the Americans and the way Earth treated Zeon is a world of difference.

>England:Even if you're on another land entirely, we're taxing you filthy colonists!

>America:Fuck you! We're our own nation now and deserve independence!

>Earth: Even though you're out in space, we're taxing you filthy colonists!

>Zeon:Fuck you! Space colonies should be independent of earth!

Not really seeing any difference here.

>>15322833
>Slavery didn't happen you guys! Those uppity ass niggas should have been more grateful

>>15325223
>Not really seeing any difference here.
One was an example of a country trying to unjustly rule a continent from an island across the sea, essentially hardly being involved in running the colonies but bleeding then dry with taxes, mandatory payments of goods that started digging into the lives of the colonists, and doing as they please to the inhabitants.

The other are people living on a space station built by Earth, with an infrastructure run by and set up by earth, supplied by Earth, and the colonists of zeon wanted to not have to give surplus goods or pay taxes to earth yet at the same time wanted earth to keep supplying them.

>>15325528
>colonists of zeon wanted to not have to give surplus goods or pay taxes to earth yet at the same time wanted earth to keep supplying them.
Not accurate. Earth put economic sanctions on Zeon, as in they couldn't conduct trade with any of the other colonies. Not being tied to international trade will fuck up your economy regardless of whether you are on Earth or in Space. America would've probably collapsed if Great Britain embargoed them after the war. They'd only have expansion west to help their economy, but that wouldn't have been nearly enough just like establishing Axis as a resource mining asteroid wasn't enough for Zeon

>>15325528
>essentially hardly being involved in running the colonies but bleeding then dry with taxes
>doing as they please to the inhabitants.
Federation acted exactly the same towards Spacenoids

>>15325558
But only after they defected, right?

>>15322833
>planters didn't have a tyranny
Define tyranny. They may have not had complete dominance over the US, but they were definitely the dominant faction in US politics before the Republicans started to rise as a result of bleeding Kansas, not to mention, apart for Appalachia, the planters had pretty much total social, economic and political control within the South. I'd also consider owning another human being as your property to be pretty tyrannical
>he American system was a compromise between the free and slave states.
When the constitution was written most people were alright with slavery but saw it as a dying institution. It wasn't until the cotton gin came around that anyone saw any chance of it lasting more than a few decades longer. Even after that, Northern merchants were fine with it because at first they could make a good price trading slaves, and later on were alright with it since that's were they got the cotton for their factories to sell. Free and Slave State didn't become a real distinction until the 1820s, and sectional division didn't bare their teeth until the 1850s, when the first attempts at compromises where tried and eventually struck down by the Supreme Court (Roger Taney, the Chief Justice in the period leading up to the Civil War, was a plantation owner appointed by one of the plantation owning presidents) based on the institutions the planters both setup and continued to maintain with their significant political influence.

>>15322833
>unlike America that had institutional slavery
I don't think they had to be literal slaves before they could revolt.
>the Federation did not have institutional laws against spacenoids
Spacenoids weren't allowed to return to Earth, unless they're with the military or some other special case. In Victory Gundam, Uso and Shakti are considered illegal immigrant who are hiding from the Federation authorities until they join up with the League Militaire.

>>15325571
What do you mean?

>>15325612
I mean, saying
>If we decide we want nothing to do with you and you sanction us that justifies us going to war with you

>>15325631
>we want nothing to do with you
Strawman. Wanting control over their own affairs =/= Not wanting to have trade with any of the other colonies. The Federation followed up their independence with economic sanctions and a military buildup. Zeon tried building up their resources with establishing a Jupiter fleet and Axis and military in an attempt to compensate, and then after a decade or two then declared war, as a result of the economic isolation. If the Brits had done the same, America would be a third world country, if it even did manage to survive. You're skipping a lot of steps to rephrase the issue

>>15325667
That's not that I was implying. I'm saying that
>Americans saying "we don't want to be taxed without representation or whatever by the British" and the British saying "too bad" so there was a war
Isn't the same as
>Zeon saying "we don't want to be controlled by the Earth" and the Federation saying "Okay, we just won't trade with you then" and so Zeon drops a colony on them

>>15325683
I know it's not the same situation. I'm arguing that what the Federation did to Zeon was actually worse (from the perspective of a former colony) than what the Brits did to America. If the Brits had let the colonies go and then embargoed the US, then the US either wouldn't exist (collapsed and/or reconquered by the Brits, like Zeon was by the Federation) or it would've turned into a third world shithole. And with people like Hamilton running around with significant influence who legit wanted an authoritarian monarchy to run America, I can definitely see the US going the way of the Zabis if they were placed in the same situation as Zeon was.

>muh economic sanctions
>side 3 relies on Earth support even though the entire political philosophy its government was founded on was about abandoning Earth to preserve it
[citations needed]

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>>15305657

Well, the Federation is a bungling power that has proven itself inept and possibly unfit to govern it's colonies or far flung assets.

Now I know I know they may take the route of pragmatism when they have to, but sometimes they seem to engineer their own problems.

Case in point. I read that in Crossbone Gundam that the primary reason that Crux Dogatie wanted to level devastation against the Federation (and Earth) was because they not only rejected his request for Jovian independence, but the then 80 year old president to apparently marry a woman (possibly young enough to be his daughter or grand daughter) for no other reason than to keep an eye on his activities (she must have been terrible at that function given what he managed later in life).

>>15325558
There was only oen other game in Twon in UC apart from Zeon. That was the Federation. Again Zeon was already independent

>>15325667
Zeon had a military before the Feds

>>15326454
What does this have to do with the post you linked?

>>15326359

>but the then

*But then forced the

>>15326462
The Federation had a military before anyone. This doesn't make any sense. Zeon didn't have a real military until after the Federation started building up their already-existing military forces. Before that all they had was a Militia. The only thing Zeon managed to get ahead of the Federation militarily was on Mobile Suit Development and actually declaring the war

>>15326480

I can believe that given I've read the Federation had a fleet of 17,000 warships at the start of the war.

Not that it mattered when most of their Salamis class and Magellan class ships were floating wreckage in the wars opening weeks.

>>15326531
Well, mobile suits are just that good

>economic sanctions

It's hard to put economic sanctions on a country when there are only two countries.

Zeon didn't get to trade with the Earth Federation because the Earth Federation didn't want anything Zeon had and had no reason to want to give them anything freely.

>>15326841

Then it seems like aggression was the right choice, even if it's execution was poor.

>>15326841
>Its a "tripfag doesn't know how into economics" episode

>>15327035
>Then it seems like aggression was the right choice
>'WE WANT TO BE INDEPENDENT BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP GIVING US FREE SHIT'
really

>>15326480
Actually the Federation did not have one

>>15327645
In both Origin and prime timelines, the Federation has had a military for decades before. Unicorn established that there was an original Salamis in UC0001 that was the namesake of the Salamis type ships we see from 0079 onward.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/unicorn-ova/salamis.htm

>>15327452
>>15327452
>FREE SHIT
Trade=/=Free Shit
For some reason, you rabid Federation supporters seem to think that the Federation was giving all of the colonies aid(even though colonies were mostly self-sufficient and were used as a significant source of the Federation's tax base) and economic sanctions just means cutting this alleged aid(which again would be funded by mostly spacenoid taxes, so not really). Learn what economic sanctions are before you post like a retard. Here's the Wikipedia article if you're too lazy to look it up yourself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sanctions
>Economic sanctions are commercial and financial penalties applied by one or more countries against a targeted country, group, or individual [1]
>Economic sanctions may include various forms of trade barriers, tariffs, and restrictions on financial transactions.[2]
>Economic sanctions are not necessarily imposed because of economic circumstances—they may also be imposed for a variety of political, military, and social issues. Economic sanctions can be used for achieving domestic and international purposes.It means shit like trade restrictions and freezing Bank accounts of Zeon businesses wherever possible.

>>15328600
>It means shit like trade restrictions and freezing Bank accounts of Zeon businesses wherever possible.
This wasn't supposed to be part of greentext in that post

>>15315313
>Island can't rule a continent.

And yet it ruled a third a third of the world.

>>15311746
Technically it was the American's tea. And to be fair a lot of the people involved with the Boston Tea Party had been in favor of the high taxes on tea, but then got pissed off because they weren't the ones chosen to collect that tax.

>>15325598
And by which time, the Royal Navy was stamping out slavery for decades using force.

>>15327670
Kept getting confuse with Space Force. Thee Space Federation did not have a space force until Zeon had already a space force.
"Known as the Earth Federation Space Forces, (or EFSF for short) it is the space branch of the Earth Federation Forces. The Earth Federation Space Force was created to counter the perceived military threat from the then Republic of Zeon, which had broken away from the Federation when it declared independence."

>>15327670
The Salamis was created in UC 0070
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Salamis-class

>>15328802
See>>15316549

>>15328814
That's Gundam wiki, don't trust Gundam Wiki.

>>15316190
At least the UED are still bad and we didn't get the shit they pulled with Kerrigan and the plot device/ancient evil crap.

>>15328600

It's normally held to be a total embargo rather than sanctions, though looking up sourced stuff like Ultimatemark (his timeline can only be seen using the wayback machine now sadly) it doesn't say whether it was an embargo or sanctions, just that there was economic pressure. Which could be either. An embargo makes more sense though, since Side 3 wasn't providing anything the other Sides weren't as far as we know, and an embargo would isolate them where sanctions would just make things more difficult or expensive.

>>15329578
I'm pretty sure it wasn't an embargo because Side 3 still had dealings and communications with places like some lunar cities and Side 6.

Also, Side 3 was able to have ships running around carrying out operations to secure and move around several asteroids such as A Baoa Qu (two asteroids strapped together), Solomon, Axis, Pezun, etc and the resourcing operations that would have involved major construction and transport efforts where they mined Solomon and A Baoa Qu clean and turned the remaining structure into factories and military bases.

>>15325088
You've never seen anyone complain about being drafted. So everyone's totally okay and very selfless people, or there just isn't a draft

>>15329602
>dealings and communications with places like some lunar cities and Side 6
Was that from before or during the One Year War? I know Zeon had interactions with them, but it was mostly from the helping Side 6 get independence with "Zaku I"s just before the one year war and Granada quickly being taken over by Zeon pretty quickly due to proximity. Maybe there was some smuggling going on between the two since they were pretty close, but I don't know anything for sure

>>15329602

An embargo doesn't prevent communications, and even dealings are plausible - though not legally obviously. Still, it wouldn't be impossible for them to do illegal deals. Nor would an embargo prevent them from sourcing, mining and using asteroids on their own. Unless they had the help of other sides in an official capacity I don't see how any asteroid operations show them as being sanctions.

>>15329602
IIRC weren't Axis and Pezun the only asteroids that Zeon had developed on their own? I thought A Baoa Qu and Solomon were Feddie bases that Zeon took in the inital stages of the war?

>>15327452

A nation will find a way to grow and obtain the resources that it requires to do so.

If not economically then militarily.

>>15329686
A Baoa Qu and Solomon were developed by Zeon. They weren't in Federation hands until after the war.

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>>15324843

>>15329905
And for space we call those FUCKING ASTEROIDS.

It's not the Federation's fault Zeon was too lazy to mine its own shit.

For a nation established around an ideology of leaving Earth behind/as a nature preserve, Zeon sure is fucking obsessed with going back to it and pumping it for all the resources they can.

>>15337391
Well, the idea was for the Federation to be demoralized and completely surrender after the colony drops and first few battles, but once Revil does his Zeon is exhausted speech, the war is extended and they have to bring their forces on Earth and use the preexisting mines on Earth to fuel their war machine on unfamiliar territory. And by this point in time it is pretty obvious that the Zabis have long moved past Zeon Daikun's teachings as anything besides propaganda for them to take over the Earth Sphere.

Were Garma and Dozle guilty of war crimes to the extent that their other siblings were?

In the origin, Dozle mentioned he'd be on trial for them, which seems a bit odd given he didn't have anything to do with Side 1,2 or 4, the Solar Ray or any of that.

>>15338262
Dozle was in command during the Battle of Loum, which means he was totes mcgoats fine with dropping colonies. It's highly unlikely he was in the dark about the gassing as well, given that it was his branch of the military doing it.

>>15337673
Say more about Zeon than anything else that the best plan they had was "Hope our enemy gives up"

>>15338276

I thought Ghiren had complete control of the military and could order troops under his siblings to do his bidding?

>>15338321
Feddies were going to give up. Only reason they didn't was General Revil escaping from Zeon and claiming that Zeon was exhausted w/ some rising speech. If it wasnt for that, the OYW would've been called the One Month War

>>15338334
That's not how the chain of command works, anon.

>>15329640

>The peasants living in a totalitarian propagandist state never complain

Huh

>>15329640

We saw a couple of guys who just wanted to go home and had no interest in the war during 0079 didn't we?

>>15338458
It would have been called the One Year Massacre as the victorious Zeon purge Earth of as many people as they can before their upper ranks fall to infighting and corruption without an external enemy to distract them.

>>15338321

It was a calculated risk as they imagined the Federation couldn't stomach the lengths Zeon was willing to go to for victory.

Though truth be told, they likely did more to hurt Deikun's original ideology, given Zeon all but proved you were better off taking your chances on Earth than among the Colonies should war break out.