What evidence is there that Kircheis was a better tactician than

>>15077561
They never really show it in the anime. He does end up blowing away the Battle of Amritsar.

I always saw him as the krutch/rock that the empire needed. He was deeply grounded in reinhard and his own founding principles because of their childhood and the fact he would never be where he was if it hadnt been for reinhards unwavering ambition. So maybe not a superior tactician on his own. But why did Hitler lose the war? Because he was lost in war towards the end.

>>15077561
Some anon once claimed that Reinhard was only good for offensive battles but Kircheis was less good at offensive battles but made up for it by being better at defensive battles. I can't remember why.

>>15077853

I recall an anon, possibly the same one, once going through Kircheis' battle record and saying he had a better record than Reinhard - though I don't recall if it was Reinhard up to the point Kircheis died, or in total. That Kircheis lost less units, had cleaner sweeps and was more objective in his assessments or something.

>>15077561
When it came to pure strategy Reinhard it's debatably an unsurpassed golden child whom can conceive amazing plans and always pull out strategic victories, putting himself in situations where even at a tactical loss he wins strategically. Reinhard's weakness is he is proud, stubborn, and head strong making him one to take foolish risks or get riled easily.

Yang is a tactical genius who is unsurpassed in thinking on his feet and deconstructing enemy strengths. Yang's problem is that he struggles to gain more than temporary victories and gets by on a lot of bluffing, many of his plans rode a knife edge and barely succeeded. Yang also fights for ideology rather than himself which limits his scope and causes him to be nearsighted at times rather than ambitious like Reinhard. This means that even though Yang can come up with the right answer quickly, he often hesitates.

Kircheis was a medium between the two. He was skilled and brilliant like them both, however he kept himself more grounded than Reinhard while also going for a faster and more secure approach than Reinhard. Also instead of fighting for himself or an ideology, Kircheis fight due to an undying loyalty to his commander making him obedient but also unwilling to fail. Also of the 3 Kircheis is much more a soldier.

Ultimately Yang and Reinhard are far greater leaders and tacticians, but Kircheis is a greater military officer and field commander. If I were an admiral is want to serve under Reinhard or Yang, if I was a leader I'd want Kircheis as my subordinate, and if I was a soldier I'd probably want to be on Kircheis' ship.

>>15077561

There's lots of unsustained arguments that Kircheis was amazing. It's hinted at that he was at least very good, and Reinhardt believed that if he had cooperated with Kircheis, he wouldn't have lost to Yang. This might just be because Kircheis would have stopped Reinhardt from slamming his head into a wall because of pride though.

Likewise people like to say Reinhardt was strategically better than Yang just because Reinhardt won the war, even though it's pretty obvious that the reason Yang lost was because he chose not to turn FPA into the military dictatorship it needed to become in order to salvage their defense. Meanwhile, during the Empire's invasion of FPA, Yang was running loops around Reinhardt both on a strategical and tactical level.

The thing Reinhardt had over Yang was a willingness to win.

>>15078136
>The thing Reinhardt had over Yang was a willingness to win.
That's what makes him better strategically. He does not settle for small victories and pushes his advantage. More than once Yang had a chance to secretly fuck over the imperials in the long term but didn't due to fear of temporary loss, not willing to risk lives for a shitty command structure when the FPA still existed, and to not "become greedy." It's debatable that had their positions been reversed with Yang in the well prepared side while Reinhard was the underdog then Yang would have smashed him, but ultimately him being a historian rather than a soldier is as much a hindrance as it is a benefit.

Much like everyone in this show, Yang's personality is one of his biggest detriments as a military leader. The only person who refused to let personal misgivings interfere with their judgement was Oberstein, the only person in the show to do nothing wrong.

>>15078176
Yang is handicapped by having to make the best tactical moves he can within the confines of the FPA's shitty strategy. Reinhard controlled both strategic and tactical planning.

>>15078201
This Yang pretty much schmoozes his way into complete control of his fleet and the fleets therein even before getting controll of the whole damn thing a bit before the series.

Yang is gimped by the FPA the whole time, and when the FPA is gone he really doesn't have the man power to do everything he could.

That said the lack of willingness at times was there, but it didn't help that on top of that he was dealt a shitty hand in the form of a government that held him back most of the time. Then again that can also be chalked up to his lack of ambition.

>>15078201
>Yang is handicapped by having to make the best tactical moves he can within the confines of the FPA's shitty strategy
Yes but unfortunately there are too many variables to say one side would definitely win if the positions were traded off. Yang worked in a system that even when it had a stronghold he was overlooked despite being already a prodigious war hero. Remember that in both the original movie and the battle of Astate Reinhard was at a severe disadvantage yet pulled out massive victories. Now if we consider it a world where their positions were truly reversed it's hard to say how things would go as too many variables would change.

Remember as much as Yang won tactically, he made several near sighted decisions and more than once couldn't pull the trigger when he could have gained massive upper hand. He ultimately lacks tenacity and ambition which is one of his greatest shortcomings and causes him to not be a true strategic genius.

>>15078210

The suggestion is definitely there that if he was a bit more ambitious or ruthless he could have gained political control.of the FPA and done more. He didn't because it ran against his beliefs and character, but he probably could have.

>>15078229
Oh yeah it was there quite a bit, and Schenkopp in my eyes was right. Hell look at the loyalty his fleet had at Iserlohn post fall of the FPA, he could of it just went against everything he believed in. Which is why I liked Yang so much. (Conversly I like Reinhard for the opposite reason weirdly enough)

He could of but he wouldn't do it. Even then his goal of getting one bastion, even a small one of Democracy towards his final days was still a noble one.

>>15078229
It's also very likely had he done so he would have lost a key trait that allowed him to hold out as long as he did and pull off so many victories. He did a lot of crazy and stupid shit that no one who wanted to take over would ever do. Also despite being a genius at military decisions, he was openly regarded as being so retarded at politics he was questioned if he was socially inept.

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>>15078067
I felt like Reinhard had this uncanny ability of being in the right place at the right time. He was obviously a genius tactician but at the same time he just happened to be incredibly lucky. I'm pretty sure the show even acknowledged this a couple times. I'm fairly certain Yang was superior to Reinhard as a military genius. Reinhard was naturely gifted but Yang was older and more more experienced. I recall there was that arc where Yang was beating the ever loving shit out of Reinhard with a signicantly handicapped armada and Reinhard was getting pretty flustered over losing over and over again.

I think Kircheis' main influence was as Reinhard's conscience. Together they would have absolutely crushed Yang. Kircheis talent was that he could see what Reinhard couldn't and make him act on it.

>>15078303
You're thinking of that fight Reinhard only survives because FPA command ordered Yang to stand down (which itself only happened because Hilda acted independently in getting Mittermeyer to capture Heinessen).

>>15078303
Well Reinhard is very analogous to Alexander the Great, who also was greatly aided in his conquests by unbelievable luck. It's an age of saying that fortune favors the bold/strong, and that certainly rang true for Reinhard. Yang's strength came from practical experience but also his being a historian have him a deeper insight to psychology of his enemies and how similar people have met their downfall.

Reinhard is very stubborn and easy to piss off, he was a genius but he needed someone to keep him under control. Reinhard vs Yang on equal footing likely means a decided victory for the hero of El Facil. But if Reinhard has Kircheis by his side, or better yet a scenario where he listens to Oberstein as closely as he did to Kircheis, then I think the skirt admiral has the advantage.

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>>15078328
That's worded a bit better than I could have done. Watched Logh about 6 years ago so I'm a bit foggy., but yeah I do recall Yang being big into history and knowing his enemies. Was pretty great that he was able to know his enemies better then they knew themselves.

>>15078303
Kircheis was to Reinhard as Yang was to Yang's superiors. The first difference is that Reinhard cared about Kircheis in a way Yang's superiors never cared for him. The other difference is that Reinhard's arrogance prevented him from listening to Kircheis's advice, unlike Yang's superiors.

>>15078328
>age of saying
Age old saying*

>>15078339
Glad you approve of my post, friend.

Yang's greatest strengths was psychology and just knowing what works. He even has a point where he talks about how much he loves pincer movements and wishes he could launch is own all the time because, despite what many naysayers about the tactics in this show say, the pincer formation historically is one of the most absolutely successful maneuvers you can do and historically it seldomly loses battles.

The battle of Vermilion shows the strengths of Yang but also two of his biggest weaknesses. He predicts that due to Reinhard's nature he will put himself on the front lines, due to his understanding of psychology specifically for figures similar to Reinhard. His weakness shines twofold, though. First the one everyone points out that he bowed down to the FPA orders due to his devotion for democracy. But his less talked about weakness is his desire to serve the people rather than to win. What would killing Reinhard accomplish? He would be forcing over half the galaxy into absolute ruin rather than its current golden era of prosperity all for a victory that could only benefit his personal ambitions. To be a strategic genius you need a level of controlled greed, but Yang was a meager man who wanted a quiet life.

>>15078176
>Oberstein, the only person in the show to do nothing wrong.

What about the Westerland Massacre, that would later cause deep psychological stress in Reinhard?

>>15078810
He made the right decision. Had they not allowed that to happen the war would have been prolonged, Braunschweig could have gained more influence/support, supplies could have run out, at least 10x that planets population in soldier causalities, ruin brought to the imperial economy, and worst of all the FPA could have recovered from their coup and launched an offensive. It was a harsh call to make and sacrificed a lot of civilians but it was done to preserve not just the Lohengrahm empire but also the well-being of the empire at large.

It's a decision few could make, but Oberstein did it and he chose to shoulder that burden. Oberstein made sure to be the villain and make all the harsh decisions so he could deflect all blame from Reinhard onto himself. Oberstein not only did nothing wrong, he is arguably the second most important factor in creating the Lohengrahm empire after Reinhard himself.

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>YFW you watch LOGH for the first time

>>15078893
This, he's hero they need but don't deserve

>>15078388

Excellent points on Yang's weaknesses. Does this thinking on Yang's part shine through in the show/dialogue or did you surmise it more offhand?

>>15078987
Yang mentions in the show through his love of history he learns about people he deals with today. He is able to surmise decisions of Bittenfeld and Reinhard's actions based on their personalities and historically what people with those personalities did in similar situations. He has a talk with Julian where he openly discusses psychology and how is one of the most important facets in defeating/dealing with people during war. I want to say he discussed psychology once with Dusty too, but not at the same length as with Julian.

As for tactics he mentions a few times basing his plans off history, but the one he really went into it was discussing pincer movements. He says during that period he greatly admires it for it's success rate and likes to use what works historically. This fits with several of his other plans such as his Trojan horse tactic that allowed him to capture Iserlohn or how he destroyed the Artemis necklace using a method Al Heinessen used to escape the imperials.

Some of how I describe Yang isn't directly stated but I feel cab be quite easily inferred given his actions throughout the series. His tactics consistently utilize psychology and historically proven tactics.

If you recall, Yang always refers to his watching of documentaries and reading books as studying/preparing. He talks at points like he's baffled that people do certain plans that have been done in the past. One of Yang's most deadly assets is he is a student of history, and he can come up with so many plans so quickly because he's studied multiple scenarios where similar events unfolded. That's why some of his parting words to Julian were that history might be the most important field of study, especially as a soldier.

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>>15078947

This post spoke to my soul.

Kircheis never failed at anything he did. Like ever. That alone makes him "better" than anyone else.

>>15081633
He failed to survive long enough to see Reinhard conquer the galaxy like he promised. That's arguably the biggest failure of all since it was literally his life's devotion.

I mean it literally happened like 2 years later. Way to fucking blow it, Kircheis.

We all know the only person to never do anything wrong was Oberstein.

>>15081895
Wasn't it Oberstein's conviencing Reinhard to not let Kircheis be the only one with a gun around him while taking Geiersberg that got Kircheis? Ergo, it's Oberstein's fault.

>>15077561
The fact that Kircheis is compared with Yang and Reinhard is based on two things. During the Battle of Amritsar, Kircheis puts Yang in a tight spot. A really tight spot, that Yang is handwaved out of. The second thing is Reinhard saying "We would've kicked your shit in had Kircheis still been alive" after the Battle of Vermillion.

On the Battle of Amritsar, Kircheis showed himself quite competent, but I think the tight spot was 90% the strategic conditions for Yang's Fleet. At pretty much the first opportunity Yang slips away unscathed, and Kircheis let it happen because he's soft. Love the guy, but it's a legitimate weakness in an admiral. Who knows how many Imperial lives were damned when Yang lived to fight another day.

As to Reinhard's quote, this is less to do with Kircheis' competency as an admiral, but more to do with the effect he has on Reinhard. Yang might not have found weakness to take advantage of during his desperate campaign against the Imperial invasion had Kircheis kept Reinard's head cool.

>>15078067
I dunno about your assessment of Yang. He was able to see not only Reinhard's battle strategy, but also his grand strategy (as evidenced by warning to Bucock about the prisoner swap prior to the FPA coup). When he was given high command in the end days of the first FPA-Empire war, his strategy was flawless. It played entirely on Reinhard's weakness.

>>15078987
I feel like it shines pretty strongly in his hesitation to pull the trigger on Reinhard. I might be wrong, but he's hesitating before he even receives the order for peace. This shows he's more than just a democracy loving motherfucker, but I feel like you can sense it much earlier.

>>15081938
Should've mastered kung fu.

>>15082369
I mean...yeah he should of...I guessed.

That said I don't think Kung Fu was a common skill among the common folk, of space prussia.

>>15082606
Even if it isn't, Reinhard knows how to catch a sword I think Kircheis could catch bullets.

>>15082612
But it was a laser.

That said Reinhard and everyone spent the rest of the series acting like Kircheis could shit rainbows (To be fair shit would of been better had he not died) so he probably could catch a laser the glorious bastard.

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>>15081938
>Wasn't it Oberstein's conviencing Reinhard to not let Kircheis be the only one with a gun around him while taking Geiersberg that got Kircheis?
This is the way the admirals construed it to rationalize it, yes. But in reality Oberstein was right in advising Reinhard to treat Kircheis like the other admirals because favoritism causes dissent in the ranks. Everyone remembers him fondly and praises him, but while he was alive there was a lot of petty jealousy since ultimately just because Kircheis was his friend their word didn't equal as much as theirs despite having the same rank. Oberstein also made the point "who is leading these people: you or Kircheis?" It's a sign of weakness that ultimately one man had so much sway on his decisions, he was far too dependent on Kircheis to the point you could almost question who is in charge. You combine this with the fact that nepotism literally is a form of corruption and his favoritism of Kircheis was a danger to his regime. He can be his close friend and advisor, but he cannot be an equal to the Emperor.

Kircheis death in general, after the situation that allowed it, is also not Obersteins fault. It's the fault of literally almost everyone else. It's the fault of the shitty security for not checking the body, it's the fault of the admirals for not helping in subduing the would be assassin, and it's Reinhard's fault for doing a trial for war criminals so informally even though many wanted him dead. This also proved a massive failing on Kircheis part because Reinhard almost died, remember there is only one person who threw their body in front of that rocket: Oberstein. Oberstein, without hesitating, instantly was willing to sacrifice himself to save Reinhard.

In the end, the Lohengrahm empire almost doesn't deserve how loyal and productive Paul von Oberstein was.

>>15082830

The irony of Oberstein is that he was so perfectly rational in all his decisions that when he died people thought he got himself killed on purpose.

>>15082356
>He was able to see not only Reinhard's battle strategy, but also his grand strategy
It was painfully obvious. Julian, Dusty, and Bucock also foresaw this. News of the unrest in the empire was well known and yet suddenly they want to do a PoW exchange? They knew this was suspicious but no one in the FPA adminstration gave a fuck what the military thought. The politicians were corrupt morons who only cared about their careers so they would be hailed for "bringing their boys home."

>When he was given high command in the end days of the first FPA-Empire war, his strategy was flawless. It played entirely on Reinhard's weakness.
His strategy was a hit and run guerrilla method that is used to stretch out a large force and abuse home field advantage. He knew that this would frustrate someone like Reinhard and a man like him would take an unnecessarily risky final gambit that would put his life at risk to end the war in total victory. You can argue that the first one is or isn't due to his knowledge of history but this strategy is one that has a lot of historical success in protecting homelands from large invading forces, it was used by American colonists and more extreme versions were used in Vietnam/Korea to name a few times it was used, but his surmising of Reinhard's reaction was entirely psychology and predicting his movements by comparing it to the actions of former, similar people.

I'm not saying it's as simple as two basic tricks that made Yang such a great tactician. Being a student of history to his degree is a unique trait, and being able to forge answers/strategies around this knowledge and insight is an even rarer talent. You add this in with his natural prowess for quick, tactical thinking and you have an amazing military leader.

>>15082356
>On the Battle of Amritsar, Kircheis showed himself quite competent, but I think the tight spot was 90% the strategic conditions for Yang's Fleet. At pretty much the first opportunity Yang slips away unscathed, and Kircheis let it happen because he's soft. Love the guy, but it's a legitimate weakness in an admiral. Who knows how many Imperial lives were damned when Yang lived to fight another day.

M8 that was all Bittenfeld's fault for being a gloryhound and Reinhard's for not noticing before that point. It had nothing to do with Kircheis being slow or 'merciful' toward Yang, it was all Reinhard noticing too late to do anything about it in time.

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>>15078947
>MFW I watch LoGH again

>>15077561
Kircheis is literally the only guy who never got baited once in the entire series, the only time anything remotely bad happened other than his death would be thanks to Bittenfeld fucking up and that was practically the first time Kircheis even 'worked' with the guy not to mention he literally came from the other side of the enclosure.

You can't say the same for Reinhardt. He makes quite a few decisions that comes back to bite him in the ass sooner or later all of which were within his authority to prevent happening.

It's just written that way, plain and simple. Kircheis dies early, so there's pretty much no chance for him to fuck things up. Reminder that statistically Bittenfeld achieves the most MVP kills of all officers and all he does is cruise control straight at the enemy with his fleet of nigger dicks.

What is shown and what is told are completely in contrast, just like Stardust Memory OVA where Gato is hyped up by all the characters only to get fucked up in 0:30 within episode 1 then job to some scrub over and over.

/m/ shit is notorious for this kinda thing.

>>15078328
>better yet a scenario where he listens to Oberstein as closely

That's how Westerland happened. Oberstein literally made zero positive influence on Reinhardt. Every single fucking decision ultimately comes back to bite him in the ass because Oberstein is an edgelord who tries to veil himself under the ends justify the means when he constantly fails to achieve the ends in the first place.

Guy's best success is literally all the background paper work and administration which the novels and OVA do not touch upon and all and is no different than Fischer being the God Hand of microing fleets. You hear about it, but it's never ever touched upon and you're just supposed to accept it cause Tanaka is a hack when it comes to writing warfare and politics.

>>15078810
N O T H I N G W R O N G

>>15085066
Had Westerland not happened Duke Braunschweig's forces would not have mutinied and would not have lost all of his support and the civil war would have easily lasted many more months. Oberstein was right when he said that they had no solid plans for actually attacking Geirsburg fortress and that the nobles, while inept, still commanded a vast amount of wealth and military strength.

After Westerland Braunschweig lost all of his remaining allies and the Geirsburg garrison handed the fortress over to Reinhardt on a silver platter. Honestly, it wasn't the right thing to do but it was the event that ended the civil war.

Also I read the books (first 2 in english) and they were dry, especially compared to the OVA.

>>15079075
>or how he destroyed the Artemis necklace using a method Al Heinessen used to escape the imperials.

I still think Yang was wrong in how he handled the coup attempt. By rushing to destroy the Artemis necklace in order to kill the coup leaders he set up the FPA for defeat later on. From the show it seemed like the coup was already losing support and if he just waited a little while longer they would have surrendered or at least fled Heinessen. Especially after the propaganda speech that Yang put out about the coup being controlled by the empire, which actually turned out to be true.

>>15085054
>only to get fucked up in 0:30 within episode 1 then job to some scrub over and over.

Have you ever seen 0083? Because that is not what happens.

>>15085367
>Also I read the books (first 2 in english) and they were dry

Japanese writing usually is unless you are reading high school light novel crap.

>>15078810
It was part of his keikaku to get Reinhard to produce an heir.

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Streaming logh right now, get in here.

weebcrew.moe

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>>15084866
>MFW Im reading the books and noticing the differences they made in the anime

>Castrop rebellion was more active with Castrop leading a fleet against Mariendorf lands, it ended when Kircheis came and pulled tactical genius on Castrop after which Castrops own men killed him
>Iserlohn and Gaiesburg fortress were both giant murder balls without liquid metal outer hull, instead they had ungodly amounts of armor made of some scifi steel and crystalline fiber, Iserlohns docks were behind a massive gate that could be forced to remain shut if you rammed some destroyers into it
>Thor hammer and Gaiesburg version were apparently instead of a single moving gun multiple guns all over the outer hull
>FPA had recoilless rifles in their battle on the outer hull of Iserlohn as well as tomahawks and some small arms
>Müller and Kempf pulled off their attack by first baiting the Iserlohn into a main cannon match with the Gaiesburg while sending Müllers fleet to the opposite side of the fortress to start bombardment and shit
>For some reason there wasn't guns on the rear of the fortress i guess

tl;dr: The anime made changes that imo ended up making the series better.

>>15078810
Reminder that Reinhard put his peepee into the Fraulein because his Westerland PTSD got triggered

>>15089910
Oberstein did everything right.

>>15088363
Yeah, I agree. A lot of the scenes involving Iserlohn in the anime strike me as some of the most distinctive *and* beautiful of any scifi anime from that era. There's something breathtaking about watching Thor's Hammer emerge from a metal sea, and watching warriors duel with axes and jetbikes upon its reflective surface.

>>15090456
http://is2.4chan.org/wsg/1483847770308.webm

The best expository scene ever made

>>15084224
That's what I meant by "first opportunity", though I will grant there was not much Kircheis could do once Yang started his withdrawal.

>>15082839
You kind of misunderstand what I'm saying, I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment that he's a tactical genius who uses his knowledge of history and psychology of the enemy to get where he needs to go, I'm saying he is strategically adept as well, and if he uses his knowledge of history and psychology in strategy then power to him.

His failures to defeat Reinhard strategically have little to do with any hesitations (well there was that big one, but even then there was no guarantees that just firing on Reinhard would have been good for humanity) or nearsightedness. It's more like a near-reach. His ideology, as you said, restricts his actions. He can never be a dictator like Reinhard, and so he can never match Reinhard strategically. I just don't think it's fair to hold a Fleet Admiral to a Dictator, one has limits and the other doesn't. I'm not trying to say Yang is perfect, as he really did hesitate at the wrong time, but his biggest problems are the FPAs failures, not his own.

>>15091385
>His failures to defeat Reinhard strategically have little to do with any hesitations
Literally several of his failures are due to hesitations. In the original movie he could have saved countless lives if he acted sooner, arguably the same could be said at Armlitsar, and when he created the final Yang fleet before returning to Iserlohn several times he hesitated and things got worse for it. A lot of his hesitation ended up creating better situations but he lost a fair bit of ground due to it.

I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying that Yang isn't a strategic genius and is only carried by his knowledge of history and psychology. I think that knowledge is an essential tool that elevated his already outstanding strategic prowess beyond his competitors. But I stand by he is an inferior strategist as a whole to Reinhard due to his hesitation and devotion to his ideals.

>>15088363

Also reading the novel. Apparently, Jessica Edwards still showed up in the memorial service like in the animated version.

>>15095053
Yup, then got walked out by Yang (who had come to the service for some reason and was using this as an excuse to get out of that self-aggrandizement of Trünicht).