Should we have an old /m/ manga general? Discussions of Yokoyama,

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I'd like to get into Yokoyama despite my reservations about certain awkward "not really getting Tezuka aesthetics" traits of his art style, but the thing I really want to read (Tetsujin 28) is not scanlated at all.

I love all the other authors you listed.

>>14676397
>despite my reservations about certain awkward "not really getting Tezuka aesthetics" traits of his art style
Please kill yourself.

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>>14676418
A lot of his drawings look like Tezuka but with stiffer poses and less expressive faces

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>>14676491
Stuff like this isn't extremely Tezuka-esque but honestly sucks

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>>14676493
But to be fair I'll have to post some good pages too

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>>14676496

>>14676397
That's a yes?

>>14676496
What's wrong with that page?

>>14676493

It's a lot better than your art, BusterBeam.

>>14676988
BusterBeam still visits /m/?

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>>14676156
The original Kamen Rider went to shit once it dropped the dark and gritty art style.

>>14676493
That looks nothing like Tezuka. For instance, the art didn't randomly morph between panels. It's actually consistent.

>>14676988
Assuming that's him, his posts have a lot more value than your awful shitposts, Mario.

>>14677247
Why do you like to shit on Tezuka that much?

>>14677335
I like his non-mature stuff.

>>14677247
>Assuming that's him, his posts have a lot more value than your awful shitposts, Mario.

Great, now he's getting followers. As this board was not shitty enough already.

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>It's a busterbeam post

>>14678228
I said his posts have more value than your shitposts, you sperg.

what is your favourite tezuka manga? Mine is Dororo and then Alabaster, always think its funny because tezuka hated Alabaster.

>>14678699
Dororo was good until it ended. Hoping the anime has a better ending. The artwork in it is better than anything else Tezuka has done. Especially the monsters.

>>14678699
I like Unico.

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Go Nagai's art used to be cute as fuck, but then Devilman happened.

>>14680898
>fungyaa
oh wow a lucky star reference

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>>14680898
He can be cute anytime he feels like it.

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>>14676932
Nothing; I meant to say that it's a good page, like the next one I posted.

He could draw great stuff from time to time but often his art just feels too stiff to me. I still want to check out the Tetsujin 28 manga though since it seems to be full of iconic, influential ideas.
>>14678699
Fuck Tezuka's stance on Alabaster; he was just too much of a care bear so he had to disown things he made during his depressive misanthropic phase. It's a wonderful fever dream of a series and obviously very honest as a venting work instead of just being edgy for the pure shock value. Also people who say it's "an example of how he failed at serious seinen gekiga manga for manly adult otaku such as myself 8-)" are wrong since it ran in a shonen magazine.

I thought Swallowing the Earth was great too and that's another manga Tezuka disowned.

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>>14676988
Being better than my scribbles doesn't make it good though.
>>14677247
That was my point though; not even the eyes are Tezuka-like. But I don't think it's a good serious style either.

That said:
>morphing
Tezuka's art is a lot more on-model and safe than the artists that came after him. People like Ishinomori and Monkey Punch went much, much further with the wacky no-fucks-given cartooniness; the only exception I've personally seen from Tezuka was Swallowing the Earth.

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>>14683123
Meanwhile someone like Ishinomori could balance silly and gritty art in the same series and both looked awesome. Compare this page...

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>>14683126
...to this page from a story that was meant to be down-to-earth and creepy (fantastic fucking chapter by the way).

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>>14683123
>That was my point though
Well, I guess I should admit "isn't extremely Tezuka-esque" was bad wording.

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>>14684727

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>>14684731

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>>14684749

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>This is Nagai's art in the 60s (Go-chan no Fantaji Waraudo Ban)

Everyone was ripping off Tezuka back then.

>>14684762
Doesn't look like Tezuka to me

>>14684767
Ishimori

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>>14684769
Ishinomori's style was not just a copy of Tezuka's and that page is pretty obviously different from either of their styles.

Inb4 that one crazy fucking guy who's still monumentally asshurt over nothing goes "WOW YOU'RE SO EDGY AND COOL AND SCHOOLING US, YOU'RE SOOO SUPERIOR [rolleyes]" no I'm not, I also made the mistake of thinking Ishinomori was drawing "Tezuka style" before I seriously looked into his work.

>>14684731
I just feel like this is enforcing my comment about Yokoyama drawing stiff characters.
>>14684749
I fucking love Black Ox though, one of my favorite mecha designs of all time. The guy was great at designing iconic robots.

>>14687328

You got it wrong, BusterBeam. He's saying that manga is ripping-off Ishimori and not Tezuka. Well, it's not really a rip-off, it's literally a parody of Shotaro no Fantasy World Jun. The manga is called Go-chan no Fantasy World Ban.

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>>14687362
I'll admit I know nothing about it but are you sure it was meant as a parody and not just titled like that as a tribute or something (kind of like "Top wo Nerae" for example?) Because nothing about the style or paneling or anything in that page strikes me as trying to parody Jun. The art doesn't look like to me he's trying to imitate Ishinomori or comically exaggerate the aesthetics of Jun, same goes for the overall execution in terms of paneling and whatnot.

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>>14687392
But if that page is particularly normal and the rest are full of comedic imitation of Jun's serious artsy execution, disregard this.

>>14687392
>I'll admit I know nothing about it
That's all you had to say.

/thread

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>>14687392
>>14687395

Learn to do some research before spawning shit, BusterBeam. If you want people to take you seriously, you need to make sure you actually know what you're talking about. Don't rely on the ANN method.

>>14687487
>But if that page is particularly normal and the rest are full of comedic imitation of Jun's serious artsy execution, disregard this.

I wasn't saying "this is how things are", I was saying "that doesn't actually look like it's trying to imitate Jun, but maybe there are pages that are more similar". But you're so obsessed with going "GOTCHA" at everything I post you've stooped to selective reading.

My entire point was that the character drawings don't resemble Ishinomori's too much and even in that page they still don't. The composition is taken directly from him, but the actual designs honestly just look like Nagai art.

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>>14687404
Once again my main point was that the character art in that page doesn't look like it's imitating Jun. What started this was someone saying "he's copying Tezuka" then another guy basically saying "no he's copying Ishinomori".

Look at the page >>14687487 is referencing, if he was trying to copy Ishinomori's style of drawing characters he fucked up pretty bad.

>>14687521
Not even that guy but
>are you sure it was meant as a parody and not just titled like that as a tribute
>Because nothing about the style or paneling or anything strikes me as trying to parody Jun
>doesn't look like to me he's trying to imitate Ishinomori or comically exaggerate the aesthetics of Jun, same goes for the overall execution in terms of paneling and whatnot.
You have literally just been proven, without a shadow of a doubt, to have no clue about what you're trying to discuss. Stop posting, you absolute shitstain of a failure.

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>>14687539

I don't think it's even up to discussion who's being referenced there.

>>14687544
>"Because nothing about the style or paneling or anything strikes me as trying to parody Jun"
Actually it's
>nothing about the style or paneling or anything in that page
>IN THAT PAGE
then immediately followed by
>But if that page is particularly normal and the rest are full of comedic imitation of Jun's serious artsy execution, disregard this.

You are once again willfully misreading everything I said, also read >>14687539

>Stop posting, you absolute shitstain of a failure.

You sound like you either have severe anger management issues or you're mad that I said a show you like is shit in another thread.

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>>14687554
I never said the manga wasn't referencing Ishinomori. I was saying that the character drawings in >>14687487 and >>14684762 are not a copy of Ishinomori's art and are in fact pretty easily identifiable as Nagai.

There's a difference between saying that Pluto is about an Osamu Tezuka work (it is) and saying that it uses Osamu Tezuka's drawing style (it doesn't).

The actual cameos of Sabu & Ichi in >>14687554 are very stylistically different from the characters in >>14687487 and >>14684762. Those actually do look like Nagai trying to imitate Ishinomori's way of drawing humans.

>"he's just ripping off tezuka"
>Actually it's a parody of Ishinomori, busterbeam
>"well it doesn't look like ishinomori"
>Here's a page directly parodying Ishinomori.
>"it's just typical nagai art!!1"
>But you said it looked like Tezuka's art previously.
Busterbeam strikes again.

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>>14684762
>>14687554

He somewhat resembles Ishinomori's Terebi Kozou.

>>14687575
>"he's just ripping off tezuka"
>Actually it's a parody of Ishinomori, busterbeam
Neither of those posts were mine, and you're paraphrasing it wrong. The actual exchange was

>"Everyone was ripping off Tezuka back then.
>"Doesn't look like Tezuka to me"
>"Ishimori"

"Ishimori" is a really fucking vague response and, in that context, reads like "no, he was trying to draw like Ishinomori instead".

Why the fuck would I say >>14684762 is "ripping off Tezuka"?

Then you or some other guy came in and said "no, it's a parody of Fantasy World Jun".

I asked if it's really a parody and if the other pages are more similar or reference the artsy paneling in Jun, because that particular page looks nothing like Fantasy World Jun (which once again the discussion was about).

Turns out my suspicion was right and other pages do in fact reference the artsy paneling.

But you're so fucking dead set on epically owning me that you're imagining your own reality headcanon.

>>14687582
The tooth and nose make it look like a direct reference to that character, but the actual style is Nagai as hell.

I never said he wasn't referencing Jun or any Ishinomori work, why the fuck would he even name it that if he wasn't? Just that the actual style of that one page doesn't look like it's trying to copy Ishinomori whether for 'ripoff' or 'parody' purposes.

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>>14687612
Compare the little girl from the Jun page vs. the Nagai page parodying it. Nagai directly referenced the style of paneling and the composition in the individual panels, but didn't try very hard to imitate Ishinomori's actual style of drawing characters. He did later when Sabu and Ichi popped up.

>>14687558
>>14687594

BusterBeam, I know you're a little slow to catch on things, so let me explain a little bit how 4chan works. This name "Anonymous" is not a boogeyman constantly trying to discredit and disagree on everything you say. It can actually be anyone coming from any part of the world. When "Anonymous" reply to one of your posts, he sometimes might not be the same one you remember discussing with before.

Wonderful, isn't it? I know it's confusing the first time, but you're a smart boy and I know you will be able to tell the difference in no time. Never give up on hope!

>>14687638

It's because the left is Ishinomori, not Nagai.

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>>14687641
I meant to post this.

>>14687634
I'd like to believe there's just one guy ITT using selective reading to justify having a chimp-out over a statement I made that amounted to "I don't see how that page in particular is parodying Jun in either paneling or character art, but maybe the other pages are more similar".

The very reason I followed that post up with this one >>14687395 was to hammer home the point that I wasn't saying "THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A PARODY AND YOU ARE DUMB FOR SAYING IT IS" as much as "I'd like to see a better comparison if there is one". You provided it. The only reason you felt like starting an argument and accuse me of being ANN or whatever by misrepresenting what I said is probably because you're in a fighting mood every time you see one of my posts (the fact that you named me makes it pretty obvious)

ITT busterbeam chases a boogeyman

Everyone hates you, get used it to.

I was the guy who posted Nagai's Fantasy ban art, and I was the one who replied "Ishimori", because I was told that it wasn't like Tezuka.

I don't know what the fuck you guys are on though. I only wanted to show how Nagai's art was like in the 60s since most people are familiar with his 70s art.

>>14687660
>(the fact that you named me makes it pretty obvious)

Everyone knows you, BusterBeam. If not by your current name, by diebuster. It's not like you ever made a conscious effort to hide yourself. Except maybe in those reverse-troll/bait threads. And even there it's pretty obvious it's you.

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>>14687679
>everyone is a brokebrained petty fucker who tries to make every thread about gay internet drama if a particular person posts in it by failing at basic reading 101
You're delusional and beyond help, I give up

I've already elaborated on my point about that artwork in a way that anyone who doesn't have a stick up their ass should understand so I'll just post a bit of the Cyborg 009 manga instead.

>>14687689

Thanks for the scans. Those are pretty neat. Where did you find them?

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>>14687689
Don't get me wrong, it did look different; I just think it's still recognizable as his art by the inking, body proportions and facial construction.

>>14687698
https://www.nyaa.se/?page=view&tid=770425

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>>14687700
And generally my point was that it doesn't look hugely Tezuka-esque. It feels more Tezuka influenced than his later art but I wouldn't say he was "copying Tezuka".

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>>14687706

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>>14687710

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>>14687711

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>>14687716

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>>14687718
This page is great.

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>>14687722

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>>14687725

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>>14687729

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>>14687731

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>>14687736
Maybe action pages are better for getting people interested though.

>>14687694
>You're delusional and beyond help, I give up

And there he goes again. BusterBeam is like that spoiled kid who throws the entire board on the ground if he's losing the game. And then proceeds to go play by himself in some isolated place.

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>>14687740
I just wanted to reach 001's origin because it's wonderfully deranged.

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>>14687746

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>>14687749
pre-Alien face huggers

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>>14687754

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>>14687759

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>>14687763

I've got the Go Nagai fantaji chapter. It's literally 1 chapter long. Now if you would stop posting, and let me post it please.

>>14687780
I already did actually, go ahead.

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Okay.

To clarify things.

Go-chan no Fantaji Waraudo Ban is the 2nd chapter in the 2nd volume of Go Nagai's Anthology compilation series, which consists of 14 volumes.

Each volume has many individual Go Nagai stories.

The 2nd volume name of the Anthology series also share the name with the 2nd chapter, and it has 13 chapters / stories. All the stories in this 2nd volume seem to have all been done in 1968.

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Here's a list of stories in this volume. Like I said, go-chan no fantaji is the second chapter.

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Fuck me I'm retarded.

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I had to convert the pages from bmp to jpg to post it here. So I used paint, and I forgot to convert one of the pages.

And that's literally it.

>>14687898

From where is the Sabu and Ichi cameos then?

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>>14687882

That's Ishinomori's self-portrait. Similar to the Go-chan's smiley face.

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>>14687917
Jigoku no Kenman. This story is in the first Go Nagai Anthology volume. (Along with Go Nagai's debut story, Meakishi Polikichi). Also released in 1968.

I want to post them, but they're all in .bmp format. Do you know any good batch converter for Windows 10 out there?

>>14687925
neat

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>>14687938

Oh, I see. I guess I will need to download all the anthologies. I saw someone post a ninja manga by Nagai that was clearly mimicking Ishinomori's style before. It was like 009 60s style with the ninja guy running like 009 in his acceleration mode. I have no idea where to find it anymore, but might be in one of these anthologies. Do you remember seeing anything like this?

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>>14687970

The ninja guy looked kinda like this.

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>>14687970
>ishinomori invented speed visualizations in comics

>>14687970
>>14688001
Let's just get it out of the way. Is it Black Lion?

Satsujinsha?

>>14688013

No, but it's definitely from the 60s. It looks exactly like those pages. Except you can see it's Go Nagai's art. It's like those Sabu and Ichi cameos where the similarities seems to be intentional.

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>>14688029
Did it look like pic related?

>>14688041

No, he had this same hairstyle: >>14688001

Like 009 with black hair.

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>>14688054
?

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>>14687970
>>14688001
>>14688013
>>14688029
>>14688041
>>14688054

Ok, I found it. It was not a ninja, looks more like Getter Robo-like uniform. I remembered it wrong. Still, have you seen it anywhere before?

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>>14688070

Not what I was looking for, but still interesting. That's Go Nagai's Sanpei Shirato parody.

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Left: Ishinomori
Right: Nagai

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>>14688079
Tell me where you got this image.

Also while going through the Anthology, random Golgo 13 cameo.

>>14688079
That’s アシスタント時代の習作原稿。
It was a practice draft.

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>>14688155

Found it on twitter. Back when 009 vs Devilman was first announced, some japanese fan was posting these Nagai's essays talking about how it was to be mentored by Ishinomori. They don't say the title of the manga, they only mention the influence of being Ishinomori's assistant in Nagai's work.

>>14688191

So it was never reprinted anywhere, I guess. It's a shame it seems he made a few pages more for this.

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>>14687544
This buster guy is pretty good at make the spic mad.

>>14688224

He might be busterbeam as well. It wouldn't be the first time he pretended to be someone else.

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>>14688150

Left: Ishinomori
Right: Nagai

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>>14688150
>>14688265

Not implying anything here. Just thought this is kinda of interesting. It's Ishinomori's Mutant Sabu, same manga as above. Nagai worked as an assistant on it.

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>>14688356

Some background characters drawn by Nagai in another Mutant Sabu chapter.

>>14688356
You can imply it all you want. I've already seen this discussion go down on /m/.

Go Nagai didn't invent much, but he renewed and popularised concepts from the past for his generation.

Mazinger Z isn't the first manga to feature piloted robots, the same way Cyborg 009 isn't the first superhero manga, but they popularised them.

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>>14688367

From Susanoo. Again, this is not proof of anything. But still shows Nagai's awareness of Mutant Sabu even years later.

>>14688377

Yeah, that's true. But Nagai claims to have come up with the concept after being stuck on traffic. That's what I'm questioning here. No doubt about Mazinger Z impact and influence. Things would not have been the same without it, that's for sure.

>>14688377
>isn't the first superhero manga

It was never supposed to be.

>>14688377
>>14688387
Stop this. Nagai did not invent robots and he didn't invent pilots. Everyone knows that. What Nagai did was invent the concept of the mecha series where the protagonist pilots a robot as a sort of super power. He also pioneered various techniques to make the robot have human-like interaction within the story such as the pilots feeling pain when the robot was hit or the robot's oil spilling like blood. Nagai, without a doubt, created the mecha genre as we know it. Ishinomori never, ever did those things.

>>14688387
>But Nagai claims to have come up with the concept after being stuck on traffic.
>on traffic
spiccers
Anyway, yes Nagai said that. That is literally what inspired him to make Mazinger Z. You also have to realize that the original Energer was piloted by a motorcycle on top of its head and that Mazinger Z itself was piloted like a motorcycle. Knowing of Mutant Sabu doesn't change his source of inspiration.

>>14688387
>>14688418
>But Nagai claims to have come up with the concept after being stuck on traffic
Nagai debunked that claim himself.

He wasn't driving. He was on the pavement.

>>14688379
Why would he not be aware of what manga he worked on?

Village of the Damned is one of his top 5 movies too. I think some stuff in it inspired Devilman.

>>14688387
>That's what I'm questioning here.
Why? He claimed to come up with that concept for Mazinger. Mecha at his time was fucking dead. People were tired of Tetsujin. He begged big publishing houses to give him a chance. Many even recommended that he doesn't do giant robots.

He most likely remembers Mutant Sabu, but what pushed him to do Mazinger the way he did it, is his concept of a giant robot walking over traffic.

You can have multiple inspirations, but one will be stronger than the rest. If he didn't think of giant robots crossing traffic, then he just wouldn't have done Mazinger.

>>14688412
>>14688418
>>14688423
>>14688428
>>14688451

Other than the concept, I just pointed some visual similarities between that particular story and the beginning of Mazinger Z. Right after posting other examples of Nagai being inspired by Ishinomori's panels. I just implied it might have been an source of inspiration or that he remembered that particular story while working on Mazinger Z. You guys came up with the "Ishinomori created mecha genre" claims by yourselves.

>>14687362
Would it really count as a rip-off when mangaka sort of imitate their teachers? Go was a protege to Ishinomori, and Ishinomori was a protege to Tezuka.

>>14688498
You're that Ishimorifag who didn't stop ruining Nagai threads, are you not?

If not, okay, but if you are, then you should know we've been over this. You used the same exact panel with Mutant Sabu and Susano Oh.

>>14688526
>Ishinomori was a protege to Tezuka.
They were rivals.

Go Nagai was supposed to be Tezuka's assistant anyway. Tezuka was on a business trip, and Nagai couldn't reach him.

>>14687722
Skull's helmet is so fucking great because it makes him look as smug as he sounds.

>>14688526

Nagai worked under Ishinomori for years. Ishinomori worked as an assistant to Tezuka for one single Astro Boy story. Calling him Tezuka's "protege" is a bit of a stretch. Their relationship was more like a friendly rivalry than master and student. Ishinomori was mostly self-taught, even if he was inspired by Tezuka to become a manga artist himself.

>>14688539
>They were rivals.
I thought Ishinomori was his student who he called potatohead?

>>14688549
Ah, alright then. I'm not super researched on it, I'm admittedly an extremely casual fan of all three. Thank you for clearing that up!

>>14688549
>Nagai worked under Ishinomori for years
Source.

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>>14688575
I remember making a thread on Yokoyama's birthday and I don't think I managed to get a single reply.

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>>14688579

>>14688565

Literally everywhere. Almost every fucking interview you can find out there. Any of Nagai's biographical works. Go look yourself, really. Stop being lazy. If you find anything saying otherwise, then I will shut up, ok? This is not even supposed to be hard to find an reliable source.

>>14688609
You realize you can pretty much look anything up, right? Maybe you're too autistic to realize the person is trying to have a conversation with (You)

>>14688609
>If you find anything saying otherwise, then I will shut up, ok?
Nice logical fallacy.

>>14688615

Maybe, yeah. But I don't need to do basic research for anyone. If he wants to know, he can do it himself. That's probably bait anyway. Just like he's doing right here: >>14688621

>>14688609
>for years
>YEARS
1965-1967

>>14688643
Not him, but that technically is years.

>>14688634
>make claim
>get mad when asked to provide source for it
Is this your first day on the internet

>>14688646
when people say for years, they usually mean more than 2.

>>14688647

I would have done the damn research and provided several sources if it was. Like I did several times before.

>>14688652
Oh I know, I'm just being a semantic faggot

>>14688079
Pretty sure that's 殺刃者.

>>14688652

Ishinomori worked for Tezuka for one single night. 2 years is a lot of time for an manga artist assistant. It means 2 years of non-stop work before he made his solo debut.

>>14688663
Satsujinsha was actually published much later in 2007.

>>14688669
>2 years is a lot of time for an manga artist assistant.
Irrelevant.

You don't say "for years" for 2 years.

>>14688669
>2 years is a lot of time for an manga artist assistant
Actually, that's extremely short.

>>14688673
So? It was made in the 60s.

>>14688643
>>14688652
>>14688681

Get a life, you pedantic fucks. It's embarrassing to see you guys shit yourselves over this.

>>14688725

http://forestofstone.tumblr.com/post/130733145334/go-nagai-interview-009-vs-devilman
http://www.zakzak.co.jp/entertainment/ent-news/news/20151006/enn1510061531014-n1.htm
http://www.zakzak.co.jp/entertainment/ent-news/news/20151008/enn1510081200014-n1.htm

Ishinomori was an extremely prolific manga artist and writer, even compared to his peers at the time. He was making as many as 200 pages a month during Nagai's time as an assistant for him, which seemed to be too much for Nagai to handle. So even though he spent only a few years under Ishinomori's wing, it was certainly enough to leave an impact on Nagai's works during his solo career.

>>14688850
>Ishinomori was an extremelblah blah blah blah
What the fuck? This autistic rambling has no relevance to my post whatsoever. Stop this shit, bustercream.

>>14688850

http://www.nikkansports.com/special/nagai/2007/top-nagai.html

Also, this says that Nagai's first work, Satsujinsha, made even before becoming an assistant, was only 88 pages that took him a whole year to complete. So that's quite a change of pace he had to make just being hired as an assistant to work on even a fraction of those pages.

>>14688876

Not only do you have the wrong guy, but you've completely missed my point by a longshot, moron

>>14688902
There was no point. Your post had no relevance.

>
Also, this says that Nagai's first work, Satsujinsha, made even before becoming an assistant, was only 88 pages that took him a whole year to complete. So that's quite a change of pace he had to make just being hired as an assistant to work on even a fraction of those pages.
That was just something he did in his spare time.

>>14688908
There was a point. Nagai was working with Ishinomori, one of the busiest manga artists not just of the era, but of all time. This required adapting into a schedule that needed his full-time devotion to work on his mentor's pages, whereas he was just a beginning manga artist/hobbyist before being hired. It's highly probable that Nagai helped work on more pages in a single month than what others would do in half a year or even a whole year, and he did that for at least 24 months in a row, give or take. And obviously during those two years, he obviously picked up certain parts of Ishinomori's style and composition even after going solo.

>>14688982
Once again, it has nothing to do with my post that you replied. You are just rambling. Not even getting into the fact that your rambling is just one assumption after another concluded into a dubious "facts" deemed valid by you and only you.

>>14689001
>"two years is short for a manga artist assistant!"
>provides valid source Nagai said that even for two years he was working his ass off and struggling to meet the demand for Ishinomori's pages, even compared to other artists at the time
>"you've got no point!"
>breaks down the point again so someone as slow as yourself could understand
>"still no point"
>now making "assumptions and autistic rambling", apparently

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. By they way, since you're obviously the expert here, how long is an "enough" amount of time for a manga artist assistant from the '60s to work? Go on, I'll wait.

>>14688565
I remember Kazuhiko Shimamoto's manga references it.

Apparently, when Nagai was first interviewed for the role of being Ishinomori's assistant, he brought a ton of short stories he had drawn up to to prove that he can handle all aspects of manga creation.

>>14689057
Are you fucking retarded? That's rhetorical, by the way.

>provides valid source Nagai said that even for two years he was working his ass off and struggling to meet the demand for Ishinomori's pages, even compared to other artists at the time
This literally has nothing to do with my statement of two years not being a long time before making a manga debut. Congratulations, you are below the reading level of a fourth grader.

>>14688579
You probably posted it on /mu/

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>>14689208

The point is Ishinomori debuted right away after one single assistant work for Tezuka. Nagai studied under him for 2 years before doing his debut. He had more time to learn a few tricks under his tutelage while his work for Tezuka was more like a job, he didn't spent time enough there or even lived in Tezuka's studio. He did the job at home and then moved to work by his own. While Nagai was his protege for 2 years.

>>14689075

There was also a little about it in the few translated chapters of Gekiman, but I can't find them on any online reader for some reason.

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>>14689457
Oh hey, that's the guy who did the Blue Submarine No. 6 manga.

Man, I love Tezuka's stuff but he really did behave horribly to other artists. I wonder if he ever apologized to this dude like he did to Ishinomori or if he died with his official opinion on the guy (who really doesn't seem that bad) being "the worst".
>>14688240
I generally only adopt another persona if I want to make an incendiary statement and spark discussion about something that would get no replies with a more straightforward thread.

>>14689554
>Blue Submarine No. 6
You can read of sample of it here:
http://www.mangashop.jp/en/prod/samples/9784775914298.pdf

Some fantastic paneling here:
http://www.mangashop.jp/en/prod/samples/9784775914595.pdf

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>>14689719
You're right; this is fantastic stuff.

The way he draws humans can be a bit wonky but overall this is great and I'd definitely read a translated work by him.

What's the second manga called? I can't read moon but I'm pretty sure that title doesn't say Blue Sub No. 6.

>>14688850
You spread misinformation you retard. You don't get to call other people pedantic for pointing that out.

>>14689554
>Man, I love Tezuka's stuff but he really did behave horribly to other artists.
At the point he was working in, I don't blame him.

He was considered to be the top of Japanese character and concept creators. He needed to break as many people as he could with his place at the top to make sure he wouldn't be the only one.

He wanted challengers who could help propel manga and Japanese stories forward.

Looking back, I think his horrible behavior honestly helped. A spartan method of culling the crowd.

>>14690327
Some of Tezuka's criticism was absolutely spot on, but the way he acted to Ishinomori over Fantasy World Jun screamed jealousy. So I dunno, the guy wasn't flawless. Sometimes he was mean but right, but not always.

To be fair, I'd like to know what Ozawa's art looked like when Tezuka said that, and what Tezuka's criticism was. That quote's pretty out-of-context; for all I know, maybe the guy really DID suck complete shit and the only reason he could draw stuff like >>14689775 later in his career was being called out.

>>14690509

Tezuka said the same about Shigeru Mizuki's art when Mizuki was at the peak of his career. And also that he could do much better horror stories. Dororo was kinda like a response to the Yokai Boom Mizuki started.

As for Satoru Ozawa, I know he used to be Mitsuteru Yokoyama's assistant and could reproduce his style really well. Some parts of Giant Robo are completely drawn by Ozawa. Tezuka praised Yokoyama's drawings when they first met, but that was really early on his career. So I don't know what the deal was. I know Tezuka also hated Otomo and said he could draw just as well if he wanted to. He never showed any proof of that, though. And Tezuka's attempts at realistic drawing are not that good.

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Did they ever translate more of Gilgamesh?

I'd like to know where Ishinomori was going with it.

>>14690799
There's an anime.

>>14690975
From what I know the anime changes a lot of elements from the manga.

>>14690509
What did he say about Jun?

>>14690782
Otomo?

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So I just read Ken Ishikawa's Amon Saga.

It seems as though I'm missing some serious background here. Is the Amon Saga OVA even related? Doesn't seem like it.

Seriously, what the fuck is Amon Saga? Is it originally a novel? In that case, I can't find fuckall information about it. Or is it just one of Ishikawa's original story?

>>14691376
Nevermind, I just found out that Baku Yumemakura is the creator of the Amon Saga OVA with Yoshitaka Amano, and yes the manga is related, but with that said, the stories aren't the same at all.

>>14691369
>What did he say about Jun?

http://forestofstone.tumblr.com/post/125974267909/shotaro-ishinomori-the-king-of-manga

Read the last part "Shotaro Ishinomori X Osamu Tezuka".

>Otomo?

Katsuhiro Otomo. The guy who made Akira.

>>14690984

I fail to see any connection at all other than the names of the main characters. But the DVD Box released in America had an special feature on Shotaro Ishinomori and the significance of the number 9 in his work or something.

Sell me on Devilman. How /m/ is it? Does he have named attacks and special weapons? Is the action good?

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>>14691620
>Does he have named attacks
In the TV version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTVj-4uiOt4

>How /m/ is it?
Crossovers mainly.

>>14691620
>How /m/ is it?
Well, Devilman Saga apparently has some sort of cyber devil armors, but other than that not much.

>Does he have named attacks and special weapons?
Not really named, but he has some neat super powers.

>Is the action good?
I love it. Devilman (and lady) fights with a brutal fighting style where he just rips off limbs, strangles the opponent and just fights dirty in general.

>>14691655
Lady had power armour.

>Not really named
Devil wing!
Devil beam!
Devil cutter!

Just to name a few.

>>14691669
>Lady had power armour.
Forgot about that. I watched the OVAs recently and somehow I've been forgetting details from the manga, time for a reread.

>>14691620
It's mostly /m/ in that by volume 5 it's one of Nagai's best manga

>>14691655
Lady actually had a chapter with these mecha things being produced in America but then the manga started rushing to the end and they never showed up.

>>14691669
>>14691677
And I guess the demon hunter secret police in Devilman was pretty technological but that's a huge stretch

>>14691693
I'd like to think that those mechas are somehow related to Saga, since the war they describe there has them (like, Go Nagai wanted to write about that stuff but had to end Lady, so now with Saga he can actually do it properly), but there is only 1 volume translated so who knows?

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>>14692627

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>>14692631

>>14691620
> How /m/ is it? Does he have named attacks and special weapons? Is the action good?
This kinda sounds like you're expecting the wrong thing from it. As >>14691655 said the action is not traditional anime action and is very quick and brutal and gory. It's still mostly drawn in a way that makes it obvious Nagai was enjoying himself but they're not "anime fights" in the way that they are in, well, the TV anime.

Devilman is worth reading if you want something surreal, violent and insane yet at the same time completely honest that aims to make a point about humanity.

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What's your favorite Yokoyama manga?

Picture taken from one of the many online manga reader sites just for the sake of having a picture to o with the post.

>>14693554
three kingdoms it's the only one i read

>>14693554
Only 8 results on Madokami some of them not even being his actual manga. I don't care to read his historical stuff for reasons I've stated throughout this thread but I really want to read Tetsujin 28 as it seems like the kind of iconic influential thing that makes you go "oh, so THAT'S where that came from!" constantly.

https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=31541 Seriously why the fuck is no one scanlating something so huge and influential?

>>14693934
I personally blame Otomo (Akira) for outshadowing that franchise

>>14693934
>historical stuff
It's really good, though.

I like Masamune Date the most.

>>14693554

Babel II.

Sono Na Wa 101 is pretty good as well.

>>14694129

What!?

>>14694474
I just find the way he drew humans in them soul-sucking. His robots look great so I'd like to see more of his mecha stuff translated.

>>14694479
Did they translate 101 or did you read it in the original language?

I'm very interested by the concept of 101, or at least what little I know of it.

>>14678228
What's wrong with him? Not trying to stir shit up or anything like that, but as far as I can tell he doesn't seem like the worst person around.

>>14678699
Black Jack and Alabaster are my favorites.
I wish people didn't shit on Alabaster pretending it's supposed to be muh mature gekiga and then complaining when it isn't.

>>14694516
Rock is a great 'pure cartoonish evil' character in it.
>>14694508
Can you please not encourage that guy to make the thread about me

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>>14694505

They released it in my country years ago. Scanlations are taking forever. But if you have basic japanese skills, Yokoyama is actually not that hard to read. He uses almost no colloquialism, his dialogues are the most down to earth as possible.

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>>14694530

Oh, about 101. I got it from Ebookjapan. It's not as good as Babel II, but I enjoyed it regardless. It's a lot more gritty and actually give more development for Koichi (even a surname "Yamano", something he never had in the original). GinRei from Giant Robo is in it as well as his love interest for one chapter. The three servants have only small cameos in the series as they're now secluded in a government building. The overall style is very hard boiled, reminds me a lot of those action thriller movies from the 70s like The French Connection or old James Bond movies, only involving espers.

I think the main difference is that there's a new enemy for every chapter. Babell II is only about Yomi. So this time you actually feel like you got to know Koichi a lot better. Yomi is in the final chapter and it's a very gruesome way to end the series. Seriously, it's even more bleak than Mars, but not as over the top.

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You know /m/ is retarded when they think Jeeg is actually by Go Nagai, even though it's just TV Magazine shit by Yasuda.

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There even was a TV Magazine manga of Devilman.

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And of course, TV Magazine Mazinger, which is strangely lumped into the Shounen Jump edition. (Even though it's kinda shit)

Somehow, every TV Magazine manga is bad and its audience is made up of toddlers.

>>14694626

There was tons of manga made by assistants for every series created by media mix. It was a tradition. I doubt this is the only Devilman manga made back then. But the only to count at end were the ones published in proper manga magazines like Shonen Sunday or Shonen Magazine.

>>14693554
I've only read Sangokushi and Mars of his and I find Three Kingdoms a lot better between the two.

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>>14694651
That one was done by Mitsuru Hiruta.

There's also Yuu Okazaki's Cutie Honey, but not in TV Magazine.

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>>14694620
>>14694626
>>14694635
We actually had a few of those released in Arabic way back when.

Majed Magazine (pic) is one of the few that had original stories, but the rest of the publishers would purchase the rights to TV tie ins for stuff like Grendizer and re-print them in Arabic.

Apparently, those were never translated properly. They'd get anyone to just come up with text that fit the panels and made it consistent with the event of the show.

I seem to recall they even had the thing American comics did a lot of, where they'd reference an event and have a * at the bottom saying something like

>*SEE EPISODE 13 OF THE TV SERIES.

There were also a few cases where they'd hire artists and get them to draw an original comic based on the show. Never sequels or anything like that, just a small event that could fit in the middle of the show or merely a comic adaptation of an episode.

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>>14693554
New chapter never

>>14694481
Despite influencing Tetsujin 28, he nearly "ruined" it by getting the Tetsujin 28's protagonist's name into his works's protagonist'

>>14694526
Rock's always great.

>>14696052
Rock is mustache-twirling villain-tier except super edgy for unknown reasons. Fuck, I don't understand how Vampires got a TV show.

>>14696062
Rock used to be Tezuka's slightly less clean cut protagonist apart from Kenichi. Then in Nextworld he becomes the villain and he's always the edgy anti-hero or full edgelord if he's wearing the sunglasses from then on. He has this hard edge to him, he was kind of like Tezuka's Lee Marvin.

>>14693934
Because it's kind of long at 20 volumes, besides it being an antiquated series to scanlate.

>>14694620
Didn't Gosaku Ota do his own version of Jeeg?

>>14693934
>>14696234
>20 volumes
>not scanned
>extremely niche
also
>Seriously why the fuck is no one scanlating something so huge and influential?
dat entitlement

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>>14696333

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>>14696338

>>14695965

And how exactly that ruined Tetsujin? He also got Ishinomori's Sarutobi Ecchan name for Domu and I don't see how this ruined Ecchan.

>>14696234
>>14696247
it's not more niche or "antiquated" than the Astro Boy manga which is very easy to enjoy today.

>>14697311
Regardless, no one has gotten around to take on it yet. Still, I think that HappyScans will pick it up eventually, at the very least, if no one else does.

Talk about Tezuka always gets me to read some of his lesser known works.

I read Yakeppachi no Maria for the first time today.

I had no idea he did a story about a boy giving birth to a ghost that lives in a sex doll his father made for a client.

What a bizarre story.

Either you all start talking old comics or I start violently assaulting everyone.

>>14701411
That's what you do all the time anyway.

>>14701411
Who the fuck wants to talk about anything when you're got diebuster sperging ITT

>>14701419

This. And then there's people defending his shit in this board. That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

>>14701411

Talk about your experience meeting Ishimori, VF-kun.

>>14701419
>>14701423
You're both really dumb and I want you to know that I genuinely believe that you're dumb.

>>14701426
I made it all up, Anonymous.

>>14701428
>I made it all up, Anonymous.

I knew it!

>>14701428
Seriously though, it's a rare day that you aren't making an unfunny shitpost you dirty arab. You're not much better than diebuster. I mean you're literally begging people to discuss things and no one wants to because this thread is beyond cancer. Besides, this board is for mecha, not old comics. Stay on topic, you attention whore.

>>14696347
HA! I knew Miura got that from somewhere

>>14701428
>You're both really dumb and I want you to know that I genuinely believe that you're dumb.

Do you want to know who else is dumb? Diebuster. Man, he's dumb.

>>14701434

Only a hack would stl from another hack.

>>14701428
>calls people dumb
>is literally a failure who couldn't complete ONE project and now just haunts the board with a pointless trip
You brought this on yourself.

>>14701432
>>14701437
>>14701439
It's a bit depressing that you're more interested in posting about bargain bin internet celebrities than the seminal works of authors who created a lot of the stories and elements that helped define the genre we discuss on this board.

We are here to discuss /m/ related manga, new and old.

If you are not interested in such topics, then I suggest you leave.

If you're going to get dragged down by buster and his third rate opinions on manga (he hasn't read) then I suggest you leave.

>>14701459
>le reverse psychology
No one wants to post in a shit thread. Simple as that. They're not the dumb ones, you are.
>Vagina "everyone is dumb but me look at my oh so funny name hee hee women body parts" Fluids

>>14701470
Fuck off already with your buster obsession. If you dislike his posts so much just ignore them, is it really that hard?

>>14694626
The proportions on Akira/Amon in panel 3 are bizarre as hell. Does he look like that consistently or did the artist screw up?
>>14694516
I think they mainly shit on it because Tezuka did, and I could easily see people hating it if they were expecting a "Tezuka experience". That and I guess people could hate it the same way they say hate End of Evangelion since it's more emotion-driven than plot-driven.

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>>14701567
For the record though I really liked it.

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>>14701567
Other than it being emotionally driven and having corruption elements (muh fetish) I thought it had a lot of scenes that looked really cool and memorable.
Like the one you posted here >>14701572 or pic related, the prison escape, etc etc.
Granted I haven't read everything Tezuka so I might be missing some other title that could be even more enjoyable but so far Alabaster is the one with the biggest concentration of neat moments, for me at least.

>>14701605
Astroboy and Hi no Tori have some of Tezuka's top moments, but Alabaster is honestly one of my favorites of his work.

I forget if Alabaster was Rock Holmes' debut, but he's probably one of Tezuka's best characters. He's so easy to hate.

>BTW IM GREEK

>>14701617

Evil Rock is from Vampires.

>>14701605
I thought the ending was rather weak and silly.

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Is anyone else looking forward to Happy Scans doing Queen Millennia?

>>14702950

No.

>>14703256
We already know you aren't, autist.

>>14703264

And you're the only one to care.

>>14702932
How so? Alabaster's death made sense from a "Chekhov's gun" perspective and the girl's suicide was thematically and logically fitting. She did some fucked up shit.
>>14701605
I binged a bunch of his work some months ago and Alabaster is a pretty good concentration of neat shit.

His more approved works like Atom and Black Jack have some amazing moments but also some forgettable ones. They're huge journeys with ups and downs.

If you like Alabaster despite Tezuka disliking it, check out Swallowing the Earth. Another Tezuka-disliked work that I thought was very good, I suspect he was a bit influenced by Monkey Punch for that one (but also Milt Gross who he namedrops if you pay attention to the background) in that it's some of his loosest wackiest art ever.
>>14702950
I'm happy about any Leiji manga being done.

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>>14704938
>Swallowing the Earth

>>14704938
>Swallowing the Earth.
Thought this overstayed its welcome and didn't end when it should have. Also had problems with Ayako's ending feeling forced and easily preventable.

Is there any worthwhile manga literature at all?
The only book I don't see people complaining about all the time is "Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art" by Scott McCloud, but surely other good titles exist and that isn't the only one, right?

>>14708209
>Reading a book about manga when you could be reading manga

Sorta missing the point, aren't you

>>14708241
>if you want to understand more a medium you enjoy you're missing the point of the whole thing
Are you mentally challenged by any chance?

>>14708247
If we're just talking about comics, then sure, you'd have a point. Understanding Comics is a good example, since it has a lot of research put into it.

The majority of books about manga are sorta poorly compiled and put together. Way too much personal opinion and very little factual research and data gathering.

You won't hear about how the medium got its format, or how the magazines that publish them evolved into the creatures that they are today. Instead, you'll read summaries of lesser known works that state their opinions regarding the subject as if they were fact.

>Work X is about Y and Z. It is really good, because the author, B, was going through a massive depression at the time.

That's really what you'll be jumping into if you want to read books about manga. Opinions presented as fact coupled with rudimentary information that could be gleamed from reading official releases of manga that happen to feature interviews with or essays by the author.

>>14708264
That's why I was asking if there are any good titles out there, because I could only find what you described. I mean, the best thing I've ever read about manga are still "Even a Monkey can Draw Manga" and "A Drifting Life".
Also there's a point to be made about how comics literature is helpful for manga as well, since it helps you understand paneling, shadowing etc etc.

>>14708288
>A Drifting Life
That's a really good one, but I find it difficutl to dislike Tatsumi.

Like I said, you're better off reading manga than reading books about manga.

Stuff like Moeru Pen/Aoi Honoo and Gekiman offer more insight into the creation and world of manga than any of the books that I've seen on the subject.

>>14708209
There is one by Paul Gravett that he writes about the history of manga, its pretty nice and have lots of pictures.

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>>14708493
Took some pictures

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>>14708497

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>>14708506

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>>14708509

>>14708513
>>14708493
Looks nice, thank you.

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>>14708209
Understanding Comics is only considered the Holy Bible of comics because everyone else has been, as VF-kun said, too busy reading or making comics to make a superior guide. It's competent and offers some nice base knowledge, but it has some really stupid shit in it:
>shitty undetailed stickfiguers is the "most cartoony" type of art
>in a different page, "NEVER cross the tails of speech bubbles NO MATTER WHAT!!!"
>implying crossing them can't be used in a creative way, i.e. two rival characters' speech bubbles clashing complete with a spark effect

Also his cartoon self-insert looks like a Tim Buckley character.

A friend talked to Frank Quitely (extremely high-tier artist) about it at a convention and they both agreed it's not that great.

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>>14708551

>>14708209
Never tried it but I thought Manga! Manga! The World of Japanese Comics was the one good book about chinese comics. You should check that one out.

>>14708620
From what I read of his translations and introductions to Tezuka books Schodt knows very little about comics, lacks basic observational sense, projects personal politics over other people's work and also thinks "General Caster's Last Place" was a real historical event.

>>14708551
McCloud's basically one of those guys who writes an entire paper on how a minor scene in a film is actually part of some entire sociopolitical commentary and then the director comes along and tells him it's just a scene of guy filling up a cup with water. Enthusiastic and well meaning but overthinking things way too much. His own original work feels more like a tvtropes checklist than it does an actual genuine piece of storytelling.

>>14708702

Sounds a lot like you, BusterBean. Never write a book, please.

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I've been reading Kikkaider. I like some of the inking work and page compositions.

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>>14710453
And the explosions are satisfyingly explodey.

>>14710453
Is that the one where the main side cast is replaced halfway in for no real reason?

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>>14710458
I wouldn't say Mitsuko, Masaru, and Hanpei were replaced, it was more that they're sidelined until plot demands that they show up. I don't think the manga is necessarily worse for it because when Mitsuko is in the picture, there tends to be a cycle of: Jiro goes crazy, strangles Mitsuko, and then runs away to angst over it and kill more robots. I haven't watched the anime so I don't know how it compares. On an unrelated note, you could make a lethal drinking game if you took a shot every time someone said "Jiminy Circuit" or "Conscience Circuit."

I just started volume four. Buddhabots are cool.

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>>14709378
Dude, at least learn to drop the space between the >>[number] and the message if you want to pretend that "everyone" hates me enough to make cancerous derailing shitposts about me every single time I post aside from you and probably one other guy who you may or may not be friends with.

Writing a book to change public opinions in this day and age is useless if you want to reach out anime fans. The great majority of weeaboos don't read books for anime knowledge and you can do much better with simply having posts/videos blow up on social media or making accurately-sourced wiki edits.

The only manga/anime book I legit learned some very interesting stuff from was Fred Patten's; I'm sure the guy would defend the other guys I say are not very good since he's friends with them but Watching Anime, Reading Manga had genuine information and felt passionately written. The fact that the guy's an honest to god furry probably helps. The more into autistic nerd bullshit you are, the more likely you are to actually take anime & manga seriously.

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>>14710866
But generally, I've learnt the most by just hanging out on 4chan and following knowledgeable people on social media. My greatest sources of old-school anime/manga information are probably just random shitposters on 4chan. If I were an anime journo or anime encyclopedia writer I would've been defended by my peers for being wrong about Ishinomori being a "Tezuka clone" but since I'm some random fag on 4chan people rightfully called me out on being an uninformed asshole about the guy so now Ishinomori is one of my favorite artists.

Well of course you can also learn Japanese but fuck me I'm too lazy

>>14708903
I'm not saying he's an asshole or that his book is useless, hell I plan to read all of it if I ever want to get seriously into comic-making. It's just that there's a bunch of small things that are questionable there his advice should be thought of as pointers and not core ideas set in stone.

For example my friend who idolizes people like Basil Wolverton and Bob Clampett was gritting his teeth when shown that "less detail, more like a shitty stickfigure = cartoonier" pic at college.

>>14710866
>foreword by Carl Macek
dropped

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>>14710458
And now I see what you mean. After some brief research I'm guessing that since this manga was published while the tv show was serialized, this is where Ishinomori decided to fuse the Kikaider and Kikaider 01 plots. So yeah, the first side cast is replaced for no real reason after getting sidelined for several volumes.

>>14713959
He's friends with a lot of those fuckers so "it can't be helped". He's part of a bad clique but from what I've read of his work I don't think he appeared cynical and lacking in any passion for anime like his peers.

>>14716436

There was no Kikaider 01 series up to that point.

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>>14717075
>Kikaider (TV) 8 July 1972 – 5 May 1973
>Kikaider manga serialized in Weekly Shōnen Sunday alongside the tokusatsu series from August 1972 and ended in June 1973.
>Kikaider 01 was broadcast on NET (now TV Asahi) from May 12, 1973 to March 30, 1974.

You're right in that the 01 show hadn't aired yet. Perhaps it would've been more accurate for me to have said that rather than combining the shows, it's spinning off the plot of Vol.3 onward (Gill Hakaider and the twins) into a separate show. I wonder what the writing process was like and how much Ishinomori did beforehand. Most of it comes off as if he was flying by the seat of his pants. It wasn't as though he had a bunch of ideas he wanted to explore and didn't have time to follow through on them, it's that he had one, but for whatever reason (time/editorial constraints, I assume) couldn't pursue it to any significant depth. That said, I ended up mostly enjoying it despite there being lots of "things happening because we need things to happen."

>Fuck these side characters, we're sending them out of the country.
>Let's replace the child character who didn't do anything with two more children who do even less, otherwise our child quota is not fulfilled.
>Ichiro is solar powered, so he can't fight well in the dark—never mind, that never gets brought up again after the Buddhabot fight.
>Let's put in a jealousy subplot between Ichiro and Jiro—wait, we don't have time for that, scrap it.
>We're going to put in a female android and then we're going to kill her a couple chapters later and then put in a different EVIL female android—never mind, her powers made her fall in love with Jiro and she comes around to the good side almost immediately.
>I built this other android while you guys were gone, his name is Rei and he only does two things of significance in the story.

It's a narrative trainwreck, but it was a cool trainwreck. I'm curious to see how much the anime adaptation tightened up the script.

>>14717209

Kikaider is very fondly remembered but it has actually a very messy publishing story. It was supposed to last for roughly a year but it was extended due to popularity. But that came at a cost. When the series started Ishinomori was not even able to do most of the art himself and the majority of it was carried by a group of five assistants (if you read other Ishinomori's works from around the same time period, you will notice the art and panelling in Kikaider is very inconsistent). Then its slot in Shonen Sunday got shortened to make space for Inazuman, solely made by Ishinomori himself. So Kikaider had half the number of pages for each new chapter (if you read the Fukkan edition, there's actually chapter breaks, which is not really the case for most of the volume compilations). As for Kikaider 01, I believe he was introduced in the manga and then they made a show using the plot-line for the second half of the manga. But Toei went over-budget so most of those ideas were dropped in favor of doing their own thing for the show.