Gundam Seed Destiny proves that the Earth Alliance was completely

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>when people repost images you make

It's a good feeling.

>>14203478

It's true though.

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Maybe you lot should not be so incompetent in the first place so that you got your shit kicked in by ZAFT so many times without MUH NUKES and even then it might not guarantee victory either

>>14203478
There's alot of bullshit in Destiny, the fact the Freedom walks away from the final battle without a single scratch is possibly the worst.

>>14203542
I did not know the US constitution used the terms Guaiz or Zuoot.

>>14203558

It's because cursive doesn't exist in the future, so they were trying to read it as it was. They were going for other words entirely but cursive made the letters appear different.

>>14203563

I'm assuming it is talking about Freedom and Justice

>>14203574
Freedom is the most stereotypically American Gundam I've ever seen.
>Painted in the colors of the American flag; not even Graham "muh flag" Aker did that.
>Special move is just firing a fuckload of guns all over the place.
>Its called FREEDOM, FFS.
>Its partner is called JUSTICE.
>It can dock into a weapons platform, for the sole purpose of firing even more fucking guns all over the fucking place.
It's an AC/DC song short of being Japanese Iron Man.

>>14203727
Aren't most Gundams painted in the colors of the American flag? The standard color scheme is white limbs on a blue and red body.

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>>14203982
>>14203727

God Gundam should have just been purely red and white

>>14203982
Prior to SEED, the traditional Gundam paint scheme was white/red/blue/yellow. I suppose ditching the yellow was the easiest way to make the Strike distinct from the RX-78-2.

Then the Strike Freedom tried to bring back the yellow with that gold frame rubbish. Let us never speak of Bling Jesus again.

Too bad the Earth Alliance are a bunch of idiots in terms of strategy. they fucking had a resource advantage, and post-NJC leak, they should've gotten the overall advantage. What should've happened was the development of small, very maneuverable and Fast MA's to combat the ZAFT MS.

If they Mass-produced these essentially smaller, low cost MA's, they'd have overwhelmed ZAFT completely.

>>14204037
Too bad they were written like that on purpose because muh Japan is ZAFT and evil Earth Forces is America.

>>14204081
No Orb was the not!japan self insert. What's confusing is Japan was still around in the cosmic era, It just got fucked hard by a orgy of volanic and seismic activity then
all the rich people fucked off to an island smaller than Hawaii which became ORB.

ORB is literally galts gulch banzai superpower edition.

>>14203987

Theres gold there though. Blue and green took, if you want to be technical.

>>14204031

I'd think ditching the core fighter and giving it modular backpacks makes it more distinctive. The paint scheme certainly helps though

>>14204196
And Orb's culture is all sorts of confusing, too. Like, they're the United Emirates of Orb, so apparently they have an emir. They also invoke the blessing of the Hawaiian mother goddess Haumea in a few scenes. It's like Fukuda took Japan and just mashed in random elements from other cultures so he could say "no, they're totally a different country" without actually thinking about what those elements imply.

>>14204037

>If they Mass-produced these essentially smaller, low cost MA's, they'd have overwhelmed ZAFT completely.

They did, and those smaller, low cost MAs aka Moebius were shit and they needed at least five of them just to have a chance to take down a single GINN. Did you actually just forget the scenes where those Moebius basically just die in droves whenever they fight against ZAFT?

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>>14204196
>people who think they're genetically superior and the betters of everyone else
Literally Imperial Japan, brah. That's how the fucks thought. Though there are elements of Japan in ORB, too.

>got fucked hard by a orgy of volanic and seismic activity then all the rich people fucked off to an island smaller than Hawaii which became ORB.
Source?

>>14204228
It's really weird you have a super wanked out ORB which is...
>Major military power with global power projection ability
Despite claiming to be neutral and as such use a defensive military doctrine.
>Major political power
Again its's always involved with major international affairs dispite being a neutral power. It's like if litchtestein was a permenant UNSC member.
>Technologicaly superior to everyone
This one wouldent be so bad if they wern't ahead in damn near every technological field we see in the cosmic era.
>Major economic power
This one's more belivable but when you take it in with everything else? It's just one more sin on the sue scale.

All the while being a tiny island chain and yet Japan in SEED is a ruined husk in comparison

Don't get me wrong small nations can still be far stronger than you'd expect like with Singapore but they are regional powers at best yet ORB is a major power in just about every way.

>>14204196
Orb was not!Japan that could do no wrong to make up for ZAFT being the shitty not!Japan. Because Fukuda's ambition was to surpass Tomino by copying his work but also replacing everything that made it complex and compelling with whatever it took to salve the egos of the 2ch crowd. Hence, a scenario based on WWII where a Japan analogue is not completely wrong and monstrous.

I thought it was darkly hilarious that he pinned the Unit 731 stuff on the EA. Like, fuck, you are desperate.

>>14204246
It's old background stuff they pumped out ages ago i can't remember which bit exactly but it was fleshing out the wars that
created the various factions in the cosmic era. Hell it could have been reconned since this shit is from before DESTINY aired i think.

Basicaly Japan was neutral and managed to stay out of the fighting for the most part then nature fucked em and abunch of Japanese fled the
country and pretty much took over a small chain of islands which had refugee's from around asia gathering on em.

Shortly after that the RoEA annexs Japan.

>>14204272
ZAFT was all over the place they really couldent decide what to do with it half the time.

>>14204240
So why didn't they just make better MAs? No need for shitty mobile suits.

>>14204298

They did in Destiny and it didn't go so well for them either due to LOL Fukuda and Shinn

>>14204081

More like Russia during Ruso Japanese War. The American Solution is to saturate a place with long range bombardment and then mop up

>>14204259

Britain was THE major world power for over a century despite being a tiny island nation, leading in economic and technology - they weren't neutral or defensive by any stretch though.

>>14204283
>ZAFT was all over the place they really couldent decide what to do with it half the time.
The thing was that it was clearly a replacement for Zeon (which was absolutely JapanxNazi Germany) and included enough of the problematic aspects of Japanese philosophy for the comparison to be valid, even if it strayed in some ways.

Coordinators did nothing wrong.

>>14204334
Britain is still massive in both land and population compaired to a chain of volcanic islands which are so small they don't even show up on maps of the CE factions beyond a
circle in the middle of the ocean pointing at them, They only do that on maps for really small shit.

Britain also spent centuries building upto that kind of power.

>>14204334
Well, technically they were a home island with a huge mass of territories that were legally "Britain".

>>14204240
You do realize that Moebius were pre-MS MA, right?

I was thinking about an MA that had the same customizability and features that the Strike had. Imagine a fucking MA with Phase Shift... or even better, had those same shield generators that the Hyperion had.

>>14204403

Well, the EA did build some MA with enough firepower and defense in SEED Destiny which can probably take down a regular fleet with enough numbers and proper support, but Shinn happened and they just go down like flies

>>14204424
that's why I'm talking about platforms that are smaller, faster and more maneuverable.

>>14204478
They did make one the Exus but we only see a single unit in the series.

日本人=キュベレーを強くしろ

なんJ=マクロスを作れ

俺=は~?

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>>14204478
They had these but it really didn't matter how well they performed. By that time the focus had already moved to Kira. Destroys were going down like flies since they didn't have a role to play anymore.

>>14204272
>Because Fukuda's ambition was to surpass Tomino by copying his work but also replacing everything that made it complex and compelling with whatever it took to salve the egos of the 2ch crowd.

Not really, no.
Fact is, for Fukuda, this was prettymuch contract work more than anything else. He got the gig not because he lobbied for it, but because he had enough of a success rate with Cyber Formula that Bandai figured he'd be a good call to revamp the franchise.

The only real 'ambition' he's stated in any interview as far as his contribution to Gundam was 'to bring it back to a pure robot anime, Combattler V-type.'

Source: http://aeug . blogspot . com/2003_11_01_archive.html#106964206584707878

>>14204259
Not to mention, Orb is supposedly this tolerate, loving country where Coordinators and Naturals can live together in peace. But according to Uzumi, people who move to Orb have to follow Orb's ways. Makes it sound that there is an expectation of cultural assimilation going on.

Not to mention, how Uzumi broke the nation's neutrality whenever he could gain something from it (Natural-friendly OS). Or how despite their being an elected parliament, all the power seems to reside with the royal families. And let's not forget one of those royals was planning on taking over the Earth in Astray.

Or you have Cagalli funding Lacus's Terminal organization. She's funding a group that steals classified information from other factions (and whatever MS they want, including ones with illegal tech), leaks that information to other faction leaders (All they'd be doing is making it so nations can't trust each other, causing further military build up), hid the Freedom and Archangel in Orb and I'm going to guess most of the Orb leaders don't know about this. So it's possible she's embezzling funds to do all this.

Land of peace my ass.

Sakuga director Kabashima criticised Morosawa on his blog, and Fukuda says he mets him the other day and Kabashima broke into tears and wailed about how much he regretted ever doubting Morosawa who was a great super genius

Fukuda wants to clear up things from ten years ago, because all people remember are
-What Kabashima posted
-The fact that Kabashima's posts were erased
Which has them assume that his posts were true.

Kabashima already got his punishment back then.

The facts are
-Morosawa was not a huge Nishikawa fan and wasn't even at the last radio recording, Fukuda didn't go there for no reason
-Nishikawa contributed a lot to Seed, taking the time to participate in events and such, and Fukuda got a massive bouquet from him
-It was thus his duty as director to visit Nishikawa's final recording with a bouquet himself
-This was approved by the producer and was done after all the work at the time was cleared up and Fukuda returned directly to the studio immediately after
-Morosawa did nothing wrong
-Most scripts need to be rewritten 3-4 times, some up to 10 times, but Morosawa's were almost always approved on the first go
-She needed time to think before writing but no longer than other people
-She took 1-2 weeks per scripts, in some cases only one day
-Consider how recent shows can't even handle half year series properly before you criticise the Seed Destiny staff
(con.)

>>14204554
-The schedule problems are not the responsibility of the writer or any staff member but the producer and director, who are supposed to balance schedule and quality
-It's one thing to criticise creators on the quality of a work, but speed of work is on the production side of things, so blaming the creators is ridiculous.
-Staff members making public comments and breaking the trust with other staff is something unforgiveable
-But Kabashima himself was unable to do what he wanted at the time and Fukuda thinks he was upset about that
-Kabashima did apologise for everything, and they parted on good terms saying they might work together again sometime
-Morosawa didn't like Fukuda's habit of reading comments online and commenting on the, to her stuff on official pages and articles were everything and there was no point in dirtying your eyes with useless acts
-If you continue making works this sort of misunderstanding will eventually clear up, but he's posting this because Morosawa will never have that chance
-Fukuda says he usually treats all comments on the internet as lies and rubbish, while Morosawa never looked at that sort of stuff to begin with and never knew about all this.
-Kabashima didn't know about most of the facts here, and Fukuda told him about it when they met recently.

Source text (from Facebook):
http://pastebin.com/u9FrUHPP

>>14204537
My characterization was certainly circumstantially-based, but all this tells me is that SEED's issues re: Whitewashing MSG's commentary on WWII were the result of laziness rather than malice. Which isn't much better.

>>14204576
Oh, trust me. I wasn't pointing it out to defend the guy. More saying you were giving the man a little too much credit for something he was prettymuch just winging it on.

>>14203475
Oh boy, another Gundam SEED Destiny thread.
May as well talk about this.

If there's one thing that had always confused me about this series, it's the way the series goes on about "duty". In that doing your duty is a good thing or bad thing based specifically on who's side you're on.

When Orb's soldiers are going on about duty and flying off to honorable death, I guess we're supposed to feel sorry for them? Even though they're partnered up with the Earth Alliance, know that it's Cagailiy hailing them, and spend most of their time hounding the Minerva, who literally have done nothing to them.

But at the same time, when other characters are doing their duty, they're seen as Mindless Attack Dogs or X! or Y!

>>14204554
>>14204560
I feel kind of sorry for Fukuda in a way.
He's gotta do all this hoop jumping to try and defend this mess, because I guess admitting that this thing was a massive screw up would just make things worse?

If I'm reading this correctly, he's saying that Morosawa's first drafts were always accepted on the first go?
Isn't that completely unprofessional? Shouldn't a script be revised or thoroughly looked at first? Am I supposed to believe that GSD was running specifically on first drafts and nothing was wrong with any of the?

That just sounds like a fancy way of saying that the scripts were late so they went through on the first go. Even if that's absolutely true and everything went as intended, there's still a bunch of continuity errors among other things. That's why you don't go with first drafts, because as a writer, all of those great details/plots/storylines/characterization make sense to you, because it's all in your head, but without proper writing behind it, it's just crap.

And I guess that's why I feel bad. He obviously loved his wife and tries so hard to defend her.

But nothing's going to change that this was really poorly written, even for Gundam.

>>14204618

To be fair, it's not up to Murosawa to review drafts and decide whether they need revision or not. That's the job of someone else on staff, I'd guess a producer or director. He makes it sound like she wrote them at an average rate at worst and they were often approved quickly, so if it's true it's additionally the fault of someone else up the chain for okaying them despite being a first draft.

Also, he doesn't think it's a massive screw up and never has. He's always thought it came out the way he and Murosawa wanted by all accounts and if people didn't like it, that was their problem, not his. He's not excusing a fuck up there, he's explaining a staff issue - which is different.

>>14204534

Jesus Christ those are ugly. Which is a pity, because I really like the Moebius Zero and Exus. If they'd continued along those lines instead they could have turned out something great - especially if they'd made them nuclear powered and phase shifted (assuming they're not, since it's not on the Wiki).

>>14204618
>He's gotta do all this hoop jumping to try and defend this mess, because I guess admitting that this thing was a massive screw up would just make things worse?

I don't think he views it as a screw up though. To him, it still had amazing DVD sales and while the ratings did suffer, there was still a bunch of people watching it. I think he views the people who complain about Destiny as some sort of vocal minority. "Who cares if mecha/Gundam fans like the SRW Z version of the story better? There are way more SEED fans who loved what Morosawa and myself did."

The impression I've gotten out of him is he's not an artistic person, like at all. All that matters to him is the show is exciting, not that it makes sense or is reliant on him pulling stuff out of his ass. He will move the show in whatever direction he wants it to, regardless of logic.

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>>14203727

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>>14204656
>ver. USA
My fucking sides 10/10

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>>14204327

The Earth Alliance is EVIL AMERIKKKA in politics; The Atlantic Federation (aka America) controls the union and uses an abundance of force to solve any of its problems, from microwaving the Eurasian guys at JOSH-A to nuking not!Solomon instead of going through a conventional battle, is racist as fuck, uses their own version of 9/11 (Break the World) to start a war, and the whole thing is controlled by an evil cabal of weapons dealers that wage war for their own profit.

I dunno where running Auschwitz ties into the whole thing, but I bet Fukuda thought that was brilliant commentary on the evil Amerikan thugs.

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>>14203727

>implying Calamity isn't more American than that Space Commie loving Freedom

>>14205027
>implying both can't be
>freedom represents america's will to progress forward into the future
>Calamity represents american imperialism and the military industrial complex

>>14205007
If you're talking about the labs at Lodonia, I'll repeat that that was the hilariously fucked up attribution of actual Japanese war crimes to the American analog.

>>14205057
He might be referring to the random slave labor work camps that turned up for all of two episodes so Shinn could liberate the workers and be the hero (...followed by that weirdly kind of tasteless scene where we see EA officers on their knees being executed in a move that someone at production was probably thinking would look fresh and edgy in a 'ripped from the headlines' way)

I just want to throw it out there that the Earth Alliance literally started everything. This isn't like the OYW where Zeon declares indpendence and said "fuck earth, we will rule in space". No, ZAFT had already been an independent nation for decades, and they were initially nuked for the crime of growing their own food.

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Every time there's a new SEED and Destiny threads, I learn something new about how it's genuinely in the running for worst piece of /m/ related fiction ever produced.

>>14204537
>The only real 'ambition' he's stated in any interview as far as his contribution to Gundam was 'to bring it back to a pure robot anime, Combattler V-type.'
But he already gave us that. It was called Dendoh and it was a fun show.

>>14205105


That's what I'm talking about.

>>14205105
>>14205173
Ah. Well, slave labor camps were also an Axis thing so

>>14205007

Guantanama Bay maybe?

>>14205144

Zeon was independent too. The only thing the federation did was embargo them, which didn't stop them dealing with Jupiter for energy at the very least.

>>14205237
>Zeon was independent too.

They declared independence, they weren't internationally recognized as a nation. ZAFT was.

>>14205240
Actually, the events of SEED was ZAFTs war of independence.

See, before the series the PLANTS were owned by the nations that sponsored their construction, and the Coordinators migrated to them to avoid being attacked by Blue Cosmos. However, the sponsor nations used the Coordinators as a means to create high end products they would have a monopoly on. Sponsor nations got rich, but the people of the PLANTS didn't have the right to govern themselves. Being banned from growing their own food was simply a means to keep them in check.

Patrick Zala and Papa-Clyne formed ZAFT to fight for their people's independence, but they mostly did it through non-violent means at first. There was their civil disobedience like withholding their manufactured goods, as well as converting Junius 7 into a place where they could grow food. They even offered those goods to nations that would recognize their independence. But the sponsors wouldn't have it and tried to use military force and stopping food shipments to force them to submit. They even helped Blue Cosmos commit attacks on the PLANTS.

That's when ZAFT showed off their new mobile suits.

There was supposed to be a meeting with the UN (who in real life are very opposed to the types of things the sponsor nations did), but it was bombed by an unknown group. Since Chairman Clyne was not present due to his flight being delayed, ZAFT was blamed by the sponsor nations who then formed the EA.

The EA later attacked Junius 7, and ZAFT seeded the planet with N-Jammers. Then the events of SEED happened.

And none of this backstory has any bearing on what happened on screen.

>>14205273
You could have saved a lot of space by just saying "it's Blue Cosmos's fault"

>>14205300
Yeah, but I just wanted to point out how Fukuda ignored the backstory completely. You'd never know any of this happened from just the show itself. This seems more realistic and the contrast illustrates just how shallow the story of SEED really is

>>14205273
That sounds more interesting than anything that happened in SEED

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>>14204537
>Fukuda's ambition was to bring Gundam back to being a thing it never was.

So... he was a complete retard?

>>14205379
and they say his bitch was the one with brain cancer!

>Mars Sphere showed Destiny Plan could work

Fuck the Earth Sphere, Red Planet for life.

>>14205240

They had to recognise them as a nation in the first place to embargo them, since embargoes are against nations. Or to go to war with them. Or sign a treaty with them.

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>>14204656
Ver. California.

>>14205404

She didn't, she had ovarian cancer.

Didn't Fukuda explicitly say something like how gundam could never really "be" for an American audience because LE DUMB AMERIKKUNTS wouldn't understand fighting for peace instead of fighting for a country?

Yeah, suddenly I don't feel so bad about his wife dying of cancer.

>>14204347
>problematic
>>tumblr

Don't use their language, son.

>>14204489

That's because the Exus had the same problem as the Mobius Zero's.

Only a few pilots with excellent spatial awareness could make use of them.

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>>14205588
Listen, I'm not even going to make this about America.

But what in the everloving fuck does JAPAN know about fighting for peace?

>>14204554
>>14204560
>Wall of text supposedly defending Fukuda/Morosawa's insane writing
>Reveals they see any person criticizing them as lowly filth who don't deserve to question their *perfect* storyline

>>14205588
That was one of the producers actually.

> Q: When you look at it that way, there's a chance for Gundam in foreign markets.

> A: The North American market is difficult. Gundam depicts war through the eyes of characters like Amuro and Kira, who are against fighting. These types of characters and the cruelty of war lend themselves to anti-war themes. But a protagonist like Amuro isn't acceptable in the North American market. It has to be a type of character who fights for his country. If we end up creating a Gundam for the North American market, it will be entirely different from the anti-war Gundam of Japan. I doubt if we could call that Gundam. Instead of introducing the anime to the North American market, we want them to know the story. For example, knowing about Gundam through video games, then going to watch the animated series.

This man, Yasuo Miyakawa, also did 00, AGE and Unicorn (which Bandai reps said did great or something in America). That interview also has him saying that they have to create new fans (with 00), because "However, maintaining the current status quo (read: After Destiny and Stargazer) won't allow Gundam to survive another 10 years."

>>14205800
>also did 00, AGE and Unicorn
So it's conclusive proof that what went right in 00 was a fluke?

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>>14205800
Was Amuro really against war?
He only pussied out a few times because he was tired and afraid. Then you have characters like Kamillie who flat out say that certain people can't be allowed to live.

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>>14205735
They like to think they do because muh Hiroshima and muh we were the victims. Because that's what happened, RIGHT?

>>14205007
This guy gets it. Japan's just butthurt 'cause they lost WW2.

>>14205800
Does he think the UC fans are so old they're on their deathbeds or something?

>>14205443

>entirely beam wings

The future of Freedom.

>>14205832
He got burnt out after the OYW it seemed but that might in part be because the Feddies/Titans pretty much had him under house arrest.

And that's not good for the spirit. He got back in the saddle pretty fast once he got in contact with the AEUG/Karaba and didn't get back out of the cockpit until he died.

He fought for his homeland plenty of times.

Although this is the guy who did 00, so I guess Unicorn was a fluke.

>>14205913

So a V2 or Turn-A copy? Not that other series like Code Geass and Majestic Prince haven't had it too.

>>14205443

>Ver. California

Can't have arms because no right to bear them, and the head vulcans are limited to 10 rounds each because MUH CHILLUNS.

>>14204540
>Not to mention, Orb is supposedly this tolerate, loving country where Coordinators and Naturals can live together in peace. But according to Uzumi, people who move to Orb have to follow Orb's ways. Makes it sound that there is an expectation of cultural assimilation going on.
>Not to mention, how Uzumi broke the nation's neutrality whenever he could gain something from it (Natural-friendly OS). Or how despite their being an elected parliament, all the power seems to reside with the royal families. And let's not forget one of those royals was planning on taking over the Earth in Astray.
>Or you have Cagalli funding Lacus's Terminal organization. She's funding a group that steals classified information from other factions (and whatever MS they want, including ones with illegal tech), leaks that information to other faction leaders (All they'd be doing is making it so nations can't trust each other, causing further military build up), hid the Freedom and Archangel in Orb and I'm going to guess most of the Orb leaders don't know about this. So it's possible she's embezzling funds to do all this.
>Land of peace my ass.

And the other lands are willing perform wars of extermination. Compared to the other global alliances, they were fucking hippies

>>14205856

I prefer to compare Destiny's conflict to the Ruso/Japanese conflict with bits of WWI.

>>14205921
Plus, Kira got back in the saddle and defended the Orb troops against ZAFT. He kidnapped Cagalli and made a big case about Orb's ideals. Hell, when Durandal sends ZAFT to Orb to capture Djibril, Kira and the rest go "They're trying to take over Orb?" No shits were given about the state of the world, just about Orb.

Kira fought for his country a lot.

>>14206016
>Compared to the other global alliances, they were fucking hippies
Not even remotely. The fact that they opposed direct warfare involving themselves does nothing for the fact they were fucking scumbags willing to inflict the same amount of suffering through other means, and provoke other nations into wars with each other.

>>14206061
Not to mention, Orb's military got rid of Durandal and helped Cagalli's friend Lacus come to power in ZAFT. Plus Kira makes it a big thing about how he's going to take a more proactive approach to maintaining peace. Considering he doesn't give a rat's ass about why conflict occurs and just puts a stop to it, we may be seeing CB-style interventions in the future under his and Lacus-sama's command.

So, Kira's either going to use force to make humanity play nice or he's going to make other nations unite to stop him. There may be a point where he has to pull out a doomsday weapon and threaten people himself. After all, his version of UNDERSTANDING was already gunboat diplomacy.

>>14206096

So whats the alternative? The logical conclusion of the Bloody Valentine War? Is this what you want to see happen in SEED? If wasn't for Terminal, humanity would had exterminated themselves.

Blame Kira for his gunboat diplomacy but you already seen what happened at Josh-A and Patrick's internal purge

>>14206140
Except the Bloody Valentine War had someone behind the scenes passing out information in order to escalate the conflict, so that it would get to the point where both sides would be out to genocide each other. Terminal is doing the exact same thing except they're trying to do it in the name of "peace," which to them seems to mean everybody listen to Lacus.

Terminal wasn't around in the first series, it was something Lacus created between shows.

>>14206188

Even without escalation you are looking at a XCOM2 scenario right here for Naturals? Now report to your stasis vat and for genetic decompilation to create new coordinators

>>14205415
Earth isn't Mars.
What works for one isn't guaranteed to work for the other.

Mars has a smaller populace, a more controlled environment, and a distinct lack of other options compared to living in the Earth Sphere.

It's basically allowing the Destiny Plan to play out on Easy Mode.

>>14206199

Except that's not how the Destiny Plan works. What the DP entails is looking at a person's genes and forcing them into whatever role their genes say they are best suited for. Humanity suffers less because they all have their proper place, and the whole thing is enforced through a doomsday weapon (and even then, some versions of the series like the novels have it as completely voluntary).

Basically, using force to keep humanity in line just like what Kira plans to do.

>>14206360

Except naturals have been proven to be worthless at nearly everything. They cant fight even with superior numbers, they are inferior in every field. Havent destiny drilled into your head that barring inethical experiments Naturals have fuck all chance against Coordinators.

The only a Natural can do is keep the genetic stock from degenerating further

>>14206451
And the Coordinators can? Because in the Cosmic Era, you'll job hard no matter what side you're on if you're not on the good guys side. FLAWLESS VICTORY over ZAFT, remember?

>>14206461

Bit EA jobbed harder

>>14206463

The EA also came up with the five GAT-X series Gundams, whose style and technology influenced much of ZAFT's future mobile suit development. Coordinator honestly never come across as better than baseline humans on average and the distinction is a purely informed one. The show has to tell you it exists and which side any given character exists on because otherwise you'd never know.

>>14206513

The Strike Daggers are also demonstrated to make Naturals at least capable of outfighting ZAFT MS, even though they're less graceful and more clunky (unless that was just an animation quirk and not intentional).

>>14206188
See, the thing is Rau only passed out information once, on the NJC, and that just enabled the EA to try nuking the PLANTs. They already wanted to do it.

The problem with criticizing Kira's gunboat diplomacy is that brute force is in fact the only thing that any faction in CE understands. The EA isn't being manipulated from the top by a cabal of racists and they're the only bad eggs. We see generic soldiers spouting off the Blue Cosmos catchphrase. Every Natural who isn't a main character is a violent thug who wants to kill all the space monsters. In any other setting, Kira and Lacus forcing the two sides into playing nice would make them the villains, but in the setting as presented it's the only way to keep one or both sides from going up in a nuclear fireball.

>>14206568

Actually he did leaked information twice, the first was passing on the information for Operation Spitbreak

>>14206568
That just further paints Fukuda as a dumbass and potentially a threat to the people around him, that this is what he considers the thought processes of a normal human being.

>>14206581
> Q: About Rau, Azrael and Patrick Zala

> A: They are type of people you can't talk to to solve things so their deaths were forthcoming.

>>14206360
Doesn't that assume an impractical level of genetic determinism, though? Baseline human genomes are messy, there is no "best role" for a given set of genes because we're full of redundancies and inefficiencies and cross-coding that's difficult to decipher. Even Coordinator genes would still be complex enough to allow multiple possible roles for any given person. If you really wanted to use the Destiny Plan, you'd need to replace all Naturals and Coordinators alike with rigidly-defined genetic castes. Simplify their DNA, reduce the complexity of the problem. So the Destiny Plan is either impossible or thinly-disguised genocide of the entire human species.

>>14206618

It's a Brave New World anon

>>14206618
>Doesn't that assume an impractical level of genetic determinism, though?
You say that like the Destiny Plan wasn't something Fukuda pulled out of his ass at the last minute in order to make people side with Team Kira.

>>14206653

Unlikely, the Destiny Plan was probably Fukuda's intention from the start.

It's everything else in between that was a gigantic asspull.

>>14206140
The Problem is they never fixxed shit the 2nd war is 100% a result of the first ones ending.

While they got the EA/Plants to sign a treaty they didn't solve the problems that caused the war in the first place. then they fucked off to ORB to
play happy families and got upset when people started fighting again.

Then they run around attacking anyone who does something they don't like untill the war end's with the EA crippled ZAFT under
Clyne and ORB facing no consequences what so ever for all the shit they pulled.

>>14206360
>>14206451
>>14206618
The problem with the whole Destiny Plan argument (in either direction) is we simply do. not. know enough to rule it out as objectively evil. You can't nail Durandal down as this psychotic tyrant bent on nuking anyone who questions him because NOBODY, at ANY point, gives him the benefit of the doubt to openly try and question him. We don't know if there are clauses built into the Plan to deal with the genetic gap between Coordinators because no one gives him a chance to discuss the issue, ever. He goes on TV, shows his dumb little chibi cartoon announcing the plan, and the only argument the Lacus asshats make is "That's evil because we say it's evil" and continue to blame him for sending the assassins at the beginning of the show (which was a shaky self-justification they never bothered investigating to begin with).

In their attempt to tell a story about the evils of bigotry and intolerance, Fukuda and Morosawa unintentionally turned their self-insert characters into the most bigoted and intolerant characters in the series. Destiny requires you to be fanatically in love with Kira and Lacus and willing to take absolutely everything they say as gospel for the plot to work.

>>14206653
Most likely.

>>14207020
*the gap between Coordinators and Naturals

>>14207020
This Anon speaks the truth. Of course even if they HAD taken the chance to explain things in more detail, it would have still ended up as "Durandal is Evil".

>>14206513

The issue is that almost every character in Destiny is a Coordinator. The only Natural of note that isn't BUHAHAHAHA EVIL (Lord Dijbril) or shuffled off to the sidelines (Cagalli) is Murrue.

It completely screws with SEED's message that Coordinators and Naturals can get along when Destiny has every jackass, from the Hawkes to the big bad guy, Durandal, be a Coordinator and the only Natural representatives of note be a very poorly-written "AMERIKKKA SUX" political message and the Titty Captain. I mean hell, almost all of the couples at the end of SEED had one Natural and one Coordinator. Come Destiny, all of them have either broken up or will break up as the show progresses.

Fukuda doesn't strike me as the type that's competent enough to intentionally do this, but it's pretty damning that Destiny walks over SEED's message and proves that Patrick Zala, SEED's fucking Gihren knockoff, was correct that Coordinators are totally better than Naturals in every way and super cool!

>>14207034
But we all know that any explanation wouldn't be sufficient enough because the disconnect started with the second half of SEED.

>>14203475
Every Gundam after Zeta proved that the Titans were completely right about spacenoids.

>>14203563
That's because you aren't privy to the special masonic version.

>>14207020
I think it's pretty safe to say that Gilbert is the one that sent those assassins. He is the one with a fake Lacus running around.
I think the issue is that it bring sup the question of to why this supposed super genius would go out of his way to be so dumb.

First of all, he reveals Meer before Lacus is dead. What if Lacus just really felt like singing again? Oops!

Second, if they know where she is, why not just take a gigantic beam cannon and just blow up the house with it from afar? Didn't the assassins get caught by the security outside? If they did it like that, then besides the fact that nobody would ever see it coming, it'd be really unlikely that she survive or at least not end up hurt.

Third, they show up in ZAFT Mobile suits. Shouldn't an operation like this be Coordinators in EA mobile suits? It wouldn't be that hard to capture or to build their own look-alikes. Even if you could argue that they're some strange thrid party, that's already going to tip the scales towards them.

Lastly; why Lacus? Is she really THAT powerful of a political figure? Doesn't most of the world only know her as a singer? Wouldn't have been best to build up Meer as someone original? It's not like she wouldn't have become popular. And even if she isn't as popular as Lacus, at the very least, Lacus's existence wouldn't completely invalidate you, or she wouldn't be able to easily just pull the plug on your operation.

>>14207101
Hm.... true that. Also hello there, Fllay.

>>14207187

I'd agree on everything except the second portion of the last part. The entire reason of the whole debacle with Meer was to use Lacus' reputation to give the public that Durandal's administration is endorsed by a public figure well-known and beloved by the masses of the PLANTs. I doubt the idea would work with anyone else, who, compared to the kind of public sway Lacus had over the PLANT citizenship, would literally be a "literally who" issue. If Lacus' reputation wasn't good enough for this, the show would have just given you "he's a very glib Gil" as the explanation of "why do people listen to him so much?"

I mean, the whole issue routes back to SEED in how Lacus has any sort of reputation in the first place to be able to command such admiration that Durandal can use it as a leverage for his own ends, but I'm not touching that can of worms with an MS-sized pole.

>>14205800
>Gundam depicts war through the eyes of characters like Amuro
>Amuro
how does this guy misunderstand his own series?

>>14207239
Lacus's newtype powers allow her to influence people.

>>14207208
>>14207101
It says a lot about SEED threads that they tend to summon the most (and worst) tripfags.

>>14207322
>Shinn, did I ever tell you about...the legend of Darth Lacus

>>14207058
Not exactly. There's still Mu with his Newtype powers (which is treated like a genetic thing), plus Cagalli has the SEED factor (which, according to series lore, says that her and the other people with it will guide humanity to the next step of evolution). All of the pilots on Team Kira aren't normal humans, they each have something that makes them better in their genes.

So any argument about equality is kinda ruined by this execution.

>>14207020

There isnt. Havent you seen how hopelessly and completely outmatched Naturals are? Its an unfair terms of surrender with Naturals losing everything and suffering from XCOM 2 style conquest. Read Xcom liberation to see what did the Aliens did to humans and apply that to Naturals in Seed

>>14205800
>Amuro
>Against fighting

Look, he may have had PTSD out the ass from chopping up zakus like fresh romaine lettuce, but Amuro was no Kira. He broke a man's cockpit with the hilt of his beam saber after it ran out of power, and he never pretended like he could just use called shots to disable limbs and weapons systems and win the war with love. Miyakawa is on something strong, and I want a hit of it.

>>14205826

How much control do producers have over content, exactly?

>>14205960

Also the pilot wears an "undocumented and unafraid" shirt and it has "tuck Frump" engraved on the V-Fin.

>>14208283
It depends on the project. Some are a producer's vision, others are the directors. Each can add their own elements to a story, and at time they can butt heads with each other about the way things should go. Some directors fight with their producers, others do what they're told.

>>14207621
Not to mention, the only regular natural pilots we see aligned with Kira were the Astray girls, who all died. SEED is shit at telling us people are equal.

>>14209555
>>14207621
I thought the point was that even though co-ordinators are more competent, Naturals can still get along with them, and neither is more worth of living than the other.

>>14209618

If that was the point, I probably lost sight of it after 90 or so episodes of zero representation of any kind of intention to "get along" from the largest body of Naturals in the Earth Sphere.

Not 100 episodes because at least Admiral Halberton existed.

>>14207239
>I mean, the whole issue routes back to SEED in how Lacus has any sort of reputation in the first place

Daughter of Siegward Clyne anon

Apparently the PLANTS take princesses more seriously than ORB takes ACTUAL PRINCESSES

>>14210129
I can buy the story of Lacus being well-received because she champions a peace-aligned approach through her songs and frequently appears beside her father during his public speeches. The songs' lyrics reflected that approach, at least.

The show doesn't show any political activities on her part, though, which just gives the impression that people listen to her because they've got her CD. At least in SEED, barely anyone's listening because they're too busy being genocidal.

>>14207187

There's also Meer sugery taking awhile based on her diary and despite that she was ready to go just about as the war kicked off and Durandal needed her. It's a little hard for his justification that he needed a Lacus to cool the Plant peoples heads for the new war breaking out and didn't know where the real one was when his fake that took awhile to set up was done far in advance of any hostilties breaking out, unless he was planning of it happening.

Plus the show never even tries to point at anyone else. The other suspects, Djbril Yuna and the Junius Seven terrorists either are shown to have no idea why Lacus is so important and why they should care about her, or vanish from the story after their mission with the implication being that was the entire cell and they all died.

Durandal was clearly the one, and they set him up as giving shifty looks to the camera when nobody was looking from the very first episode. It's just that for some reason, I guess because everyone in the fanbase just rolled with it being him because it was so obvious that they apparantly forgot during production that they never confirmed it was him to the characters.

>>14207844

They really aren't. Natural grunt pilots and Coordinator grunt pilots are portrayed as relatively equal once they get equal machines, and we see plenty of shots of Natural grunts wrecking Coordinator grunts once they get MS's.

The problem is Kira Athrun and Shinn are so absolutely overpowered with their Seed modes they crush anything else. But they aren't the average Coordinator. They're far better. Lunamaria is the average Coordinator and she got taken out by a Murasame, and is crushed in two seconds by Athrun despite both being Coordinators.

>>14207844
>Havent you seen how hopelessly and completely outmatched Naturals are

Once the Strike Daggers enter the picture it's pretty even, granted Strike Dagger weaponry is generally vastly superior to the stuff carried by anything ZAFT has except their new command suits.

>>14210345
the standard guaiz has weapons that are equal or better than the strike dagger's loadout

>>14210353
The Gelgoog's more powerful and more advanced than the Strike Dagger, but it doesn't get fielded in numbers large enough to make a difference until the battle of A Baoa Qu though

I'm pretty sure at least one of the Astray girls dies fighting a Gelgoog

File: 234367785856.jpg (70KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

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>lets take a suit focused totally on ranged assault
>and make a variant that dual wields swords as its primary weapon

I don't know who was in charge of Earth Alliance weapons development, but god damn it they need medals and funding.

>>14210359
>The Gelgoog's more powerful and more advanced than the Strike Dagger
I wouldn't go that far

>>14210426
the EA makes 3 different kinds of MS frames, X100 indicates general purpose, X200 indicates some kind of special tech like colloid use, and X300 is transforming

so I guess they just went with the latest X100 model as a base for both heavy firepower and close range. calamity isn't exactly lightweight, but I suppose it looks like it packs more power than a duel or strike frame

>>14210276
People in real life don't pay much attention to actual policies anyway. Really, considering the kind of shit that happens in real life politics, for all the bullshit that is seed destiny, I can actually buy the fact that Lacus got by purely from being a very successful pop idol.

>>14203475
>>14203478
who are those characters?

>>14210294

The Naturals relied on swarm tactics and their newer MS like the Windam was virtually worthless despite being cutting edge.

>>14205362
It does, but it's also a problem with the timeline. See, SEED may be a decent-okay anime in the context of itself. Taken alone, it has problems but nothing fatally wrong with it.

But you attach it to a background like this and we start running into problems. ZAFT was after independence, not simply revenge for Junius 7. It had allies Earthside that were attacked and taken over by the EA. Those kinds of details are completely ignored by the show.

So, independence is not a reason to fight Lacus? Royals in Orb who want to take over the world? Kinda goes against the show making Orb the Land of Peace. Blind preacher's people tried to steal an N-Jammer canceller-equipped MS to give to the EA to end the energy crisis? Lacus's buddy could have wiped out the PLANTS! Then you have the cancer that is Destiny, that was eventually grafted onto SEED through the Remasters.

In short, the deeper we go into the Cosmic Era the weaker the writing of the shows becomes. It's like Fukuda and his wife just focused on the show itself and ignored what other staff did to flesh out the timeline. It's that lack of care on their part that eventually killed the future.

>>14205832
>>14205886
>>14207296
>>14208270

I think the problem is that they were trying to save face. The Cosmic Era was promoted as UC for the 21st Century (Seed in particular was called "21st Century First Gundam), but it wasn't made in the same spirit. Whereas 0079 was Tomino trying to break the mold of anime at the time, Seed was Banrise attempting to make a super marketable version of it.

Just look at some of Fukuda's comments in the past. He wanted to make Seed like old-school super robots because "kids think those are the coolest." Not to mention Fukuda's reputation for making disparaging comments at other Gundams, mostly the ones that didn't sell that well. That's the guy in charge of this mess.

They had to pretend UC and CE are the same, otherwise it would be transparent that they didn't care what the original had to say (instead coming off as idiots). That they didn't care to make a 21st Century First Gundam, just a Gundam that sells like crazy.

Thankfully, the mecha community in Japan aren't that thick. I love how Amuro is treated with respect in crossover games, while Kira is treated like a naive idiot who, while with good intentions, doesn't understand what he's doing.

>>14217190
>He wanted to make Seed like old-school super robots
>Kira doesn't even have an uplifting theme that plays as he uses the Schwert Gewehr to vertically bisect the Mobile Armor of the week

BULLSHIT

>>14217241
If they had let Fukuda off his leash, the Freedom would have had a rocket punch and shot lazers out of it's eyes. But alas, they had to at least pretend it was in the spirit of the original.

>>14217270

At least the Destiny got a shining finger

>>14217270
Destroy does have rocket punch potential and mouth beams.

>>14213200

>It's like Fukuda and his wife just focused on the show itself and ignored what other staff did to flesh out the timeline. It's that lack of care on their part that eventually killed the future.

Didn't some of the background details / stories come out after the show finished airing? A CE version of Gihren's Greed would have been interesting since we could play out a lot of things differently from the show including a RAU WAS RIGHT aka Mutually Assured Destruction Ending for EA and ZAFT

>>14217241

Well, Fly! Freedom and other themes were occasionally used when Kira decided to beamspam the fuck out of everyone

>>14217292
Not to mention

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03SbEfBcpLc

>>14217309

I remembered how that was apparently meant to be for Shinn back when Destiny aired on TV, and then my Sides were nuked when its first use was for Strike Freedom's debut. Then it got "fixed" in Remaster since Vestige replaced Wings of Words as the last ED and this was used for the debut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oea9ifTiffk

>>14217241
Funds ran dry after paying TM Revolution and Kajiura Yuki's Fiction Junction.

>>14217350

But giving Kira a super robot style powerup sequence, finishing attack, and pose would have saved even MORE money, you could shave off a whole two minutes of animation with that by reusing it each episode

>>14217350
>super robot style powerup sequence
SEED Mode

> finishing attack,

Stock footage battles

> and pose

SEED is notorious for it's MS posing.

>>14217326

They were playing it everywhere in Destiny's TV debut. They even played it in the previews for next episode.

I guess since they'd been hyping "Vestige written just for Seed Destiny by TM Revolution" all show they HAD to stuff it in wherever they could.

>>14217287
Strike Freedom has a cannon built into it's stomach and the DRAGOONS can be used to stab opponents with beam tips.

>>14217449

>Destiny's TV debut

Maybe my memory is a bit blurry since that was ages ago, but wasn't the music used really ominous?

>>14217500

That's Legend with the stabby DRAGOONs

>>14217527
Freedom also has them, according to it's official specs. Just like how the beam sabers can be combined into a spear-like weapon that's only shown in video games.

Then look at the SFs originally planned name, Super Freedom.

>>14217449
They didn't play it in the episodes themselves until the SF debut though. Destiny got a pretty lame theme for the debut against Athrun and then the evil monk chorus for the battle against the Destroys.

>>14217527

I meant the TV run of Destiny the series, not the Gundam.

Destiny Gundam got evil music as it's debut, although what did you expect when it's debut was basically crushing a helpless Athrun?

>>14217292
>Didn't some of the background details / stories come out after the show finished airing? A CE version of Gihren's Greed would have been interesting since we could play out a lot of things differently from the show including a RAU WAS RIGHT aka Mutually Assured Destruction Ending for EA and ZAFT

Wouldn't there have been some sort of series Bible or something? Like, "here's the details/lore/background of the setting. Keep these in mind when turning in your scripts." Stuff they had worked out before they even began animating it. Remember, the Astray side stories were being released right alongside the TV show and viewers were encouraged to check those out to see how Kira survived his fight with Athrun.

Not to mention, a lot of information was available to the public on official websites. There is information that was added later or retconned, but they should have had a lot of the more broader details worked out in advance.

Granted, if the Astray thing turned out to be "that idiot Fukuda made a huge-ass plothole in the show, make something up to fix it in the comic," I wouldn't be surprised. How far ahead of airing would that episode have been made?

>>14217449
actually, by default Kira's actual theme is Meteor.

>>14217544
What specs are you looking at?

>>14221195

Meteor is way too good for Kira.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-KSEm4Uulw

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253KB, 1920x1080px

>>14221132
The Junius Seven treaty is supposed to be the backbone of Destiny's entire plot. Yet nobody on the Archangel gives a single shit about regularly using a nuclear-powered MS in complete defiance to the treaty.

They never acknowledge that they're doing something inherently evil. They never seem regretful about doing something just as bad as the people they're pointing fingers at. They never even try to throw together an argument about how their situation is different and the ends justify the means or whatever. They handle this whole the dilemma by NOT handling it, constantly acting like the anti-nuke treaty simply isn't a thing that's supposed to be part of the plot.

There's your first clue on how much of a flying fuck the writers gave about basic consistency.

>>14225081

SEED has a lot of background information that would've worked really well had it been integrated better, like the Atlantic/Eurasian split in the EA. Like, you could've had the Eurasian Federation team up with Lacus and friends to stop the Atlantic Federation once it became obvious the Atlantic Feds were out of control after JOSH-A and give her some of their resources (raw materials, intel, some Strike Daggers the Atlantic Feds gave the Eurasians as a token MS force so as to make their relationship seem not too unbalanced on paper) in exchange for helping defeat the Atlantic Federation's space forces, but just it's used as an excuse for the Luna One knockoff at the start of SEED and as an easy way to explain why the EA has turned extremely evil in the middle of the show.

Same with N-Jammers; it would've been really cool if the show spent an episode or two where the Archangel crew saw the first-hand effects of the N-Jammers (devastated cities, people starving because there's no more power) to give them a "why we fight" episode. Instead, it's just an excuse to give Kira and Athrun really cool and powerful Gundams.

>>14221220
Those features mostly appear in video games.

Why don't any of the neutral nations on Earth hate PLANT for crippling their nations with N-Jammers?

>>14225226
Well Orb has thermal energy or some shit, nations that acknowledged ZAFT's independence were taken over by the EA, Scandinavia is small, and it would completely fuck over the messages of "THERE'S NO REASON TO FIGHT/WE CAN ALL LIVE IN PEACE" if nations acted realistically. It has to be Entire Earth Vs. ZAFT.

>>14225081
I love how the wiki says the major problem with the treaty was how it didn't dismantle Blue Cosmos. Reading that shit, it looks like the entire thing was meant to return things to the status quo so that Orb was in Cagalli's hands again and Kira is the only guy with a nuclear suit.

>>14225226
This is why I hate ZAFT and the writers for not depicting a realistic reaction that people should have towards ZAFT and Coordinators in geheral. ZAFT’s foreign policy involves utilizing Nuclear Jammers that targeted the entire Earth’s surface, not just the Union of nations solely responsible for destroying one of their colonies, effectively eliminating the Earth's major energy supply and indirectly causing the deaths of millions of civilians. This is rarely mentioned in episodes, but it completely justifies the existence of the EA, the majority of whom were not responsible for the Blood Valentine incident. .

ZAFT decided one day to be their own independent state, despite the fact that their space colonies were funded by, designed by, and were official property of EA nations. George Glenn, one of the main architects responsible for the creation of the PLANTs and the First Coordinator, never intended the PLANTs to be a means of genetic stratification that separated Coordinators from the rest of humanity. He never envisioned the PLANTs to be exclusive safe-spaces for Coordinators that only served Coordinators.

The PLANTs were large-scale production sites whose primary purpose was to facilitate the development of human civilization, benefiting all people, not just Coordinators. ZAFT changed all this, convincing Coordinators they are an oppressed class that would never truly be integrated with Naturals. ZAFT’s entire existence relies on the assertion that Coordinators should be a completely separate nation from the majority of humanity, an ideology that completely opposes the objectives of their creators (who were mostly Naturals), and the people who constructed the PLANTs.

>>14229194

To be fair, it's in keeping with the fact that Zeon attacked every other side, destroyed lots of colonies and killed billions. And yet people keep supporting them for some reason, and every leader manages to find recruits and often popular support.

To be less fair, it's dumb in both cases, but it is consistent.

>>14205150
Dendoh'a battle music never failed to get my blood pumping.

I just want to say thank you to everyone in this and other Destiny discussions. The Cosmic Era left a bad taste in my mouth over how much wasted potential there was, as well as the self-righteous, hypocritical nature of it's protagonists. In the past on other forums, I would usually have to keep my mouth shut about these kinds of thoughts. Not to say that there aren't SEED fans I didn't have fun discussions with over Kira's morality and his turn to the dark side (I am really good at painting him as the real fallen hero of the show), but there was always the chance some of the more passionate fanboys would go apeshit.

>"Things are going to be alright in the Cosmic era because Lacus is now in charge. All Kira is doing is taking out all the assholes who want to create war, while all Lacus wants to create is peace. The show says they are good and pure, so all this discussion about how they are wrong is a joke.

You get the idea. So, thanks /m/ for giving me a place where I can air my thoughts. Holy shit, is this show horribly written.

>>14229370

I'm actually okay with that justification because it fits in with my archaic 19th century "Great Man" ideals.

>all we need is a Napoleon, and everything will be fine
>everyone who isn't Napoleon can get fucked

>>14229379
I'm just more that guy who says audience interpretation > authorial intent. People are going to look at things differently, and author can't change that no matter what they say. There are characters we're supposed to sympathize with that we can't, good arguments made by antagonists that are simply brushed away, evil characters people will say did nothing wrong... you ger the idea. Fukuda can't just tell people that Kira is supposed to be this paragon hero, he has to make us feel he is one.

And the way I see it, Kira's more a knight templar character. He doesn't exhibit the compassion that everyone says he has, nor does his relationship with Lacus have any of it's supposed chemistry. The execution just isn't there, which is Fukuda/Morosawa's fault no matter how what they say.

You know, I'm sure there were similar discussions going on in Japan back in the day. Would make sense in light of Fukuda's comment that all he and Morosawa cared about was what the official sources said over the fans, and his reaction to the changes made by the SRW crew.