How beefy of a Gundam would you need to take down a Vajra, assuming

You'll need a Newtype and a post Zeon suit.

>>14194563
Zeta or better, then? Yeah, I can see that working out.

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Hard to say. Vajra armor has been shown to be ridiculously tough depending on the episode.
>>14194563
Would a Newtype even work against a Vajra? They don't really have emotions or thoughts so how would they react to their attacks?

>>14194570
I'm talking after Unicorn.

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A lot of MS from ZZ and beyond could do it.

It's not too hard so as long you have a high powered beam weapon and enough mobility to tangle until you land a solid hit.

Also, Macross melee weapons are shit. Beam sabers of any kind would be very effective against it.

>>14194559
funnels,newtypes,I-fields,beam shiled,minovsky crafts and if you want to completely rekt vsbrs,WoL and psychoframe

>>14194559

Probably quite a beefy one, considering that in the first two episodes of Frontier alone the Vajra soldier dude you have in your pic tanked quite a bit of damage, including salvos from actual tanks, a full barrage of missiles and all the fire from a gunpod. It took a precision strike using a melee weapon to take him down. They only got stronger as the series went on, adapting to things like reaction (re: anti-matter) weaponry and Brera expected them to adapt to MDE (re: micro black hole) weaponry if given long enough thanks to their biological conversion armor.

Also, given that they keep up with VF-25s, they probably move a lot faster than most Gundam units.

>>14194635

Macross melee weapons use pin-point barrier coating, so they're hardly shit. They're at least as effective as minovsky beam weaponry, and considering they coat their weapons in particles from a sub-universe, possibly better.

The only way to beat the Vajra is with UNDERSTANDING.

>>14194559
As tough as G-self with Perfect Pack

>>14194886

Considering it got wrecked by a mining machine, that doesn't seem very tough.

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>>14194892
>mining machine
When? I don't remember that or do you mean the Recten?
If so then
>Aida

Anyways anon is right PPG-self and it's photon torpedoes would be a good match for the vajra, that is if the vajra can even adapt to something like that, although there's a possibility. Now imagine what the V2 would do to them, if we are to believe what Tomino says.

The problem is you don't fight A Vajra. They aren't like the Protodeviln where the whole species only consists of like 7 members. If there's one, a lot more are coming.

>>14194936
For the purposes of this discussion, it's just one vajra, acting autonomously.

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>>14195049
>it's just one vajra, acting autonomously.
Fucking protoculture man, they do things to you.

>>14195049
>Vajra
>autonomously
They are a hivemind, anon.

>>14194928
>That image
female bellri gets my rocks off.

>>14194928
>mining machine
>When?
He's referencing that Mask beat it with the Kabakali, which is basically a captain's special custom unit, but he confused it with the Dahack, which is a repurposed mining MS.

>>14194928

I man the Kabakali and the Vajra already adapted to anti-matter weaponry in the show, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't in the case of the photos missiles. Also Tomino hasn't said squat about the V2.

>>14195288
It's a commander version of the RE-GIT

Probably something slightly above the average at first, a few shots with the beam rifle perhaps.

Then they becomes immune to beam rifles of that level and need better weapons to even hurt them, and this will probably be the part that UC will probably start having trouble with, since they have to keep up with the Vajra's evolutions.

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Gundam Exia eliminating target

>>14195321
And the Vajra use swarming tactic.

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>>14195330
Only if he attacks the joints.

>>14195372
>sword draw straight out of samurai theater
>it's a tiny knife and pinpoint barrier doesn't even make it grow

>>14195260
This is a very special Vajra capable of independent thought.

(I mean, yeah, if ALL THE VAJRA show up the UC is fucked. Even the Turns would get their shit kicked in.)

>>14195432
So, one of the Semi-Queens, or Queen itself?
Seriously though, each Vajra is controlled by the hivemind.
When you are fighting any number of Vajra, all of them are controlled by the same hivemind, so your hypothetical situation could work, its just very unlikely.

Also, I assume we're working on the assumption that they are fighting the regular red heavy soldier types, since the ship-type ones are basically huge ass Vajra grown for the purpose of a warship.

>>14195465
A heavy soldier type like in the OP that's acting independently of the normal Vajra hierarchy for REASONS because otherwise the hypothetical becomes "what kind of Gundam would you need to fight off an entire Vajra hive" and the answer to that question is "you don't, everyone's fucked, game over."

>>14194746
/thread

>>14194570
>post Zeon
>Zeta

He's talking UC100 and later. Not post 0083, post F90.

>>14195446
>>14195547
Could ELS 00 Quanta do it? That's more a discussion of "could the ELS beat the Vajra", mind, but still.

OH BOY

MACROSS WANK

Let me get my popcorn.

>>14196027 kek

>>14194632

Base Newtypism is just increased spatial awareness, isn't it? Only some newtypes get the empathy, death sensing, psychic mind breaks, and healing powers.

>>14195372
Well, we have no idea how GN Swords or beam sabers work against the Vajra armor... those blades may slice through them like a hot knife through butter.

>>14196075
They'll work until they don't, like every other weapon technology.

>>14196103

A good few technologies like regular guns and missiles never worked on them to be fair. SMS had to use reaction warheads to kill them using missiles and MDE guns to kill them with guns - though Michael was able to kill lesser ones with his beam sniper rifle at least.

>>14195465
Alto only fought one vajra in the first episode

A GM could do it with a beam saber
An acguy could probably beat it up

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>>14196641
A GM maybe but what could an Acguy possibly do to it?

>>14196659
You have to remember in gundam everything is bigger
If an acguy started grappling with the manlet insect it would win

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>>14196661
>manlet
The Acguy is 19 meters tall and the VF-25, which the adult Vajra towers over typically, is 15 meters tall. Putting the adult vajra at least 19-20 meters tall. And that's not even accounting for the larger variants.

>>14196673
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vajra-heavysoldier.htm
It's 30 meters tall upright. Guess that makes the Acguy the manlet.

>>14196673
>>14196674
The acguy can extend his arms

>>14196611
Because it was the only one that broke through the lines.

The rest were outside.

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>>14196677
The vajra has 4 arms.

>>14196661

You have to remember, in Gundam every weapon is better and minovsky magic means they can do anything. Never mind that Vajra have a thrust to weight ratio of at least 35:1 while nothing in Gundam appears to top 12:1 (Wing Zero Custom), never mind that Vajra can withstand at least 30Gs while even the V2 appears to top out with 20Gs and never mind that Vajra have shown immunity to missiles and normal gunfire from the off, it's Gundam so even a basic punch from a Zakus will do it. Cause it's Gundam. And that's enough.

>>14194559
Any gundam except the barbatos

>>14194559

If its an early show Vajra, you still have a chance. At that point all you are dealing with is something that has armor equivalent to a Gundam, but 6x time the speed of any mobile suit ever made and a weapon that can one shot battleships from extreme range, whose natural senses ignore minovsky interference.

Its basically the mobile armor that zeon wishes it could make. It would chew through any UC fleet with ease, requiring concentrated beam spam and a lucky shot to actually bring down.
Late show Vajra... Gundam is fucked. and I mean full on, no holds barred fucked. Vajra eventually develop an armor coating that lets them survive direct hits from nukes.

Beam weapons are just a little bit of nuclear energy as a blast, much much weaker than a direct atom bomb. Beam weapons are also the strongest weapons in Gundam.

A late show Vajra would tank beam weapons without harm for quite a while before its blast armor was expended. If you wanted to render it vulnerable quickly, you would first have to hit it with something like a hyper mega particle cannon dead-on. It would SURVIVE that hit, but afterwards you would have a reasonable chance of killing it.

Meanwhile, the battleship carrying that hyper mega particle cannon? Still dies to one hit of the Vajra's backpack gun.

This is not a fight that Gundam is really prepared for.

>>14196784
What if we mass-produce the Big Zam?

>>14196784
>This is not a fight that Gundam is really prepared for.
It is a species that has organic FTL travel after all. Most Gundam universes don't even have FTL. We are talking about a species that swarms the vast expanse of Space, and make Xenomorphs like look like harmless puppies in comparison.

>>14196814
They're anime tyranids.

>>14196784
MOONLIGHT BUTTERFLY

>>14196827
Vajra are made of meat and exotic matter. MB only eats technology.

>>14196814
Isn't 00 Qan[T] capable of FTL travel too? Then it could travel into the hive if given the right coordinates and let them feel the UNDERSTANDING

>>14196843
The hive is wherever the queen is chilling out at that moment. Not sure if you could strike up a conversation without fold waves, though.

>>14196820

Arguably more powerful than nids, but less malevolent. The nids go around consuming worlds and galaxies. The vajra, by and large, are merely territorial space bugs. They have infested the core of the galaxy, but as long as you stay off their lawn they really don't heavy any reason to go after you.

Well, until you develop fold based FTL communications. But that is sort a weird quirk, where you start pinging the hive mind. The hive mind doesn't understand the concept of anything being 'outside' the hive mind, so the only context they have for the level of information you are putting out is a queen, but its all gibberish so its a queen in extreme distress.

In Frontier, the vajra thought we had kidnapped a queen and were torturing the shit out of it. Thats why they kept going berserk on us.

>>14196027
>Who would win in a fair fight between Superman and Batman?
>Superman, you retard.
>WOW SUPERMAN WANK! WHAT FAGGOTS!

>>14196847
>In Frontier, the vajra thought we had kidnapped a queen and were torturing the shit out of it. Thats why they kept going berserk on us.

I never thought about it that way, but that makes perfect sense. I thought they were just curious as to why Ranka was shooting fold waves out of her babymaker.

>>14196846

This. Vajra don't use their brains, so telepathy is shit for them.

They communicate via subspace ripples that parasites in their guts are sensitive to. Its a very specific kind of FTL communication which even Macross, which deals with this kind of subspace directly for decades, cannot replicate without a rare and very difficult to synthesize material called Fold Quartz. The best place to get it is, surprise surprise, Vajra guts.

The Quant doesn't have the phone it needs to call vajra-sama and talk.

>>14196856
Interpretive dance it is, then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7ijI-g4jHg

>>14196843
>Isn't 00 Qan[T] capable of FTL travel too? Then it could travel into the hive if given the right coordinates and let them feel the UNDERSTANDING
Well of course they could talk. But that has nothing to do with powerlevel discussions.

I am more interested in finding out what would happen if the ELS ended up making contact with the Vajra. They are completely different types of aliens and very weird things would happen if the ELS tried to assimilate them.

There might be some crazy fusion and we would end up with a symbiotic super-alien race, combining the best of organics and metallics.

>>14196871
Do you want borg? Because that's how you get borg.

>>14196854
>I thought they were just curious as to why Ranka was shooting fold waves out of her babymaker.
It's worse than that. Ranka's Aimo song was interpreted by the Vajra as a mating call. And when horny male Vajra warped across the galaxy to answer the booty call, they end up finding no females. That can make anyone pissed off.

>>14196784
I'm not sure that is how beam weapons work although I'm not certain
However Gundams have many weapons more powerful than beams
>beam sabers which would melt vajra with ease until they evolved some serious heat resistance
>actual nuclear beams like the dendrobium and solomon zaku have
>psychofields
>lasers
>photon torpedoes which the vakra cannot defend against

>>14196888
There's nothing to suggest the vajra couldn't find a way to counter photon weapons.

>>14196854
That's just how they interpret random fold waves.

When Ranka actually sings they understood it as a mating call, because it the shit in her guts gives off the correct fold wave for it and that's the primary reason Vajra hives communicate with other hives like that.


That's why they keep trying to abduct her. They thought she was a horny queen and all these ships kept getting in the way and blueballing them.

>>14196903
Did they ever counter MDE bombs?
I dont actually remember

>>14196784
>Beam weapons are just a little bit of nuclear energy as a blast, much much weaker than a direct atom bomb. Beam weapons are also the strongest weapons in Gundam.

No. Beam weapons come in a couple varieties. Beam sabers are just minvosky partiles heated into a plasma and contained in a shaped magnetic field.

When people think of beams however, they are usually thinking of mega particles. Megaparticles are minovsky particles charged until they undergo a conversion, which results in a super heated material called megaparticles which are hot enough to melt through most metals near instantly, and even fictional super metals like luna titanium don't hold up against it.

And beam weapons aren't nearly the strongest weapons in gundam. Nothing really as crazy as macross stuff though.

>>14196933
They were on their way. Same with the Lucifer's quantum decoherence thing.

>>14196948
Well regardless, the proton torpedo has the same effect as the MDE except without dumb cgi explosions

>>14196888
> I'm not sure that is how beam weapons work although I'm not certain

It is.

Minovsky particles are important because they inhibit fission on contact. This is what allows UC to make smaller and relatively safe nuclear reactors, like what power most mobilesuits. In the event of a crises, all they have to do is amp up the minvosky and the whole plant goes dark instantly, no meltdown.

Minvosky weapons siphon off nuclear plasma/energy from the reactor and then surround it in a minovsky 'shell' in order to focus and direct it. Each beam shot is like 1% of an atomic blast focused in a single direction, which is why Gundam was never able to really come up with a counter to it. Thats some pretty nasty firepower. Varient ammo storage systems like the Ecap may have more stable containment systems than directly siphoning from the reactor, but its still the same principal.

But that goes for all beam tech in gundam. Sabers, forks, funnels... all nuclear power in a containment bubble.

Against a Vajra that has developed blast armor to tank direct hits from full on nukes, all equally worthless.

As for the photon torpedos, I wouldn't be so sure that they can't defend against them. They would certainly be vulnerable to them at first, be we eventually saw the vajra learning how to defend against a weapon that literally destroys the fabric of spacetime itself, and all matter occupying that area of effect. After that 'its a BIG boom' is kind of kiddie stuff in comparison.

>>14196958
Is it proton or photon?

>>14196962

Depends which sub group you are watching, but my guess is proton. Because Photon Torpedo is Star Trek, and Proton Torpedo is the Star Wars imitation of that, and Gundam generally draws a lot from Star Wars.

Speaking of which, were we ever given any explanation for how the fuck the proton torpedo actually works? Because its pretty clearly not a torpedo, and protons don't explain the effect that we saw in any way.

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>>14197001
Sparkles appear
People die
Bellri laughs

>>14196961
That's not how beam tech in gundam works exactly, especially for beam sabers. Beam sabers are just contained hot plasma. And ecaps basically work by compressing minovsky particles and when the gun is fired, it super charges them into megaparticles causing them to expand under pressure and then release in a controlled direction. That's why ms have certain energy output requirements for beam rifles. If they can't provide enough electricty to the rifle for the conversion to megaparticles to take place.

>>14196961
Beam sabers function completely differently from beams
A beam saber is plasma contained within an I-field, this could be done in real life with a normal magnetic field

>>14197001
They have a crystal exterior and whatever is inside is perfectly destructive
The crystals are probably somehow made from the batteries

>>14196888

In episode 1 and 2, a Vajra stands in the middle of an explosion caused by a load of missiles without damage. It's okay for extreme heat more than likely, even that of a beam saber.

>>14196958

No, it doesn't. MDEs work on mini black holes, photon torpedoes work on anti-matter. Which the Vajra dud evolve to tank, because that's what reaction weaponry works on.

>>14197041

Also, variable Fighters have lasers.

>>14194746
Goddamn. Newtypes are the best way to deal with Vajra, then..

>>14197050
>Newtypes
>Understanding anything

Newtypes tend to go crazy and kill each other unless they're either full on ghosts or tragic star crossed lovers.

It's innovators in a gn cloud that have true UNDERSTANDING. Even non innovators are affected by it.

>>14197041
>a load of missiles
Woah
According to tomino himself a beam saber can cut any material

>>14197041
But anon if you payed attention ou would know that that isnt the case
Reaction weapons cause big explosions
Torpedoes make things dissappear

>>14197050

Newtypes wouldn't be any good, sadly. Vajra don't use their brains for much more than motor control. The hive mind works on an entirely different set of principals, for which you need a very specific branch of technology to interact with that Gundam doesn't have access to.

Frontier didn't even really end with UNDERSTANDING so much as it did 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' followed by the Vajra hivemind slapping is collective forehead and realizing 'holy shit, THEY NEVER HAD A QUEEN. This explains SO MUCH of the past few months.'

>>14197063
Any material in Gundam-verse? Or ANY material ever created in any work of fiction?

>>14197067
How about a newtype that also sings pretty well?

>>14197063

Armor materials in Gundam are pretty clearly lower end than what we see in Macross. There is NOTHING in Gundam than can take the level of damage we see a Vajra, the Protodevlin, or the Birdman survive. Tomino can make whatever claims within the context of Gundam he wants, but its childish to assume that applies to other franchises.

>>14197069
Unless they were infected by an alien sickness while in the womb and grew up with it in their pelvis then tough shit the Vajra can't even hear you, much less UNDERSTAND.

It would be like yelling English at a deaf man who speaks Japanese.

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>>14197063
>According to tomino himself a beam saber can cut any material
Apparently not since heat hawks block it just fine.
>Reaction weapons cause big explosions
>Torpedoes make things dissappear
This is what an MDE bomb did to a planet. It made half of it disappear.

>>14197080
I've always wondered if a planet will look like that if half of it suddenly disappeared. I'd imagine the edges of the giant "cliffs" would collapse inwards soon enough

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>>14197080
That was a full Dimension Eater, by the way.

There are MDE missiles(Replacing reaction missiles) for VFs and those have a smaller AoE.

>>14197069

You have to understand that, in Macross, the music itself is rarely what is actually important.

Minmay's music wasn't even that good, its just that the Zentradi had never been exposed to anything like it before so it was a massive culture shock.

Sharon Apple's music was legitimately special, but it was computer generated gibberish set to a beat designed to subsonically fuck with your brain chemistry.

Basara's song and lyrics were actually not important, what was important was that singing made him so hype that his brainwaves were toxic to Protodevlin psychic space vampires. The music itself was not what was important, that's why when the military tried to copy him with their 'Jamming Birds' plan it was a miserable failure.

And in Frontier, songs themselves are not what is important. The important bit is fold waves, a form of FTL communication. The Vajra hivemind communicates with fold waves, and both the main singers of Frontier have been infected with Vajra parasites that generate those fold waves (one on accident, one intentionally in order to try and replicate the effect of the previous). So, again, the music itself isn't the mechanism here. Its just something that is part of the show because Kawamori thinks its cool.

Unless you have some fold quartz or something else that can generate subspace fold waves, no one in Gundam has any real chance of communicating with the Vajra regardless of what they are or what they do.

>>14195465
As show later they aren't simply controlled by a hivemind, the queen is the administrator of the whole thing but each and every individual Vajra is a part of the hivemind, I think it was in the movies that showed some of the Vajra taking some of themselves that wer ehurt and trying to escape with them instead of just letting them die, I imagine each vajra us like a PC with each Sub-Queen acting as a Router to reach the main Queen who acts as a server

A single man machine could do it.

>>14196871
It would be insteresting since it would be two completely different Hiveminds, I tink they MIGHT be able to talk since being hiveminds they wouldn't just become overloaded with information like Setsuna was and would end up creating something truly terrifying though

>>14197108

I think what would need to happen would be that the ELS assimilate a Vajra. After that, the ELS has some fold quartz, and the line of communications is now open.

>>14196871
The ELS could probably use the Vajra they assimilate to communicate with the Vajra, assuming they don't kill the bacteria in their guts.

Though, the Vajra would probably evolve some kind of self-destruct mechanism to prevent further assimilation.

>>14194559
>assuming it hasn't adapted to UC weaponry yet?

This is the important part that a lot of the thread didn't seem to grasp. I guess reading comprehension is low today but it's /m/ so I really shouldn't be surprised.

Vajra are tough and take a lot of firepower to bring down - this is because they were already on the way of adapting towards immunity to normal weaponry. Or do all anons think here that vajra adaptation started only after the first episode and not before?

As soon as vajra face off against a new weapon they didn't encounter before, they get splattered. Only later they start to develop immunity to it and the situation gets hairy.

During their first encounter, almost any mobile suit equipped with beam weapons could probably one-shot a vajra. Now if the question was "who wins, the vajra swarm or UC/any other continuity Gundam setting" then that's no comparison, the vajra win easily. But it isn't. The question is - one Gundam vs one vajra, who wins.

>>14197096

I doubt it, most AU Gundams drastically outperform even the Gaia Gear Alpha.

>>14197108

The ELS are probably the only thing in Gundam that could match them. Over-match really, since Vajra tend to attack in relatively small packs and the ELS could probably absorb them as well as meeting their swarm head on and not really being affected by their weapons or having to worry about armor.

>>14197147
It would boil down to who lands the first hit with their beam rifle/cannon
The red heavy soldier type Vajra is a larger target, but it is also able to keep up with a VF-25 with its mobility and speed.

>>14197123
ELS would be dangerous to the Vajra but I don't know if they'd organize against it. I think ELS wouldn't stop until they could absorb the hive itself and obviously the Vajra would see the transformation as death rather than upgrade.

>>14197179
If it comes to the worst, a direct attack on the Queen, the Vajra would probably just keep folding away.

>>14197192
But if they absorb a grunt they might be able to access fold waves. Technically they are biological, even if they're just metal. Do you think that all of ELS would be able to start folding after a single assimilation?

>>14197147
>Vajra are tough and take a lot of firepower to bring down - this is because they were already on the way of adapting towards immunity to normal weaponry. Or do all anons think here that vajra adaptation started only after the first episode and not before?

So are you proposing that UC gets to fight the Vajra millions of years ago, before they ever encountered a Zentradi soldier? Because we don't even know what the Vajra would have looked like back then.

I'm fine with saying that the Vajra have not perfectly adapted to beam weapons yet, that's reasonable, But your goalpost moving requires an absolutely absurd amount of shifting the timeline.

>>14197213
Maybe if they are able to replicate whatever biological fold drive the Vajra uses.

It should be noted that individual Vajra units apparently do not have enough juice to do a long distance fold which means they hitch a ride on the ship type Vajras.

>>14197240
I'm almost positive they could since Qan[t] ELS made it back to Earth. If they could only replicate the fold drive without making it better, they probably can't fold reliably. I guess they'd have to wait until they absorbed a ship.

>>14197192
Speaking of the queen, she has multiple wave motion guns and an impenetrable shield thing.

>>14196849

Batman carries kryptonite, dumbass. He preps.

>>14197673
And Superman can shoot heat beams from a few kilometers away, or throw a small steel beam at super sonic speeds or drop a building on top of him or fly fast enough to start a hurricane or clap his hands hard enough to blast batman away with the shockwave.

The point is that the only way for a character to win against superman or the macross universe is by adding conditions made to completely depower and rob the oposition of a way to defend themselves

>>14197673
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkFzXkpjXmM

>>14195321
So something with a VSBR/Variable Strength Beam Rifle?

How about something with physical melee? I can understand adapting to different frequencies of energy, but you cant just "adapt" to defend against a strong kinetic force.

>>14197147
So could any mobile suit with a beam gun that can vary its frequency by small enough amounts conceivably just beast an unlimited amount of vajra if it had good enough of a pilot?

>>14198831
It'd have to be by large amounts. Because small scale beam weapons weren't working but battleship tier beam weapons still worked.

>>14198831

I doubt it, since the Vajra don't adopt to defend against particular frequencies or anything, but just against different types of damage/attacks. Their biological energy conversion armor wouldn't become immune to large but slow and low frequency minovsky beams - but against minovsky beams full stop.

Which is assuming minovsky beams even worked against them in the first place.

>>14198845

That's because small scale beam weapons worked differently from the battleship quality super dimesion/heavy quantum beams. The gunpod on Brera's VF-27 (and Alto's YF-29) worked on the same principle, which is why it worked against them.

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>>14198872
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CEPKvBZN2M
Yeah you're right. At 2:45 Luca even says the only reason Brera's beam weapon worked was because it was a heavy quantum beam.

>>14197226
I didn't move any goalposts. OP's question states Vajra aren't adapted to UC weapons yet, so that's the assumption we're going with.

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I am sure Nono can destroy anything in the Macross universe an infinite number of times.

>>14198897
She could but we're talking about Gundam here.

>>14198906
Gundams powerlevel are crap.

M1 Abrams can output almost the same power as the RX-78-2.

Gundams are too weak.

>>14198916

A 747 needs 90MW to take off. The Turn-A has a power plant rated at 27, 000 kWs. And that's about the strongest rated power plant. Gundam really low balls it's power ratings for some reason.

Also, didn't Nono struggle with one Space Monster and need to commit suicide to beat it in the end? I'd imagine a Vajra Queen at least could replicate that level of endurance, even if regular Vajra can't.

>>14198947
A Vajra Queen bigger than planet earth?

>>14196888
Nice trips

>>14198959

Was the space monster bigger than Earth? I'm honestly asking, because it's been years since I saw it and I'm just going off what half-memories remain. I certainly don't recall it being that big since I recall Nono and Lal'C attacking it and their units being visible against it's bulk. That could just be memory tricks though.

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>>14198916
Reminder that 3 Rick-Dom reactors can power a mountain vaporizing beam that can fire almost constantly.

Gundam tech is just super efficient

>>14199219
Didn't the Apsalus have a ship reactor hooked up to it as well?

>>14199228
Nope. The entire reason it has 3 rick-dom II reactors was specifically because one reactor wasn't enough.

>>14199228
Doesn't matter, it's really bullshit. But who expects coherency from a side-story OVA?

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>>14198057
Why is it that whever I see someone posting green lantern recently he's getting his shit kicked in?

>>14199219
>super efficient
>they can only really afford to build one of these
Meanwhile in Macross you have thousands of VFs flying around with anti-matter weapons and fucking black hole bombs.

>>14199258
It was because of that craptacular movie

>>14199265
Do people forget that Macross tech is reverse engineered from an incredibly futuristic space race? If you don't, why bother comparing? It might as well be magic.

>>14199289
Gundam has a magic particle that makes all forms of long distance communication and detection useless. That's pretty magic too.

>>14199332
It's all developed by humans, though. Macross leaps ahead literally light-years in technology but people still like to compare them. It just doesn't make sense.

>>14199265
>>they can only really afford to build one of these

It's only useful for blow up huge bases and it's a huge sitting duck. Also, how are you going to escort it across the world?

Ghinias designed it to one shot Jaburo but he was too late for it. So he decided to finish it and go out of a blaze of gay glory.

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>>14199258

Because Hal Jordan is a literal retard.

>>14199361
Actually he wanted to take it to Solomon to help the Zeon front in space. But obviously that never happened.

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>>14199371

>>14199349

Humans developed the variable fighter, anti-matter weaponry, energy conversion armor and dimension eater weapons with no help too though. They had most of those in Zero even without the SDF or Zentradi help/tech. Cyborgs, brain control, morphing wing geometry, Ex Gears and some other stuff too.

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>>14199377

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>>14199381

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>>14199387

>>14199380
The VF-0 is literally developed using tech from the Macross

>>14199409

Humans didn't even understand most of the tech they found on the SDF. They just slapped their own shit in there and hoped for the best. Which is why when they started it the actual engines took off on their own, they were shocked at fold technology and had no clue how to use pin-point barrier technology.

What they took from it for the VF-1 is mainly the reactor tech as far as I can see. Certainly there's no direct Protoculture or Zentradi analogue to variable fighters.

>>14198897
I wish Nono appeared in my bedroom after vanishing from Diebuster and I could headpat her while she sighs "Nonoriri" into my belly.

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>>14199387
>what to do with all of this WOOD

>>14197050
Newtypes are one of the most blood thirsty bastards in the universe. No way they will pacify the Vajras.

>>14199219
If its that easy to make something so powerful, why didn't they make more of it?
The main difference between Gundam and Macross isn't just their power levels, its also how they use their technology.
Gundam puts their best stuff into a handful of one-of-a-kind machines that can only be piloted by a handful of people.
In Macross, the best stuff is in MP machines that practically anyone that knows how to pilot those machines can use. Hell, their different machines for different roles sharing the same control scheme makes it even easier since you don't need to necessary know how to pilot the specific machine to pilot it, you can be a VF pilot and pilot a destroid with no problems, if you're a destroid pilot, you already know how to control a VF in battroid mode.

>>14199782
The fact that Macross humans have access to things like factory satellites really helps with the mass production side of things, too.

Load up a schematic, press a few buttons, and it starts cranking out mecha. I bet the Feddies would've loved to be able to do that with the Zeta.

>>14200512

Well it's not like cost isn't an issue, just less of one, so the Zeta still might not have gotten mass production because of it. UNG picked the YF-19 over the YF-21 partially because of the high cost of the second after all, and even the VF-22 Sturmvogel that was based off the YF-21 was only produced in limited numbers because of it's cost.

>>14200526
Wasn't it more because the YF-21 needed superhuman focus or it might try to kill your allies and the fact that the prototype was destroyed?

>>14200533

Those were probably the main factors, but it's cost played a part too and was the main deciding factor for the VF-22 Sturmvogel.

>>14199484

Pin Point barrier tech is actually a human invention. There isn't any indication that the protoculture ever had it.

Humans figured out how to make pinpoint barriers after studying the spacial anomaly that was left behind in the engineering section of the Macross after their fold engine went 'away'.

Its a bit weird that the protoculture apparently never made a similar discovery, but it could be as simple as the fact that the Vajra don't use barriers, and the Protoculture cribbed all their best notes from the Vajra. The protoculture wasn't actually that great at physics, just biology. The biology of the vajra gave them all of their favorite supertech.

>>14200533
The mind control system of the YF-21 being unstable was why they removed it from the VF-22, it was still an expensive fighter just over qualified to be a mainline general purpose fighter.

>>14200853
>The protoculture wasn't actually that great at physics, just biology.
That makes sense. It explains why they made the Zentradi to fight their wars instead of building androids. It is probably easier for them to make organic warriors than giant robots.

>>14200853
Goofy question, but have they ever indicated where those fold engines went? It'd be funny if they found them at some point.

>>14201137

Hikaru probably found them.

>>14201137

Apparently, it was found by the UN months after the incident at the island, where the island used to be. Basically, the fold engine sent the SDF-1 to Pluto, but it didn't send ITSELF to Pluto. So it just dropped into the ocean after.

It was supposedly used in the construction of the grand canon projects, and lost when the Zentradi bombed the shit out of Earth. But, at that point, we had plenty of other fold engines to pick and choose from.

None of this was mentioned in the show, so how canon it is... hard to say.

>>14196040
Don't forget "intuitive understanding of machines". I'm pretty sure that was thrown in there explicitly at some point, and explains why newtypes take to piloting unfamiliar mobile suits so quickly.

>>14196075
They're supposed to use a coating of GN particles to create an impossibly sharp cutting edge, like below a single molecule since it's the particles themselves doing the cutting.

It might not even be possible for the vajra to evolve a defense against it, since even the hardest armor would be vulnerable to being split apart at the molecular level.

>>14201422
Somewhat similar to PPB enhanced knives, I guess.
The Vajra will probably use some energy based protection against that, or if they are able miniaturize whatever that allows the Queen to utilize Dimensional Faults as a shield.

Or they evolve to negate the entirety of GN weapons.
Or maybe hyper regeneration to regenerate the cut parts.

>>14201422

Would they even have to, though? Vajra don't really have much incentive to close into melee in the first place, their sped and ranged firepower win them the fight just fine. If the Vajra decide they don't want to deal with your supersword, your mobilsuit will NEVER get close enough to them for that sword to matter.

>>14201422

If they can evolve a protection against anti-matter explosions, they can probably evolve one against molecular cutting. Does it make sense? Nope. It's still happening though, because that's how the show says they work.

>>14201465
Considering that they are a species that can do dimensional shit like folding or using dimensional faults as a barrier, I think evolving molecular cutting is plausible.

>>14194559

Nether Gundam could take it!

>>14199782
It's funny how a lot of fanfictions and SRW like to portray valks as being rare and extremely difficult to use, so they instead resort to OYW mechs and Strike Daggers/Natural OS instead.

>those fanfictions where Crossbone Vanguard MS curbstomp Valks by the dozens

>>14201552

A valk actually probably is more difficult to use than a mobilesuit. Mobilsuits, we are given to understand, rely heavy on macros and pre-programmed movement and attack patterns.

Valks operate more on 'fly by the seat of your pants' piloting skill and reaction time. A MS pilot that doesn't know what they are doing will just sort of stand there, or maybe fall over. But a valk pilot that doesn't know what they are doing is almost certainly going to crash and get themselves killed even if no one is shooting at them. Its a faster, more complex machine.

>>14201581

That exact thing nearly happened in Delta when Hayate was training with the VF-1's and on his final exam.

>>14201660
Sheryl tried flying a VF-25 at one point during Frontier TV and I think she crashed within 30 seconds.

>>14194563
why a newtype?

>>14201699
She was shot down, she didn't crash.
It was the battle with the huge Vajra fleet after they went to Gallia IV to appease the Zentradi there.
Michel got knocked out and she was in the backseat, so she flew it. Her flying was fine, iirc, just very shaky.

Hayate, despite having no flight experience, popped it in fighter and flew in a straight line without any problems. In his training, he was most probably pulling on the stick too hard which led to the constant spinning and stalling.
It also helps that experience and skills from piloting other stuff carries over to piloting a VF thanks to them having the same control scheme in the respective modes.

I'll say VFs are fairly easy to pilot, especially if you have experience with other stuff, just hard to survive and be an ace on it.
On the other hand, does one's proficiency in anything non-MS carry over piloting a MS?

>>14203274
You mean the computer flew in a straight line.

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>>14203317
Yeah, the computer assist is pretty helpful, besides, its a fighter, our fighter are pretty much flown by computers as well.

No idea how to fly it and you accidentally popped it into fighter mode? Well, if you're not pointing at the ground you are mostly fine because the computer makes sure you'll fly straight.

>>14203274

> On the other hand, does one's proficiency in anything non-MS carry over piloting a MS?

Mini mobile suits, mobile workers, mobile pods, worker pods and computer games (at least according to AGE and maybe Victory). Though the games are probably simulations in both cases.

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A few warning shots from the G-Self will do it.

Was on-board flight assist AI a thing before Delta?

>>14206234
We had the automatic mode in Frontier so I guess they should have some AI

>>14194559
Wait aren't mobile suits fuckhuge while valkyries are jet-sized? Couldn't a gundam just kill it by running into it with all that mass?

>>14206782
Not really.
A MS is height is around a fighter jet's length.
Height wise, a VF in battroid is only slightly shorter.

>>14206782
>>14206853
That said, the Vajra is still larger than a MS.
Heavy soldier type is 30m.

>>14206782

Mobile suits have greater mass than VFs, yes. Assuming you can catch up to one at sufficient speeds, ramming into it would damage it more than it damages the MS. Probably. I won't pretend to know exactly what happens to the interior, pilot and all, if you throw two tincans filled with sensitive electronics at each other.

Assuming that an MS can actually catch up to one. Assuming that the VF getting rammed is an earlier model, too, since the later ones probably have ECA comparable to the physical no-sell that is SEED's Phase Shift.

However, any pretense of a size difference is a visual myth propagated by Gundam in general where their combat jets are woefully undersized even compared to actual fighter jets. VFs have only been getting longer and wider since the VF-1 and now most are as long as a typical mobile suit is tall. in Battroid they now range somewhere around the height of late-UC-sized MS.

>>14202928
Vajra are fast. So you need a new type to see beyond time. in order to shoot where it will be.

>>14206885
Source on the size of the Vajra? I'm somewhat curious.

I'd say you'd need something on the level of Zeta Gundam to take one down. Or one of the Supers from G Gundam.

>>14206853
Valkyries: around 30,000 lb
Mobile suits: around 88,000 lb
Mobile suits are also about 6 meters taller. I wouldn't necessarily call that a small difference.

>>14207040
Depends on the Mobile Suit and Valkyrie. Most Valkyries are between 15-16 meters, while MS are around 17-25 meters. Weight seems about right though.

>>14207040
>6 meters
For the VF-1, yes.
The VF-1 is the smallest, every other VF is bigger than it, even the VF-0 is bigger.

The VF-25 is 15 meters, iirc.

>>14207091
I'm pretty sure the VF-9 is smaller than the VF-1.

>>14206995
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vajra-heavysoldier.htm

>>14207093
>http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vajra-heavysoldier.htm
Ah, I see. Thank you for that. Was always wondering the exact dimensions of those things.

> Vajra communicate and sense via fold waves, which propagate through a different dimension and so are completely unaffected by Minovsky particles

Well, there goes Gundam's only real ace.

> Vajra Heavy Soldiers are also 30 meters tall, have four arms and can keep up with a VF-25 in speed (which have an empty thrust to weight ratio of 39.09:1)

Yea, they're screwed. There's nothing in Gundam with that kind of speed and they can't aim at range due to the Minovsky interference (or analogue) that many of them produce to compensate.

>>14207598

Pretty much. The Vajra is a pretty unfair matchup, though honestly most Macross villains are out of Gundam's league.

Even a Zentradi scout fleet has the firepower to blow out both sides of the OYW, and bomb Earth back into the stone age after. Gundam would at least probably get some kills this time around, but not enough to actually win the the war.

A single protodevlin would be a total lose scenario. Unless Newtypes are magically Anima Spiritia, the whole Earth could be wiped out/taken over by a single Protodevlin with nothing better to do with their time. And if they aren't anima spiritia, the Newtypes are the first to die because I bet their brainwaves are the tastiest.

The Ghost from plus unleashed on the Earth sphere... the screaming doesn't stop until it runs out of fuel. It has to run out of fuel eventually, right?

>>14207622
>It has to run out of fuel eventually, right?
I don't think they run out of "fuel" in atmospheric conditions.

>>14207622

The Ghost and the Zentradi fleet could still be vulnerable to Minovsky interference, though the Zentradi would probably just use fire saturation as compensation since they have so many fighters, ships, people and weapons. The Ghost's speed is also limited in atmosphere if I recall, so that might slow it down enough for someone to hit it. Sharon Apple was the real enemy anyways. I can't remember Plus well enough to comment on how a Gundam would fare against her.

>>14196659
how would vajra deal with ocean pressure?

>>14196833
wouldn't tekkaman be the same then?

>>14207648

They're a bio-mechanical species that live in space, so they probably don't breathe and would probably thus be okay under water given their lack of lungs and general hardiness against Gs. They can withstand at least 20 or 30 Gs by the looks of things, since 30 is the VF-25's upper limit if I recall.

>>14207641

Her actual AI casing is vulnerable enough to small-arms fire even if she gets to start out in a room with networked cables to strangle anyone that comes in.

Unless you're talking about Sharon-controlled rebuilt-SDF-01, in which case it could probably solo every single fighting unit, whether mass-produced, false-flagged, prototype, or throwaway propaganda, in the OYW, all at once, probably easily.

>>14196661
>>14196673
>>14196677
>>14196688

maximum kek

>>14206899
>However, any pretense of a size difference is a visual myth propagated by Gundam in general where their combat jets are woefully undersized even compared to actual fighter jets.
Yep. Real life fighter jet ARE Gundam-sized in scale. The Gundam universe deliberately make all thier own jets tiny just to make Gundams look good, no other reason.

vajra are extremely adaptable, biologically, so it's evolution, and what ever is most suited to the current conditions
they would have to reproduce in huge mass, which they do, and have a high mutation rate, and many with unsuitable traits
evolving a beneficial trait could also add in additional traits that could lead its own species to ruin, as well as to the point where the vajra species splits off to many other branches, and possibly oppossing itself as it would likely be the biggest competion for resources and such

also regardless of how impenetrable their exoshells become, there are many elemental and chemicals that can react to their chitin, considering their own biology can produce it in the same way

>>14207699

> and have a high mutation rate, and many with unsuitable traits evolving a beneficial trait could also add in additional traits that could lead its own species to ruin

That might logically be true in real life, but the Vajra are hundreds of thousands of years old (they were an old species by the time the Protoculture encountered them - and they lived 500, 000 years ago) and live in multiple galaxies - so it's untrue of them in as they're portrayed in the actual show. As, almost certainly, is the idea they're vulnerable to chemical or elemental attack given how their biological conversion armor works. Not that Gundam is likely to try that anyway, given how long it took the franchise to work out a way around Minovsky interference.

>>14207699
>and have a high mutation rate, and many with unsuitable traits
Their evolution is implied to be "designed" in a way, iirc.
Brera mentioned that information on the damage to each unit is sent into the network and used to evolve an immunity to the weapons.

>>14207752

Don't forget the Vajra that "evolved" in an obvious mimicry of battleships, including turrets.

They may be organic, but don't expect them to follow the conventional rules of evolution. The hive mind has a pretty direct hand in how the Vajra grow and develop, with results that require an understanding of research and development, albeit with a very alien mindset.

>>14195330
Drones, sure.
>>14195049
So, one virus or one drone? Or one Queen, as they can be only one considered not to be part of the hive mind, as they act as control node for whole network and all vajra shown in frontier fighting are pretty much her arms and legs?
>>14195945
Yes. Or Moonlight butterfly, or any other ms that can dish enough energy to vaporize most of the hive and manages to hit a Queen.
>>14196027
Not really. UC is a setting without aliens at all and tech level shown even post UC 100 is around beginning of SDF.
00 is only series that can be compared with Macross and in it there are many suits that can keep up with Frontier level machines and by extension, Vajra. ELS Quanta, by extrapolation, would decimate a hive before it can adapt enough. Or UNDERSTANDING.
>>14196185
It is shown that enough energy transfer WILL go through Vajra drone. Ozma's kill in first episode for example. And then they upgraded to energy conversion armor and only dimensional weaponry worked up until end of series and movies.

>>14196827
Maybe.
ONCE.
>>14196874

>>14208118

> Or Moonlight butterfly

The Moonlight Butterfly is one of the few things that explicitly can't kill them, since while the Vajra are bio-mechanical in nature, that still includes bio and the Moonlight Butterfly doesn't target organics.

> there are many suits in 00 that can keep up with Fronteir level machines

I don't think they have the same acceleration at the very least. It's hard to tell though really from animation and there are no stats past the Flags (which are minimal, and only list G tolerance) to fall back on. If they can, they're offiicially the fastest suits in the franchise, and by a wide margin since the V2 and Wing uints certainly can't going off their stats and the animations. The only niggle being that bit with Une piloting the Wing from a base in to space in minutes at most, which is insane speed if held to be true and surely has some bit of compression going on, since even the Wing Zero, Tallgeese III etc. never display such speed.

> then they upgaded to energy conversion armor

The Vajra always had biological energy conversion armor, they just upgraded it to account for things like reaction weaponry, not upgraded to have it.

>>14208155
>I don't think they have the same acceleration at the very least.
My mistake. 00 suits seems to be able to keep up with pre ISC valks. Both universes are using machines that are capable of massive delta v which translates to intolerable G forces for pilots, so in pure dogfight it would all boiled down to who can withstand them better. That is, in space obviously, as any atmospheric fight would be macross win pretty much by default.
>>14208155
Ergo 'maybe'. I also doubt it would work on them but IF it worked, it wouldn't be very effective unless it's field enveloped Queen in first try.

>The Vajra always had biological energy conversion armor, they just upgraded it to account for things like reaction weaponry, not upgraded to have it.
Again, my mistake. They upgraded it during series and then did shedding trick to overcome MDE effects, yes?

>>14198947
A space monster that had survived being trapped in a black hole for 11,990 years and had grown stronger that entire time. And literally broke physics by breaking out of the black hole and then controlling it somehow.

Gunbuster fought massive swarms of Space Monsters but it never fought a single Space Monster that was that absurd, that we saw on screen anyways.

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>>14194635
>Macross melee weapons are shit

Suuure.

>>14208196

I don't think they overcome the MDE's at any point during the show, do they? The only reason I know about the biological conversion armor at all is after reading up a bit on all the lore and terms a few weeks back out of curiosity when I clicked on a site that had it during a search for something else. I don't think the anime goes in to it at all, but it's been years since I've seen it, so I could be wrong.

>>14208219
I think it was during last two episodes, as Frontier fleet fired a barrage of MDE warheads only to find out that particular model just stopped working.

>>14206899
>Mobile suits have greater mass than VFs, yes. Assuming you can catch up to one at sufficient speeds, ramming into it would damage it more than it damages the MS. Probably
It would end with the MS either being cut in half if it runs into the fighter mode or just completely obliterated, the VFs all come with a barrier that they can coat themselves that warps space around them so that anything that comes in contact with them gets destroyed

Are there even any MS that can keep up with a Valk/Vajra? I think the fastest that MS have ever gotten in series is some late UC stuff, and I don't think even something like F91 or V2 is as fast AND as maneuverable as stuff in the Macross universe.

>>14208301
Late UCs, 00, Wing, Turn A are no brainers for pre-Frontier stuff. Even in Delta if they were to go against VF-17+/117, no problem. With introduction of anti-G forces ISC, pretty much only Quanta qualifies.

>>14208301
Probably S2 and movie 00 stuff. Otherwise generally not. Novel Turn X and Turn A might be able to since the Turn X is stated to be a MS designed for interstellar combat and the Turn A proved to be at least on par or superior to the Turn X in battle; it suggests they had some serious acceleration.

>>14197673
So does fucking Lex Luthor. And that helps him SO well.

>>14208301
What about the Colrel from X?

>>14208394

Not necessarily. Turn A can clearly put its pilot into stasis and regenerate them later, you don't have to get between star systems quickly if you can put the pilot to sleep during the voyage.

Not every space war is Star Wars.

>brings in mobile fighter G gundam for a new level of BS

>>14209311

Devil is the only one in the show that could do it, since it had tentacles that reached Earth from orbit in seconds, has huge size, regeneration and so on. The rest need help just to get to space and are slow enough they'd be overwhelmed if nothing else.

>>14208408
that thing is just a land combat MS, isn't it?

>>14208408
or a couple of hundred microwave cannons going off

>>14209333
or any pilot with enough "fighting spirit"

>>14209333
Depends on what the plot calls for. The God Gundam flew to the ring circling the Earth in a few seconds without any help.

>>14209376

Plenty of 'em had fighting spirit, skill and equipment count too. Fighting spirit won't let you cross space if your unit isn't designed for it. And most of the units in G aren't.

>>14209380

I wonder was the rocket usage to conserve propellant or something?

>>14208417
What is the point of building a weapon that by the time it reaches your enemy, his entire civilization might not be there anymore and neither will you?

>>14209415
so gunbuster all over again?

>>14208222
As far as I remember they haven't evolved an immunity to MDE by the end, if they were immune to MDE before the final battle, they stood no chance of even killing the Vajra.

>>14196933
they do counter them

>>14209376
>courage and guts
needs moar

>>14210289
They didn't develop an immunity to MDE but the Vajra Queen was able to create a Fold Fault that prevented anything from penetrating (other than other Vajra).

>>14208218
What are they supposed to be? vibros or some shit?

>>14213091

Covered in pin point barrier energy i.e. subspace energy i.e. the energy from a sub dimension to our own.

>>14213106

Not exactly.

Pinpoint barriers are not just 'magic subspace energy'. They utilize a space distorting phenomenon first noticed in the ruins of the vanished Fold Engine of the SDF 1 to compress space in on itself and make it all convoluted. If shooting a bullet is drawing a line on a peice of paper, pinpoint barriers take that paper and crumble it up into a ball, and tel you to try drawing that line without unfolding the paper. It doesn't work, because there is too much of the paper that you can't actually see.reach anymore, and a straight line no longer really makes sense under those conditions.

This makes it a pretty amazing shield, since the condenses space has such clearly defined borders that it acts as if it were a physical object. And as demonstrated in Space War 1, that shield is nearly invulnerable, much stronger than even hypercarbon materials. If you hit a block of metal with a pinpoint barrier, the barrier physically cannot yield, so the metal has no choice but to take 100% of the kinetic energy on impact, the worst possible collision outcome for it under the circumstances.

Anti-armor knives coat the blade in a pinpoint barrier, but its not an energy field. This is not a magical "+1 Knife" from dungeons and dragons. Its a knife layered with folded up spacetime, turning it into the Juggernaut from X-Men.

>>14216324

Well that's a far better explanation than I could have given, thanks.

>>14209415

There is a pretty wide margin between 'zip there in 5 minutes, not even long enough for a nap' and 'it takes billions of years to cross the distance'.

If the trip takes even a 'mere' 5 years, for a weapons platform the size of a mobile suit putting the pilot into stasis is way more reasonable than forcing them to live inside of the cockpit and somehow pack enough food for the trip. Presuming they don't end up an insane, emanciated husk anyway from the lack of interaction or physical activity.

>>14208155
Turn-A's nanomachines can target organics, it can regrow the pilot so it could be made to target them too.

>>14208155
>The Moonlight Butterfly is one of the few things that explicitly can't kill them, since while the Vajra are bio-mechanical in nature, that still includes bio and the Moonlight Butterfly doesn't target organics.
It targeted a guy holding a sword. If it considers part of the Vajra to be mechanical weapons it'd target them.