Something that takes me out of enjoying most UC writing these

>>14184237
But you know, a lot of non-Japanese like Zeon too. So it's not just your racist implication. Face it, people like the underdog even if that underdog is hideously evil. Just look at how people view the American Civil War factions.

>>14184237
People who sympathize with Zeon don't sympathize with the Principality or their methods, they sympathize with the people and their cause.

Also the Titans are totally comparable with Zeon, that's the entire basis on which Zeta is founded on.

>>14184246
Those are just the people who like the Empire in Star Wars. i.e. People who actually symphatize with the Nazis, but can't openly say it because they're the Nazis, so they just become fans of fictional factions that look like Nazis but totally aren't.

>>14184246
They do, of course -- it's still more cult-like popular with the people of Japan. People view American Civil War factions because yeah, people are retarded about their own country's bullshit and are historical revisionists. It's not unique to Japan, but in this situation the context of Japan's glorifying of a certain era is directly relevant.

>>14184247
It's still not comparable, and EF does not have the same obsessive apologia as Zeon does. EF is corrupt shit, we all know that, but no one sees that government as noble or as simply acting on their victimization only. Zeon's actions are not only inexcusable but completely disproportionate even to their mass space exile and lack of governmental autonomy. Chemical weapons on their own people along with colony drops and wiping out 1/3 of a population, with said goal to be removal of entire population from a land, would be justifiable to nuke by any sane standard.

>>14184237
I do think UC has lost a lot of its magic with the way it has revisioned the Zeon-Earth conflict. MSG and Zeta were just presenting the facts and had events unfold with the fans coming up with their own conclusions, as shoddily and shitty as it could be written. UC extensions past that have had very preachy exposition justifying Zeon or completely victimizing it as oppressed. Murdering was "empowering" to Zeon and a way for it to rise and stop being mean to it.

All gundam politix is stupid as fuck, UC having some of the worst. Wing being the most absolutely retarded, SEED coming after, 00 and IBO in a tie for trying to take on interesting concepts and failing with utter lack of knowledge in how any of these things are resolved. UC had fun ideas but eventually it turned into what side is more oppressed and what side can be more romanticized.

>>14184260
>but in this situation the context of Japan's glorifying of a certain era
But they aren't? Are you seriously trying to imply that Zeon has anything to do with imperial Japan?

>>14184237
Literally what zeon sympathizing
They ALWAYS lose, Zeon sucks dick

>>14184260
>Lol EF isn't as bad because of Zeon defenders

Look, don't try to argue that the Titans aren't as bad as Zeon, they're supposed to be. That's the whole point, they exist to be as bad as Zeon. Titans use chemical weapons/biological weapons on their own people. Through their brutality they created the Gryps conflict. Hell they even dropped a colony on the moon, which missed just like Operation British.

>said goal to be removal of entire population from a land
Maybe that was Gihren's goal, but Gihren headed the Principality of Zeon for a matter of hours. The Principality's goal was independence, at least under Degwin.

>Wiped out 1/3 of a population
EF gave as good as it got, both the EF and Zeon lost half of their respective populations. An absolutely ridiculous figure, but that's what we got.

>>14184274
No, not its inception. I am talking about fan projections on to Zeon and later writing for it.

>>14184255
No, you're missing the point.
The Zeon rank-and-file are consistently shown to be good people. It's only the Zabi regime that's actually twisted.

Feeling for the downtrodden people of Zeon is not the same thing as being a Nazi, that's just ignorant. I could see if you were comparing people who like Gihren to Nazis (even his own father did that), but most Zeon fans don't like the Zabis.

>>14184309
It isn't that the Titans aren't as bad, but that as a counter insurgency group turned evil, they were a direct response to zeon's actions. With the OYW I don't know how people can't pin more of the blame on Zeon when their demands weren't simple autonomy or independence, but went far beyond that both as Axis and Neo. EF&Titans were evil, Titans were fascist themselves crushing all dissent, imperialists, murderers, I just believe it's absurd to paint Zeon as sympathetic. I would feel the same if people victimized the EF in the same way, but they usually don't.

>>14184317
In Japan, Gihren is incredibly popular actually. 'Downtrodden' people of Zeon is a stupid concept since people of Earth also face oppressive conditions and corrupt shitty governments.

>>14184317
>The Nazi rank-and-file are consistently shown to be good people. It's only the Hitler regime that's actually twisted.

Schindler is proof that the Nazis did nothing wrong, only Hitler is to be blamed.

>>14184309
Federation's population is literally every human outside of Side 3. So yeah, Zeon dealt out a lot worse than it took.

In any case, irl Germany is pretty sympathetic too. It did the exact same shit as almost any other country during WWII, got crushed by the the Treaty of Versailles (France actually came out worst from WWI but Versailles over a long period would have fucked Germany pretty hard), and were desperate enough to listen to Hitler til the end of the war. Must've been shitty. Yeah, there are plenty who were waiting for a Hitler to lead the proud German people to victory and cleanse Europe and reestablish the HRE but the majority just wanted to be free of their past sins and rebuild.

I sympathize with Germany under Nazi control. Zeon is the same way.

>>14184317
How are the people who carry out the Zabi Regime's orders, get brainwashed by them, and go on to fulfill Char's fucked up but inspiring doctrine blameless? Both Feddies and Zeon people who support their governments were batshit.

>>14184311
>I am talking about fan projections on to Zeon and later writing for it.
Proof?

>>14184346
What the fuck, look at Gihren and Zabi popularity in Japan, nazi imagery idolizing there along with writing in everything from ZZ to Unicorn and Thunderbolt.

>>14184353
>look at Gihren and Zabi popularity in Japan, nazi imagery
That isn't Imperial Japan.
>along with writing in everything from ZZ to Unicorn and Thunderbolt.
That's an unsubstantiated statement. I asked for proof.
Stop getting flustered because your opinions were challenged.

>>14184342
I thought Zeon had at least two ally sides, or if not that, Zeon was a pretty large collection of colonies.

>Zeonic people are just whining us earthlings have it just as bad and we don't rebel.
You don't make it sound like the people aren't downtrodden, you just make the Earthnoids sound complacent.

>>14184379
That second part was meant for
>>14184328

>>14184309
Degwin was Gihrens puppet

>>14184379
There is a difference between not being complacent (hegemony is what we're thinking of here) and having the thought of independence meaning capturing some sort of "evolved glory" , galactic conquest, exacting revenge on another civ population, justifying genocide, and so on. Being downtrodden is no excuse,

>>14184353
I don't think ZZ and Unicorn and Thunderbolt try to say the principality/the Zabi's were great, they just keep making that same case for Zeonic independence. The point is that the spacenoids have a cause.

>>14184242
Has there ever been a rebuttal to this?

>>14184393
Talking about said cause seems to always be thrown with a billion disclaimers that roundabout use it as a justification for what occurred. The Zabis are not romanticized in the story, no, but even the goddamn colony drop is excused as "but because reasons!" Historians could justify just about anything as an act of resistance or assertion of agency and power, it doesn't make things sympathetic.

>>14184406
I wasn't claiming any of that, I'm just saying ZZ and Unicorn and Thunderbolt don't try to glorify the actions of the Principality, only the people and their cause.

>>14184391
That just sounds like war-craziness. I don't mean to belittle it, but it's not exactly unique to Zeon, anybody who perceives their cause as just would act the same. Being downtrodden is an excuse for war, provided there are enough like minded people. But i'm not saying it's an excuse for any act in war.

>>14184353
>and Thunderbolt.
TB barely has a story. It's Gundam the Ride : The Manga.

File: tt.png (1MB, 1433x809px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1433x809px

>>14184323
Titans are the Soviets/Warsaw Pact silly

>>14184309
>Gihren headed the Principality of Zeon for a matter of hours.

Oh, you're one of those idiots.

>>14184353
>>14184393

I get Unicorn and Thunderbolt (Unicorn is quite literally Zeon Historical Revisionism: the OVA) but ZZ? I don't see how you can say that ZZ is pro-Zeon when it has the most Saturday-morning cartoonishly evil portrayal of Zeon.

>>14184237
>Something that takes me out of enjoying most UC writing these days is just how much Zeon sympathizing there is. It's one thing to show both sides to the story, or show the circumstances that allowed Zeon to become such a horrendous fascist state being legitimate ... it's another to start completely apologizing for it and pretending like the EF's actions are even comparable afterward. More of Japan's weird projections. In the end, I'm starting to prefer the AUs because of this.

It's the free market man. UC Otakus go crazy on zeon wanfest, the producers are more than happy to oblige.
In any case Gundam 0079 is not a zeon apology.

I think people mix the Zeon philosophy and spacenoid freedom with the actual Principality of Zeon and subsequent Neo Zeon movements.
A lot of people sympathize with their cause because there are legitimate and relatable points in those, but the actual actions of most self procalimed Zeonist movements are indefensible.
However both Zeon apologists and haters don't seem to be able to separate those two things.

There are people that think Zeon is completely justified in their actions and was forced by feddie opression, sure, but I've never seen that as a majority in any UC discussion I've read. People like the independence ideals and the mumbo jumbo about evolving by leaving for space.

>>14184637
Even in Unicorn, Zeon was hilariously evil. The new-old Constitution only helped show that the spacenoids weren't fucking crazy when they said they wanted independence, but that was always the case.

The Federation has always been bloated, corrupt, and stagnant, but they're better than Zeon which wants to nuke/colony drop the shit out of everything. It's a matter of the lesser of two evils, and the corrupting power of ideologies.

>>14184309
>Implying Gihren wasn't the mastermind.

>>14184247
>Also the Titans are totally comparable with Zeon, that's the entire basis on which Zeta is founded on.
And then both the AEUG and Titans each try to ally themselves with Zeon, showing that all sides are fucked. Is there any UC faction that wasn't a shit?

>>14186646
I think it just goes to show that any faction can be corrupt and it's more up to the individuals than the sides they're on.

>>14186646
>Is there any UC faction that wasn't a shit?
Judau's perfect Newtype only colony ship.

>>14186671

It literally can't have been newtype only, since there wouldn't be more than a handful of people on it if it was.

>>14184242
Pretty accurate

>>14184379
Ok...history lesson time:
There were 7 Sides total, but Side 7 only had one colony cylinder (the one Amuro lived in) at the time the One Year War started.
But before the start of the war, there was a lot of talk about open rebellion against the EF. The only Sides that didn't want to stay in the EF were Side 6 and Side 3. Since Side 3 was on the opposite side of the moon from Earth, and had actually already been independent from the EF for years prior, the EF only really worried about Side 6 wanting to secede. The EF sent troops to reclaim Side 6 (this is only semi-official, btw, from a manga) and when Side 6 cried for help, Zeon sent in their military to liberate Side 6. While Side 6 was thankful for the rescue by Side 3 and did not want to be beholden to the EF anymore, they also did not want to participate in a war against the EF. So they became neutral, and neither Zeon nor the EF really pushed Side 6 to choose a side because whoever pushed would probably push them to the *other* side.
Then Gihren gave his famous "three second warning" before nuking/gassing Sides 1, 2, and 4 and suddenly the folks in Side 6 got *really* nervous about allying with Zeon and even more nervous about speaking out against Zeon. Meanwhile Side 7's single colony cylinder was just floating by itself going "WTF, MATE?"

After Zeon's first colony drop, Operation British, went off-target they tried for a second one (some sources say this was actually just a feint to lure the EFSF fleet into Side 5) and the ensuing Battle of Loum resulted in all of Side 5 being reduced to a cloud of irradiated debris and the inexplicably intact Texas Colony

So Zeon's allies are pretty much only Zeon themselves. They either terrified or exploded everyone else.

>>14184309
bk please put on your trip when you shitpost so that new /m/en will learn to avoid you

>>14187799
Don't actually tell him or he'll do it

>>14184242
>>14184398
>>14186929

There are several things wrong here, first the entire point of the space colonies was to lower the human strain on earth, they aren't dependent on Earth's resources (for subsistence anyway, mining the shit out of it to make weapons for the war is another story) that would defeat the entire purpose of them. Not only is the "Federation trade blockade that starved Zeon" often cited by Fedfags and Zeonfags alike never actually mentioned or confirmed to exist at all in any licensed Gundam works, just assumed to exist by fans because of muh WW2 parallels, it's something Zeon Deikun and his republic would have WANTED anyway since as the image states, they thought no one should live on Earth or be using its resources.

Not that this was their choice to begin with, just something that was embraced because it is shown several times in Gundam, particularly in Victory, that the Federation gets to pick and choose who gets to live on Earth (AKA the oft mentioned "elite of earth") and everyone else is considered an "illegal immigrant" even if they've lived on Earth their whole life. This is essentially the elite of the Federation kicking everyone else off Earth so they can have it to themselves as long as possible, not some great act of altruism or something.

The Zabis of course go against everything the Republic of Zeon stood for by aiming to selfishly replace the elite of Earth with themselves and do the same shit they did while hypocritically keeping the Zeon name, i.e. ruling over the Earth sphere and retaining Earth itself for a chosen elite. This is why alongside the Nazi analogies I think the Zabis represent Stalin and other Famous "traitors to the revolution" like Napoleon, since they took on the revolutionary name for PR, but basically acted no different from the fascists/royals they opposed. Really the only difference between the feds and Zabis is that the Feds already had power so they didn't have to start a war to get it.

>>14188148
tl;dr feddiewank/apologism is just as bad as zeonwank and misses the purpose of Gundam

File: 34358133_p0.jpg (88KB, 768x768px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 768x768px

>/m/ is suddenly filled with feddie moralfags
What the fuck happened?

>>14188148
also before anyone says WHAT ABOUT THE POOR PEOPLE ON EARTH? HUH, HUH? Yeah, they're probably not supposed to be there and the Federation certainly doesn't represent their interests considering Federation officials partied while Haman dropped a colony on Dublin and they were totally fine with it because she wouldn't take their positions away and dead micks means less people on Earth that aren't them.

>>14186974
Side 6 wasn't neutral until the antarctic treaty which established it as such, probably because they were the only side that wasn't side 7 or 3 that hadn't been gassed by Zeon or blown up in nuclear warfare between both sides yet and wanted to stay that way, this is definitely mentioned in official works so I don't know what dumb mango you're talking about.

Also Gihren wasn't really "in charge" of Zeon until after Garma dies.

>>14184473
The Titans basically a private army owned by a rich guy with nebulous motives (He's supposedly a secret Deikunist that wants to false-flag to get people to hate the Federation by doing bad shit in their name and then eventually using the Titans to overthrow them and look like heroes, kind of like Oz in Wing and move everybody into space or something, but this is never mentioned in Zeta itself) and not really beholden to the government at all outside of the most shallow of official standings, so that's not very Soviet of them. They're kind of like the Crossbone vanguard in F91, who were basically a rich mobile suit manufacturer's private army who bought himself a noble name to astroturf a new monarchy in space. I guess they're Tomino's take on the power of money and the rich being able to subvert the state. Once again, not very Soviet.

>>14188224
>Gihren wasn't really "in charge" of Zeon until after Garma dies
Actually Gihren wasn't "in charge" of Zeon until Degwin dies. He had a big hand in the war effort though (are you seriously questioning the Three Second Warning?).

I don't remember the name of the manga either. It's true that the Antarctic Treaty is where the Federation *recognized* Side 6 as a separate neutral entity, but it's not like they were happy patriotic Feddies right up until that moment.

File: soviet airforce roundel.gif (5KB, 216x216px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 216x216px

>>14184473
Well no shit Jamitov was Stalin.

File: Jamaican Daninghan.jpg (35KB, 742x794px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 742x794px

jamaican was a great guy really knew how to deal with these terrorist animals i tell you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Hama_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

>>14188160
So the purpose of gundam is that the golden mean fallacy is always true despite events having actual chronology/order?

>>14184237
Nazi's are pure evil. Everything they did was pure evil, from breathing to doing their laundry. Facism is the most evil thing in the world. Everything about it is wrong and even trying to see it in some other light is evil in itself.

Till the end of days everything even remotely related to the Nazi's or facism must be treated like the prime evil and you are not allowed to explore anything associated with it. Never ever dare think of facism or the Nazi's as anything but pure and utter evil!

>>14188533
Nazis and the Japs were complete utter lunatic barbarian savages.

Italian Fascism and the Duce had some good ideas though.

>>14188533
Yeah bro, cartoon villains and real life socioeconomic phenomenons are totally equivalent. Idiot.

>>14188283
>Actually Gihren wasn't "in charge" of Zeon until Degwin dies
Officially, but Garma's death is when Degwin starts to retreat into himself and re-think the whole war thing and Gihren steps forward and takes the reigns. That's what the speech is all about, it's a big propaganda coup and a symbolic transfer of leadership to himself.

>(are you seriously questioning the Three Second Warning?).
Where does it say Gihren personally gave the three second warning? I've only ever seen it as something "Zeon" did, not anybody in particular. Presumably Degwin was the one who gave the ok for it back then, but we'll never know for sure since most of the OYW that takes place before the original series is a huge blind spot.

>>14188393
It's not a "golden mean" fallacy because there are actual good guys in Gundam, just not the Federation government. If anything Gundam has anarchistic leanings and the people vying for political domination over Earth and sending people to their deaths to fight for it are always the bad guys whereas the good guys are regular people who are just fighting to survive or to live on their own terms. The one quasi-exception to this is Char, who has been so psychologically damaged by the powerful fighting over Earth that he basically takes it upon himself to make sure no one can ever have it by any means necessary, even if a lot of people have to die over it.

File: 1462060180440.jpg (233KB, 771x1361px)

233KB, 771x1361px

>>14184398
Done it before, but always willing to take it from the top to fine tune things.

Let's see, ignores the fact that the Earth Federation transferred a vast majority of the population into space (may have been forcefully if you use the 'illegal' settlements in Victory as a reference). That after Zeon declared independence the Federation retaliated with both economic sanctions and a massive military build up. History has shown time and again, in order to have true independence, you have to fight for it. (Britain didn't truly respect America's independence until after the War of 1812) In order to have any chance of victory against overwhelming odds, Zeon struck first by destroying the Federation allied Sides to keep the Federation from using them as rally points to attack Side 3 for their expected counter attack, and reduce the manpower/resources of the Federation's space forces. An attempt to end the war quickly by targeting Jaburo where the Federation's bombardment causes it to fly off course and hit the shitposter homeland of Australia. The second colony drop operation was a feint to draw out the remaining Federation fleets where Side 5 was destroyed in the crossfire when the Federation used it as a shield to cover their retreat. Then Zeon invades Earth because they need to keep the momentum going because if they just stayed in space. The Federation would regroup faster and just send up more forces to fight Zeon in a war of attrition. There was also the need of mining resources for the war effort that couldn't be obtained in space as easily.

So yeah, obviously things could have gone better. But I seriously hope you don't believe in Feddie Propaganda that is so lazy that they can't even bother to do a proper copy pasta.

>>14189234
>economic sanctions

Oh yes, the economic embargo that, from our very limited glimpses at life within Side 3 during the war, had absolutely no impact an anything.

You also covered that they were already independent, too, rendering their casus belli completely meaningless.

>1812

Ah, yes, the war brought about not because of a nebulous 'lack of respect', but because America was on the receiving end of trade restrictions owing to the Sixth Coalition fighting Napoleon and British support for American Indian raiders and because the USA wanted to annex Canada, among other things.

>Side 5 was destroyed in the crossfire when the Federation used it as a shield to cover their retreat.

Stop relying on non-canon manga and your faulty vision with regards to certain scenes in MS IGLOO to justify your Neo-Nazism.

Better yet fuck off entirely, please.

File: 1243981601035.jpg (83KB, 714x436px)

83KB, 714x436px

>>14184309
>EF gave as good as it got, both the EF and Zeon lost half of their respective populations.

i always saw this as an extremely odd statement by the show since it has never been stated where exactly all those Zeons were killed during the One Week War.

there were no major battles at Side 3 during the OYW at all and there isnt a single instance of the Federation shown destroying colonies or population centers; just a few nukes against space fleets during Operation British and Loum. was half of Zeon's population conscripted into the military? Zeon killing 3 billion people in a week by nuking and gassing colonies then dropping one made sense, but the idea that Zeon took any civilian casualties at all doesnt jive with any show or manga that ive seen.

File: 1353447214194.jpg (296KB, 1440x859px) Image search: [Google]

296KB, 1440x859px

>>14184309
>The Principality's goal was independence

its amazing that people actually believe this bullshit.

>Zeon soldiers, shown here celebrating their independence by invading a planet for resources.

Zeonism stopped being about independence the day Zeikum died, why havnt you people figured that out yet?

>>14189293
Don't you just love BURAKKU_NAITO's persistence in these threads?

File: snapshot_dvd_01.40.49_[2012.12.15_11.36.20].jpg (85KB, 720x480px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 720x480px

>>14184309
>EF gave as good as it got, both the EF and Zeon lost half of their respective populations. An absolutely ridiculous figure, but that's what we got.

That was from a mistranslated line that was later corrected. Side 3 was never attacked during the OYW and is outright stated to be the side least touched by the war.

File: Zeon_Cause.jpg (44KB, 720x480px)

44KB, 720x480px

>>14189316
>its amazing that people actually believe this bullshit.

Even the fucking narrator points out that it's bullshit. But some people need to deny reality to defend their favorite Space Nazis. Just look at the bundle of delusion that is Black_Knight.

>>14189293
Yes, because the look into what life was like at Side 3 which focused almost exclusively on the Zabis is a good way to decide what 20 years of economic sanctions would do to a country and how they'd survive them. Until you get a clear picture you cannot definitively say that the embargo didn't harm Side 3. Yes, ignore the overall factors of the British attempting to restrict U.S. trade and the Royal Navy capturing US trader ships and the impressment of American seamen. Clearly it's not because the British thought very little of the United States and believed they could do what they want with them. The Battle of Loum in MS IGLOO, clearly shows that the battle started away from the colonies, we didn't see how the battle ended, but we know Loum was destroyed in the battle itself. Meaning the only logical conclusion is the Feddies ran to the colonies to use them as shields and they were destroyed in the crossfire as the Zeon ships and mobile suits gave chase.

These are simple facts, you should stop getting so mad.

>>14189316
Look at the gains on those Zakus and Dom.

>>14190165
skipping legs day hits Doms the hardest.

>>14188162
Black Knight's actions have caused Zeon sympathy in this universe to rise to dangerous levels, so the quantum state is attempting to balance it out by turning Zeon supporters into Feddie supporters. The moderates are the first to go, so better radicalize to protect yourself. I recommend you start by gassing complete strangers on the streets.

>>14188162
It wouldn't be fun to be a Feddie if there weren't any Zeeks around. Keep going strong, friends, you build some sick MS and I'd be glad to see you all on the battlefield.

>>14190165
>you can't say it DIDN'T happen so it must have been absolutely crippling and worth 1/2 of humanity and also tons of misguided rebellions later
okay
>the famous BK Loum fairytale
okay
>facts
>from non-canon material
okay

>>14184309
>>14189302

Again, it isn't "half of each sides' respective populations", it's half of humanity that got killed early in the war. Forgetting where in Mechatalk this was said, but refer to this:

"It has already been a half-century since humanity migrated its excessive population to space. Hundreds of giant space colonies float around the Earth, and people have turned their cyclindrical walls into artificial land. Here, in humanity's second home, people were born, and raised... and died.

Universal Century 0079. Side 3, the space city furthest from Earth, began a war of independence against the Earth Federation government under the name of the Principality of Zeon. In roughly one month of fighting, the Principality of Zeon and Federation Forces caused the deaths of half the total population. People were horrified by their own actions.

The war became a stalemate. Eight months have passed."

Source: http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive.html