Would Zeon have won the war if Char DIDN'T betray the Zabis

>>13962734
Probably.

White Base and the Gundam were key players in some important battles.

>>13962734
>betray
Anon, Char has never once betrayed anyone in his life.

>>13962763

Quattro, please...

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>>13962734
>betray

>>13962734
No. Zeon's economy was weakened, so nothing would help them exept for blowing up Jaburo and keeping Odessa.

>>13962856
Ironically, if the Black Tri-Stars had failed to capture Revill at Loum, Zeon would have won in January. The only reason the Antarctic Treaty became a treaty and not the EF's surrender was because of Revill's "No soldiers left in Zeon" speech.

>>13962876
>if the Black Tri-Stars had failed to capture Revill at Loum
Then there would be no Antarctic Treaty at all.
Revill should have been killed or kept under super-heavy watch.

>>13962881
No, the fleet was wiped out at Loum. Revill surviving that would have made no difference. It was only the fact that he got a behind-the-scenes look at the condition of the Zeon forces that made him plead for the EF to fight the prolonged war instead of surrendering.

Zabi infighting would fuck up Zeon anyways.

>>13963308
If Garma didn't die (even better: scored an important victory taking out the Fed MS prototypes), would Degwin have gone peaceful? If not, Gihren may not have killed him.

>>13963326
Ironically, Garma was the best hope the Zabi dynasty had for a brighter future. Assuming Gihren doesn't lead him by the nose or have him killed, Zeon under Garma would have been something to see.

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>>13962734
there is no reason to question the space jesus, char ziz-zaznable, or his judgement...

>also the zabis fucking suck
>fuck you kcyilia

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>>13962734
Wouldn't that just mean Gihren never delivered his funeral speech that somehow magically reached the entire Earth sphere despite muhnovsky, meaning Zeon wouldn't have as much asspain to fuel their fire?

>>13962734
It would still have lost. Even if they had killed the whitebase the tides were turning anyway

At best it would have lead to a different settlement that may have been slightly more favourable but at the same time Garma was in no way fit to lead a nation. Kycilia probably could have, though general infighting would have broken out anyway

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>>13964068
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu0BpXIXKDA

>>13964068
Garma lacked any sort of actual political awareness.Poor kid was a sheep among wolves.
He just wanted to be a good son and impress his nee-san.
At least that's my impression.Prove me wrong.

>>13964124
If Char had thrown his grudge away and helped Garma reign, Zeon could have been something great. They both have their own flaws, but together they cancel out.

It's part of the tragedy of the whole thing.

>>13962734
>Would Zeon have won the war if Char DIDN'T betray the Zabis and murder Garma?
Garma and Char would have destroyed Whitebase and Gundam with it.

>Odessa
WB originally played a minimal role in the main battle, so not much is changed, but Amuro no longer destroys the nuclear warhead. M'Quve steals a victory from the jaws of defeat.

>Jaburo
GM production is set back so they can't stop the Zeon incursion, BUT Char and the Mad Angler Sqadron don't follow WB to the base, so it's location remains a mystery to Zeon.

>Star One
I'd guess it doesn't happen after a feddie loss at Odessa. Actually I'd say the reverse happens: Instead of the Feds being free to attack space (Zeon's Earthside presence being marginalized after Odessa), rather the Zeon space forces would launch a second invasion of Earth (probably from Granada since M'Quve was Kycillia faction) to mop up the post-odessa-loss Feds. Probably results in an assault on a GM-less Jaburo (possibly centered around Newtype piloted Mobile Armors).

I'd call the OYW a Zeon Victory.

>>13964215
Post-war Zeon would be interesting, what with the Zabis all alive.

Char would have remained in Dozle's command, so he probably wouldn't have much interaction with Lalah Sune, and thus not explore his own potential as a Newtype.

Gihren (who'll claim credit for the entire victory) and Kycillia (who actually pulled it off) would probably be political rivals. Hard to say who's camp Garma would be in, but I'd guess Kycillia since (a) he was so concerned with impressing her, and (b) they would have worked together on Earth, he having commanded the Earth Occupation Forces, and her having commanded the Second Invasion Fleet.

Dozle would swear off politics and concentrate on being Father-of-ALL-Years for Mineva. Banagher Links would be shot.

Degwin would probably have retired. Maybe occasionally campaigning for the Kycillia/Garma faction.

>>13964194
Nah, Zeon being part of the movement at all royally fucks things up.

>>13963326
Gihren's Greed explores this scenario, including what it would take for it to happen and the repercussions of it.

In the game, Garma's stats start off fairly low, but increase considerably with some experience. He actually becomes a very good MS pilot (better than all of the Federation aces who aren't Burning, Yazan, or Newtypes) and excellent leader once leveled.

The way you ensure Garma survives is by keeping Char away from him. After Char discovers the Operation V mobile suits at Side 7 and engages them for the first time, he requests that you resupply him.

Resupplying him leads to the atmospheric reentry battle and him ending up in America, which causes Garma's death like in the show.

Not resupplying him leads to Char giving you the middle finger and going after the Gundam with what he has left, and leads to him being shot down but not killed. You lose reputation points as well. Afterwards, Garma leads the North America occupation force against the White Base as in the show and still loses, but he doesn't die because Char wasn't around to fuck him over.

Much later on, whether or not Garma is alive or not can make a huge difference on how the endgame turns out. If he's alive and you, as Gihren, have a low reputation, he will split off from the main Zeon faction and take Dozle and some of your best aces (like Ramba Ral) with him. Also, in some versions, Degwin will not initiate negotiations with the EFSF is Garma is alive.

That being said, there are some reasons to let events play out as they do in the show. There is the fact that Garma being alive is a hazard if you are playing a low reputation Zeon as mentioned above. There is also the fact that winning quickly as Zeon requires you to initiate the plan to infiltrate Jaburo with aquatic MS, and this is only possible if Char followed the White Base to Earth and killed Garma.

All in all, it's a pretty interesting what-if.

>>13964194
Char would never willingly submit to anyone else and never not despise stupid people. Garma was too naive.
On the other hand an actual working Char and Kycilia alliance would have been fun to see.She
was smarter than him and knew all of his tricks.
Except for that last one, I guess.

I always liked the way Gundam vs Zeta gundam did it. In the what if battles Char and Garma work together threw the one year war kicking the shit out of everyone. then moving to the zeta era and kicking the shit out of everyone the entire zabi family basically follows garma to domination if I remeber right there was even a mission with dozle coming in with a big zam and you have to save him from amuro

>>13964090
>Talks about Char
>Posts pictures of Quattro
7.8/10 too much not baring any resemblance to the Red Comet.

>>13964106
Even had the White Base and the RX been destroyed, the Alex probably would have been deployed anyways. And without Amuro to kill, Char would have never deployed Lalah to fight and Newtypism would have been held back at least until the events of Zeta

>>13964215
>so it's location remains a mystery to Zeon
Didn't they use nuclear weapons and throw a colony in Jaburo (although the colony hit Sydney)? I thought the location was known to them, they just didn't want to risk a frontal assault.

>>13964329
Man I wish that game was in english

>>13965922
They knew the general location, but Jaburo's facilities are located hundreds of metres, possibly up to thousands of metres below ground. In the original movie trilogy (probably series as well, not sure) they say that Zeon conducts daily carpet bombing runs but it's extremely ineffective.

They didn't get a chance to use nuclear weapons, as those and colony drops were prohibited by the Antarctic treaty which was signed before Zeon landed troops on Earth.

>>13965922
No, they only knew the general location. (Which is akin to, we know the a base is in Brazil.)

>>13964215
>Odessa
The Trojan Horse played a major role since Amuro was able to kill the Black Tri Stars, expose the high ranking Zeon spy and neutralize the nuclear warhead. If the Trojan Horse and Amuro were killed before Operation Odessa occurred. You'd at one extra company of Zakus and Goufs protecting the front lines. While not a game changer it doesn't make things easier for the Feds. The big factors would be that the Black Tri Stars were still alive and considering their skill level, they could probably take out a an entire battalion between themselves. Now the Spy and Nuke are only in the TV timeline, but if you go by that, if the spy wasn't exposed. Operation Odessa would have failed either through the spy's sabotage or M'Quve nuking the main attack force and probably killing Reval. Of course the fallout yes that was intentional would have been huge depending on how ballsy the Federation was feeling.

>Jaburo
GMs would still be produced, but the fact that they wouldn't have the learning computer data would be a major factor meaning pilots couldn't use Amuro's data to carry them, and as a result, GMs would be even less effective. Either way Zeon would have to find the location of Jaburo from other sources, but sooner or later they would. Depending on the situation, it might have favored Zeon more because the invasion force Char slapped together was about half the size of the planned force for an actual attack on Jaburo.

>Star One
The Zeon fleets aren't as banged up by the Trojan Horse and if the attack on Solomon goes as planned, the Big Zam is able to inflict a lot more damage on the Federation fleet. There might be a chance that it survives the engagement depending on if Dozle acts prudently after the breaking the back of the Federation's forces since he did sink their flagship before Amuro got to him.

>>13964329
So Ramba Ral survives if Char doesn't group up with Garma?

>>13966639
>considering their skill level,
Also their Doms. Black Tri-Stars in Doms would have mopped the floor with any force the Feds could have mustered. It was only Amuro's Newtype bullshit that let him beat them.

>>13967152
Not him, but I know Ramba Ral can survive if you force M'Quve to give him the Doms he was saving for the Tri-Stars.

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>>13964124
>>Prove me wrong.
To be honest, he is probably the only good leader on the Zeon side, of all franchise.

Of all the Zabis in military positions, he is probably the only one really formed in an military academy, and even if we all know that the first place of his class was meant to Char, he probably would be the second or third place on the class, and in military academies this already something.
He cares and works hard to show that he really deserve his post and rank, instead of only have fun with his superior rank. He fight by the side of his soldiers, what score some points with his subordinates. He have a natural charisma and good oratory, it's important to leaders to know how to express and behave in public, and the novel implies he is very good at it.
He attend to that party, not only to eats the mayor's daughter pussy, but to try to do some Zeon good public relations with importants earth politicians and businessmen, what could help a lot a occupation forces, like the one he commands. And more importantly, he believes in the cause of the nation for what his figthing, and dont seem prone to betray anyone and to be an asshole for it.

Gihren is a asshole, the second coming of Hitler and worst.

Kycilia always depends on the verison that you take; in Origins she is a manipulative bitch, almost worst than Gihren, in the novels she tries to be manipulative but fails, and the animation she is show as being more nationalistic, but equally incompetent when matters.

Dozle have no political thinking at all.

Degwin probably betrayed his political pal, and done almost nothing when his space hitler son took the real power from his hands.

And Char is a fanatic, egomaniac manchildren that believes he should lead a new race of space magic people, based on his father studies, that are a mix of ecologism, religions and science.

Those are my arguments.

>>13967212
not only he survives, but he captures the white base

>>13971246
But what happens to Amuro and Sayla and Mirai?

Am I the only finds Garma delicious?

>>13972145
only one who

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>>13962734

No. If anything the war would have dragged on longer due to Degwin not being depressed into wanting to sign the peace treaty and assasinated by Gihren which led to him being killed by his sister and Zeon falling apart. They were still heading towards defeat though what with them running out of actual pilots, losing territory to the larger and now armed with ms Earth federation forces, and the war about to reach side 3 fully.

Really though Zeon's best shot is still to have Garma die and not kill Degwin. Him signing that truce would have allowed the principality to continue existing and could have opened the way towards further peace and other colonies going independent. But like every Zeon faction, a crazy power mad in a high position cocked it all up.

>>13971287
they escape I guess... the federation can still use them as pilots

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>>13972145
I have this in my image folder. It answer your question?

>>13962734
Well, Char got a fucking lot of revenge done for a single guy. He more or less did 1/2 of the job by his own hands in ending the Zabis, Amuro helping out with the remainder.

With a facist government like Zabi Zeon, taking each of the hydra's heads is a sure way to destroying any semblance of a coordinated war effort, and even with the Zabis, Zeon wasn't doing well on that front.

If Char had waited awhile, he probably could have restored himself to as much power he wanted by revealing himself as Deikun's son. Garma liked Char so much he'd probably drop to his knees and suck his dick in front of everybody watching as soon as Char told him he's not only a badass ace pilot, but also a Newtype and the son of Zeon himself. And Dozle if he was still alive would probably come along for the ride with Garma, if Gihren's Greed and Origin can be believed.

>>13964106
>Even if they had killed the whitebase the tides were turning anyway
Depends on exactly "where" in the timeline that occurs.

A large part of why the GM program and associated V-project Gundams were so successful is because of Amuro's learning computer data.

Rather than start from bog-zero with GMs tryingn to learn anti-MS combat (of which Zeon's pilots would have a slight upper-hand), each GM pilot already has excellent mobility data from Amuro's actions in the RX-78-2. They start as almost-semi-cyber-newtypes in terms of their combat performance, minus the precognizance.

If Amuro dies or never gets into the Rx-78-2 before the data is added to the GM program, even with beam weapons and a better manufacturing base, the Federation would have a much, much tougher time reclaiming lost ground. Amuro was their sole Newtype until side story bullshit is added, like the Augusta Institute to rival Zeon's Flanagan Institute and Pale Rider and all that jazz.

The White Base and original Gundam MS trio are good, but aside from their armor, they're not THAT good.

A land-mode Dom is nearly as powerful as a Gundam, if only with a larger target silhouette and less agility (but better mobility). And those things were mass-produced.

By the time we get to the Gelgoog, Zeon is literally mass-producing Gundams. Screw the Alex, they had 50+ RX-78's running around at A Baoa Qu; the only difference is that they had crap armor, no plot armor, and no experienced pilots too late into the war.

Also, the Dolos Class Carriers were a mistake. A flat stupid mistake.

>>13964348
>Char would never willingly submit to anyone else and never not despise stupid people. Garma was too naive.
Char doesn't particularly respect Garma from an academic/warrior standpoint, but it's shown that he at least doesn't consider him dirt (his vengeance aside). They ARE friends, up until Char saw his chance to end him.

If he called the shots, and Garma openly kowtowed to him, Char would probably leave Garma alone (albeit stripping him of most if not all his political power). Garma probably would be okay with this if Char wasn't a vengeful Red Assburger Syndrome patient with a chip on his shoulder; I mean, if he stopped being necessary for Zeon's continuation, he'd get to have a cool "best friend," AND get to marry the girl he liked.

>>13972534

It's explained by game guides that Ral helps the WB crew because he recognized Artesia. That's how they return to the feddies. Amuro survives but the Gundam is destroyed in every variation of this scenario.

>>13972308
i think i'm in love with the Char

>>13962763
>>13962845
CIDF fuck off.

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>>13974015
You got to love the Char

The war goes as it always did up until A Bao Qu. Gihren hits Degwin and Revil with the colony laser, as usual. But Kycillia waits until after the battle to take revenge. Does Zeon win?

>>13976819
Well the Delaz fleet won't fuck off immediately, for one. And they were carrying a lot of high-end Zakus and a handful of Gelgoogs. Also Anavel Gato.

Even if they still lose at A Baoa Qu, or even just withdraw sooner, they'll have a lot more hardware to work with, Char might not be able to wax BOTH of them, and Side 3 is going to be one snappy desperate fight with both sides on their last legs until the Feds can get fresh production batches to the front. The question then becomes how well does Gelgoog rate procurement spool up, how recklessly are the Feds willing to act with their fucked up and badly depleted fleets, what does Gihren plan at that point, and who sues for peace first.