Besides the "Our enemy is a race of giant aliens with giant

Fighters can't hold ground.

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>>13876447

>>13876447

We've had this discussion dozens of times before. Just look in the archive if you want your answer, moron.

>>13876453
that's what the infantry is for, no?

>>13876447
>What reason would a Giant Robot want to give up his versatility and power to become a regular plane in the sky?
That is exactly what your reasoning sounds like.

>>13876489
>that's what the infantry is for
>Our enemy is a race of giant aliens
Good look to that infantry fighting those giant aliens.

>>13876500
My entire question was centered around a Non-Macross setting. The whole, "Besides" part of my OP.

>>13876489
And how are those infantry going to stand up to a giant robot?

>>13876510
Either you're trolling or retarded. You're literally asking why giant robots should exist, on a giant robot board.

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Why is /k/ so mad?

>>13876522

I'm asking why a specific type of mech should exist, not mechs as a whole.

It's just that I've never seen the whole fighter/mech thing done outside of Macross, which has a very setting-specific reason for it, and Transformers, which is very silly.

>>13876522
with missile launchers.

>>13876510

>>13876453
here, I didn't see that part of your post. my bad

>>13876447
You have absolutely no idea the level of bile and hatred I have for threads like this

>>13876531
If the enemy also has giant robots, why build a fighter that cannot transform into a giant robot? You're just asking yourself to get shot out of the sky.

>I've never seen the whole fighter/mech thing done outside of
Watch Zeta then. Literally more than half of all the mobile suits in the show are transformers of some form or other. Victory also has a lot of it.

>>13876447
The real question is if there's a reason for battroid mode when GERWALK can seemingly do everything it can and more.

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>>13876531
You have evidently not watched enough anime.

>>13876557

Gotta fold those wings up so you can walk down the hallways without scrapping the sides.

>>13876447

Given no giant aliens, there is no reason other than the novelty of being able to fly to the battlefield then take part in precise on-the-ground attacks. Given that your enemy has the same technology level as you, their dedicated ground designs and fighter aircraft would outclass any sort of double-duty design that tries to fill both roles.

The Battletech wiki says it best:

>While highly versatile, LAMs are jacks-of-all-trades and masters of none. While able to serve double-duty as both a Aerospace Fighter and BattleMech, the required conversion equipment means that a LAM in either mode has less combat capacity ton-for-ton than a fighter or 'Mech of equivalent weight.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Land_Air_'Mech

>>13876557
See how well you can use your hands when you're 3' tall and have a 3' long tube sticking out of your chest.

>>13876557
Have you not watched SDF, or hell, even Frontier, and not seen how important Battroid is for close spaces?

>>13876616
>logic and limitations of one franchise applying to others
>logic and limitations applying to giant robots at all
You're as bad as OP.

Why even make threads like this?

>>13876654

OP said no giant aliens, so I gave him the only answer I could think of. I can' justify double-duty design with a very specific enemy for them to counter. It's why combined arms rules the day.

>>13876660
People gotta Frodo every once in a while I guess

>>13876665
The real answer is that trying to answer the question is silly. It's fiction; attempts to apply extensive or fundamental IRL logic to it kill its very reason for existing and suck any real enjoyment there was to be had in it out through muh realism.

>>13876660
Fucking this.

>>13876447
it would make kind of make sense in space since there are asteroid fields and stuff

I have a feeling this thread is going to become something good real soon. Time to grab some popcorn.

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>>13876677

I don't know, I really enjoy Macross and I still see the value in friendly discussion of it's internal logic from time to time.

It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Macross to admit that VF's don't make sense without the Giant Aliens for them to fight.

>>13876447
what would be more practical in a space battle a star fighter or a mech?

>>13876695

Archive/Google

>>13876616
What is hilarious is the old rules for LAMs were incredibly broken. The Gerwalk equivalent had such incredible maneuverability that LAMs were basically unhittable. Building a 6/9/6 50 ton LAM with a laser loadout was amazing. Jumping for 18 with no heat in LAM mode while getting the advantageous VTOL movement rules was insane in the membrane. It made LAMs ton-for-ton way better than 'mechs. Even their supposed weakness was negligible as required your enemy to run LB-X ACs with cluster munitions for a paltry -1 bonus to hit, your jump gave them a +4-5 penalty to hit so you more than came out ahead. And that's assuming you even gave them a shot with your huge maneuverability. Only tricked out clanners running Targeting Computers stood a chance at hitting you.

>>13876698
sounds like too much work

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>>13876695

Missile-boats

>>13876703

I only got into Battletech this century. Hearing talk of old Battletech makes me think it was some crazy, lawless Wild West of a game.

>>13876695

Depends on what you want to do. Destroy with no survivors? Fighter's probably your best bet. Want to capture the enemy, rather than slaughter? Mech's are the way to go.

>>13876724
>Mech's are the way to go
>Mech is are the way to go

>>13876552
In Zeta, it just allows it to move faster, since in plane form its thrust is more focused

>>13876714
FASA had a lot problems. Another funny thing about LAMs is the first printing of the rules detailing their construction forgot to mention the 55 ton weight limit. I made a remarkably silly 100 ton LAM and used it in a couple of free-for-all games before someone called me on it. We checked books and laughed as my copy of Aerotech was missing the last paragraph that included the weight limits.

Also in the days before BV came into being tonnage was the standard balancing mechanic. It is why many old grogs still think clanners are cheap scumbags, playing IS vs Clan based on tonnage just led to slaughters of IS players.

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>>13876500
With the right equipment, an infantryman can disable targets much larger than himself.

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>>13876744

This is very true.

You have to note that even in Macross, battroid mode isn't used much unless they need to move in tight spaces, go melee, or simply providing a relatively stable platform for their guns if they need to do some gunnery, like in the case of sniper VFs.

Otherwise, they stick to fighter and gerwalk a lot of the time.

>>13876744

Did you miss the part where Hikaru's VF exploded right in Britai's face and he stood up just fine afterwards?

>>13876795

There's a difference between a general, unfocused explosion and a molted jet of metal directed towards the target.

>>13876744

Okay, and?

>>13876616
Ironically, the saying "Jack-of-all-trades and master of none" had the exact opposite meaning originally.
"Jack-of-all-trades and master of none but BETTER than master of one."

>>13878877

Yeah, but that's when we're talking about human beings as a parts within a society.

The original peasants who thought that saying up weren't thinking about military vehicles within the framework of a Combined Arms reality.

>>13876558
>posting MS from ZZ
>anime
Anime ja nai, anon
Anime ja nai

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>>13876447

I've been meaning to ask, what Artist is this?

>>13879268

http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1027223

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>>13878903
HONTOU NO KOTO SAAAA

>>13877322
Nothing other than Infantry isn't the bottom rung of the food chain. as you imply.

>>13879268
>head fairing open
Bothers me every time, why do artists always fuck it up?

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>>13881391

I imagine those are mid-air-refuel ports they forgot to cover?

>>13876733

And to allow some units, like the Zeta, to have more maneuverability during atmospheric descent.

Balutes are basically gigantic "Shoot Me" signs, as demonstrated by Kackricon's death.

>>13881506
Isn't that the head laser of the VF-19 when in VF mode?

I don't think a VF after the -0 has needed refueling ports ever since they made the switch to thermonuclear engines.

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>>13881523

Wouldn't the nose be the chest, though?

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>>13881532
Yes, it is.

I thought >>13881391 was talking about the single laser gun sticking out of the top back of the VF.

>>13876447
Because fighter jets can't disarm nukes.

That episode of Dancouga was STUPID.

>>13881555
>>13881523
It's the cover directly aft of the head. It's supposed to be closed over the head for aerodynamics and only open when the turret needs to move but in almost all YF-19 art it's fucking open.

>>13876447
Because said jets/mechs are built with crazy alien tech and can fight in any possible situation on land, air, or in space.

>>13881581

Well, I don't know, but some mechanic is going to get deck mop duties for the next week for forgetting it.

At least it wasn't an engine/leg.

>>13876447
Because a fighter cannot quickly change the direction it is facing. A battroid can turn 360 degress and gerwalk away.

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>>13881581
>It's supposed to be closed over the head for aerodynamics and only open when the turret needs to move but in almost all YF-19 art it's fucking open.
That's because it's supposed to be open.

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>>13881619

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>>13881657
>>13881619

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Why isn't there a getter style combining valk?

>>13881702
It's called Aquarion

>>13881657
That's the VF-19 Advanced, not the YF-19.
>>13881689
>fanart is more true than official art
Yeah, okay.

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>>13881787

To be fair, the base lineart colors that little portion black like several other details, so no one can really tell.

Maybe the Excalibur Master File holds better-defined lineart that can answer that?

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>>13881825

>>13881787
Just look at the fucking thing, it just happens to match the shape of the head exactly with a little notch for the laser but it should be open all the time with a big ugly drag inducing flat edge?

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>>13881854

So how does it work? Is there a cowling that is supposed to slide into place? Or is it the head laser sliding into the notch on the shield's edge and back out when the laser needs to keep on target? Since the environ shots of the YF-19 in the Master File show its laser set flush against the notch, but lineart otherwise depicts it with inner workings exposed and the black cowling retracted.

>>13881854

I've never understood what maneuver Isamu is pulling at the beginning of that video?

>>13883379
probably still trying to stabilize his plane while getting the fuck outta the firing line

>>13883372
The cowling slides back to allow the laser to move.

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>>13883420

So it slides into the dorsal spine?

>>13883437
No, the curved part on the shield is what moves.

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>>13883447
I keep getting the impression that it's the head that retracts forward to aim and fire since the positioning of the head relative to the stored shoulder blocks in fighter mode changes depending on whether the head is "exposed" or not.

The blast surface of the shield looks like a non-moving singular piece to me, but then again, where I am, I should have been asleep hours ago. Thanks anyways.

>>13883508
I never thought of it that way but perhaps you're correct.

>>13883379

It's a game of pull-up chicken

He's pulling up towards his target and his targets is pulling up towards him.

His target gives up first.

>>13876557
Gerwalk was an accident. It's clearly superior to Battroid in every way, but it only exists because it's a halfway point between forms.

>>13885916
Meleeing in gerwalk is really dangerous though, considering that the cockpit will be right in the face of the enemy.

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>>13885931

>Macross
>Melee of any kind

>>13885950
>not having a melee option
Battroid was made for meleeing zentradi and maneuvering in tight spaces.

>>13885978

It was made for taking cover behind rubble and shooting around corners, not bayonet charges.

>>13888121
Then why did they give it the power to shining finger?

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>>13885950
What is pinpoint barrier and knives

>>13885950
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLi7ULuqDkQ#t=1m15

>>13888319
>DOOT DOOT DOOT
Fucking Robotech music, christ.

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>>13888319
>Daedalus Attack
OLYMPUS OVER!
POSEIDON WAVE!
JUSTICE HURRICANE!

>>13888121
And then the zentradi soldier you are fighting charges up to your VF and starts meleeing you.
Having melee as a backup is helpful.

There's a reason why they went for PPB fists and knives for later VFs, and its for situations where melee comes in useful.

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>>13888319
nope, we mean robotech

that theme score is way better than "maaah kuuuu rosss maaah kuuuu rosssss" yodeling that makes even a lounge singer cringe

>>13888770
i hate you

>>13876754
It blew the turret clean off how does that even work?

>>13885950
I've yet to see a Macross work that didn't have mechs doing hand to hand combat.

>>13888238

Sometimes I wonder what would it be like if they could do PPB shaping like the Quarter and its quantum gun gunship as a melee weapon (it's probably just the gunship projecting its own PPB, I know). They wouldn't need the assault knife anymore. Don't need to put it on the gunpod, just install the requisite technology in the VF.

The could Zeta an enemy fighter when the going gets tough 'cause ain't nobody got time to swerve.

They could hurricane twister punch without wrist rotation and all that ki stuff.

They could Krav Maga another Bodole like the Unicorn to the Neo Zeong.

We could be having Super Ozma Kick right now.

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>>13888848
PPB shields can move anywhere across the body so theoretically you could do a PPB kick.

>>13888848
Give them time anon we got a new Macross in a couple of months wouldn't be surprised if Kawamori already has all that set out in lego form for use in the show

>>13888821
Most probably an ammorack explosion, especially if its a T-70 pr something, those things are famous for their ammorack explosions.

>>13888873
They have gun tonfas this time round, we could have some gun-fu.

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>>13888985
Soon.

>>13888873

There was a YF-25 with a lance weapon or something, wasn't it?

>>13888797
It's a comment from youtube

>>13888873
Not until VFs get tomehawks

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>>13889113
Katanas are better.

>>13889133
Debatable on context and situation, also not as cool

The were reverse-engineering Zentraedi tech and that's the designs they got out of it.

>>13876616
>>13876665

You're forgetting that Macross tech is so advanced that they could defeat like 99% of fictional spacefaring universes out there not named Lensman. They run on bullshit, their machines are literally perfect at everything when they want them to be.

>>13890311
>You're forgetting that Macross tech is so advanced that they could defeat like 99% of fictional spacefaring universes out there not named Lensman

This guy, this fucking guy

>>13891631

Their big thing is sheer numbers. Even the individual fighter jets in Macross are extremely good, and this is a setting where their total armed forces in terms of battleships is in the billions.

>>13891837

That wasn't what I meant, but okay

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>>13876522
With smaller robots and possibly nukes.

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>>13891875
>wasting a nuke on one mass produced robot
Thanks for losing this fantasy war

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>>13892020
>not mass producing nukes
Still cheaper than the robots.

>>13892157
Macross already has mass produced nukes.

>>13892157
This seems like a really impractical way to deliver atomic payloads.

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>>13892509
It was the 50s. People were throwing nukes at the wall to see what stuck.

>>13892509

Surely you must know of the almighty Davy Crockett?

>>13876453

I don't see why they couldn't with alien protoculture bullshit. Real fighters can't hold ground because they run out of fuel in an hour or two, and need like 10 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight..

>>13896554
>Real fighters can't hold ground because they run out of fuel in an hour or two, and need like 10 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight..

And real humans need to refuel every five hours or so to stay in peak condition and need about an hour of sleep for every two hours of up time.

The REAL reason fighters can't hold ground is because they have to keep moving to survive. An infantryman can sit his but down and his heart doesn't stop ticking.

Remember, VF's have much better fuel and maintenance ratios than our world's fighters.

>>13896568

A human can, in an emergency such as a protracted firefight, very plausibly operate in some limited capacity for at least three whole days and nights with no sleep, food, or water.

An airplane will fall out of the fucking sky and explode when it runs out of fuel, giving it just enough time for it to sortie out to whatever needs bombing, bomb it, and get back ASAP. Obviously that isn't holding ground, it's just striking the enemy. An aircraft that can stay up as long as the pilot can, however, should be able to deny a chunk of land to the enemy, which is the only meaningful part of "holding ground"

An aircraft couldn't effectively city terrain since it obviously won't fit, and locating targets in that mess would be nearly impossible. But in mountains, hills, etc. it should be possible. Forests, depends on how well IR works at finding stuff down there.