>In particular, the comments of director Mamoru Oshii (Gh

I love Oshii to death but no, he's wrong.

>>13641834
This would all be fine if we had Teddy Long in charge of Japan to book these guys in some tag team matches.

>>13641834
Oh look, it's another "old quote by anime person criticising another anime person/genre/show with a question at the end asking either Was he right? or Do you agree /a/ / /m/?" thread.
Christ, this board needs a janitor.

>>13641834
>“all style and no substance.”

Just like Patlabor 2!

>>13641863
Patlabor 2 was fine.

Angel's Egg, however...

>>13641834
It's true. Evangelion is pretty much just a generic robot-anime with a different external appearance. Non-plebs can easily see this and accept this.

>>13641834
Isn't this interview old? Didn't another interviewer follow up on it, to which he admitted he was being a curmudgeon and that Evangelion was alright or something?

>>13641834
>all style and no substance

Pot calling the kettle black.

>>13641834
>he criticized Evangelion for being “all style and no substance.” He goes on to say that it's “an endless repetition of stereotypes and facsimiles of things we've seen elsewhere,” and that Evangelion creator Hideaki Anno “has no themes or motifs.”

This is 100% true and actually applies to pretty much ever Gainax work.

>>13641834
>Miyazaki seems to be confident living in the “real world,”

Well Oshii, there goes your credibility.

>>13641834
>he criticized Evangelion for being “all style and no substance.” He goes on to say that it's “an endless repetition of stereotypes and facsimiles of things we've seen elsewhere,”
You know, I'd be okay with literally anyone other than Mamoru Oshi saying this.

>>13642088
Hey, man, just because you can't understand the deep symbolism behind birds and basset hounds in a fish-eye lens doesn't mean it ain't there.

I actually think Eva is mediocre, but it did have some substance to it and an overarching message, even if the execution seemed lacking to me.

That said, I love quite a few animated pieces that are all style and no substance. Dead Leaves for example. Something doesn't have to aspire to have some sort of profound message to excel in the animated medium.

>>13641853
our janitor would be another shitposter anon don't summon it

>>13641974
He means in the sense that people in Miyazaki's works act like "Real People" without resorting to genre character tropes, liek the tsundere, the kudere, older scientist lady, etc etc.

>>13641834
Yes, extremely so. Granted, Evangelion's appeal is in due part owed to how much incredible believability Anno and the writing staff managed to forge with what, at first glance, are complete genre tropes.

Take Asuka for example:
-Literal definition of Tsundere
-Staple Gainax archetypes of the fiery redhead and foreign pilot
-Oh no i have to live at the MC's house!

However Anno within that flipped it around by providing:
-Realistic childhood traumas
-Incredible in Universe pressures
-The actual insanity of Puberty

The only other creator i can think of who comes close is Kojima, both use tropes and archetypes to build trust with the Audience, only to pull the camp carpeting right out from under you to reveal more complex psychological reasoning. They differ obviously in that one uses Eastern media and anime where as the other uses predominant western sources and video games.

>>13642460
Asuka is not a tsundere. Tsundere implies that she's nice. Asuka was just a bitch.

With an understandable backstory and proper characterization justifying why she's a bitch, but she's still unlikable. Which is okay.

I think the problem is that Rei and Asuka are probably not intended to fall into the archetypes people have assigned them to because it makes them better waifus.

Anno made 3.0.

That is enough to validate Oshii.

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>>13642460
>The only other creator i can think of who comes close is Kojima

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>>13642460
>-Literal definition of Tsundere
I hope you don't mean that anon

>>13642484
>Asuka is not a tsundere. Tsundere implies that she's nice. Asuka was just a bitch.
Tsundere implies dere, not niceness. I don't think a Shinji/Asuka romance would have been completely out of the question, realistically speaking, but Asuka didn't really see Shinji that way.
I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just clearing that up. Also, she wasn't really a bitch. Cat Lady was a bitch.

I see this thread is going good places

>>13642504
Good arguments!

>>13642460
>>13642535

Asuka is a tsungire you plebeian shit

>>13642553
I can see the comparisons between Anno making a super robot anime based on 70s super robot anime and Kojima making video games based on 80s/90s action movies, but that comparison is skin-deep. Evangelion is for the most part meant to be taken seriously. It has its upbeat moments and it often plays the super robot schtick in earnest, but one of the biggest themes of the series is hedgehogs and that's depressing. Metal Gear Solid is melodramatic and campy, and has more fun with its setting than not. People like the heavy-hitting moments because they play to the same heavy-hitting moments from 80s/90s action movies. The biggest reason MGS4 was so unpopular aside from shitting on the perfectly fine convoluted plot of previous games was because it was incredibly depressing. It wasn't a cheesy action movie, it was one of those war movies. Yeah, it's still goofy and anime, but the contrast doesn't work right because the overall tone of the game doesn't work right. Also because suspension of disbelief reaches record heights on the despair train for reasons that basically come down to "because plot."

>>13641834
He's totally right.
But literally none of the things he listed are bad in the slightest.

>>13642602
Are people still going off the retarded and wrong idea that Eva was supposed to be a "deconstruction" of 70s mecha when it's far more like a love letter?

>>13642627
Obviously. I'm just saying that the feel of the series really is depressing. If you look at the documents and interviews Anno was at the end of his rope when he made that shit, and what should have been a low-budget 90s UltraMazinger ended up being about how much the director hated himself.
It's pretty apparent in the Rebuilds that Evangelion really only worked because of the depressing atmosphere.

>>13642602
> use tropes and archetypes to build trust with the Audience, only to pull the camp carpeting right out from under you to reveal more complex psychological reasoning.

First off i said they used different source material and techniques, so differences arise there foremost. Secondly no one on first watch of Evangelion was supposed to take it seriously it has all the stupid hallmarks of every 70's mecha. Neon robots with cool heads who battle against monster of the week aliens a wacky mascot, under ground super labs, Techno lingo for the mechas creation. Once the series progresses and all of that is slowly flipped and stripped away, then the camp which supposedly flavoured the universe is eroded with heavy shit. Metal gear is like wise very goofy on surface layering but in that wacky space emerges sadder darker themes which under pin everything, also remin me which 80's/90's action movie ends with the MC throwing away the audiences admission tickets because he has become a self aware character in a movie that may not even be happening beyond a sequal to the first.

>>13642602
>hurr super robot is super happy no depressing
Fuck off. Evangelion is basically just Anno's version of super robot manga in anime form. Robot anime was always aimed at kids and preteens, but the manga series was usually darker sci-fi. Evangelion is a your standard super robot manga, but newfags will never know because they don't read.

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>>13642696
>Secondly no one on first watch of Evangelion was supposed to take it seriously it has all the stupid hallmarks of every 70's mecha. Neon robots with cool heads who battle against monster of the week aliens a wacky mascot, under ground super labs, Techno lingo for the mechas creation. Once the series progresses and all of that is slowly flipped and stripped away, then the camp which supposedly flavoured the universe is eroded with heavy shit. Sorry, but you're a fucking idiot. Are you one of those people who forgets that you see Eva-01's true face in one of the first episodes?
Right off the bat the series looked like a typical shonen mecha series, but that was abandoned by the end of the first episode when Shinji and Unit-01 get their shit kicked in. And on top of that, it's greusome. Sure, the gore just gives it an edgy Dynamic Pro feel, but even then the atmosphere is way off. Everything about the way the scenes are composed, from the bleak colors to the oppressive sound of the cicadas clearly distinguishes Eva from the notoriously upbeat and energetic pseudo-source material.

>>13642707
>Evangelion is a your standard super robot manga, but newfags will never know because they don't read.
You're exactly right. Who could ever forget that chapter of Getter Robo where Ryouma's soul is so crushed by the completely alien violence that he turns into a husk of a middle-schooler during training? Or the famous Mazinger Z volume, "My Mazinger's Eyes Told Me To Proceed Into Magma's Arms," where Kouji tries to find an answer to why he fights Dr. Hell's lovecraftian monsters?

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>>13642775
Eat shit, mario

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>>13642790
>spic meme
Oh wow, you sure showed me.
Yes, a solitary page from a completely unrelated manga that Evangelion wasn't based on is absolute proof. Therefore, there is no basis for any argument that I have made. Nobody on /m/ has ever complained about the somber tone of Evangelion compared to muh CUHRAYZEE super robot manga. In fact, nobody on /m/ even reads the manga, they just watch the notoriously shitty anime that's based on them. When someone makes a Mazinger thread, it's always "Watch the anime!" This is not an Italian opinion at all.

>>>/evageeks/
>>>/reddit/
>>>/v/

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>realize that it doesn't matter that if people think Evangelion sucks or not
>it will be talked about as long as "anime" is still a thing

>>13641834
Evangelion confirmed for gibs facsimiles

>all style and no substance
I disagree with him on this point, because I really feel like a lot of it comes from Anno's own issues with depression(that have been well-documented) as well as his own criticism and self-awareness of otaku culture and anime tropes. I'm not the first person to say this, but it's something I agree with, at least.
>an endless repetition of stereotypes and facsimiles of things we've seen elsewhere
I agree with this in regards to Evangelion, but in a way that the same thing was present with A New Hope, where George Lucas was both a fan of serial sci-fi and classic/arthouse cinema.

>>13642827
>spic meme
Where
>a completely unrelated manga that Evangelion wasn't based on
The argument is that Eva was done in the style of super robot manga. Who are you to say that it has no influence from Yokoyama's works?

Eat shit, mario.

>>13642950
>Where
>Eat shit, Mario
It's still shitposting if it's ironic.
>The argument is that Eva was done in the style of super robot manga. Who are you to say that it has no influence from Yokoyama's works?
Hideaki Anno.

GN : Someone told me that Evangelion was visually inspired by Ultraman, is it true ?

HA : EVA is an "Ultramanian" character, sure. But to be honest, the visual inspiration also comes from Devilman.

..


HA : Like the Mazinger that I was recopying, i didn't really progress in drawings. (Laugh)

GN : (hollow laugh)

HA : Still concerning the face, I love Mazinger Z in profile towards the first episode in the prepublication. It's his first appearance and Kouji discovers it with a stunning cry.

GN : The scene in the house of the grandpa, is that it ?

HA : Yes, it really marked me. That must be why I gave the same kind of eyes to the first version of EVA. When I brought these rectifications on the original drawings, I couldn't prevent myself from drawing the eyes in the style of Master Nagai.

And in the first episode of Evangelion, the first appearance of EVA is a big shot on his face, right ?

HA : Euh yes, that's it. (Laugh) Sorry.

GN : Fancy that ? (Laugh)

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>>13642999
All that does is prove the influence of Ultraman and Mazinger Z. He didn't mention The General Zapped an Angel, so does that mean it had no influence on Evangelion?

You're not very good at logic, mario.

Mods delete this thread onegai

>>13643004
>one visual reference means that the series is based on it
Now this is shitposting.
No wonder you think Evangelion is exactly like Giant Robo, or that Evangelion is even remotely atmospherically reminiscent of Yokoyama's works..
I mean, you still have yet to even move in the general direction of making a point that holds water, but go ahead and keep shitposting. You're making /m/ a better place.

>>13643004
>no arguments
>spicposting

>>13643019
and he puts on his trip to shitpost like usual. Not to mention the severe lack of reading comprehension. gg mario

>>13643019
>but go ahead and keep shitposting. You're making /m/ a better place.
The exact same goes for you, moron.

>>13643004
But The General Zapped An Angel didn't have any influence on Evangelion you /r/anime shitposter. One visual reference isn't what most people would call "influential."

>>13643032
>One visual reference
That is literally an influence.

Okay, it seems thinking isn't your strong suit so let's try this: how does Anno talking about Mazinger's influence prove that Evangelion had no other influences aside from Mazinger?

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Evangelion is a cheap whore at this point, tarted up by Anno to turn new tricks in his redux films whenever he wants some more Yen and attention.

>>13643043
>That is literally an influence
A visual nod that has absolutely no impact on the story is not influential you redditor. Saying that book influenced Evangelion when there are literally, and I mean literally no similarities between the two works (and I'm probably giving you too much credit here by assuming you're talking about the titular story) is crazy. It's entirely possible Anno's never even read any of the stories inside The General Zapped An Angel.

>how does Anno talking about Mazinger's influence prove that Evangelion had no other influences aside from Mazinger?
>only one person could possibly disagree with me

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>>13643084
>It's entirely possible Anno's never even read any of the stories inside The General Zapped An Angel.
So? The cover visual influenced the visuals in a scene of Evangelion. That's all it takes. And you still haven't refuted my second point.

>>13643063
this desu senpai except not desu senpai

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>>13643096
Nice /a/ reaction image, Mr. Evangelion Is Exactly Like Giant Robo Because Giant Robo Went Dark Places Which Means It's The Same Pretentious, Brooding Garbage As Evangelion. Why should I argue for somebody else? Moreover,
>how does Anno talking about Mazinger's influence prove that Evangelion had no other influences aside from Mazinger?
>HA : EVA is an "Ultramanian" character, sure. But to be honest, the visual inspiration also comes from Devilman.
I want both of you off my /m/.

>>13643128
You haven't presented any counter arguments. All you did was post ad hominem.
>HA : EVA is an "Ultramanian" character, sure. But to be honest, the visual inspiration also comes from Devilman.
How does that exclude other materials having an influence on Evangelion? It doesn't, by the way.

You're not doing so hot, champ.

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>>13643128
Didn't realize we were policing reaction images now

>>13643142
Nice shifting the goalposts. Everything about your entire argument is pants-on-head retarded. First you argued that all old-school mecha manga were the same as Evangelion. Then you posted an incredibly out of context page that not only made disingenuous assertions about what kind of manga Giant Robo was, but failed to prove that Giant Robo was anything like Eva. Then you take this further with even more disingenuous assertions, pretending that you think a collection of short stories you've never read being referenced in a movie that took place after the series in both production and plot proves that Anno could have been influenced by ANYTHING, making your whole point about 60s and 70s manga useless in the first place. Are you even >>13642950? Because if you've come all this way after posting that, you're a fucking retard.

>>13643156
Crossboarding should be discouraged, especially from boards like /a/.

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>>13643188
So someone using a reaction image of some kind must mean they're from or like that board, huh? That is some impressively stupid logic. Congrats to you for having it.

>>13643188
>Nice shifting the goalposts
There was no shift. I never said Evangelion was influenced by Giant Robo, why do you keep bringing that up?

>>13643215
>implying you can't tell what board someone mains by their reaction images
I mean I get you but 90% of the time you can tell where the shitposting is coming from based solely on what images are being posted. Unless you're going to pretend to ignore /m/'s recent and severe crossboarding problem.

>>13643156
That was SOP, once.

>>13643223
I don't know what you're trying to imply here >>13642790 if it isn't Giant Robo. Last I checked Tetsujin didn't have scans. It could be Iga no Kagemaru or Sally the Witch, but I don't know why you would reference either of those in a argument over your "standard super robot manga."

>>13643245
That's Mars you dingus, not Giant Robo.

>>13643253
I haven't read Mars in years, Jesus. I totally forgot it existed. That said, my opinion hasn't shifted at all and that guy is still a fucking idiot.

Mars may have a more serious tone, but it still doesn't feel like a gloomy, pretentious mess. Well, at the very least, it's not really what you'd call representative of manga at the time.

>>13643245
>I don't know what you're trying to imply here...if it isn't Giant Robo
Please don't talk about subjects you're ignorant about, thank you.

>>13643288
Sorry, but the last time I read Mars you were still on reddit. Yokoyoma (Tezuka too, come to think) is kinda like Nagai in that if you don't have the title and it's not their big names, they all kinda look the same. Although with Nagai and Tezuka they shamelessly re-used characters.

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>>13643302
>not being able to recognize the work when you have an entire page to work with

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>>13643312
Dude I can't tell the difference between The Origin and that one parody manga who's name eludes me and I've read both recently. How am I gonna remember some shit I read in high school when the artist's manga all look the same and I got Imagawa trying to fuck with me by referencing scenes from different works?

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>>13643331
Having any sort of memory might help

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>>13643339
I remember the important bits.

>>13643302
>Main character is literally on the page
You have no excuse, and you haven't read Mars or Giant Robo.

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>>13643302
>confusing Mars for Giant Robo
It's impossible if you're old enough to post on the 4chan

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>>13643343
You don't seem to be very good at that

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>>13643343
>>13643390

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>>13643396

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>>13643407

>>13641834
Too bad the guy's best work was done 30 years ago. I always wondered what made his narrative direction so bad in everything he made after the 80s.

And no, he's wrong about Evangelion and seems to be wrong about Anno himself.

>>13641834
>Evangelion is overrated

Yes, he's right.

>>13641834
Says the man who gave us stray dogs ,GITS:innocence and sky crawlers.

A glib facsimile

>>13644642
>Patlabor 2
>Ghost in the Shell
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

>>13645414
>>>/pol/

>>13645414
>They just took the German soldiers' uniforms and starved them to death in a single day and stacked up piles of random poor people shoes that they got from somewhere! That makes way more sense!

>>13641834
So just like Arise 1, Arise 3, and Arise 4?

>>13644687
Came here to meme this.
>>13645459
He didn't work on Arise, so what's your point?

>>13641834
He nailed it!

>>13641834
>he criticized Evangelion for being “all style and no substance.”
>“an endless repetition of stereotypes and facsimiles of things we've seen elsewhere,”
>“has no themes or motifs.”
Wow I've been saying this for years but it feels good to hear Oshii say it. Eva fans BTFO.

>>13641834
Well I'm biased. I fucking hate how EVA has become this huge classic while better shows remain forgotten.

EVA wasn't even bad, just mediocre.

>>13649354
Underage tits sell
Preteens love self inserting as Shinji

>>13642460
Ha yeah if I had to describe Evangelion in one word:

Puberty.

Seriously it is a great show if you are like 14 and have issues with your parents. When you feel like nobody understands you and everyone is crazy and girls are scary blah blah blah we were all teenagers once.