Mobile Suits with shields > Mobile Suits without shields

>>13641155

Do beam shields count as shields in this case? How many mobile suits have neither, cause I don't think there are many.

I find it weirder that ejection systems are so rare frankly. The pilots deserve that as much, if not more than a shield.

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>>13641155
Gotta disagree with you on that one.

>>13641155

But Shields are the Redshirts of the Gundam Universe. They exist only to die so that you know how dire the situation is. They don't provide any actual protection until F91.

>>13641155
>GP04
I need a HG of that so fucking bad. Too damn sexy.

>>13641159
The Solo Wing Pixie Gundam doesn't have a shield, iirc.
Also most of Zeon's aquatic MS don't have shields. The Dom doesn't, and so does the Kampfer. That's what i can get off the top of my head right now.

>>13641573
Punch yourself.

>>13641573
The Kampfer has the best shields ever imagined: overwhelming dakka to destroy the target before they even fire.

Bernie was just low on burger fuel by the end of his raid.

>>13641581
Why so serious buddy?

>>13641590
I honestly believe the Kampfer was a good idea executed short of realizing its full potential.
It had a great weapons loadout, and the armor tradeoff was reasonable for a hit-and-run type mobile suit. I think they should've given it to a tactician instead of a brute-forcer though.

>>13641624

It suits a brute forcer though? Because it requires a pilot willing to balls out on a target with no real care for his own safety since he has none essentially. And to be fair to Mikhail (or whatever his name was), he did well with it until he ran out of weapons and got a bit of a surprise when the the Alex was hardier than anticipated. I'm not sure what else you could have expected from the dude.

>>13641155
Logical warfare and combat has no place in the Gundam universe. You should know this.

>>13641635
Yeah, I get what you mean.
I just like to view the Kampfer as an ambush predator type who will execute a surgical strike then jump back into the shadows when it's done. I always figured Mikhail should've stayed with his Z'gok E.

>>13641159
Why not put beam shield emitters on a physical shield? That way the beam shield can cover more area, since I imagine it'd be multiple emitters working in tandem, and if the energy ran out you still had a physical shield to fall back on. Plus you can store more weapons, ecaps, etc on the inner side of the shield.

>>13641624
>>13641635
the drunk ruskie piloting it was both a tactician and a brute forcer. And since its an anime him being drunk while piloting in this critical mission upped his power as its his specific archetype's elixir.

He was just destined to fail. He was outmoded, old, a relic. All his weapons short of the mine whip were totally mundane, almost antiquated. He lost because the Gundam Alex was using was new tech. He was totally flabbergasted at her mini arm cannons when they deployed.

He was out of time in that fight and whenever that happens the one out of time loses every time.

The Titans should have taken the Kampfer design and made a "colony buster" MS that could scuttle a side quick enough that the filthy spacenoids would stay in line.

>>13641657

I don't think there really are any shadows you could jump a mobile suit in to. At least not in the middle of a civilian colony, given how small they are and the type of terrain. Bernie had to set up the battlefield to give himself any kind of cover and Mikhail didn't really have that opportunity.

>>13641667
Titans prefer to make a scene when ADMINISTERING SPACE JUSTICE HURR and stuff, as far as MS use goes. NOTHETESTEAMDOESNTCOUNT

>>13641670
Good point there. I guess the point about bernie and his balloons would be something that could work with the Kampfer: creating distractions that will allow it to escape after raiding.

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>>13641673
Come on bitch boy

>>13641685

The thing about the balloons is, they wouldn't have done shit all on their own. The only reason they worked is because he released a shit load of smoke as well, so that Christina couldn't tell what was a mobile suit and what was a balloon given how bad the visibility was. Balloons on their own would be useless since you're so close you're never going to mistake them for anything else.

And even then, it only worked for a few minutes before the smoke cleared up. And it only worked at all because Christina was a good enough person that she was willing to risk her life battling in the smoke instead of waiting for it to clear or the pilot to leave and endanger the rest of the colony.

It is an effective way to set up the battlefield, but it is very situational and not something that's going to work for long or against more than a couple of enemies.

>>13641666
This is exactly how the G-Self works.

>>13641739
I haven't seen that show. Sounds neat.

>>13641667
Funny enough, now that you'd mention the drunk part, I have to intercede - while being drunk in combat is obviously undesirable, a small amount of alcohol to an accustomed person - say, 2 beers, or roughly 8-10 cl of hard liquor - provides what is in Finnish called a "shooting drunk", or a state where the natural tension and instability of the human body is relaxed, providing a greater sense of stability in aiming a firearm and other fine motorics. I am certain Russians have experience of this as well.

>>13641759
Would that matter as much in mobile suit combat, when your aim is assisted by a firing computer?

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>>13641666

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>>13641159
>beam shields

>>13641166
i think Mobile Fighters are an exception. Especially if their fighting style does not utilize one.

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GP02's refrigerator shield.

Just 'cause it's nuclear warfare doesn't mean you can't enjoy the comforts of climate control.

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The Freedom's shield irritates me to no end. It's a beamspam platform with hyper-enhanced mobility. It doesn't need a shield.

The only reason that shield (and the beam rifle) is there it's because of that retarded homage "hurr durr all main gundams must have RX-78 weapons derp derp". It's stupid. Even the Exia did that shit.

>>13642412
Strike Freedom doesn't have a visible shield.

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Harmonica

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>>13642658
By that point in Destiny, everyone had migrated to beam shields. Same as Victory.

>>13641739

The Turn-A can center it's i-field on the physical shield, though it's not generated from there or tied to it. So that's somewhat the same I guess?

>>13641759

The more drunk you are, the more likely you are to survive a serious accident because your body becomes more relaxed and reacts in a more flexible way to the impacts since you don't tense up as much. You're more likely to have an accident too in many cases, but at least you've got a higher chance of surviving it.

>>13642412

I don't actually mind this, because a base loadout of beam sabers, beam rifle and shield is actually a fairly good one that leaves you able to fight somewhat flexibly at most any range. I think more suits should do have bazookas too really. I'm more annoyed at suits like the Heavyarms that have shit loads of guns and missiles and then just a piddly knife for close combat. Jesus at least take a fucking beam saber. I don't care how much power it draws it cannot possibly be hard to fit one in to the suit's loadout. Shit, Trowa retroactively fits one to the arm for Heero so it's definitely possible.

>>13641155
Gundam Thunderbolt must be your favourite series then.

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>>13642818
>I don't actually mind this, because a base loadout of beam sabers, beam rifle and shield is actually a fairly good one that leaves you able to fight somewhat flexibly at most any range.
The fact that it's a (forced) homage to the RX-78 pisses me off deeply. Exia's case is even more egregious: it has GN-particle-coated blades everywhere. Why does it need beam sabers too, if not homage?

Also, why beam sabers all the time? Why not short ranged plasma knives, or heated blades?


>I'm more annoyed at suits like the Heavyarms that have shit loads of guns and missiles and then just a piddly knife for close combat.
If an MS doesn't have close-combat weapons, then it doesn't. Period. Buster has zero melee weapons.

>>13642967

> Why does it need beam sabers too?

Because they take up fuck all room and add some variation in both design and style as well as possible fighting options, since they offer different advantages and disadvantages over physical ones.

> Buster has zero melee weapons

If I'd thought of that instead of Heavyarms (which was simply the first to come to mind) I'd have used that as an example, because that's even dumber in my opinion.

>>13641550
Just get the RE/100

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Yo Someone say shields?

Do shoulder shields count? Because those are REALLY pointless.

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>>13643493


HOLD ME BACK NIGGA

>>13641155
Would you have watched a Gundam OVA about Cima Garahau testing the GP04 for the Federation and leading the hunt for Zeon remnants in the Earth Sphere?

>>13643054
>Because they take up fuck all room
They're a drain on the powerplant.

>and add some variation in both design and style
Bullshit. Virtually all main Gundams have beam sabers. It's only keeping the fucking forced tradition.

>>13643519

> They're a drain on the powerplant

So what? It's a fictional power plant. It can do whatever the guys writing or designing it want. If you have a power plant powerful enough to send a giant robot flying around with some guns, diverting some power to a sword really shouldn't be an issue. Especially one that is unlikely to be used at the same time as your guns anyways.

> Virtually all main Gundams have beam sabers

I meant on the unit itself, not as a unit within a franchise. It gives the unit itself some variety in weapon loadout and style of weapons - not the unit as a single part of a line of units.

> It's only keeping the fucking forced tradition

It's keeping it because it's a good base loadout and idea. The beam sabers, beam rifle and shield are all it keeps - because they're versatile and useful. Most of them don't have bazookas, beam spears and flails.

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>>13643559
>Most of them don't have bazookas
They generally have some sort of launcher unless they come with a mounted fuck off gun or few or have a main rifle stronger than one to start with.

Anyways if you can have beam sabers then melee weapons that aren't beam sabers are fucking retarded 99% of the time.

>Why not short ranged plasma knives, or heated blades?
What exactly is the point of a beam knife when it takes the same space to store? A beam saber can even be a knife if there's some sort of pressing need for it.

Actually Hyperion did have weird beam knives but that was because SEED had like a dozen different kinds of beam technology and Hyperion's gimmick was using lightwave for everything even if twas crappy.

>>13643559
>It gives the unit itself some variety in weapon loadout and style of weapons
Not all units are supposed to be multirole. You don't expect a howitzer to be good at providing direct fire against armor like a tank would. Specialization is a good thing. If you don't believe me, just look at the boondoggle that is the Joint Strike Fighter.

>It's keeping it because it's a good base loadout and idea. The beam sabers, beam rifle and shield are all it keeps - because they're versatile and useful.
Bullshit. It's because it's a fucking forced tradition for Gundam. If the idea of always having those three systems in every mecha is so "versatile and useful", then why we don't see it outside of Gundam with more frequency?
You didn't see Variable Fighters packing melee weapons until Frontier, and those are just regular knives, not energy blades (And having them would've made even more sense than in Gundam, since the Valkyrie was designed to be an infantry unit against whatever race of giants built the Macross originally).
And shields are a rarity outside of Gundam. I can only remember ML's TSFs using them in a semi-regular basis.

>Anyways if you can have beam sabers then melee weapons that aren't beam sabers are fucking retarded 99% of the time.
>What exactly is the point of a beam knife when it takes the same space to store?
My point was "Why not change them for plasma knives or heated blades, or even some sort of hydraulic tonfa to have some change for once? Why beam sabers all the damn time?"

>but that was because SEED had like a dozen different kinds of beam technology
When it had "technology" at all. We still don't know what exactly do SEED's "beam rifles" actually shoot: Accelerated subatomic particles? Electromagnetic energy (ie. laser, maser, x-ray, gamma)? Plasma?

>>13643751
>a franchise retaining something that distinguishes it from other series in the same genre is "forced tradition"
Fuck off and sudoku yourself /v/

Git Gud and you wont need a shield

>>13641155
But physical shields don't do shit against beam weapons, they can barely resist regular machine guns.

>>13641666
Because the emitter is still a target people can aim at, and beam shields aren't completely invincible.

Unless the carried shield has extra defense that a regular beam shield doesn't, it's really a disadvantage if other people are walking around with two already equipped.

>>13642412
Freedom Gundam actually used it's shield a lot.

>>13641666

The Unicorn actually has one (three after the upgrade), but they only function against particle weapons.

>>13644294
>But physical shields don't do shit against beam weapons
They tend to tank several shots before breaking, unlike no protection which tanks zero shots before you die.

>>13643751

> Not all units are supposed to be multirole.

Mobile suit combat in Gundam takes place across a very limited range, normally only a couple of miles across even in space. So yes, units should be multi-role, because they are almost certainly going to need to be at some point, even if only occasionally. And when a beam saber only takes up a small amount of space on a suit there's really no reason not to have one. Same for a beam rifle, which doesn't even draw from the suit's power in many cases and just needs a mount on the unit somewhere along with e-pacs or whatever.

> It's because it's a fucking forced tradition for Gundam

So what? It's still a good idea that gives the unit a good deal of versatility.

> if the idea of always having those three systems in every mecha is so "versatile and useful", then why don't we see it outside of Gundam with more frequency

So what does it say that after it was introduced in Frontier it's being kept in Delta, where the VF-31 has small shields on the arms (as well as the energy shielding), tonfa guns and a larger rifle among whatever other weapon it has? Also, just because other shows don't use it doesn't mean it isn't a solid, versatile load out. How about telling me why it isn't a solid versatile set of base weapons if you think it's such a bad idea?

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>designs that put missiles, weapons, thrusters filled with fuel inside the shields

Kinda defeating the purpose of a shield when it would blow up it you managed to get it hit.

>>13645338
>Same for a beam rifle, which doesn't even draw from the suit's power in many cases and just needs a mount on the unit somewhere along with e-pacs or whatever.
Except Buster is CE so it does, massively. (Actually the ZAKU and Hyperion beam rifles are the only weapons in Gundam period I can think of that actually don't, UC just has separated ammo and energy requirements.)

Even the Strike has those solid bladed knives in its base form as a 0 energy backup and only mounts normal beam sabers on its dedicated multi-role pack.

As far as Buster goes I guess it's as well off bludgeoning them to death as anything if they get past the shotgun.

>>13645346
the GP02 was the worst with that idea; it just starts overheating and cooking itself when the shield is damaged.

>>13641155
>not designing your mech well enough to protect the pilot without the need for a big bulky shield that will encumber you and limit the usefulness of one arm

Tower shield >medium shield with weapon>short square shield >buckler >no shield >>>>>>>>>energy shield

>>13645490
How does it feel to be wrong?

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>>13645495
feels pretty good knowing the Geara Doga has the tightest shield imaginable

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I like shields that expand.

Have there been mobile suits with extra arms for the purpose of wielding shields?

>>13645483

The cooling mechanism in the GP02's shield isn't for the suit itself, it's supposed to cool the suit when a blastwave from a nuke hits it.

>>13645607
Thunderbolt suits have.

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>>13645338
>because they are almost certainly going to need to be at some point, even if only occasionally
That's the same thought that packs Rangers (supposedly light infantry) with 100 lb of equipment.

>Same for a beam rifle, which doesn't even draw from the suit's power in many cases
Not always applies. In many cases, weapons' power is fed from the reactor. External batteries appear in UC, limited CE cases and the Twin Buster Rifle in AC.

>So what does it say that after it was introduced in Frontier it's being kept in Delta
That Kawamori is rethreading on the success of Frontier?

>So what? It's still a good idea that gives the unit a good deal of versatility
>Also, just because other shows don't use it doesn't mean it isn't a solid, versatile load out.
There you go, revealing yourself as the most obnoxious kind of (Gundam) fanboy.

Let me explain to you why it's a bad idea. If we disregard Gundam's physics for a second (and even then, it only applies to UC and 00), if you're plan for melee combat, you're doing it wrong. Melee should be a very-last-resort kind of thing. So rare that any weapons for it should be an afterthought. Even in the chaos of urban combat, bayonet attacks are rare.
Unlike a rifle, which only uses power for a small instant (or magazines) beam sabers have to be on for seconds at a time, always fed from the reactor. Trying to do samurai shit with them will only leave you stranded.

So, beam sabers are gone as a "basic" choice. For specialist purposes, maybe, but not as a regular weapon.

Shields are not a bad idea, except for the fact that it will throw you off balance. In warfare, mobility will ALWAYS trump heavily armored units (Balaclava happened because of miscomunication).

If mecha are infantry, then arming each and every one with the same weapons allows your enemy to plot around that. Squadrons should have long-range (sniper rifle), demolition (bazooka) and suppressive fire (rifle with a high rate of fire)

>>13645483
The ms itself is fine if it loses the shield. The shields cooling system is to protect the MS from the heat of the nuke, not general overheating. Gato got all pissy when it got damaged because it means he can't use the nuke without dying if they can't fix it.

>>13646330
>always fed from the reactor. Trying to do samurai shit with them will only leave you stranded.
There's maybe a handful of suits that have beam sabers fed from their reactors. Beam sabers carry their own power and are recharged from their racks.

>>13646330
You're the worst kind of /k/-nigger that has no idea what you're talking about.

>External batteries appear in UC
No. Mega particle cannons are straight reactor powered for both their ammo and power, all beam rifles carry a magazine with high energy mega particles and use a relatively small amount of reactor power to fire. They're just replaceable in later series.

>If we disregard Gundam's physics for a second (and even then, it only applies to UC and 00)
Because CE doesn't have the same circumstances as UC and PD doesn't have a similar armour situation to AD or anything

>beam sabers have to be on for seconds at a time
Not unless you're clashing for seconds at a time, UC shows them being shut off between attacks all the time.

>always fed from the reactor
Similar to the rifles, they only require a partial amount of energy to be triggered most of the time, although the MS itself refills the particle supply either from the storage racks or if needed the hands.

>>13646330
>>13646420
>So, beam sabers are gone as a "basic" choice. For specialist purposes, maybe, but not as a regular weapon.
They're a fucking army knife that happens to extend to long sword length.

>Shields are not a bad idea, except for the fact that it will throw you off balance
Shit we better get rid of rifles because they make MS right side heavy when you don't have a shield!

>mobility will ALWAYS trump heavily armored units
The idea of the shields is more or less that you can either go for main body armour or a movable shield that concentrates that degree of armour in one place for the same weight. Neither is an option as well like the Hyaku Shiki but that requires a degree of faith in the pilot that "kid stumbles into Gundam and doesn't die" doesn't really allow for.

>Squadrons should have long-range (sniper rifle), demolition (bazooka) and suppressive fire (rifle with a high rate of fire)
Or
>sniper (beam rifle)
>demolition (beam rifle)
>suppressive fire (beam rifle)

Anyways if you wanted to be "realistic" with Gundams fairly fucking unrealistic technology everyone once the reactor technology is like mid-Zeta level would be carrying beam rifles with emitter bayonets and using beam shields and basically fuck everything else except for camera guided missiles.

Gundam style beam weapons are just stupidly powerful weapons for their size and weight.


Basically the major reason you don't carry around bullet proof shields is you can't shoulder fire a rifle properly at the same time so it's far more dangerous to get close enough you can shoot someone while using one, but with low recoil beam weapons that can be treated like a pistol that goes out the window and the shields are useful if they can provide a meaningful level of beam defense, which sometimes they do depending how the director felt that week. The later OVA/game/manga etc. shit with one handing MGs all the time is pretty retarded. (notice in 0080 the MG carrying GMs don't actually use shields)

>>13641657
THE FEDDIES WOULD NEVER EXPECT A Z'GOK IN SPACE
THE PERFECT AMBUSH

>>13646433
>They're a fucking army knife that happens to extend to long sword length...
...and eats your battery in the process.

>Shit we better get rid of rifles because they make MS right side heavy when you don't have a shield!
You seriously can't compare the weight of a rifle with a fucking slab of armor.

>demolition (beam rifle)
If rifles are so good at the demo role, then why are bazookas still a common weapon? Or grenade launchers?
The VF FAST Packs fill this role: missile launchers and/or heavy particle cannons.

Your obsession with keeping the exact same loadout is fucking obnoxious.

>nerds getting in long-winded arguments about totally fictional weaponry that are only limited by whatever the writer feels like

I'll never understand this.

>>13646610
>You seriously can't compare the weight of a rifle with a fucking slab of armor.
What do you think rifles are made out of, paper mache?

>why are bazookas still a common weapon?
They aren't. The original Gundam uses one occasionally because its beam rifle has fuck all for ammo, the Mk.II uses one like twice, once for underwater and the second time to fire spray ammunition to try to fuck up Asshimar's cameras. Besides Nu firing rockets out of its ass Rick Dias is basically the only post-OYW MS to use one to a significant extent.

>Your obsession with keeping the exact same loadout is fucking obnoxious.
Not even that guy fucking retard.

>>13646330

> That's the same thought that packs Rangers (supposedly light infantry) with 100 lb of equipment.

If the real army are doing something similar then it's probably because they too think it's a good idea.

> In many cases, weapons power is fed from the reactor

Most mobile suits don't have to worry about reactor running out ever. SEED is maybe the sole example in the franchise, and that was for the sake of drama rather than any kind of sci-fi stuff. Which is putting aside that Gundam's reactor output numbers are hilariously terrible. The Turn-A has a reactor output of 27, 000kw - which is minuscule and a modern day plane produces several times the output of comfortably. Even adding weapons that produce a draw on the reactor some of the time they're in use probably isn't going to tax them terribly in most cases, especially if those weapons aren't used simultaneously.

> That Kawamori is retreading his success from Frontier?

Or that he thought those kinds of balanced basic loadouts were a good idea. Or, given that he sees Macross as a future history, he's trying to build a sense of design continuity via keeping what works in universe. And so on.

> revealing yourself as the most obnoxious kind of (Gundam) fanboy

You're being pretty obnoxious yourself.

>>13646719

> if you plan for melee combat, you're doing it wrong.

In the real world, where guns are actually effective: sure. Gundam isn't the real world though. And melee is often a far more effective means of combat for not just main characters but a lot of the time, the grunts in Gundam too. Hence why Zakus were kicking balls around the place in 0079 and why GMs had beam sabers. The entire setting for Gundam is designed around forcing combat in to close combat - not just in UC, but as a whole. So giving unit some kind of half decent melee weapon is going to be a pretty good idea given that combat is forced within those confines by design.

> Shields are not a bad idea, except for the fact that it will throw you off balance

Probably not as much when you're in a giant robot.

> If mecha are infantry.

They're not though, they're giant robots and a mix of planes, tanks and infantry in the case of Gundam. If you want mecha infantry then you're looking at the wrong franchise.

>>13646666
Same here Super Satan.

>>13646719
>If the real army are doing something similar then it's probably because they too think it's a good idea.
http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20110214/NEWS/102140308/Report-Combat-soldiers-carry-too-much-weight

>Or that he thought those kinds of balanced basic loadouts were a good idea.
Then why are melee weapons a recent development in Macross? Why didn't he add them when the Valkyries were originally developed to fight giants (and did, on the number of instances they fought with Zentradi)?

>You're being pretty obnoxious yourself.
No more than yourself with your incessant insistence.

>The entire setting for Gundam is designed around forcing combat in to close combat - not just in UC, but as a whole. So giving unit some kind of half decent melee weapon is going to be a pretty good idea given that combat is forced within those confines by design.
>The entire setting for Gundam is designed around forcing combat in to close combat - not just in UC, but as a whole.
That's why I said it should be disregarded for the sake of argument. Instead of having melee, focus on getting any advantage on range. Melee should always be your very last choice under all circumstances. Even Ancient Japan understood this and focused their combat in projectiles (arrows and muskets), not swords.

>Probably not as much when you're in a giant robot.
Unless you can anull physics, that's bullshit.

>They're not though, they're giant robots and a mix of planes, tanks and infantry in the case of Gundam.
Wrong. They're giant infantry. That's why they're called "mobile suits".

>>13641590
>Bernie was just low on burger fuel by the end of his raid.
But Bernie never piloted the Kampfer. The Kampfer's pilot was Misha.