"EVERYONE STOP FIGHTING" Proceeds to kill everyone

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>>13630793

>>13630793
Reminder that if you're in a ship you're not human and Jesus Yamato will send you straight to hell

>>13630793
You've stopped fighting if you're dead.

>>13630820

Kamille was such a fucking Mary Sue.

>>13630820
I rate kamille for not taking shit from anybody
Chat shit get banged

>>13630860

Say nuttin, Kira is my G.

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>>13630820
Jerid & Paptimus were the actual main characters.

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>>13630793
I think you're confusing "peace" with "quiet".
Kira was willing to kill everyone who was participating in a needless battle if that was what it took to end the battle. He's not a hypocrite, he's just got the balls to kill everyone that's too obstinate to stop fighting. It would only be hypocricy if he attacked a non-combatant, which he never does. What Kira is doing is declaring "this battle ends RIGHT NOW."
If people stop fighting, they live. If people keep fighting, Kira ends the battle the *other* way. Either way, the conflict is over by the time Kira is done with his work.

>>13630860
>not taking shit from anybody
Except Wong!

>>13631206
Wong was brutal, he just jumps out of a car and fucking pimp smacks him right to the ground followed by rib kicks. Wong is best pilot for Gundam.

>>13630820
To be fair, Sarah was trying to bomb a fucking city.

But yeah, him saying violence isn't the right thing after he got booty-blasted by Wong was kind of weird. He wouldn't have said that shit if Wong went down in one hit.

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this bastard.
>Spends 2 damn seasons
>to become a human
>last 15 minutes of season 2/movie
>robot man again

Kira never said he wouldn't kill anyone, but he would like to avoid killing if possible. He is willing to kill others if it is required to protect something, or to accomplish a goal however

>>13631272
>He is willing to kill others if it is required to protect something, or to accomplish a goal however
So, he uses deadly violence in pursuit of his personal objectives, without anything or anyone he'll answer to, except his own will.

That reminds me of something...

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>>13631187
>Kira was willing to kill everyone who was participating in a needless battle if that was what it took to end the battle.
>He's not a hypocrite, he's just got the balls to kill everyone that's too obstinate to stop fighting.
So, he cares about the battle itself stopping and not the people who are actually fighting, as if they didn't have any "agency" on their own. And I don't think I need to mention how utterly contradictory is this. And who says the battle is "needless"? Only himself.

What is he fighting for? And yes, this is a legitimate question I'm asking the people here.

>Either way, the conflict is over by the time Kira is done with his work.
Meaning, everything I've been saying for years is correct: Kira is a self-righteous douchebag.

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>>13630793
Literally Celestial Being lmao

>>13631243
But becoming a robomeister was how he saved his own life. Not his fault Ribbons plugged him through the skull. Besides, his journey from robot to human was an emotional, not physical one.

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>>13631340
Except Celestial Being (and the rest of the world powers, by the way) acknowledges its own hypocrisy of "ending war through war".

That never happens with Kira... except in videogames that make Fukuda angry.

>>13631352
Will someone translate these games already?

>>13630851
He a fuckup that no one except for Fa likes
That's the opposite of a Mary Sue

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>I have no time to argue which of us is the bigger hypocrite.

Pick one.

>>13631337
>What is he fighting for?
To keep humanity from destroying itself because the leaders on all sides are psychos?

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>>13631396
>To keep humanity from destroying itself because the leaders on all sides are psychos?
Wrong. When he made the decision of returning to Earth, he did not know about either side's plans. All he had were a handful of personal tragedies and the news on the attack on Alaska (a legitimate military target, attacked by ZAFT with conventional weapons).
Even his appearance to save the Archangel was kinda dumb in the larger context, since he did not know about the EA's Cyclops: in a "pretty amusing coincidence", Murrue was the one who told him.

>>13631187
I think the issue is that Kira fights so that the battle ends on his terms, and his alone.

I mean, it's great that he shows up to shoot at Destroy Gundam, but when you start disabling the guns of a ship that got jumped by a nation of people you wanted to protect who are now shooting at everyone, it makes it kind of testy.

Also, it's not going to stop Orb from fighting, they're just going to repair their guns and get back to fighting. If all you have to do is replace equipment, then wars go on for longer than if people just die.

It's the sad reality of war.

The problem with Kira is that things always conveniently fall in place so he can keep doing what he's doing, nobody has to get their hands bloody and shifty actions and bad plans are rewarded
I mean, think about it
-What if Orb had just gotten it's pilots reassigned to other parts of the EA, or absorbed entirely? What if Orb pilots are asked to pilot EA mobile suits? What would they have done then? Shouldn't they be trying to do something about Orb's leadership? Or a plan for how to get them from under the EA in the first place?

Blowing up their guns won't exactly let them off the hook. They're going to have to have a lot more damage done, which is what the Minerva did.

-Why is Lacus going out in public and stealing Meer's shuttle, and letting Durandal know she's still alive? It would have at least been unconfirmed if she disappeared quietly during that assassination attempt. What if Durandal had given Meer some sort of security card or something, and then Lacus should be "detained" if she can't show it? She could have been walking right into a trap, shit, Meer could have gotten there on time.
Not to say run and hide from ZAFT, why play your hand so openly and let everyone in ZAFT know that you'll be gunning for them?

>>13631441
>Shouldn't they be trying to do something about Orb's leadership? Or a plan for how to get them from under the EA in the first place?
If the series had a lick of common sense to it, Kira and his coop of brainwashed hens would've helped the loyal commanders in Orb mount a coup to oust the Seirans from power...

...which is what happened eventually, but too late to be of any difference, since ZAFT had already started attacking Orb's homeland and Djibril had managed to escape in their shuttle.

>>13631441
-How convenient is it that Gilbert burned down his lab, but his notes about the Destiny Plan just so happened to survive the fire exactly as he was going to do it. What if it was just something stupid he thought of in college and gave up on it? It sure is great that he decided that's what up now.
This is a literal example of "hey, is that the script?"

-Gilbert dies anyway, but not because Kira shoots him, but because Rey shoots him. Thankfully, Kira managed to convince Rey that he was living his life wrong in those scant few moments, managed to drag his ruined Gundam back to the base and found Gilbert on his throne waiting for Kira to rant at him. What if Rey didn't make it out? Or not make it there in time? Would Kira have shot him? Or would he have taken him prisoner.

What if Gilbert didn't die? Would ZAFT have just kicked him out of office? Everyone was in on it with him on that scheme, so who takes the blame? Nobody knows about the whole Meer/Lacus thing, just that there appears to be two Lacuses Is there going to be a war tribunal? Is there going to be a Lacus for Chairman election?

At the end of Zeta Gundam, nobody knows what's going on, or what to do, and Neo Zeon rears it's ugly head and starts moving in like it owns the place, and they almost get away with it because everyone's fucking exhausted about the last fight.
In CE, Lacus is just the new leader of ZAFT. How? Why? It doesn't matter. It comes off like a military take over, especially since we see that ZAFT was all in on the Blast Orb to Nothing scheme. What happened?
Nobody has to do or think about these things, because all of the cards just fall in the right place anyway. And that's what's wrong with these characters.

>>13631441
For all we blast him about it, Kira really sucks at the whole UNDERSTANDING thing. Hell, in the end he's fighting alongside the goddamn DOM Troopers. You know, the guys who say you're messed up if you don't agree with Lacus.

There's actually this symmetry between Kira and Shinn's growth throughout Destiny. At first, Kira isn't sure what to do and is kinda going through the motions.He may have joined Durandal is the assassination attempt didn't happen and despite how much of a self-righteous dick he was when he met up with Athrun, Athrun's words did begin to make him question what he was doing.

Then, Kira's behavior gets worse. He stops listening to Athrun and rips apart the Savior because Cagalli was crying. Hell, he cut the Savior apart in the sky. What would have happened if Athrun had ended up falling onto rocks, or fell from great enough height to sustain major injuries from hitting the water? The losses of the ORB forces and a girl's tears drive Kira into such a frenzy that he does that to his BEST FRIEND, while the show is trying to present Shinn as a vicious attack dog and wrong for shooting Athrun down later on.

He survives Angel Down, gets a more powerful Mobile Suit and gets a major promotion. Same thing happens to Shinn. Both of their self-righteous delusions go through the roof at this time as the both ignore the bigger picture. Shinn has Rey pushing him to obey blindly, Kira has the DOMS.

Really, it works in a way. The show has a message about questioning your leaders and not blindly following orders, and this is an extension of that. Remember, this is the same show that has Kira and Co looking heroic in pretty dresses while Shinn and Co stand in front of Auschwitz. We're supposed to question Kira and Lacus, not believe they are heroes without question despite how the lighting, the music and the narrative makes them out to be paragons.

At least, that's what I'd like to believe. Considering Fukuda, this was no doubt unintentional.

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>>13632125
>Both of their self-righteous delusions go through the roof at this time as the both ignore the bigger picture.
At that moment, the biggest priority for both of them was stopping Djibril. Did any of them made a lick of effort to do so before it was too late? Of course they fucking didn't.

Couldn't Kira and the Archangel just say "all right, guys, Djibril was the guy who unleashed the Destroy in Germany and brainwashed our good friend Mwu. Let's stop him FIRST, and then deal with Durandal"?
Of course not, because Destiny is fucking stupid and tries to make us believe that Durandal is the most dangerous villain, when the show was showing the complete opposite at that point.

>>13632160
That's why I say it's unintentional. I'd like to believe it's something along the lines of both of them being the same under the surface, but at best it means to be Goofus & Gallant.

>>13631243

It was emotional growth, and not being a stuck up asshat like Ribbions who's obsessed with being superior and ruling everyone, instead that he could identify and empathize with humanity.

But he himself mentions he's lucky to be an Innovade as otherwise he'd been dead twice over.

>>13631441
>If all you have to do is replace equipment, then wars go on for longer than if people just die.

That was Kira's point. If people just need new weapons that's less people dying in the war than if they're all killed and replaced with new soldiers who will be out for enemy blood because they're mad their buddies died.

This makes sense in Seed, where the war at that point was just senseless killing everyone on both sides mad at the losses they took and were out for blood. Makes less sense in Destiny, although you could argue he's trying to keep things from flareing up to Seed level rage again.

>Why is Lacus going out in public and stealing Meer's shuttle, and letting Durandal know she's still alive?

Well she had to get into space somehow, and it would have been alot easier and bloodless to trick Zaft into thinking she was Meer and sneaking off with her shuttle before they could do anything. The other options would be to take over a Zaft or EA base by force and get a shuttle that way, or sneak back to Orb and take over Morgenrote and use their Mass Driver, both of which would be very hard to pull off with AA and Freedom alone.

>>13631337
>everything I've been saying for years is correct
No, John...YOU are the self-righteous douchebag
>before Kira, there is a battle where one side is going to kill everyone on the other side
>both EF and ZAFT were shown slaughtering people who tried to surrender
>after Kira the battle is over with survivors on both sides
>all you have to do to survive a battle against Kira is stop fighting, it doesn't matter which side you're on

>>13632160

Since Fukuda and Morosawa had no intention of Kira and co stopping Djbril (because that was the one victory they were gonna give Zaft) they had them stay out of it.

They didn't realize how dickish this makes them look though, since all that was in there head was "So Djbril's gonna die next ep thanks to Minerva, so no reason to have Kira worry about it. We needed to hype their fight with Durandal instead which is gonna be the final showdown."

Someone must have pointed this out because the very next ep there's a quick scene where Kira and Athrun are doing a damage assement of AA and conclude it can't go up into space in time to hit Djbril so they'll have to let Zaft deal with them and hope they take him out. But the damage was already done.

>>13632358
What you're saying is that people shouldn't fight for any reason whatsoever and Kira is the one setting the rules for everyone. As I said before, why does Kira alone decide that you shouldn't be fighting? This is self-righteousness of the highest caliber.

Also, it's pretty convenient for him that the war took a war for the mass slaughter on both sides. Imagine if one of the sides was Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, religious extremists or a Mongol horde. Would then it still be correct for him to intervene and stop both sides from fighting?

>before Kira, there is a battle where one side is going to kill everyone on the other side
>both EF and ZAFT were shown slaughtering people who tried to surrender
Wrong again. Apart from Bloody Valentine, the more "genocidical" phase of the war wasn't there at all: it was a standard war with two sides shooting each other. He didn't even know about freaking Cyclops when he took the Freedom to Earth, nor that the Archangel was going to be trapped in the explosion, setting them right for defection.
What if Kira arrived before Mwu did, and Murrue and the crew wanted to stay loyal to the Earth Alliance, like they did when they fought alongside the 7th fleet?

>>13631387

Suzaku

Lelouch was literally just a deranged fucking brat who only cared about his crippled sister, he never said otherwise.

Suzaku on the other hand was just a fucking walking contradiction. And his reasoning for joining the Britannian Empire was just fundamentally flawed.

>>13631240
That's the point though, in the start Kamille tries to constantly get out of responsability (resulting in i am an autistic child)

>>13631352
>>13631373
It's almost been 10 years since this game came out. You should know by now that entire arc relied on people being fed misinformation by a 3rd party.

In addition to the above, the other half of the cast sided with Kira (read, people like Roger Smith and Garrod) during the Shinn vs Kira event.

Also, Fukuda was mad about something else. It wasn't this game in question.

>>13631387
Suzaku is the real faggot, at least Lelouch admited that his plan was fucking insane and so was he and he had no delusion about half the world hating his gut while Suzaku kept spouting bullshit because of his dead waifu, he deserved that fate of having his real self die and having to become the man he blamed for most of his own fuck ups

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>>13633262
>Rodger Smith siding with Kira

...The fuck?

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>>13631187
> It would only be hypocrisy if he attacked a non-combatant
> attacked a non-combatant
> non-combatant
> which he never does

so, you're saying he's not a hypocrite now, eh?

CHECKMATE, FAGGOT.

>>13633432
eh uh, THE SHIP WAS EMPTY!

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>>13633433
why would someone slash a ship when it's empty, huh?

DOUBLE CHECKMATE!

>>13633447
maybe it was on full auto still firing!
oh who I'm kidding, its like he went "fuck it, just kill these guys, what a bother to disable the ship completely like other suits"

>>13633447
Because it's cool.

>>13633449
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEpGCfiWdVg
The only thing he seems to avoid hitting is the bridge. How many mechanics and engineers did he kill in this scene?

>>13633291
Through the magic of photoshop they showed the two halves of ZEUTH, one being a bunch of hippies and people who don't like the military, vs well basically the military plus Gravion and Zambot, that the other side was doing a bunch of reprehensible bullshit. Plus Shinn's side was already mad at Kira for the incident with Stella.

>>13633913
In that particular scenario, Zeuth is trying to protect the Extended lab from the EA, Titans and ORB so that they can show the world what those groups have been doing. There's even a bomber on the war to blow that place up. Kira shows up shooting at everyone regardless of sides. Kira doesn't care why people are fighting, he just wants them to stop.

They also point out how that by doing this, Kira is actively making the battle worse. He's leaving soldiers on the battlefield defenseless as he disables their weapons and thrusters. They've actually suffered loss because of Kira disabling TM Revolution, who was unable to defend or evade when Gym's faction launched a surprise attack in a previous scenario. They're mad at Kira because Kira ignores such consequences of his actions, acting like his hands are clean because he didn't personally kill those soldiers.

Fucking Loran says that Kira doesn't understand the weight of taking someone's life. Pacifist bitchslap. And everyone is disgusted when Kira destroys the Savior, trashing someone THEY FREAKING KNOW is Kira's best friend.

They view Kira as a self-righteous asshole because of how they've seen Kira act. Sure, they say his heart is in the right place but they don't excuse his actions because of that. And when Kira and Co. do join up with Zeuth, he apologizes for how he acted and admits he was ignoring the harsher truths about what he was doing. They give Kira a freaking character arc around that, with him admitting fault.

Not to mention when Durandal turned, they didn't just welcome him with open arms. People were still mad at him and if it wasn't for the character growth he went through as well as admitting to being a shithead, they would have still had a problem with him.

That is your context.

>>13634132
>And when Kira and Co. do join up with Zeuth, he apologizes for how he acted and admits he was ignoring the harsher truths about what he was doing. They give Kira a freaking character arc around that, with him admitting fault.
Does that happen with Lacus as well?

Forgive me beforehand for what I'm about to say, but I detest everything about Kira's character. If it were up to me, I'd go full Shadowcell and slaughter everyone from the CE

>>13633171
>"Sorry, Lelouch, I can't do that. It's against my moral barometer."
>"YOU'RE MORAL BAROMETER IS A FUCKING ROULETTE WHEEL."

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Updated.

You're welcome.

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>>13634132
>They view Kira as a self-righteous asshole because of how they've seen Kira act. Sure, they say his heart is in the right place but they don't excuse his actions because of that.
>They're mad at Kira because Kira ignores such consequences of his actions, acting like his hands are clean because he didn't personally kill those soldiers.
This is precisely the problem with Kira's character, right then and there. It's all pretty convenient for him that the people he's disabling are from two sides on the path to self-destruction. What if the "others" do have a reason for fighting and, yes, perhaps dying? Doesn't he care about that, or does that whole bullshit about "fighting with the strength and your feelings" doesn't apply to anyone except himself and the brainwashed retards of the Archangel?

I ask you, >>13632358/>>13631187, in all sincerity: are you for real in your defense of Kira's actions, or trolling?

>>13634132
>>13634231

Kira was actually quite helpful to the guys on Rand's side of Zeuth since they really didn't care too much about the military in general and he bailed them out from a couple of sticky situations like in that one E7 stage.

>>13633291
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/945859-super-robot-taisen-z/faqs/56423

>>13634231
>fanfiction by a video game writer
>valid
nok klek

>>13634598
They're correct though. All Kira does is draw out battles by nullifying a decisive advantage for one side. A clean, decisive battle is going to be less disastrous than one where neither side has a strict advantage and continue fighting to the last man. The only thing Kira should be doing is preventing the execution of POW or defending rescue ships.

>>13631352
>>13634231
>fucking fanfiction is better written than the actual show

Jesus fucking Christ that's sad

>>13634270
>What if the "others" do have a reason for fighting and, yes, perhaps dying?

Seeing as that never happens in CE we don't know.

>>13634658
This would be true if the wars in CE were wars of conquest, which they are not. They're consistently portrayed as wars of genocide. Living conditions on the PLANTs are excellent, and no Coordinators ever express a yearning to live on Earth, nor does any Natural ever show a desire to live in space. The Naturals consider the Coordinators to literally be space monsters, at best you can argue the Coordinators maybe don't want to exterminate all the Naturals. That only means Kira should be supporting ZAFT if you think he should be helping one side win. If both sides will kill every man, woman and child of the other faction, Kira is absolutely saving lives with his strategy.

The core problem you have to address is the setting that validates Kira's actions with the sheer extremes to which both sides will go. The actioms themselves are only symptoms.

>>13634761
>Seeing as that never happens in CE we don't know.

> Kira: "You trying to get yourselves killed? In a place like this? There's no reason for any of you..."
> Cagalli: "That's the last straw, you heartless moron. Look (points to dead body)! They fought desperately. We're all fighting desperately. All so we can protect the things and people that are so important to us."
> Kira: (Slaps Cagalli) "What the hell can you protect when your feelings are the only weapons you've got?"

And note: Kira said this to people who just lost comrades trying to retake their homeland from ZAFT.

Sorry about using the English dub, but I had the dub in my bookmarks. Matt Hill makes Kira sound less like an idiot at times.

>>13634132
>Not to mention when Durandal turned, they didn't just welcome him with open arms. People were still mad at him and if it wasn't for the character growth he went through as well as admitting to being a shithead, they would have still had a problem with him.

Which is honestly dumb since they're still holding a grudge over him being a minor annoyance that accidentally got one guy killed, months ago even though they've welcomed worse by then, and forgave a grudge match with half their team and he'd since proved they were doing the dirty work of an evil overlord and was correct not to want to work for him. And they still give him shit, while the team who's lived he saved don't try to defend him in any way.

The only reason this happens is that the Z1 writers really had it out for Kira.

>>13634658

How...does more people getting shot down extend the battle?

>>13634839

Take the Crete battles.

On one hand the fight would have quickly and swifty wrapped up with no casualties for minerva if Kira just let them Tanhauser the crap out of the fleet and Shinn mop up the survivors. And then it would have over for better or worse, Orb would have been out of the war.

On the other hand his interfereance saved thousands of EA and Orb lives, at the cost of Heine and few Minerva crewman, and the battle continued at a later date.

So it comes down to if it's better or worse to just accept that people are gonna die and let the battle be bloody but swift, or dragged out but you save a few people that wouldn't have died otherwise.

>>13634814
Kira does have a point there though. Especially since this was coming shortly after the part where he failed to protect a shuttle full of people from dying and a little while before that, he failed to protect Fllay's dad.

>>13634839
Mobile Suits can be repaired and replaced a lot more easily than soldiers can, and even if they run out there's other ways to fight. I'd love to see Kira try to handle a Bikini assault squad.

It's the same thing Asemu did in AGE 3. Neither side gains an advantage, rendering the conflict a stalemate. Instead of one battle that can decisively end things or turn the battle in someone's favor, nothing happens and they'll just go at it again and again. If Kira is really persistent, they'll eventually resort to using more drastic measures in order to win.

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>>13630793
No seriously am I supposed to root for this asshole.
Because it really seems like he makes everything worse just by being there.
Because really if he wasn't there Stella would've lived

>>13632358
We only saw ZAFT forces slaughtering people who tried to surrender long after Kira had turned their war into a stalemate and allowed the EF to have enough time for their enforced unwitting suicide bombing 2.0, electric boogaloo. Hell Patrick "kill them all" Zala would still be playing second fiddle to Siegel "no genocide" Clyne if Kira hadn't stopped Zaft from taking the Strike and held up their 4 gundams from trashing the EF for however many months it was.

>>13634860
ORB wouldn't have been out of the battle, anymore then they were after the battle wrapped up the way it did. That same ship went down anyway.

>>13634839
>losing side realizes a huge disadvantage
>beats a hasty retreat to reduce losses

>losing side suddenly finds advantage because some guy swooped in and shot down a bunch of enemies and caused a commotion
>no one is sure who's side he's on but sometimes it looks like theirs
>continue fighting

And indecisive battles will probably mean future battles in the same region.

>>13634808 has a point though. The factions seem to be crazed for blood in CE.

>>13634892
Except...theres no evidence that that was ever the case. He shot down both sides equally, the side retreating would have just as soon been shot down trying to reenter battle.

>>13634761
Not letting yourself be genocided is a pretty good reason for that, and that's both sides at various points in the series.

>>13634882
>Because really if he wasn't there Stella would've lived

She wouldn't have. He just gave a face to blame for her death. But really she wouldn't have lasted even if Shinn pulled her out, both because EA wouldn't keep her alive anymore, and because Zaft would want her blood for Berlin.

In fact had Kira just stayed his his hideyhole and never made a move until Durandal started his Destiny Plan nonsense, Stella likely would have died at Crete, with Shinn none the wiser that she was ever a soldier at all. Which probably would have been for the best for his mental health thinking about it.

Really though there is no likely scenario in CE as it was established where Stella wasn't going to die young.

>>13634741
Don't forget SRW also changed the Destiny Plan into the best plan ever.

>>13634957
I know I'm just really pissed at this show.
I mean seriously what the fuck happened?
Why did Fukuda and Morosawa perform character assassination on poor Cagalli?

>>13634958
Explain.

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>>13634977
In SC2 they changed the Destiny Plan to Durandal cloning Scirocco and giving them the Macross.

>>13634220

>"I WANT TO CHANGE THE EMPIRE FROM WITHIN!"

Proceeds to kill countless Japanese, (Oh sorry! elevens..)

Just fuck Suzaku

>>13634984
What kind of plan is that? Why Sciroco? Why clones?... Why?

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>>13634970

>I mean seriously what the fuck happened?

> They rushed out a sequel to a hit show with things just roughly plotted out.
> For some reason, Morosawa takes over scriptwriting duties and quickly falls behind due to her inexperience.
> There was actually a divide in the fanbase over SEED. It brought in a lot of new fans who loved the show and Kira and Lacus, but at the same time older fans wrote it off as childish crap. Due to this, early ads for the show promised Destiny would be a more mature, serious affair.
> The previous is despite the fact that Fukuda has said he made SEED to be more like 70's super robot shows (which he refers to as Gundam's roots) and values anime being entertaining over all else. Sunrise reigns him in from making such comments.
> Bandai no doubt pushes for a new MC in order to make Destiny accessable to new audiences.
> Morosawa has trouble writing the three protagonists, with Shinn being the hardest. With Kira being a bland hero and Athrun going through his arc from SEED again, I wonder why.
> As scripts come in late and production falls behind schedule, the crew starts getting pissed at Morosawa and Fukuda for defending her. There are also rumors about how unprofessional they acted during this time, from bringing their marital problems into the office to acting like rockstars.
> Reports of merchandise not selling stretch back to when the show was airing. While the music and DVDs sold, the evidence points to gunpla not selling. Toys made up 60% of SEED's sales that first year.
> Shinn failing to go over well with the SEED crowd, though he does have his fans. But the fact of the matter is Shinn was less popular than Kira.
> Somewhere along the line, Fukuda decides to make Kira the hero again. In later interviews, he mentions he can't remember why. Fans feel Kira stole the show
> Destiny Plan is pulled out of nowhere.
> Production is way behind at this point. Clip shows and reused SEED footage ensue.

>>13630793
as usual Jesus is too alpha for /m/

>>13634984
Truly, the greatest plan in the history of mankind.

>>13634132
>He's leaving soldiers on the battlefield defenseless as he disables their weapons and thrusters.
I'm surprised I've never heard someone bring this up before.
What's stopping whatever soldier from killing the guys Kira disarms?

>>13634984
Holy fuck, that's hilarious.
I can only imagine the Scirocco clones fighting amongst each other due to their egos.

Asemu made more sense than Kira and the guy was doing the same thing

>>13635251

No he really didn't. Kira was trying to stop both sides from Genociding each other. Asemu whole heartedly agreed that the Vagan's were the bad guys and needed to be stopped, but he still thought it was better to keep the war stalled for some reason.

>>13635181
Nothing really. And not only that, Kira's been shown to cut the thrusters off when the unit is in flight! Most of the time, the pilot crashes into the water but in the case of Neo's Windam, he fell to the ground below. Does anyone have a clip or gif of the landing?

>>13634500
Well, that's just the thing, he's helpful to those guys, but is quite a nusience to the other gang.

If you're interested, someone's doing a Let's Play of it on SA, with a lot of the quips translated
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=438840708
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=439201647
>>13633262
I thought he was upset with people basically rewriting the story, like SRW L did?

>>13635396
>I thought he was upset with people basically rewriting the story, like SRW L did?

> To be honest, I'm not very happy. The original story is complete as it is, so it's outrageous to add or modify the images and script. However, games are a different media so I think it's fine. The thing I hate most about the games are that even though they use the name (Gundam SEED Destiny), the contents are totally no good... There are many people who think that way, and there are many staff members who work really hard on making (these games), so I don't object. However, spare me from the people who come and go "Director, you're happy too aren't you?" — Mitsuo Fukuda

People were going to Fukuda about how Z fixed Destiny's storyline and asked if he was happy too, I believe.

>>13635414
Fukada's tears are the best

>>13633865

About as many as he normally would when he shoots out the engines on other ships.

>>13634957
Well, to be absolutely fair to Kira, she was specifically programmed to freak the fuck out when she saw Freedom Gundam

You know what SEED Destiny needed?

Canard to be Kira's rival character.

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>>13630793
He was 15

He loved to play the piano

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>>13635577
You know what SEED needed in general?
For Lacus to not be a Mary Sue.
>>13635587
Gotcha covered

>>13635529
It's shit like this I love pointing out when people go "Kira's a pacifist. You just want another soldier who kills."

Here's the thing, I don't mind a Gundam protagonist having a supposed "no-kill" policy. But I also want that protagonist to work for it, to bust his ass off every battle to uphold his ideal. And if they really don't believe in violence, then seeking alternative ways to resolve the issue is always a big plus.

The desire not to kill should be treated as a handicap in battle, forcing the pilot to try harder. Killing an opponent should be seen as the tempting easy way to survive, and if they can't live up to their ideals it should weigh on the character.

What I don't want is Aimbot McBeamspam fighting off an army on autopilot.

Can we get some reasons why people legitimately hate Kira?

>>13635599

You can't have flashy heroics that way.

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>>13635615
War isn't about being a hero.

>>13635599

I haven't watched seed or destiny in a long time, but does kira ever actually claim to be a pacifist that will never kill again without exception? He kills on multiple occasions. Some overt, others not as much. Kira definitely avoids unnecessary killing that won't accomplish anything, but I don't remember him actually claiming to be an absolutist. I think he just tries hard because he knows he's skilled enough (or that enemy pilots are unskilled enough) for his strategies to work.

>>13635396
>Four still throws her life away
Goddamn, that's some arbitrary bullshit.

>>13635648
He says he doesn't want to kill. That's about it. Kira will kill if the show decides he doesn't have any other choice, like with the Minerva. But the thing is, as much as he calls fighting pointless it's always his first resort. He never attempts non-violent resolutions, just straight up resorts to terrorism.

>>13635251
Kira looks great compared to both Asem and Kio.

Like, say what you want about Kira, but he kills when he feels like he has to, and when all of his allies continue to kill people, he never once says a single word about it. He never chastises them, he's never disappointed. He's made a personal choice that he's going to keep the casualties he personally causes to a minimum, and others are free to do as they feel they should. His goal is, through his actions, to end the fighting with a minimum of casualties and as quickly as possible.

Kio actively blocks shots from his allies that would have hit Vegan MS. He does not make any such effort to block shots from Vegan MS that would hit his allies. Allies of his die because of his actions and he shows no remorse.

Asem actively seeks to prolong a war, a decision he makes for no reason that is ever provided. In doing so he ensures that more people die and that his father is free to raise his son to think of war as a video game where you kill enemies for points, which is the direct cause of Kio swinging so far to the other side when he realizes that there are people in those MS. Asem does this despite the Vegans being one of the most cartoonishly evil factions in all of Gundam history, a history that includes Gihren Zabi and the Titans.

Kira's not a well-written character by any stretch, but Asem and Kio are on such a different level that he doesn't deserve to be lumped in with them.

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>>13635701
It's the same thing that happens in the series.,
Shit in the movies, she's not even supposed to come back.

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>>13635736
>Kio
Oh, lord.
Don't even.
Don't even get me started on this punk.

>>13635735
>He never attempts non-violent resolutions, just straight up resorts to terrorism.

There really aren't any in the world of CE. It's not like anyone is going to listen to anything anyone else has to say. The only real thing Kira does is keep casualties to a minimum instead of trying to kill as many enemies as he can like most other pilots in the setting.

The closest they attempted was having Cagalli or Lacus try to talk the people they were fighting down, which never works because they don't want to hear it.

>>13635414
I mean, it is better but it is a dick thing to do, going up to a creator and ask if what basically amounts to fanwork, rewriting what you (presumably) put lots of effort into working on, is something that you're happy with.

>>13635735
There's no real reason for you to even try to be a full blown pacifist when almost every nation is cartoonishly crazy.

Lacus tried her peace princess ideal early on in SEED but it failed and we all know about Cagalli's mess in Destiny.

>>13630793
He's a monster.
Worse, he's a hypcritical monster who's ended up costing more lives and deaths and pain then letting the wars continue and only attacking those who would cause the most destruction.

He's not for peace or stopping the war. He's about prolonging the war and masturbating over his own importance. Making himself the masionic figure. A savage war hungry brute who clothes himself in the wool of heroism and pacifisim.

If he comes upon two starving tribes of wolves fighting over a large fat el carcass that could feed both tribes, he'd defang all of the wolves then burn the carcass to ashes.

He'd then lament the fact that he had to do that, because they were fighting.

He's not once tried to create peace by making the necessary sacrifices, by trying to find common ground between both sides, or simply by enforcing law under his own brand of well thought out tyranny.

He's just a monster who got his rocks off on genocide and piety. Indirectly murdering billions to save mere dozens all just to make himself feel good about his murderous impulses.

>>13635735

How would a faction with no political legitimacy use non violence? Someone had to remove gil gil from power. You're not going to convince someone like him to stop peacefully. Most gundam series address this in some capacity: will of people vs will of people in power.

>>13635913

Don't cut yourself on that edge mate.

>>13634861
>Kira does have a point there though.
He doesn't

> Kira: (Slaps Cagalli) "What the hell can you protect when your feelings are the only weapons you've got?"
It's easy for him to say that shit when he's all cozied up in a super-prototype Gundam with impregnable armor and Cagalli and the rebels have RPGs and halftracks.

His logic is that fighting is pointless UNLESS you have sufficient strength. And that's utter crap. Kira is an utter moron who doesn't see the bigger picture. His reason to go back to the battlefield were a bunch of meaningless personal tragedies.

>>13635945

Or that picking a fight with a bunch of guys with mobile suits who are done with you for the moment when all you've got are a bunch of jeeps and RPGs all on your lonesome without asking the MS you're allied with to help, just because of muh honor and feelings, is a stupid idea.

There was no point to that skirmish beyond they hurt them and they wanted to hurt them back, which is stupid. Their lives weren't in danger, as Andy was a realtively benign conqueror, and their punishment for resisting them was to non lethally wreck their town.

>>13635954
>picking a fight with a bunch of guys with mobile suits who are done with you for the moment when all you've got are a bunch of jeeps and RPGs
>without asking the MS you're allied with to help
It's more than Kira's self-righteousness. What does he know about actual danger when his Gundam literally repels enemy fire? Also, asymmetric combat is a thing.

>just because of muh honor and feelings, is a stupid idea.
>There was no point to that skirmish beyond they hurt them and they wanted to hurt them back, which is stupid.
Welcome to Warfare 101, dipshit.

>Andy was a realtively benign conqueror
Key word here is "conqueror", don't forget that.

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Oh shit they're watching Gundam SEED Destiny

So I've been meaning to start this. Do I watch the original airing, or the remaster? I remember hearing people say there were issues with the remaster.

>>13636017
there are issues
there are many issues
of what variety you ask?
the answer to this is unfortunately yes

>>13635968
>Welcome to Warfare 101, dipshit.

Warfare 101 is you want something the enemy has, you win it in battle, you take it, battle over.

Fighting just to avenge to losses is a suckers game that ends like Seed almost did, with both sides in berserker slaughter mode.

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>>13635954
If somebody invades your country you kill them anon. Hell you incinerate the planet with nuclear fire if you have too. Doesn't matter how nice they are.

But as much as I like Cagalli her insurgency was kinda flawed. Blue Cosmos was better at it.

>>13636017
The remaster's visuals are in many places arguably worse. I can't find the image off-hand, but I'm sure someone will post the pic where in the original Kira looks like an angry human and in the remaster he looks like a sad potato.

>>13635968
>Welcome to Warfare 101, dipshit.

Only incompetent generals fight a battle with nothing to gain. You estimate the strength of the enemy's forces and your own, and you use that to calculate your chances of winning. You calculate how much you stand to gain by winning, and subtract how much it will cost you in time, resources, lives. That's your net gain: it doesn't do any good to capture a point and not have any manpower left to hold it. Calculate how much you stand to lose. Multiply how much you stand to lose by the chance you'll lose, and your net gain by the chance you'll win. If you're more likely to gain than to lose, you can fight. If you're not, you shouldn't. Taking a highly risky mission only makes sense if you have everything to gain with nothing to lose, and your life is a big thing to lose. A battle with no chance of success should only be fought if you're going to die even if you try to run. Fighting an opponent that's not posing a threat to you just because you want vengeance, when the battle will almost certainly get some if not all your men killed and has no chance of any material gain, is stupid.

>>13636017
The issues with the remaster is everyone is off model all the time.
Compared to only 75% of the time in the original

>>13635913

This anon fucking gets it.

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>>13636037

Late reply, but here you go.

>>13636304
It just me, or did they end up re-animating Seed and accidentally using his older Destiny model? Because Kira looks way older, and much less angry, on the right.

>>13636311
Nothing intentional about it. They choose to use the Destiny models as the standard.

>>13636340
>timeskip
>characters will still in puberty
>let's just use the adult ones

Would Fukuda be to blame on this one? I mean, this is a pretty significant visual departure and diminishes the visual impact of the timeskip.

>>13636362

I don't think it was ever supposed to show age due to the timeskip (you don't age very much from 17 to 19) and just a change in design that Fukuda thought was an improvement to the original Seed ones.

>>13635994
They're just reliving Shinn's glory.

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Celestial Being couldve ended the war between the Naturals and Coordinators in like 4 episodes flat.

>>13636586
Didn't some side materials mention what was effectively a Naturals vs Coord-er, I mean, Innovators war sometime between UNDERSTANDING and the epilogue of the 00 movie?

IIRC, CB sided with the Innovators, and the Naturals got wrecked hard.

>"EVERYONE LISTEN TO MY SONG"!
>proceeds to use missles in episode 20 or so anyway

Nekkei Basara, this galaxy's biggest hypocrite.

>>13636644
Yes, though a huge difference with 00 is that anyone can become an Innovator at any time, you don't have to be born with the gift like a Coordinator or Newtype. The war there seems mostly to have been to push out some MSVs and to make clear that not everything was going to be solved by understanding. CB never threw down its guns and went yep, no more fighting forever. But it most certainly helped, and while things weren't perfect, they worked out pretty okay.

SEED of course does not have that kind of nuance, and looking at Fukada's body of work it's safe to say he's never been interested in trying.

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>>13635599
> "no-kill" policy
> work for it but it WON'T & NEVER work. because war is a fucking killing business, with ideals & some other agenda included (it's a reality down-to-earth, the core of the core logic that was totally undeniable by ANY logic in the world).
> but still, insist of "no-kill" policy & become a gigantic hypocrite faggot
> don't believe in violence, seeking alternatives to resolve by PLAYING a god's role when war, in the mid & later end.
> desire not to kill should be treated as a handicap in battle, forcing the pilot to try harder.
> in the mean time, many non-combatants & others died, directly & indirectly by his "try harder" method to disable MS & Ships (plenty of the scene to be say). only the real god know what happened to them & the mercy that they get.
> of course it was meant for his survival as well, but still it's a finest & purest hypocrite move & talks by a god wannabe that you'll ever seen in the world.
> can't live up to their ideals it should weigh on the character, but then give NO fucks & continue to be a god, with his fake "kingdom of heaven". & later 'embarking' once more with their fake missionary purpose.
> making a puny game of Aimbot McBeamspam out of war alone, while preaching his fake prophet's faggotry sermon in the battle

there, you did answer yourself why people legitimately hate Kira.

honesty is wonderful, but hypocrisy rots the world.


>>13635414
>>13635501
>>13635776
that really served Fukuda, damn right in his fucking faces.

>>13636227
Yeah no. Cagalli was running a guerrilla war. You make the enemy slowly bleed over years. Doesn't matter if you ever win a battle.

Like in Vietnam were the US won every single engagement. But after 10 years they had enough.

Cagalli is tying down a lot of enemy units that could be used on the frontline.

>>13636017
>So I've been meaning to start this. Do I watch the original airing, or the remaster?
Don't, please. The series is fucking awful. I'm sure there's something else you can use your time in, like some obscure anime from your backlog.

This isn't worth anyone's time for any reason. Not "It's because it's Gundam and I mean to watch the whole franchise". Not "I really want to see for myself how bad it is".

No.

This excrement is not worth anyone's 18 hours of his limited time in this Earth

>>13635773
>>There really aren't any in the world of CE. It's not like anyone is going to listen to anything anyone else has to say.
The setting is a Catch-22, then. Kira resorts to his self-righteous crap (disabling everyone in the battlefield with zero effort in the name of "STOP FIGHTING, EVERYONE!) because the "enemies" won't do anything that isn't genocide.
Pretty convenient!

I always hear that the VAs hated the show as well, does anyone have actual translated interviews on thsi

>>13637637
Shinn's VA: Shinn did not develop like he was originally planned, Shinn was supposed to remain the hero and SRW Z is closer to the original plan.

Kira's: (Regarding Kira taking over as protagonist) It's not my fault.

Athrun's: Does not understand Athrun's motivations or why he keeps switching sides.

Lacus's: Lacus was a very hard role to play because she doesn't act like a normal human being. Meer was more fun.

Luna's: It was hard on all the voice actors.

Andy's: Peeked at Fukuda's copy of the script while recording only to see it was blank.

Cagalli's: Never wants to work with Fukuda or Morosawa again. Some say it extends to voicing the character again too.

>>13637666
I meant full/semi translated interviews with sources. I see this get posted a lot

>>13637666
>Some say it extends to voicing the character again too.

And yet she still voices her.

>>13630820
>violence isn't -> punch people
>promote pacifism -> murder everyone

You fail.

>>13634882
>Because really if he wasn't there Stella would've lived
yeah, and Berling would have been even more fucked
glad he impaled that bitch

>>13635994
so meta

>>13636304
He looks like a sad potato with big blowjob lips.

>>13635776
>t should weigh on the character, but then give NO fucks & continue to be a god, with his fake "kingdom of heaven". & later 'embarking' once more with their fake missionary purpose.
>> making a puny game of Aimbot McBeamspam out of war alone, while preaching his fake prophet's faggotry sermon in the battle
>there, you did answer yourself
I'd feel better if what all that work amounted to wasn't medicore.

As far as I know it's a rumor, but I heard that Anno was ecstatic at the chance of the EVA getting to fight along side Mazinger Z.
Everyone knows there's "something" up with GSD, but nobody ever just comes out and says it.

>>13633171
>And his reasoning for joining the Britannian Empire was just fundamentally flawed.
In what way? He only wanted to improve the lives of the Elevens without any unnecessary bloodshed and it was working.

>>13633283
>and he had no delusion about half the world hating his gut
The hell are you on about?

>Suzaku kept spouting bullshit because of his dead waifu

>hey man sorry I killed yo bitch back there as well as 20k of your people but chill out man c'mon and help me save my sister
Yeah it's totally all his fault.

>>13630793
He's completely right tho

If everyone's dead, there would be no more fighting.

>>13636311
wow. i think you're right.

>>13637666
>soldier boy was supposed to be the hiro
>Kazu-kun does a 360 degree noscope blame dodge because he never wanted to be le heero
>Dino supposedly nuts
>Lacus supposed to represent the will of the people, but Tanaka actually embodies it by liking Mia better
>gunner waifu UNDERSTANDS how universally hated SEED is by both fans and staff
>desert guy leaks that Fukuda was batshit crazy
>Cagalli wasn't crying because of Orb, she was crying because of how terrible the show was

I want this all to be true.

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>>13630793

>>13637684
I know that Shinn's VA says something to that extent on the SRWZ interviews/promotional material.

I want you to go look at the SA SRWZ1 LP and then go back to the anime
That isn't the same character.

>>13637706
True.
But it took several goddamn years for it to happen.

>>13636586
They could have ended their own war too if they didn't just let every enemy pilot escape until the last 3 episodes

>>13639974
The Lacus thing was from a convention in NYC back in 2008.

> 11:18 AM: Which role was hardest to play? Lacus Clyne. She didn’t feel the character was quite so realistic, because she’s not so emotional–“not so expressive”–always had to be gentle and nice, with not so much emotional variation.

> 11:28 AM: Any future roles as Lacus Clyne? She doesn’t know.

http://animediet.net/conventions/late-rie-tanaka-panel-liveblog

>>13639979
Indeed.

It is nice to hear her again though.

>>13641251
It also it didn't help that she don't talk like a normal human being.

Most of her dialogue is flowery horseshit.

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>>13643177
"Neither strength alone, or will alone."

AKA Speak softly and carry a big stick.

> (Pictured) SEED's idea's of pacifism.

It's also telling that the animators didn't like Destiny. When you have an animation director calling out the story and complaining about how it's written to reuse as much animation as possible, you know that's just the tip of the iceberg. No wonder they didn't want to create a third series, the staff would have rioted.

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>>13643177
>Most of her dialogue is flowery horseshit.
Everyone's dialogue is flowery horseshit. Take a look at >>13631430

>"Neither strength alone, or will alone."
I've always hated that fucking phrase. It's the epitome of self-righteousness. Take a look at his attitude when he slapped Cagalli. And they expect the audience to side with this asshole?

>>13643535
>And they expect the audience to side with this asshole?
I'd side with him over you, you whining man-child.

>>13643548
Hope you have a fishing permit to go with that bait.

>>13643194

That's pretty much every Gundam's idea of pacisfism. Nobody's actually made it work without adding "But you have to kick ass in a robot too, just without being too much of a dick about it" The actual pacifists, Relena and Marina, were pretty much failures whenever their Gundam boy wasn't there to save them.

>>13634270
>What if the "others" do have a reason for fighting and, yes, perhaps dying?
Then he picks a side. That is all.

>>13643776
Yeah well being a pacifist in a genocidal war where both sides won't stop until the other side is dead doesn't make sense in the first place.

SEED is actually quite scary. Both sides are completely nuts, at least in "first Gundam" they are still talking about peace negotiations. Reminds me of Rwanda, Yugoslavia and Sierra Leone.

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>>13643535
No, seriously though.
Lacus seldomly has a line where she talks like a regular person.

When they're stopping the nukes from hitting the PLANTS, she's rambling on about not letting the swords of light pierce people's future or some fucking horsesehit like that.
>>13643776
That's just the thing, isn't it? Even with SORE DEMO, you have to have a giant robot flying around, and things will conveniently die down once the right person keels over, and everything turns back to normal.

It's getting to have your cake and eat it too

>>13630793
You didn't actually pay attention did you? Once he got good at piloting he stopped killing, preferring to disable his foes' mobile suits. Most of his kills wee accidents or people who just wouldn't stay down once he had them beaten.

Your troll is showing.

Is G gundam a good start? I want that super robo action.

>>13634990
>I WANT TO CHANGE THE EMPIRE FROM WITHIN
>Proceeds to help the Empire win all the time and actively becomes more antagonistic towards his own people

>>13630793
Loran and Bellri come to mind. Mostly because they did the exact same thing.

>>13644395
He has killed more people in the Freedom/Strike Freedom than he ever did in the Strike. One does not bisect a battleship by accident.

>>13633432
Protip: Being involved in a combat situation makes you a combatant

He didn't slash a civilian ship in half, now did he?

>>13635181
The fact that both sides get disabled, not just one.

Kira decides who lives and who dies. Despite battleships are the least dangerous elements in the battlefield, he fucking murders everybody inside because he's motherfucking kira, and he kills anyone who doesn't stay idle while he performs his copypasta lasershow AKA people with a brain who actually loves when he unleashes the beamspam.

Imagine if the grunts were paralyzed by his RPG style super attack and could actually dodge, he would be forced to kill all of them. BUT thanks to the wonders of the enemies sitting idle, he just has to press one button and everybody who's near him, even enemies who are outside his attack range and therefore shouldn't be susceptible to his attack, gets exactly hit in the right place to disable their MS.

But god forbid you actually dodge his copypasta attack, that turns him on and he gets a raging murderboner

>>13644554
>Kira soundtrack is Kira, just as he pleases

>>13644570
*Kira, True to his Emotions

>>13644547
Protip: you CAN be a non-combatant in battleship when you're the ship engineers, maintenance crew, medical bay guy & etc. be it combat situation, or not.
a big ship doesn't work by themselves, but with ALL those crew on board.
you're seriously thinking that ship was run by few people sitting and/or standing on the ship bridges flicking switch & control everything, while all of the internal work done by the ship itself, don't you?

anyway, it's a finest moves & talks of a hypocrite that people will ever seen.
stated 'stop fighting' by disable MS out of commission to avoid kill, later proceed to slash ship & kill anyone on board.

whoever try hard to defend Kira did nothing wrong was a gigantic faggot.

at least >>13634132 have a legit, undeniable point about Kira the hypocrite.

>>13644547
Why can't he just take out the weapons of the ships ?

>>13644695

If you serve on a warship you are a combatant. Even if you aren't manning the stations that actually shoot people, you will be treated as a combatant since you are still contributing to the fight.

>>13644697
>shoot the weapons
>ship tries to ram you and self-destruct

>>13635913
Thank you!

>>13643535
>Everyone's dialogue is flowery horseshit
>"If you just did nothing because you thought it wouldn't help, than you'd end up doing less than nothing. Because nothing would change."

This is the exact problem I have with this quote. He does something and makes the situation worse. Idiot fans would fucking defend this and say: "You should do something even if you make the situation worse." Or "Waiting for a 'genius' plan to go off is not doing nothing. Even if it fails, we work with that." *Facepalm*

You are supposed to make an informed decision, then act. Not the other way around! I'm sick of people like this...

>>13646008

Con't

You make this decision to make the situation around you BETTER!

>>13646008
You should do something even if you make the situation worse.

>>13646008
Waiting for a genius plan to go off is not doing nothing. Even if it fails, we work with that.

>>13646008
What is it Lacus says to Cagalli in the bath?

> First.... Decide. Then do it.

Which is really shitty advice coming from Lacus. Her deciding to steal the Freedom for Kira gave Patrick Zala the excuse needed to eliminate the moderate voices of ZAFT. They even show her father being killed and Lacus crying in Kira's arms in this scene before showing Uzumi's "noble", retarded suicide. I'd almost joke the flashbacks are trying to prove Lacus wrong, since these event made things worse, but I doubt Fukuda meant it like that.

Also, anyone else think Lacus comes off as massively insensitive in that scene?

>>13646025
>>13646030

**Facepalm**

>>13646025
>>13646030

See? What retards.

>>13646050

That would make Lacus' advice in whatever universe (thankfully fictional) she's from meaningless. You know, just other people who are full of shit.

>>13645337
but you know, deep down the truth, that kira was a gigantic hypocrite & did kill non-combatants.

>>13646050
After they take Cagaili from Orb, Kira says "well if you're doing something this stupid, the world's going to hell", or something along those lines

>>13632160
>At that moment, the biggest priority for both of them was stopping Djibril. Did any of them made a lick of effort to do so before it was too late?

Yeah? ZAFT's entire effort was focused on finding/killing Djibril. Kira's side were the only ones trying to slow them down.

>>13646498
I should've been clearer that the "them" I was talking about was Kira and his morons, not Shinn.

>>13646451
>After they take Cagaili from Orb, Kira says "well if you're doing something this stupid, the world's going to hell", or something along those lines

And people think Shinn's more self-righteous. Kira disagrees with his country's policy, a country that has an elected legislature, so he kidnaps it's leader to "talk some sense" into her. Then he engages in terrorism and finally, they make a big deal about how Kira fights for freedom when Durandal unveils the (Scirocco-less) Destiny plan.

>>13646498

Kira's side was trying to keep ZAFT from razzing ORB to the ground. Which Durandal would have done even once Djibril was gone. Talia is the only reason they don't carry on with the attack.

>>13646548
Kira's very self righteous, but when no one can stop you does it matter?

>>13646584
>Kira's side was trying to keep ZAFT from razzing ORB to the ground.
At the expense of everyone else on the planet, for whom Djibril was a more urgent threat than Durandal.

>>13646699
>At the expense of everyone else on the planet, for whom Djibril was a more urgent threat than Durandal.
Not to mention the citizens of the PLANTS Djibril killed with Requiem.

>>13646699
Because I'm sure the Laser on the moon was something Kira and company knew about, and disregarded anyway. You're wrong anyway, Djibril only attacks the PLANTS. No one on Planet Earth is harmed by Djibril's escape.Durandal is the only person that threatens anyone on the planet.

>>13646711
I imagine if ZAFT had actually made finding Djibril their sole and only focus. They could have worked together at the end, but it's obvious Durandal just wants to destroy ORB

>>13646738
>You're wrong anyway, Djibril only attacks the PLANTS.
>No one on Planet Earth is harmed by Djibril's escape.Durandal is the only person that threatens anyone on the planet.
Excuse me, but who was the one who unleashed the Destroy in Europe?

>>13646753
Not to mention the forced labor camps the EA was running.

>>13646753
...That definitely happens before Djibril escapes to the Moon. Like quite a bit before, Shinn doesn't even have the Destiny by then.

>>13646776
That too.

>>13646778
The point is that Kira and his cadre of morons focused all their efforts in intervening in pointless battles and stopping Durandal, rather than do the slightest of efforts to prevent Djibril and LOGOS' campaign of destruction on Earth before it was too late.

Kira and Lacus only care about poor little Orb being damaged. Their concern was never peace or the well-being of Earth as a whole.

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>>13646778

Doesn't remove the fact that Djibril did all that to people on Earth.

If you recall, he only escaped because Destiny's black/white narration made it clear that if he didn't run he'd end up either beaten to death in his own mansion by the mother of all angry mobs, or if he were lucky, arrested by the authorities before the mobs got there. Naturally, he'd escape to the moon where the last remaining diehards of the Alliance had gathered.

While Durandal was the one who exposed Logos and earned Djibril's immediate ire, hence his plan to shoot the PLANTs with a fuckoff laser, the people who destroyed Logos and forced him to run, instead of ordering the cooking of the PLANT government's seat of power Aprilius 1 from the comfort of his mansion basement, while snacking on caviar crackers, were the people of the Eurasian/Atlantic Federation who had quite enough of his compatriots' and his shit.

It's quite a... hopeful proposition to suggest that Djibril would leave the two now-moderate nations alone if he HAD managed to topple the PLANTs. Considering that at that point in time he had the majority of the Alliance's space force under his pinky you can bet that he'd move on to rain death from above over the cities of the Alliance if they let him do so. From the wreckage of the second-half of Destiny the series managed to get that non-main character, non-Orb part of the world story done right, at least.

You're not really supposed to read deeply into that part of the series by then. Yuna denying Djibril's presence is to be taken at exact face value; Durandal knows that the shitface is lying. If you were expecting some heavy-action politics, there is none. As to how, they'd need to go all the way back and show that the Orb government wasn't just the Seirans and their backers VS solo Cagalli on mid lane, but that'll just get in the way of toy sales and showing off the MSes, so fuck the story, let's move on to the fights.

>>13646922

The only Logos thing Kira actually ignored was the cannon thing (the slave camp Zaft didn't even know about until Shinn randomly found it chasing Stella). He was there fighting them over the ocean both times, not siding with Zaft but he was there, and in Berlin he was there before Minerva even was. Heaven's base he couldn't participate in in account of his MS being destroyed and ship being trashed, and then Requiem they couldn't launch in time. And that's all Logos did during the whole show.

>>13647050
>Yuna denying Djibril's presence is to be taken at exact face value; Durandal knows that the shitface is lying.

The point of that was showing how Yuna had no concept of politics and stakes.

Zaft figured Orb was lying when they claimed AA wasn't there too, and Yzak asked the council to try to invade Orb then, but since the AA was one ship and one MS and they far far bigger things to worry about with Spit Break, and it was a few soldiers wanting to invade a nation over personal pride they just let it go and told Orb they believed them, while telling Yzak and co they'd have to recon and deal with it themselves.

All Yuna got out of that was "If we lie and say something isn't here people will have to believe it."

But naturally when Zaft's public enemy number one is there and Zaft has no other concerns of the moment, Zaft would actually call them out and invade anyway, which Yuna was too dumb to know.

>>13647057
>(the slave camp Zaft didn't even know about until Shinn randomly found it chasing Stella

There's more than one. Nations trying to leave the EA were being invaded and put to labor, things Kira ignores. This is world news mate.

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>>13647057
The fallout of Logos' reveal was that they were feeding the arms industry by maintaining war. Durandal linked each and every incident that has ever happened, including the camp(s), the battles, and, by proxy, the anger over the Junius 7 drop, directly to Logos with his little publicity stunt. By saying that they're responsible for all war he also linked them to the First BVW, which, while Durandal is not entirely wrong, it is also 3 years too late to care about the ramifications of hitting civilian colonies with nuclear weapons especially when the war that happened over that was already over.

It wasn't about Logos' direct actions. They never took any. The show -wants- you to link the notion that every major conflict is Logos-fueled and that every deplorable Alliance soldier is under their pay because that is how the story is. As far as Destiny is concerned Logos is responsible for almost every tragedy that has happened in '70s CE, if not by manipulation of their lackeys in the national militaries, then by proxy that these tragedies happened during those wars that their lackeys actively stoked, on Logos' orders.

>>13647079
Well, there was that, but the original notion by another anon was that Djibril wouldn't have turned on Earth, so ZAFT's "unwarranted" assault on Orb was solely because they wanted to destroy Orb... for some reason.

Which is pretty silly as far as I can see, since Djibril outright states before the Berlin attack that he's unleashing the Destroy against the EuraFed. in allied territory because they gave up the war and the AtlanFed's stupid World Security Treaty and were in the process of making peace with the PLANTs.

Someone like that wouldn't "leave Earth alone". He had planned to go up to the Moon all along, and Yuna played straight into his hands in moving Orb up as a delaying force. And if he had successfully decapitated ZAFT with Requiem, the now-moderate Atlantic/Eurasian Feds. and restored Orb would have been next.

>>13647392
>And if he had successfully decapitated ZAFT with Requiem, the now-moderate Atlantic/Eurasian Feds. and restored Orb would have been next.

Actually by all indications Djbril really would have left and any remaining Earth nations alone, provided they didn't ally with Zaft. He burned Berlin because they gave up the war and wanted to make nice with Zaft and were buying into Durandal being a great guy which he wouldn't tolerate and believed was all a farce (interesting btw that Djbril repeatedly insists Durandal can't possibly be going his heroic campaign purely out of a desire to help earth and he must have some endgame but he dies before anything comes of this)

But once Zaft was done he wasn't gonna burn his own people for shits and giggles. He just didn't want them being friends with Zaft. In fact he was willing to team up with Kira and Lacus to get Durandal, but Lacus turned him down.

>>13647105

Was it? Because Djbril had everything well covered up and in hand until after Destroy when Durandal hijacked his network and he couldn't cut him out. Durandal never raided the labor camps. Shinn and Minerva took out one, which only happened because Neo took the bases Windams for an ambush to try to take the ship out, and then Stella disobeyed orders to charge in and then accidentally lead Shinn to the base.

Prior to Lacus going up to Space the best news AA could get was the rare message from Miliaria and Meer concerts on TV.

>>13647426
Well, Shinn finds one completely by accident, and then there's the Lohengrin Gate where they're using slave labor from a nearby village to help them make it.

It's not a concept the EA is above doing.

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>>13647421
>>13647421
>Djbril really would have left and any remaining Earth nations alone, provided they didn't ally with Zaft

That's really the issue, isn't it? Today it's not being allies with ZAFT. What's for tomorrow then?

We're never shown what the schism has done to the EA, but if simply withdrawing from battle to talk to ZAFT is enough for him to precipitate a war crime just a few rungs short of genocide - on his own former allies, no less - then, assuming a hypothetical case that Djibril succeeds at Requeim, with orbital control under his hands, I find it quite impossible that he's going to give any sort of leniency to the moderates running the ground government at that point in time, who also want his head for leading the whole lot of them on a round chain of a worthless second war.

He's not batshit insane, but he's quite close to the mark; dear boy Azrael was wonderfully well-behaved and quite justified by comparison, especially since, Logos' Gundam theft aside, on Djibril's orders the EA launched a nuclear attack flimsily justified by visual association, knowing that the public would fall straight for it, DESPITE knowing that the GINNs at J7 were not affiliated with ZAFT. Throughout the series he continues throwing punches after moving first and it is never once shown that his aversion against Durandal was motivated above anything beyond his own cowardice in the fact that, Durandal alluded to having dealings with Logos before, was going to ruin the group's continued control of the Earth Sphere.

Oh, he's not going to burn the entire planet, that much we agree on. But if his best idea of bringing an unwilling ally back into line is to attack their civilian population to "teach them a lesson" rather than arranging for an assassination of their leaders to be replaced with pro-Logos ones, I doubt the narcissistic he can resist the allure of using Requiem to "teach them (the now-moderates in this hypothetical situation) a lesson".

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>>13646548
To be absolutely fair, she was being married into a sham wedding.

But on the note, I have to wonder how the hell she ended up in that relationship in the first place, and just didn't say no.
One thing that always bothered me about Orb is that they're always going on about Loyalty, Orders and Duty. To be fair, they don't really have much of a choice most of the time.

But at the same time, we'll use these same themes to show why other people are moronic attack dogs without any thought for themselves.

When Djibril showed up in Orb to hide, that would have been the perfect time to stage a coup and to throw the Seirans out. Nobody there likes them, and they're sitting down literally willing to throw the country into another battle in order to protect this one guy. Wouldn't now have been the perfect time to kick them out since the EA is powerless, and can't use their super weapon without this guy?

>>13646436
Based on your faulty logic, sure.

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>>13649410
No, everyone sits down and goes "grrr, I hate this...but duty!" Until Cagaili shows up...and rouses up the troops for battle. Hey, what happened to trying to avoid the fighting? Did we all forget about Djibril?
This would have been great if it were just a pretense to get into Orb, but Djibril escapes and goes on to blast 4 million people out of the sky, like he said he would. Nobody tries to call off the battle, and Cagaili only goes searching for the guy after she gets kicked off the battlefield.

When you think about it, Djibril almost destroyed ZAFT and the PLANTS with it in one fell swoop! Who would have taken responsibility for letting it to get that far?
We're supposed to see ZAFT as the badguys here, but when you think about it, are they REALLY the badguys here? It's literally a life or death situation for them. For them to do nothing would have been suicide.


I mean, the meta-reason is that this was just an excuse to have Strike Freedom and I-Justice get to beat up Legend and Destiny, because we can't have them fighting grunts only, but it shouldn't be that obvious when you look between the lines a little.
This entire battle is a big waste of everyone's time

>>13646922
Except they didn't know about any Forced Labor Camps. ZAFT didn't know about them, NO one did except the EA...the people who set them up.

Eh, someone already covered this. They didn't just care about ORB, though certainly it was their biggest concern.

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>>13649442
>Except they didn't know about any Forced Labor Camps. ZAFT didn't know about them, NO one did except the EA...the people who set them up.
See

>>13632160

Look at the picture. This isn't the first time the EA used concentration camps. They did it all through the last war and the people were sick of it. They knew the EA would pull it's shit again with this second war.

These are problems Kira and Co. don't care about. After all, fuck the rest of the world because ORB preaches about not attacking other nations (except when they do, and Cagalli monologues about how ORB's ideals will save the world). And during Destiny, they didn't care about anything other than getting ORB out of the war.

It's absolutely hilarious that one of Destiny's producers said the following

> The North American market is difficult. Gundam depicts war through the eyes of characters like Amuro and Kira, who are against fighting. These types of characters and the cruelty of war lend themselves to anti-war themes. But a protagonist like Amuro isn't acceptable in the North American market. It has to be a type of character who fights for his country. If we end up creating a Gundam for the North American market, it will be entirely different from the anti-war Gundam of Japan. I doubt if we could call that Gundam.

When all Kira does is fight for his country in Destiny.

>>13647057
>He was there fighting them over the ocean both times, not siding with Zaft but he was there,
That intervention cut against both ZAFT and the EA. Kira's priority was NEVER, at any point, to stop Djibril. They never cared about Logos and never did a fucking thing to stop them because all their efforts were against Durandal. That's even in the aftermath of Requiem's first shot: the people in the Archangel just go "boo hoo how tragic" and IMMEDIATELY after, they go back to get obsessed with Durandal.

>>13630820

He grew up.

>>13631337

Most slappable face of any gundam protag?

>>13649699
>> The North American market is difficult. Gundam depicts war through the eyes of characters like Amuro and Kira, who are against fighting. These types of characters and the cruelty of war lend themselves to anti-war themes. But a protagonist like Amuro isn't acceptable in the North American market. It has to be a type of character who fights for his country. If we end up creating a Gundam for the North American market, it will be entirely different from the anti-war Gundam of Japan. I doubt if we could call that Gundam.


Huh he's right. It's why America has a hard on for IBO. Mikazuki is no nonsense stone cold killer.

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>>13649699
>If we end up creating a Gundam for the North American market, it will be entirely different from the anti-war Gundam of Japan. I doubt if we could call that Gundam.
From an extremely cynical perspective, that's exactly what they did with Kira (and SEED in general). It's so utterly separated from what the UC did it couldn't, as this producer said, possibly be called Gundam.

By the way, the text at the sides is this quote. You know, one of Kira's most douchebag moments of the whole series, discussed at length in this very thread (>>13634814, >>13634861, >>13635945, >>13635954, >>13637237, >>13646008).

>>13639217

>Foreign nation invades your country
>Native populace massacred
>Title of your nation is stripped
>Natives treated as a sub human species
>Literally no way of gaining any sort of power within the regime due to not being a pure blood
>"I'm going to change the Empire from within"

Sorry it was just plain delusion, the Empire didn't even want him, they were simply forced to use Suzaku as a counter measure to Zero's infamy, if Zero had been killed, Suzaku would have been stripped of his rank straight away.

>>13649699
Talia literally says it's not surprising Athrun doesn't know about it. As in it's a recent development and that's as of what, right before Destroy is launched on Berlin? The same Berlin they interjected in Despite there being no actual ORB presence at all anywhere near?

>And during Destiny, they didn't care about anything other than getting ORB out of the war.

Except for that time that they fought the Destroy. Or saved the Minerva's bridge crew from certain death. Sure, that was their main goal...but they didn't ignore everything to pursue it.

>>13649420
>are they REALLY the badguys here?
Yes.
Maybe they should have intercepted Djibril in orbit instead of trying to steamroll Orb.

Here's a thought. With Kira "disabling" battleships, who is going to pick up the mobile suits he's disabled?

>>13649928
>Except for that time that they fought the Destroy.
And made everything worse in the process.

>Sure, that was their main goal...but they didn't ignore everything to pursue it.
Too little, too late. Their top priority should've been to stop Djibril, as they were the main warmongering faction at that stage.

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>>13649419
> based on faulty logic
> faulty logic
> faulty
that was not faulty logic to begin with.
you have non-combatant in ship, in all situations & you simply label them as 'combatants'. that's where your faulty logic appeared.
google out non-combatant meaning & slap those correct info into your faulty logic. i did mention but you're adamant about it.

i'm not bias or anything because majority people say kira is bad, but did go through series to realize the flaws & hypocrite of kira doings.
& not to mention Fukuda & Morosawa's bad job as well.

anyway i'm out of this thread while laughing off your 'kira did nothing wrong' policies.

>>13650096
And made everything worse in the process.

Um...what? How the hell did they do that? By sending Cagalli and people out to physically rescue people when no one else could?

>Too little, too late. Their top priority should've been to stop Djibril

Um.No... they only ever really wanted to protect ORB. They don't really have to do anything else if they don't want too.

>>13650049
>>13650049
You didn't get the /m/emo? Once you're "disabled", you're saved. So long as you're not firing at Kira, you're "saved".

>>13650222
By your logic nobody in naval combat can shoot anybody else. What, do you just let a battleship sit there and shoot you to death because the guy maintaining the engine isn't actively firing the guns?

>>13649831
Yeah, now that you mention it, Suzaku only got where he did because he had a massive leg up due to his connections to royalty (Euphie). Without her, they would have been content to leave him in his obscure little experimental unit and accept help from him via Lloyd if they were ever in a jam.

And in season 2, it's the same story. He gets his position as a knight as a reward for helping the Emperor with his personal errand brainwash Lelouche and keeping mum about Geass. Which he only got because Chuck was on the cusp of a plan that would render all of it irrelevant.

And even with his position he's basically just a lackey. He never achieves any kind of social reform. Maybe he thought he could influence the emperor, but that highlights his inability to recognise the corruption of the regime, given that it wouldn't have ever happened.

>>13646584
>Kira's side was trying to keep ZAFT from razzing ORB to the ground. Which Durandal would have done even once Djibril was gone.
What exactly is your basis for thinking this? ZAFT straight up just ask to be handed the war criminal, and Orb repeatedly refuses to acknowledge that they have him. So they go in, and it is stressed that they're only there for Djibril. The only reason Orb is in danger in the first place is because its leaders insisted on harbouring an international fugitive and causing the country itself to get caught up in the crossfire. Kira assumes that they're invading Orb outright in order to conquer it because they're big meanies.

>>13653337
You're talking about the same guy who was surprised ZAFT would go after him after he has attacked their troops, as well as attacking a spaceport while his girlfriend stole a shuttle, in order to protect enemy combatants. Kira, quite frankly, is supposed to be an adult at this point but quite frankly he's as childish as Kio (and at least Kio can use his age as an excuse). Kira's supposed to be so mature he's worthy of the high military rankings literally handed to him by his sister and GF.

Frankly, Uso should take Kira over his leg and give him a spanking. The guy and his half-assed pacifism is an embarrassment.

>>13653485
His behaviour can kind of make sense if you assume he's just delegated all his higher mental functions to Lacus after his stress induced breakdown midway through SEED.

I'm not too familiar with Victory, but I do know that Tobia from Crossbone is a better executed pacifist pilot, in that he acknowledges it to be both Naïve and actively dangerous, since he's handicapping himself by avoiding simply killing, but that he would prefer to avoid taking a life if at all possible. Though he's quite capable of doing it anyway if absolutely necessary. It's treated as more of a personal commitment than an ideal.

Though if Uso is a pacifist he can't be a very good one, considering his monstrously high kill count.

>>13653497
>Though if Uso is a pacifist he can't be a very good one, considering his monstrously high kill count.

> Pacifism: the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means.

Uso isn't a pacifist. He wanted to avoid kill shots in the beginning but that nonsense was quickly knocked out of him by the war and his allies. The kid goes through major trauma and comes out of the war a more mature person than Kira ever was, and Uso's only 13.

As for Kira, I like to assume either he suffered brain damage after the Aegis blew up or he was so broken by the event he retreated into himself. The Kira Yamato we see after that is simply a heroic mask he hides behind rather than deal with the harsh realities of life.

>>13653337
>So they go in, and it is stressed that they're only there for Djibril.

Not him, but it's never stressed, and people just assume that because Zaft is usually resonable up until the Destiny Plan is rolled out. But they never say. In fact the Zaft commander in the sub does say they're overall goal is to take Orb now, and gets annoyed that they nearly captured the main building before Cagalli's group showed up. They start out by leveling government buildings, including the underground shelter which had mostly the workers of Seiran's house in it, and then just start blowing shit up.

Shinn specifically goes out to start wrecking Orb, and then to destroy Kira again. He never even attempts to break past him to find Djbril, and he could have easily ditched Cagalli early on instead of taking his time wrecking her.

After Djbril leaves Talia calls off the attack, and Durandal claims he's ok with that, but he also clearly isn't please they lost to the Orb forces and doesn't look happy afterwards.

>>13653522
>Uso isn't a pacifist. He wanted to avoid kill shots in the beginning but that nonsense was quickly knocked out of him by the war and his allies. The kid goes through major trauma and comes out of the war a more mature person than Kira ever was, and Uso's only 13.
Ah, something like that was on my mind. Though I was thinking of Amuro, who struggles with fighting and killing before coming to terms with and settling into his place as a soldier (something that never happens to Kira). And as you say, Uso is older.

>>13653528
>and Durandal claims he's ok with that, but he also clearly isn't please they lost to the Orb forces and doesn't look happy afterwards.
Right, it must have been entirely about saving face and have nothing to do with his perfect scapegoat getting away? Or that said scapegoat could and did go on to rally his forces and destroy a PLANT.

You make it sound like ZAFT was just attacking anything willy nilly, rather than fighting Orb forces that for some reason chose to stage their defence in built up areas. Moreover, those main buildings contain the government in charge. You know, the ones that initiated and continued this fight.

Y'know, after that post I got to thinking about this, and I realised that if the op with Djibril had succeeded Durandal could totally have gotten his men to hold onto Orb afterward if he'd wanted to, simply by saying : "Well, the entire government is corrupt and stupid as hell, so we'll need to hold things down here for now." And he'd have had little to no opposition because, whatever his motivations, he'd have been right.

>>13653528
> but it's never stressed, and people just assume that
Isn't it sort of implicit in the fact that they just ask for him first? I mean, sure, it's an entirely reasonable proposition that it was a ruse to take Orb, but the problem is that if it was then it banks on the Orb government flat out denying the patent truth to give ZAFT an excuse, which is a move so unbelievably stupid that there's no way in hell you could plan for it.

>>13653542
*younger*

>>13653567
>Y'know, after that post I got to thinking about this, and I realised that if the op with Djibril had succeeded Durandal could totally have gotten his men to hold onto Orb afterward if he'd wanted to, simply by saying : "Well, the entire government is corrupt and stupid as hell, so we'll need to hold things down here for now." And he'd have had little to no opposition because, whatever his motivations, he'd have been right.

That's actually a very good point. He had the world eating out of his hand at that time, so if he had just said "Orb is corrupt. It's leaders are hypocrites hiding behind ideals they break whenever it's convenient. They got involved in this war and even hid the man who unleashed the monster that destroyed Berlin. It's leader, Ms. Athha, has been thoughouly shown to be incompetent as well as having connections to the terrorists who attacked both ZAFT and the EA during this war in order to get ORB to break it's alliance with the EA. We cannot leave these people to suffer such faulty leadership."

>>13653567
>Moreover, those main buildings contain the government in charge. You know, the ones that initiated and continued this fight.

Funny thing is, that's also exactly where Djbril would be likely to be. Assuming they actually killed him during the raid, how would they possibly confirm it without just taking the whole country and sifting through the rubble?

>>13635736
I really wish they could've done more with Kio he had the perfect setup to be interesting

But the reason Kio ended up that way was to be a contrast to Flit and show the consequences of his decisions and the results of being unable to let go of hate,Though there could've been two ways to go with Kio's character. The one we got and another where he progressively became even more jaded and darker than Flit due to having people around him die, growing up in a war-conscious society and being brought up on war simulators then they cold've had him go full genocide mode on the Vegan's and distance himself emotionally from people,then it would've served as a revelation to Flit and we could've seen him get a redemption arc or something then try and bring his grandson back from the edge and probably end up killing him to do it

>>13653838
The one thing I get with Kio is it shows how far Flit has fallen. In the first generation, young Flit was horrified Desil, a small child, treated war like a game. Come third gen, old Flit used video games to try and turn his grandson into a Vegan murdering machine. It really works to show how much Flit's desire to destroy the Vegan has taken over him, to the point he's actively trying to turn his grandson into a copy of Yurin's killer.

Also, AGE-FX > Strike Freedom.

Thats a problem for Kira with his do-gooder behavior has no intent backing any country If there a group of armed people with only little weapons available to overthrow there dictator with many resources of army then Kira show up and plast them everyone with no regret and leave the armed group with no resources available left. Thats pure nonsense of his heroic behavior act.

>>13653880
Age-FX - too green.

Remember kids, when the EA issues demands of Orb and then steamrolls them immediately, they're the bad guys.

When ZAFT does it they're fucking heroes.

Shit would've been better if Kira actually struggled to be a pacifist. Handing him a machine with an aimbot that hits with pinpoint accuracy the limbs and flying systems of anything piloted by a grunt was such a huge bullshit, and he only goes murder mode when he faces pilots who can actually dodge his aimbot.

>>13653880
I'd agree with you if not for the fact that Kio is such a absolutely nothing character with no drive or convictions of his own really, and no clear goal of what he's wants to do. I get the idea that he's supposed to be the one that breaks "the cycle", but he's got absolutely nothing going on for him. It don't help that his "rival" character was his dad's, and doesn't carea bout him.

Yes, I get that genocide is bad. I know that Grandpa Flit shouldn't be trying to eliminate all of the Vegans. The issue I have with Kio is besides his utter lack of personality, he comes to his conclusion in such a hackeyed way, that I can't really come to care, and his idea of fighting his own battle his own way is literally getting the way of everyone else while they're trying to stop the Vegans from killing everyone.

Kio's a character that just absorbs everything that other characters tell him, and not in a way that it seems like they're influencing him, but just because he has that little of a character about him. Shalunala goes on about the evils of the Earth Federation, while she's betraying everyone for money, and Kio asks the viewer to give a shit. Girarad betrays everyone for the Vegans (and seeing as her rank increased, then YEAH, she actually took that fucking promotion), and instead of taking her out of the battle, he flies in the way trying to get everyone to stop while she's shooting at everyone.

I'm sure if Old Man Vegan managed to convince him that the Earth was evil, he would have signed up right then and there.

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>>13650031
I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm pretty sure a mass driver doesn't have one set trajectory. That still a pretty wide area to cover.

But on that note, why should Orb be given leniency when they're harboring a Logos member and lying about it?
>And made everything worse in the process.
Outside of the "politics" behind killing Stella, they were pretty much in the right to show up there. Destroy Gundam had pretty much mowed through all of ZAFT with little effort.

>>13653528
>Shinn specifically goes out to start wrecking Orb,
He doesn't even make it to the island, he was fighting mobile suits the whole time.

>>13635736
I don't know, I liked Asem's first arc of trying to climb out of his father's shadow/the concept that you have to have superpowers to be a competent pilot a lot.

But the thing about Gen 3 of AGE, is that it has to put all the other characters out of the way so it can have Kio jump in the pilot seat. Also, I think he was supposed to be keeping neutral because of the idea that there were Federation conspirators in the mix.
I'm not saying it's an good excuse though.

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i thought this thread gone when it was at the bottom of thread catalog... never mind, just passing through & laugh at you again.

>>13650585
your thoughts:
> combatant & non-combatant grouped as 'COMBATANTS' (your logic)
> kira slashed ship into half, kill everyone aboard the ship
> they are 'ALL COMBATANTS', no matter who on board, kira is JUSTIFIED of doing so. (your logic)
> he's not a hypocrite because "based on your faulty logic" (your logic, again)

my thoughts: (general logic basis)
> there's combatant & non-combatant in ship. (general logic)
> kira could disable the ship, like what he did to any encountered MS & ships. but instead, he slashed into half & exploded, kill anyone inside.
> war is an UNDENIABLE KILLING BUSINESS, anything could happen when it's on. choices & tactics is on the people's hand in war time. CASUALTY DEFINITELY ENSUED & UNAVOIDABLE. (general logic)
> kira could disable the ship by default because his "no-kill" policy. while disabling ship, there WILL BE CASUALTIES in that ship (minor explosion, unknown chained explosion in ship corridor, flying 'bullets' made of ship fragment, etc. etc. etc.) when the beam hit. be it combatants or non-combatants. (general logic, again)
> instead, he gone 100% casualties on that ship, COMBATANTS & NON-COMBATANTS dead inside the ship explosion. (result yielded by kira's work)
> disabled MS to keep pilot alive, but proceed 100% casualties on the ship. "no-kill" policy but such action contradict his policy.
> kira thought his hands was "clean" after all those battle he done because "HUUUR MUH PACIFISM". turn a blind eye for things that actual happened in war.
> he's a gigantic fucktard hypocrite because contradiction of "no-kill" policy. (gathered general logic & info)

no sure bait, tl;dr or anything through your reply post so far.
if you did, you win. if you didn't, you're same as kira.
no matter who win, Kira still a proven hypocrite. it's undeniable.

i'm done with this laughing things, & away i gone.

>>13654646
I'd say there's a pretty big difference between forcing someone to join you at gunpoint, and asking a country that is already your enemy to please hand over that one war criminal or we'll take him back.

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The very person who got me into Gundam was obsessed with Seed Destiny. She had posters of Kira all over her room.

I remember watching the UC stuff, loving it and thinking I'd finally have something to talk to with a chick. Turns out the only Gundam shows she remotely cared about were Seed and Seed Destiny.

>>13655707
Kira may not want to kill, but he only is trying to keep casualties down as low as he possibly can.

> Kills the entire crew of a ship.

What would that ship's crew be anyway? An Iowa-class battleship is helmed by 85-110 crewmen, the Yamato had over 200... The only thing I can say is that whatever the number, Kira has killed far more people under Lacus's influence than he did Flay's.

>>13656226
Sorry, got my numbers mixed up. The Yamato had 2700 crewmen, of which only about 10% survived.

>>13655707
Personal logic or justification doesn't matter, legally speaking all uniformed military personnel except medical and religious are considered combatants.

That said, cutting a ship in half is out of character for Kira.

Also, nowhere does Kira claim to never kill or declare that he won't kill. He avoids it when he can, which is almost always, and says that killing is bad.

>>13655797
Its okay anon judging by her taste she wasn't wife material.

>>13655797
Could be worse. She could be a Flay Allster and blow you dry as long as you keep killing Coordinators. Actually it could be a good thing if you are into that.

>>13656452
He does declare that he won't kill, when arguing with Athrun after his first intervention.

>>13656584
So in other words, after he already has blood on his hands.

>>13656584
I don't recall that happening. I know there's a part where he says he doesn't want to fight, and a part where he says he knows his hands are bloody.

>>13655797
Did you watch SEED or SEED Destiny yourself, or did you just decide you didn't like them without even trying them? You seem pretty snide about it, so...

>>13656584

He says he doesn't want to kill, not that he never does and is bloodless. Athrun pretty much accuses him of thinking he's this holier than everyone bloodless hero and Kira denies it saying he's well aware he's killed before.

>>13657471
>Athrun pretty much accuses him of thinking he's this holier than everyone bloodless hero
Not quite. Kira gives him the self righteous killing is bad speech, and Athrun points out that this is rich coming from a man who has personally killed quite a lot of people. Kira's response is that he doesn't want to ever kill anyone again. Not that not wanting to stops him, mind. But you'd think that a character with such a strong anti killing bent as to violently attack others for doing so would at least act like he gave a shit whenever he voided his own principles, which he doesn't. In fact, he never even acknowledges these instances. This is the reason people call him a hypocrite.

>>13631337
To stop casualties that result from battles that don't involve the combatants, ie civies and not letting every place become a warzone.

>>13659494
Something something, Kira only kills when necessary, yadda yadda doesn't take lives needlessly, bullshit bullshit he'll kill a few to save the many, hypocrisy hypocrisy needs of the many outweigh the needs outweigh the needs of the few.

And them Requiem happens, a few million civies die and Kira goes "how tragic, now let's get Durandal."

>>13659494
Uh. What, he never attacks anyone because they kill people.Perhaps Athrun back on the Islands, but that's for Tolle's death implicitly, vengeance solely.

>>13659494
>a character with such a strong anti killing bent as to violently attack others for doing so
He really doesn't. Besides the Destroy in Berlin, I don't recall him ever taking action except for his own interests.

>>13659866
Not what I meant. He attacks people for fighting. Sometimes for the heinous crime of attempting to defend themselves by fighting.

>>13659871
He attacks the ZAFT forces for defending themselves against Orb, and also attacks Orb forces for attacking their new enemy, ZAFT. And this is in his first proper engagement in the series.

>I don't recall him ever taking action except for his own interests.
Yes, you are correct in your recollection. He does act in his own self centered interests, namely those of himself and those he knows and has a stake in. However, despite this in doing so he seems to view himself as acting as some unquestionable moral agent arbitrating the conflict, deciding what is and is not right. He's banging on about right and wrong, but he's still just attacking every other group for pursuing their own interests militarily, even if those interests are entirely reasonable (early Destiny ZAFT), purely because he feels it's unnaceptable for people to fight, unless he's doing it to get Lacus ahead, in which case he has no issue with it.

>>13660281
If you are referring to the interventions between the Orb Fleet and the Minerva, that was done at the request of Cagalli.

Kira does not view himself as the unquestionable side of right, he even muses with Athrun at one point that they might be doing the wrong thing. I don't know where the reputation for pushing his opinions on everyone comes from, besides the two or so debate/duels, he doesn't talk during combat.

>>13660308
>Kira does not view himself as the unquestionable side of right
He doubts himself exactly once, then immediately asks Lacus to reassure him he's right with some honeyed words, which she does. He tells Athrun he's 'either with them or against them' in their mad little crusade.

>I don't know where the reputation for pushing his opinions on everyone comes from, besides the two or so debate/duels, he doesn't talk during combat.
No, but when he does talk (in or out of combat) it's incredibly conceited and self righteous, or myopic and moronic (CAGALLI IS CRYING).

His reputation comes as much from his actions as his words. Like attacking literally every other faction in the war, then acting shocked and appalled when one of them goes after them, assuming that it could only be a secret conspiracy.

Sometimes I feel we shouldn't be arguing about Kira, because as insufferable as he is, he's ultimately just a patsy for Lacus. It's her ideals and orders he follows, and her political goals he pursues. And she's even worse than him, but she's not particularly active in the story by herself, instead acting through others, so she has less presence to discuss.

>>13660410
I remember him doubting what they were doing more than once but I can't cite anything else off the top of my head.

The secret conspiracy suspicions were rooted in the assassination attempt, which happened long before he entered the war. And I don't remember him being shocked that Zaft went after them. The only one I remember commenting as to why Angel Down was happening was Athrun, and it was more him being conflicted.

I wouldn't even say that Lacus' ideals or orders guide him. He pretty much only ever moves to protect his friends. Kira didn't really care about the rest of the world's problems.

>>13660543
Regarding Angel Down I'll admit that I can't remember whether or not Kira specifically acted surprised, but I know for certain that several of the Archangel faction expressed said surprise. I'm slightly more sure that it was Kira remarking that the operation must be Durandal trying to sneakily dispose of them, as if they weren't a legitimate military target.

>I wouldn't even say that Lacus' ideals or orders guide him
Watch any scene in Destiny with both of them in it.

>He pretty much only ever moves to protect his friends
Also not true, otherwise he would have been content to sit and vegetate after he got Cagalli back. Instead they cruise around and pick a few fights, for one reason or another.

>Kira didn't really care about the rest of the world's problems.
Objectively true, but he often acts like he does, hence the source of some of the irritation surrounding him.

>>13637666
Didn't Fukuda also insult Shinn and Lunamaria's VAs?

>>13639217
It's true Lelouch held no delusion about how people and the state of the world.

Also getting over emotional and then fucking up because he can't pay attention to what's going on around him and can't into politics.

>>13662375
When the Va's announced their engagement, Fukuda said something like "I knew Maaya was close to someone, but I never thought it was Suzumura." People took it as Fukuda saying she was too good for Suzumura. People called Fukuda out, where his wished them all the best.

Back on topic, the problem is WHO Kira fights for, Orb and Lacus. Kira fights for hypocrites, who are championed by narrative unaware of what the real world implications would be. Fukuda just wants to make shit entertaining, so we're expected to watch SEED and accept that these things are good and noble.

>>13662462
>narrative unaware of what the real world implications would be
>so we're expected to watch SEED and accept that these things are good and noble.
There's also the additional layer that the theme they ended up going with was 'question authority instead of assuming what they say is right', which of course casts the Archangel crew in a very unfavourable light if you do it. The irony is palpable.

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>>13630820

>>13662228

Murrue is the only one surprised that Zaft choose then to attack them, considering Durandal just said Logos was his target she probably figured they were in the clear so long as they stayed out of Zaft's way from then on.

Kira isn't remotely surprised, but he seems to think Durandal specifically set up this attack to get footage of them wrecking Zaft's forces so he can go on TV and claim their part of Logos, which is why he won't let anyone help him and won't let AA killshot anyone.

>>13663292
>Kira isn't remotely surprised, but he seems to think Durandal specifically set up this attack to get footage of them wrecking Zaft's forces so he can go on TV and claim their part of Logos
Which is dumb, something Kira would realise if he had an ounce of self awareness in his body. ZAFT doesn't have to frame them for attacking ZAFT, because they've *already* attacked ZAFT. At this point they're wanted international terrorists, so the notion that Durandal would need to frame them is laughable.

>considering Durandal just said Logos was his target she probably figured they were in the clear so long as they stayed out of Zaft's way from then on.
This is also dumb. She thinks they can get off scot free with attacking a military force because ZAFT has other, more important enemies? Why would someone as experienced as her think that? Why would anyone over the age of six think that?

Kira is often unfairly misattributed with actions or lines from other members of his group, but this is only because they all move in step to the same (insane) beat.

>>13663292
>which is why he won't let anyone help him and won't let AA killshot anyone.
Actually that was Murrue's decision. Cagaili and the Orb troops wanted to head out, and she said no for that reason.

>>13663313
>Why would someone as experienced as her think that? Why would anyone over the age of six think that?
Because Fukuda either doesn't understand how the real world works or he doesn't think it would be exciting, Remember, when SEED originally aired Gunota wrote it off as kiddie (it was the AGE of it's day. except popular with casuals.)

>>13662462
>Kira fights for hypocrites

Everyone is Hypocrites, literally everyone. Lacus and the bunch aren't any worse then anyone else. They're better in general because they don't have any genocide on their hands really.

>>13663313
>ZAFT doesn't have to frame them for attacking ZAFT

But he'd need to frame them as part of LOGOS. Who Durandal made a world wide spiel about being the real enemy and focusing on them. He cut them out of the Destroy footage likely for the expressed purpose of killing off any legit claim to being good guys they had in preparation for such a plan.

>At this point they're wanted international terrorists

That's not even true, I don't think the Archangel's existence is even recognized officially. Certainly we're never given any implication that they're wanted in any official capacity.

>This is also dumb

Except it's not, the Archangel is a minute threat, and one that Durandal knows won't directly engage him. Plus on top of the assassination attempt, scrubbing them from Berlin... it's a damned good working theory that the only reason ZAFT is there is to get them out of the way.

>>13663351
It's Kira's actually, he tells them to get the hell out of there and not to shoot at them IIRC.

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>Okay guys we gotta make sure not to kill any of the enemy pilots
>Yeah we gotta show them peace is the answer
>okay fuck this is bad if we cant kill them why not just allahu ackbar them
>no we must not harm any of them
>OH SHIT ITS HERRO IN WING ZERO
>Proceeds to murder every enemy pilot in his way


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhejoQwgJ1I

>>13663313
>This is also dumb. She thinks they can get off scot free with attacking a military force because ZAFT has other, more important enemies? Why would someone as experienced as her think that? Why would anyone over the age of six think that?

Because that's basically what happened in Seed. Once EA had NJC data both sides ignored the TSA until they actively appeared in their battles, and when the war was over they were all allowed to go about their business despite them attacking EA and Zaft repeatedly. They didn't have to pay for anything.

Not that strange for them to think "Well if the EA Zaft war is over they'll just let us go like last time."

>>13663506
Then why is the Archangel hidden in a secret dock and some people (Athrun, Murrue) are shown to be living under assumed names in Orb? I doubt the EA would overlook a missing battleship like that, and soldiers who desert during a time of war risk being executed if they are brought before a court martial. Same with ZAFT, who should be looking for the MS Lacus stole from them.

>>13663667
>who should be looking for the MS Lacus stole from them
It wouldn't be unreasonable for them to have written it off as being destroyed by Genesis.

>>13663497
Heero is best waifu